She's Already Leading the Project. Why Isn't the System Designed Around Her? | Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Description

Women are already the primary decision-makers in household renovation and low-carbon upgrades. They manage timelines, handle budgets, research materials, anticipate health impacts, and carry the cognitive load of the entire process. The retrofit system, however, is not designed around them.

In this episode, Marine Cornelis speaks with Ellora Coupe, founder of Her Own Space, about the structural gap between where retrofit happens and how it is designed. The conversation examines why trust, not technology, is the real barrier to household action, why peer-based learning models fill a gap that institutional tools cannot, and what it would take for funding and policy frameworks to account for the full complexity of human-centred change.

This is a conversation about why retrofit moves slowly when it ignores who is already leading the work.

1. Trust as missing infrastructure. Retrofit faces a systemic trust deficit — not a communications problem, but a structural one. Households distrust contractors, product recommendations, and institutional schemes. Ellora argues that this trust erosion is the most underestimated obstacle to transition at scale.

2. The patronising design gap Women approaching retrofit are routinely not taken seriously as technical interlocutors. This is not incidental. It generates an invisible friction cost — eroded confidence, delayed decisions, abandoned projects — that no current scheme measures.

3. Community as a governance model Her Own Space is not a peer support forum, but a response to a specific governance failure: the loss of learning between individual retrofit journeys, and the incapacity of one-size-fits-all programmes to accommodate property diversity, budget variation, and different life stages. The community model absorbs complexity that institutional tools can't hold.

4. Sequencing without a single entry point Rather than prescribing a starting point, Her Own Space deliberately removes sequencing pressure. Members enter at any stage and learn across the full continuum of a retrofit journey. This challenges the design logic of most public-facing programmes, which rely on a single message reaching everyone at the same moment.

5. The early adopter argument — and what it means for policy Research cited in this episode suggests women adopt technology faster than men when it performs reliably, and abandon it faster when it does not. Designing for resilience is not the same as designing for uptake.

6. The agility gap in retrofit funding Innovation funding models are built around static, deliverable-defined outcomes. They can't accommodate iterative, community-embedded forms of innovation. Ellora argues this is a structural bias, and Her Own Space's membership model exists partly to avoid it.

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Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
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Transcription

Speaker #0
If you feel patronized, of course, you won't trust the contractor you have in front of you. But even if that contractor is extremely competent, but still there is something broken, how do we unbreak this in a way? So that's where the community can really help finding the right people.
Speaker #1
And I think that's exactly it. We talk about grid infrastructure and heat infrastructure, but I don't think we talk about trust as infrastructure.
Speaker #0
This episode is about retrofit, but from the place where it actually happens, inside the home. Women are already making the decisions. They manage renovation projects. They handle budgets. They think about comfort, health, ventilation, materials, and the long-term future of the house. Yet, the retrofit world still talks as if the real decision-maker were someone else. Retrofit is presented as a technical upgrade. In reality, it's a deeply human process. It involves risk, confidence, timing, and trust. So today, to discuss all this, I'm joined by Ellora Coupe, founder of Her Own Space. Her Own Space supports women homeowners navigating renovation and low-carbon upgrades with clarity and structure. It began as a community and evolved into a platform offering impartial guidance and peer support. In this conversation, we explore why retrofits can feel intimidating, why doing the right thing often becomes exhausting, and what shifts when women are recognized as the people already leading this project. Because retrofits will move faster when the system finally reflects reality. Ellora, welcome to the show.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Marine, for having me.
Speaker #0
So, Elora, you have worked across sustainability, design and community-led projects for years. When did it become clear to you that women homeowners were facing a specific set of barriers around retrofit?
Speaker #1
So, my father was a builder and I studied interior architecture. During the period I had my children, about 10 years ago, I... found myself inadvertently supporting women homeowners undertaking renovation projects. And sometimes it started off with friends. And I realized how complicated the process was from a woman's perspective. And understanding a lot more about the detail and the complexities of renovation work, it really caused concern. how complicated, what a risk it was, or what's probably the most expensive project you will ever undertake in your life. And based on that, I thought, how is this so difficult? How do we improve this? And then as I became more interested and deep dived into Retrofit, I asked myself a question, is there an opportunity for Retrofit to make the process easier for women undertaking considering the impact it has on them.
Speaker #0
Yeah and if you check now social media you see a lot of women who start their own process of retrofitting and you see a lot of attention and it's all I mean sometimes it's linked to it starts with aesthetics sometimes it starts with a more like technical need like they can't afford something that is already polished and finished. So you see a lot of DIY-ers in a way, but it's kind of hard to also know where to start, right? It's probably what you notice with your friends.
Speaker #1
Yes, I think we've got used to this narrative that even through the women we see as influencers, for example, undertaking complicated projects or television, we're made to think that the process is extraordinarily painful. It's not without. Terrible mistakes, terrible decision-making, problems in supply chains, poor workforce. I mean, actually, we've just kind of got used to it now. And it's extremely, I would go as far as saying dangerous project to undertake. You know, recently on the weekend, there was a case of a family whose builders left them completely bankrupt. And it was in the BBC. I can't recall the details, but it's frightening actually how... badly wrong it can go and the impact that can have on their lives. And I think my thought was, you know, women already use a community to navigate a lot of complex life stages. Why should this be any different? And one thing I found really interesting was as I moved from supporting one homeowner to the next, all the learning. And that work was lost. And it was restarting the entire process of supporting a homeowner again from scratch. And I found that frustrating. As a professional, I felt it wasn't helpful enough. And it's kind of why I wondered whether community could be a really powerful solution in terms of understanding behavioral science and how peer support supports us significantly when we're going through long-term. projects or changes and how community-based learning kind of improves our confidence in making decisions. But then obviously there's a big problem with trust. It is the deep-rooted thread is that women don't know who to trust when they undertake these projects. What do I trust in terms of my own decision-making and just those individuals? Am I making the right choice? Is this the right option? Have I missed something? Where do I start? Are these costs completely, you know, mad or are these the right costs? Yeah, there's a lot of trust is obviously an imperative complex aspect to all of this.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And it's also interesting because as women, we've all faced this kind of moment where we are not really being considered seriously, like as a serious. person to talk with because, I mean, I don't know, in my home, I'm the one dealing with energy. My partner doesn't understand anything about it. And now I see you laughing because, I mean, that can be the same with cars, that can be the same with renovation. And so, you know, renovation and dealing with contractors and so on, that's one of those spaces where the conversation can feel very quickly, extremely patronizing, right? So if... you feel patronized, of course, you won't trust the contractor you have in front of you. But even if that contractor is extremely competent, but still, you're like, I mean, there is something broken. How do we unbreak this in a way? So that's where the community can really help finding the right people.
Speaker #1
And I think that's exactly it. You know, we talk about grid infrastructure and heat structure But I don't think we talk about trust as infrastructure. I do. And if we've got this problem at the moment that households do not trust the system, this is going to be that quiet enemy of transition in a way. And it was really luxurious to be able to experiment very early on to see if, you know, micro levels of trust. because some people say it. think it's still a micro level I'm working on, but does that grow? Has that got potential? Does that create more transparency? And then obviously, you know, there's nothing more powerful. For example, you know, let's, you know, we've got challenges over heat pumps and understanding heat pumps. But, you know, if, for example, and we know retrofit is really cognitively heavy at the moment, you know, people are talking about heat loss calculations and sequencing, it's really overwhelming. But if 10 other women recognize themselves in one person's solution, does that have some exponential power in it? And does that reduce fear? Is that enough for those 10 women, you know, hopefully the future hundreds of women to see one woman's journey in their own, reflected in their own life enough to make them go, yeah, this means something. to me now. I'm not sort of frightened about this next step.
Speaker #0
That's extremely interesting. Recently on the pod, we had Sean Lyle, who spoke about behavioral sciences and, you know, kind of data to make sure that we, like policymakers, reach people where they actually are. And when you design energy policy or when you design an energy Well, in his case, it was more about energy service, but you really reach people where they are and not where you kind of imagine them in this ideal place. And indeed, so far, like they are when we talk, let's say, renovation. First, we miss that it's happening in people's home where probably the decision maker is a woman. But at the same time, like the point of... departure, like the starting point is not like tailored to their item needs. And what you manage to do is kind of reverse and generate this challenge and say, okay, let's start with the community. Let's start by showing that it works and that you can learn from peers without, you can be in a safe space where you are neither a kind of micromanaged or you're neither taken for granted for what you can actually deliver. So that's so many different starting points and objectives that really translate into something so intimate, like home is like the foundations of our lives. And I mean, there is this aspect that I think you're also passionate about. It's linked to women's health. I mean, some people need to renovate their home also because their home have made them sick. So there is this issue of indoor air quality, of bad cooking habits, about cleaning and the materials around us. So you're able to offer a platform that covers all of this. And I think it's pretty awesome.
Speaker #1
I believe in it wholeheartedly. And we know women obviously are already big decision makers in the health, but the health really hits. home as well. We know there's indoor air quality issues still not fully understood by women. You know, it's a bit cliche to say it's all to do with the cooking, the cleaning and the products we use, but it is. And we're predominantly those people using them. Then, you know, we spend 90% of our time indoors. And that actually was why I got really deeply involved during COVID because of the idea that the home, it shifted the importance of the home. as well at the same time. So we're not only working from home now so much more than we ever have. And, you know, we can look at all the data, the WHO guidelines on gas cooking, etc. And why moving from gas to electric is also fundamentally important. But I think when we talk about retrofit as well, I wanted to talk about the air that women and children are breathing, make the technology feel more human in the fact that it has, you know, health and physical interventions that are really important. How do you translate that? Rather than make women feel they have to go and commit to this technology they don't fully understand. And it's interesting, you talked about sequencing. It made me think about something that was a kind of unexpected benefit, is the real challenge we have in retrofit is sequencing. You know, what is going to be the entry point for a homeowner starting this project and how we going to hook into that? Is it going to be the fact they're renovating their home? Is carbon and energy efficiency going to be at the forefront? Is health going to be at the forefront? And then even if you choose one of those and you've got enough research and evidence, it still doesn't quite fit a homeowner's moment. They have that light bulb moment that this is something they want to go down. But that's where I thought if we're talking about renovation and it's already the intention of a person to do a renovation, then how do we make them aware of how much more it could be? And then what's really interesting about a community where the sequencing isn't dictated because everyone in there is at different stages. We've got a woman who recently joined. She's six months away from starting her project. So she's just wanting to immerse herself, see where people are at. And she's obviously going to gain from realizing there's lots of thoughts she hadn't had. While there's somebody who joined much later on who's actually already finished a considerable deep retrofit, you know, years later. But this is still phase one for them. They still have a phase two. Do we ever stop, you know, renovating retrofit our homes? Probably not. It's an ongoing maintenance. But, you know, they still want to stay up to date. So I really love the fact that the community got rid of the pressure of sequencing and having to have a starting point. as your only portal of entry because you're literally going to fall flat with thousands of people if the one message you're saying at that point in time is supposed to work for them we kind of got rid of that and then it's really powerful things like we have these community deep dives where people are like at a critical point and they're like oh my god i'm going to make a big decision we do a 30 minute with them everyone can join in everyone can watch everyone can listen And everyone, without any doubt, comes away, okay, right, I didn't know I had to think about this. Okay, that's another thing to add. And there's another thing as well that I found really interesting is a lot of coaching tools and process tools that we provide to people going through projects is very... You know, we have project tools and organizational tools and a lot of those women are incredibly good at organizing themselves. There will be one woman who will have six files on a shelf, all color coordinated with tabs, A4. And there will be another woman who is using a Remarkable or a tablet and she will be storing everything with folders and Pinterest folders, LinkedIn. And, you know, and there will be other women who will do it all by paper. But it doesn't matter. will all be just as organized as each other they will all have the system that works in their head for their life for their schedules for their family and we didn't want to provide those tools we're not like here you go here's how you manage your project from beginning to end so you know things like checklists are really powerful you know here you're about to employ a heat pump installer what are the questions i ask them you know what are the 50 questions i ask them to make sure I haven't missed anything. That's more important than anything that women actually need as an organizational tool. So, yeah, it's really interesting to see what works and why things work and how they need content and conversations happen. And I think in six months time, the activities and the projects going on with the snapshot of women will be very different to how they were six months ago.
Speaker #0
Why?
Speaker #1
Because, again, it's... all based on those six women doing a deep retrofit because they'll be of different ages, they'll be in different archetypes of property, they'll be in different regions of the UK, they'll have different council options, they'll have different, but they will still be doing a retrofit. But it will just be very, very, it's very unique. And that's another challenge, I think, that we're having is how to standardize, mass deliver.
Speaker #0
yeah when there are so many unique properties projects budgets yeah homes so that the community helps yeah yeah to do that yeah and uh you know if you apply for grants or stuff like that you may have municipal grants you may have national grants as well and that may change so you also need to kind of uh know how to navigate that and have the experience of someone who managed to do I mean I mean In EU policy now, there is this big, let's say, push for one-stop shops, which would be spaces that aim to fill the kind of renovation gaps, knowing where to go, who to apply, how to apply and so on. But it's true that overall, they are designed in a very, let's say, gender blind way. they are not really, they may be designed for like the. population for the city, for the town, etc. But they may not be designed with the kind of unique needs and approach that women of different age category, stage of life have. Like, if I am a young person who doesn't have kids, but have a very small budget and is ready to spend all my weekends doing retrofit, it's different than if I am someone who has lived in the same house for like 40 years and who's like a lantinester and who's really like tackling this as a project during her pension time, right? So it's a very, very different moment in life. However, what seems quite certain is that there is a mental burden in starting, in continuing. And I mean, I love the idea of the checklist and knowing where, what the questions are. Yeah. I mean, there are also lots of data and experience showing that women are usually the ones who research, compare, anticipate and plan for making the, let's say, most sustainable choices in the home. So I would kind of expect the same thing to happen when it's about such a big family project such as retrofitting. Or renovating the home. I mean, we need to have a conversation about these two words as well, because I think it's, it can be confusing too. But you've been telling that there are some great examples. But what is the mindset of the people when they first reach out to you? Have they already like shown some?
Speaker #1
um signs of mental overload or or is it like and feel some relief or what i'm curious really it's fun it's funny you say that when people join uh they fill out a profile that shares everyone can see you know where they're living where they counsel their home but we have also five questions which are actually it's not five questions five options that really you take to show where you are emotionally in the project are you completely on top of things, you know, feeling excited, or are you completely overloaded? I can't off the top of my head remember exactly then, but we wanted to capture that emotional point of entry to see how they were feeling. And also for people to feel like it was okay to say this is completely overwhelming, this is a disaster, I don't know where to start. Because emotions come into this and they should come into this. It's interesting because we don't advocate any specific route to retrofit we advocate standards you know obviously you know passive house standard benefit for example is you know the ultimate deep retrofit and we all know that's not accessible to everyone but at least people know what what options they have but there was another interesting you talked about a one-stop shops but it's interesting how good it can be for some of our homeowners will go through a one-stop shop because... we had one woman homeowner who really built a really good relationship with one of the owners of one of the employees of one stock shop who came in to assess really understood she felt really comfortable she asked the right questions she got the answer she needed and she doesn't want to manage the project she wants someone to manage the process for her and she's not doing any renovations she's living in a complicated actually tenement in Scotland for example I'm Michael. with restrictions. So she needs someone who understands that type of property in the area, who could do all the works for her from, you know, fabric first measures and technology measures. And another thing, sorry if I'm skipping around so much to think about, which is I find another really interesting research point is we talk about women in the technology and there's a lot of perception that women in technology don't mix, which we need to kind of shake off a little bit.
Speaker #0
A little.
Speaker #1
And it's astounding how that exists. But actually, the research that I've read over the last few years is that women are actually the earlier adopters of technology. And the reason is, if technology works extremely well for them, they will jump on it, they will use it to their I don't teach. very, very quickly. If it does not work, whether that's the user interface or the technology doesn't live up to promises or it breaks or it fails, they will stop using it. The research actually shows that men will persevere with poor technology. They will fix, they will figure it, they will want it. Women are like, if this works, I'm done. I'll be a doctor within 24 hours. if this fails I'm I'm And obviously it's a very generalized view, but I found it really interesting.
Speaker #0
I totally recognize myself. Like I need to find solutions. If something doesn't deliver, like why should I keep my mental burden up with this kind of thing? I mean, it has to deliver. It has to have a system. It has to be efficient. That's really funny and really interesting also because whenever you join kind of industry events, And like policy event and things, as much as I do, many of the developers of this kind of project, infrastructure, technology and so on, are men who are never, and I mean, the women, and no one is even asking if a woman would be using something differently. Like it's, I don't know, I've been kind of circling around, for instance, the term renovation that, I don't know. please correct me but I associated more with decoration with something a little lighter like you renovate your bathroom you renovate your kitchen you renovate your living room to and you bring more plants or I don't know colors or whatever whereas retrofit you have this idea of okay let's get let's get things dirty and move everything around and and tear some walls and stuff like that. So, yeah, Maybe a little bit more, yeah, heavy-muscled thingy. It's true. Okay. It's true.
Speaker #1
It's very funny because we joked very early on when we built the community up several years ago that we don't show pretty pictures. You know, we're not showing. but but Actually, no, I say that and there are women. They will show, you know, we show in kitchens afterwards, completed homes. That's definitely because it's wonderful to see that finished, especially if you've been on the journey. But it's true, the majority of pictures we show are, here's my underfloor insulation. Here's the reveal on my window. You know, the workman's just left. How do I, you know, so it's the bones of the property. Yeah. I also think, you know, there is an extraordinary amount of amazing content on interior decor and colours and, you know, choices. But also, I think one of our entry points of conversation very early on was actually also about paint. And paint was a really significant, interesting sustainability. Because if you consider the amount of surfaces your home is covered in paint, what does that mean? in terms of being a permeable paint, trapping moisture. That was a really interesting conversation that made women start to question what does sustainable paint and eco-paint actually mean? It was really much, you know, if you're using moisture permeable materials, actually you don't want to put the wrong paint on them. And, you know, if you're talking about VOCs and gassing, you know, what are the petrochemicals in this paint? How does it break down? How has it been manufactured? And there was suddenly a surge, you know, products that we've been really well marketed over the last few years, that there were easily 30 eco-focused paint options. And that was a really nice kind of conversation starter on what retrofit means. It actually could be taken all the way through to materials matter. And then women were asking about insulative wallpaper. Does that work? Am I trapping moisture? Am I causing damp? And obviously the damp conversation is really important for women. So I think it's really important to have a place where that organic conversation can happen. Thank you.
Speaker #0
Yeah, and that there is no stupid question and it's really... Exactly. Yeah, yeah. No, that's very interesting also because I think that circles back to the idea of trust. Like you see brands advertising, you see influencers advertising, but you never have this kind of real, raw, honest, unfiltered conversation, right? Because we are talking very much about virtual spaces where we can find... Some people who are just like-minded in a way. And it's like this return on experience. It's totally gold. Have you worked with some brands to make sure that this kind of feedback from your community goes to them? I would see it as one of the natural development and ways to develop your community and your own space.
Speaker #1
We want to be really careful. At the very beginning, we worked with... graham stone uh for example we were really impressed i was really impressed with the product um but always very clear that if something better comes along we're not advocating only this product and um it was
Speaker #0
interesting after you started to delve into all the data and the science behind what actually was going on and it's really still hard even today to actually navigate that I don't have all the answers and that's what led me very much to ensure two things with this the work we do we're not sponsored we're not funded by anybody we're funded simply by the membership costs because if we're not serving the community, then... They speak for us in terms of what we do. It was really, really important to get rid of all the bias and all the sponsorship elements that go on in this space because that is what's causing a huge amount of stress for women homeowners. With the trades and the workmen who come in, are they affiliated? Are they always using this product? Are they getting a cut? You know, is my builder recommending something because they get a discount at the merchant store for this, you know? And that is causing a lot of fear around trust. So what we wanted was to be very, very clear from the beginning that our code of conduct would never push a product on them, would never promote a product. And we had no affiliation whatsoever with any product that we think is a good option. We have other things, you know, if you recommend something, we said to the women in the space, You have to have used it and you have to be able to explain why it worked for you. Because you can't stop people recommending things that are working for them. But we just want to eliminate any of that promotion going on and marketing and advertising going on. Because it's a really exhausting thread that runs through when you're trying to get the right answers. And then it also lasts for agility. Because in this market, there's new products, new materials all the time. new technology coming up. I think it's really short-sighted to be stuck on recommending a product when we need the retrofit industry to shift and innovate all the time and get better all the time. So it was more about creating a space for good, trusted advice. And, you know, if someone reaches out and said, I'm looking for, for example, extract a fan, has anyone found one this the conversation is yes i've just actually i've This is what mine looks like. But the conversation is also about performance. What's your extraction performance? Is it ducting out? Is it a nice, clean duct? And then all the other additional important aspects can be threaded in quite quickly. Because as you said, women tend to be very good at becoming professionals before they choose things as well. The level of research is there. They don't make decisions hastily. And the research they do is thorough. And what's interesting is there's probably a lot of people who have a perception of the level of retrofit or thinking or conversations going on in a space like this. And, you know, granted, even I was surprised at the level of knowledge that a lot of women had joining who were doing some very complicated technical decision making, who were able to have very, very complicated conversations on things. This is not just at the level. And I think we have to be careful as a whole. The retrofit industry doesn't patronize consumers. And that was what was also really interesting. As I said, to see the level they had before they came in was high. And granted, there are still women coming in who are starting from scratch and just thinking about things and knowing this matters, but not sure how. But that experience and knowledge.
Speaker #1
grows very very very quickly yeah and we have women on their second retrofit already oh wow yeah that's an interesting again who would know that's that's that's really interesting i'm kind of curious uh if you have uh the kind of most let's say unexpected or more most unusual questions or like community debates you ever had, like that led you to this kind of aha moment, it is not what I was expecting at all, like really.
Speaker #0
I think it kind of comes back to the level of knowledge was interesting. What was really useful to see as well was with adopting technology, when women found that technology, you know, heat pump, solar, for example, working really, really well, they were as good as anybody in terms of understanding it. understanding how it was working using the technology, using the user interface, and became really quickly advocates and technical advisors themselves back to the women in the space. And it's interesting. moment where I honestly got a bit of cold feet at the beginning because what I worried was is how do you create a space with integrity in terms of the advice that's shared and also is there an ethical issue about professional advice with women sharing advice without professional involvement to enough of a degree you know it comes to building work and I had several women saying you should not allow a space like this you know this woman's giving the wrong advice to this woman and I was like how do you manage that how do you how do you so I was really really lucky very very early on and I'll give a shout out to her Sarah Shooter she's a construction lawyer in the industry she joined really early on and I'll admit I was like oh terrified oh she's going to say what are you doing all this professional advice going on and she really knows her her stuff from a legal point perspective. And from day one, she was the biggest advocate. And she said, because what you're doing is risk managing, reducing the risk for people to make the wrong mistakes. You're giving them a chance to actually avoid disputes and terrible decision making. And that in itself is so valuable. And she said, as long as you're very clear in terms and conditions and, you know, for example, that, you know, please get professional advice. When you're making key decisions, please sense check this, for example. Unfortunately, you know, we have to protect ourselves in case anyone says, but this was wrong. But the benefit is so much greater than the risk. And that's what gave us the reassurance to kind of carry on. And women are, you know, women are extremely aware of this. You know, they're not going to make big decisions based, but at least they have an awareness of what decision options they have. Yeah. Yeah. What question maybe do I need to ask on this then in case this is the wrong route? And yeah,
Speaker #1
I mean, that's already such an enormous gap that you are filling, like making sure they know the options and, you know, they have the tools to really identify what looks okay from what looks a little dodgy. So yeah, that's exactly what... Some platforms are trying to do. And I mean, that's probably one of the concerns that I have with the one-stop shops that wouldn't like in the way they are designed and the aim they are for, since they are a kind of institutional tools, they have to deliver only like 100% checked out options. So maybe they will miss on the informal brainstorming, checking the options approach because...
Speaker #0
they just can't do this right it's hard the mass rollout of retrofit is really really difficult as we know from the schemes of the past that haven't lasted or you know we know from quality assurance risks over the last few years what's gone wrong and i think that's what we also want to be as a warning space because we don't you know it's a real shame at the moment that there is this negative perception on so many aspects of retrofit, whether it's technology or the fabric measure errors going wrong through Eco4. You know, that's why, again, trust has got to be a really important infrastructure thought process in all of this. You know, we don't want to leave thousands of households, again, in a position where there's no consistency. And that's the thing, how do you mass rollout and still give people the tools to make thousands of unique positions and decisions on their own property is really important and you know I don't have honestly the answer on what would be the ideal end result I mean that's a very simplistic question does everyone need to be passive house do we just need to get heat pumps in to every single home and I'm certainly not in the position to know the answer to that But if I can see an opportunity to fix something you said, Maya, in a blind spot in this, that it's got to be human-centered. And we mustn't underestimate the innovation in human-centered approaches is a thing. It is actually a thing. A lot of people will argue, but your communities. A community is not a product. It's not a business. I would argue the complete opposite at the moment with the world we're in.
Speaker #1
Yeah, because you learn from your peers, right?
Speaker #0
Yes. And it's extremely important and impactful and tangible. You know, we just have to look like organizations like Mumsnet several decades ago. And power developed to swing, you know, voting.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Not a bad thing at a time like this. So. You never know. You never know when the next really innovative, human-centered solution is going to come up. We have to be open to that.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's really important, like the power of the community. I mean, we are reaching the end of this podcast. It's been so interesting and so informative. I'm really so excited that it's released on the week of the Sustainable International Women's Day. Yeah. One last question for you. If institutions, I mean, policy, policymakers, markets really took the time to assess the lessons from her own space seriously, What would... they need to rethink about how retrofit or renovation is designed and supported.
Speaker #0
I think one of the most understood elements that we need to thread through is how humans interact with retrofit. This is not consumer research. We have to be very, very careful. Working several years ago, for example, with M&S and Rose at the time, they stopped doing customer research because of one really key finding and they were the biggest at it. Just for a period, they said, we've got people coming in who are really conscious about the climate, but they still want a parking space. I mean, we've got people who are coming in really concerned about their food and health, but they still want to buy a cream puff, you know, as they walk out the shop. We've got to be really careful. not to do too much consumer pigeonholing and actually understand that humans have the ability to have their minds changed, to understand things better. If well-designed innovation factors in their journey, their needs as individuals, we need to have a human-centered approach. I don't think people understand exactly what that is. I think we need to look at lots of other areas. We need to look at design. We need to look at the design industry, something I worked with. We need to look at design effectiveness more. We need to think about how to break things down. We need to look at neuroscience. I think there's loads of really interesting areas that other industries have used and utilised very powerfully that we may be missing as an industry. Because at the moment, solutions for retrofit become... empowered based on funding models that are designed to support innovation on things that are static in the sense that here's a product here's a solution this is how it'll work this is why it'll work and this is the impact it will have but what we don't allow for in that process is innovation that's agile that evolves that's experimental what if you you know you have a community innovation. And that's the lovely thing about working with her own space and not relying on funding. We don't have to look the same. We can evolve all the time. We can create content that changes. We can see a gap. We can see an opportunity. And that agility in businesses' technology isn't encouraged, supported or allowed in many senses. And then we're missing a trick because things become outdated. If they don't work, there's no model to shift that. It's a very interesting thought that I think we need to make sure is embedded in any innovation that gets funded and any solutions that get funded is that we allow a little bit of change and shift if they're not working to evolve them, improve them. Or a lot can be invested, a lot of time and money into things that don't work very, very quickly.
Speaker #1
That's, yeah, that's so interesting. And I guess that it's also not only about the, like the, in this case of renovation, not only about the home, but also about the neighborhood, the way people approach their community, like a physical community and so on. So that makes so much sense. And there is also this kind of appetite for beauty, appetite for connection, human connection, that is, must be front and center. And that's... I mean, that's really nice to have someone who has done all of this, put these aspects into perspective. Because, you know, I've been working on the New European House Initiative for many years. And that's exactly the kind of concept we try to approach, but sometimes from more of a policy or technical perspective. But now you say, yeah, we need the community to make it happen. And that's at the end of the day, it's a like the renovating, retrofitting your... own space, your home. It's a human adventure. So let's put the human really front and center. Thank you so much, Laura. I learned so much from Marine.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #1
Energetic explores the people, policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. I am Marine Cornelis. If you found this conversation valuable, you can share it with colleagues working on housing, governance, and consumer protection. You will find references and further reading in the show notes. Until next time.

Chapters

Introduction to Retrofit and Community Support
0sec
Women as Key Decision Makers in Renovation
1min
The Role of Trust in Home Renovation Projects
2min
Navigating Complexities of Retrofit: A Woman's Perspective
3min
Community Learning and Peer Support in Retrofit
4min
Health and Environmental Considerations in Home Renovation
5min
The Future of Retrofit: A Human-Centered Approach
6min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Hosted by Marine Cornelis, Energ’Ethic brings together policymakers, regulators, industry leaders, city practitioners, researchers, and civil society voices to examine what makes energy transitions succeed—or fail—in the real world.

Beyond technology and targets, the podcast focuses on trust, power, consumer rights, digitalisation, and energy justice. Each conversation connects policy and market design with lived experience, unpacking how decisions taken in boardrooms and institutions translate into everyday realities for people and communities.

Energ’Ethic is not about slogans or quick fixes. It is a space for rigorous, grounded conversations about resilience, legitimacy, and the social conditions required for lasting climate and energy strategies.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

This is a conversation about why retrofit moves slowly when it ignores who is already leading the work.

Reach out to Marine Cornelis via BlueSky or LinkedIn
Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

Support Energ'Ethic on Patreon

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
If you feel patronized, of course, you won't trust the contractor you have in front of you. But even if that contractor is extremely competent, but still there is something broken, how do we unbreak this in a way? So that's where the community can really help finding the right people.
Speaker #1
And I think that's exactly it. We talk about grid infrastructure and heat infrastructure, but I don't think we talk about trust as infrastructure.
Speaker #0
This episode is about retrofit, but from the place where it actually happens, inside the home. Women are already making the decisions. They manage renovation projects. They handle budgets. They think about comfort, health, ventilation, materials, and the long-term future of the house. Yet, the retrofit world still talks as if the real decision-maker were someone else. Retrofit is presented as a technical upgrade. In reality, it's a deeply human process. It involves risk, confidence, timing, and trust. So today, to discuss all this, I'm joined by Ellora Coupe, founder of Her Own Space. Her Own Space supports women homeowners navigating renovation and low-carbon upgrades with clarity and structure. It began as a community and evolved into a platform offering impartial guidance and peer support. In this conversation, we explore why retrofits can feel intimidating, why doing the right thing often becomes exhausting, and what shifts when women are recognized as the people already leading this project. Because retrofits will move faster when the system finally reflects reality. Ellora, welcome to the show.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Marine, for having me.
Speaker #0
So, Elora, you have worked across sustainability, design and community-led projects for years. When did it become clear to you that women homeowners were facing a specific set of barriers around retrofit?
Speaker #1
So, my father was a builder and I studied interior architecture. During the period I had my children, about 10 years ago, I... found myself inadvertently supporting women homeowners undertaking renovation projects. And sometimes it started off with friends. And I realized how complicated the process was from a woman's perspective. And understanding a lot more about the detail and the complexities of renovation work, it really caused concern. how complicated, what a risk it was, or what's probably the most expensive project you will ever undertake in your life. And based on that, I thought, how is this so difficult? How do we improve this? And then as I became more interested and deep dived into Retrofit, I asked myself a question, is there an opportunity for Retrofit to make the process easier for women undertaking considering the impact it has on them.
Speaker #0
Yeah and if you check now social media you see a lot of women who start their own process of retrofitting and you see a lot of attention and it's all I mean sometimes it's linked to it starts with aesthetics sometimes it starts with a more like technical need like they can't afford something that is already polished and finished. So you see a lot of DIY-ers in a way, but it's kind of hard to also know where to start, right? It's probably what you notice with your friends.
Speaker #1
Yes, I think we've got used to this narrative that even through the women we see as influencers, for example, undertaking complicated projects or television, we're made to think that the process is extraordinarily painful. It's not without. Terrible mistakes, terrible decision-making, problems in supply chains, poor workforce. I mean, actually, we've just kind of got used to it now. And it's extremely, I would go as far as saying dangerous project to undertake. You know, recently on the weekend, there was a case of a family whose builders left them completely bankrupt. And it was in the BBC. I can't recall the details, but it's frightening actually how... badly wrong it can go and the impact that can have on their lives. And I think my thought was, you know, women already use a community to navigate a lot of complex life stages. Why should this be any different? And one thing I found really interesting was as I moved from supporting one homeowner to the next, all the learning. And that work was lost. And it was restarting the entire process of supporting a homeowner again from scratch. And I found that frustrating. As a professional, I felt it wasn't helpful enough. And it's kind of why I wondered whether community could be a really powerful solution in terms of understanding behavioral science and how peer support supports us significantly when we're going through long-term. projects or changes and how community-based learning kind of improves our confidence in making decisions. But then obviously there's a big problem with trust. It is the deep-rooted thread is that women don't know who to trust when they undertake these projects. What do I trust in terms of my own decision-making and just those individuals? Am I making the right choice? Is this the right option? Have I missed something? Where do I start? Are these costs completely, you know, mad or are these the right costs? Yeah, there's a lot of trust is obviously an imperative complex aspect to all of this.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And it's also interesting because as women, we've all faced this kind of moment where we are not really being considered seriously, like as a serious. person to talk with because, I mean, I don't know, in my home, I'm the one dealing with energy. My partner doesn't understand anything about it. And now I see you laughing because, I mean, that can be the same with cars, that can be the same with renovation. And so, you know, renovation and dealing with contractors and so on, that's one of those spaces where the conversation can feel very quickly, extremely patronizing, right? So if... you feel patronized, of course, you won't trust the contractor you have in front of you. But even if that contractor is extremely competent, but still, you're like, I mean, there is something broken. How do we unbreak this in a way? So that's where the community can really help finding the right people.
Speaker #1
And I think that's exactly it. You know, we talk about grid infrastructure and heat structure But I don't think we talk about trust as infrastructure. I do. And if we've got this problem at the moment that households do not trust the system, this is going to be that quiet enemy of transition in a way. And it was really luxurious to be able to experiment very early on to see if, you know, micro levels of trust. because some people say it. think it's still a micro level I'm working on, but does that grow? Has that got potential? Does that create more transparency? And then obviously, you know, there's nothing more powerful. For example, you know, let's, you know, we've got challenges over heat pumps and understanding heat pumps. But, you know, if, for example, and we know retrofit is really cognitively heavy at the moment, you know, people are talking about heat loss calculations and sequencing, it's really overwhelming. But if 10 other women recognize themselves in one person's solution, does that have some exponential power in it? And does that reduce fear? Is that enough for those 10 women, you know, hopefully the future hundreds of women to see one woman's journey in their own, reflected in their own life enough to make them go, yeah, this means something. to me now. I'm not sort of frightened about this next step.
Speaker #0
That's extremely interesting. Recently on the pod, we had Sean Lyle, who spoke about behavioral sciences and, you know, kind of data to make sure that we, like policymakers, reach people where they actually are. And when you design energy policy or when you design an energy Well, in his case, it was more about energy service, but you really reach people where they are and not where you kind of imagine them in this ideal place. And indeed, so far, like they are when we talk, let's say, renovation. First, we miss that it's happening in people's home where probably the decision maker is a woman. But at the same time, like the point of... departure, like the starting point is not like tailored to their item needs. And what you manage to do is kind of reverse and generate this challenge and say, okay, let's start with the community. Let's start by showing that it works and that you can learn from peers without, you can be in a safe space where you are neither a kind of micromanaged or you're neither taken for granted for what you can actually deliver. So that's so many different starting points and objectives that really translate into something so intimate, like home is like the foundations of our lives. And I mean, there is this aspect that I think you're also passionate about. It's linked to women's health. I mean, some people need to renovate their home also because their home have made them sick. So there is this issue of indoor air quality, of bad cooking habits, about cleaning and the materials around us. So you're able to offer a platform that covers all of this. And I think it's pretty awesome.
Speaker #1
I believe in it wholeheartedly. And we know women obviously are already big decision makers in the health, but the health really hits. home as well. We know there's indoor air quality issues still not fully understood by women. You know, it's a bit cliche to say it's all to do with the cooking, the cleaning and the products we use, but it is. And we're predominantly those people using them. Then, you know, we spend 90% of our time indoors. And that actually was why I got really deeply involved during COVID because of the idea that the home, it shifted the importance of the home. as well at the same time. So we're not only working from home now so much more than we ever have. And, you know, we can look at all the data, the WHO guidelines on gas cooking, etc. And why moving from gas to electric is also fundamentally important. But I think when we talk about retrofit as well, I wanted to talk about the air that women and children are breathing, make the technology feel more human in the fact that it has, you know, health and physical interventions that are really important. How do you translate that? Rather than make women feel they have to go and commit to this technology they don't fully understand. And it's interesting, you talked about sequencing. It made me think about something that was a kind of unexpected benefit, is the real challenge we have in retrofit is sequencing. You know, what is going to be the entry point for a homeowner starting this project and how we going to hook into that? Is it going to be the fact they're renovating their home? Is carbon and energy efficiency going to be at the forefront? Is health going to be at the forefront? And then even if you choose one of those and you've got enough research and evidence, it still doesn't quite fit a homeowner's moment. They have that light bulb moment that this is something they want to go down. But that's where I thought if we're talking about renovation and it's already the intention of a person to do a renovation, then how do we make them aware of how much more it could be? And then what's really interesting about a community where the sequencing isn't dictated because everyone in there is at different stages. We've got a woman who recently joined. She's six months away from starting her project. So she's just wanting to immerse herself, see where people are at. And she's obviously going to gain from realizing there's lots of thoughts she hadn't had. While there's somebody who joined much later on who's actually already finished a considerable deep retrofit, you know, years later. But this is still phase one for them. They still have a phase two. Do we ever stop, you know, renovating retrofit our homes? Probably not. It's an ongoing maintenance. But, you know, they still want to stay up to date. So I really love the fact that the community got rid of the pressure of sequencing and having to have a starting point. as your only portal of entry because you're literally going to fall flat with thousands of people if the one message you're saying at that point in time is supposed to work for them we kind of got rid of that and then it's really powerful things like we have these community deep dives where people are like at a critical point and they're like oh my god i'm going to make a big decision we do a 30 minute with them everyone can join in everyone can watch everyone can listen And everyone, without any doubt, comes away, okay, right, I didn't know I had to think about this. Okay, that's another thing to add. And there's another thing as well that I found really interesting is a lot of coaching tools and process tools that we provide to people going through projects is very... You know, we have project tools and organizational tools and a lot of those women are incredibly good at organizing themselves. There will be one woman who will have six files on a shelf, all color coordinated with tabs, A4. And there will be another woman who is using a Remarkable or a tablet and she will be storing everything with folders and Pinterest folders, LinkedIn. And, you know, and there will be other women who will do it all by paper. But it doesn't matter. will all be just as organized as each other they will all have the system that works in their head for their life for their schedules for their family and we didn't want to provide those tools we're not like here you go here's how you manage your project from beginning to end so you know things like checklists are really powerful you know here you're about to employ a heat pump installer what are the questions i ask them you know what are the 50 questions i ask them to make sure I haven't missed anything. That's more important than anything that women actually need as an organizational tool. So, yeah, it's really interesting to see what works and why things work and how they need content and conversations happen. And I think in six months time, the activities and the projects going on with the snapshot of women will be very different to how they were six months ago.
Speaker #0
Why?
Speaker #1
Because, again, it's... all based on those six women doing a deep retrofit because they'll be of different ages, they'll be in different archetypes of property, they'll be in different regions of the UK, they'll have different council options, they'll have different, but they will still be doing a retrofit. But it will just be very, very, it's very unique. And that's another challenge, I think, that we're having is how to standardize, mass deliver.
Speaker #0
yeah when there are so many unique properties projects budgets yeah homes so that the community helps yeah yeah to do that yeah and uh you know if you apply for grants or stuff like that you may have municipal grants you may have national grants as well and that may change so you also need to kind of uh know how to navigate that and have the experience of someone who managed to do I mean I mean In EU policy now, there is this big, let's say, push for one-stop shops, which would be spaces that aim to fill the kind of renovation gaps, knowing where to go, who to apply, how to apply and so on. But it's true that overall, they are designed in a very, let's say, gender blind way. they are not really, they may be designed for like the. population for the city, for the town, etc. But they may not be designed with the kind of unique needs and approach that women of different age category, stage of life have. Like, if I am a young person who doesn't have kids, but have a very small budget and is ready to spend all my weekends doing retrofit, it's different than if I am someone who has lived in the same house for like 40 years and who's like a lantinester and who's really like tackling this as a project during her pension time, right? So it's a very, very different moment in life. However, what seems quite certain is that there is a mental burden in starting, in continuing. And I mean, I love the idea of the checklist and knowing where, what the questions are. Yeah. I mean, there are also lots of data and experience showing that women are usually the ones who research, compare, anticipate and plan for making the, let's say, most sustainable choices in the home. So I would kind of expect the same thing to happen when it's about such a big family project such as retrofitting. Or renovating the home. I mean, we need to have a conversation about these two words as well, because I think it's, it can be confusing too. But you've been telling that there are some great examples. But what is the mindset of the people when they first reach out to you? Have they already like shown some?
Speaker #1
um signs of mental overload or or is it like and feel some relief or what i'm curious really it's fun it's funny you say that when people join uh they fill out a profile that shares everyone can see you know where they're living where they counsel their home but we have also five questions which are actually it's not five questions five options that really you take to show where you are emotionally in the project are you completely on top of things, you know, feeling excited, or are you completely overloaded? I can't off the top of my head remember exactly then, but we wanted to capture that emotional point of entry to see how they were feeling. And also for people to feel like it was okay to say this is completely overwhelming, this is a disaster, I don't know where to start. Because emotions come into this and they should come into this. It's interesting because we don't advocate any specific route to retrofit we advocate standards you know obviously you know passive house standard benefit for example is you know the ultimate deep retrofit and we all know that's not accessible to everyone but at least people know what what options they have but there was another interesting you talked about a one-stop shops but it's interesting how good it can be for some of our homeowners will go through a one-stop shop because... we had one woman homeowner who really built a really good relationship with one of the owners of one of the employees of one stock shop who came in to assess really understood she felt really comfortable she asked the right questions she got the answer she needed and she doesn't want to manage the project she wants someone to manage the process for her and she's not doing any renovations she's living in a complicated actually tenement in Scotland for example I'm Michael. with restrictions. So she needs someone who understands that type of property in the area, who could do all the works for her from, you know, fabric first measures and technology measures. And another thing, sorry if I'm skipping around so much to think about, which is I find another really interesting research point is we talk about women in the technology and there's a lot of perception that women in technology don't mix, which we need to kind of shake off a little bit.
Speaker #0
A little.
Speaker #1
And it's astounding how that exists. But actually, the research that I've read over the last few years is that women are actually the earlier adopters of technology. And the reason is, if technology works extremely well for them, they will jump on it, they will use it to their I don't teach. very, very quickly. If it does not work, whether that's the user interface or the technology doesn't live up to promises or it breaks or it fails, they will stop using it. The research actually shows that men will persevere with poor technology. They will fix, they will figure it, they will want it. Women are like, if this works, I'm done. I'll be a doctor within 24 hours. if this fails I'm I'm And obviously it's a very generalized view, but I found it really interesting.
Speaker #0
I totally recognize myself. Like I need to find solutions. If something doesn't deliver, like why should I keep my mental burden up with this kind of thing? I mean, it has to deliver. It has to have a system. It has to be efficient. That's really funny and really interesting also because whenever you join kind of industry events, And like policy event and things, as much as I do, many of the developers of this kind of project, infrastructure, technology and so on, are men who are never, and I mean, the women, and no one is even asking if a woman would be using something differently. Like it's, I don't know, I've been kind of circling around, for instance, the term renovation that, I don't know. please correct me but I associated more with decoration with something a little lighter like you renovate your bathroom you renovate your kitchen you renovate your living room to and you bring more plants or I don't know colors or whatever whereas retrofit you have this idea of okay let's get let's get things dirty and move everything around and and tear some walls and stuff like that. So, yeah, Maybe a little bit more, yeah, heavy-muscled thingy. It's true. Okay. It's true.
Speaker #1
It's very funny because we joked very early on when we built the community up several years ago that we don't show pretty pictures. You know, we're not showing. but but Actually, no, I say that and there are women. They will show, you know, we show in kitchens afterwards, completed homes. That's definitely because it's wonderful to see that finished, especially if you've been on the journey. But it's true, the majority of pictures we show are, here's my underfloor insulation. Here's the reveal on my window. You know, the workman's just left. How do I, you know, so it's the bones of the property. Yeah. I also think, you know, there is an extraordinary amount of amazing content on interior decor and colours and, you know, choices. But also, I think one of our entry points of conversation very early on was actually also about paint. And paint was a really significant, interesting sustainability. Because if you consider the amount of surfaces your home is covered in paint, what does that mean? in terms of being a permeable paint, trapping moisture. That was a really interesting conversation that made women start to question what does sustainable paint and eco-paint actually mean? It was really much, you know, if you're using moisture permeable materials, actually you don't want to put the wrong paint on them. And, you know, if you're talking about VOCs and gassing, you know, what are the petrochemicals in this paint? How does it break down? How has it been manufactured? And there was suddenly a surge, you know, products that we've been really well marketed over the last few years, that there were easily 30 eco-focused paint options. And that was a really nice kind of conversation starter on what retrofit means. It actually could be taken all the way through to materials matter. And then women were asking about insulative wallpaper. Does that work? Am I trapping moisture? Am I causing damp? And obviously the damp conversation is really important for women. So I think it's really important to have a place where that organic conversation can happen. Thank you.
Speaker #0
Yeah, and that there is no stupid question and it's really... Exactly. Yeah, yeah. No, that's very interesting also because I think that circles back to the idea of trust. Like you see brands advertising, you see influencers advertising, but you never have this kind of real, raw, honest, unfiltered conversation, right? Because we are talking very much about virtual spaces where we can find... Some people who are just like-minded in a way. And it's like this return on experience. It's totally gold. Have you worked with some brands to make sure that this kind of feedback from your community goes to them? I would see it as one of the natural development and ways to develop your community and your own space.
Speaker #1
We want to be really careful. At the very beginning, we worked with... graham stone uh for example we were really impressed i was really impressed with the product um but always very clear that if something better comes along we're not advocating only this product and um it was
Speaker #0
interesting after you started to delve into all the data and the science behind what actually was going on and it's really still hard even today to actually navigate that I don't have all the answers and that's what led me very much to ensure two things with this the work we do we're not sponsored we're not funded by anybody we're funded simply by the membership costs because if we're not serving the community, then... They speak for us in terms of what we do. It was really, really important to get rid of all the bias and all the sponsorship elements that go on in this space because that is what's causing a huge amount of stress for women homeowners. With the trades and the workmen who come in, are they affiliated? Are they always using this product? Are they getting a cut? You know, is my builder recommending something because they get a discount at the merchant store for this, you know? And that is causing a lot of fear around trust. So what we wanted was to be very, very clear from the beginning that our code of conduct would never push a product on them, would never promote a product. And we had no affiliation whatsoever with any product that we think is a good option. We have other things, you know, if you recommend something, we said to the women in the space, You have to have used it and you have to be able to explain why it worked for you. Because you can't stop people recommending things that are working for them. But we just want to eliminate any of that promotion going on and marketing and advertising going on. Because it's a really exhausting thread that runs through when you're trying to get the right answers. And then it also lasts for agility. Because in this market, there's new products, new materials all the time. new technology coming up. I think it's really short-sighted to be stuck on recommending a product when we need the retrofit industry to shift and innovate all the time and get better all the time. So it was more about creating a space for good, trusted advice. And, you know, if someone reaches out and said, I'm looking for, for example, extract a fan, has anyone found one this the conversation is yes i've just actually i've This is what mine looks like. But the conversation is also about performance. What's your extraction performance? Is it ducting out? Is it a nice, clean duct? And then all the other additional important aspects can be threaded in quite quickly. Because as you said, women tend to be very good at becoming professionals before they choose things as well. The level of research is there. They don't make decisions hastily. And the research they do is thorough. And what's interesting is there's probably a lot of people who have a perception of the level of retrofit or thinking or conversations going on in a space like this. And, you know, granted, even I was surprised at the level of knowledge that a lot of women had joining who were doing some very complicated technical decision making, who were able to have very, very complicated conversations on things. This is not just at the level. And I think we have to be careful as a whole. The retrofit industry doesn't patronize consumers. And that was what was also really interesting. As I said, to see the level they had before they came in was high. And granted, there are still women coming in who are starting from scratch and just thinking about things and knowing this matters, but not sure how. But that experience and knowledge.
Speaker #1
grows very very very quickly yeah and we have women on their second retrofit already oh wow yeah that's an interesting again who would know that's that's that's really interesting i'm kind of curious uh if you have uh the kind of most let's say unexpected or more most unusual questions or like community debates you ever had, like that led you to this kind of aha moment, it is not what I was expecting at all, like really.
Speaker #0
I think it kind of comes back to the level of knowledge was interesting. What was really useful to see as well was with adopting technology, when women found that technology, you know, heat pump, solar, for example, working really, really well, they were as good as anybody in terms of understanding it. understanding how it was working using the technology, using the user interface, and became really quickly advocates and technical advisors themselves back to the women in the space. And it's interesting. moment where I honestly got a bit of cold feet at the beginning because what I worried was is how do you create a space with integrity in terms of the advice that's shared and also is there an ethical issue about professional advice with women sharing advice without professional involvement to enough of a degree you know it comes to building work and I had several women saying you should not allow a space like this you know this woman's giving the wrong advice to this woman and I was like how do you manage that how do you how do you so I was really really lucky very very early on and I'll give a shout out to her Sarah Shooter she's a construction lawyer in the industry she joined really early on and I'll admit I was like oh terrified oh she's going to say what are you doing all this professional advice going on and she really knows her her stuff from a legal point perspective. And from day one, she was the biggest advocate. And she said, because what you're doing is risk managing, reducing the risk for people to make the wrong mistakes. You're giving them a chance to actually avoid disputes and terrible decision making. And that in itself is so valuable. And she said, as long as you're very clear in terms and conditions and, you know, for example, that, you know, please get professional advice. When you're making key decisions, please sense check this, for example. Unfortunately, you know, we have to protect ourselves in case anyone says, but this was wrong. But the benefit is so much greater than the risk. And that's what gave us the reassurance to kind of carry on. And women are, you know, women are extremely aware of this. You know, they're not going to make big decisions based, but at least they have an awareness of what decision options they have. Yeah. Yeah. What question maybe do I need to ask on this then in case this is the wrong route? And yeah,
Speaker #1
I mean, that's already such an enormous gap that you are filling, like making sure they know the options and, you know, they have the tools to really identify what looks okay from what looks a little dodgy. So yeah, that's exactly what... Some platforms are trying to do. And I mean, that's probably one of the concerns that I have with the one-stop shops that wouldn't like in the way they are designed and the aim they are for, since they are a kind of institutional tools, they have to deliver only like 100% checked out options. So maybe they will miss on the informal brainstorming, checking the options approach because...
Speaker #0
they just can't do this right it's hard the mass rollout of retrofit is really really difficult as we know from the schemes of the past that haven't lasted or you know we know from quality assurance risks over the last few years what's gone wrong and i think that's what we also want to be as a warning space because we don't you know it's a real shame at the moment that there is this negative perception on so many aspects of retrofit, whether it's technology or the fabric measure errors going wrong through Eco4. You know, that's why, again, trust has got to be a really important infrastructure thought process in all of this. You know, we don't want to leave thousands of households, again, in a position where there's no consistency. And that's the thing, how do you mass rollout and still give people the tools to make thousands of unique positions and decisions on their own property is really important and you know I don't have honestly the answer on what would be the ideal end result I mean that's a very simplistic question does everyone need to be passive house do we just need to get heat pumps in to every single home and I'm certainly not in the position to know the answer to that But if I can see an opportunity to fix something you said, Maya, in a blind spot in this, that it's got to be human-centered. And we mustn't underestimate the innovation in human-centered approaches is a thing. It is actually a thing. A lot of people will argue, but your communities. A community is not a product. It's not a business. I would argue the complete opposite at the moment with the world we're in.
Speaker #1
Yeah, because you learn from your peers, right?
Speaker #0
Yes. And it's extremely important and impactful and tangible. You know, we just have to look like organizations like Mumsnet several decades ago. And power developed to swing, you know, voting.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Not a bad thing at a time like this. So. You never know. You never know when the next really innovative, human-centered solution is going to come up. We have to be open to that.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's really important, like the power of the community. I mean, we are reaching the end of this podcast. It's been so interesting and so informative. I'm really so excited that it's released on the week of the Sustainable International Women's Day. Yeah. One last question for you. If institutions, I mean, policy, policymakers, markets really took the time to assess the lessons from her own space seriously, What would... they need to rethink about how retrofit or renovation is designed and supported.
Speaker #0
I think one of the most understood elements that we need to thread through is how humans interact with retrofit. This is not consumer research. We have to be very, very careful. Working several years ago, for example, with M&S and Rose at the time, they stopped doing customer research because of one really key finding and they were the biggest at it. Just for a period, they said, we've got people coming in who are really conscious about the climate, but they still want a parking space. I mean, we've got people who are coming in really concerned about their food and health, but they still want to buy a cream puff, you know, as they walk out the shop. We've got to be really careful. not to do too much consumer pigeonholing and actually understand that humans have the ability to have their minds changed, to understand things better. If well-designed innovation factors in their journey, their needs as individuals, we need to have a human-centered approach. I don't think people understand exactly what that is. I think we need to look at lots of other areas. We need to look at design. We need to look at the design industry, something I worked with. We need to look at design effectiveness more. We need to think about how to break things down. We need to look at neuroscience. I think there's loads of really interesting areas that other industries have used and utilised very powerfully that we may be missing as an industry. Because at the moment, solutions for retrofit become... empowered based on funding models that are designed to support innovation on things that are static in the sense that here's a product here's a solution this is how it'll work this is why it'll work and this is the impact it will have but what we don't allow for in that process is innovation that's agile that evolves that's experimental what if you you know you have a community innovation. And that's the lovely thing about working with her own space and not relying on funding. We don't have to look the same. We can evolve all the time. We can create content that changes. We can see a gap. We can see an opportunity. And that agility in businesses' technology isn't encouraged, supported or allowed in many senses. And then we're missing a trick because things become outdated. If they don't work, there's no model to shift that. It's a very interesting thought that I think we need to make sure is embedded in any innovation that gets funded and any solutions that get funded is that we allow a little bit of change and shift if they're not working to evolve them, improve them. Or a lot can be invested, a lot of time and money into things that don't work very, very quickly.
Speaker #1
That's, yeah, that's so interesting. And I guess that it's also not only about the, like the, in this case of renovation, not only about the home, but also about the neighborhood, the way people approach their community, like a physical community and so on. So that makes so much sense. And there is also this kind of appetite for beauty, appetite for connection, human connection, that is, must be front and center. And that's... I mean, that's really nice to have someone who has done all of this, put these aspects into perspective. Because, you know, I've been working on the New European House Initiative for many years. And that's exactly the kind of concept we try to approach, but sometimes from more of a policy or technical perspective. But now you say, yeah, we need the community to make it happen. And that's at the end of the day, it's a like the renovating, retrofitting your... own space, your home. It's a human adventure. So let's put the human really front and center. Thank you so much, Laura. I learned so much from Marine.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #1
Energetic explores the people, policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. I am Marine Cornelis. If you found this conversation valuable, you can share it with colleagues working on housing, governance, and consumer protection. You will find references and further reading in the show notes. Until next time.

Chapters

Introduction to Retrofit and Community Support
0sec
Women as Key Decision Makers in Renovation
1min
The Role of Trust in Home Renovation Projects
2min
Navigating Complexities of Retrofit: A Woman's Perspective
3min
Community Learning and Peer Support in Retrofit
4min
Health and Environmental Considerations in Home Renovation
5min
The Future of Retrofit: A Human-Centered Approach
6min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

Introduction to Retrofit and Community Support

0sec

Women as Key Decision Makers in Renovation

1min

The Role of Trust in Home Renovation Projects

2min

Navigating Complexities of Retrofit: A Woman's Perspective

3min

Community Learning and Peer Support in Retrofit

4min

Health and Environmental Considerations in Home Renovation

5min

The Future of Retrofit: A Human-Centered Approach

6min

Chapters

Introduction to Retrofit and Community Support

0sec

Women as Key Decision Makers in Renovation

1min

The Role of Trust in Home Renovation Projects

2min

Navigating Complexities of Retrofit: A Woman's Perspective

3min

Community Learning and Peer Support in Retrofit

4min

Health and Environmental Considerations in Home Renovation

5min

The Future of Retrofit: A Human-Centered Approach

6min