Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Brussels energy bubble is like the Eagles song Hotel California, you know, you always check in, but you can never check out.

• Speaker #1

  20 years is a long time to believe something. The European Sustainable Energy Week started in 2006, the year the EU published its first action plan for... energy efficiency. Back then, the language was about security of supply, diversification, and the early architecture of what would become the energy union. Since then, there have been three energy legislative packages, a Green Deal, Repower EU, a citizens energy package still being negotiated and an affordability crisis that put energy back on kitchen tables in ways the Brussels policy conversation had not fully anticipated. So as you can see, I am at the European Sustainable Energy Week 2026 with three people who have been present for most of that arc, not as officials, but as advocates, communicators and practitioners, people who choose to stay in this conversation across 20 years. Thomas Nowak from Heat Pumps and Buildings, Dusan Jakovjevic, after 20 years, yeah. So from the Industrial Efficiency and Heike Winkler from Offshore Wind and the North Sea. So I want to know what it looks like from where they have been, where they have been standing, and what actually changed and what was harder than it should have been. And what 20 years of sustained presence in EU energy policy does to your sense of what is still possible. So, where were you when you came into EU energy policy? What were your thoughts? Did you know what you were entering into? What kind of?

• Speaker #2

  I had just started with the European Heat Pump Association. Literally, I think I was here the first time in 2007. And it was a very loud event. That's what I remember because some people were playing music continuously. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  wow.

• Speaker #2

  But after that, I think Yousef has always been a stock taking. I have just in preparation to this talk, checked a little bit the old programs and the titles. And it has shifted not so much. It has always reflected what was en vogue in that time. So it is guided by renewables, energy efficiency. Eco-design in the context, some buildings, and then, of course, the big framework concepts that you mentioned. But overall, it has not changed a lot, I think. And you can see that also the people have not changed a lot for a long time. I do think, however, that this time is the first time that I see a lot of new faces. So it seems to me that there is now a change ongoing in the people that are active. So for many people... This, Yousef, is very new and for others it's a little bit repetitive of what has been discussed in the past. But it shows quite clearly that it will take a long time to change energy policy and to create a resilient and renewable and efficient and clean Europe.

• Speaker #1

  Eiku, where were you 20 years ago?

• Speaker #3

  20 years ago was really long ago. It was yesterday. Okay, yesterday. I started with renewable energies and with the European perspective on it in 2008, when we started building the first German offshore wind farm. And that was the time where it was also very obvious that it's a European business. Offshore wind industry is not a national solution. As we can see also from your question or going back to your question, it's a development. Europe was very far and European legislation was very far, but now it's very close. After all that time, after all that discussion, and maybe this is also something that where we can say it's also a use-have result, it. The countries, the different national legislations are coming together and it's not longer a topic on your own, as a German, as a French, as a Spain. It's a topic together because in my eyes the development was going in the direction of creating one Europe. European electricity market and I think the renewables helped a lot on that side. So I'm really happy to see here today again so many people and so many people who reflect on that topic and make sure that all of us gather to find good and fast solutions for planet protection.

• Speaker #1

  Dusan, where were you 20 years ago?

• Speaker #0

  20 years ago I was working in the UK in politics. And I was kind of halfway through my burnout, being disappointed with the second term of Labour government, with Tony Blair, because we were working pro-European and there was not sufficient support for the European issues in the UK. So I thought, what should I do? You know, something which is more kind of concrete, not to promote like democracy, governance and all the nice words. So I thought energy might be interesting. I mean, I never really worked in energy. I had no background in energy. I studied history and politics and so basically kind of the only place I could work was Brussels with English. So, you know, I basically kind of like, you know, got my job and I started within a month, you know, I started working in energy sector, working in communications. And this was really, really, I mean, I haven't regretted it. It's quite amazing. It's really like very vibrant and should I say energetic. A sector and great people and really, really kind of positive ideas and lots of developments and lots of transgression and things are changing always. As Thomas was saying, I mean, we have been seeing lots of old faces, you know, for quite some time. But I can really second to what you said about like, you know, that we have some generational change. That I think already last year, I saw quite a lot of. new faces, young faces, and this year it's even more so. And I think this is kind of quite telling, and it's quite important, really, for us, you know, to kind of position the whole energy policy discussions, because obviously, you know, I work in industrial energy efficiency and started, you know, working in association, and we were, basically, we were launched at Sustainable Energy Week. Oh, wow. Because working in energy policy at the... Euroheat and Power, I mean, I can mention. I realized that Sustainable Energy Week, which I think we first time did it like 16, basically for the first one or second one, because there was this issue about this like sustainable management in some cities. There was an organization that was organizing Sustainable Energy Week. And basically, you know, from the very start. So, you know, when I started, I had an idea about a new association. I thought, where is the best place to launch it in Brussels, but Sustainable Energy Week?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So, you know, we have applied with the idea and everything. And we basically, we got a room and we were launched here at the Shell Mine Building. So in a way, you know, EIP, Energy Efficiency Industrial Project, is like a child of Sustainable Energy Week. But yeah, I mean, I'm sorry to say that. But, you know, it's the fact. But it's kind of quite exciting and all these changes. And today, you know, going for the sessions on energy efficiency. and three or five years ago, you see like a... The different rooms are changing, different people are in different topics and things are developing. And it's super exciting.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it is. There's a lot of conversations that you can really see. As Thomas said, it's a way to, Youssef is a way to take stock of what's happening at the European level and the priorities that are shifting from one another. And I must say. I was extremely involved in Youssef in the previous years because there was a really strong focus on energy consumers, energy poverty, on energy communities as well. There is less of this focus this year, but it's also kind of normal that we need to circle, to get back to some other topics as well. Also, because in the previous conversation in this podcast, it was with Evelina Herstein. She... Clearly said now in the EU, we consider energy as a right and not a commodity. So now you kind of see it also in the way the conversations are framed, like you don't need to argue for energy to be considered a right or for consumers to be at the center as much as a few years ago. So, I mean, I would say that I would keep on insisting because we... Energy has to serve the people and not the other way around. But this way is also showing a different kind of concern of how to best serve the people, because there's a strong focus on the security of supply. really this kind of angles. So let's, that's quite something. Let's use it as a moment to take stock of what's coming in the next year. Is there like, is there any kind of policy moment in the past 20 years? So we saw that it has changed a lot from really the very first architecture, the first energy packages and so on, to the energy union, the Green Deal, Repower EU, etc. We Has there been some moments in the past 20 years that you kind of expected to be a little bit more exciting and weren't? Perhaps. Or maybe something that surprised you the other way around.

• Speaker #2

  On the exciting part, we have, of course, discussed many. Many different details on energy efficiency. And that is by definition, in my view at least, not a very exciting topic. It's very important, but it's not very exciting. Because most people don't want an energy efficient product. They want a functioning product. They want their warm shower. They want music to be played. They want their car to drive. So I do think that I would have expected energy efficiency on the ground to have a bigger impact. And I think it did not. And maybe it did not. because we allowed all the time to run fossil fuels on the site. So this lack of dedication on taking a stance in favor of the most efficient solution, which is electrification, that was, in my view, disappointing in the, let's say, 2010s, 12s, when the building efficiency directives came and eco-design. and at the same time maybe the upside is now that as soon as we have taken a stance and a decision in favor of electrification and we say let's let's set an electrification target and we get that now and we we start also to document a bit better how little we still have electrified and how much more work we have to do and i must mention the primary energy fallacy because it's used so much against the electrification agenda that people say but we compare primary energy with final energy and then it looks as an insurmountable challenge, but it is not. And then on the other side, what I think was most impactful, and I hoped it to be, so I'm quite happy that it happened, that was the extension of the whole renewables discussion into heat.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #2

  And especially there the recognition that outside air, ambient air, can actually be a very powerful energy carrier that we should use much more. And because we also have a lot of waste heat from cooling that we expel to the outside. If we would now translate that to the 2020s and say, let's reuse the waste heat from cooling, you know, then we could even put an additional block on the foundation of ambient energy as energy source.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's interesting what you say, because I have the tendency to see tech as some kind of a vector. I'm always, whenever I see this, I'm attending this kind of conference that is very tech oriented, etc. always like raising my hand and say, okay, but what about the people? What about the people? What you're kind of showing is that there are a lot of the conversations that can, that needs to still happen. And, and this kind of

• Speaker #2

  of of of sin is also a place to have this kind of conversation or how to best make it make it simple why was that so difficult yeah yeah exactly people say you're sitting in the austrian alps and it's minus 10 degrees and you say how can you make heat from minus 10 yeah that is a very human observation because you feel cold but humans are not the masters of thermostats in physics because absolute zero is at minus 273 So every temperature level above that has some amount of energy. And if it's minus 10, you have 260 Kelvin of energy that you can use. And so then if you have the proper technology, and I would say heat pump once, then you can provide heating and hot water from it. And if you turn it around and you say you're sitting with 36 degrees in southern Spain and you find it far too warm, then the same technology can give you the cooling that you need. And if we then use the waste heat from that cooling for hot water, you also have a warm shower when you want to get rid of your sweat.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, so it's really like putting the church at the center of the village. So it's really what this kind of conversation, including at YouSafe, where you have both the tech-centric... the regulation centric and let's say the the people centric conversation and you have to merge these you have to translate the tech into a function that the humans want yeah for you heike it's a bit uh or let's put it that way it's a

• Speaker #3

  Completely different direction. I'm interested in Youssef and the development in Europe that's more about re-industrialization. And it's about the green industrial deal that really drives me and it's about creating jobs in Europe. And I think that's also a very important aspect for human beings. I mean, as you mentioned, it's not only about tech. It's also about what is the... surplus in electrification and also in the development of green hydrogen. When you see, for example, RAD2 or RAD3, that was, from my perspective, one of the biggest disadvantages, not to be capable to do both electrification and delivering the green hydrogen that the industry needs to grow. and to create more jobs. That's one thing. And when I remember right, there was another topic, like when the European Union was going for driving the Clean Industrial Deal forward, it was a bit like, all you different European countries, you have a choice. You can decide on your own what are the right criteria to be used and so on. And that disappointed me a lot. I thought in this moment a top-down approach would have been very much easier. And it might have also lead to a faster electrification in your direction, but also on green hydrogen topics like what we have. Steel, for example, it's very, very important for the European Union. It's very, very important for the people who are living here. And this is something that has requirements. And I think Europe is, from my perspective, there to fulfill it. And it's not only about different aspects like energy efficiency or electrification. It's to see the whole system. And to understand human beings are living in this system. They need jobs. They need heating, they need electricity. All of these aspects need to be somehow transported and need the right regulation. And there, I still see there is a lot to do. And I believe there are some USEFs to come to clarify step by step each topic, at least from my perspective right now. But correct me.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, from my perspective, what I struggled a bit with Yusuf through the years and the work at the European Commission and institutions was that basically some kind of confusion in priorities. I mean, Marina, as you said, I mean, there's been kind of changes of focus, you know, really. But in a way, this felt not done in sort of good faith. Because, you know, we work on industrial energy efficiency and obviously for kind of lots of our members and the direct users of energy, I mean, electrification, direct electrification sounds always like the best solution and then inclusion. And then basically, you know, you can see the potential of direct electrification or utilization of waste heat or something. But suddenly, you know, we found it ourselves, you know, for a few years when there was like conversations were dominated, I don't know, but for example, carbon capture and storage. It was like full. decade. I mean, there's still some lingering of it. I mean, basically lots of focus on it. Because Yusuf and the policy in a way is a zero-sum game. Because if you talk about something, you cannot talk about something else. If you talk about CCS, you can't talk about like, you know, energy communities or people. Because the time is limited, the slots are limited, we all apply, you know, some we get, some don't. So we ended up at certain years at the focus was basically on something which is relatively small, minor as a potential, but it overtook, you know, overshadowed, you know, a lot of the conversations. Or like, I mean, you know, Thomas knows well, you know, I mean, if you look at, you know, kind of things like hydrogen, for example. I mean, hydrogen, you know, really, I mean, what, three, four years ago, almost every single session, you know, had some element of hydrogen. And this sort of sidelined, you know, lots of other issues. Of course, you know, hydrogen is good, the potentials with hydrogen, but this was totally out of proportion. So basically they put like, you know, perspectives and priorities, you know, on the things, you know, which I mean, I totally agree, you know, the priorities, you know, because it is social Europe. So people should be on top, you know, not like, you know, technology is always there. But, you know, the things need to be put in the right priority list and not to have something which sort of overshadows. everything else but uh are you really surprised no i'm not you know really i mean i i'm trying to kind of keep positive spin on this i mean there is this I don't know, it's sort of dark side of the European work, that sometimes, you know, things get kind of like sidelined into some boxes, you know, which are, you know, good, maybe sometimes less good, sometimes transparent, sometimes less transparent. And then basically, you know, we sort of like, you know, it's quite problematic, you know, for people working like wind power or like industrial energy efficiency, which is super boring. But, but it's, it's, it's,

• Speaker #1

  you're not boring.

• Speaker #0

  Maybe I'm not. But, you know, the topic, I mean, this has been basically our goal for last 15 years, trying to kind of sex up, you know, the, the, the energy efficiency, industrial energy efficiency, because, I mean, there is understanding. I mean, this is always run by some communication agency, of course, that, that the commission of SINEEA now, they basically give kind of priorities to the subjects. But like, you know, some things are... better and they attract more attention and some attract less.

• Speaker #2

  But it reflects what I thought before and what I said before. It reflects that Youssef is a mirror image of what is currently on vogue with the commission. And not to forget, because many projects present their results here, also what was three years ago in the projects. Because then they deliver on their communication. efforts and maybe that's the mix that makes it sometimes interesting and maybe also the project influence makes it balances it a little bit so that you're not the the pendulum cannot swing too far to one level because there is always a bit of a dampening factor from two years or three years ago when these projects were granted so you have always a feed forward and a feedback from the projects that feed also the the content of the different sessions i would agree however that this... or I don't know if you agree to that, but this change of communication agency, that is, if I could criticize one thing, that is the biggest, because every agency has had to learn again. And over the time, one thing that you could be certain of when there was a new communication agency is there were some good new things, but also some quite a few bad things. So the learning on the positive side, that was not executed well enough.

• Speaker #0

  I think now for the last three years, it's pretty much the same people and they're doing a really good job.

• Speaker #2

  Thank you, Luca.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you, Luca. And this is, you know, but at one point, totally, as Thomas says, you know, we have like, you know, nearly annual change of it. And this was really like, and plus also they had limited understanding of the topics. So this kind of amplified, you know, this misrepresentation of priorities.

• Speaker #1

  And it was, yeah. I mean, I think it's also, I'm not sure they get honest feedback from veterans like us so often, right? So it's also important to give them some tough love. And even DJ communication of the DJ energy knows, and that was particularly from the conversation with Evelina, that. The EU-Safe brings together a community of people who are already convinced. So that's, I think it's the biggest challenge and perhaps also the biggest mistake. You know, this kind of opportunistic agenda. Sometimes, you know, you are surfing on the current trends of the EU, etc. So you aim to bring people who will be convinced. But the biggest challenge for me would be... to have people who are interested only in, I don't know, nuclear or hydrogen or tech or whatever, to join the same conversation, but really the same conversation, as someone who has spent his life or her life working on energy poverty. That would be like the marvelous thing. Because we can have a very, very different experience of use of, because we don't attend the same sessions.

• Speaker #0

  There is this exactly, you know, there's not enough mixing.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  of these people. So a lot of times people end up talking to themselves or their members.

• Speaker #2

  But on the other hand, how would you do it? I mean, why would you, did you ever go to a full nuclear conference? I have nothing to say there. So I didn't, I never did. Maybe it's an interesting experience. But I would, I would give it a different angle. I would say the people that come here is, is the engaged people that work on the European level in the topic. So you create the nucleus for people that come from as far as, I don't know, Klagenfurt or... Or Poznan to come here and to say, OK, let me exchange with other people that have the same drive that I have. And for once, I think when you come home after Yusuf, you have a good feeling that there is momentum and people. are taking action yeah and in in there have been quite dire times in in the meantime right when when renewals didn't they were not on vogue energy efficiency didn't play and maybe that was the days when when everybody could just get away by saying we could just do everything with clean hydrogen and then that was okay and we all know that it was also quite an agenda industry yeah but yeah so so what what i in that case at least you would meet the people that were active yeah and that could bring you home re-energized. and say, okay, it makes sense, I continue to work, and then next time I have another exchange, and so it keeps you running.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I can confirm.

• Speaker #3

  I mean, I really, that time, this year, I traveled here and I was looking for hope.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #3

  Because what we see in Germany right now is completely, I'm open, miserable, when it comes to regulatory solutions for renewable energy. And it doesn't matter if energy efficiency or if green hydrogen or if electrification, everything is really not going forward. So to see here that we are on the European level working together on the same subject really creates hope and strength and empowerment. And therefore, I'm really grateful for you, Seth. And you criticize because you might be longer time already. In the loop, and for me it's still something new, and I see it's a really great experience. I just learned, for example, today at a fair stand, who is responsible for maritime special planning in the EU. For me, it was a very important knowledge, because in Germany it's not really solved in a good way. So to connect this and to have that knowledge and to gain that knowledge. It's a really huge benefit of Yusuf here.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's true that EU officials, they tend to be quite relaxed and open. You can kind of talk to them at this moment, but they also come to learn, right? So it's... On eye level. Yeah. And this is positive.

• Speaker #0

  Just like two more things, you know, on basically on Yusuf itself. I think what was very noticeable as a difference was that Sinead took a stronger role from DGNR. Because they are more market-orientated and they were like, you know, really, I mean, like a live program, you know, which basically fits between Horizon and, I don't know, Innovation Fund. So there is like a little kind of activity which was slightly differently focused. And secondly, the fact that Yousef, you know, really like was running and sustained itself. through all of these changes, and both when it comes, you know, to priorities, but all agencies, operations, and everything, shows that actually Yusuf is kind of like a living thing. Yeah, it's listening. It can actually, it went through all of that, you know, in a way, kind of growing up, and so there is almost, you know, sort of the story of growing as a person. It's kind of quite interesting to think, you know, because, you know, you can do, I mean, we're all parents. So you can do as a parent, you know, you can do lots of kind of wrong things at certain points in the life. But, you know, there's still the person that kind of comes out of it and it's stand on its own feet. And this is what we have Yusuf and it's kind of survived in all of these sort of, all the hydrogens and all the other things.

• Speaker #1

  You're going to get us emotional. You didn't ask me where I was 20 years ago, so.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, sorry. Marine, where were you 20 years ago?

• Speaker #1

  I was 20. 20 years ago.

• Speaker #0

  I thought you were like 12.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. No, no, no. It was 20, 20 years ago. And I didn't think about energy at all. But what I remember from 20 years ago is that Bulgaria and Romania were about to enter the European Union. They did that on the 1st of January 2007. And just a year and a half before, 10 Eastern European and Central European countries had just joined the EU. So, Eiko, you said something that I found quite interesting around the fact that when you started like 20 years ago, you also realized that the EU dimension was necessary to make offshore wind happen. But by definition, the seas are international, the winds are international. So you really need this cooperation across borders to deliver.

• Speaker #3

  Yes, it's absolutely necessary. And it's with many topics like that. European countries can really fulfill the different gaps and help each other to solve things which they might not solve as one nation. And it's not all about deep tech. Sometimes it's about getting things together. And therefore, yeah, such conferences are quite helpful in my eyes. Also to make the people understand things are moving. Yeah. Because sometimes it looks like, okay, we will go back to fossil fuels. We will go back to, you know, and then to really have a look. Upfront in the future, it creates a strength which we won't have on our own. And then we will always shake with the politicians we just have during that time. And next four years, we will have different ones. So this is really important to have a guideline, to have a European perspective. And I think since the Draghi report, lots of things changed. And it was really late already. But still, we have the chance to manage, and that creates hope. We have both daughters, and we want them to be happy and live in a climate that is at least something we can manage with. And therefore, I think it's very important to get all these people here in motion, to get them doing their job. to have next to electricity also green hydrogen because if not we have a problem with cement and things like that but never mind in proportion to its protection it's it might be small but it's necessary um and i think that's with many topics like this they might be small but still necessary and therefore maybe the picture looks sometimes here like it is with so many different aspects but we all need them.

• Speaker #0

  But this collaboration basically... You know, when I look at our association, EIP, Energy Efficiency in Industry, we started looking at energy management systems and these things at the level of a company, individual company. But these days, we're mainly talking about industrial symbiosis, industrial global symbiosis, circular economy, because we figured out actually it's never about the one user or one person or one company or one sector or one something. It's always about connecting.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So you have two synergies. You have to sort of like see. to work on systemic level. And this sort of connectivity works on local level, national level, but like maybe most importantly on European level, because that can provide, you know, this sort of binding tissue between all of these different policies and kind of elements, you know, that can drive this world to be a bit better.

• Speaker #2

  Shouldn't we then have a use of... that is on implementation and that talks about how to learn from each other because that is then the missing link yeah we are discussing a lot on the high level airplane mode yeah now we have an electrification target but how do we get to the electrification target and now i'm from germany with our more than 800 dso's and all of them have their own technical connection requirements and they can decide that yeah you Where's the learning to say, I learned this morning, personally me, that in Belgium and Flanders, the DSOs are owned by the cities. They have one technical operational level, the layer that is executing, but the ownership is with the municipalities. Could be a great idea for Germany. I don't know who to suggest that to, because I've also learned that in the ministry in Germany, exactly these, the department heads for the electrification area are missing at the moment. I don't think we have. There's not even personnel on the administration side. But nonetheless, this idea of saying, okay, so we learn this. We learn about system integration. We learn how to create not only circular economy, but circular energy economy. I make use of waste heat, and then I use it in energy networks, and I bring it to industry, or I take it from industry. And we can significantly reduce the whole energy demand. And then we also need less green hydrogen. Now you've left the cat out of the house.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, but I mean, you're completely right. I mean, it's a very important aspect. And I think not everybody who is joining is aware of things they can learn here. So this learning effect is valuable, at least full stop. That point is clear. And regarding how to change or to set up the program, Last year, for example, the Critical Raw Material Act. This is the basis for everything. I mean, if we don't have a solution how to get the critical raw materials, you won't see onshore, you won't see PV, you don't see offshore batteries. I mean, there are so many things which are relying on this kind of development. And it was a huge topic last year. I think things really moved on that side. Even in Germany, they discussed where to get the permanent magnets, for example. This kind of developments are driven by the European Union. And they are driven by such exchanges, at least from Europe.

• Speaker #2

  Should we then not have a best practice session from abroad?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, absolutely.

• Speaker #2

  So, you know, get half a day with case studies or examples for policy from...

• Speaker #1

  the americas from asia yeah yeah there could be something that's more workshop like and uh for instance today uh we are recording on the 10th of june there is a session about a message it seems to be a very high level event and not something practical a toolkit that people can bring home so maybe that's exactly what's what's kind of one of the aspects that's missing. And it's funny that you're mentioning implementation, because exactly two years ago, I recorded another podcast that you said during yourself, it was more like a Vox Pop, I interviewed a few people around, probably you, you said, I don't know if you remember it. But anyway, and the dog who caught the bus, because it was just after the adoption of all the new packages, and one week, or not even a week after the open elections, with a Quite a flip in the political majority. So people were, everyone said it's all about implementation. Except that did we get the opportunity to take our time and learn from one another? I'm not sure because then all the omnibuses packages have been reopened. And I totally get that civil servants and the SOs, etc. are lost. Given that the winds are changing all the time, I mean, if we go back to winds, if we go back to winds, do you decide to install winds in certain, like wind turbines in a certain way? Because you know the main trends, right? And that policy is exactly the same.

• Speaker #3

  Yes, I see it also that there are several changes on the European level, and sometimes, as I mentioned, the one, red two, red three, this is... In details, very confusing. And I think also for many company representatives, very confusing to understand. So you are right, the discussion is very important on how to message, how to communicate these things. And there, I personally believe that we need all. Training in different aspects and different fields. I will not talk about energy efficiency because I just don't know enough about it. And I think there it could be also an idea to have a platform to really create within you platforms on certain exchanges that one can really, as you mentioned, learn, take this knowledge back home. That could be really something to be added on top. But from a content perspective, it's already done. And it's something really impressive for me because I learned you have only subject by subject and never really match it and never really combine it. And for me, Youself is really a place where all these things are combined. One last word on that. Industrialization. I mean, remember, this old industrialization age we had, we are again at the same stage. It's only a different kind of industrialization process we are all going through. So this makes the topic so wide and so confusing. And I think it's always helpful to explain. on the different paths which which needs to be taken to really reach that kind of development and when you talk about us we will not learn so much from them for example because on that side at least when it comes to energy transition there is not so much open public discussion as we have here in Europe, for example.

• Speaker #2

  But I didn't say U.S., I said the Americas. Okay, okay. If you think that, for example, California is far advanced, and California has, in my view at least, set standards by setting requirements on cars notably, but also on other technology that then have an influence on the rest of the whole continent. So that is a radiation effect that we have. I want to say one thing when you say industrialization and we are looking at the same... picture than maybe at the beginning of the industrial age i i strongly disagree because the big difference today is that we have a world market that we have to work in and that has completely different opportunities and challenges compared to the industrial age that was mainly discussed defined by germany uh the uk uh france and and maybe a little bit of italy right they they had an easy situation they had you Most of the scientists, they were just buying the resources from whoever, and then they would do the value-added. But today, maybe we don't even have all the scientists anymore, and the resources for sure are spread across the globe.

• Speaker #3

  Why do you think we talk about a European single market approach?

• Speaker #2

  Oh, I wish we would talk much more about that. The single European market, with the deviations that Europe allows the member states, and now we can have a long discussion why the member states claim that right. But that's probably Europe's biggest weakness. And I'm not the first one to say that. We have more than 400 million people and we are still not on the same power level as, for example, the United States.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, but this is exactly where Europe wants to go. And this is exactly where we will reach this point, what you say. Now you are not aligned with me on that topic. Because then we can really solve things and we can find solutions. which are made for Europeans, which are valuable. As I said in the beginning, it's not only about having a warm house. It's very important. Or having a cold house. It's also important to pay your rent, and therefore you need a job. So there is so much more attached to the topic itself than we can talk in three days' conference. But at least we can highlight this point and this point. Because of that, the discussion will start. And if it could be a starting point for important topics here, then it's already a lot that the conference reached.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. What I think, I mean, we might be losing, you know, one element, which I think it's quite important for both for Youssef, you know, but in general for kind of like a policy work, it's perspectives of member states. And we might not have enough representation of them. I mean, I'm based in Brussels, our association is based in Brussels, but for you, Sevino, there is over-representation of the Brussels bubble, energy bubble people, basically. Well, I was really, really fascinated in November. I was at, I think there was a launch of some strategic raw materials event, commission event here in Brussels. What they did, they brought the... the raw material person from the commission office from each of the member states or like, you know, is it from the government there? The one who is like a central point, you know, for that topic in a member state and to see 27 people standing on the podium introduced one by one, I really thought, I mean, this is amazing. This just added a different dynamic to the whole discussion. So I think, you know, for us, you know, to focus lots on that. on the topics or technologies. I mean, we miss definitely people. And we miss, you know, this kind of representation of all of these things where they really matter. And this is definitely member states. So I think if there's any single point that I think the USA might be in a position to improve is I think at some point we have these energy efficiency days where they can organize, I mean, maybe still, the events, you know, in Croatia or... Poland or elsewhere, but to have people from the member states here and if there's a dominant policy now on affordability or the buildings, to have actually the central, the contact points and the member states here on the stage and talking.

• Speaker #2

  We are awaiting the electrification action. Electrification, exactly. That would be the best. That would be the best.

• Speaker #0

  electrification action plan because then actually when you have all of the member states are talking i mean then you see the the kind of this challenges of transposition of the policy yeah so i i really think i mean apart from all of us you know having a nice time here we i really want to and i think in the past i might have been meeting more people from

• Speaker #1

  from the from abroad yeah i think so i remember this kind of uh of trends as well a little more Well, again, more on the consumer side, citizen side, energy poverty side. But I remember that there were representatives of country way more. But it's true that there are also parallel initiatives that stem from Youssef, such as the Energy Citizen Advisory Hub, the Energy Poverty Advisory Hub. So they are kind of new and competing in a way, competing agendas. right so but yeah it's now the the next challenge will be to bring this kind of the, the richness of the knowledge that is produced in this kind of parallel or child events back into the. Back home?

• Speaker #2

  Back home for Christmas Then you need two weeks of policy conference. It's already now a pity that the new European Bauhaus is in parallel.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Exactly. And even last week,

• Speaker #0

  the Green Week was last week. Yes. So it's all kind of combined.

• Speaker #1

  So this week I'm spending my time between here and the new European Bauhaus because it's so interesting. And, you know, for instance, the housing agenda has moved a lot into the Bauhaus, right? I have this mandate with the Commission on the NEB Facility Expert Group, so now I'm quite an insider. And I can see that there are many things that we discussed the previous years here at USEF on housing and energy efficiency in the housing, etc. have moved to the NEB New Europe and Bauhaus Festival. So it would be good to have a direction. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  it's kind of suboptimal.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  The way that's all aligned at the moment. I mean, exactly. I mean, to have it in parallel, and you said, you know, you're right. I mean, the energy efficiency topics are discussed elsewhere.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So it's most likely heat pumps as well.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. So let's conclude with your two cents on where we should be in 20 years.

• Speaker #2

  If we manage. If we manage.

• Speaker #1

  So up and dancing.

• Speaker #2

  That certainly is. Do you want to say something, Dushan, 40 years ago? No, probably not. Let's not aim for that. I don't think I would want to do that. No, I love that. Unless I can wear your shoes and the dress or something. But to the question then, 20 years is exactly the time horizon that we need to get to 100% renewables. So for heat pumps, it means... A tremendous effort to move away from fossil fuels. It means that we significantly increase the efficiency of replacement because otherwise we don't have enough people and that we engage enough people to say that it's good fun to work in this field. And it's a career decision. So we would have to advertise for that today so that we can execute over the next 20 years. and in the context of electrification all this is going to happen because then we have the most efficient system to provide electricity heating cooling and indoor comfort yeah

• Speaker #0

  It's my turn. Yes, you're correct. 20 years. I really hope that the topic, if member states will join or not, will be solved.

• Speaker #1

  It will be just one member state.

• Speaker #0

  I'm now bored and I say I would love to see that the European Union has taken the decision. And that the member countries adapt accordingly. It sounds maybe weird, but I believe this is the only way how we can really make it in time. And this is for climate protection. And I think they aligned already. So they could just go now and take the regulation approaches we have on a European level. and use it in the different member states, then I think things will really, you will see we might only need 15 years. I mean, there are really opportunities now when the member states are cooperating and when they take the guidelines of the European Union series.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah. Dusan.

• Speaker #1

  Just to kind of reaffirm what Thomas says, I mean, personally, it reminded me of, One very senior person at the commission, you probably all know, but he's not retired. And he says, oh, you know, this kind of like a Brussels energy bubble is like the Eagles song Hotel California. You know, you always check in, but you can never check out. So it's basically kind of like hanging around, you know, and, you know, it was like a little cynical guy. And I'm also a cynical guy. So, you know, standing around, you know, so it's if we are still here. Talking about these things in 20 years, I think that might be perceived very strongly. That is really my whole song. Yeah, But on the more positive note, I think, you know, in 20 years, you know, hopefully, you know, Europe, you know, is going to be fully electric. We're going to have like, you know, full electrification. That hopefully we're still going to have some industries. There's going to be industrialization, reindustrialization, deindustrialization. And I hope that like four of us are not going to be replaced by AI.

• Speaker #2

  our online versions like an online version so like a truce of ourselves exactly our yeah the alternative or something kind of yeah okay well Marie and you what way do you see it? in 20 years time well I hope that we can still have this kind of open conversations and bring tough love to the European Commission Because that's also what it needs and what democracy needs. Something that I think we don't realize enough is how important it is to kind of disagree on certain topics, whether it is green hydrogen or anything else. And make sure that all the big, let's say, big intentions and the big seeds that we have been planting these years At USEF and in energy policy have their nice fruit, right? So that's trees and then fruit. So we have indeed electrification that is also just, fair, resilient, socially acceptable, socially accepted. And that we don't have 50,000 people who die every summer because of the heat. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Great, thank you.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you. We are really, I mean, I'm really happy to join you here and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we are going in all of the proposed directions. So let's see where we end up in 20 years. But I think if all of us work together and the people outside too, we have at least a good chance.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, exactly. Preparation always above competition. Okay, cheers to that. Cheers. Energetic explores the people, policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. I am Malin Cornelis. If you found this conversation valuable, you can share it with colleagues working on housing, governance and consumer protection. You will find references and further reading in the show notes. Until next time.