Transcription

• Speaker #0

  This is the time for Europe to really come together, to build from the foundations we've created, to create something which is strong in a global context, and which gives us better, more secure, more decarbonized, more affordable energy in the moment. But that's going to need a bit of change.

• Speaker #1

  The energy transition is happening, but is it fair? Is it working for people like you and me? or just for big market players. Welcome to Energetic. I am Mayim Cornelis, an expert in energy and climate policies, and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. Activists, scientists, policymakers, the real people making real change, often against the odds. Here, we do not settle for surface-level takes. We dig into the challenges, the solutions, and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. And in doing so, We rediscover something vital, our ability to trust in institutions, to believe in change, and to reclaim our power to act. Because if we want just resilience, if we want just transition, we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. And more importantly, we need to believe that we can. Let's get into it.

• Speaker #2

  I've always found energy trading mysterious. It's essential. to our energy system, yet often shrouded in jargon and kept just out of sight. Traders are the heavy lifters behind the scene, but who are they, really? And what exactly do they do? To find out, I sat down with Mark Copley, CEO of Energy Traders Europe. Mark has spent over 20 years shaping Europe's energy market from OVDEM to BIS, from the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, to the complex world of carbon, gas, and power trading. He's been everywhere, really. But more than she's cheesy, what strikes me is Mark's honesty. He doesn't shy away from hard questions. So in this episode, we explore the mysterious failure of trading and whether it is perhaps just a little bit deliberate. We talk about the extra mortgage, PPM miss, and why the sector still feels like a boys' club. But we also unpack how trading enables decarbonization, competition and system resilience when it's done right. Could energy markets work better for people and the planet? You know me, I always want to explore the big picture and I really want to understand where the silver linings are. So a big thank you to the Energy Traders Europe team for joining in and also sponsoring this series. This conversation is for anyone who wants to understand what happens behind the scenes of Europe's energy transition. and why it matters more than ever that we bring these conversations into the open. Mark, welcome to Energetic.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you so much, Varian. It's lovely to be here, although I can't pretend to not be slightly intimidated to cover those subjects in this time, but this will be fun.

• Speaker #2

  Okay, thank you so much, Mark. So let's start with your story. How did a young economist, and energy traders at the European level, what has this journey taught you?

• Speaker #0

  Oh, so I think I'll start by saying I don't think I'm particularly mysterious. I'm someone who thinks the energy markets are fundamentally a good idea. But to try and explain, when I was a kid, every holiday I went on was on the train to somewhere in Europe. So I got on the boat from Britain and I went to the Hook of Holland. And I remember standing in Hook of Holland train station. where you can see these trains going to different places in Europe. I'm very old. This was long before Eurotunnel. And I loved the idea that you could get the train to anywhere in Europe and you could meet different people and experience different stuff. Now, my mom is a French and Russian teacher. My dad is an obsessive train spotter, which is probably why we were going on the train. But basically, I traveled all around Europe and I fell in love with the idea that all of the difference you have in Europe can be harnessed to do something which is better than the sum of its parts. Now this might become a bit weird later on so but I got into energy purely by luck. An ex-girlfriend's mom moaned at me to get a proper job and I was lucky enough to get a job working for Ofgem the regulator and I absolutely loved it. Politics meets economics meets everybody's lives it's super important. We did that for a while, worked, loved electricity. When I got worried I might not be able to do electricity forever, which is ironic, went and worked in consultancy, did a bit of gas, bit of railways, so on, and then went back to what I cared about. And I wanted to work in Brussels. So I moved to Brussels, luckily enough, to work for the transmission companies of Europe. Big old beast called Ensoe, which was much less big then, and performing a really important role of writing the rules for a European market. Worked with them, absolutely adored it. Though working with people from around Europe took me back to those early days of European holidays. Thought it was absolutely brilliant. I actually thought the thing we were working for It's hugely important as well. That idea that we can make supply more secure, decarbonize more quickly and more cheaply and get better prices to customers. It's what you're taught as a regulator. So I did that for four years. And then actually speaking of regulators, Ofgem came to me and said, would you like to come back? And at that point I was like, well, actually, I think I would. So I went back to being a regulator, but kept one foot in the European game. Sitting on the board of ASA and having the pleasure and privilege of supporting the chair of that association at the time, a guy called Lord Mogg. So I was responsible for wholesale markets at Ofgem. And then Britain decided to leave the European Union, which concerned Brexit. Now, not much point sitting on the board of a European energy regulator when your country's leaving the European Union. So that rather changed my career a little bit fundamentally. So that took me into government and into the Brexit negotiation. Really, it's that geek who happens to know what the rules look like, who you need to have a conversation with the EU about post-Brexit trading arrangements.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, to limit the damage,

• Speaker #0

  right? I probably wouldn't have framed it like that at the time. But yeah, you need to try and make the best of a bad situation. Because fundamentally, the molecules and electrons still have to flow. And the better they flow, the better off customers are. So that was a slightly strange, weird, interesting, learning chapter of my career, but also an important one. But as soon as we managed to agree that agreement, I was looking for my next challenge and I was offered the role of leading energy traders Europe. So I went straight back to a role in Brussels. but actually Went back to the kind of thing I love, which is building and creating the energy market, which I hope involves the UK again. Okay. So I think I've just, I've spoken too much and demonstrated how hard I am. But there we go.

• Speaker #2

  It's no.

• Speaker #0

  It's interesting.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah. You have a wealth of experience, right? Let's say this way. So you've been part of very mysterious conversations and very complex negotiations as well. And that's probably why you bit in the energy trading discussion and organizations, right? It's very often feels like a black box. Mark, can you break it down for us? What do energy traders actually do? And why does it matter for our bills, but also for our climate goals, our system resilience?

• Speaker #0

  So just a nice small question there. But let me give it a shot. I'm going to start by saying something odd, which is, I think if you went to talk to a marketing person, they'd probably... probably tell you that using the name energy traders is a mistake. Yeah. Because really what we're talking about is risk managers. Now, when you hear the word energy trader, and just as a warning, I ask people this in interviews and it's funny, you hear the word energy trader, and I think what probably enters your head is a kind of Wolf of Wall Street vision of a kind of very high octane cutthroat kind of environment. Yeah, very much Leonardo DiCaprio on steroids, right? Which is very much what I'm not. So that's the image you originally have. But actually, what we're talking about here, I'm sorry to say, is an awful lot more boring. The trading floors are extremely calm, extremely heavily regulated, controlled places, because what you have is very large companies trying to manage their risk. Now, I could say to you, trading is about optimization of this and that and the other, but it doesn't really mean very much. And there is a kind of language that has developed, which is not necessarily the most penetrable to the outside world. I certainly agree with that. But I'm trying to explain maybe a little bit what trading is or does. Now, if you as a customer would like a fixed price contract, which is a perfectly sensible thing to do, I... Think every customer should be able to choose between a floating rate and a fixed rate in a perfect world? Well, somebody is going to have to make sure you get that fixed price energy. And obviously in Europe, the electricity price broadly changes based on the weather. on the gas price broadly changes based on whatever geopolitics is happening in global markets at the moment, sadly. So somebody is going to have to make sure that those variable prices translate into the fixed price that you want. And that's somebody.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah. And we also have to add that there is this kind of idea that the price of electricity is also determined by the marginal price of gas. So that's another layer of complexity.

• Speaker #0

  that's also why all those parties need to talk together because it's not electricity on the one hand and renewables on the one hand and gas on the other it's all mixed right no i mean it's part of why i absolutely love this market is that is both the complexity of it and the importance of it so in what i was trying to get out there is to transfer something which is inherently changeable and volatile because of the weather or the politics into something fixed you need somebody who's very good at doing that, who can take that risk and manage it. And that's partly what a trader does. If you want to build a new wind farm, well, you're going to need to go to the bank and get lent some money. Now, you can't go to the bank and say, hey, can you lend me some money? And I'm going to build this project, which is going to, and it'll make money when the wind blows, and the rest of the time it'll make no money, because the bank will laugh at you. You need somebody who can find you a way to transfer that very variable stream of revenue into something fixed. And that's a trader through a long-term contract called a PPA. And to my kind of favorite part of trading, if you like, is Europe's incredibly diverse. You live, you're from, I think, beautiful, sunny, wonderful France. And I'm from horrible, rainy, wet Britain, right?

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, but I live in currently extremely wet Italy. So yeah, that's okay.

• Speaker #0

  That's okay. But actually, it's that diversity that trading can harness, because we've got wires that go across the continent. And the job of trading is to get the energy to the where value. most. And that means you can sell that big shiny vision of Southern Europe being full of sun, who knows Morocco even providing a kind of bass street for the rest of Europe. Then you've got all of the water in the Alps and Norway. You've got the winds of the rain, the offshore wind in Britain. You can actually, through trading, strengthen the overall system. So trading... I'm talking about trading as if it's one thing, and traders come in all shapes and sizes. People who buy energy, manage risk three, five years into the future, people who trade on the day. But what they're fundamentally doing is taking positions in markets in order to minimize the risk that somebody is taking in that market, in most cases, or in some cases, to take risks themselves because they feel they're better able to manage that risk than someone else. I have a horrible feeling that explanation makes it no clearer. So let's try and do the second bit. Well, why does it matter? If you try to drive the best car in the world without any oil in the engine, the car will start performing badly. Yeah. If you would try another car in our... If you were driving along in a car that didn't have any shock absorbers, it would be a pretty bumpy ride. And actually, what traders are doing is they are the oil in that engine. They are the shock absorbers in that system. That act of constantly trying to manage risk is taking out some of the volatility in the market, not all of it, and is creating a more stable and more robust system. Now, last kind of bad analogy. I'm a little bit obsessed with bees. I like bees a lot. And I like the idea of the kind of hive mind, the idea that lots of individual people acting in their own interests creates a kind of benefit for the whole. And I think that's very much what trading is doing. You look at that energy crisis, right? We're not going to get any gas from Russia anymore. Everybody who's relying on getting gas from Russia has the strongest incentive you can imagine to go and find some more gas. They zoom out and they find whatever gas they can as quickly as possible, far before any political response. That's that hive mind at play. And what that does is creates you a much stronger overall system. So trading is... in its own difficult to penetrate way, holding the European energy system together.

• Speaker #2

  Okay, so yeah, it's really the heavy lifter that actually make ensure that we are, our system gets balanced in a way that we can still have a predict the amount of our electricity bill or gas bill and don't have so many big surprise. But you also mentioned the energy crisis of 2021 and you guys came into the spotlight. that time also because of the kind of profits of some companies and That kind of puts also a very bad image on something that was already mysterious, right?

• Speaker #0

  I think that's probably fair to say. So before I take that one, I'm going to mention your last one. I'd love to say we're the most important parts of the system. We're not. The thing about this is it's a system. And what's important is actually that everybody plays a different part. So it's the generators, the customers, the grid companies, big and small. the regulators, the governments. Sometimes in energy, we get into this habit of saying the solution is X or the key thing to do is Y. It's not. It's to get all of those people around the table to try and fix it. But anyway, to the energy crisis. It's funny how people think it started with Russia, because actually, I joined Energy Traders Europe smack bang in the middle of COVID. Wasn't allowed to meet my team for a while. And during COVID, there was no volatility in prices. And they were at the lowest level in living memory,

• Speaker #2

  as you probably expect.

• Speaker #0

  So actually, and in that world, people weren't making any profits, but they were still managing an incredibly complicated situation that people hadn't been seen before. Then there was the Russian invasion of Ukraine, somewhere I used to live, so it's pretty terrible. And that had a really fundamental effect on energy markets. And then what you have to do is... find a way to replace that energy. Now, that means finding alternative sources of gas or reducing demand. That's incredibly difficult in a global market. And I think the narrative that's developed is almost 180 degrees wrong. Oh, wow. If you have a system which can wean itself off its biggest supplier without any interruptions to supply, Bye. On the back of the lowest levels of price and volatility in living memory, I think you've just tested that system to breaking point in a way no stress test could ever have done. And I think it tells you you've got a pretty amazing system. Now, that doesn't mean the outcomes it produces are perfect for customers. But the role of a market is to make sure you're optimizing demand and supply. So those prices you saw said anyone who can reduce demand should reduce demand, and anyone who can increase supply should send it to Europe, which is exactly the signal you want people to be sending. Now, there's a job for policymakers to be saying, what are the consequences of those prices? Who do we need to help? But you can't say the price is high, therefore there's a problem, when quite clearly you are competing globally for an incredibly scarce commodity. And that's what a price signal does. So I feel like those two energy crisis, if I can call them that, really just showed how robust the market we have is. And therefore, my argument is don't look back and try and say, well, what should we have done differently? Look forward and say, given these foundations are so solid, let's build from them and actually make it even more effective so we can mitigate the effect of the next crisis. Now, did traders make a lot of money? The good ones did. Why did they make a lot of money? Because they were managing incredibly large amounts of risk. And frankly, that's sort of how most markets work. And so I don't think we should apologize for that or be worried about that. They paid fundamentally huge amounts of tax as well. So I find some of the energy discourse a bit difficult. You should, of course, learn lessons, but you should also recognize that this is the largest and best performing energy market on the planet. It's quite a statement, but I think a true one.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, that's really interesting how, let's say, the mainstream narrative pits energy markets against the public interest. But what you argue is that well-functioning markets actually enable competition and security, and in a way, also decarbonization. Could you elaborate a little bit on energy traders' role in addressing, in helping decarbonization of the energy systems?

• Speaker #0

  I can certainly try. So the best thing I'll say is I was a regulator for about nine years of my career. I argue for nothing different now than I argued for when I was an energy regulator, which is an interesting kind of comparison. Maybe my members won't like that comment, but I think it's fundamentally true. And if you look at the party I think we're most aligned with in all of Europe, which I think is the European energy regulator, larger, better functioning markets are the best way. to protect customers. Now to the Pacer and decarbonization. I don't want to overstate the case. What traders will do is optimize anything. If you produce a load of coal, they will optimize coal plant. If you produce a load of wind, you will optimize wind. But actually, in a very heavily renewable system, trading gets even more important because you have an awful lot of volatility. You have lots of periods where you don't have abundant supplies of renewable energy and you have to make sure that you are balancing out that energy. You also need to make investors want to invest in those energy sources, which is where there's long-term contracts like PPAs come into play to enable them to finance their activities. So what trading is doing is in the long run, it's helping investment. In the shorter term, it's optimizing the volatility of the wind and hopefully it's creating a system which tells you where you should be locating that wind. to minimize the cost to the overall system as well so i think it's hugely important for both decarbonization and for least cost decarbonization we can decarbonize through lots of bespoke generous national support systems but at some point we'll run out of money and that will create a backlash against the very thing we're trying to deliver which i don't think is a good thing so actually harnessing i'm gonna say the power of markets i think that's fair but Hardest thing, the power of markets to deliver decarbonization has to be a good idea. And if I can go a bit visionary for a minute, like I told you I lived in a wet and windy island. The kind of thing that fascinates me, sort of what I would like to have achieved when I grow up, is actually have made the North Sea a bit of an integrated energy hub, right? We're supposed to get 300 gigawatts of wind in the North Sea if we're going to decarbonize. So if Britain's going to hit its targets, if Europe's going to hit its targets, we're going to have to put a load of wind off shop. We can't keep driving on different sides of the road. We have to find a way of creating a system where that happens in a joined up way. And that's not happening today. And that, for me, is why the European energy market is so important, right? If we can find a single set of rules that mean people plan, operate, act together, we all benefit. And that for me, the challenge of the next one, two, three, five, ten years, because we're not going to get to net zero without doing that. So there's lots and lots of small, short-term things that help. But actually, fundamentally, Europe's not meeting its targets without finding the rules and the trading structures together.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah. So it's what you suggest is that Europe's role should be to kind of set the role of climate capitalism. Which, I mean, for certain people, certain organizations, climate and capitalism, they shouldn't even talk. It's two different things. But for other people, including you, there has to be a way to actually optimize the system so that it benefits us all. And we set the right rules that put us in the direction that is needed for the planet and for people. So I think it's really interesting because it really also... kind of sets the scene and explains why we also keep on needing this instrument. Even if we go full stream with, I don't know, energy communities or local energy production, etc., we also need those kind of big rules, big game, because that's how necessary energy is and how essential it is at all levels. It's not only for our own household consumption, but it's also for cities, for an industry, et cetera. And now that we are going into this kind of full speed industrial revival of the EU, also giving like the international geopolitical context, etc. It's more needed than ever to have a kind of very transparent and level playing field to really boost the opportunities that are there, right?

• Speaker #0

  Couldn't agree more. Let me pull three things out. So the first thing is... There's this kind of view that trading's in some way unregulated or unfettered or something, right? If I stacked up the number of EU rules, it would be taller and wider than me. This is one of the most kind of regulated markets you can dream of. Yet people seem to have that perception that isn't the case. Second thing is, I used to be a bit of a market fundamentalist. I was like, get governments out and markets will deliver. You're talking about finding the means to deliver the policy. No one's saying the market should determine what the outcome is. We've legislated in Europe to get to net zero. So the question is, how do we get there as quickly and as cheaply as possible? And I could do a big, tedious kind of historic... The Roman Empire existed because of trade. The Hanseatic League existed because of trade. Europe exists because of trade. Within carefully structured and carefully regulated environments to get to the things we want. So I don't think there's a choice or dichotomy between kind of the state and the market. The market needs to work to deliver the state goals. And then to your point about energy communities and so on, this is back to my point. I think I tried to make badly earlier, which is there is so much to do. I go to events and the nuclear lobby stands up and says, we should just do nuclear. And the energy community folks say, this has all got to be solvable by energy community. It isn't. It's everything. It's the huge stuff, massive cross-border power lines. It's the local stuff. getting communities engaged, making your distribution grids more flexible. It's policymakers, national and European, and it's bringing them all together in a, I was going to say a dialogue, but a dialogue that doesn't take too long. Because the system is fundamentally transforming. It's very easy to say, it's hard to actually conceive. But probably the reason I got into energy, stupid story, is I went on a school trip when I was eight to Didcot Power Station, which is near where I'm from. Huge coal-fired power station. And they gave me a free hard hat. But in that world, demand was flat and generation moved. And you just turned it up and down like you're having. Today, it's completely the opposite. Generation doesn't move and you move customers up and down. Or you need to be able to move customers up and down. And to get there, it's everything. It's smart metering. It's AI. It's tech. It's grids. It's all of these things. So the scale of change the energy sector needs is absolutely overwhelming. But I would argue the scale, the level of debate doesn't reflect. It's actually pretty immature. It's should we choose A or B? And it's very much driven by this, oh, there's a problem. We must be seen to be acting. You don't achieve transformational, hopefully planet-saving important stuff with a series of knee-jerk short-term measures. So I'm sounding like I'm a ranty old man now. I think if anyone tells you they know how to do this transition, they're probably lying. So what we need to do is get people from all of those things around the table, get into a mindset of and, not a mindset of or, or, or, or. And where we've got something that works pretty well, use that as the foundation rather than trying to reinvent wheels. Because that's enough stuff we do need to reinvent.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, that's also exactly the purpose of this podcast, right? To make sure that we hear about all the solutions. And what you just said about moving customers and their demand, etc. We had a very insightful conversation a few episodes ago with Olivia Sikoranyi from SimPower. That was really enlightening. And she was saying exactly the same thing. Her team was going. to talk to industrial users and they didn't even know that they could actually save money or earn money if you want by shifting their electricity usage and have this kind of spider on the web doing the work for them. So it's really a combination of everything and as I said there is the conversation about like perhaps a high transmission line and really high voltage electricity and also the low voltage and also what do you do when there is no wind, when there is no son this kind of very, there is a name for this, a German name for this kind of days.

• Speaker #0

  Dunkelflaute.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, Dunkelflaute. Yeah, my German accent is very poor. Apologies for that. Yeah, but that's very much like the combination of everything that is needed. And what's really interesting is that since you've also worked in all those different organizations of GEMS here, ACR, etc., you have been able to see all those kind of things. Let's get back to a point that really strikes me that it's super male-dominated. There seems to be quite a lot of masculine energy turning around. And we mentioned Leonardo DiCaprio on steroids with the fast-paced, money-driven, high-stakes hedge drops. Well, you said that it's untrue. It's a very boring, let's say, mom-and-dad shop, in a way, instead of, again, Leonardo DiCaprio on the trading floor. So what are the kind of excuses you have heard for being like energy trading, being such a masculine concept?

• Speaker #0

  So I hope I didn't say it was boring because that's going to get me in trouble with all of our 175 men.

• Speaker #1

  Boring can be judged. It's predictable. It's safe.

• Speaker #0

  I'm glad you used the word excuses because I think they're that. Because in many ways, energy trading is incredibly equalitarian because you are fundamentally judged on performance. And actually, it's very easy to measure performance because you can see what... You can see the results of trades. So there is no reason why biases should be creeping in, but they do. And the excuses I've heard have been shift work, lack of backgrounds in science, technology, education and maths. But when we're talking about diversity, it isn't just gender. There's also, I think, a background thing going on. I'm not sure that huge numbers of people from relatively... less well-off backgrounds get into energy trading. I'm not sure that many people, relatively speaking, from the eastern and central parts of Europe get into energy trading. So I think there's a lot of biases at play. I'm not sure I quite know the reasons. I would like to think that the companies who aren't acting on that, and I should stress quite how actively most companies are trying to tackle that, I'd like to think the companies that aren't are doing least well. or at least are having a harder time because actually I can't think of a reason that justifies it. But equally, I can't tell you your points entirely wrong because you and I did have a conversation at the eWorld conference in Essen, which, and I don't think either of us particularly enjoyed the atmosphere that was going on there.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's represented of men and yeah, I was one of the handful of women on the stages at the time, right? Yeah. Yep.

• Speaker #0

  So. I'm afraid my answer is slightly, I don't know whether I'm pleased people are tackling it, but I guess my job as CEO of an association is to make sure we're doing our part in it. So at the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses, immediately after this call, I shall be on the phone to my chair, Zepina from Shell, who is female, and we have a board which is equal. My management team in the secretariat is three and three. I run the association with Barber, I'll see you later. And we are 100% gender balanced down our secretariat. Not because we're trying to be, but because actually the best people come through all sorts of backgrounds. Backgrounds, genders, sexualities, colours, creeds and the rest of it.

• Speaker #1

  So need to market approach.

• Speaker #0

  I'd like to think we're taking a market approach, but equally, I'm not going to understate the power of biases in perpetuating some of these things. The other point I should maybe make is that trading is changing. incredibly fast. The number of people who are getting into it, the size of firm is changing. You've got huge numbers of people doing algorithmic trading now. Business models are really changing. And I think that will challenge some of the status quo, perhaps some of the embedded biases or preconceptions that perhaps have driven this. I think what you're prompting me to do is to find a better answer to this question, because I don't think I know, I don't think I quite like this response. Barine, what would you say?

• Speaker #2

  Well,

• Speaker #1

  I would say that it's complex and there are inequalities at many different levels. And it's not only when arriving on the job market, but it's also like way before in the education and the kind of opportunities that are presented. So it's also about making, let's say, Education on economics and finance, attractive sector in general is extremely gender imbalanced. Like there is like only 22% of women in the sector, even less in positions of power. And it's already quite a challenge out there. Then it's also about the working conditions. You mentioned eWorld and SN, that was really striking to see how many that there was a queue in the men's bathrooms. and not in the women's bathroom. And many women probably don't feel that comfortable being surrounded by so many men. So it's also this kind of, let's say, invisible constraints. So it's really hard to be like the first woman in the room and to bring other people on board. But it's also the role of the businesses because they need to attract the best talent, as you said, to create the conditions that everybody feels safe and can thrive whatever the conditions, right? So it comes from inherent policy. for gender equity, for health care that takes better into account female challenges or, I don't know, even gender transition needs at many different levels. So, yeah, I'm really happy that I can bring some power into this conversation.

• Speaker #0

  Which beautifully put, look, three things to mention. Number one, that conversation has actually spurred us to action there. So we're now, we're supporting the EU and energy equality platform. Probably my kind of favorite speaking engagement of the year is I go to Warsaw. I've been to Warsaw for each of the last three years to teach on a thing called the Academy of Energy Leader, which is like 30 incredibly smart Polish graduates who want to get into the energy sector. I absolutely love that. Two of them work for us. And we sponsor the EU Youth Energy Network, again, because you need to get smart people from multiple different backgrounds into the field because that's going to help, whether they end up in trading or elsewhere. And actually, they are things I'm really proud that we as an organization are doing. And we will keep doing those for the next few years. And we've got full support from our board for that. So who I'm pleased there's a bit of action happening from our side.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's not like a straightforward word for anyone. It's more like a journey and we need to be accepting of this, right? So, yeah, as you said, it's not a one-size-fits-all. It's a system. Everything is important. Nothing is important, right? It's really about the balance of the various responsibilities. But really starting by acknowledging the responsibility of each party is, I think, like a duh. Like it is the number one thing that we need to do, like in collision where we are and what we can do, what our role is. And if something doesn't work, how can we help fix it? Because maybe we can fix it alone, but as a team, as a system, we might. And I think it pretty much summarizes what energy traders do.

• Speaker #0

  Beautifully put.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, Marc, so we are reaching the end of this episode and you've already... nudged into the following episode of this series with you with the inter-traders europe so we will have one with the youth synergy network and also one on gender equity so but now i would like to really leave you with one one let's say juicy question are you ready please do you believe that policymakers understand traders i was a policymaker for nearly

• Speaker #0

  11 years and i didn't understand. things but do policy makers need to understand traders probably not in time they need to understand the role that trading is able to play and i do think there are very impressive organizations in europe on the regulatory side yes most of business as the aces of this world yes they can always be better but actually this is a well-regulated sector generally speaking and i have kind of confident And. If those people can find a way to get around the table, to focus on the longer term vision for a European energy market, then actually the challenges we face can be overcome. I was walking into work this morning. Front page of The Economist says the age of chaos. Now, you can say, oh, it's all very chaotic, or you can try and find some positives that come out of this chaos. Thank you. And I think this is the time for Europe to really come together, to build from the foundations we've created, to create something which is strong in a global context and which gives us better, more secure, more decarbonized, more affordable energy in the moment. But that's going to need a bit of change. It's going to need policymakers to understand that you have to act worldwide. You have to act with traders, with grid companies, with customers, with local representatives. environmental organizations, it needs a much more focused, less short-term dialogue to get where we need to get. Last thing I want to say, I love it and hate it in almost equal measures because there's so much opportunity we could be seizing and so much detail and excessive complexity that we insist on creating. I can't guarantee I'm going to do it for 25 more years, but I'm going to keep doing it. Because actually, it's never been more important that we create these systems. Because frankly, customers in Europe need them. You don't stop being a regulator. And that's still fundamentally what kind of motivates me. So I hope we can have another chat in a few years' time. And we can say, hey, look at the progress we made. Look at how all of that global chaos led Europe to really step up, double down on what it does well, and create something which is akin to a... an energy handiatically or something who knows so you're a full vegeter we have to fix them and if there's anything that traders are good at it's in a innovation, right? What's the problem? Find a way of managing problem. And the single biggest thing that keeps me enjoying my job, whether that's working with kids in Poland or having extremely boring conversations with TSOs in Britain or elsewhere, the people are smart. There is no shortage of ideas and there is no shortage of kind of desire to try and make things better. Lots of disagreement about what better looks like, but if we can harness that talent, we can step away from 27 national approaches and actually realize that doing this together is really the only option, then you have to be optimistic,

• Speaker #1

  right? Thank you so much, Mark. It's been such an insightful conversation. We've touched upon so many topics and really, yeah, there's a lot of food for thought. So thank you so much for tuning in. And yeah, let's meet up again in a couple of years and see how... much progress we've made on those various fronts. Thank you for watching.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you, Marina. And thank you to everyone who got to the end of that. Feel free to get in touch if you fundamentally disagree.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, of course. It's about creating a dialogue, right? Because it's only by confronting two people who think differently that we actually grow. So yeah, that's it. Thank you for watching.

• Speaker #2

  Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. Amber and Cornelis, your hosts from Policy Consultancy, Next Energy Consumer, and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights, and ideas over more than 14 episodes. And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you're enjoying our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.

• Speaker #3

  I'm gonna be a musical, I'm gonna be a musical