Transcription

• Speaker #0

  My guest this week decided to start a business about five years ago with a clear goal in mind. He wanted that business to be truly regenerative. Let me explain. Most businesses today are focusing on sustainability. They're trying to be a bit less bad, but their net impact on people and planet is still a negative one. It's still detrimental. And if you had to scale one of those businesses 1,000 times bigger, then their negative impact would also grow 1000 times bigger. But a truly regenerative business has a net positive impact on people and planet. And therefore, if you had to scale that business 1000 times bigger, well, the positive impact of that company, of that business would also grow 1000 times bigger. The story you'll hear in this conversation is about a Dutch company called Wilder Land. And they have achieved this incredible feat of creating a profitable business that is good for biodiversity, that is good for soils, that is great for the farmers they work with, and that is also delicious for their customers. And I can attest to that because I tried a lot of their products and I have to say they're amazing. This episode was produced in partnership with Soil Capital. I am your host Raphael and this is the Deep Seed Podcast. Hi Matthijs, great to meet you. Thank you so much for welcoming me here in your offices in Amsterdam. Yes,

• Speaker #1

  great having you here.

• Speaker #0

  And to start the conversation, I would love to hear a little bit more about your personal story and how you got here, basically.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. So yeah, hi, I'm Matthijs Westerwoud from Wilderland. I co-founded Wilderland together with Dan already five years ago, or then we started with the idea. Before that, my study background is in psychology and business administration. And I worked in some sort of creative project management firm, always looking to start my own business because I always felt I want to become an entrepreneur and want to build or create a business. and also in the field of sustainability, future-proof businesses, so to say. And while working in this creative project management firm, I worked for a lot of big international companies. And I felt always looking like, what do I want? Where am I good at? And what is the thing I want to do? And one thing that I learned is that I wasn't inspired at all by the way sustainability was done or treated in these big, big companies. I always felt like, yeah, this is doing less bad. So yeah, who cares? Why not be more ambitious? So then I realized that sustainability wasn't it for me because it felt like, yeah, it's less bad. And I did this thought experiment with myself. So what if I start my own business and what if it will become a huge success? What if the whole world will start using my product, service or whatever? Will it become a new problem or will it be truly a solution? And then I found that most of the sustainable businesses only. can become a new problem if they really scale up. So for instance a good example is let's say organic tea from Sri Lanka. If the whole world starts drinking organic tea then they need to cut down more rainforests in Sri Lanka and create more monocultures to create this tea.

• Speaker #0

  I see so the idea is that sometimes something is a good idea on a small scale. Yes. Like doing something organic is better than not. But actually if you scale that really big, you create other kind of issues. Yes,

• Speaker #1

  and palm oil is a great example because palm oil is the most efficient plant-based oil. we have found yet. So in the 1980s, palm oil was the most sustainable oil there was. And then people are like, okay, so this is sustainable? Yes, let's kill the shit out of this. And then 40 years later, it's a huge problem because all rainforest is cut for palm oil production because the whole world started using palm oil. But it was so sustainable. Yeah, not on this scale. So... And for me, that was a really nice thought experiment. And I noticed that every time I did this experiment on a new product or whatever, and I thought like, yeah, no, it will become a new problem eventually. And then I lost all my motivation. And so it wasn't really, I made it quite tough for myself to find the right.

• Speaker #0

  So while you were looking for business ideas and for project ideas, and every time you would apply this thinking process, you would come up with...

• Speaker #1

  the conclusion yes and and actually they're like the two like or throw more garbage into this world by making products or whatever or create more monocultures and then it was like ah i don't want that or i am and then i found out about common land uh i learned there's a dutch documentary made about them and i saw that and then i felt like wow they have this model which integrates a business model in nature restoration. And then for me, it was like, oh, wow. So then you create a business model that creates more natural capital. Or so the bigger this company becomes, the more nature returns. And for me, that was like mind blowing. They're like, oh, wow, you can combine business like being really commercial and selling nice things and meanwhile creating more nature. That was for me like, oh, way out. I need to look into this. So then I felt like, yeah, if the starting point of a business is nature restoration or landscape restoration, then yeah, better make it big because the bigger, the more nature. And then I met Dan and he... He started working at Commonland and a few years later we coincidentally met again and I said, yeah, I want to start a business and I'm hugely inspired by Commonland and you work there. And he said, yeah, I work there, but I want to start my own business as well. And then we said like, okay, let's work together. And so we quit our jobs and we said, we want to create a business in the Netherlands inspired by the Commonland model.

• Speaker #0

  and we had no clue what to do so you just yeah you just quit your job you're like let's start a business we don't know what yet but we we have the same energy we know what we want to do and we have the feeling this this one way or another we'll we'll find something and this is um worth the energy to dive into and see what comes out that's an amazing example and story for a lot of I speak to often, and I think some of the listeners from this podcast who are thinking about maybe quitting their jobs and starting their own business or starting a new career in a different field that they really want to get into, but they're struggling to find the courage to do that. Maybe your story will bring them some motivation.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Yeah. And so actually there were, I think there are two things that really helped us. So we already had some background in entrepreneurship. So we had all these side hustles all the time. So we had a bit of experience. creating a small companies and and that was actually the the biggest help is that the starting point was so clear we wanted we want to contribute to nature and by by having these like these clear boundaries based on the common land model it is even easier so like okay yeah considering packaging considering production all these things you're gonna like yeah does it contribute to nature yes or no so therefore it so the direction is really clear It's still also very difficult, but by having like, okay, we want to go that direction and everything we find in that direction that sounds like a good business model, we'll dive into. Because otherwise it can be like, I want to start a business in this field, like, oh yeah, and it's maybe even too broad.

• Speaker #0

  So that's really unusual. Instead of starting with, we want to do this product or we want to launch this service or this business, you started with, we want to start by...

• Speaker #1

  regenerating yes and and then you started from there and then yes yeah yeah yeah yeah so and then we talked with a lot of farmers and also ecologists from the weiland in the netherlands and commonland network so we talked with a lot of people and so we heard two things so the ecologist saying okay yeah if you want to do something that contributes to nature it's basically less monocultures and more native plants that's what you need to do okay um and we talked also with a lot of farmers and we talked we started talking with farmers because uh especially in the netherlands the biggest land users are farmers so around 60 of the the land in the netherlands is is managed by farmers so then if you want to contribute to nature let's start talking to the biggest land owner the agricultural um and so we we talked to these farmers and we said like okay we want to create a business together with you uh and find a business model actually we were looking for a business model on biodiversity so the so the more you sell the more the more biodiversity returns to your land and then all these farmers said we would love to do that we would love to be produce as sustainable as possible and and completely work together with nature and so from conventional farms so basically they say like oh yeah sounds really great but there's only one thing there needs to be a market because we can do it as as agro ecological regenerative by the verse as possible but if we cannot sell anything we will stop it um And so we said, okay, yeah. And so, and we said, yeah, yeah, we heard it from these ecologists that we need to plant more, less monoculture and more native plants. And then these farmers says, yeah, these are weeds. We cannot make any money with weeds. We said, okay, yeah, sorry. We back to these ecologists are like, yeah, you're talking about native plants. What kind of plants are we talking about? Because Don and I, we didn't have any background in. agri or ecology or whatever. And then it was like, yeah, chamomile, dandelion, plantain, yarrow, all these weeds. But then we said, wait a minute, you said chamomile and nettle. And then we thought, this sounds like tea, right? So chamomile tea. And then we thought, firstly, we thought this is too easy making local tea. from chamomile. We thought that if chamomile grows like weeds in the Netherlands, then probably there are already, the chamomile tea we drink in the Netherlands is already coming from the Netherlands. Then we looked into that and we found out that most of the herbal tea is coming from even outside of Europe, like that it's from Egypt or India. So the big herbal tea brands source there are. herbs over there. And then we thought, oh, wow. So if more chamomile, nettle, these plants are great for biodiversity, then we can make tea from it. And if we can sell them locally, then we can create a business model on plants that are grown locally, that attract a lot of insects, and then we can pay the farmers for growing them. So that was the first. first step of finding like, oh, wow, this sounds like a business model. So, and that also was a conclusion of when we talked, so we talked with farmers and we talked with ecologists and all these people that are really into this field of agroecology, regenerative agriculture. And then what we figured was that our added value could be creating this market. because we are more from an entrepreneurial side. So then we thought like, oh, if we can create the market for these regeneratively grown plants and create nice products from them, we can create a market. And if there's a market, farmers will follow. And if we can integrate like these biodiversity nature restoration into the proposition of this brand or this product, we... we want to create um then we can tell these stories and then we can even tell the story why it's more expensive and why it's it's the way we do it um and and then there's like this big ambitious goal uh uh came into our minds like what if we can become the regenerative unilever so to create a brand called wilderland with all kind of different products below that that are all super nice but that as a consumer you know if I buy something from wilderland it's locally sourced and it's good for nature, it's nature recovering. So that and then herbal tea was the first product we started working on.

• Speaker #0

  And so what was the first steps to making that tea? So did you work with farmers to grow those native plants that you needed? Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  so the idea behind is like okay let's ask farmers to grow more native plants on their field and pay them properly for them and ask them so more native plants in a non-monoculture way. So that's the thing. So then we started, so in the beginning we started, we had no clue, we had no idea, but the only thing we thought like yeah. Chamomile, if you put chamomile fresh in hot water, you have chamomile tea. And if you dry it and put it in hot water, you have chamomile tea as well. And in the beginning, we started with a few farmers, like more from the Weiland network. And we asked them, yeah, can we start experimenting growing herbs on your land? Because we want to make tea out of them. And a lot of farmers really laughed and like, what? You want to turn weeds into products? And we said.

• Speaker #0

  yes that's that's um interesting actually the the word weeds and the way we categorize different plants into the good ones and the bad ones yes i just thought about this but i grew up i mean i grew up quite close to nature and we had a big garden my father was working in the garden with a vegetable patch and i was helping him out and i remember asking him which one were the good plants and the bad plants that and you need to take out so you know i think we all grew up with this mindset that there's good plants and there's

• Speaker #1

  bad plants that we call weeds yes it's very uh negative word actually super negative yeah because the the the thing with these weeds are native plants often is that they grow they have been here for more than 10 000 years so so and now we say yeah you're a weed you don't belong here um so if you and if you look into the the the uh so the ecological value of these native plants is huge. It's way better than non-native plants. So that is, so therefore weeds is super strange word because the ecological value is great. So there's a wide range of benefits actually that are linked to these weeds. And you can make really nice things out of them. The roots go deeper, the soil improves. So it's, it's yeah it's the plant that that belongs here and and we started saying no no you don't belong here yeah anymore yeah right uh but it was just us not having or or looking at them in the right way because if you look into the the wide variety of benefits they provide us with like ecological benefits not soil health whatever uh culinary benefit like then it's like wow you're like a super super plant uh let let's uh let's collaborate

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I love that you're flipping the narrative. Yeah. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  So, and we call our tea unherbal tea. And so the un, that's from Dutch, unkraald, it's between brackets. So it's like, yeah, are they herbs or weeds? Whatever. We leave it in the middle.

• Speaker #0

  By the way, like for people watching the video version, I'm drinking a delicious, what is it? A smoky, holy smoke.

• Speaker #1

  Holy smoke. Yeah. So yeah.

• Speaker #0

  It is absolutely delicious. What's in this one?

• Speaker #1

  It's smoked birch leaf, meadow sweet and water mint. And actually this flavor of the Holy Smoky was even inspired by the peatlands. And we tried to, so the peatlands are in the, they used to harvest peat from there, like in the past centuries, which has this smoky flavor to it. And now actually the challenge of the peatlands is that they need to be re-watered again or so now they're too dry and there needs to become more water so we choose these plants that could all um benefit that landscape benefit that landscape and and and work in a more wet or like create the wetlands again so by drinking more holy smoky you're regenerating the peatlands how cool is that yeah amazing yeah yeah because if we need more birch leaf then we say to the farmers please plant more birches on your land And then farmers say, oh yeah, if I can make money by growing birch and meadow sweet, of course, I'll integrate it.

• Speaker #0

  Awesome. That's amazing. For people listening, if you're looking for ethical presents, birthdays and stuff, I mean, we're recording this just before Christmas, but unfortunately, it will be released after Christmas. But there's still birthdays and other occasions. That's an amazing gift idea. It's something delicious, but that is actually actively contributing to regenerating and rewilding.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  nature yeah so awesome yeah there's only one disadvantage that's the price the rest is all good yeah yeah so is it considerably more expensive than other blends of teas that you would find in your local supermarket um

• Speaker #1

  So for the tea, actually, it's not that expensive anymore. Or yes, it's amongst the more expensive blends. So we compare ourselves to Monoland. We say you have Monoland and Wilderland, and let's work towards a Wilderland. And all products coming from Monoland are super efficient, super cheap, super anonymous, maybe even tasteless, artificial and fake, super cheap. And everything from Wilderland is local, inefficient, super tasty, super good for farmers, super good for the people working. So there's no, this only thing is the price. So we put the price at the consumer. Or you could say, yeah, we are a bit more expensive or the products from Monoland are too cheap.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  yeah yeah um and therefore so because it's a bit more expensive gifting is really nice way for people to start um um or taste or experience our products because for a gift it's a different and they say oh yeah this is a really nice gift try it and then um so actually it's nice that you say gifting because that's a really nice first step for a lot of people to get in touch with our products

• Speaker #0

  Okay, sweet. So we'll get into more detail later in the conversation. And I want to bring you back to where I interrupted you, which was the farmers were saying, you want us to grow weeds?

• Speaker #1

  Are you crazy? Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Let's get back to that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So that was the farmer is like, you want me to grow weeds? You turn them into a product? Yes, let's try it. And luckily, there were some farmers that thought that this idea was so crazy that they said. oh this is so crazy let's go and so we started with with some farms and really started experimenting so how to do this and and and how does it work and so we started experimenting on the land together with farms and we even and we directly started experimenting in how to sell this so we we started a website and the nice thing with a website is is that you can easily adjust and test and see what works well, because that's the biggest challenge is selling it. That's what these farmers said, like, yeah, it can be done. And there are enough examples around the world of great farms that really work closely to nature and that regenerate the land. But why isn't it big? Why is the market share of regenerative? Why is the market share of organic or biodynamic? as low as it is, because it's really difficult to sell. So therefore we also took this really seriously. We need to create this market. So how to sell this? And so we started with an online, so with a web shop selling local tea and we tested. So do we need to talk about bees and butterflies or do we need to say this is regenerative or?

• Speaker #0

  But wait, so that tea that you were selling on that early website was not the tea that you were making yet? No. You didn't have the product yet? Yes,

• Speaker #1

  we didn't have the product yet. But there is in the Netherlands another organic small herbal tea farm, so to say. And we bought the herbs from them. So we said like, okay, let's buy the herbs as local, as organic or biodynamic as possible until we have our own harvest. Because then we can start creating the market. Because if we would wait for our own harvest and in the first year, maybe we had 50 kilo of our own harvest. And then, yeah, after that, we're sold out. Let's wait for the next season. What we wanted is that we could show to these farmers like we have huge demand for like these herbs, come on, start growing more. And that's still the thing. So at the moment, we have a lot of harvest, but still every year we aim at 100% of our own crop. But actually, if demand rises, so maybe if we grow 200% in one year, we could say yes to all demand. Everybody like, okay, I want more. Then we'll buy it from maybe Germany or France, like biodynamic. and then in the year after we could say like last year we sold 500 kilos of chamomile so then we can say to the farmers we work with okay you can increase the volume of chamomile so because we did that we could create the market and then afterwards we could allow more farmers.

• Speaker #0

  Right, okay, that gives you this flexibility to fill up the demand by sourcing the products elsewhere when you need to. Yes,

• Speaker #1

  and also it's really important to test the flavors. So our criteria are that we want the plants mostly native or local species that attract a lot of insects and we need to figure out how to create great taste because that's a really important aspect because a consumer will buy it once if it's good for nature but will not come back if it doesn't taste right and we want people to come back and therefore taste is really important so therefore testing the flavors is also really important because then we say like oh yes these three ingredients with a bit of smoky or with a bit of this they work really well and then you say like okay wow now demand is rising this flavor is like a killer product and then it's it's more easy to say to these farmers yeah they're weeds but we have huge demand for meadow sweet come on start start to start growing it and so therefore always having the market is the most important thing because if we don't have the market we cannot pay the farmers and farmers will stop growing it for us

• Speaker #0

  So the first step was creating that market that was successful. You could experiment, see what the demand was, show the farmers that there was a demand. And then what was the next step?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, so then we firstly grew into tea and built this whole manufacturing plant for drying, crushing and packaging. And so there was no... Yeah, so what you see like in... yeah also in netherlands but i think everywhere in the world like you have uh maybe small herb dryers for consumers at home or super big scale mono land uh herb dries but in between there was nothing so we had to create like this whole um yeah production facilities to dry so yeah we we don't want to dry super big batches of herbs because then you'll end up in monoland again so we we need to develop dryers that could Yes, on a professional and some scale dry herbs, but not too big and not too small. And also, how do you process a dried nettle or a dried chamomile? You need to cut it and sieve it and whatever. So that's what we also learned along the way. And now we created a processing facility so we can process like from plants to herbs. So we had to figure that out. It was always in the beginning, we were like, yeah, it's easy, dry a plant and you have tea. And it's a bit more complicated than that, but still it's simple. But yeah, so demand grew and our production grew. And it was always the ambition from the start that we want to go to more products. And then from tea, we went into iced tea. And from tea, you can ferment the tea. It's kombucha. So we expanded our product portfolio. So now we have tea, iced tea, kombucha, syrup or cordial, pasta, granola, even miso and soy sauce, but then made of buckwheat. Yeah, so we've expanded our product portfolio. And also the cool thing was that... When we started, we had no clue. We thought, let's create markets for biodiversity boosting products and ways of farming. And tea was the first product we bumped into. But then we evolved and learned more about these plants. And then we thought, wow, almost 95% or most of the native plants are edible. Yes, there are some which you should not eat. They are poisonous. But... but most of them are edible and and they're not per se tasty in itself but there are different ways of making them tasty so for instance the birch leaf it's not super super tasty but smoked birch leaf oh wow and we smoke it with the bark of the birch and and so um you need to be a bit more creative but then we figured like wow there's like this whole world of products that can be made from from native plants and also a nice thing is that and we we talked to a chef he's uh diego prado he's from the alchemist uh in in copenhagen he's like top notch chef and he said a lot of products are a process So he said, you can make soy sauce from bread. Because the process of making soy sauce is that you need protein. And this protein can be converted by this koji into umami. And in Asia, they use soy for that because that's a great protein carrier. But there are way more protein carriers that you can throw into this process of making soy sauce. And also he said for tea. So yes, the English, they made us drink tea from the Camellia sinensis, which is the tea plant. But there are a lot of other plants you can throw into this process of making tea and get a similar output. And then we found out that there in the Netherlands, you have fireweed or wilgeroosje in Dutch, but fireweed, which is a weed. But it tastes like tea.

• Speaker #0

  If you dry it and it really tastes like tea, if you even put it to this same process. And that was a real eye opener for us then. And it was like, oh, yes, a lot of products are a process. And so now we make soy sauce with buckwheat because we said like, OK, if we want to make a garum or miso, but then look for plants that are logical to our ecosystem, to our environment. And then we found out, yeah, then buckwheat is a really nice protein carrier that really fits this landscape. And even hazelnut or nuts, they are full of protein. And yes, if you throw them into this koji process or the soy or garum making process, you get the umami flavor out. And that's the same thing with tea and a lot of other products. So therefore, it's really that was really eye opening to us like, oh, wow. So the possibilities are endless. So you can ferment them, smoke them, koji ferment. So there's this whole evolving toolbox of ways of creating way more flavor out of something which isn't super tasty at the plant.

• Speaker #1

  Super exciting. Yeah, super exciting. The possibility and the fact that you're starting from what we... consider it to be weeds yes and then you turn them into gold basically into like amazing products that can be used for cooking even by chefs yeah nice very nice um i really hope you're enjoying this conversation so far i'm just taking a really short break to tell you about the official partner of the podcast soil capital so the soil capital is a company that supports the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils you A really cool company. I recommend checking out what they're doing on LinkedIn or via their website. I'll put the links in the description of this episode. But in the meantime, let's get back to the conversation. I would love to retrace the whole chain in quite a lot of detail. I really want to get to the bottom of things. Like now we have the full picture. Yeah. And so maybe we should start with, well, the farmers. Yeah. So how does growing these kind of... weeds or native plants native plants is probably a nicer way to refer to them right yeah um how how does it fit into the farming system what's the the benefits and the difficulties for farmers to grow these plants yeah so good

• Speaker #0

  to say is that that we work with um with all kind of different farmers so we we work with farmers that are fully in monoland and monoculture but also we work with these regenerative agriculture pioneers that already start with agroforestry and all the way like in a picture that we we all think like wow this is this this is great um and we wanna so our model actually is also based like we want to work with everybody so we want to make this first step of of going to a wilder land or going into regenerative agriculture, we want to make that step really easy. So we say, okay, let's start with one strip. So if you want to work with us, we could start, let's put one strip of weeds. Even in the beginning, we could also say, let's start with a strip of completely mixed herbs, just to see what grows, what works. Because in the beginning, we thought it's super easy. You sow in these weeds and then they come up and you harvest. But it's not always sowing and a few months later you have the plant that you sowed.

• Speaker #1

  You mean that depending on the exact place, the weather, the soil quality and all of that, some native plants will grow naturally some months. And so what you often start with a strip of mixed ones so you can really see what works here.

• Speaker #0

  And also we ask to farmers like what kind of weeds are like annoying you so what what are the plants that that grow by themselves already because a lot of yeah camomiles so for me it was like how can chamomile be a weed but yes ask a lot of farms came out is a big weed then we said oh if camomile works here then let's let's see if we can um start uh turning them into a crop and and so the first step for us is let's start strip cropping um with the plants that fit your local area. So we have this whole list of different plants and we say like, okay, we need this. So our forecast is that we need this amount of kilo of that plant this year. And so, yes, we say we want it in strips and no pesticides, no fertilizers and whatever because they grow like weeds. That's also the cool thing. If they start growing, then they'll...

• Speaker #1

  they'll they'll grow yeah i have a couple questions at this stage um first of all when you when if you start with a mix of native plants as a test yeah um is it just for the tests or are you still going to harvest them and yeah they'll do something from it yes some flowers um

• Speaker #0

  they can grow in these mixed strips and then some of these flowers are are even harvested by hands and then we even invite our customers like do you want to help uh with the the flower harvest and then it works really well to have them in strips uh but if we go into more production then we'll convert to like a strip cropping with one strip of chamomile and one strip of gooseberries one strip of uh yarrow and okay because then there so that's that's all also the hard part like balancing economy and ecology that's so yes it's still agriculture so we believe in this this like agroforestry system where you have all these these lanes with trees bushes uh herbs and so they're still manageable and still harvestable in a in some sort of efficient way uh not as efficient as a monoculture but still it's it's still farming um but so biodiversity really benefits from it okay um yeah so we We could start with a mixed strip, but what we see is that a lot of farmers already like, oh let's do two or three or four strips of different herbs.

• Speaker #1

  They're already ready to try some things. They actually know that this kind of weeds, they grow here.

• Speaker #0

  And they also like, they like that you're like, I'm a good farmer, we can grow, we can do this. Okay, fair enough. That's fair enough, let's go. And along the way is that we figured that some herbs are really easy and some are a bit more difficult. But this challenge of like taming these wildflowers into a farming system, that's also what a lot of farmers really like. And the cool thing is that most of them are perennials. And so in the first year, it takes a bit of more, some more effort to establish them on land. But after that day...

• Speaker #1

  grow and and like the production so for most of them you just kind of harvest the top yeah and then you let let it grow back yeah yeah and it usually grows back what the next season the next year or something no in a few weeks yeah a few weeks yeah yeah they're weeks they don't want to grow they want to uh so

• Speaker #0

  that's that's a really nice so once they're they're established then uh most of them you can harvest three four or five times even a year okay um yeah

• Speaker #1

  How does that fit into different farming systems? You said that sometimes working with bigger farms to do, who are like you call it monoland. Yeah. And so how do they approach adding smaller strips of native plants to their system?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so they like most what we figure is that most of the time they have like these plots or they have like somewhere, oh, we could do it there or we have this border or we have this area which isn't. going really well last year, but maybe we'll try something new over there. And actually, a lot of farmers like it that they can start small, because by starting small, it's really manageable and easy for everybody to see, does it work? How does it work? Does it fit me? And so our model is based on, yeah, let's start small somewhere, maybe 1000 square meters is already good. And then from there, we can every year like, oh, do you want to do more? Does it work for you? What is your experience with it? And what we see is that a lot of farmers, they really love it because they see more insects coming to their land. And so it's also a very positive story for them as well because also their product or produce is not going into this anonymous, globalized chain. No, yeah, so we're making tea. So it's really local and really close. So they... are even proud of it that like yeah i see it being sold and i hear people talking about it and and and we can maybe say like go visit the farm to see it yourself to our consumers it's reconnecting them a little bit to the end consumers there's really this disconnection where yes farmers produce massive amounts of something it's anonymous it goes to different processing and then no idea between the farmer and the consumer there's absolutely no link left yes and it's it's problematic for the consumer who doesn't feel connected to where his food comes from and he's

• Speaker #1

  also problematic for the farmer who doesn't feel the reward of a connection to the people who consume their product yeah so therefore that was really nice to see that it's so it's also it feels good for a lot of farmers themselves as well nice uh and they said i want to sell it in my farm shop and i have all these nice stories about it uh so

• Speaker #0

  yeah so the the thing is yeah let's start small and see from there uh what we can do uh and so we start with herbs but yes for our granola we even have nuts and we and we have and we we use uh gooseberry and blackberry uh in in other so then we there's also demand for bushes and so step by step we're converting them into like oh let's integrate more trees and uh and bushes on your land as well i love i love that this is sort of the the gateway drug system right proposing

• Speaker #1

  something harmless easy yeah um and um and then maybe that gives them a taste for actually this is really fun to do i'm making good money from it it's bringing biodiversity back which is benefiting my system as a whole yeah let's do a bit more of this and yes

• Speaker #0

  bring them in like yeah but because of positivity with positivity instead of uh watch these movies and this is regenerative agriculture and you need to work on that way and then like yeah uh how on earth or um and by doing it step by step that works really well and our experience that most farmers they want to do more they were like okay can i do more and and what else can we do so that is super nice to to to experience just a quick quick question does it require any machinery or anything different that they already own and use so also in our model is we say like okay if we need to harvest the herbs or whatever you you can pay this if you harvest yourself and bring it to us you can pay this and if you harvest yourself and dry it yourself you get paid this so we so in our model we try to stimulate the farmers to do as much on their own land as possible. Because for us, it's really nice to get all the dried plants at the end of summer and that farmers dry it themselves. So now, but most farmers don't have dryers and they don't have harvesting machines for like this scale. But by putting this incentive in the price, what we see is that all these farmers are like, oh yeah, I created this harvest machine and we started building a dryer.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so the first year maybe you will come and harvest it and process it and then the farmer will see, well, actually I can get more money if I'm doing this myself.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, and oh, we have this old machine, which is nice. Yeah, we can manufacture it.

• Speaker #1

  Nice, nice, nice.

• Speaker #0

  And some even said, okay, I'll invest in this small harvester because after two years we see like this is the revenue coming from it. And yeah, we could easily do more. And then... yeah it's it's reasonable to to invest in the small harvester it's amazing how resourceful and creative farmers can get if you give them the right incentive right farmers are the best because they're super creative super resourceful they're they're they're really open for new things but yeah they need to make money so they're and and if you create their if you put the incentive right then then they're really open to work uh uh towards that goal you which and then yeah so i love it too to like all these farmers have their different stores so they're they're no farmer is the same and and also working with us some do it yeah they created their own harvester and their own dryer some say oh no my i i borrow it from my neighbor and i bring it to you and for now so it's

• Speaker #1

  it's super and and so when you approach a farmer you say okay you know i would like you to grow 100 kilos of chamomile for example. What's the deal like? Do you sort of put in an order for a specific price? Do they pay for the seeds? What's the sort of...

• Speaker #0

  So what we... Actually for the mixed strip, the first baby step, we say like, we give you the seeds and we'll pay you for the land, just as a starter to see if you like it. If we go into the production, Then we say like, okay, yes, in the beginning of the year, we make the forecast. We say like, okay, this year we need 500 kilos of chamomile. Can you do 100 kilos for us? That's also the thing. We don't want one farmer to do everything. We want more farmers doing a bit than one farmer doing everything. Because if we would make Dutch herbal tea, it's really easy. Go to one farmer and have monoculture of chamomile. But we want to create diversity. So then we say like, okay, can you do 100 kilos of chamomile for us? And by experience now we know that you need around this, so like 500,000 square meters, and then you can harvest maybe three or four times a year. And so with these square meters, you can expect 100 kilos. And we will pay this per kilo. So if you get to the 100 kilo, we guarantee you this revenue. So it's a fixed price. And then it's up to the farmer. And so if in this model, then the farmer needs to buy the seeds himself or herself and grow it. And that's also, therefore, there's a bit of risk at the farmer's side because if it won't grow yet, then we cannot pay for the chamomile. But if it grows, then yeah, we'll guarantee you this revenue for... And of course, there are some that it needs to be right quality and it needs to be... no pesticides and so we even do tests so that we want it to be pesticide free.

• Speaker #1

  How does that work when you have a more conventional farmer who's using chemicals on his fields and he's just adding a strip next to it? How do you ensure that this strip is pesticide free for example?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah so we want it to be pesticide free and otherwise we'll yeah we cannot we cannot take it from you but in the practice it's going really well. So we do these tests on the fields where the herbs come from. And we have found no chemicals whatsoever in strips that are in the middle of conventional farms. And we have found pesticides even on an organic farm. The crops were grown in the middle of it. And there was a super small residue still found. So it's really weird how does that work. But so yeah, they're pesticide free, even though sometimes they're grown on conventional fields. And what we've, a lot of farmers are really conscious about that as well. So they know, yeah, we won't spray in the next field if we'll harvest the herbs in weeks from there.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, awesome. So we kind of covered the farmer side of things. Yeah. I guess. So next thing you do is either harvest it yourself or collect it already harvested. Yeah. And then process the processing. I'm interested in the next.

• Speaker #0

  So the processing. So that was also an important thing. So when we said we want to become this regenerative Unilever, we believe that fresh produce or vegetables, a farmer needs to sell them or especially regenerative farm, sell them as direct as possible to any consumer. And we thought. We as wilderland, we can become of really added value if we can do some sort of processing to like weeds or whatever, and then make them more valuable. So yeah, we're always interesting, like, okay, how can we do some sort of processing and by processing it at value? Because, yeah, weeds on the land are worthless. A dried plant is already a bit more of value because you can store it for four years. And a dried plant crushed and sieved and nicely cut into tea leaves is even more valuable. And even these tea leaves packaged in a nice branded packaging, that's of super high value. And that's super interesting, but it's still dandelion. So then the lion on the field was worthless. And then the lion in a wilderland teabag is suddenly worth something. And that's super interesting to see like, okay, by processing, you can add value. And that's what we figured like, if we can, like, how can we add as much value to these worthless things? So the first step is after harvest, a farmer harvested it, then it needs to be dried on the same day. Because then the quality stays. is the best so either they dry it in a dryer they made themselves or they they have in their local area or they bring it to us and then we dry it here in amsterdam and then in yeah 30 to 48 hours the plants are completely dried um and then what i said then they can be stored for years which is really nice um And then, so then we have the dried plants. Then we put them in our like a tea processing, our small tea factory. And then we cut them into these nice tea leaves. And then from there, we'll mix them into the different blends. So we have these recipes for all our tea blends. And then like, okay, for this tea blend, we need so much meadow sweet and so much birch leaf and so much.

• Speaker #1

  You do that manually. You kind of put together the right amount of the different herbs. Yes.

• Speaker #0

  And then we have a blend. And then maybe sometimes we say, okay, from this blend of Holy Smoky, we'll send it to the kombucha maker and he makes Holy Smoky part two, which is our. holy smoky kombucha. Yeah, so we collect all the herbs, preferably dried ones. And then from there, see if we turn them into iced tea, turn them into tea, turn them into kombucha.

• Speaker #1

  So in terms of processing, you're taking care of the whole tea making part of the processing. But you just give me a clue there as to what happens next when you want to make other products like kombucha.

• Speaker #0

  For the tea processing, we're completely vertically integrated. So that from farm to tea bag, we do everything ourselves. because we invested in the tea factory tea packaging what all these things we we do it ourselves yeah actually yeah i forgot to ask about the packaging you're actually doing that yourself as well yeah so yeah we invested in a tea bagging machine there was no one in the netherlands with the tea bagging machine so first we started because with loose tea but then we figured it like 95 of percent of demand for tea is in tea bags and then we now we couldn't find anybody in the netherlands that that was still having that could do that So then we invested in our own teabag machine, imported from China. Firstly, we made them by hand, just again to test whether people would like teabags more over loose tea. So yeah, now we have two teabag machines that are pumping every day and making teabags, which is really nice.

• Speaker #1

  And the packaging?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  what? Do you make the packaging as well? The sort of paper packaging around? Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  so the paper, yeah, so that's all done by the machine. But yes, of course, there's a manufacturing party that gives us the printed. All right, all right.

• Speaker #1

  And just maybe a quick question about that, because you mentioned that you wanted every part of the chain and operation to be regenerative, to be nature positive. What about the...

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so then packaging is also really nice because then we cannot work with plastic. So all our packaging is biodegradable or compostable, which even makes it more expensive. Yeah, so therefore, so we're all really conscious about, yeah, like, okay, yeah, we cannot work with plastic teabags or plastic envelopes. So now at the moment we work with PLA, which is a compostable, but of course it can be done better, but we're waiting for the even better alternatives on that. And we would really love to work with even better packaging.

• Speaker #1

  Could we imagine... a tea packaging that is made from weed stems and stuff like that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so a lot can be done, but then it will become a million dollar product.

• Speaker #1

  It will be very expensive. You need a lot of skill to be able to start that process.

• Speaker #0

  But there's always this balancing act like, okay, yeah, million dollar product versus something that is workable. So our packaging is biodegradable, which already is a first great step. uh but of course yeah packaging is always a thing so if we can come up with better solutions we would we would do that but then again for loose tea versus tea bags is really because yeah if we would have stayed into only loose tea yeah the market would have been way more smaller then so that's always in the these are the dilemmas of course like okay but um a compostable tea bag is already a great step.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I'm pushing you into the detail here. But it's really interesting. It's really interesting.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it really matters, these minor details. And so also we made cordial or the syrup, if you put water with it, you have a nice soft drink, which is of course better than having drinks in cans. But we also make iced tea in cans. We started with loose tea and we said, oh, you can make iced tea from it. nobody's doing it and then if we say like oh yeah we have this nice can of ice tea and then people like oh i love this ice tea give me more uh and then with cans it's yeah there's um is it stasi health in dutch uh the aluminum yeah the aluminum cans yeah if you if you put it back if you um recycling yeah recycle there's this incentive on on recycling the

• Speaker #1

  I'm more of like a return thing. Like a price on the can that if you bring it back, you... Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  if you bring it back. So then we're like, okay, for now, let's work with that. But yes, of course, you can always be really critical on packaging, which we are. But it's nice to find something which is workable. But we're always trying to be more ambitious on that.

• Speaker #1

  Regeneration is a process also. It's not just a finished thing. So obviously you're... trying to get there, to be more and more regenerative in every aspect of your business. But expecting that you could be perfect from day one would be completely unrealistic, right?

• Speaker #0

  Yes, that's true. Yeah. So... Yeah, and so for the tea, we do everything ourselves. But we, like on every aspect, actually, we work together with a lot of others. So for the tea, we work together with a great tea sommelier. She's really good in making really nice flavors. For the whole processing, we work together with a company which is really specialized in processing. And then we said like, okay, how can we create this processing facility, which is super small, but still professional. And so also with all our products, we work together with like the best tastemakers, so to say. Because we said, yeah, we have these weeds and we like to work with farmers and we like to create more insects and bees and butterflies. And we like to sell nice products. But can you help us making it super tasty? So therefore, we're always open for collaborations with people that are like, yeah, we are the best in making kombucha. And it was like, OK, let's work together. And let's see what kind of kombucha comes out if we work together with our requirements and our ingredients. So yeah, for all these products, like all products we have, there's a few really good people collaborating with us that could do the production or could help us with the recipes.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. There was a question I maybe forgot to ask about the farming side of things. Are there any financial incentives for farmers? Because I know sometimes there are subsidies for biodiversity strips, for example. Is that something that can be combined with growing strips?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, they often do because there are some subsidy incentives, which is really nice. And we say, yeah, do it. But we wanted to work. without subsidies. Because what you often see is with these biodiversity strip subsidies is that as long as the subsidy is there, farmers will have the biodiversity strip. As soon as the subsidy stops, they'll stop with the strips.

• Speaker #1

  It's not really part of your model,

• Speaker #0

  your business model.

• Speaker #1

  We want it to be without subsidies. If the farmers you work with can get extra for that, great for them. But yeah.

• Speaker #0

  But if that subsidy stops, we still want it to be as... good so that that it's still profitable for them to to continue um and therefore we believe like if if we can create the market and if other companies start copying us and that dutch consumers demand local tea then it's truly sustainable because then um it works by itself

• Speaker #1

  yeah then the core of the model is really regenerative yeah awesome so you've been doing this for what four or five years yeah five years yeah five years now so you've been looking at weeds differently right yeah so you your eye must have changed like what happens when you walk in down the street do you now spot plants and herbs in the street and you think oh that would make a nice uh a nice salad or a nice tea or something like that literally did like so in the first

• Speaker #0

  So yes, of course, Daan and I, we love nature and we've always been outside and doing things. But plants was for me a blind spot. And the more we look into these plants, then suddenly you start seeing them everywhere. And yes, of course, it's like, oh, I want to work with this plant someday. And this is nice as well. And how does this taste? So it's really like this whole world opened that was already always super close by. Because these plants have been here forever. But if you start looking at them in a different way, then it's super cool.

• Speaker #1

  It's crazy how our eye can change. Like you can walk down the street. If you've studied architecture, you will notice all of the architecture detail. If you're into street art, you will notice all of the street art. But if you're into...

• Speaker #0

  wild plants you will notice that it's growing everywhere and then the seasons are super short so they're not four seasons in a year they're like 52 seasons in a year like every week or every two weeks new flowers bloom and they they take their stage and they're like what you've now you're blooming and then they're gone and new and so it's super cool it's really uh yeah there's so much to see and even still now that i discover new plants And that suddenly then I see these plants everywhere in that short time of the year that they take their stage and bloom. And I was like... have they been here always because now i see them everywhere but but they have been there forever um so yeah the endless less less evolution of seeing more things is super cool awesome yeah yeah yeah so yeah we've traced most of it already right from the farmer the processing you do most of it yourself then you collaborate with other people like the people making the kombucha yeah uh you mentioned pasta yeah is that also something you yes um

• Speaker #1

  you work with yeah with uh yeah so we work with a pasta maker who is also really into regenerative grains and and wanted to do it right then we said let's work together and even put some herbs into the pasta so yeah okay so the pasta are not made from herbs they're made from yeah so the pasta is made with uh more ancient uh grain types so and and it's a variety of grains so there's not one grain in it so the best pasta from italy is monograno Only one grain. And we make multigrano pasta. So we say like, let's include a wide variety of different, way older grain types that are grown regeneratively into a pasta and even add some herbs for extra flavor. And the cool thing is that about these grains is that the grain in itself doesn't have that much ecological value. So it's not blooming like buckwheat does. they have buckwheat blooms and therefore a lot of pollinators it attracts a lot of pollinators but the grains they don't um but the the more older variety or ancient grain types that have been growing here for a hundred and more a thousand years in our in our landscape uh they grow there's more space in between the grains so therefore it's more space for weeds to uh in between the grains so therefore the ecological value of a field with ancient grain is way more higher so therefore we say like oh yeah it's a really good idea to to stimulate pasta with the older more variety of grains really cool and the taste it tastes very different from the pasta we're used to yeah no it tastes it's it's similar but better and especially with the herbs inside it's it really adds something to it yeah okay cool

• Speaker #0

  yeah um so yeah i guess i guess we we talked about the whole chain now i want to talk about the selling marketing yeah like the things which is huge we started with that saying that yeah creating the market was probably the hardest part yeah the most important one yeah and that's yeah so that is still the hardest part because yeah again

• Speaker #1

  there are so many examples of The hardest part is not how to create an agroforestry system, how to work regeneratively. These things are all done and can be done, but the hardest part is selling it. So, yeah, if you work in this regenerative local chain of products, always, which have more labor in them because they're not super efficient or not skilled to like this big industrialized way. So, therefore, there's always more labor. So, therefore, more costly. Yeah, and one thing to work around that is by keeping the chain as short as possible. If you can sell it direct to consumer, the margins and it's way more interesting. So we started direct to consumer because of this shorter chain. But again, direct to consumer has some disadvantages for consumers as well because not all people are used buying tea and kombucha and other products online because that's... So therefore, we also work together with small retail shops, like farm shops or like mostly independent, smaller shops. We don't want to go to the big supermarkets.

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  And now, yeah, we have this whole network of small farm shops and other like nice delicacies shops around the country that love to work with our products. We have quite some sales going through our website. We have the restaurants, bars, and cafes, and gifting. So actually we have four channels, direct-to-consumer, small retail or quality retail, restaurants, bars, or Ausha, that's how we call it in Dutch, and end-of-year gifting. So these four things are really, and actually it's all 25% of our revenue coming from these channels. which is also nice because therefore we have like also our business model is diversified. So some restaurants, some retail, some direct to consumer. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So yeah, you're diversifying the sources with a lot of different farmers and then you're diversifying also the outputs. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  because also we want from a traditional like business perspective, you could say like, oh yeah, become a tea brand or become an iced tea brand and scale a few flavors and become this really big iced tea brand. But then again, if we would scale like only a few. products then yeah you also scale these ingredients in the country and then but we want to create an abundance or an a wide variety of plants into the fields or the farmers we work with so therefore we need also a variety of products so some kombuchas work really well in super top star michelin restaurants and some products they work really well in more easy going uh Ausha and some work well in so that's also the nice things like oh this product super niche but super nice and super good for biodiversity oh yeah we can sell that only direct to consumer it works really well or we can we this product works really well in this type of retail.

• Speaker #0

  Right, you can tap into different markets by having a huge diversity of products that you're making. Yes, yes.

• Speaker #1

  So the advantage we are looking for is that we want to have this strong brand and that we want to have this super nice network of market partners. So, okay, yeah, for this product, we'll send them an email and because this works really well in their... bar or whatever.

• Speaker #0

  And so in this model, like I said, you have a wide range of farmers for the inputs and a wide range of markets for the outputs, but you're still one unit in between. So you still kind of control. Would you imagine if you had to scale the company much bigger to actually multiply hubs like yours here, but having other people in other places or even countries? Yes.

• Speaker #1

  So, yeah. So our model is so, yeah, we want to scale internationally because the name Wilderland can work all over the world. And. And the cool thing is all over the world you have local native plants that are edible, which you can turn into really nice and tasty products. So for the future we see these like maybe it's bioregions, maybe it's countries, maybe it's ecosystems that within an ecosystem or within a country you set up some production facility and contact local farmers. And then by eating, processing, growing all these native plants in that area. So yes, and already we have two farmers in Belgium. They started working with us first as farmers only producing for us, but now they started their own brand inspired by us, and they're now actually copying us in Belgium, which we really think is super nice. So actually, yeah, for the future, we see either way, people... copy the way we work and and yes do it do it locally in your in your local area or we will maybe we'll franchise and say uh you can do this in your country uh on the same way we did like less monocultures more native plants creating super tasty products out of them and then let's

• Speaker #0

  go thank you so much for listening this far into the episode if you're enjoying this podcast and you would like to support me and my work, you can actually do that in just five seconds. It's very simple. Whichever platform you're using right now to listen to this, just click on the deep seat page and hit the follow or subscribe button. It actually makes a huge difference for me and I would be very grateful. So thank you so much for that. And let's get back to it. Can we talk a little bit about the business model and the numbers? I don't know how transparent you are on all of that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we're quite transparent on that.

• Speaker #0

  I recently read an article that was saying that on average products in the supermarkets, only 9% of the final price was going to the... farmer. I think that's the number I read like very recently. I was wondering how does it break down for you? If you take maybe one key product, your tea for example, as an example can you sort of break down the different costs and how much of it goes to the farmer and so on?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah maybe for tea that's a good thing. I think, yeah, so on average, our tea, like one pack of tea, is sold for 5 euros and 50 cents as a retail consumer price. And then most of the time, retailers or shops, they want 30 to 35, sometimes 40% margin. So that's already going for... for shops. So we sell it mostly for like €3.20 or €3, €3.50. That's our like a B2B price for tea. Then there's a few costs. There's the ingredients, then there's the processing, then there's the packaging. So the packages like the label and all these things, they cost around Between 15 and 50 cents. And then put it in, whether it is counting 20 tea bags and put them in a box or weighing 40 grams of loose tea and then put it in a bag and sealing it, put the label on. That costs around 20 cents as well or sometimes 30 cents, depending on who is the packer. And the price of the herbs in this bag are around one euro.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. And so between the different types of costs that you've mentioned here, do you still manage to make a decent margin for yourself and to have a profitable business? Yes.

• Speaker #1

  So last year we did some profit, only small, but it was a really big achievement that we were profitable.

• Speaker #0

  Including your own salaries. Yes,

• Speaker #1

  including salaries and everything. So that's, yeah, and we're having a small salary. So, but of course it's nice that it was profitable and we did 1 million euros in revenue last year. So now we're growing into a point that is becoming quite seriously, which is really nice. And we think, yeah, it can be way bigger. So, yeah, that's super nice to see that it's working out and that. our brand becomes more known and that people really know why it's more expensive but that they really feel that it's good and and the the biggest greatest thing is that that the quality is really perceived well so that that people like yeah wow these products are really tasty and and the quality of the taste is super good and that's actually the the most um the the best thing that could have happened is that absolutely yeah it's not people so it's not people buying it because it's good for the world but it's people buying it because it's super tasty yeah we didn't even talk about that yet yeah that's that's the key you're selling a product you want the product yeah really good quality people to enjoy it yes and that and that worked out so there are michelin star chefs working with our products because of the really

• Speaker #0

  nice quality that's that's amazing i mean obviously you're it's yeah you're telling me that the farmers are super happy you get great feedback from them your consumers are really happy to your profitable business that is growing so it's going pretty well right yeah yeah but of course we're always saying it can be faster why not uh but of course it's

• Speaker #1

  growing really well already and that's super nice but with all these challenges of course but uh but still it can be done that can be done cool

• Speaker #0

  It's a great example. I hope that people can listen to this and maybe get inspired to start their own businesses in different places around the world.

• Speaker #1

  Copy us.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, do it. Awesome. And how many employees do you have?

• Speaker #1

  Now we have eight people full time. Including yourself? Including myself. Yeah, so eight people on the payroll and Dana as well. So that's eight people. But I think that the team of people that we are working with on a daily basis is around 20. because we work together with a um yeah social or sheltered workplace here pantar in amsterdam that's so the people that are doing fulfillment and packaging and all the and that's also around a team of like five to ten people a day uh that are constantly working in our operation and we also work with a nice creative agency that so there's like this whole There's a lot of people contributing on the site apart from these eight people.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I see. Yeah, yeah. So you're also creating jobs. Yes. And interesting jobs as well.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, really. Yeah, we get a lot of job applications.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, awesome.

• Speaker #1

  People want to work. Yeah, we need to grow.

• Speaker #0

  Awesome. That's so cool. And we talked a lot about Commonland. And this episode is probably going to be released just after the conversation I had with Will and I from Commonland. It kind of links up very nicely in the story. And she explained... the the four returns framework um and it was a little bit hard to put into context and to practice and so it would be a great opportunity to do that if you could maybe assess you know yeah your business according to the principles

• Speaker #1

  yes so yeah so the common land principles they say like three zones 20 years four returns so three zones that you have an economic zone a combined zone and a natural zone in a landscape and if if you look into the netherlands it's part mostly economic activity and a little bit natural zone. We are creating the combined zone where economy and ecology meet. So that's what we do on the land, working together with farmers. And we want to establish long-term relationships with the farmers so that we can really work towards these agroforestry systems where more trees, bushes, everything is integrated into it. And by making it long-term, that it's really interesting for them to do. divert to these ways of working. And while doing, by working with mostly native plants and going into agroforestry, strip cropping, we create natural capital because the plants that we do or the ingredients that we work with, we optimize all our ingredients, all our products for as much insects as possible. So if you plant chamomile, you get the chamomile butterfly for free with it because the chamomile butterfly lives only on chamomile and 100 other species that are attracted by chamomile. So that is the natural capital we are creating. So nature returns, bees, butterflies. Then we're creating social capital because we're creating jobs. We create income for farmers. We're creating... financial capital because we are adding like this whole chain from farmer to end consumer in between a lot of value is added what we said like dandelion just dandelion is worthless in an economical way but by making kombucha or tea from it a lot of value is added so you're you're creating financial return And the most important thing is actually the inspirational return, because we want to work with a lot of farmers. We want to show to consumers that it can be done. So therefore, the return of inspiration is a really big aspect of what we do, that, yeah, it can be done. And it can be done on a super small scale. And if you want to contribute, join us. So... So yeah, you have the four returns, return of inspiration, return of natural capital, return of social capital, and return of financial capital. And by building nature and then the rest will follow.

• Speaker #0

  That's an amazing demonstration of the model. Thank you so much. That really helps. And yeah, talking about the natural capital. So you mentioned the insects, the butterflies and the bees and all of that. There's also the nature in the soil. The biodiversity, the microbiology in the soil, by having perennial plants as well, and not having to work the soil every year. Like how much you're boosting that natural capital inside of the soil must be amazing.

• Speaker #1

  It's amazing, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Are you measuring any of that? Trying to measure the biodiversity that comes back into the strips or in the soil? Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  we would love to measure that. And we would love to make claims about it, but it's really difficult. So if anybody is listening and has ideas on how to measure biodiversity, we would love to. hear that. Currently, there is some data about plant-insect relations. So for butterflies, butterflies are super specific for their host plant. a butterfly only can put its eggs on a super specific plant. So if you place that plant, you get the butterflies coming back. So there are some strong plant-insect relations that you can say like, okay, if we plant more fennel you get the queen page butterfly if you plant more chamomile you get the chamomile butterfly and so there is something to say about that and that's also nice we already seeing that in the field that we that we plant these these plants and that one season later a few years later you see these butterflies uh showing up in these fields and it's like wow these butterflies are here because we planted these plants so yes there is some data and we try to communicate that data as well so with all our products we say we call it collecting species because that's what biodiversity is about and more species is better so we we have on our website this figure of how many insect species we contribute with yeah cool yeah um where can you people find you and your products if they'd like to they're they like what i heard today they're interested and they want to make a nice gift to a family member yes that's a great question wilderland.com wilder um uh streep land.com or yeah google for wilderland that's of course all the links will be put in the description of this episode so you just click in the description and i'll put the links but yeah yeah wilderland wilderland.com yeah uh then you can find out and look and find us there. We're on Instagram as well. If you want to see everything in practice and all the pictures and whatever, just look us up. And in the Netherlands, we have, yeah, what I said, a network of shops and restaurants that we work with. You can even find the map on the website for where to sell it if you want to like, if you want to purchase it offline. And for internationally, yeah, we also ship internationally. And if you're interested in starting your own Wilderland, just let us know. Maybe one day we'll collaborate.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, for sure. I'll leave your contact as well in the description and the website. I guess there's a contact form on the website. You'll find me. And I really do hope that people do contact you either for selling your products or for starting a business with you and stuff like that.

• Speaker #1

  Really nice.

• Speaker #0

  Really awesome stuff. Really, really uplifting story to hear. you know a positive story that benefits everyone benefits humans benefits nature benefits farmers tasty healthy products i mean it's yeah it's actually quite simple yeah but it's yeah it's awesome yeah congratulations for all that i love it thanks um if there's like one one key message you would like to share with people what would it be go native go native okay well to the point yeah all right thank you so much it's been a great conversation I loved it and great to meet you as well so thank you thanks