Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Imagine this, you're a really passionate and motivated young farmer who just spent the last few years studying agroecology, agronomy, biology and all of that. And you've done a few internships on regenerative farms and you're ready to start your own farm. And that's a great energy and a great place to start from, right? But you're going to have one major problem right from the start and it's being able to buy farmland. and the farm. Because, well, you see, farmland has been treated as a very profitable financial asset. And the consequence of that is that the price of farmland has been going up so much that it's now completely unaffordable for a young farmer who'd like to start a regenerative farm. And so looking into solutions to that problem, I came across a really interesting solution proposed by an organization called Lenteland. And that leads us to today's episode, which is a conversation with Elin Veninga from Lentoland. And together we really get to the bottom of the issues around land ownership and the really interesting solutions proposed by Lentoland as a completely alternative model. I'm not going to say more. It's a really interesting conversation. I definitely recommend listening until the end. And this episode was produced in partnership with Soil Capital. I'm your host, Raphael, and this is the Deep Seat Podcast. Hi, Eline.

• Speaker #1

  Hi.

• Speaker #0

  Welcome to the Deep Seat Podcast. Great to have you here.

• Speaker #1

  Thanks. Nice to meet you.

• Speaker #0

  Could you start by briefly introducing yourself for the listeners?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, well, I'm Eline. I'm working as a chef de mission at Lenteland. As a young child, I always go back to my childhood because I was already, I think, a little activist coming out of my mother. So during my school time, I organized sometimes like actions for problems in other parts of the world where people had hunger or suffered other kind of harsh living conditions. But I think where my journey all started was in the artisanal business. butcher shop of my grandpa, Peter Verbaas. And there I learned a lot about the food system, or that was my first connection to the food system. He worked together with a lot of farmers in the neighborhood of his shop. And he had a very much love for all living creatures. And at the same time, he of course made a product that was a little bit different. But he did that with so much respect. and also with so much inclusivity for the community he was serving, that I think that made a big impression on me. And also how he treated his customers with a lot of attention, whereby he also got the loyalty of the people. And I think my road started there. And during my study time, I was very interested in everything that was concerning. humanitarian intervention, human security. So I did my thesis about Afghanistan, the war there. But eventually I found out that I wanted to make a positive impact on the living conditions closer by. And I think that everything starts with food and eventually actually everything starts with farming. So after a long road through the supermarket world, I found my way back to where actually it all started, that I want to make a very positive contribution, which is also a contribution to root causes of everything that concerns inequality and unsustainability. And that's, I think, regenerative farming. Once I found out and I got in contact with regenerative farming, it was so inspiring how many problems this can solve, not only considering the ecological state of our planet, but especially also our own well-being, I think.

• Speaker #0

  Do you still remember having the lightbulb moment about regenerative farming? Or do you remember the moment where you first heard about it and thought this?

• Speaker #1

  this is it well i actually i think i was already connected to people who who were practicing regenerative farming but back then it didn't have a name yet and i also believe that all the agro ecological farmers like in the bio world and the biodynamic farming already working through these practices but i think what helps by stating regenerative farming you is that it concerns a holistic approach to things that are going on in the world. And it brings us into connection with the soil. And I think that's a very powerful way of looking to things, because our soul is directly connected to our living environment and directly connecting to our own guts, which have an incredible involvement on our mental and our... physical well-being and they think yeah if you if you get to know more about these things then I think there's for me there was no way back by putting all I have in in this path.

• Speaker #0

  Right and that led you to eventually start Lentoland?

• Speaker #1

  No well Lentoland was founded by Wouter Veer an impact investor from Rotterdam. And he already had a very, I think, broad and critical vision about what was going on in the world. And he was able to create a very interesting model that could actually serve a lot of people. And so he had a talk to a lot of farmers and a lot of people working on the commons. And then he found out, well, what if I create a community-serving model in which also... people can have a direct contribution into the transitioning to a new way of farming and therefore also creating a fair food system.

• Speaker #0

  Amazing, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  That's amazing, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And I want to come back later to the Lend-a-Land model and really try to understand in detail how it works and all of that. But before we do that, I'd love to start by kind of setting the stage on the topic of... access to land and the declining number of farmers. I wanted to ask you this question. What do you see as the main reason for that trend?

• Speaker #1

  I think the declining number of farmers largely can be attributed actually to the economic challenges the farming faces. Current farming is really industrialized and very capital intensive. And that creates a lot of barriers for small scale farmers. traditional farmers. So it creates barriers for people within farming families to take over from their parents, but also creates barriers for new farmers to enter the stage, actually. And I think it's also a culture or image problem. I think many young people perceive farming as like low income, high risk profession with a lot of uncertainty because policy is so moving around all the time and has done a lot of damage, I think, too. And at the same time, you have to work really, really hard. And that's, I think, therefore it makes for people, it's an unattractive career path. And a very big other problem, and that's also a reason why Lentiland was founded, is that The access to land is very difficult because farming land, especially in the Netherlands, I think the farming land in the Netherlands is the most expensive of Europe. Therefore, it's hardly impossible to buy land to start your own farm. And there is not a lot of support for new entrants. It's very capital intensive business. Yeah, and I think all these factors create like... pretty big decline in the amount of farmers.

• Speaker #0

  That's the reason why, I mean, it seems to be easier for really large land owners and farm managers to acquire more land when a farm goes on sale, rather than for a young farmer or someone who's not from a farming background, but really wants to get into farming to actually acquire that land. It's much easier. You mentioned a lot of barriers for succession and for... Young farmers getting into farming. Could you maybe give us a bit more detail about what kind of barriers we're talking about?

• Speaker #1

  Well, what I was talking about is like the price of land, which is really high. So you need big loans even to take over the company or the farm of your own parents. And these big loans have a lot of interest. Their interest rate is also high. So that makes that you start out with already a very big amount of money. You have to create as revenue every month. So then the only solution is mostly that you put a very intensive way of farming on the field, which is also very costly because the only way to create this intensive farming is with pesticides and with fertilizers. And then the farm is not... creating the income but actually all the other parties surrounding them are creating the income.

• Speaker #0

  Sorry I'm trying to understand why the fact that land is so expensive and that you have to take such a big loan with high interest to buy it means that you necessarily have to go into intensive farming. Is it because the bank kind of only agrees to give you that loan if you

• Speaker #1

  propose a business plan that include that kind of farming or yeah yeah that's also a problem regenerative farming is in some way it's it's old but it's also pretty new so the business bottles have not proven itself yet banks are very risk averse and i think they are also not that progressive in looking at these kind of business models so they think it's high risk but the the the funny part is that it's actually low risk because you are investing a lot of value in creating healthy soil that on the long term will actually help you out it makes you re-silent against all kinds of climates it's

• Speaker #0

  kind of crazy when you think about it because degrading your productive capital which is your soil is viewed as a safe investment which is in economics should be, I mean, just a no-no, right? Yeah. Destroying your productive capital. Yeah. And the opposite, which is regenerating it, making it more resilient for the future, is seen as a risky investment. It's kind of a...

• Speaker #1

  It's crazy.

• Speaker #0

  Upside down, right? Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And I cannot understand that we are still talking about this. And I really cannot understand that still a lot of banks don't get this because they have all the knowledge. So why don't they, you know... invite us to talk it over. Why don't they look at our business models? Although we have not maybe factually proven it because we don't exist long enough, but then, okay, maybe they come back in a couple of years and we will prove that these business models can be very successful eventually. And then it really matters because that's one of the biggest problems. That's also one of the problems why I left the supermarket business. Because the focus is solely on financial value creation. And that's a very riskful way of thinking with everything that is going on in this world.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, not looking at the long-term resilience of a system in the face of climate change is actually very risky.

• Speaker #1

  Because if we proceed on this path, then eventually we won't even have soil to produce any food anymore.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. We know, people accept now as a fact that we only have a certain number of harvests left, what, 50 harvests left or something like that. Because if we continue on the same trajectory, in 50 years there will be no more soil. It's crazy that we just accept that as a fact.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's crazy. And the loss of biodiversity. But also, and that I think we need more to see more about the relationship between the health of the soil and the health of our own guts. also our health costs are outrageously increasing. And this is, at a certain point, we cannot pay for this anymore as a society. And therefore we need to take into account what solution also for that matter regenerative farming can be. Because it has a higher nutrient density. It has far more diversity, which is good for your guts. And I'm stating this because I believe that there are more people concerned about their own health than there may be people concerned about the health of the planet. And I don't care which way we are going to achieve this, but we have to achieve it. So... Therefore, also this part of our own well-being, our own health in relation to this way of farming is important to make or to state.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let me just take a very short break from this conversation to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, Soil Capital. So Soil Capital is a company that promotes... the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils. They're a really cool company. I'm a big fan and I'm super proud to be partnering with them for the podcast. So yeah, so far we've established that, well, there's a declining number of farmers. That farming is often seen not as a very attractive career for young people. And for those who choose farming, whether it's... inheriting a farm or whether it's getting into farming it's there's a lot of um obstacle to the path there it's very difficult to get access to land because it's extremely expensive yeah and if we acknowledge that this is a problem that we need to reverse it tells me two things that one we need to make farming much more attractive as a profession and we need to sort of create pathways to accessing lands and farms for people who want to right and As far as I know, this is kind of the heart of what you're doing with Lintelant, right? Yeah, exactly. Great. I'm on the right path, at least.

• Speaker #1

  You are on the right path.

• Speaker #0

  So yeah, I would love it if you could explain the model. How does it work?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, well, maybe one step back, like our organization was indeed founded to explore how land stewardship can be reimagined to support regenerative farming. but also inclusive farming models, because sometimes the critic of this way of farming is is that it can be a little bit elite and you have to have quite some money to afford this kind of food. But our farms work for instance with solidarity payment, so people also with less money can buy the food and other people with more farm with money can then actually pay for the people with lesser food. So this inclusivity. Also in the way you can participate, I think it's a really strong key factor. And that it is focused on creating benefit for everything, all living creatures is also very powerful. And that you take care together with, you know, the principle of the commons is also a very big part of Lentiland. And what we did is we created a foundation. that actually gives out the loans for every farm, and every farm is a cooperative. They give out the loans for the cooperative to buy the farm. And then the farm is then, from that moment, a cooperative that can give out certificates for the community to buy. So the farm eventually becomes community-owned. And these certificate holders, so the community, they're going to be, is then the economic owner of the farm. The farmers are the creative owners of the farm. So they are the ones that can develop their own business plans. And then they are in the board of the farm and they do the daily management of everything they initiate. And then Lenteland is there as the, how do you call that, legal owner. to not actually Lentiland itself, but the mission of Lentiland, in order to ensure that for at least 200 years ahead, so seven generations, it's a more of indigenous way of taking care, we ensure that this way of farming practice that actually benefits ecosystems will be practiced on this farm. So you have the three-party way of ownership. And I think that is a very solid way of running the farm. And we ensure that the farmers have their base income. So and get also the loans for the exploitation of the farm. So they don't have to worry in the first years that they're making losses because everything is an investment for the future. And we now see that around in five years or so, the farmers break even and begins to make the first profit. And then the farmers and the certificate holders profit can be beneficial to them. them as well yeah yeah okay yeah so initially you said that the cooperative is is securing a loan right yeah the the uh how you call that foundation of land to land is a foundation securing the law alone and the national cooperative that's what i i'm also working for is there to support the farms to help them in starting up to advise them on the business plans um and on the daily management and also Eventually, we'll be helping them out once the production will be at a certain stage. Then together with other farms of Lenteland, we can maybe make a joint venture of processing food, doing distribution and sales. Actually, the Lenteland Corporation is also a development vehicle for that. At the same time, maybe that's also good to state. is that the Lente Land Corporation is also a means for people to invest in. Usually people that want to invest in more than one farm or live a little bit further away from a farm. They can also buy certificates in the national corporation. And the national corporation is then buying certificates of all the Lente Land farms. And the other part of the budget then goes to giving out loans for the exploitation of the farm.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so there's two levels of investments. Either you can invest in the national company.

• Speaker #1

  Or direct in a farm.

• Speaker #0

  In a specific farm, right? Yeah. How do you find investors? What is usually the draw, the thing that brings them in? Well,

• Speaker #1

  actually, our farmers are responsible for that. Of course, we help them. And for the national corporation, we do that ourselves. I think... by creating more and more public awareness about regenerative farming, what Land Alliance is doing, why we think that this collective initiative and the way we make citizen investment in this way of farming possible to create more awareness about it. And we want to show people what the positive impact is. So we create meetups for people, all kinds of events. to inspire people and to show them which way they can participate. But we are now also starting an impact monitoring program because we really want to show on an ecological way, but also in the social impact we make, what the results are. And I think that will help gain more also investors.

• Speaker #0

  Right. If you can maybe really... transparent and have the data to really show the positive impact you're having is going to maybe motivate more investors to say okay this is a solid model here and I'm really happy to invest in this yeah how you can directly be part of the change I think that is really important and in terms of investors are we talking more about individuals who decide to invest in a local business or organizations who make bigger investments or is it both both but usually more citizens

• Speaker #1

  And I think that is the power of Lentoland too. And it's a really big achievement of our farmers because their stories and their hard work and also their vision on ecosystem restoration, what they're doing and the healthy food they create. I think nothing works better than that they share that. And at the same time, we also get support for starting up all these activities from a couple of bigger organizations. But in the end, we want to become independent. So if we have more farms, then the fee that every farm pays to us for all the support will be enough to ensure that we can keep on supporting them also in future.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, as a small individual who doesn't have much budget but wants to get involved, is this still possible? What is the kind of smallest investment you can... Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  usually we start out with five certificates of 100 euros. So your investment will cost you then 500 euros. And that is, yeah, that is the amount of money you need to get in. But it can have either your budget you want to invest.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, you can obviously from that's the minimum and then you can invest as much as you want. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  not as much as you want. Because of course, we don't want one person to have the certificates of all because we want the you know, everybody should be be able to participate. But I think you understand. Okay,

• Speaker #0

  yeah. And How do you participate then? Let's imagine we're a few hundred different investors from the community living around that farm. We all decided that it was a worthwhile investment for us. Do we actually participate in decision making or how does it work for me? Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  to a certain extent you can participate in what's going on. But the farmer is the creative owner of his own plan. And he will consult you about things. Yes. And if there are really big investments or maybe also adjustments made to the plan, that will be shared with the certificate holders, with the co-owners of the farm. And then, of course, every year you look at the budget together and to the results together. But I think participating is far more... in attaining fruits and vegetables from the farm or sleeping over or getting a tour or working together on the land. I think that is far more relevant usually for people as a reason to become a co-owner.

• Speaker #0

  Okay so if you are a co-owner you get invited to activities like that? You participate into the farm or is that something extra that you can decide to do?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's something extra you can decide to do. So there is no obligation. So it's also not the case, comparing to some other initiatives, that you can only become a customer if you are a co-owner, that is all separated from each other, to create the most inclusive model as possible. And I think that's also very needed in order to I don't know, inspire and convince a lot of different people and invite people to get a feeling about what's going on on the farm.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so that's from the investor side. Now for the farmers, you said that you were in the process now of selecting a farmer. So how does that work?

• Speaker #1

  Well, what we usually do is we set out the role description. For most of the farms, that's of course the same. So there are certain standards which we ask for. I think it's a very complex job to be a farmer and especially a farmer of a multifunctional farm. So you need a lot of skills. And therefore, we actually are looking for teams of farmers. It's absolutely not possible to do this on your own. You don't want to do this on your own. So we're looking for different skills, like a very practical and theoretical knowledge about regenerative farming. So it's about embodied knowledge too. You have to have the experience of working on the land in order for yourself to know if you're able, capable of doing this. If your physical health makes it doable. If you really like it, if you also like it, not only when the sun shines, but also it's really like the more normal Dutch weather. It can be rather wet and a little bit gray. And at the same time, you also need knowledge about financial modeling. And more especially, you have to have entrepreneurship in you. I think what we found out these past years. is that that is one of the factors that really makes or breaks the success. So if you are willing and capable of taking risk, of doing pilots, trying new things, and then adjusting it to the situation you are facing, but that you are also good in communication skills because you are the one as a head farmer that is also responsible for the crowdfunding. you know, to attract the co-owners of the farm. and therefore you uh you must like it to share your story and to give presentations and tours and tell people um about your vision so yeah that's already and that's and then i'm not even done so yeah you imagine and because we found out this is a difficult

• Speaker #0

  I think, assignment. We also want to help farmers on their path to this because it's a life-changing decision to choose to become a regenerative farmer. And we want to help people on this path by now starting a year program. So starting from January, we're offering this to people who have interest in to become a farmer. So we're going to help them in theoretical knowledge, We want to create places on farms where they can do internships, gain the practical knowledge, but also in creating strong teams. So in the networking, finding people who you want to do this together with and helping them with their statement purpose, with their holistic life view. I think it's important to have a good view on that for yourself.

• Speaker #1

  before you start because it helps in i think finding people that align with that okay so yeah on the one hand you have uh so this selection process so if i retrace the the steps here you you buy the farm and then you look for the farmer yeah

• Speaker #0

  um and so yeah this is how it went how it went so far yeah and maybe in future we will find a community that's already found a farm and uh or a farmer that wants a farm and is really suitable for the job. So I think it can have different forms.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, yeah, that's the current one is this. You buy a farm, then you have applications from farmers, they have to propose an application with a plan of what they're going to do with the farm. Explain who the team is, what is their experience, their vision for the farm.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, they write a letter, they write their motivation, they send in their CV, their curriculum vitae. and already a base plan for the place they want to start with or to start at. And then we have interviews online, there's an information gathering on the farm so people can really connect to the place and feel if they can root there. And then we have presentations of plants with each other, which is really special actually, because normally in these kind of interview processes everything is separated and we choose to actually bring together all the solicitants so they can also you know gain ideas from each other.

• Speaker #1

  Okay so if they don't end up not getting the farm but they've met the team who did maybe they can learn from what the proposition was.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah and they can proceed in realizing their dream and another good part about this is that we ask them Who do you think that fits here best?

• Speaker #1

  Right. Oh, that's a tough question because you're probably very passionate.

• Speaker #0

  You have to go out of yourself and really look, okay, what is best for this place and what is best for the community actually.

• Speaker #1

  I have a tiny, tiny favor to ask from you. If you're enjoying this conversation and you would like to support... my work and this podcast, you can actually do that in just five seconds. Whichever platform you're using right now to listen to this episode, just click on the deep seat page and then click on the subscribe or follow button. It actually makes a huge difference for me, for the growth of the podcast and for my ability to keep bringing high quality conversations with amazing guests to your ears every week. Thank you so much in advance and let's get back to the conversation. You're also looking ahead. You know that you're going to be starting new farms. You said that you already have the sixth and seventh one in the plans. And so you're already thinking of the next generation of farmers. You're already proposing trainings on the different farms so that you're sort of training young farmers to be in the best possible situation to make a great proposal for future farms. Right. That's really cool. Yeah. So how do you see this model? growing. Sort of what is your vision for the future of Lentoland and this specific model?

• Speaker #0

  Well, if I dream, and you have to keep on dreaming because otherwise, yeah, what are you, what is life worth without dreaming, I sometimes think. Well, I really envision for the future that the food system has a human skill again and a human face. With farmers, and I think the farming job is actually far more attractive if you have the connection to your customers and for the customers to know who is growing your food. So I think, I hope that farming in future will be far more community oriented because I think current farmers are very lonely and I feel them. They are lonely. They have to work their asses off for a very low income. And I think these people are so important. And I'm now talking about all farmers. That's so important for our future, for our living environment. That actually they should have a stage. And they should be taken care of far more than we are doing now. We really need more solidarity in our... food system and I think regenerative farming with community-owned farms can help out on this matter and therefore we need to create more access to land and Lentoland cannot do this on its own so therefore I'm also reaching out to the banks but also to our government because they have to take their responsibility in this and it's actually going again the total wrong way. The government wants to invest in technology again, in technology above helping out supporting farmers long term in making this transition. But I think we also have to look to ourselves. Every one of us is a consumer and with everything you eat and everything you buy, where you buy it, it doesn't even matter. But every time you can make a vote. for which kind of food system you want and what impact you can make. So in the end, I think, and I dream of a change of culture and I hope that what is valued is, I think, healthy guts above Gucci bags, above having a very nice phone and that we realize that Our own health is so precious that that way even we want to support this new farming system.

• Speaker #1

  Right. Yes. And the farmers that you're working with, if you compare them to like other farmers that you've met and you said that their situation is really difficult. They're struggling sometimes physically, mentally, economically. Do you find that by farming regeneratively? as part of a team and in a community-based model that they are better off physically, mentally, financially? It's a tough question.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's a tough question, not a tough question, but I think it's difficult for me to answer that. And I think our farmers should answer that themselves. But of course, we are aware of this and I think we pay rather a lot of attention. to their well-being and are concerned also about it because we know it's a tough job to start this kind of farms. But I think that the solidarity with the support of Lenteland, with the support of all the co-owners of the farm, with the support of everyone that's a customer of this farm, that everybody is actually literally carrying them in the steps they have to take.

• Speaker #1

  The model you're proposing here is really interesting, right? For all the reasons I just cited, because we're talking about regenerative farming, very diverse mixed models which are great for biodiversity, for the environment, they produce healthier products, they bring the community together around food and the farm, I mean they have all of these benefits and you've been able to grow it in just a few years to already almost seven farms in the near future. Do you see a potential for really growing much bigger? Do you not want that? Or is there a bottleneck to that happening?

• Speaker #0

  I think that bigger is not always better. But I think we can create a lot more places in the Netherlands. And eventually, we do hope that our model will be taken over by other people starting their own farms with this model. So... we are not here to make the Lentiland brand as big as possible. I think that's an important thing to state. I think it's also very different than what is in the old economy going on usually. But I think if we get this community interest and hopefully also interest from policymakers, I think then it is possible to create far more places and to scale up. And I really hope that once we are able to show more and more results about how these farms and how farmers in general can be the governors of our ecosystems, not only like only food producers. I think then we together can really create this tipping point.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I feel like the more you are, the more you can create synergies between farmers also, because the problem with small scale agroecological farms sometimes is that they want to introduce sometimes some crops that are great ecologically, but it's really hard to find a market for. And by having more farms who are producing all of these different types of crops, and then combining them, combining the processing, the packaging, all of these different aspects of the supply chain, you could... create opportunities for these products and for these farmers easier.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, totally agree. And that's one of the reasons or one of the assignments for the Lentiland Corporation to eventually support all this processing and marketing of produce and doing it together, really creating a joint venture, beginning with Lentiland Farms, but I can imagine that other farmers in the region also can join. Yeah, absolutely. And what I see now already going on on some farms is that the region itself organizes it. So I think because of the big industrialization of the farms, the old short chain players, this whole system actually was forgotten about. And now it's building up itself again. So the farmers who have, for instance, the grain. The millers who can make, you know, wheat out of the grain and then working together with bakeries and et cetera, et cetera. And I think these are very inspiring initiatives that you now slowly see growing across the country and which are because I believe now more in the provinces, the province governments than in our national government, because they can still also financially support. support these kinds of initiatives.

• Speaker #1

  All right. Because you mentioned...

• Speaker #0

  And organize it. Yeah, help organize.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, you talked about a couple of things. One is that you hope people replicate your model and two, that the government could get more involved. What stops them from replicating that model, from securing farms and lands and using the same model to bring more young farmers to start new farms?

• Speaker #0

  Maybe that's an interesting next interview for you.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, obviously, probably not. Yeah, I couldn't ask.

• Speaker #0

  I actually have no clue and I don't understand our government anymore. So I can actually not answer this question.

• Speaker #1

  Fair enough. Fair enough. I understand.

• Speaker #0

  Well, what I understand, and I think this should get more attention too, that the lobby of the big agri firms is so big that... people are led by other yeah these financial interests and other interests um voter interests instead of really looking on what the best solution for the problem is yeah there's there's a small group of people who benefits

• Speaker #1

  greatly from the current system who has a lot of power in influencing decision making right and obviously they have a lot of motivation to make sure things don't change But yeah, that's a big other topic for it.

• Speaker #0

  It's far more about ego than about eco at the moment.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. Something else you mentioned that I find really interesting is the idea of creating teams rather than individual farmers. That's something that I've been thinking a lot about recently. I noticed that actually a lot of farms are these family farms and there's one leader of the family of the farm. And so when you were talking about... creating a much more complex system that includes some agroforestry, some alley cropping, some perennial plants, some processing, marketing. Like there's so many different roles and jobs and skills and so much knowledge. It seems impossible for one farmer to be able to cover all of that. And so I've been thinking, but on... In pretty much all other business, a type of business, you have teams of people working together. You have a CEO with a marketing expert, with a salesperson, an HR person as well. Like you have all of these different types of characters with different skills. And none of these big companies could work without being a team of different profiles of people working together. And so why don't we see farms in the same way? Or could we see farms in the same way? Building teams of individuals who each have... specific skills that could together work really well. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  I think it's a great idea. And I think this is the way we work. I think Lentiland has the team approach. And I think regenerative farming in general is all about collaboration. You know, not only collaboration within the farming team, but we also need to collaborate with the soil and with all living creatures. Everything is about not the competition from... the old economy, but the collaboration between everybody that has the same vision on future. And I think it makes your work also more pleasurable to focus on the things that you're good at and that you get energy from to focus on your own strengths. And I think also this kind of diversity in people, it makes systems more healthy. So yeah, I'm very informed of the team. approach and i think it's also um it makes it more solid because if one team member is sick or whatever then there are always other team members that can take over um and um yeah i would like to see more of uh of this so we will we will proceed in this for the lentil and farms yeah beautiful thank you so much

• Speaker #1

  It's been a great conversation and it was amazing to meet you.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, likewise. Good luck with your podcast.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you. Take care.