Fixing Europe's Energy System (Still Working on His Own House) | Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Description

Adrian Hiel set himself a goal in 2015: to fully electrify his own life. Ten years, a cargo bike, a fully insulated house he couldn't afford to put a heat pump in, and a 50,000-euro loan later — he's nearly there. He is also the first Director the Electrification Alliance has ever appointed, leading a coalition of ten European industry and advocacy organisations pushing for 35% electrification of final energy use by 2030.

The contradiction is instructive. Because it maps the exact terrain he's navigating professionally.

In this episode, we take stock of where the electrification agenda stands as a governance challenge. The technical and economic case is settled. What remains is the institutional question: does European policy have the architecture to act on it?

We cover the EU tax structure that still prices electricity like a pollutant — four times more than gas in Belgium — because it was written when coal fired the grid. The Electrification Action Plan, now expected in June 2026, and what it must actually deliver beyond restatement of agreed targets. The Electrification Staircase framework, co-authored with Michael Liebreich and others, and what it implies about sequencing and governance. Rural households as the overlooked opportunity. And why, in Adrian's words, this has become a social transition as much as a technical one — requiring reassurance as much as regulation.

Adrian also addresses the geopolitical reframe directly: the shift from climate argument to sovereignty argument, and why the US's transformation from energy importer to energy exporter has permanently changed the strategic calculus for Europe.

The Electrification Alliance: electrification-alliance.eu Electrification Staircase: watts-next.eu

Marine Cornelis is the founder of Next Energy Consumer, a policy consultancy working on energy poverty, consumer rights, and housing at EU level. If you are working on a related mandate or research question, you can reach her at contact@nextenergyconsumer.eu

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

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Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Here in Belgium, we tax electricity four times more than we tax gas. We tax it like it's cigarettes or alcohol because 30 years ago, it was like cigarettes or alcohol. It was coal fired. It was really dirty. And we haven't updated that tax structure in 30 years, which is madness. I mean, we've baked combustion into, as a society, we've baked it into just about every type of tax policy, land use policy. Foreign affairs policy that we have has all been about facilitating combustion. And it's going to take time to unpick all of those things. But they are all changeable. They were decisions made at a time when those decisions made sense. We need politicians at local level, regional level, national level, and at the EU to realize, okay, now the situation has changed. We need our people to be able to switch to electricity. And we have to do it. everything we can to make that possible.
Speaker #1
Europe has spent years building the technical and economic case for electrification. The argument is no longer contested in most policy circles. Clean electricity deployed across transport buildings and industry is the most efficient and energy secure pathway to decarbonization. The electrification action plan expected from the Commission in May 2026. represents a formal acknowledgement of that case at the highest level. And yet the alliance that has been pushing for that case for nearly a decade still finds itself defending agreed targets against proposals to reopen them. Still arguing that the 2035 zero emission vehicle mandate should be honoured. Still calling in a letter to heads of states in March 2026 for regulatory certainty as a precondition for investment. Adrian Hill is the first director of the Electrification Alliance the first the Electrification Alliance has appointed in its history he came to Brussels from journalism and public affairs and he has spent the past decade watching the energy transition from inside organizations focused on local and European system change he describes himself consistently as a storyteller with very nice t-shirts Yes. But the story he is now responsible for is less about innovation than about institutional will. Does European governance have the architecture to convert political declarations on electrification into durable market conditions? So in this episode, we take stock of where the electrification agenda stands, not as a technical roadmap, but as a governance challenge. and we trace the distance between a compelling strategic argument and a system actually organized to act on it. Adrian, welcome to the show.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for having me, Maureen. I've been a big fan of the show for many, many years now, so I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Adrian. So, Adrian, you trained as a journalist, and you've described yourself throughout your career as a storyteller. But before we get to the Electrification Alliance... I want to understand the arc. What did journalism give you that you couldn't have got from your career that started in energy policy directly? Do you see yourself differently? Do you see something differently because of that formation?
Speaker #0
Genuinely, yes. Because with journalism, the main challenge is always to present complex things in as simple a way as possible and as clear a way as possible. And that's a skill that is really lacking in public affairs where many people prefer to do the opposite and make things seem as complicated as possible and very important. Whereas I think the simpler you can make it and the simpler that you can have, the more you can help people understand what it is you're trying to say, why it's important, the more likely they are to get on board with you.
Speaker #1
I totally, totally, totally second that. And I feel that, you know, sometimes we tend to, I mean, People in our, let's say, policy circle tend to perhaps overestimate the people they have in front of them. Whereas everybody is extremely busy and you can't be on top of the game for everything. So if you make an effort in communicating things right, maybe you gain, you build some form of trust from the person you're talking to. And at the end of the day, that may deliver better results, right? So, yeah, I totally, totally, totally second you.
Speaker #0
No, honestly, I would just add, it's also a matter of respect. When you're going in to talk to someone, whether it's a podcast here or a meeting with an MEP or a commission official, you have to put in the time and effort to figure out what they know. Where are they in their learning curve? And then adjust accordingly. Because otherwise, yeah, you're just wasting their time either telling them stuff they already know or doing it in such a complex way that you're not helping them. You have to put in that time and effort.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right. And about that, you also decided a few years ago to make a step back and try to tell the story of your own personal goal, which is to fully electrify your own life. So from heat pumps, solar, electric transport, you've been extremely public about the fact that the journey has taken longer than expected. It hasn't always been smooth. It's not over. And you've been sharing this story without synthesizing it, right? What, where, what are the actual friction points? What do you, what they tell you about the barriers that LEC claims to be solving, but isn't, right?
Speaker #0
Yep. Yep. I think, so, so back, yeah, back in 2015, right? It was coming out of the Paris agreements, that zero, or, you know, keeping, keeping global warming to within 100. 1.5 degrees. And I thought, well, the best thing I can do is to electrify my life, like take out all the direct combustion of fossil fuels in my life. That was the goal. And I gave myself 10 years to do it. So we're at 10 years and what, three and a half months now. So I've just missed the, missed my self-imposed deadline. But over that period, there was a lot of sort of two steps forward and one step back, right? I had a, I had an EV at one point. Now I have an electric cargo bike. I fully insulated a house, but I ended up spending so much on insulation that I couldn't afford the heat pump. Now, here in September, I bought a house here in Brussels. And so I've been doing it step by step, putting in the heat pump, getting the solar panels. And actually, what's really heartening is it's so much easier than it was 10 years ago when I started. I cannot underline that enough. When I set myself this target 10 years ago, it seemed incredibly daunting. Where would you even find someone in Belgium to install a heat pump? There was no one to do it. There were no, I mean, aside from the Nissan Leaf, maybe the Renault Zoe, there were no electric cars that were even available. So we're in a completely different place now, where it is absolutely feasible and doable if you know what you're doing. If you're an accountant or a dentist or whatever, like, yeah, your life is busy. You've got other priorities and things you're an expert on. So while it's totally doable, it can still seem daunting. What I really want to do is just demystify the process for people. Say, yeah, all this stuff is doable. None of the challenges are insurmountable. There are things we need to do better. We need to make this process as easy as possible. But that's all well within the realm of the possible. And we can do that.
Speaker #1
I mean, you said 10 years, but if you move, if you switch house in the middle, it's about starting over, right? So, yeah, you should give yourself some grace, perhaps. But yeah, no, I totally agree with you on the fact that it can be daunting, but there are steps that can be made. And you've been describing the energy transition as the most exciting story of the next decade. So. and during your process of electrification, right? So you still find it exciting. But let's say that excitement is quite a particular register, right? Because a lot of the people this podcast talks to, talks about, are, let's say, fuel-poor, energy-poor households, renters, people in energy-inefficient social housing, etc. They may not... experience really the excitement of the story, right? For them, it might sound a bit daunting, and maybe they don't even have any kind of leverage. I mean, in the previous episode, we listened to Ashley from Windfall Energy, who was talking about the battery that was really easy to plug in. But I mean, there is potential, but it can be very expensive, right? So when you say exciting, whose story are you telling?
Speaker #0
It's a really good point because my experience is not universally applicable. I'm very clearly a middle class, you know, that was an unfortunate slip of the tongue, a middle class, you know, fortunate person. I have to acknowledge my own privilege. There's no question. And what I often say is the easier we make it for the privileged class, the middle class to do these things, the more we can focus government resources Thank you. on helping the underprivileged, the people in social housing, the people who live in drafty homes. They will always need support, and we have to do what we can to make it available to them. And one of the ways of doing that is making the return on investment from people like me to do it as good as possible and as quickly as possible. So I completely understand, in fact, if they're not only not excited but feeling somewhat resentful, that I can borrow quite a lot of money. I'm borrowing €50,000 to do all the work. It's cost neutral. Every month that I pay off that loan, I will have saved more than that from the works I've done. They can't. If you're in energy poverty, that's simply not an option for them. So I would understand if they're feeling quite resentful about the fact that I can do this and they can't.
Speaker #1
So what is the solution that you proposed? I think,
Speaker #0
yeah, very quick. Well, I mean, part of it is acknowledging the fact that if we do things like get energy taxation, right, if we maintain car standards, if we get things like greening corporate fleets, that in a few years, there's more and more secondhand EVs. As we do that, it becomes easier and easier for people in my position to make this. There are benefits for households, right? As we electrify, we can bring down the costs of electricity. That will make it more effective. But at the same time, listen, there needs to be direct government support to help these people so they don't get that fine. There's no care about that.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. I think that's... a world of discourses about making electricity electrified like or let's say all the products that are better for the environment and better for the people so the sustainable products like the no-brainer so and in a way most of these products are on the market the thing is they are still let's say legacy components in the policy in the regulation that still make a lot of thing is difficult, right? The other day, I was assessing my electricity bill, my own electricity bill. And I saw that 10% of what I consume is like extra charge. So it corresponds to about 1.54 euros or something really, really small. But my bill is inflated by 10% to cover network losses. And I'm like, I'm someone who makes effort, who has solar panels. Depending on the months and depending on how busy the house is and how many washing machines I need to run, I save between 10 and 25% of my energy consumption. But if the supplier, authorized by the regulation, charges me 10% more when I do make efforts, that kind of neutralizes my solar panels, the impact of my solar panels. So there are this kind of legacy system that... The policymakers need to kind of figure out in order for the renewables, like sustainable investments to be the smart choice, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's frustrating, but I'll tell you what, it's everywhere. Maybe not that specific example, but here in Belgium, we tax electricity four times more than we tax gas. We catch it like it's cigarettes or alcohol because 30 years ago. It was like cigarettes or alcohol. It was coal-fired. It was really dirty. And we haven't updated that tax structure in 30 years, which is madness. So, yeah, I mean, we've baked combustion into, as a society, we've baked it into just about every type of tax policy, land use policy, foreign affairs policy that we have has all been about facilitating combustion. And it's going to take time to unpick all of those things. But they are all changeable. They were decisions made at a time when those decisions made sense. We need politicians at local level, regional level, national level, and at the EU to realize, okay, now the situation has changed. We need our people to be able to switch to electricity. And we have to do everything we can to make that possible.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's exactly what the Electrification Alliance is. And I mean, we're living in a very... particular political moment. We are, I mean, we don't know if we are out of the second energy crisis in next five years. Only time will say it. And I mean, you're the first director of the Electrification Alliance. Still, this correlation is about a decade old. So what gap was needed to be filled so that the Alliance decided to appoint someone to kind of bolster the electrification process and policy discussion.
Speaker #0
I think it was a combination of a few different things as to the timing. But I can tell you that the overall need... there is to combine the benefits of all the different technologies, right? Like demand response and dynamic tariffs is great, and you can save some money. Solar panels are great, and you can save some money. EVs are great, and you can save some money. But when you combine all of those, all of a sudden, it's a really transformational opportunity. And there wasn't anyone in the membership of the electrification alliance. We have 10 different members, solar power, wind, and your electric. They all have their own vantage points, but there is no one saying, actually, when we pick out these solutions for these people, that's where the potential gets incredibly exciting. And that's what we need to do now. I'll give you an example. Rural households, especially right now during the energy crisis with its focus on oil. So in Ireland, 25% of rural households use heating oil. Right, so there... costs are going through the roof. They also tend to spend twice as much on transport because they have to drive everywhere and they drive longer distance than that diesel. And the diesel's gone through the roof. The roofs are ideal for solar panels and the houses are easier to retrofit with heat pumps because right now they're paying even more than pipeline gas, right? They're distribution network gas. If you put together a package for rural homes, who have, in general, 9% higher rates of energy poverty, you can transform their lives. Absolutely. With that. And in doing that, you also make it easier to do things like build new infrastructure for electrification. If you need a north-south connector in Germany, for example, because people then also see the benefits, they feel the benefits of electrification in their own lives.
Speaker #1
Right?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It's really that combination.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and that's very much also one of the pushes of the alliance, right? Because there is this electrification action plan that should come out in May 2026, so in a month from now. And you've been publishing some detailed recommendation and you've been putting a lot of emphasis on this importance of having rural households, etc., which is also... something that was very clear from the citizens energy package that was released in march 2026 so what i feel that what i what you seem to argue is like let's make things coherent so that they trickle down to everyday people especially in the places where they have tended they tend not to receive the same information the same quality of information the same uh level of protection and They don't seem really empowered really by the transition, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think the electrification action plan is actually going to come out in June, is what I learned this week, by the way. Yeah, I think the Commission is quite busy with their response to the ongoing crisis. And so I think it's been pushed back a few weeks just for workload reasons. So still, I mean, it's welcome. Whether it comes in May or June, that's great. Honestly, our biggest ask for that electrification action plan, is to implement all the stuff we've already agreed. We have most of the legislation at EU level. But if people don't have a smart meter in their home, because the rollout has been really slow and they don't have access to dynamic tariffs, then you can't do smart charging. You can't run your heat pump efficiently. There's really fundamental stuff that we've already agreed in the Renewable Energy Directive and in the Clean Energy for All package from 2019. Getting that stuff implemented. on the ground so people actually feel it in national legislation is more important than coming up with brand new things at eu level because those will inevitably take time to trickle down right that's the democratic process it takes time our number one thing is just let's let's implement the stuff we already agreed and that includes then as well stuff like you know car emission standards the reason we have a load of electric cars that costs €25,000 now, is because of EU emission standards. They work. And now the car lobby is again trying to water it down, which is mind-bogglingly ridiculous when people are paying €2.40 or whatever it is for a litre of diesel. So we need to stick to our guns on that. We need to stick to our guns on ETS2. We need that social climate fund to help people actually make these investments, right? That's massively important. That's the main thing. There's going to be other stuff in there that we'd like to see, like areas for industrial electrification. If you've got a cluster of a bunch of industries in one place, don't go through 10 different permitting processes. Lump them all together, build one big grid extension, do all the permitting at the same time so that they can go faster. That's one clear thing that could really, really help.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and something that I think is interesting and that the current crisis has put into perspective, that it's not only a question of climate, it's also a question about sovereignty, about being less dependent on the hectic behavior of certain business partners. Very right. Yeah, try to. And yes, on really importation of really... like unreliable sources of energy, right? So it's been about reducing the fossil fuel import bill, about cutting dependence, of course. There is also sometimes a lot of hostility from certain partners when we decide to gain our independence as a continent. So why do you think this kind of... I'm asking you as a storyteller, what do you think the impact of this kind of... Strategic reframing, tactical adaptation, do you think it has more chance to be accepted in the long term than climate? Because we know that certain groups, certain trends tend to overlook the climate risk and really see only say that, you know, the investments that we make for renewable energies are going to be expensive, right? So do you think that arguing... for cutting dependence and strategic autonomy and this kind of thing, which would be more salient than the emission case?
Speaker #0
I would say that they're going to appeal to different groups. How salient it remains is going to depend on how present the threat is. If there are parts of Europe that are threatened with annexation and invasion, it's going to stay really, really relevant for a lot of people. Certainly, I'm not going to forget that threat. Other people might have shorter memories. We forgot the 2022 gas crisis a lot faster than I thought we would. It sunk out of our collective memory pretty quickly. But now we're talking existential threats. And the idea, I don't think we can ever go back to the idea that the US is going to be a reliable energy provider. Right. And fundamentally, the U.S. has changed, whereas and this was in a report from from Ember yesterday that they made this point that I hadn't considered it. But it's absolutely true. Up until 2009, the U.S. was a massive energy importer. It was in their best interest to ensure the global flow in fossil fuels because they needed them. The U.S. is now the biggest exporter when there is market disruption. elsewhere in the world they stand to profit yeah rather than having a vested interest in ensuring the flow that's a fundamental shift in their motivations yep yeah and that's that's not going to change so i would hope that our political leaders at the very least realize that the the global supply that we depended on for the last several decades has had irrevocably changed that doesn't regardless of what the public perception is that motivation doesn't change anymore.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I've been making the same observation and I've been wondering when we will start using the term oligarch to explain what's going on in the US as well, right? Because we knew that from Russia and the way it was working, but maybe now it's also time to apply it to the US as well. Anyway, moving on a little bit to this geopolitical discourse that is, of course, bigger than any of us and where we would need more cohesion and less division. Something that is fundamentally interesting in this, let's say, current crisis is that we have so many more tools, just like the one we talked about in the previous episode, like batteries, but also balcony solar and smaller, more mobile tools, right? you So how would the impact be in your view? And is it something you think you will work on actively defending as the Electrification Alliance in the years to come?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. A, this is a very different energy crisis than 2022, right? That's one thing. In this energy crisis, electricity is largely unaffected. It is a safe haven, right? Yeah. Explicitly a safe haven in the Nordics and Iberia and France, but even in countries like Belgium. We only get 16% of our electricity from gas in Belgium. So all of a sudden, if I've got a small battery and a dynamic tariff and I can shift a bit of demand, my entire electricity supply is gas-free, essentially. I'm completely unaffected because of the technology of smart meters and a small battery. I bought mine at Ikea. This is mainstream market stuff, right? And that option wasn't there in 2022 with the gas prices, that I could change, I can make a small investment, change my behavior a little bit, and all of a sudden I've cut out gas from my electricity supply. Regardless of how it's done at national level, I have that control. So that's a huge, huge change. And that's something that I think hasn't sunk in with political leaders. Certainly if you saw what... Germany proposed this week 2 billion to support drivers. Talking with an MEP last night, she told me that that's going to save drivers 10 euro a month. It's not a very good return on investment for 2 billion euro. You'd be far better off rolling out smart meters and helping people shift their demand and giving them a small battery. And it's available to people in apartments. people who rent, right? These are groups that previously we could not help aside from sending them a check. That was the only way we could help them. Now we can give them the tools to change their energy consumption in line with European energy that's cheap and abundant and clean. And that's a massive, massive shift.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very, very interesting one. A few weeks ago, I thought about, you know, And... The fable of the hare and the turtle, and that the electrification was very much like a turtle and that, you know, it goes steady, whereas fossils and like this kind of legacy mindset were very much like the hare, and they still think of just sending a check when we need to be a little bit more like the turtle and be a little bit more steady in the choices that we make. But anyway, talking about metaphors, you set up one called the electrification staircase. you Yeah, so it's a kind of a framework for prioritizing electrification by impact, where it delivers most now and next. So can you tell us a little bit more about the staircase and what does it imply in terms also in terms of governance, in terms of sequencing, in terms of prioritization?
Speaker #0
Sure, sure. So, yeah, it was it's not not just me. It was Michael Liebreich, Dr. Sylvia Medetti from Schneider Electric, Tom Butler from the Regulatory Assistance Project and William Drake from Liebreich Associates. The five of us collaborated on this, and it's an attempt to show industry leaders when their industry is going to electrify so that they can start preparing now. It's an attempt to show political leaders this is the progression that needs to that will happen and needs to be done. so that they can do that in the most efficient way possible and adjust legislation. And it's also fundamentally a message that electrification is inevitable in a bunch of different industrial sectors. It is going to happen. And we've tried to put timelines on it, but it's a global look. So there will be areas that are faster and areas that are slower. But it's absolutely inevitable because it's fundamentally cheaper and more efficient. But we all have a role to play in making and achieving that as quickly as possible. So the biggest nuance that needs to be made with the electrification staircase is the first steps, the easiest steps, the things like domestic hot water and heating and electric vehicles and low temperature industrial processes like brewing, like food processes, textiles. Those come first. A, because they're the easiest. That's obviously true. But B, because they tend to be flexible. And that's really, really key. Because that flexibility, it increases the amount of electricity demand, which is in turn met with renewables. Overwhelmingly renewables. We don't really need to talk about where the power is going to come from anywhere. They're just too much cheaper. But fundamentally, they don't increase the peak. And that means that the overall price comes down. And that is really, really fundamental for later on when you're trying to do more energy intensive industries that don't have flexibility. They need to run 24-7. They need to run at high temperatures. They need consistent low electricity to be able to do that. And the only way you do that, well, not the only way, but the biggest thing will be getting the flexibility in the system from the domestic heating, from the electric cars and from the low temperature process heating.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's very interesting to see that there are ways to make it happen. And so, again, the policymakers haven't necessarily catch up on everything. And, you know, earlier you were mentioning Germany and the kind of vouchers, but I've seen that in Italy as well. Like the Italian government is also going in directions that honestly don't make any sense to me. And you also have the industry, on the other hand, to say we are ready for flexibility. We are ready to invest. Just give us the framework. Let's go. you I'm very, very frustrated by the fact that the governments are not catching up fast enough and that there is still so much left to do when everything could be ready already.
Speaker #0
I would just say, I understand the desire from politicians to help people, right? And this subsidizing prices at the fuel pump seems like a logical thing to do, right? But the fact is, in a shortage, it doesn't help. And B, if you want to help households or businesses, do it in a way that doesn't impact the long-term trajectory. So cut VAT on electricity bills. If a driver is paying an extra 200 euro a month to get around, well, save him some money on his electricity bills. It doesn't have to come at the pump. We can help those families while also helping make sure that the long-term solution is actually put into place. But I think in some... countries, notably the two we just talked about, there is an ideological preference there that is inexplicable in the world of physics or economics.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's this kind of culture war. And one of my theories about that is that some countries tend or certain policy trends tend to like centralized, visualized, visible... actions and that would require you know a big power plant burning fuels and so on as a way you know to to kind of demonstrate or showcase leadership so this kind of ramble behavior right sure it is very very much exactly exactly but the fact that you put the term macho on it is i mean i had this conversation last year with some african researchers who told me exactly that that that the decentralized small installation was sometimes felt as feminine, whereas the massive power plant investment and this kind of things are being seen as the masculine one. And in this kind of legacy metro thinking, well, you should never push too much for the embracing the feminine side. So, I mean, that is like, for me, it's very, very, very, it's way too much as a way of thinking. Why would you engage in a cultural war over something that is better for the people and better for the planet? But it seems to be that it's the world we are living in. And yeah, let's go back to your renovation journey, Adrian.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so you've been very public about it, the heat pump, the solar, the friction, and you've also mentioned I'm wanting the electrification action plan to include some specific focus on real electrification. Although before you worked for Citi, so you have like, there is something you really want to address this side of your career, right? So I want to connect two things. So what does your personal experience tell you, told you about what the EU support architecture is still getting wrong for ordinary households? Notch early adopters with the resources to navigate it.
Speaker #0
You know, the biggest thing has been that a lot of people just want reassurance. So since this series of videos has come out, I've had a number of people reach out, ask questions, ask for help. I've gone over to their homes and they generally know what to do. They know what they want. They just want someone to tell them that it's the right thing, that they're not paying too much. That it's going to be feasible. They're taking a leap of faith.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And they want someone to tell them that it's going to be fine. Yeah. So to that end, honestly, if you look back at the energy performance of building standards and the one-stop shops within there. That, to me, is a really underplayed asset that I hope countries really accelerate. Those one-stop shops will be independent hubs for information for people to go to and say, what do I need to do? Where do I need to start? Because it's not that difficult. No one's doing plumbing or electrical work themselves. utterly feasible but we have to give people the reassurance and the confidence to do that and that will come with time as it becomes the normal thing right people in finland and sweden don't feel the same way about getting a heat pump because 60 of the houses have heat pumps it's just normal yeah here in belgium in italy it's not normal no and so there's you know there's trepidation uh going from you know the known and trusted gas boiler it won't let you down to something new and different. And that's the single biggest thing, is that we've got the technological solutions, we've got the economic solutions, this is now a social transition as much as anything else. And we need social scientists to help us with it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I totally second that. And if you're interested in the topic of building trust around the contractors and the process, etc., a few episodes ago, we had Elora Koop from... her own space who creates some kind of online community for women to help each other. I suppose it's open to everyone, but it's a very, very interesting angle because very often it's the decision maker in the home will be the woman or it's a family decision. And maybe she will spend more time trying to look for information, but she will be overlooked and the information may not be designed to her needs. It's really interesting that this kind of movement is starting to appear to fill this gap that maybe an institutional one-stop shop wouldn't manage to cover. Yep,
Speaker #0
that's really interesting.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so I will refer to this episode in the show notes, but it's just a very good one and it's only a few episodes ago, so please catch up with it. Let's close then, because, yeah, we've been talking so much, it's been super interesting. So. I would like you to look back across your first year in this role. So what has surprised you most, maybe about resistance or about momentum? I mean, it's been quite a ride already. Less than a year, it's been quite a ride already, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's been a massive ride. One of the early surprises was just how much positive reaction there is to this. Coming from, you know, a lot of energy work was around climate and it was about... doing less, stopping doing things, all of a sudden this is a positive case. This is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to bring. This is what's new. This is what's exciting. That shift is really, really interesting. And then the other shift, honestly, was this week. Ursula von der Leyen calling for ambitious electrification targets that she's going to deliver in the next couple of months. That's massive. That provides a level of certainty that I have. that I haven't questioned, but that a lot of other people haven't had. And providing that certainty, we are going to electrify. We're going to have half of our economy electrified by 2040. I assume that's going to be the target. I hope it is. That provides a whole lot of certainty for a lot of other players to say, okay, this is going to happen. It's going to happen in the next 15 years. What do we need to do to make it happen? That shift is massive. It's very, very important. So I'm over the moon right now. We've got all the momentum. going for us. We really just need to go as fast as possible.
Speaker #1
That's very, very good and inspirational words to end up this podcast with. So thank you so much, Adrian. Super insightful, as always. Yeah, listeners and viewers, just connect with Adrian on LinkedIn. He shares everything about his renovation journey. So it's quite fun. And I must say, I've already shared it with a few friends who were in this process and found it really interesting. Also regarding the energy performance certificate and this kind of thing. So, yeah, I think that was definitely necessary to have this kind of really fresh insights of what's really happening. And yeah, and bring it back to policymakers.
Speaker #0
That's wonderful to hear, Marie. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great pleasure.
Speaker #1
Energetic explores the people, policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. I am Marine Cornelis. If you found this conversation valuable, you can share it with colleagues working on housing, governance and consumer protection. You will find references and further reading in the show notes. Until next time.
Speaker #2
I need you close, I need you here. I need you close, I need you here. And I gotta... I'm saving your attention.

Chapters

Introduction to Electrification and Tax Structure
0sec
The Role of the Electrification Alliance
1min
Adrian Hill's Personal Electrification Journey
2min
Challenges in Energy Transition and Communication
3min
Governance and Policy Implementation for Electrification
4min
Addressing Energy Poverty and Rural Electrification
5min
Conclusion and Future of Electrification in Europe
6min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energy transitions are failing not because of technology, but because of governance. Who bears the cost of getting it wrong. Who is excluded from the benefits. Who holds the institutions accountable.

Energ'Ethic is a podcast about those questions. Hosted by Marine Cornelis — founder of Next Energy Consumer and a leading voice on energy poverty, consumer rights, and the social conditions of the energy transition — each episode brings together the people who are closest to where policy meets reality: regulators navigating enforcement gaps, researchers with evidence that hasn't reached the policy room yet, practitioners managing the friction between EU ambition and local capacity.

The conversations are rigorous and grounded. The guests are people with direct institutional knowledge and genuine stakes in getting this right.

Energ'Ethic is listened to by policymakers, legal and regulatory professionals, NGO and civil society leaders, and researchers working at the intersection of energy, housing, consumers, and governance. It is not a generalist show about the energy transition. It is a specialist conversation for people who are already inside the problem.

For organisations and sponsors: Energ'Ethic offers partnership opportunities for organisations seeking to reach a senior, policy-literate audience. Partnerships are selective and editorially independent. Contact: contact@nextenergyconsumer.eu

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energy transitions are failing not because of technology, but because of governance. Who bears the cost of getting it wrong. Who is excluded from the benefits. Who holds the institutions accountable.

The conversations are rigorous and grounded. The guests are people with direct institutional knowledge and genuine stakes in getting this right.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

The contradiction is instructive. Because it maps the exact terrain he's navigating professionally.

The Electrification Alliance: electrification-alliance.eu Electrification Staircase: watts-next.eu

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

Keep up to date with new episodes straight from your inbox

Reach out to Marine Cornelis via BlueSky or LinkedIn
Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

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Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Here in Belgium, we tax electricity four times more than we tax gas. We tax it like it's cigarettes or alcohol because 30 years ago, it was like cigarettes or alcohol. It was coal fired. It was really dirty. And we haven't updated that tax structure in 30 years, which is madness. I mean, we've baked combustion into, as a society, we've baked it into just about every type of tax policy, land use policy. Foreign affairs policy that we have has all been about facilitating combustion. And it's going to take time to unpick all of those things. But they are all changeable. They were decisions made at a time when those decisions made sense. We need politicians at local level, regional level, national level, and at the EU to realize, okay, now the situation has changed. We need our people to be able to switch to electricity. And we have to do it. everything we can to make that possible.
Speaker #1
Europe has spent years building the technical and economic case for electrification. The argument is no longer contested in most policy circles. Clean electricity deployed across transport buildings and industry is the most efficient and energy secure pathway to decarbonization. The electrification action plan expected from the Commission in May 2026. represents a formal acknowledgement of that case at the highest level. And yet the alliance that has been pushing for that case for nearly a decade still finds itself defending agreed targets against proposals to reopen them. Still arguing that the 2035 zero emission vehicle mandate should be honoured. Still calling in a letter to heads of states in March 2026 for regulatory certainty as a precondition for investment. Adrian Hill is the first director of the Electrification Alliance the first the Electrification Alliance has appointed in its history he came to Brussels from journalism and public affairs and he has spent the past decade watching the energy transition from inside organizations focused on local and European system change he describes himself consistently as a storyteller with very nice t-shirts Yes. But the story he is now responsible for is less about innovation than about institutional will. Does European governance have the architecture to convert political declarations on electrification into durable market conditions? So in this episode, we take stock of where the electrification agenda stands, not as a technical roadmap, but as a governance challenge. and we trace the distance between a compelling strategic argument and a system actually organized to act on it. Adrian, welcome to the show.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for having me, Maureen. I've been a big fan of the show for many, many years now, so I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Adrian. So, Adrian, you trained as a journalist, and you've described yourself throughout your career as a storyteller. But before we get to the Electrification Alliance... I want to understand the arc. What did journalism give you that you couldn't have got from your career that started in energy policy directly? Do you see yourself differently? Do you see something differently because of that formation?
Speaker #0
Genuinely, yes. Because with journalism, the main challenge is always to present complex things in as simple a way as possible and as clear a way as possible. And that's a skill that is really lacking in public affairs where many people prefer to do the opposite and make things seem as complicated as possible and very important. Whereas I think the simpler you can make it and the simpler that you can have, the more you can help people understand what it is you're trying to say, why it's important, the more likely they are to get on board with you.
Speaker #1
I totally, totally, totally second that. And I feel that, you know, sometimes we tend to, I mean, People in our, let's say, policy circle tend to perhaps overestimate the people they have in front of them. Whereas everybody is extremely busy and you can't be on top of the game for everything. So if you make an effort in communicating things right, maybe you gain, you build some form of trust from the person you're talking to. And at the end of the day, that may deliver better results, right? So, yeah, I totally, totally, totally second you.
Speaker #0
No, honestly, I would just add, it's also a matter of respect. When you're going in to talk to someone, whether it's a podcast here or a meeting with an MEP or a commission official, you have to put in the time and effort to figure out what they know. Where are they in their learning curve? And then adjust accordingly. Because otherwise, yeah, you're just wasting their time either telling them stuff they already know or doing it in such a complex way that you're not helping them. You have to put in that time and effort.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right. And about that, you also decided a few years ago to make a step back and try to tell the story of your own personal goal, which is to fully electrify your own life. So from heat pumps, solar, electric transport, you've been extremely public about the fact that the journey has taken longer than expected. It hasn't always been smooth. It's not over. And you've been sharing this story without synthesizing it, right? What, where, what are the actual friction points? What do you, what they tell you about the barriers that LEC claims to be solving, but isn't, right?
Speaker #0
Yep. Yep. I think, so, so back, yeah, back in 2015, right? It was coming out of the Paris agreements, that zero, or, you know, keeping, keeping global warming to within 100. 1.5 degrees. And I thought, well, the best thing I can do is to electrify my life, like take out all the direct combustion of fossil fuels in my life. That was the goal. And I gave myself 10 years to do it. So we're at 10 years and what, three and a half months now. So I've just missed the, missed my self-imposed deadline. But over that period, there was a lot of sort of two steps forward and one step back, right? I had a, I had an EV at one point. Now I have an electric cargo bike. I fully insulated a house, but I ended up spending so much on insulation that I couldn't afford the heat pump. Now, here in September, I bought a house here in Brussels. And so I've been doing it step by step, putting in the heat pump, getting the solar panels. And actually, what's really heartening is it's so much easier than it was 10 years ago when I started. I cannot underline that enough. When I set myself this target 10 years ago, it seemed incredibly daunting. Where would you even find someone in Belgium to install a heat pump? There was no one to do it. There were no, I mean, aside from the Nissan Leaf, maybe the Renault Zoe, there were no electric cars that were even available. So we're in a completely different place now, where it is absolutely feasible and doable if you know what you're doing. If you're an accountant or a dentist or whatever, like, yeah, your life is busy. You've got other priorities and things you're an expert on. So while it's totally doable, it can still seem daunting. What I really want to do is just demystify the process for people. Say, yeah, all this stuff is doable. None of the challenges are insurmountable. There are things we need to do better. We need to make this process as easy as possible. But that's all well within the realm of the possible. And we can do that.
Speaker #1
I mean, you said 10 years, but if you move, if you switch house in the middle, it's about starting over, right? So, yeah, you should give yourself some grace, perhaps. But yeah, no, I totally agree with you on the fact that it can be daunting, but there are steps that can be made. And you've been describing the energy transition as the most exciting story of the next decade. So. and during your process of electrification, right? So you still find it exciting. But let's say that excitement is quite a particular register, right? Because a lot of the people this podcast talks to, talks about, are, let's say, fuel-poor, energy-poor households, renters, people in energy-inefficient social housing, etc. They may not... experience really the excitement of the story, right? For them, it might sound a bit daunting, and maybe they don't even have any kind of leverage. I mean, in the previous episode, we listened to Ashley from Windfall Energy, who was talking about the battery that was really easy to plug in. But I mean, there is potential, but it can be very expensive, right? So when you say exciting, whose story are you telling?
Speaker #0
It's a really good point because my experience is not universally applicable. I'm very clearly a middle class, you know, that was an unfortunate slip of the tongue, a middle class, you know, fortunate person. I have to acknowledge my own privilege. There's no question. And what I often say is the easier we make it for the privileged class, the middle class to do these things, the more we can focus government resources Thank you. on helping the underprivileged, the people in social housing, the people who live in drafty homes. They will always need support, and we have to do what we can to make it available to them. And one of the ways of doing that is making the return on investment from people like me to do it as good as possible and as quickly as possible. So I completely understand, in fact, if they're not only not excited but feeling somewhat resentful, that I can borrow quite a lot of money. I'm borrowing €50,000 to do all the work. It's cost neutral. Every month that I pay off that loan, I will have saved more than that from the works I've done. They can't. If you're in energy poverty, that's simply not an option for them. So I would understand if they're feeling quite resentful about the fact that I can do this and they can't.
Speaker #1
So what is the solution that you proposed? I think,
Speaker #0
yeah, very quick. Well, I mean, part of it is acknowledging the fact that if we do things like get energy taxation, right, if we maintain car standards, if we get things like greening corporate fleets, that in a few years, there's more and more secondhand EVs. As we do that, it becomes easier and easier for people in my position to make this. There are benefits for households, right? As we electrify, we can bring down the costs of electricity. That will make it more effective. But at the same time, listen, there needs to be direct government support to help these people so they don't get that fine. There's no care about that.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. I think that's... a world of discourses about making electricity electrified like or let's say all the products that are better for the environment and better for the people so the sustainable products like the no-brainer so and in a way most of these products are on the market the thing is they are still let's say legacy components in the policy in the regulation that still make a lot of thing is difficult, right? The other day, I was assessing my electricity bill, my own electricity bill. And I saw that 10% of what I consume is like extra charge. So it corresponds to about 1.54 euros or something really, really small. But my bill is inflated by 10% to cover network losses. And I'm like, I'm someone who makes effort, who has solar panels. Depending on the months and depending on how busy the house is and how many washing machines I need to run, I save between 10 and 25% of my energy consumption. But if the supplier, authorized by the regulation, charges me 10% more when I do make efforts, that kind of neutralizes my solar panels, the impact of my solar panels. So there are this kind of legacy system that... The policymakers need to kind of figure out in order for the renewables, like sustainable investments to be the smart choice, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's frustrating, but I'll tell you what, it's everywhere. Maybe not that specific example, but here in Belgium, we tax electricity four times more than we tax gas. We catch it like it's cigarettes or alcohol because 30 years ago. It was like cigarettes or alcohol. It was coal-fired. It was really dirty. And we haven't updated that tax structure in 30 years, which is madness. So, yeah, I mean, we've baked combustion into, as a society, we've baked it into just about every type of tax policy, land use policy, foreign affairs policy that we have has all been about facilitating combustion. And it's going to take time to unpick all of those things. But they are all changeable. They were decisions made at a time when those decisions made sense. We need politicians at local level, regional level, national level, and at the EU to realize, okay, now the situation has changed. We need our people to be able to switch to electricity. And we have to do everything we can to make that possible.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's exactly what the Electrification Alliance is. And I mean, we're living in a very... particular political moment. We are, I mean, we don't know if we are out of the second energy crisis in next five years. Only time will say it. And I mean, you're the first director of the Electrification Alliance. Still, this correlation is about a decade old. So what gap was needed to be filled so that the Alliance decided to appoint someone to kind of bolster the electrification process and policy discussion.
Speaker #0
I think it was a combination of a few different things as to the timing. But I can tell you that the overall need... there is to combine the benefits of all the different technologies, right? Like demand response and dynamic tariffs is great, and you can save some money. Solar panels are great, and you can save some money. EVs are great, and you can save some money. But when you combine all of those, all of a sudden, it's a really transformational opportunity. And there wasn't anyone in the membership of the electrification alliance. We have 10 different members, solar power, wind, and your electric. They all have their own vantage points, but there is no one saying, actually, when we pick out these solutions for these people, that's where the potential gets incredibly exciting. And that's what we need to do now. I'll give you an example. Rural households, especially right now during the energy crisis with its focus on oil. So in Ireland, 25% of rural households use heating oil. Right, so there... costs are going through the roof. They also tend to spend twice as much on transport because they have to drive everywhere and they drive longer distance than that diesel. And the diesel's gone through the roof. The roofs are ideal for solar panels and the houses are easier to retrofit with heat pumps because right now they're paying even more than pipeline gas, right? They're distribution network gas. If you put together a package for rural homes, who have, in general, 9% higher rates of energy poverty, you can transform their lives. Absolutely. With that. And in doing that, you also make it easier to do things like build new infrastructure for electrification. If you need a north-south connector in Germany, for example, because people then also see the benefits, they feel the benefits of electrification in their own lives.
Speaker #1
Right?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It's really that combination.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and that's very much also one of the pushes of the alliance, right? Because there is this electrification action plan that should come out in May 2026, so in a month from now. And you've been publishing some detailed recommendation and you've been putting a lot of emphasis on this importance of having rural households, etc., which is also... something that was very clear from the citizens energy package that was released in march 2026 so what i feel that what i what you seem to argue is like let's make things coherent so that they trickle down to everyday people especially in the places where they have tended they tend not to receive the same information the same quality of information the same uh level of protection and They don't seem really empowered really by the transition, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think the electrification action plan is actually going to come out in June, is what I learned this week, by the way. Yeah, I think the Commission is quite busy with their response to the ongoing crisis. And so I think it's been pushed back a few weeks just for workload reasons. So still, I mean, it's welcome. Whether it comes in May or June, that's great. Honestly, our biggest ask for that electrification action plan, is to implement all the stuff we've already agreed. We have most of the legislation at EU level. But if people don't have a smart meter in their home, because the rollout has been really slow and they don't have access to dynamic tariffs, then you can't do smart charging. You can't run your heat pump efficiently. There's really fundamental stuff that we've already agreed in the Renewable Energy Directive and in the Clean Energy for All package from 2019. Getting that stuff implemented. on the ground so people actually feel it in national legislation is more important than coming up with brand new things at eu level because those will inevitably take time to trickle down right that's the democratic process it takes time our number one thing is just let's let's implement the stuff we already agreed and that includes then as well stuff like you know car emission standards the reason we have a load of electric cars that costs €25,000 now, is because of EU emission standards. They work. And now the car lobby is again trying to water it down, which is mind-bogglingly ridiculous when people are paying €2.40 or whatever it is for a litre of diesel. So we need to stick to our guns on that. We need to stick to our guns on ETS2. We need that social climate fund to help people actually make these investments, right? That's massively important. That's the main thing. There's going to be other stuff in there that we'd like to see, like areas for industrial electrification. If you've got a cluster of a bunch of industries in one place, don't go through 10 different permitting processes. Lump them all together, build one big grid extension, do all the permitting at the same time so that they can go faster. That's one clear thing that could really, really help.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and something that I think is interesting and that the current crisis has put into perspective, that it's not only a question of climate, it's also a question about sovereignty, about being less dependent on the hectic behavior of certain business partners. Very right. Yeah, try to. And yes, on really importation of really... like unreliable sources of energy, right? So it's been about reducing the fossil fuel import bill, about cutting dependence, of course. There is also sometimes a lot of hostility from certain partners when we decide to gain our independence as a continent. So why do you think this kind of... I'm asking you as a storyteller, what do you think the impact of this kind of... Strategic reframing, tactical adaptation, do you think it has more chance to be accepted in the long term than climate? Because we know that certain groups, certain trends tend to overlook the climate risk and really see only say that, you know, the investments that we make for renewable energies are going to be expensive, right? So do you think that arguing... for cutting dependence and strategic autonomy and this kind of thing, which would be more salient than the emission case?
Speaker #0
I would say that they're going to appeal to different groups. How salient it remains is going to depend on how present the threat is. If there are parts of Europe that are threatened with annexation and invasion, it's going to stay really, really relevant for a lot of people. Certainly, I'm not going to forget that threat. Other people might have shorter memories. We forgot the 2022 gas crisis a lot faster than I thought we would. It sunk out of our collective memory pretty quickly. But now we're talking existential threats. And the idea, I don't think we can ever go back to the idea that the US is going to be a reliable energy provider. Right. And fundamentally, the U.S. has changed, whereas and this was in a report from from Ember yesterday that they made this point that I hadn't considered it. But it's absolutely true. Up until 2009, the U.S. was a massive energy importer. It was in their best interest to ensure the global flow in fossil fuels because they needed them. The U.S. is now the biggest exporter when there is market disruption. elsewhere in the world they stand to profit yeah rather than having a vested interest in ensuring the flow that's a fundamental shift in their motivations yep yeah and that's that's not going to change so i would hope that our political leaders at the very least realize that the the global supply that we depended on for the last several decades has had irrevocably changed that doesn't regardless of what the public perception is that motivation doesn't change anymore.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I've been making the same observation and I've been wondering when we will start using the term oligarch to explain what's going on in the US as well, right? Because we knew that from Russia and the way it was working, but maybe now it's also time to apply it to the US as well. Anyway, moving on a little bit to this geopolitical discourse that is, of course, bigger than any of us and where we would need more cohesion and less division. Something that is fundamentally interesting in this, let's say, current crisis is that we have so many more tools, just like the one we talked about in the previous episode, like batteries, but also balcony solar and smaller, more mobile tools, right? you So how would the impact be in your view? And is it something you think you will work on actively defending as the Electrification Alliance in the years to come?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. A, this is a very different energy crisis than 2022, right? That's one thing. In this energy crisis, electricity is largely unaffected. It is a safe haven, right? Yeah. Explicitly a safe haven in the Nordics and Iberia and France, but even in countries like Belgium. We only get 16% of our electricity from gas in Belgium. So all of a sudden, if I've got a small battery and a dynamic tariff and I can shift a bit of demand, my entire electricity supply is gas-free, essentially. I'm completely unaffected because of the technology of smart meters and a small battery. I bought mine at Ikea. This is mainstream market stuff, right? And that option wasn't there in 2022 with the gas prices, that I could change, I can make a small investment, change my behavior a little bit, and all of a sudden I've cut out gas from my electricity supply. Regardless of how it's done at national level, I have that control. So that's a huge, huge change. And that's something that I think hasn't sunk in with political leaders. Certainly if you saw what... Germany proposed this week 2 billion to support drivers. Talking with an MEP last night, she told me that that's going to save drivers 10 euro a month. It's not a very good return on investment for 2 billion euro. You'd be far better off rolling out smart meters and helping people shift their demand and giving them a small battery. And it's available to people in apartments. people who rent, right? These are groups that previously we could not help aside from sending them a check. That was the only way we could help them. Now we can give them the tools to change their energy consumption in line with European energy that's cheap and abundant and clean. And that's a massive, massive shift.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very, very interesting one. A few weeks ago, I thought about, you know, And... The fable of the hare and the turtle, and that the electrification was very much like a turtle and that, you know, it goes steady, whereas fossils and like this kind of legacy mindset were very much like the hare, and they still think of just sending a check when we need to be a little bit more like the turtle and be a little bit more steady in the choices that we make. But anyway, talking about metaphors, you set up one called the electrification staircase. you Yeah, so it's a kind of a framework for prioritizing electrification by impact, where it delivers most now and next. So can you tell us a little bit more about the staircase and what does it imply in terms also in terms of governance, in terms of sequencing, in terms of prioritization?
Speaker #0
Sure, sure. So, yeah, it was it's not not just me. It was Michael Liebreich, Dr. Sylvia Medetti from Schneider Electric, Tom Butler from the Regulatory Assistance Project and William Drake from Liebreich Associates. The five of us collaborated on this, and it's an attempt to show industry leaders when their industry is going to electrify so that they can start preparing now. It's an attempt to show political leaders this is the progression that needs to that will happen and needs to be done. so that they can do that in the most efficient way possible and adjust legislation. And it's also fundamentally a message that electrification is inevitable in a bunch of different industrial sectors. It is going to happen. And we've tried to put timelines on it, but it's a global look. So there will be areas that are faster and areas that are slower. But it's absolutely inevitable because it's fundamentally cheaper and more efficient. But we all have a role to play in making and achieving that as quickly as possible. So the biggest nuance that needs to be made with the electrification staircase is the first steps, the easiest steps, the things like domestic hot water and heating and electric vehicles and low temperature industrial processes like brewing, like food processes, textiles. Those come first. A, because they're the easiest. That's obviously true. But B, because they tend to be flexible. And that's really, really key. Because that flexibility, it increases the amount of electricity demand, which is in turn met with renewables. Overwhelmingly renewables. We don't really need to talk about where the power is going to come from anywhere. They're just too much cheaper. But fundamentally, they don't increase the peak. And that means that the overall price comes down. And that is really, really fundamental for later on when you're trying to do more energy intensive industries that don't have flexibility. They need to run 24-7. They need to run at high temperatures. They need consistent low electricity to be able to do that. And the only way you do that, well, not the only way, but the biggest thing will be getting the flexibility in the system from the domestic heating, from the electric cars and from the low temperature process heating.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's very interesting to see that there are ways to make it happen. And so, again, the policymakers haven't necessarily catch up on everything. And, you know, earlier you were mentioning Germany and the kind of vouchers, but I've seen that in Italy as well. Like the Italian government is also going in directions that honestly don't make any sense to me. And you also have the industry, on the other hand, to say we are ready for flexibility. We are ready to invest. Just give us the framework. Let's go. you I'm very, very frustrated by the fact that the governments are not catching up fast enough and that there is still so much left to do when everything could be ready already.
Speaker #0
I would just say, I understand the desire from politicians to help people, right? And this subsidizing prices at the fuel pump seems like a logical thing to do, right? But the fact is, in a shortage, it doesn't help. And B, if you want to help households or businesses, do it in a way that doesn't impact the long-term trajectory. So cut VAT on electricity bills. If a driver is paying an extra 200 euro a month to get around, well, save him some money on his electricity bills. It doesn't have to come at the pump. We can help those families while also helping make sure that the long-term solution is actually put into place. But I think in some... countries, notably the two we just talked about, there is an ideological preference there that is inexplicable in the world of physics or economics.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's this kind of culture war. And one of my theories about that is that some countries tend or certain policy trends tend to like centralized, visualized, visible... actions and that would require you know a big power plant burning fuels and so on as a way you know to to kind of demonstrate or showcase leadership so this kind of ramble behavior right sure it is very very much exactly exactly but the fact that you put the term macho on it is i mean i had this conversation last year with some african researchers who told me exactly that that that the decentralized small installation was sometimes felt as feminine, whereas the massive power plant investment and this kind of things are being seen as the masculine one. And in this kind of legacy metro thinking, well, you should never push too much for the embracing the feminine side. So, I mean, that is like, for me, it's very, very, very, it's way too much as a way of thinking. Why would you engage in a cultural war over something that is better for the people and better for the planet? But it seems to be that it's the world we are living in. And yeah, let's go back to your renovation journey, Adrian.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so you've been very public about it, the heat pump, the solar, the friction, and you've also mentioned I'm wanting the electrification action plan to include some specific focus on real electrification. Although before you worked for Citi, so you have like, there is something you really want to address this side of your career, right? So I want to connect two things. So what does your personal experience tell you, told you about what the EU support architecture is still getting wrong for ordinary households? Notch early adopters with the resources to navigate it.
Speaker #0
You know, the biggest thing has been that a lot of people just want reassurance. So since this series of videos has come out, I've had a number of people reach out, ask questions, ask for help. I've gone over to their homes and they generally know what to do. They know what they want. They just want someone to tell them that it's the right thing, that they're not paying too much. That it's going to be feasible. They're taking a leap of faith.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And they want someone to tell them that it's going to be fine. Yeah. So to that end, honestly, if you look back at the energy performance of building standards and the one-stop shops within there. That, to me, is a really underplayed asset that I hope countries really accelerate. Those one-stop shops will be independent hubs for information for people to go to and say, what do I need to do? Where do I need to start? Because it's not that difficult. No one's doing plumbing or electrical work themselves. utterly feasible but we have to give people the reassurance and the confidence to do that and that will come with time as it becomes the normal thing right people in finland and sweden don't feel the same way about getting a heat pump because 60 of the houses have heat pumps it's just normal yeah here in belgium in italy it's not normal no and so there's you know there's trepidation uh going from you know the known and trusted gas boiler it won't let you down to something new and different. And that's the single biggest thing, is that we've got the technological solutions, we've got the economic solutions, this is now a social transition as much as anything else. And we need social scientists to help us with it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I totally second that. And if you're interested in the topic of building trust around the contractors and the process, etc., a few episodes ago, we had Elora Koop from... her own space who creates some kind of online community for women to help each other. I suppose it's open to everyone, but it's a very, very interesting angle because very often it's the decision maker in the home will be the woman or it's a family decision. And maybe she will spend more time trying to look for information, but she will be overlooked and the information may not be designed to her needs. It's really interesting that this kind of movement is starting to appear to fill this gap that maybe an institutional one-stop shop wouldn't manage to cover. Yep,
Speaker #0
that's really interesting.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so I will refer to this episode in the show notes, but it's just a very good one and it's only a few episodes ago, so please catch up with it. Let's close then, because, yeah, we've been talking so much, it's been super interesting. So. I would like you to look back across your first year in this role. So what has surprised you most, maybe about resistance or about momentum? I mean, it's been quite a ride already. Less than a year, it's been quite a ride already, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's been a massive ride. One of the early surprises was just how much positive reaction there is to this. Coming from, you know, a lot of energy work was around climate and it was about... doing less, stopping doing things, all of a sudden this is a positive case. This is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to bring. This is what's new. This is what's exciting. That shift is really, really interesting. And then the other shift, honestly, was this week. Ursula von der Leyen calling for ambitious electrification targets that she's going to deliver in the next couple of months. That's massive. That provides a level of certainty that I have. that I haven't questioned, but that a lot of other people haven't had. And providing that certainty, we are going to electrify. We're going to have half of our economy electrified by 2040. I assume that's going to be the target. I hope it is. That provides a whole lot of certainty for a lot of other players to say, okay, this is going to happen. It's going to happen in the next 15 years. What do we need to do to make it happen? That shift is massive. It's very, very important. So I'm over the moon right now. We've got all the momentum. going for us. We really just need to go as fast as possible.
Speaker #1
That's very, very good and inspirational words to end up this podcast with. So thank you so much, Adrian. Super insightful, as always. Yeah, listeners and viewers, just connect with Adrian on LinkedIn. He shares everything about his renovation journey. So it's quite fun. And I must say, I've already shared it with a few friends who were in this process and found it really interesting. Also regarding the energy performance certificate and this kind of thing. So, yeah, I think that was definitely necessary to have this kind of really fresh insights of what's really happening. And yeah, and bring it back to policymakers.
Speaker #0
That's wonderful to hear, Marie. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great pleasure.
Speaker #1
Energetic explores the people, policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. I am Marine Cornelis. If you found this conversation valuable, you can share it with colleagues working on housing, governance and consumer protection. You will find references and further reading in the show notes. Until next time.
Speaker #2
I need you close, I need you here. I need you close, I need you here. And I gotta... I'm saving your attention.

Chapters

Introduction to Electrification and Tax Structure
0sec
The Role of the Electrification Alliance
1min
Adrian Hill's Personal Electrification Journey
2min
Challenges in Energy Transition and Communication
3min
Governance and Policy Implementation for Electrification
4min
Addressing Energy Poverty and Rural Electrification
5min
Conclusion and Future of Electrification in Europe
6min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energy transitions are failing not because of technology, but because of governance. Who bears the cost of getting it wrong. Who is excluded from the benefits. Who holds the institutions accountable.

The conversations are rigorous and grounded. The guests are people with direct institutional knowledge and genuine stakes in getting this right.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energy transitions are failing not because of technology, but because of governance. Who bears the cost of getting it wrong. Who is excluded from the benefits. Who holds the institutions accountable.

The conversations are rigorous and grounded. The guests are people with direct institutional knowledge and genuine stakes in getting this right.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

Introduction to Electrification and Tax Structure

0sec

The Role of the Electrification Alliance

1min

Adrian Hill's Personal Electrification Journey

2min

Challenges in Energy Transition and Communication

3min

Governance and Policy Implementation for Electrification

4min

Addressing Energy Poverty and Rural Electrification

5min

Conclusion and Future of Electrification in Europe

6min

Transcription

Speaker #0
Here in Belgium, we tax electricity four times more than we tax gas. We tax it like it's cigarettes or alcohol because 30 years ago, it was like cigarettes or alcohol. It was coal fired. It was really dirty. And we haven't updated that tax structure in 30 years, which is madness. I mean, we've baked combustion into, as a society, we've baked it into just about every type of tax policy, land use policy. Foreign affairs policy that we have has all been about facilitating combustion. And it's going to take time to unpick all of those things. But they are all changeable. They were decisions made at a time when those decisions made sense. We need politicians at local level, regional level, national level, and at the EU to realize, okay, now the situation has changed. We need our people to be able to switch to electricity. And we have to do it. everything we can to make that possible.
Speaker #1
Europe has spent years building the technical and economic case for electrification. The argument is no longer contested in most policy circles. Clean electricity deployed across transport buildings and industry is the most efficient and energy secure pathway to decarbonization. The electrification action plan expected from the Commission in May 2026. represents a formal acknowledgement of that case at the highest level. And yet the alliance that has been pushing for that case for nearly a decade still finds itself defending agreed targets against proposals to reopen them. Still arguing that the 2035 zero emission vehicle mandate should be honoured. Still calling in a letter to heads of states in March 2026 for regulatory certainty as a precondition for investment. Adrian Hill is the first director of the Electrification Alliance the first the Electrification Alliance has appointed in its history he came to Brussels from journalism and public affairs and he has spent the past decade watching the energy transition from inside organizations focused on local and European system change he describes himself consistently as a storyteller with very nice t-shirts Yes. But the story he is now responsible for is less about innovation than about institutional will. Does European governance have the architecture to convert political declarations on electrification into durable market conditions? So in this episode, we take stock of where the electrification agenda stands, not as a technical roadmap, but as a governance challenge. and we trace the distance between a compelling strategic argument and a system actually organized to act on it. Adrian, welcome to the show.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for having me, Maureen. I've been a big fan of the show for many, many years now, so I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Adrian. So, Adrian, you trained as a journalist, and you've described yourself throughout your career as a storyteller. But before we get to the Electrification Alliance... I want to understand the arc. What did journalism give you that you couldn't have got from your career that started in energy policy directly? Do you see yourself differently? Do you see something differently because of that formation?
Speaker #0
Genuinely, yes. Because with journalism, the main challenge is always to present complex things in as simple a way as possible and as clear a way as possible. And that's a skill that is really lacking in public affairs where many people prefer to do the opposite and make things seem as complicated as possible and very important. Whereas I think the simpler you can make it and the simpler that you can have, the more you can help people understand what it is you're trying to say, why it's important, the more likely they are to get on board with you.
Speaker #1
I totally, totally, totally second that. And I feel that, you know, sometimes we tend to, I mean, People in our, let's say, policy circle tend to perhaps overestimate the people they have in front of them. Whereas everybody is extremely busy and you can't be on top of the game for everything. So if you make an effort in communicating things right, maybe you gain, you build some form of trust from the person you're talking to. And at the end of the day, that may deliver better results, right? So, yeah, I totally, totally, totally second you.
Speaker #0
No, honestly, I would just add, it's also a matter of respect. When you're going in to talk to someone, whether it's a podcast here or a meeting with an MEP or a commission official, you have to put in the time and effort to figure out what they know. Where are they in their learning curve? And then adjust accordingly. Because otherwise, yeah, you're just wasting their time either telling them stuff they already know or doing it in such a complex way that you're not helping them. You have to put in that time and effort.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right. And about that, you also decided a few years ago to make a step back and try to tell the story of your own personal goal, which is to fully electrify your own life. So from heat pumps, solar, electric transport, you've been extremely public about the fact that the journey has taken longer than expected. It hasn't always been smooth. It's not over. And you've been sharing this story without synthesizing it, right? What, where, what are the actual friction points? What do you, what they tell you about the barriers that LEC claims to be solving, but isn't, right?
Speaker #0
Yep. Yep. I think, so, so back, yeah, back in 2015, right? It was coming out of the Paris agreements, that zero, or, you know, keeping, keeping global warming to within 100. 1.5 degrees. And I thought, well, the best thing I can do is to electrify my life, like take out all the direct combustion of fossil fuels in my life. That was the goal. And I gave myself 10 years to do it. So we're at 10 years and what, three and a half months now. So I've just missed the, missed my self-imposed deadline. But over that period, there was a lot of sort of two steps forward and one step back, right? I had a, I had an EV at one point. Now I have an electric cargo bike. I fully insulated a house, but I ended up spending so much on insulation that I couldn't afford the heat pump. Now, here in September, I bought a house here in Brussels. And so I've been doing it step by step, putting in the heat pump, getting the solar panels. And actually, what's really heartening is it's so much easier than it was 10 years ago when I started. I cannot underline that enough. When I set myself this target 10 years ago, it seemed incredibly daunting. Where would you even find someone in Belgium to install a heat pump? There was no one to do it. There were no, I mean, aside from the Nissan Leaf, maybe the Renault Zoe, there were no electric cars that were even available. So we're in a completely different place now, where it is absolutely feasible and doable if you know what you're doing. If you're an accountant or a dentist or whatever, like, yeah, your life is busy. You've got other priorities and things you're an expert on. So while it's totally doable, it can still seem daunting. What I really want to do is just demystify the process for people. Say, yeah, all this stuff is doable. None of the challenges are insurmountable. There are things we need to do better. We need to make this process as easy as possible. But that's all well within the realm of the possible. And we can do that.
Speaker #1
I mean, you said 10 years, but if you move, if you switch house in the middle, it's about starting over, right? So, yeah, you should give yourself some grace, perhaps. But yeah, no, I totally agree with you on the fact that it can be daunting, but there are steps that can be made. And you've been describing the energy transition as the most exciting story of the next decade. So. and during your process of electrification, right? So you still find it exciting. But let's say that excitement is quite a particular register, right? Because a lot of the people this podcast talks to, talks about, are, let's say, fuel-poor, energy-poor households, renters, people in energy-inefficient social housing, etc. They may not... experience really the excitement of the story, right? For them, it might sound a bit daunting, and maybe they don't even have any kind of leverage. I mean, in the previous episode, we listened to Ashley from Windfall Energy, who was talking about the battery that was really easy to plug in. But I mean, there is potential, but it can be very expensive, right? So when you say exciting, whose story are you telling?
Speaker #0
It's a really good point because my experience is not universally applicable. I'm very clearly a middle class, you know, that was an unfortunate slip of the tongue, a middle class, you know, fortunate person. I have to acknowledge my own privilege. There's no question. And what I often say is the easier we make it for the privileged class, the middle class to do these things, the more we can focus government resources Thank you. on helping the underprivileged, the people in social housing, the people who live in drafty homes. They will always need support, and we have to do what we can to make it available to them. And one of the ways of doing that is making the return on investment from people like me to do it as good as possible and as quickly as possible. So I completely understand, in fact, if they're not only not excited but feeling somewhat resentful, that I can borrow quite a lot of money. I'm borrowing €50,000 to do all the work. It's cost neutral. Every month that I pay off that loan, I will have saved more than that from the works I've done. They can't. If you're in energy poverty, that's simply not an option for them. So I would understand if they're feeling quite resentful about the fact that I can do this and they can't.
Speaker #1
So what is the solution that you proposed? I think,
Speaker #0
yeah, very quick. Well, I mean, part of it is acknowledging the fact that if we do things like get energy taxation, right, if we maintain car standards, if we get things like greening corporate fleets, that in a few years, there's more and more secondhand EVs. As we do that, it becomes easier and easier for people in my position to make this. There are benefits for households, right? As we electrify, we can bring down the costs of electricity. That will make it more effective. But at the same time, listen, there needs to be direct government support to help these people so they don't get that fine. There's no care about that.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. I think that's... a world of discourses about making electricity electrified like or let's say all the products that are better for the environment and better for the people so the sustainable products like the no-brainer so and in a way most of these products are on the market the thing is they are still let's say legacy components in the policy in the regulation that still make a lot of thing is difficult, right? The other day, I was assessing my electricity bill, my own electricity bill. And I saw that 10% of what I consume is like extra charge. So it corresponds to about 1.54 euros or something really, really small. But my bill is inflated by 10% to cover network losses. And I'm like, I'm someone who makes effort, who has solar panels. Depending on the months and depending on how busy the house is and how many washing machines I need to run, I save between 10 and 25% of my energy consumption. But if the supplier, authorized by the regulation, charges me 10% more when I do make efforts, that kind of neutralizes my solar panels, the impact of my solar panels. So there are this kind of legacy system that... The policymakers need to kind of figure out in order for the renewables, like sustainable investments to be the smart choice, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's frustrating, but I'll tell you what, it's everywhere. Maybe not that specific example, but here in Belgium, we tax electricity four times more than we tax gas. We catch it like it's cigarettes or alcohol because 30 years ago. It was like cigarettes or alcohol. It was coal-fired. It was really dirty. And we haven't updated that tax structure in 30 years, which is madness. So, yeah, I mean, we've baked combustion into, as a society, we've baked it into just about every type of tax policy, land use policy, foreign affairs policy that we have has all been about facilitating combustion. And it's going to take time to unpick all of those things. But they are all changeable. They were decisions made at a time when those decisions made sense. We need politicians at local level, regional level, national level, and at the EU to realize, okay, now the situation has changed. We need our people to be able to switch to electricity. And we have to do everything we can to make that possible.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's exactly what the Electrification Alliance is. And I mean, we're living in a very... particular political moment. We are, I mean, we don't know if we are out of the second energy crisis in next five years. Only time will say it. And I mean, you're the first director of the Electrification Alliance. Still, this correlation is about a decade old. So what gap was needed to be filled so that the Alliance decided to appoint someone to kind of bolster the electrification process and policy discussion.
Speaker #0
I think it was a combination of a few different things as to the timing. But I can tell you that the overall need... there is to combine the benefits of all the different technologies, right? Like demand response and dynamic tariffs is great, and you can save some money. Solar panels are great, and you can save some money. EVs are great, and you can save some money. But when you combine all of those, all of a sudden, it's a really transformational opportunity. And there wasn't anyone in the membership of the electrification alliance. We have 10 different members, solar power, wind, and your electric. They all have their own vantage points, but there is no one saying, actually, when we pick out these solutions for these people, that's where the potential gets incredibly exciting. And that's what we need to do now. I'll give you an example. Rural households, especially right now during the energy crisis with its focus on oil. So in Ireland, 25% of rural households use heating oil. Right, so there... costs are going through the roof. They also tend to spend twice as much on transport because they have to drive everywhere and they drive longer distance than that diesel. And the diesel's gone through the roof. The roofs are ideal for solar panels and the houses are easier to retrofit with heat pumps because right now they're paying even more than pipeline gas, right? They're distribution network gas. If you put together a package for rural homes, who have, in general, 9% higher rates of energy poverty, you can transform their lives. Absolutely. With that. And in doing that, you also make it easier to do things like build new infrastructure for electrification. If you need a north-south connector in Germany, for example, because people then also see the benefits, they feel the benefits of electrification in their own lives.
Speaker #1
Right?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It's really that combination.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and that's very much also one of the pushes of the alliance, right? Because there is this electrification action plan that should come out in May 2026, so in a month from now. And you've been publishing some detailed recommendation and you've been putting a lot of emphasis on this importance of having rural households, etc., which is also... something that was very clear from the citizens energy package that was released in march 2026 so what i feel that what i what you seem to argue is like let's make things coherent so that they trickle down to everyday people especially in the places where they have tended they tend not to receive the same information the same quality of information the same uh level of protection and They don't seem really empowered really by the transition, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think the electrification action plan is actually going to come out in June, is what I learned this week, by the way. Yeah, I think the Commission is quite busy with their response to the ongoing crisis. And so I think it's been pushed back a few weeks just for workload reasons. So still, I mean, it's welcome. Whether it comes in May or June, that's great. Honestly, our biggest ask for that electrification action plan, is to implement all the stuff we've already agreed. We have most of the legislation at EU level. But if people don't have a smart meter in their home, because the rollout has been really slow and they don't have access to dynamic tariffs, then you can't do smart charging. You can't run your heat pump efficiently. There's really fundamental stuff that we've already agreed in the Renewable Energy Directive and in the Clean Energy for All package from 2019. Getting that stuff implemented. on the ground so people actually feel it in national legislation is more important than coming up with brand new things at eu level because those will inevitably take time to trickle down right that's the democratic process it takes time our number one thing is just let's let's implement the stuff we already agreed and that includes then as well stuff like you know car emission standards the reason we have a load of electric cars that costs €25,000 now, is because of EU emission standards. They work. And now the car lobby is again trying to water it down, which is mind-bogglingly ridiculous when people are paying €2.40 or whatever it is for a litre of diesel. So we need to stick to our guns on that. We need to stick to our guns on ETS2. We need that social climate fund to help people actually make these investments, right? That's massively important. That's the main thing. There's going to be other stuff in there that we'd like to see, like areas for industrial electrification. If you've got a cluster of a bunch of industries in one place, don't go through 10 different permitting processes. Lump them all together, build one big grid extension, do all the permitting at the same time so that they can go faster. That's one clear thing that could really, really help.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and something that I think is interesting and that the current crisis has put into perspective, that it's not only a question of climate, it's also a question about sovereignty, about being less dependent on the hectic behavior of certain business partners. Very right. Yeah, try to. And yes, on really importation of really... like unreliable sources of energy, right? So it's been about reducing the fossil fuel import bill, about cutting dependence, of course. There is also sometimes a lot of hostility from certain partners when we decide to gain our independence as a continent. So why do you think this kind of... I'm asking you as a storyteller, what do you think the impact of this kind of... Strategic reframing, tactical adaptation, do you think it has more chance to be accepted in the long term than climate? Because we know that certain groups, certain trends tend to overlook the climate risk and really see only say that, you know, the investments that we make for renewable energies are going to be expensive, right? So do you think that arguing... for cutting dependence and strategic autonomy and this kind of thing, which would be more salient than the emission case?
Speaker #0
I would say that they're going to appeal to different groups. How salient it remains is going to depend on how present the threat is. If there are parts of Europe that are threatened with annexation and invasion, it's going to stay really, really relevant for a lot of people. Certainly, I'm not going to forget that threat. Other people might have shorter memories. We forgot the 2022 gas crisis a lot faster than I thought we would. It sunk out of our collective memory pretty quickly. But now we're talking existential threats. And the idea, I don't think we can ever go back to the idea that the US is going to be a reliable energy provider. Right. And fundamentally, the U.S. has changed, whereas and this was in a report from from Ember yesterday that they made this point that I hadn't considered it. But it's absolutely true. Up until 2009, the U.S. was a massive energy importer. It was in their best interest to ensure the global flow in fossil fuels because they needed them. The U.S. is now the biggest exporter when there is market disruption. elsewhere in the world they stand to profit yeah rather than having a vested interest in ensuring the flow that's a fundamental shift in their motivations yep yeah and that's that's not going to change so i would hope that our political leaders at the very least realize that the the global supply that we depended on for the last several decades has had irrevocably changed that doesn't regardless of what the public perception is that motivation doesn't change anymore.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I've been making the same observation and I've been wondering when we will start using the term oligarch to explain what's going on in the US as well, right? Because we knew that from Russia and the way it was working, but maybe now it's also time to apply it to the US as well. Anyway, moving on a little bit to this geopolitical discourse that is, of course, bigger than any of us and where we would need more cohesion and less division. Something that is fundamentally interesting in this, let's say, current crisis is that we have so many more tools, just like the one we talked about in the previous episode, like batteries, but also balcony solar and smaller, more mobile tools, right? you So how would the impact be in your view? And is it something you think you will work on actively defending as the Electrification Alliance in the years to come?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. A, this is a very different energy crisis than 2022, right? That's one thing. In this energy crisis, electricity is largely unaffected. It is a safe haven, right? Yeah. Explicitly a safe haven in the Nordics and Iberia and France, but even in countries like Belgium. We only get 16% of our electricity from gas in Belgium. So all of a sudden, if I've got a small battery and a dynamic tariff and I can shift a bit of demand, my entire electricity supply is gas-free, essentially. I'm completely unaffected because of the technology of smart meters and a small battery. I bought mine at Ikea. This is mainstream market stuff, right? And that option wasn't there in 2022 with the gas prices, that I could change, I can make a small investment, change my behavior a little bit, and all of a sudden I've cut out gas from my electricity supply. Regardless of how it's done at national level, I have that control. So that's a huge, huge change. And that's something that I think hasn't sunk in with political leaders. Certainly if you saw what... Germany proposed this week 2 billion to support drivers. Talking with an MEP last night, she told me that that's going to save drivers 10 euro a month. It's not a very good return on investment for 2 billion euro. You'd be far better off rolling out smart meters and helping people shift their demand and giving them a small battery. And it's available to people in apartments. people who rent, right? These are groups that previously we could not help aside from sending them a check. That was the only way we could help them. Now we can give them the tools to change their energy consumption in line with European energy that's cheap and abundant and clean. And that's a massive, massive shift.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very, very interesting one. A few weeks ago, I thought about, you know, And... The fable of the hare and the turtle, and that the electrification was very much like a turtle and that, you know, it goes steady, whereas fossils and like this kind of legacy mindset were very much like the hare, and they still think of just sending a check when we need to be a little bit more like the turtle and be a little bit more steady in the choices that we make. But anyway, talking about metaphors, you set up one called the electrification staircase. you Yeah, so it's a kind of a framework for prioritizing electrification by impact, where it delivers most now and next. So can you tell us a little bit more about the staircase and what does it imply in terms also in terms of governance, in terms of sequencing, in terms of prioritization?
Speaker #0
Sure, sure. So, yeah, it was it's not not just me. It was Michael Liebreich, Dr. Sylvia Medetti from Schneider Electric, Tom Butler from the Regulatory Assistance Project and William Drake from Liebreich Associates. The five of us collaborated on this, and it's an attempt to show industry leaders when their industry is going to electrify so that they can start preparing now. It's an attempt to show political leaders this is the progression that needs to that will happen and needs to be done. so that they can do that in the most efficient way possible and adjust legislation. And it's also fundamentally a message that electrification is inevitable in a bunch of different industrial sectors. It is going to happen. And we've tried to put timelines on it, but it's a global look. So there will be areas that are faster and areas that are slower. But it's absolutely inevitable because it's fundamentally cheaper and more efficient. But we all have a role to play in making and achieving that as quickly as possible. So the biggest nuance that needs to be made with the electrification staircase is the first steps, the easiest steps, the things like domestic hot water and heating and electric vehicles and low temperature industrial processes like brewing, like food processes, textiles. Those come first. A, because they're the easiest. That's obviously true. But B, because they tend to be flexible. And that's really, really key. Because that flexibility, it increases the amount of electricity demand, which is in turn met with renewables. Overwhelmingly renewables. We don't really need to talk about where the power is going to come from anywhere. They're just too much cheaper. But fundamentally, they don't increase the peak. And that means that the overall price comes down. And that is really, really fundamental for later on when you're trying to do more energy intensive industries that don't have flexibility. They need to run 24-7. They need to run at high temperatures. They need consistent low electricity to be able to do that. And the only way you do that, well, not the only way, but the biggest thing will be getting the flexibility in the system from the domestic heating, from the electric cars and from the low temperature process heating.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's very interesting to see that there are ways to make it happen. And so, again, the policymakers haven't necessarily catch up on everything. And, you know, earlier you were mentioning Germany and the kind of vouchers, but I've seen that in Italy as well. Like the Italian government is also going in directions that honestly don't make any sense to me. And you also have the industry, on the other hand, to say we are ready for flexibility. We are ready to invest. Just give us the framework. Let's go. you I'm very, very frustrated by the fact that the governments are not catching up fast enough and that there is still so much left to do when everything could be ready already.
Speaker #0
I would just say, I understand the desire from politicians to help people, right? And this subsidizing prices at the fuel pump seems like a logical thing to do, right? But the fact is, in a shortage, it doesn't help. And B, if you want to help households or businesses, do it in a way that doesn't impact the long-term trajectory. So cut VAT on electricity bills. If a driver is paying an extra 200 euro a month to get around, well, save him some money on his electricity bills. It doesn't have to come at the pump. We can help those families while also helping make sure that the long-term solution is actually put into place. But I think in some... countries, notably the two we just talked about, there is an ideological preference there that is inexplicable in the world of physics or economics.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's this kind of culture war. And one of my theories about that is that some countries tend or certain policy trends tend to like centralized, visualized, visible... actions and that would require you know a big power plant burning fuels and so on as a way you know to to kind of demonstrate or showcase leadership so this kind of ramble behavior right sure it is very very much exactly exactly but the fact that you put the term macho on it is i mean i had this conversation last year with some african researchers who told me exactly that that that the decentralized small installation was sometimes felt as feminine, whereas the massive power plant investment and this kind of things are being seen as the masculine one. And in this kind of legacy metro thinking, well, you should never push too much for the embracing the feminine side. So, I mean, that is like, for me, it's very, very, very, it's way too much as a way of thinking. Why would you engage in a cultural war over something that is better for the people and better for the planet? But it seems to be that it's the world we are living in. And yeah, let's go back to your renovation journey, Adrian.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so you've been very public about it, the heat pump, the solar, the friction, and you've also mentioned I'm wanting the electrification action plan to include some specific focus on real electrification. Although before you worked for Citi, so you have like, there is something you really want to address this side of your career, right? So I want to connect two things. So what does your personal experience tell you, told you about what the EU support architecture is still getting wrong for ordinary households? Notch early adopters with the resources to navigate it.
Speaker #0
You know, the biggest thing has been that a lot of people just want reassurance. So since this series of videos has come out, I've had a number of people reach out, ask questions, ask for help. I've gone over to their homes and they generally know what to do. They know what they want. They just want someone to tell them that it's the right thing, that they're not paying too much. That it's going to be feasible. They're taking a leap of faith.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And they want someone to tell them that it's going to be fine. Yeah. So to that end, honestly, if you look back at the energy performance of building standards and the one-stop shops within there. That, to me, is a really underplayed asset that I hope countries really accelerate. Those one-stop shops will be independent hubs for information for people to go to and say, what do I need to do? Where do I need to start? Because it's not that difficult. No one's doing plumbing or electrical work themselves. utterly feasible but we have to give people the reassurance and the confidence to do that and that will come with time as it becomes the normal thing right people in finland and sweden don't feel the same way about getting a heat pump because 60 of the houses have heat pumps it's just normal yeah here in belgium in italy it's not normal no and so there's you know there's trepidation uh going from you know the known and trusted gas boiler it won't let you down to something new and different. And that's the single biggest thing, is that we've got the technological solutions, we've got the economic solutions, this is now a social transition as much as anything else. And we need social scientists to help us with it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I totally second that. And if you're interested in the topic of building trust around the contractors and the process, etc., a few episodes ago, we had Elora Koop from... her own space who creates some kind of online community for women to help each other. I suppose it's open to everyone, but it's a very, very interesting angle because very often it's the decision maker in the home will be the woman or it's a family decision. And maybe she will spend more time trying to look for information, but she will be overlooked and the information may not be designed to her needs. It's really interesting that this kind of movement is starting to appear to fill this gap that maybe an institutional one-stop shop wouldn't manage to cover. Yep,
Speaker #0
that's really interesting.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so I will refer to this episode in the show notes, but it's just a very good one and it's only a few episodes ago, so please catch up with it. Let's close then, because, yeah, we've been talking so much, it's been super interesting. So. I would like you to look back across your first year in this role. So what has surprised you most, maybe about resistance or about momentum? I mean, it's been quite a ride already. Less than a year, it's been quite a ride already, right?
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's been a massive ride. One of the early surprises was just how much positive reaction there is to this. Coming from, you know, a lot of energy work was around climate and it was about... doing less, stopping doing things, all of a sudden this is a positive case. This is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to bring. This is what's new. This is what's exciting. That shift is really, really interesting. And then the other shift, honestly, was this week. Ursula von der Leyen calling for ambitious electrification targets that she's going to deliver in the next couple of months. That's massive. That provides a level of certainty that I have. that I haven't questioned, but that a lot of other people haven't had. And providing that certainty, we are going to electrify. We're going to have half of our economy electrified by 2040. I assume that's going to be the target. I hope it is. That provides a whole lot of certainty for a lot of other players to say, okay, this is going to happen. It's going to happen in the next 15 years. What do we need to do to make it happen? That shift is massive. It's very, very important. So I'm over the moon right now. We've got all the momentum. going for us. We really just need to go as fast as possible.
Speaker #1
That's very, very good and inspirational words to end up this podcast with. So thank you so much, Adrian. Super insightful, as always. Yeah, listeners and viewers, just connect with Adrian on LinkedIn. He shares everything about his renovation journey. So it's quite fun. And I must say, I've already shared it with a few friends who were in this process and found it really interesting. Also regarding the energy performance certificate and this kind of thing. So, yeah, I think that was definitely necessary to have this kind of really fresh insights of what's really happening. And yeah, and bring it back to policymakers.
Speaker #0
That's wonderful to hear, Marie. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great pleasure.
Speaker #1
Energetic explores the people, policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. I am Marine Cornelis. If you found this conversation valuable, you can share it with colleagues working on housing, governance and consumer protection. You will find references and further reading in the show notes. Until next time.
Speaker #2
I need you close, I need you here. I need you close, I need you here. And I gotta... I'm saving your attention.

Chapters

Introduction to Electrification and Tax Structure

0sec

The Role of the Electrification Alliance

1min

Adrian Hill's Personal Electrification Journey

2min

Challenges in Energy Transition and Communication

3min

Governance and Policy Implementation for Electrification

4min

Addressing Energy Poverty and Rural Electrification

5min

Conclusion and Future of Electrification in Europe

6min