Byron Au Yong Composes a New Kind of Leadership | Art Restart

Description

For more than two decades, composer and educator Byron Au Yong has created music that bridges performance, ritual and activism. His highly collaborative works have been presented by such varied institutions as the Seattle Symphony, BAM, the Smithsonian, the American Conservatory Theater and Nashville Opera. Among his many large-scale projects is his long partnership with writer and rapper Aaron Jafferis, with whom he created the “liberation trilogy”: “Stuck Elevator,” “The Ones” and “Activist Songbook.”

Byron is also Associate Professor and Director of Arts Leadership at Seattle University, where he’s reimagining arts education as a space of equity, imagination and community. His teaching encourages artists to consider leading beyond or outside institutions and to learn from one another as collaborators in liberation. His many honors include a Creative Capital Award, a Doris Duke Building Demand for the Arts Grant and a Sundance Institute/Time Warner Foundation Fellowship.

In this interview, Byron reflects on how his art and teaching are both rooted in listening, whether it’s listening through the feet to the language of trees to compose his newest work or listening deeply to students and collaborators to imagine new, more equitable forms of leadership.

https://byronauyong.com/

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Transcription

Speaker #0
There are a number of things that we agreed upon early on, like how we would shepherd students through a two-year MFA. And one is that we would encourage them to continually make things and to open possibilities rather than direct them into certain positions.
Speaker #1
Hello and welcome to Art Restart, where we learn from artists who, wherever they work, whatever they make. are shaking up the status quo in their fields and in their communities. I'm Pierre Carlo Talenti, the producer and editor of this podcast, which is brought to you by the Thomas S. Keenan Institute for the Arts at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. In this episode, we'll be speaking with composer Byron O. Young. For more than two decades, Byron has created music that bridges performance, ritual, and activism. His highly collaborative works have been presented by such varied institutions as the Seattle Symphony, BAM, the Smithsonian, and the American Conservatory Theater. Among his many large-scale projects is his long partnership with writer and rapper Aaron Jafaris, with whom he created the Liberation Trilogy, which includes Stuck Elevator, The Ones, and Activist Songbook. I was particularly excited to speak with Byron because in addition to his composing work, he's also Associate Professor and Director of Arts Leadership at Seattle University. In an era when a lot of assumptions about arts institutions are being overturned, I really wanted to know what he thought a 21st century arts leader needs to be. I knew he'd recently returned from his second residency at Bloedel Reserve in Puget Sound. So I started off by asking him what he was working on while he was there.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so I'm working on a musical requiem called Forest Aeternum. So if you, so the first or one of the lyrics in the Catholic mass, requiem mass is Requiem Aeternum. And during my first residency there in 2022, like after the first day, I realized it because I went in thinking the project was called Forest Requiem. Requiem, I realized, oh no, it can't be. It has to be forest eternal. So rather than rest, it is eternal because the trees have been here way before humans and they will continue after us. The project is where people listen and sing with trees. And so I was there happily entering tree time and listening and singing.
Speaker #1
Wait, so eventually it'll involve... Audience participation? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Oh, wait. So, yeah, explain how that'll work.
Speaker #0
Yeah. If you can. Well, I mean, this is one of the cool things, or maybe not so cool, but one of the things about the Catholic Mass is the congregation participates. They sing along. They stand. Sometimes kneel. They sit. there are current things, contexts that are brought in from you know, various people. So, yeah, so it is something that is participatory. And how I've been working on this project is I have been working with different folks in woodland areas to engage in this practice because listening with trees, as you may know, trees communicate through their roots. And so... To listen with the tree, you're actually not listening with your ears. You're listening through your feet. And so I've been doing this practice of inhaling from the earth and exhaling back to the earth. And in that way, feet are then grounded in such a way that we can listen through our feet. And if you know elephants, elephants listen through their feet. if you look at an elephant's legs and feet. They are like tree trunks. And this is how herds of elephants are able to hear across long distances because they're actually listening through the earth.
Speaker #1
So it'll be a mass taking place in a forest?
Speaker #0
Yes, and concert halls and churches and within immersive installations. So part of this project was prompted by By me considering, you know, as a composer, what am I doing? What is my practice? Why bother? writing music now, because for me, music needs to have a function. There are over 2,000 musical requiems written. So I thought, oh, you know, I probably should contribute to this, but what would it be? And as the 20th century, there were many war requiems, I thought, well, the 21st century, it will most likely need to be about the climate. Around the same time that I was hanging out more and more in woodland areas. I was taking care of my father, and I helped care for him for the five months before he passed. And my dad was someone who was born in the mountains in October 1941 to refugees, but he would not go outside. And part of it is because it was 2021, so it was the pandemic. But... even more reason to go outside because no one was around. So I would go outside and I would bring back cones and so forth to him as a way to connect. But this also made me realize, I was also teaching online at the same time, and this also made me realize that not everyone has access to woodland areas and so that there needs to be immersive installation component.
Speaker #1
How much research do you tend to do before a project like this?
Speaker #0
A lot. I love research.
Speaker #1
Yeah. What was your favorite research project that was tied to a composition project?
Speaker #0
I would have to say the works that are related to the natural environment are the ones that are the ones that are the most grounding. Although there is a project I haven't been able to. complete yet. I think I needed to do Forest Day Turn-In before I did this other project, which is a sea level rise project. But I also want to talk about the trilogy that I worked on with writer Aaron Jafaris, because that one was a 15-year project that was interview-based, and it was interviewing people who had been through traumatic events. And while at the time it was difficult. to hold the circumstances in which the people we were interviewing, what they were carrying with them. I feel like the works that we were able, like the songs and raps we were able to write together, provided both awareness as well as accountability, as well as a deeper understanding of the... how complicated certain issues are, especially in the United States, such as gun violence prevention and immigration rights and labor and organizing. Yeah, so I'm very fond of that. And also. You know, like working with someone over such a long period, like a primary collaborator, and then bringing in a number of different people from a number of different areas to work alongside. There are communities that are formed and that already exist that I get to learn from.
Speaker #1
At what point is your coming up as an artist? Well, first of all, at what age did you decide you were going to be a composer?
Speaker #0
Eleven.
Speaker #1
Oh, okay. Did you compose something at 11?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And, you know, there are times when I don't call myself a composer and I feel like I'm entering another chapter where I may not be calling myself a composer. But I started calling myself a composer at 11 because I started to write, I started to notate the music. And that, to me, is the craft of a composer, is writing stuff down. But I was creating music way before then. Oh, you were. You were just navigating it. Yeah, correct. And so there were times in my life when I've called myself a singer-songwriter or like coming back to Seattle, still some people introduced me as a performance artist because I did that when I was in my 20s. And yeah, you know, people, however I am or my work is encountered, that's what they may continue to recognize me as.
Speaker #1
You mentioned... two things that really interested me about the way you work one is that you believe that music should your music should have a function and also that clearly you don't you don't like to work alone you like to work in community so i'd love to know about how you discovered these two aspects of your art making that you want your music to have a function and also that you want to work in community as you develop a piece for me like music
Speaker #0
for me as a child was a way to... comfort myself. I was the only son of immigrant parents who divorced, and they sent me away for a year when I was age seven. And so I was by myself. And I was also, and I've heard this later that that children sing to comfort themselves. And, you know, so I always pay special attention to children who are singing because I was one of those kids. So first it was made up songs. And then I started to hear songs that then I would copy. And then because I have an aunt who is a school teacher and was always looking for things for me and my cousins to participate in as kids, she saw an audition notice. were a musical needed Asian kids. And I think this is very common maybe for some Asian Americans. So, oh my gosh, Asian kids are needed to sing, who can sing.
Speaker #1
Is it King and I?
Speaker #0
Yes. See, you guessed it. You totally know, right? So yes, Bear Funding King and I. And it happened to be at a theater that was like eight shows a week for two months. And then they cast me in South Pacific. I already loved singing, so I was like, it's fine. And then I was in the boy choir, and I did that. And for me, I think that this actually answers both questions. There was a function in music. One was to comfort myself. And then all of a sudden, it became within community, right? Because I was with other kids who were singing in part of a show and storytelling. And I was taken out of school to be able to participate in these shows. And later on, when I studied composition, there was a disconnect until I added ethnomusicology. And even though I'm an ethnomusicology dropout, I learned some crucial things from ethnomusicology because ethnomusicologists are always considering what is the function of the music, right? What is the function of the music for certain communities? And so this is a way that I also consider in my teaching various artworks. Like what is the function? Is the function to decorate? Is the function to be part of a ceremony of passage, whether it's a wedding or burial? Is the function to teach? Like whatever that is. And so I think also because... The only way I've been able to thrive as a musician composer is by being in community, even though I was taught to be by myself, either in a practice room or at a desk writing. And that to me was very lonely. And I was like, no, I want to make music with people. And I think one of the positive things is one of my composition mentors, Joel Durand, And he... always came to my music rehearsals and he would speak with me about how I interacted with the musical ensemble because I tended to do large musical ensemble works where everyone was moving around, like physically moving. Musicians were physically moving. I know when I go into classical music situations now, sometimes musicians are scared. to meet me and
Speaker #1
I always think like why why would they be scared to meet me because I really like working with music ensembles wait you're saying they're scared to meet you because you're going to make them move around oh uh well maybe that and also
Speaker #0
I feel like from observing some other composers maybe they don't work with ensembles in the same way
Speaker #1
You have collaborated with a really broad range of artists and with Aaron, as you talked about, for at least 15 years.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
What is key to a fruitful collaboration?
Speaker #0
Figuring out how to communicate about the work and knowing that there are different entry points into the work and listening, listening really deeply. The cool thing about this collaboration is that, like, we have also witnessed each other at our worst and our best. It's like, yeah, that's... That's how it is. That's who we are as young men. And now it's like, oh yeah, we're much older. And so we don't act out as much, but he would check me. You know, I'd be in a workshop getting really, really angry. And because we know each other, he would be like, okay, calm down, calm down. I know this singer is not right or whatever it is. And similarly, I would check him. on on things yeah well after 15 years i mean it is it is a marriage yeah and and is that i yeah i don't know i don't know yeah i guess it depends on on how marriage is defined when you're a case it's a marriage that's easy to take a five-year break from it i'm
Speaker #1
back that's nice yeah
Speaker #0
Well, we'll see. We'll see. I mean, what happens is there's a shorthand. I guess in that sense, it is, right? It's a partnership where we've developed a shorthand. And because we, oh my gosh, I think one of the things about working together collaboratively, especially within performance, theater making, music making, is the number of revisions. And we figured out a way to do that.
Speaker #1
quickly and meaningfully right and also we can share like you know initial drafts of her like i have no idea what this is uh right and and not feel not feel the shame and embarrassment that's just how it works right yeah yeah you have to be able to do that i want to talk now about where you are now at seattle university where you're speaking to me from and the fact that you're director of arts leadership which i love that there is such an MFA program there. So can you tell me about when you decided to take the position, what did you think you were getting yourself into? What did arts leadership mean to you at the time?
Speaker #0
Arts leadership for me meant artist lead, which wasn't the program at the time. And yet in speaking with the founder, The director who I replaced, Kevin Mayfield, who started the program in 2007 and directed it until 2023. So this is the thing, right? So he positions himself as a nonprofit theater administrator. He was managing director of the Seattle Children's Theater, which is what brought him to Seattle from Denver, Colorado, where he managed. I don't know which theater he managed there. But I kept asking him as I do. Anyone who's in arts management or arts administration or arts leadership, I'm like, what's your artistic practice? What's, you know, like, did you play music? Were you a theater kid? Like, you know, and he would never answer until a year later. He said he was a clarinetist, which there are so many cool clarinetists who are arts leaders. Ben Johnson, right, who's running the Office of Arts. Cultural Affairs in Minneapolis. And Rob Bayliss is a clarinetist. He's artistic director at Broadstage.
Speaker #1
Why do you think he wouldn't answer?
Speaker #0
Because that wasn't his identity, because he had to give it up. And this is the thing, you know, like our, you know, school, school can be a harmful place for some people. And I think, especially within the classical music world. It continues to be, as it should, an apprentice system. And so if you have a primary teacher who is not going to support you, whether it's composition or clarinet or whatnot, then you have to go elsewhere. And so he went into accounting and discovered he loved finances and then went that route. Years later, became a nonprofit theater administrator, came in Seattle University to teach him courses, and then was asked to start something to do with arts administration, management, or leadership. So the interesting thing is he started a two-year MFA in arts leadership.
Speaker #1
But not for artists.
Speaker #0
Well, because when he started, they were people who wanted to fill certain roles at arts institutions. Right? 2007. But as he was leaving, what he recognized was that students don't necessarily want to be in those roles. They may want to start something new, or they had been working at an arts institution and was like, yeah, something's really wrong with the field. One of the things I did, because someone on the hiring committee was from nonprofit leadership, I spoke about the nonprofit industrial complex and how many arts organizations are within that and how there are many models that independent artists are, like, not all, like, I chose never to have a nonprofit, even though I have worked at. nonprofit organizations, right? But there is something inherent in it that sets certain things up to fail. Yeah. And a lot of it is interviews are a two-way process. And so I'm like, yeah, if you're not going to accept this, then let's talk about the nonprofit industrial complex. Then yeah, then I'm the wrong person to lead this transition for arts leadership.
Speaker #1
But they said yes. Clearly, they were open to a reinvention.
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. And we are, me and the other full-time professor is James Miles, who's a hip-hop educator. You know, I didn't know him. He has a TED Talk on hip-hop education, and I was a bit scared to meet with him. But when I met with him and I learned that, oh, yeah, he is. He's been in Spike Lee films, but he is dedicated to education that is equitable and that will not harm, but will rather liberate and open up spaces for imagination and creativity. And so there are a number of things that we agreed upon early on, like how we would shepherd students through a two-year MFA. And one is that we would encourage them to continually make things and to... open possibilities rather than direct them into certain positions.
Speaker #1
As you said, the non-profit industrial complex is really showing its cracks in recent years. As you are teaching your students in this arts leadership program towards liberation, as you're calling it, what are you learning from them? And what are you also teaching them about what an arts... leader looks like today?
Speaker #0
So as I've recognized the only way I can thrive as an artist is in community. Similarly, leaders, if nobody has your back as a leader, you're in big trouble, right? So I'm really interested in distributed leadership. I'm really interested in leaders who I mean, one of the things for the incoming MFA candidates is our primary agenda is to build a strong cohort. That's it. Yeah, we're going to go through a lot of content really quickly, and we're going to figure out how to work with each other, right? Because the people you are sitting with right now are the people who are going to have your backs.
Speaker #1
How big is each class?
Speaker #0
We're not going to be at the same institution. A dozen.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, be able to ask, have reality checks, right?
Speaker #1
With your cohort.
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
So you start in 2023. So you have one class that's graduated since you took over, right? That you were with for the full two years. Do you have a sense of... where they're going to lead through their artistry.
Speaker #0
The thing I know from being an educator for so long is as universities, marketing and so forth, you know, talk about careers and so forth, we actually don't know what the careers are, right? Like the role I'm in now, it wasn't created until 2007 and I graduated. with my MFA in musical theater writing in 2005. And who would ever think that an MFA in musical theater writing would lead to being director of arts leadership? So I don't think so much in terms of, yeah, what are the position titles you will have in the future? We don't know that. But there is something about really knowing what your values are and what your capacity is and having a community. to support you through that. Yeah. So I don't know. I am super excited though, because I know some of them discovered. So for example, there's a student who is a medium. And it was able to channel certain things. And she ended up, as her MFA thesis, creating a podcast about other spiritual people. And she came into the program as a theater artist, right? And then discovered, oh, wait a minute. There's something actually absolutely connected to theater. and is a path that... Maybe her ancestors went on that she is now getting to explore.
Speaker #1
And then finally, what looking at over the next 12 months, besides teaching as you are, is there a project, performance, anything that you're really, really looking forward to?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So one thing I realized about full-time teaching is the art is also a full-time job. So I'm... Ha ha. I'm really excited that there are two new productions of Stuck Elevator happening. Stuck Elevator. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So the first university production is happening at San Jose State University. And then Opera Grand Rapids is also doing a new production. And Stuck Elevator is so close to my heart because it's the first of the trilogy that Eric and I worked on. And it's prompted. By the real experience of an undocumented immigrant who is trapped in a Bronx elevator for 81 hours. Yeah, so, you know, lighthearted musical operatic comedy.
Speaker #1
If you'd like to learn more about Byron and read this interview, just head to uncsa.edu slash artrestarts. If you enjoyed this or any of our episodes, it would be wonderful if you'd review us wherever you get your podcasts and or give us a rating. And please share this episode with anyone you think would enjoy it. You are the primary way in which we reach new listeners. Our theme music is by Shanghai Restoration Project. I'm Pierre Carlo Talenti, and on behalf of the Kenan Institute for the Arts, thank you for listening.

Description

https://byronauyong.com/

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Transcription

Speaker #0
There are a number of things that we agreed upon early on, like how we would shepherd students through a two-year MFA. And one is that we would encourage them to continually make things and to open possibilities rather than direct them into certain positions.
Speaker #1
Hello and welcome to Art Restart, where we learn from artists who, wherever they work, whatever they make. are shaking up the status quo in their fields and in their communities. I'm Pierre Carlo Talenti, the producer and editor of this podcast, which is brought to you by the Thomas S. Keenan Institute for the Arts at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. In this episode, we'll be speaking with composer Byron O. Young. For more than two decades, Byron has created music that bridges performance, ritual, and activism. His highly collaborative works have been presented by such varied institutions as the Seattle Symphony, BAM, the Smithsonian, and the American Conservatory Theater. Among his many large-scale projects is his long partnership with writer and rapper Aaron Jafaris, with whom he created the Liberation Trilogy, which includes Stuck Elevator, The Ones, and Activist Songbook. I was particularly excited to speak with Byron because in addition to his composing work, he's also Associate Professor and Director of Arts Leadership at Seattle University. In an era when a lot of assumptions about arts institutions are being overturned, I really wanted to know what he thought a 21st century arts leader needs to be. I knew he'd recently returned from his second residency at Bloedel Reserve in Puget Sound. So I started off by asking him what he was working on while he was there.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so I'm working on a musical requiem called Forest Aeternum. So if you, so the first or one of the lyrics in the Catholic mass, requiem mass is Requiem Aeternum. And during my first residency there in 2022, like after the first day, I realized it because I went in thinking the project was called Forest Requiem. Requiem, I realized, oh no, it can't be. It has to be forest eternal. So rather than rest, it is eternal because the trees have been here way before humans and they will continue after us. The project is where people listen and sing with trees. And so I was there happily entering tree time and listening and singing.
Speaker #1
Wait, so eventually it'll involve... Audience participation? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Oh, wait. So, yeah, explain how that'll work.
Speaker #0
Yeah. If you can. Well, I mean, this is one of the cool things, or maybe not so cool, but one of the things about the Catholic Mass is the congregation participates. They sing along. They stand. Sometimes kneel. They sit. there are current things, contexts that are brought in from you know, various people. So, yeah, so it is something that is participatory. And how I've been working on this project is I have been working with different folks in woodland areas to engage in this practice because listening with trees, as you may know, trees communicate through their roots. And so... To listen with the tree, you're actually not listening with your ears. You're listening through your feet. And so I've been doing this practice of inhaling from the earth and exhaling back to the earth. And in that way, feet are then grounded in such a way that we can listen through our feet. And if you know elephants, elephants listen through their feet. if you look at an elephant's legs and feet. They are like tree trunks. And this is how herds of elephants are able to hear across long distances because they're actually listening through the earth.
Speaker #1
So it'll be a mass taking place in a forest?
Speaker #0
Yes, and concert halls and churches and within immersive installations. So part of this project was prompted by By me considering, you know, as a composer, what am I doing? What is my practice? Why bother? writing music now, because for me, music needs to have a function. There are over 2,000 musical requiems written. So I thought, oh, you know, I probably should contribute to this, but what would it be? And as the 20th century, there were many war requiems, I thought, well, the 21st century, it will most likely need to be about the climate. Around the same time that I was hanging out more and more in woodland areas. I was taking care of my father, and I helped care for him for the five months before he passed. And my dad was someone who was born in the mountains in October 1941 to refugees, but he would not go outside. And part of it is because it was 2021, so it was the pandemic. But... even more reason to go outside because no one was around. So I would go outside and I would bring back cones and so forth to him as a way to connect. But this also made me realize, I was also teaching online at the same time, and this also made me realize that not everyone has access to woodland areas and so that there needs to be immersive installation component.
Speaker #1
How much research do you tend to do before a project like this?
Speaker #0
A lot. I love research.
Speaker #1
Yeah. What was your favorite research project that was tied to a composition project?
Speaker #0
I would have to say the works that are related to the natural environment are the ones that are the ones that are the most grounding. Although there is a project I haven't been able to. complete yet. I think I needed to do Forest Day Turn-In before I did this other project, which is a sea level rise project. But I also want to talk about the trilogy that I worked on with writer Aaron Jafaris, because that one was a 15-year project that was interview-based, and it was interviewing people who had been through traumatic events. And while at the time it was difficult. to hold the circumstances in which the people we were interviewing, what they were carrying with them. I feel like the works that we were able, like the songs and raps we were able to write together, provided both awareness as well as accountability, as well as a deeper understanding of the... how complicated certain issues are, especially in the United States, such as gun violence prevention and immigration rights and labor and organizing. Yeah, so I'm very fond of that. And also. You know, like working with someone over such a long period, like a primary collaborator, and then bringing in a number of different people from a number of different areas to work alongside. There are communities that are formed and that already exist that I get to learn from.
Speaker #1
At what point is your coming up as an artist? Well, first of all, at what age did you decide you were going to be a composer?
Speaker #0
Eleven.
Speaker #1
Oh, okay. Did you compose something at 11?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And, you know, there are times when I don't call myself a composer and I feel like I'm entering another chapter where I may not be calling myself a composer. But I started calling myself a composer at 11 because I started to write, I started to notate the music. And that, to me, is the craft of a composer, is writing stuff down. But I was creating music way before then. Oh, you were. You were just navigating it. Yeah, correct. And so there were times in my life when I've called myself a singer-songwriter or like coming back to Seattle, still some people introduced me as a performance artist because I did that when I was in my 20s. And yeah, you know, people, however I am or my work is encountered, that's what they may continue to recognize me as.
Speaker #1
You mentioned... two things that really interested me about the way you work one is that you believe that music should your music should have a function and also that clearly you don't you don't like to work alone you like to work in community so i'd love to know about how you discovered these two aspects of your art making that you want your music to have a function and also that you want to work in community as you develop a piece for me like music
Speaker #0
for me as a child was a way to... comfort myself. I was the only son of immigrant parents who divorced, and they sent me away for a year when I was age seven. And so I was by myself. And I was also, and I've heard this later that that children sing to comfort themselves. And, you know, so I always pay special attention to children who are singing because I was one of those kids. So first it was made up songs. And then I started to hear songs that then I would copy. And then because I have an aunt who is a school teacher and was always looking for things for me and my cousins to participate in as kids, she saw an audition notice. were a musical needed Asian kids. And I think this is very common maybe for some Asian Americans. So, oh my gosh, Asian kids are needed to sing, who can sing.
Speaker #1
Is it King and I?
Speaker #0
Yes. See, you guessed it. You totally know, right? So yes, Bear Funding King and I. And it happened to be at a theater that was like eight shows a week for two months. And then they cast me in South Pacific. I already loved singing, so I was like, it's fine. And then I was in the boy choir, and I did that. And for me, I think that this actually answers both questions. There was a function in music. One was to comfort myself. And then all of a sudden, it became within community, right? Because I was with other kids who were singing in part of a show and storytelling. And I was taken out of school to be able to participate in these shows. And later on, when I studied composition, there was a disconnect until I added ethnomusicology. And even though I'm an ethnomusicology dropout, I learned some crucial things from ethnomusicology because ethnomusicologists are always considering what is the function of the music, right? What is the function of the music for certain communities? And so this is a way that I also consider in my teaching various artworks. Like what is the function? Is the function to decorate? Is the function to be part of a ceremony of passage, whether it's a wedding or burial? Is the function to teach? Like whatever that is. And so I think also because... The only way I've been able to thrive as a musician composer is by being in community, even though I was taught to be by myself, either in a practice room or at a desk writing. And that to me was very lonely. And I was like, no, I want to make music with people. And I think one of the positive things is one of my composition mentors, Joel Durand, And he... always came to my music rehearsals and he would speak with me about how I interacted with the musical ensemble because I tended to do large musical ensemble works where everyone was moving around, like physically moving. Musicians were physically moving. I know when I go into classical music situations now, sometimes musicians are scared. to meet me and
Speaker #1
I always think like why why would they be scared to meet me because I really like working with music ensembles wait you're saying they're scared to meet you because you're going to make them move around oh uh well maybe that and also
Speaker #0
I feel like from observing some other composers maybe they don't work with ensembles in the same way
Speaker #1
You have collaborated with a really broad range of artists and with Aaron, as you talked about, for at least 15 years.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
What is key to a fruitful collaboration?
Speaker #0
Figuring out how to communicate about the work and knowing that there are different entry points into the work and listening, listening really deeply. The cool thing about this collaboration is that, like, we have also witnessed each other at our worst and our best. It's like, yeah, that's... That's how it is. That's who we are as young men. And now it's like, oh yeah, we're much older. And so we don't act out as much, but he would check me. You know, I'd be in a workshop getting really, really angry. And because we know each other, he would be like, okay, calm down, calm down. I know this singer is not right or whatever it is. And similarly, I would check him. on on things yeah well after 15 years i mean it is it is a marriage yeah and and is that i yeah i don't know i don't know yeah i guess it depends on on how marriage is defined when you're a case it's a marriage that's easy to take a five-year break from it i'm
Speaker #1
back that's nice yeah
Speaker #0
Well, we'll see. We'll see. I mean, what happens is there's a shorthand. I guess in that sense, it is, right? It's a partnership where we've developed a shorthand. And because we, oh my gosh, I think one of the things about working together collaboratively, especially within performance, theater making, music making, is the number of revisions. And we figured out a way to do that.
Speaker #1
quickly and meaningfully right and also we can share like you know initial drafts of her like i have no idea what this is uh right and and not feel not feel the shame and embarrassment that's just how it works right yeah yeah you have to be able to do that i want to talk now about where you are now at seattle university where you're speaking to me from and the fact that you're director of arts leadership which i love that there is such an MFA program there. So can you tell me about when you decided to take the position, what did you think you were getting yourself into? What did arts leadership mean to you at the time?
Speaker #0
Arts leadership for me meant artist lead, which wasn't the program at the time. And yet in speaking with the founder, The director who I replaced, Kevin Mayfield, who started the program in 2007 and directed it until 2023. So this is the thing, right? So he positions himself as a nonprofit theater administrator. He was managing director of the Seattle Children's Theater, which is what brought him to Seattle from Denver, Colorado, where he managed. I don't know which theater he managed there. But I kept asking him as I do. Anyone who's in arts management or arts administration or arts leadership, I'm like, what's your artistic practice? What's, you know, like, did you play music? Were you a theater kid? Like, you know, and he would never answer until a year later. He said he was a clarinetist, which there are so many cool clarinetists who are arts leaders. Ben Johnson, right, who's running the Office of Arts. Cultural Affairs in Minneapolis. And Rob Bayliss is a clarinetist. He's artistic director at Broadstage.
Speaker #1
Why do you think he wouldn't answer?
Speaker #0
Because that wasn't his identity, because he had to give it up. And this is the thing, you know, like our, you know, school, school can be a harmful place for some people. And I think, especially within the classical music world. It continues to be, as it should, an apprentice system. And so if you have a primary teacher who is not going to support you, whether it's composition or clarinet or whatnot, then you have to go elsewhere. And so he went into accounting and discovered he loved finances and then went that route. Years later, became a nonprofit theater administrator, came in Seattle University to teach him courses, and then was asked to start something to do with arts administration, management, or leadership. So the interesting thing is he started a two-year MFA in arts leadership.
Speaker #1
But not for artists.
Speaker #0
Well, because when he started, they were people who wanted to fill certain roles at arts institutions. Right? 2007. But as he was leaving, what he recognized was that students don't necessarily want to be in those roles. They may want to start something new, or they had been working at an arts institution and was like, yeah, something's really wrong with the field. One of the things I did, because someone on the hiring committee was from nonprofit leadership, I spoke about the nonprofit industrial complex and how many arts organizations are within that and how there are many models that independent artists are, like, not all, like, I chose never to have a nonprofit, even though I have worked at. nonprofit organizations, right? But there is something inherent in it that sets certain things up to fail. Yeah. And a lot of it is interviews are a two-way process. And so I'm like, yeah, if you're not going to accept this, then let's talk about the nonprofit industrial complex. Then yeah, then I'm the wrong person to lead this transition for arts leadership.
Speaker #1
But they said yes. Clearly, they were open to a reinvention.
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. And we are, me and the other full-time professor is James Miles, who's a hip-hop educator. You know, I didn't know him. He has a TED Talk on hip-hop education, and I was a bit scared to meet with him. But when I met with him and I learned that, oh, yeah, he is. He's been in Spike Lee films, but he is dedicated to education that is equitable and that will not harm, but will rather liberate and open up spaces for imagination and creativity. And so there are a number of things that we agreed upon early on, like how we would shepherd students through a two-year MFA. And one is that we would encourage them to continually make things and to... open possibilities rather than direct them into certain positions.
Speaker #1
As you said, the non-profit industrial complex is really showing its cracks in recent years. As you are teaching your students in this arts leadership program towards liberation, as you're calling it, what are you learning from them? And what are you also teaching them about what an arts... leader looks like today?
Speaker #0
So as I've recognized the only way I can thrive as an artist is in community. Similarly, leaders, if nobody has your back as a leader, you're in big trouble, right? So I'm really interested in distributed leadership. I'm really interested in leaders who I mean, one of the things for the incoming MFA candidates is our primary agenda is to build a strong cohort. That's it. Yeah, we're going to go through a lot of content really quickly, and we're going to figure out how to work with each other, right? Because the people you are sitting with right now are the people who are going to have your backs.
Speaker #1
How big is each class?
Speaker #0
We're not going to be at the same institution. A dozen.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, be able to ask, have reality checks, right?
Speaker #1
With your cohort.
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
So you start in 2023. So you have one class that's graduated since you took over, right? That you were with for the full two years. Do you have a sense of... where they're going to lead through their artistry.
Speaker #0
The thing I know from being an educator for so long is as universities, marketing and so forth, you know, talk about careers and so forth, we actually don't know what the careers are, right? Like the role I'm in now, it wasn't created until 2007 and I graduated. with my MFA in musical theater writing in 2005. And who would ever think that an MFA in musical theater writing would lead to being director of arts leadership? So I don't think so much in terms of, yeah, what are the position titles you will have in the future? We don't know that. But there is something about really knowing what your values are and what your capacity is and having a community. to support you through that. Yeah. So I don't know. I am super excited though, because I know some of them discovered. So for example, there's a student who is a medium. And it was able to channel certain things. And she ended up, as her MFA thesis, creating a podcast about other spiritual people. And she came into the program as a theater artist, right? And then discovered, oh, wait a minute. There's something actually absolutely connected to theater. and is a path that... Maybe her ancestors went on that she is now getting to explore.
Speaker #1
And then finally, what looking at over the next 12 months, besides teaching as you are, is there a project, performance, anything that you're really, really looking forward to?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So one thing I realized about full-time teaching is the art is also a full-time job. So I'm... Ha ha. I'm really excited that there are two new productions of Stuck Elevator happening. Stuck Elevator. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So the first university production is happening at San Jose State University. And then Opera Grand Rapids is also doing a new production. And Stuck Elevator is so close to my heart because it's the first of the trilogy that Eric and I worked on. And it's prompted. By the real experience of an undocumented immigrant who is trapped in a Bronx elevator for 81 hours. Yeah, so, you know, lighthearted musical operatic comedy.
Speaker #1
If you'd like to learn more about Byron and read this interview, just head to uncsa.edu slash artrestarts. If you enjoyed this or any of our episodes, it would be wonderful if you'd review us wherever you get your podcasts and or give us a rating. And please share this episode with anyone you think would enjoy it. You are the primary way in which we reach new listeners. Our theme music is by Shanghai Restoration Project. I'm Pierre Carlo Talenti, and on behalf of the Kenan Institute for the Arts, thank you for listening.

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