[SUMMER REPLAY] Shana Gallagher on ISO Standards: Ensuring Accountability in Corporate Climate Strategies | Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Description

What ignites a lifelong passion for climate justice and energy transition? For Shana Gallagher, it was the haunting beauty of the ocean and the stark realization of how human actions can devastate marine ecosystems. Join host Marine Cornelis as she delves into the inspiring journey of Shana, the Dynamic Net Zero Engagement Manager at the British Standards Institution (BSI). Shana's transformation from political activism in the U. S. to a pivotal role in the private sector underscores the essential need for corporate engagement in achieving ambitious net-zero emissions targets.

In this enlightening episode of Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition, Shana shares her insights on the significance of ISO standards as credible benchmarks for climate action. Discover the groundbreaking work behind the world's first formal certifiable net zero standard, which serves as a vital tool for organizations navigating the complexities of the energy transition. As the conversation unfolds, Shana candidly addresses the pressing challenges of greenwashing, emphasizing the urgent need for clear guidelines that ensure accountability in corporate climate strategies.

With the climate crisis accelerating, the role of businesses in fostering sustainability has never been more critical. Shana highlights the ISO net zero guidelines, offering organizations a roadmap to craft effective net zero strategies. This episode resonates with the core themes of energy justice and decarbonisation, illuminating how companies can contribute to a just transition while aligning with global climate goals. Shana’s work exemplifies the intersection of clean tech, renewable energy, and community energy initiatives, showcasing how innovative solutions can empower businesses to thrive in an evolving landscape.

Listen in as we explore the vital connections between energy access, electrification, and the broader implications of energy policy on our planet's future. Shana’s unique perspective not only sheds light on the corporate side of climate action but also inspires hope through frugal innovation and the pursuit of green jobs. This episode of Energ’Ethic is a clarion call for all stakeholders—business leaders, policymakers, and individuals—to engage actively in the energy transition, ensuring that we leave a sustainable world for future generations. Tune in and be part of the change!

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

Keep up to date with new episodes s=1">straight from your inbox

Reach out to Marine Cornelis via app/profile/marinenextenerg. bsky. socia">BlueSky</a> or <a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer nofollow" href="https://www. linkedin. com/in/marinecornelis">LinkedIn
Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

Support Energ'Ethic on com/Energethic">Patreon

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hello! Passionate about sustainability, energy and climate? You're in the right place. Welcome to Energetik. I'm Maureen Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. They may be activists, scientists, policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. Today we are going to meet Shana Gallagher, the Dynamic Net Zero Engagement Manager at the prestigious British Standards Institution, BSI. With Shana, passion meets purpose in the fight against climate change. She stands at the forefront of a groundbreaking coalition bringing together ISO, the UN Race to Zero campaign, and the UNFCCC Global Innovation Hub. She leads the charge in corporate engagement and the widespread adoption of the ISO Net Zero Guidelines. Her mission, in a nutshell, is to forge credible, ambitious net-zero strategies that significantly slash private sector emissions. In short, she's committed to setting the right benchmarks for climate action. Let's dive into Shanna's journey. Shanna, welcome to Energetic.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Shanna. So, Shanna, what sparked your interest and led you to become deeply involved in climate advocacy somehow in the formulation of net-zero strategies?
Speaker #1
It is a very long story, so I will do my best to keep it short. Thank you so much again for having me on today. I was very fortunate, as so many people who are deeply passionate about the climate crisis are, to grow up in places and environments where I was able to spend a lot of time outdoors and in nature and specifically by the ocean. And I was a big swimmer growing up and had a lot of love for marine life. And... When I was nine years old at a birthday party on the beach, I have a very vivid memory of looking out at the sunlight glistening on the waves and admiring how beautiful the view was, only to realize after several minutes that what I was really seeing was thousands of dead fish floating to the surface and reflecting the sunlight, not just the sunlight glistening off of the waves. And that was the first time at a very early age that I really understood. that human activity could harm the natural ecosystems that I felt so strongly that it was then my duty to protect. And so that very formative early experience led to more realizations of the role that humans are playing in altering and changing our planet and our climate. And there have been many iterations of what That has meant for me in terms of my impact, but ultimately, over the course of my career, it became increasingly clear to me that the climate crisis is in fact a political problem, not a data problem or a social problem. And that previously, the biggest role that I could play, you may be able to tell from the sound of my voice that I'm American, was in driving political change. political will for action on climate in the United States. So for the past seven or eight years of my career, that is the work that I had been doing. And I worked for candidates and for campaigns that had very strong pro-environment, anti-climate change platforms. But ultimately, we certainly don't need to get into the upcoming election in the United States on this podcast. but ultimately I determined that actually leveraging political systems was not the best and most efficient way to make change given the time frame that we have to tackle the climate crisis. And so after about seven years working in politics in the U.S., I made a decision to move over to the private sector, which I believe has a greater potential to reduce emissions within, again, the very short time frame that we have. And I'm very proud to say that I've always made career decisions based on answering the question, what can I do to have the single greatest impact in reducing emissions and tackling the climate crisis? And I fundamentally believe that the work that we're doing at BSI, the British Standards Institution, to help develop the world's first ever formal certifiable net zero standard is the answer right now. And so that is how I came to BSI and to the world of standards, which is generally... somewhat boring and wonky and behind the scenes, but again, is a crucial lever that we can activate in order to scale and accelerate the transition and ultimately save the world. So that is my story and why I'm so excited to help your listeners understand what the role of standards is today.
Speaker #0
That's incredible. And I mean, I don't think that we ever had such a compelling story to start with. So thank you so much, Janelle. And I must say that I totally relate with the love for water and for marine animals as well. uh people who know me know that i'm i have like whales over my place but that's really like i mean we all need the ways to to start with and and i mean that's also such an interesting shift you kind of made from let's say the political sphere to uh the private sector sphere because many uh at least in europe there are still a lot of people who are a little bit kind of uh who have kind of cold feet regarding the private sector possibility of action. But as I said in the introduction, somehow you and the role of ISO is to set the right benchmarks to kind of foster their action. So can you dig a little bit deeper into what those standards are for? And actually, what is the story of this, the organizations, because there are several for standardization?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. First of all, I feel very compelled to say, because we haven't talked about this before, Maureen, that I'm also obsessed with whales. I have a whale bracelet. I have a whale tail tattoo. So we are great minds thinking alike. Whales are majestic and very motivating for both of us. That's very funny. So yes, what is the role of ISO and the history? Very proudly, I would love to tell you, as BSI likes to talk about often, that actually BSI is the oldest and largest national standards body of the 170 standards bodies that are members and participants within the ISO system. And so the precursor organization that became BSI, the British Standards Institution, was formed in 1901. So we've been around for a very long time providing standards, which are essentially just guidance and... rules, voluntary rules, for how industry should proceed in designing and creating and implementing goods and services in a way that will be most efficient and beneficial for society. So BSI is the UK's national standards body, and we are the UK national body or member of ISO, which is the International Standards Organization. I often describe ISO as the new end of standards bodies. That's how your listeners should think about it. So basically every country in the world, for the most part, that participates has a national standards body. The exception is the United States, which has lots of different standards bodies, but they're all represented within ANSI. So that's de facto the U.S. national standards body. In every other case, a country will have just one national standards body. and they all liaise with and talk to and negotiate with each other and develop standards within the international standards system, namely ISO. So that is the structure and the role of standards. There are tens of thousands of standards around the world at both the national and the international level. The role of standards is to provide a set of guidance and definition for what good looks like for any given product or service or sector. And so when I said earlier that this can be quite boring and behind the scenes, we often describe standards as the fabric of the real economy. So there are tens of thousands of standards at work and at play every single day that already are the foundation of a lot of the... trust and accountability and verification in the market. So for example,
Speaker #0
yeah, the sheet of paper, for instance, it's one of those like the things that we can think of like A4, it's like the same.
Speaker #1
It's the same everywhere. Yes. And the reason that we also trust the food that we eat and know it's not going to poison us and we know that the laptop we buy is going to work is because standards underpin those products and services. Again, they are usually voluntary. There are some standards that are mandated by law, but there is more industry buy-in because it helps to achieve credibility and trust in the market when you are abiding by standards and have the certification that comes along with abiding by standards. So different sectors and industries use standards to different degrees, but they historically have been quite... industry and sector specific. And that is what we are trying to change now with this first ever formal certifiable net zero standard, because obviously net zero applies to every sector and industry and the entire economy and all of society needs to transition off of fossil fuels and to net zero. And so that is why leveraging this very powerful, often behind the scenes infrastructure of tens of thousands of standards and tens of thousands of people around the world in basically every country whose job it is to develop and then implement and certify against formal standards will provide a level of accountability and trust that is really lacking in the net zero ecosystem and the net zero governance landscape right now. And I'm sure many of your listeners will already We know that greenwashing, which is when. private sector organizations make claims about their climate action and their net zero action that then are not actually corroborated or based in any real plan is much more easily achievable when there is no clear standard. So we will provide that clear understanding of not only what is a good net zero target, but what is a good credible plan to achieve it. And that is the clarity that the... first ever formal certifiable standard around net zero will bring to the market.
Speaker #0
That's super interesting that you bring this issue of greenwashing forward because the European Parliament recently voted in favor of regulation against really greenwashing and against false green claims. So from what I understand, let's say that the standards, international standards, they are like acting in the background, whereas regulation, they would. give some let's say broader considerations but then the practice it will trickle down to somehow this kind of standards organization to make sure that there are some some taxonomy some way to to talk to each other to make sure that when we talk about something we talk about the same thing we speak the same language we have the same kind of of understanding of the outcomes of the components as well and that when for instance we talk about i don't know bread We talk about something that is made with flour and water and salt, and we are not talking about something that is made with fruit or sugar. I mean, there can be sugar in bread, of course, but it's not something that is made with, let's say, coal. It's not matching with bread, for instance. I mean, I think it's also something that we kind of tend to forget when we focus a lot on regulation, that many, many things are actually already happening and that you complement each other, like the standards are complementing regulation somehow.
Speaker #1
Yes, and I would love to just use that example as a segue to talk about the three primary differences between formal certifiable standards. So those are the standards that are created within the ISO or the BSI system and more voluntary. The word standards is often used, but frameworks or initiatives. And these are the frameworks that have been governing net zero action to date. And that's because, again, there hasn't been a formal certifiable net zero standard yet. There is something called the ISO net zero guidelines already within the ISO system that I'll speak more about later on. and these guidelines are part of the foundation that is in place. forming the development of the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard. But historically, for the past five or 10 years of the climate economy really taking shape, the organizations and frameworks that have been governing net zero action have been primarily led by nonprofit voluntary organizations. And that is wonderful and important because they've mobilized the private sector. but The frameworks and initiatives, to a certain extent, I should say, but the frameworks and initiatives that they have created are different from formal certifiable standards in these three very important ways. So just to speak to the role of regulation, there is a very strong precedent for standards, formal certifiable standards, to inform legislative development in many, many contexts. And the reason for that is actually in large part because of... World Trade Organization law. So within WTO law, it is mandated that as a mechanism to reduce barriers to trade. WTO member countries and policymakers within them have to refer to relevant formal certifiable standards, which often tend to be ISO standards, when they are developing policy relevant to that standard and the issue that it touches on. So from your point of interoperability and streamlining the transition, getting this net zero standard right is going to inform. the net zero legislation that inevitably will emerge in countries around the world in a very important, powerful way. The two other major differences between formal certifiable standards and voluntary initiatives is the global scope of ISO. So I mentioned there are 170 different member bodies and countries within ISO. So that global structure is really going to help scale and accelerate the transition all over the world, which ultimately we really need. This is a global transition. And then there's also a very powerful and important mechanism and infrastructure called the global quality infrastructure at play. So national standards bodies and the international standards organization ISO don't operate in a vacuum. They operate alongside formal assurance bodies. And so in the UK, for example, we have BSI and then we have UCAS. And that binary relationship it. with the UK accreditation body, UCAS, is the binary relationship that's replicated in basically every ISO member country and at the international level, where formal standards are developed. And then folks who work for these accreditation bodies, their job is to go out and train the auditors of the world who then certify and verify against these standards. So ISO standards often come with a regular audit. And again, that accountability mechanism is something that is really lacking from the net zero governance landscape right now, because the voluntary initiatives and the nonprofit organizations that I mentioned, who've done a wonderful job mobilizing the private sector initially to take on the climate crisis, do not have the resources or the capacity to be the global governance mechanism for a global transition. And at the same time, the global quality infrastructure is designed to do exactly that, to provide trust and verification in the market. And so when we can scale and converge and harmonize the really wonderful work that voluntary initiatives like the Science-Based Target Initiative and the Greenhouse Gas Protocol and even ISSB have done to generate these voluntary frameworks for defining various aspects of good net zero action. And we can formalize that within a standard, which will be the first ever formal certifiable standard. It is going to help scale and accelerate the excellent work that they have started in a way that will provide that accountability and verification that is really lacking right now. And ultimately, that is what it will take to ensure that the transition is happening quickly and credibly such that we can avoid. catastrophic climate change and maintain warming to well below two degrees.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's really so interesting because indeed, when you see the non-profit NGO world, they often lack the capacity for enforcement. And it's also something that is always pointed out whenever there is a good regulation coming out that you have this enforcement issue. and yeah And many countries, they don't have enough capacity to go and knock the door of every business and ask if they are actually doing what they should be doing. So, I mean, I wouldn't expect like the quality standards to apply to mom and pop shop, but somehow they do because they are in direct contact with other organizations who actually have to do it. So it's really part of an ecosystem that you can, if I understand correctly, it makes really everything a little bit more smooth and reliable and that actually fosters trust as a consumer, as an end user, but also as a citizen.
Speaker #1
Yes, exactly. And that is part of what we'll get, hopefully, in terms of consumer understanding of net zero and who is taking credible net zero action. Again, when you are abiding by formal certifiable standards, that means you're certified against them. That means you quite literally get, you know, a certificate or an icon or a label that demonstrates your alignment with. ISO standards with BSI standards, you know, any number of formal standards. And that is something that consumers can then look for. And this certifiability, this checking of the box is something that private sector organizations are really hungering for. Because one of the problems that is leading to an action on... the climate crisis is that because the net zero governance landscape is so fragmented and confusing right now, it's often called the alphabet soup of ESG frameworks and initiatives. It's very easy to criticize and it's much harder to celebrate. And so I should make it very clear to your listeners, greenwashing is, it often happens on accident. It's not always sinister. or with malintent that private sector or any organization are saying, let's hoodwink the public and we're going to continue to produce and emit greenhouse gases, but we'll tell everyone we're doing a phenomenal job. I would say that that does happen much more consistently within the fossil fuel industry, but in many other industries, organizations really want to take action. They just don't know how because this net zero. governance landscape of voluntary initiatives is so fragmented and confusing right now. And so this fear of greenwashing accusations has actually led to something called green hushing, where organizations are basically not doing anything because they don't want to be criticized. Or if they are doing something, they're quite quiet and behind the scenes about it. So what this means is if we can get a net zero standard right, that is holistic and credible and includes all of the necessary components of a credible, effective, high-impact, net-zero journey that will actually reduce emissions and facilitate a just transition, then having a check-the-box exercise is a good thing. The market needs to have a mechanism to understand very clearly and consistently who's doing a good job and who isn't. And again, that is something that you rightfully point out is just not. a facet of the resources and capacity that non-profit organizations have inherently, but it is the exact function of the quality infrastructure, the formal international standard system, and the formal international assurance system.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so somehow you act as the sheriff who will just say here or there, there is something that is not working. And I would assume that you also work with consumer organizations, consumer agencies, national consumer agencies to kind of work on improvement because I would suppose that those standards, they need continuous improvement as the world evolves. And if I'm correct, I read somewhere that you were... The ISO was planning on reviewing all of its 24,000 standards to align with the Paris Agreement. So that's a huge job. So how do you make sure you stay up to date? And how does really the work in setting those kind of international benchmarks do work with the multitude of partners you have to deal with?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up that very important. climate change commitment of ISOs. It's called the London Declaration, or it was originally. And what's important to keep in mind here in terms of, yeah, not just the ISO net zero standard, but changing all of the standards to align with Paris climate science, which is what ISO is committed to, as you pointed out through this London Declaration, is once again, if you agree that standards are the fabric of the real economy, tens of thousands of standards underpin the real economy in basically every. geography in every sector to varying degrees, and you also agree that the entire real economy needs to transition to net zero, which we do in order to protect the one planet that we have, then you would also agree that not only do we need a net zero standard that will facilitate the transition in a very clear way in terms of the process for organizations to achieving net zero, but we also need every single other standard that already exists. to be aligned with the transition. So that is exactly the process that the London Declaration has embarked upon updating all of ISO standards to be aligned with Paris Climate Science. And that process combined with developing the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard will really help to activate and leverage this system that we've been talking about for the transition and to ensure that the economy can credibly achieve net zero by 2050 or sooner. And so the question you're essentially asking is, is how does this work? And the role of standards bodies, formal national and international standards bodies, is to once again converge and harmonize best practice. So we, and by we, I mean folks who work for national standards bodies or international standards bodies, there is no, No one person makes up. this system. This is a consensus-based system, but we view our role as converging and harmonizing the best practice that has often already been developed in the market or by non-profit initiatives in the case of net zero. And so the way that the ISO net zero standard will be developed, for example, is through ISO's Climate Change Committee. And once again, these committees and the entire system, they operate sort of like the UN. So... The way ISO standards are developed is that every country that participates has a vote on the relevant ISO committee. So in this case, the ISO Climate Change Committee, which is technically called ISO TC 207. And all of these countries will come together and represent their country interests, but also the industry and issue experts who make up those national standards bodies and those national committees who are then. using best practice that already exists in the market and the needs of their members and their constituents to develop standards. Can you share an example,
Speaker #0
like something really that you've worked on and that has successfully moved to the next phase?
Speaker #1
Well, I think the best example is what is happening now with the conversion of the ISO net zero guidelines into the formal certifiable net zero standard that we've been dancing around. So the guidelines are not yet a formal certifiable standard, but they were developed within the ISO system. So again, consensus-based, over 1,200 stakeholders from over 100 countries participated in this six-month process where you can imagine, if anyone who's listening has seen videos of the UNFCCC negotiations, for example. These meetings did not happen in person, but you can imagine 1,200 stakeholders on an online platform joining Zoom calls, contributing to and then deliberating about the components of a credible net zero strategy and what that includes, which ended up informing the ISO net zero guidelines, which are the first deliverable within the ISO framework that not only define net zero, but define a credible path to achieve it. which includes the seven steps of net zero action. So those are prepare, measure, target, reduce, removals, report, and impact. And now these ISO net zero guidelines, which were published and launched at COP27, are being converted into a net zero standard. And so the way that will work is that again, ISO's Climate Change Committee, which has representatives from all of the member countries and it will meet on a regular basis. to convert the guidelines into a formal certifiable standard. And the other organizations or stakeholders that can participate in that process are international nonprofit organizations, which are joining ISO's Climate Change Committee in order to help ensure that the ultimate standard has the expertise and perspective. that they have spent the past many years developing and honing. So, for example, a lot of the voluntary initiatives that I mentioned, the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, for example, CDP, the Carbon Disclosure Project, have joined ISO's Climate Change Committee as what is called liaison organizations in order to ensure that the best practice that they've developed is embedded in the ultimate net zero standard. So, once again, the role of standards is not to recreate the wheel. It's not to place any additional burden on organizations or private sector actors. It's to converge and harmonize the fragmented and often disparate landscape of voluntary frameworks in one place so that it's very clear for industry and for organizations what having a credible net zero strategy looks like.
Speaker #0
When you were talking, I didn't mind the director d'orchestre, the chef d'orchestre, the person who guides an orchestra, the conductor, I think you say that in English? Yes, yeah. Yeah, the conductor for the various instruments who actually play the same melody and it sounds very much like that. Exactly. Yeah, I was at Co-op in Dubai and I found it really pretty fascinating, but also totally overwhelming, the quantity of people who are attending. And I must say that I totally admire the capacity of organizing a potential chaos. Also, because I would imagine that you need a lot of translators and interpreters to make sure that everybody speaks the same language and agrees on certain rules. and how does the like the decision-making work at the end of the day. And I guess that's such a, I mean, I'm discovering along with the listeners, I think. So how does that harmonization, how does that, let's say, construction of the melody, how does it work in practice?
Speaker #1
Yes, no, absolutely. That's a really good metaphor. Thank you for raising it. And it can get messy. I'm sure you can imagine the process with those 1,200 stakeholders that I mentioned for developing the ISO net zero guidelines, tears were shed a non-zero number of times by frustrated people trying to agree and find alignment. But ultimately, again, that is the real value of the ISO system. And why standards are so trusted, it's because they are consensus-based. So unlike the UN, where agreements need to be unanimously agreed upon. ISO standards need 80% agreement in order to be formalized and finalized. So the way it works is that every member country has a vote, and the vote happens, and 80% agreement will allow the standard to be formally adopted and finalized, and therefore the market to start using it. So it is a transition in its own right. Having this system, which over the past many decades has happened usually in person, moving to online and the facilitation of standards committees happening by the committee managers and the experts that they convene, again, is changing in its own right. But I'm sure all of us have been on many Zoom calls these days and can understand how a project. could come together from various stakeholders all over the world. The translation element is certainly difficult. We do have real-time translation that happens for most meetings at this point. And ISO resources are all translated into six languages by default. Any standard will be available in six languages. I believe it's English, French. Chinese, Russian, Japanese, and I am forgetting the sixth one, which is embarrassing. You should certainly go. Did I not say Spanish? Yeah, definitely Spanish. But if you go, if you're a listener, go to iso.org slash net zero. That is where the ISO net zero guidelines can be downloaded for free in any of those six languages. And it is just a sometimes messy process of time zone and language coordination, but ultimately... It has worked so far and will continue to work for the purposes of developing, again, the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard to provide that clarity and demystification of credible net zero action that we so urgently need.
Speaker #0
So if a business or a business owner who is listening to this podcast wants to implement this kind of standards, like net zero standards within the organization, what should they do?
Speaker #1
So glad you asked. And I just said the answer, but I will say it again now. The ISO net zero guidelines are free to use and download at iso.org slash net zero. And they are already being used by organizations around the world to create either from scratch or to enhance credible net zero strategies. And that is my job at BSI. I work. with companies that want to use the guidelines to create and enhance and develop their own net zero journey in line with global best practice. So for example, General Motors is a company that we work with very closely that has chosen to adopt the guidelines to develop their own net zero strategy This is a tool that you absolutely can and should use now, even though it's not yet a formal certifiable standard. And the reason to use it now is because you can de-risk your net zero strategy. We know that what's included in the guidelines, these seven steps of net zero action, preparing, measuring, targeting, so setting a net zero target, reducing, so actually mitigating and reducing emissions, which is, of course, in many ways, the most important part. deep decarbonization, what that means for removals, how often to report, and the impact or systems approach that is required to deliver net zero. These are all aspects of a credible net zero strategy that even though a formal certifiable standard doesn't exist yet, we know that it will. So if you adopt the guidelines and use them to create your strategy now, you'll be ahead of the curve. You can really make a name for yourself and prevent. any future consequences for not aligning with the standard once it is out in the market. And once again, you can help to demonstrate to other organizations around the world what best practice looks like and what that means for you. The reality is no organization on earth can credibly say, I know exactly what every day is going to be looking like between now and 2050 in my pursuit of net zero, but by building in the... principles and characteristics of a credible, holistic net zero strategy, you can really set your organization, your business up for success long term. So yes, they do exist. Any organization can use them already for free, and many organizations around the world are. And over the next year or two, as the net zero standard is developed, and when it is finally launched in public, you will be. as I've said, ahead of the curve and really able to demonstrate the credible high-impact work that you're doing to achieve net zero, because we know that the ultimate standard will look in large part like the guidelines because they are being used to inform the ultimate standard that's being developed with them as a foundation.
Speaker #0
And what would you reply to a business who... doesn't really want to set up this kind of standards? I mean, if you had like the possibility to say whatever you want to do this kind of business, what would you tell them?
Speaker #1
I would say that it is in your best interest to have a net zero strategy because this is the direction the world is going and it's ultimately strategic and beneficial for your company. You may have heard, some of your listeners may have heard the term adapt or die, right? Survival of the fittest. In other words, we know that the world is changing, the economy is transitioning. And so if you don't want to be left behind, then you'll have to transition. And in order to be relevant in the future economy and a future society, having a credible net zero strategy is going to be imperative. It's not an option whether or not you want to do that. It's a must do. And so fortunately, there are tools like the ISO net zero guidelines that demystify Okay. what a credible net zero journey can and should look like that are available before you will be penalized by the market and by consumers for not abiding by it, which is going to increasingly happen once again. This tool becomes a formal certifiable standard. So I would say it is in your best interest. It is strategic. Ultimately, it will make your business more sustainable and more profitable if you prioritize this sooner rather than later. Change can be hard. It does take time and resources, but it's only going to take more time and resources if you delay action longer.
Speaker #0
And that's a very nice way to look back to the elections in the U.S. because somehow, well, I've listened to many podcasts and read a lot of articles saying that whatever happens, the companies are trying to get ahead and they are really respecting this kind of standards. and and That makes me personally very hopeful that, I mean, you said that at the beginning that there is so much like, let's say, the political processes can be so heavy and lengthy, etc. But at the same time, you have private actors that are stepping in and they just realize that it's better for them. It's better to be more sustainable. It's better for their employees. It's probably better for the other level of the company culture and to really keep on having, attracting talents and so on. but it's also bad. best, of course, as a consumer to know that the companies are moving in a certain direction and that somehow sustainability is becoming the norm. Isn't that what you are aspiring for?
Speaker #1
No, absolutely. And it's a really good... way to also bring up another piece of recent legislation or policy that is very relevant to this conversation, which is the SEC ruling that just came out in the U.S. that mandates disclosure of emissions and climate action plans. And the impetus for this mandate and the reason that it's happening within the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission, is because it's important information for investors to have. This is the clarity and the information that the market is really grappling with and that investors and consumers will need in order to be well-informed and effective in the market long term. And that's the good news about the election is that no matter what happens, the economy can be a more rational actor and should always be. arguably a more rational actor than voters and then political parties which are still denying climate science. And let me just take this opportunity as an American to say, America, unfortunately, despite its global power and authority position, is the only country on earth where a major political party doubts or denies climate science. And that is absolutely me. insane. And we should all be outraged and completely condemn that that is a stance that is acceptable to have. Very unfortunately, that is the case. And so the outcome of the election will be very consequential for the global transition to net zero and action on climate. But again, the good news is this climate science is not in doubt in any other country, really, in a meaningful way. And the economy and investors increasingly understand that this is an inevitable transition. And when you, again, consider that standards are the fabric of the real economy and they are all being updated to align with climate science, then the economy is going to transition. So it's really just a question of can we do these updates? Can we develop this standard? Can we make these changes fast enough? And once again, I will just use this as a call to action for business owners and organizations that are listening right now. The ISO net zero guidelines already exist. You can already use tools and frameworks out there that are available for free to create your net zero strategy in a credible, holistic way. And again, it's going to de-risk your business and ultimately be really beneficial for your long-term sustainability and growth. So it's not reason to be afraid of the election outcome. It is hopefully reason to be optimistic that the economy is transitioning regardless of what happens in that election.
Speaker #0
That's great. Thank you so much, Sana. I mean, it's also a moment for me to just say that the upcoming episodes will dig a little bit deeper into the practicalities of this kind of tools, the certifications, because we're going to get in the next episode, we're going to get into sustainable clothing. So it's going to be, I never touched upon clothing before, so it's going to be interesting to see how that applies. how these kind of choices, the choice you make on an everyday basis can have an impact and what is the journey of the corporations that decide to embark on this journey. And the following will be really on sustainable finance, but from the energy community point of view. So we are really getting through Energetica, we are getting into these kind of conversations. And I'm really, really, really excited that we had this and really grateful we had this conversation today because I learned so much and now I wonder learn more. And I want to see how this kind of platforms do work in practice. So thank you so much, Anna.
Speaker #1
Thank you again for having me. I really like to say that standards are the most powerful tool that you've never heard of to scale and accelerate the transition. So I'm really grateful for the opportunity to help your listeners learn more about it. And once again, would encourage folks to go to iso.org slash net zero to see the ISO net zero guidelines for yourself. and to start taking action today.
Speaker #0
Yeah, and if they have any further questions, they can offer your offers on LinkedIn. So they should- I am very much on LinkedIn.
Speaker #1
Yes, Shaina Gallagher, please connect with me. I welcome your DMs.
Speaker #0
Especially if you're interested in sea and whales. We love whales here.
Speaker #1
We love whales, exactly. Preferably humpbacks, but I don't discriminate. Any subspecies will do.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Canales, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights, and ideas over more than 40 episodes, and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory. for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears.
Speaker #3
Until next time.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Hosted by Marine Cornelis, Energ’Ethic brings together policymakers, regulators, industry leaders, city practitioners, researchers, and civil society voices to examine what makes energy transitions succeed—or fail—in the real world.

Beyond technology and targets, the podcast focuses on trust, power, consumer rights, digitalisation, and energy justice. Each conversation connects policy and market design with lived experience, unpacking how decisions taken in boardrooms and institutions translate into everyday realities for people and communities.

Energ’Ethic is not about slogans or quick fixes. It is a space for rigorous, grounded conversations about resilience, legitimacy, and the social conditions required for lasting climate and energy strategies.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

Keep up to date with new episodes s=1">straight from your inbox

Support Energ'Ethic on com/Energethic">Patreon

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hello! Passionate about sustainability, energy and climate? You're in the right place. Welcome to Energetik. I'm Maureen Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. They may be activists, scientists, policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. Today we are going to meet Shana Gallagher, the Dynamic Net Zero Engagement Manager at the prestigious British Standards Institution, BSI. With Shana, passion meets purpose in the fight against climate change. She stands at the forefront of a groundbreaking coalition bringing together ISO, the UN Race to Zero campaign, and the UNFCCC Global Innovation Hub. She leads the charge in corporate engagement and the widespread adoption of the ISO Net Zero Guidelines. Her mission, in a nutshell, is to forge credible, ambitious net-zero strategies that significantly slash private sector emissions. In short, she's committed to setting the right benchmarks for climate action. Let's dive into Shanna's journey. Shanna, welcome to Energetic.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Shanna. So, Shanna, what sparked your interest and led you to become deeply involved in climate advocacy somehow in the formulation of net-zero strategies?
Speaker #1
It is a very long story, so I will do my best to keep it short. Thank you so much again for having me on today. I was very fortunate, as so many people who are deeply passionate about the climate crisis are, to grow up in places and environments where I was able to spend a lot of time outdoors and in nature and specifically by the ocean. And I was a big swimmer growing up and had a lot of love for marine life. And... When I was nine years old at a birthday party on the beach, I have a very vivid memory of looking out at the sunlight glistening on the waves and admiring how beautiful the view was, only to realize after several minutes that what I was really seeing was thousands of dead fish floating to the surface and reflecting the sunlight, not just the sunlight glistening off of the waves. And that was the first time at a very early age that I really understood. that human activity could harm the natural ecosystems that I felt so strongly that it was then my duty to protect. And so that very formative early experience led to more realizations of the role that humans are playing in altering and changing our planet and our climate. And there have been many iterations of what That has meant for me in terms of my impact, but ultimately, over the course of my career, it became increasingly clear to me that the climate crisis is in fact a political problem, not a data problem or a social problem. And that previously, the biggest role that I could play, you may be able to tell from the sound of my voice that I'm American, was in driving political change. political will for action on climate in the United States. So for the past seven or eight years of my career, that is the work that I had been doing. And I worked for candidates and for campaigns that had very strong pro-environment, anti-climate change platforms. But ultimately, we certainly don't need to get into the upcoming election in the United States on this podcast. but ultimately I determined that actually leveraging political systems was not the best and most efficient way to make change given the time frame that we have to tackle the climate crisis. And so after about seven years working in politics in the U.S., I made a decision to move over to the private sector, which I believe has a greater potential to reduce emissions within, again, the very short time frame that we have. And I'm very proud to say that I've always made career decisions based on answering the question, what can I do to have the single greatest impact in reducing emissions and tackling the climate crisis? And I fundamentally believe that the work that we're doing at BSI, the British Standards Institution, to help develop the world's first ever formal certifiable net zero standard is the answer right now. And so that is how I came to BSI and to the world of standards, which is generally... somewhat boring and wonky and behind the scenes, but again, is a crucial lever that we can activate in order to scale and accelerate the transition and ultimately save the world. So that is my story and why I'm so excited to help your listeners understand what the role of standards is today.
Speaker #0
That's incredible. And I mean, I don't think that we ever had such a compelling story to start with. So thank you so much, Janelle. And I must say that I totally relate with the love for water and for marine animals as well. uh people who know me know that i'm i have like whales over my place but that's really like i mean we all need the ways to to start with and and i mean that's also such an interesting shift you kind of made from let's say the political sphere to uh the private sector sphere because many uh at least in europe there are still a lot of people who are a little bit kind of uh who have kind of cold feet regarding the private sector possibility of action. But as I said in the introduction, somehow you and the role of ISO is to set the right benchmarks to kind of foster their action. So can you dig a little bit deeper into what those standards are for? And actually, what is the story of this, the organizations, because there are several for standardization?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. First of all, I feel very compelled to say, because we haven't talked about this before, Maureen, that I'm also obsessed with whales. I have a whale bracelet. I have a whale tail tattoo. So we are great minds thinking alike. Whales are majestic and very motivating for both of us. That's very funny. So yes, what is the role of ISO and the history? Very proudly, I would love to tell you, as BSI likes to talk about often, that actually BSI is the oldest and largest national standards body of the 170 standards bodies that are members and participants within the ISO system. And so the precursor organization that became BSI, the British Standards Institution, was formed in 1901. So we've been around for a very long time providing standards, which are essentially just guidance and... rules, voluntary rules, for how industry should proceed in designing and creating and implementing goods and services in a way that will be most efficient and beneficial for society. So BSI is the UK's national standards body, and we are the UK national body or member of ISO, which is the International Standards Organization. I often describe ISO as the new end of standards bodies. That's how your listeners should think about it. So basically every country in the world, for the most part, that participates has a national standards body. The exception is the United States, which has lots of different standards bodies, but they're all represented within ANSI. So that's de facto the U.S. national standards body. In every other case, a country will have just one national standards body. and they all liaise with and talk to and negotiate with each other and develop standards within the international standards system, namely ISO. So that is the structure and the role of standards. There are tens of thousands of standards around the world at both the national and the international level. The role of standards is to provide a set of guidance and definition for what good looks like for any given product or service or sector. And so when I said earlier that this can be quite boring and behind the scenes, we often describe standards as the fabric of the real economy. So there are tens of thousands of standards at work and at play every single day that already are the foundation of a lot of the... trust and accountability and verification in the market. So for example,
Speaker #0
yeah, the sheet of paper, for instance, it's one of those like the things that we can think of like A4, it's like the same.
Speaker #1
It's the same everywhere. Yes. And the reason that we also trust the food that we eat and know it's not going to poison us and we know that the laptop we buy is going to work is because standards underpin those products and services. Again, they are usually voluntary. There are some standards that are mandated by law, but there is more industry buy-in because it helps to achieve credibility and trust in the market when you are abiding by standards and have the certification that comes along with abiding by standards. So different sectors and industries use standards to different degrees, but they historically have been quite... industry and sector specific. And that is what we are trying to change now with this first ever formal certifiable net zero standard, because obviously net zero applies to every sector and industry and the entire economy and all of society needs to transition off of fossil fuels and to net zero. And so that is why leveraging this very powerful, often behind the scenes infrastructure of tens of thousands of standards and tens of thousands of people around the world in basically every country whose job it is to develop and then implement and certify against formal standards will provide a level of accountability and trust that is really lacking in the net zero ecosystem and the net zero governance landscape right now. And I'm sure many of your listeners will already We know that greenwashing, which is when. private sector organizations make claims about their climate action and their net zero action that then are not actually corroborated or based in any real plan is much more easily achievable when there is no clear standard. So we will provide that clear understanding of not only what is a good net zero target, but what is a good credible plan to achieve it. And that is the clarity that the... first ever formal certifiable standard around net zero will bring to the market.
Speaker #0
That's super interesting that you bring this issue of greenwashing forward because the European Parliament recently voted in favor of regulation against really greenwashing and against false green claims. So from what I understand, let's say that the standards, international standards, they are like acting in the background, whereas regulation, they would. give some let's say broader considerations but then the practice it will trickle down to somehow this kind of standards organization to make sure that there are some some taxonomy some way to to talk to each other to make sure that when we talk about something we talk about the same thing we speak the same language we have the same kind of of understanding of the outcomes of the components as well and that when for instance we talk about i don't know bread We talk about something that is made with flour and water and salt, and we are not talking about something that is made with fruit or sugar. I mean, there can be sugar in bread, of course, but it's not something that is made with, let's say, coal. It's not matching with bread, for instance. I mean, I think it's also something that we kind of tend to forget when we focus a lot on regulation, that many, many things are actually already happening and that you complement each other, like the standards are complementing regulation somehow.
Speaker #1
Yes, and I would love to just use that example as a segue to talk about the three primary differences between formal certifiable standards. So those are the standards that are created within the ISO or the BSI system and more voluntary. The word standards is often used, but frameworks or initiatives. And these are the frameworks that have been governing net zero action to date. And that's because, again, there hasn't been a formal certifiable net zero standard yet. There is something called the ISO net zero guidelines already within the ISO system that I'll speak more about later on. and these guidelines are part of the foundation that is in place. forming the development of the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard. But historically, for the past five or 10 years of the climate economy really taking shape, the organizations and frameworks that have been governing net zero action have been primarily led by nonprofit voluntary organizations. And that is wonderful and important because they've mobilized the private sector. but The frameworks and initiatives, to a certain extent, I should say, but the frameworks and initiatives that they have created are different from formal certifiable standards in these three very important ways. So just to speak to the role of regulation, there is a very strong precedent for standards, formal certifiable standards, to inform legislative development in many, many contexts. And the reason for that is actually in large part because of... World Trade Organization law. So within WTO law, it is mandated that as a mechanism to reduce barriers to trade. WTO member countries and policymakers within them have to refer to relevant formal certifiable standards, which often tend to be ISO standards, when they are developing policy relevant to that standard and the issue that it touches on. So from your point of interoperability and streamlining the transition, getting this net zero standard right is going to inform. the net zero legislation that inevitably will emerge in countries around the world in a very important, powerful way. The two other major differences between formal certifiable standards and voluntary initiatives is the global scope of ISO. So I mentioned there are 170 different member bodies and countries within ISO. So that global structure is really going to help scale and accelerate the transition all over the world, which ultimately we really need. This is a global transition. And then there's also a very powerful and important mechanism and infrastructure called the global quality infrastructure at play. So national standards bodies and the international standards organization ISO don't operate in a vacuum. They operate alongside formal assurance bodies. And so in the UK, for example, we have BSI and then we have UCAS. And that binary relationship it. with the UK accreditation body, UCAS, is the binary relationship that's replicated in basically every ISO member country and at the international level, where formal standards are developed. And then folks who work for these accreditation bodies, their job is to go out and train the auditors of the world who then certify and verify against these standards. So ISO standards often come with a regular audit. And again, that accountability mechanism is something that is really lacking from the net zero governance landscape right now, because the voluntary initiatives and the nonprofit organizations that I mentioned, who've done a wonderful job mobilizing the private sector initially to take on the climate crisis, do not have the resources or the capacity to be the global governance mechanism for a global transition. And at the same time, the global quality infrastructure is designed to do exactly that, to provide trust and verification in the market. And so when we can scale and converge and harmonize the really wonderful work that voluntary initiatives like the Science-Based Target Initiative and the Greenhouse Gas Protocol and even ISSB have done to generate these voluntary frameworks for defining various aspects of good net zero action. And we can formalize that within a standard, which will be the first ever formal certifiable standard. It is going to help scale and accelerate the excellent work that they have started in a way that will provide that accountability and verification that is really lacking right now. And ultimately, that is what it will take to ensure that the transition is happening quickly and credibly such that we can avoid. catastrophic climate change and maintain warming to well below two degrees.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's really so interesting because indeed, when you see the non-profit NGO world, they often lack the capacity for enforcement. And it's also something that is always pointed out whenever there is a good regulation coming out that you have this enforcement issue. and yeah And many countries, they don't have enough capacity to go and knock the door of every business and ask if they are actually doing what they should be doing. So, I mean, I wouldn't expect like the quality standards to apply to mom and pop shop, but somehow they do because they are in direct contact with other organizations who actually have to do it. So it's really part of an ecosystem that you can, if I understand correctly, it makes really everything a little bit more smooth and reliable and that actually fosters trust as a consumer, as an end user, but also as a citizen.
Speaker #1
Yes, exactly. And that is part of what we'll get, hopefully, in terms of consumer understanding of net zero and who is taking credible net zero action. Again, when you are abiding by formal certifiable standards, that means you're certified against them. That means you quite literally get, you know, a certificate or an icon or a label that demonstrates your alignment with. ISO standards with BSI standards, you know, any number of formal standards. And that is something that consumers can then look for. And this certifiability, this checking of the box is something that private sector organizations are really hungering for. Because one of the problems that is leading to an action on... the climate crisis is that because the net zero governance landscape is so fragmented and confusing right now, it's often called the alphabet soup of ESG frameworks and initiatives. It's very easy to criticize and it's much harder to celebrate. And so I should make it very clear to your listeners, greenwashing is, it often happens on accident. It's not always sinister. or with malintent that private sector or any organization are saying, let's hoodwink the public and we're going to continue to produce and emit greenhouse gases, but we'll tell everyone we're doing a phenomenal job. I would say that that does happen much more consistently within the fossil fuel industry, but in many other industries, organizations really want to take action. They just don't know how because this net zero. governance landscape of voluntary initiatives is so fragmented and confusing right now. And so this fear of greenwashing accusations has actually led to something called green hushing, where organizations are basically not doing anything because they don't want to be criticized. Or if they are doing something, they're quite quiet and behind the scenes about it. So what this means is if we can get a net zero standard right, that is holistic and credible and includes all of the necessary components of a credible, effective, high-impact, net-zero journey that will actually reduce emissions and facilitate a just transition, then having a check-the-box exercise is a good thing. The market needs to have a mechanism to understand very clearly and consistently who's doing a good job and who isn't. And again, that is something that you rightfully point out is just not. a facet of the resources and capacity that non-profit organizations have inherently, but it is the exact function of the quality infrastructure, the formal international standard system, and the formal international assurance system.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so somehow you act as the sheriff who will just say here or there, there is something that is not working. And I would assume that you also work with consumer organizations, consumer agencies, national consumer agencies to kind of work on improvement because I would suppose that those standards, they need continuous improvement as the world evolves. And if I'm correct, I read somewhere that you were... The ISO was planning on reviewing all of its 24,000 standards to align with the Paris Agreement. So that's a huge job. So how do you make sure you stay up to date? And how does really the work in setting those kind of international benchmarks do work with the multitude of partners you have to deal with?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up that very important. climate change commitment of ISOs. It's called the London Declaration, or it was originally. And what's important to keep in mind here in terms of, yeah, not just the ISO net zero standard, but changing all of the standards to align with Paris climate science, which is what ISO is committed to, as you pointed out through this London Declaration, is once again, if you agree that standards are the fabric of the real economy, tens of thousands of standards underpin the real economy in basically every. geography in every sector to varying degrees, and you also agree that the entire real economy needs to transition to net zero, which we do in order to protect the one planet that we have, then you would also agree that not only do we need a net zero standard that will facilitate the transition in a very clear way in terms of the process for organizations to achieving net zero, but we also need every single other standard that already exists. to be aligned with the transition. So that is exactly the process that the London Declaration has embarked upon updating all of ISO standards to be aligned with Paris Climate Science. And that process combined with developing the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard will really help to activate and leverage this system that we've been talking about for the transition and to ensure that the economy can credibly achieve net zero by 2050 or sooner. And so the question you're essentially asking is, is how does this work? And the role of standards bodies, formal national and international standards bodies, is to once again converge and harmonize best practice. So we, and by we, I mean folks who work for national standards bodies or international standards bodies, there is no, No one person makes up. this system. This is a consensus-based system, but we view our role as converging and harmonizing the best practice that has often already been developed in the market or by non-profit initiatives in the case of net zero. And so the way that the ISO net zero standard will be developed, for example, is through ISO's Climate Change Committee. And once again, these committees and the entire system, they operate sort of like the UN. So... The way ISO standards are developed is that every country that participates has a vote on the relevant ISO committee. So in this case, the ISO Climate Change Committee, which is technically called ISO TC 207. And all of these countries will come together and represent their country interests, but also the industry and issue experts who make up those national standards bodies and those national committees who are then. using best practice that already exists in the market and the needs of their members and their constituents to develop standards. Can you share an example,
Speaker #0
like something really that you've worked on and that has successfully moved to the next phase?
Speaker #1
Well, I think the best example is what is happening now with the conversion of the ISO net zero guidelines into the formal certifiable net zero standard that we've been dancing around. So the guidelines are not yet a formal certifiable standard, but they were developed within the ISO system. So again, consensus-based, over 1,200 stakeholders from over 100 countries participated in this six-month process where you can imagine, if anyone who's listening has seen videos of the UNFCCC negotiations, for example. These meetings did not happen in person, but you can imagine 1,200 stakeholders on an online platform joining Zoom calls, contributing to and then deliberating about the components of a credible net zero strategy and what that includes, which ended up informing the ISO net zero guidelines, which are the first deliverable within the ISO framework that not only define net zero, but define a credible path to achieve it. which includes the seven steps of net zero action. So those are prepare, measure, target, reduce, removals, report, and impact. And now these ISO net zero guidelines, which were published and launched at COP27, are being converted into a net zero standard. And so the way that will work is that again, ISO's Climate Change Committee, which has representatives from all of the member countries and it will meet on a regular basis. to convert the guidelines into a formal certifiable standard. And the other organizations or stakeholders that can participate in that process are international nonprofit organizations, which are joining ISO's Climate Change Committee in order to help ensure that the ultimate standard has the expertise and perspective. that they have spent the past many years developing and honing. So, for example, a lot of the voluntary initiatives that I mentioned, the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, for example, CDP, the Carbon Disclosure Project, have joined ISO's Climate Change Committee as what is called liaison organizations in order to ensure that the best practice that they've developed is embedded in the ultimate net zero standard. So, once again, the role of standards is not to recreate the wheel. It's not to place any additional burden on organizations or private sector actors. It's to converge and harmonize the fragmented and often disparate landscape of voluntary frameworks in one place so that it's very clear for industry and for organizations what having a credible net zero strategy looks like.
Speaker #0
When you were talking, I didn't mind the director d'orchestre, the chef d'orchestre, the person who guides an orchestra, the conductor, I think you say that in English? Yes, yeah. Yeah, the conductor for the various instruments who actually play the same melody and it sounds very much like that. Exactly. Yeah, I was at Co-op in Dubai and I found it really pretty fascinating, but also totally overwhelming, the quantity of people who are attending. And I must say that I totally admire the capacity of organizing a potential chaos. Also, because I would imagine that you need a lot of translators and interpreters to make sure that everybody speaks the same language and agrees on certain rules. and how does the like the decision-making work at the end of the day. And I guess that's such a, I mean, I'm discovering along with the listeners, I think. So how does that harmonization, how does that, let's say, construction of the melody, how does it work in practice?
Speaker #1
Yes, no, absolutely. That's a really good metaphor. Thank you for raising it. And it can get messy. I'm sure you can imagine the process with those 1,200 stakeholders that I mentioned for developing the ISO net zero guidelines, tears were shed a non-zero number of times by frustrated people trying to agree and find alignment. But ultimately, again, that is the real value of the ISO system. And why standards are so trusted, it's because they are consensus-based. So unlike the UN, where agreements need to be unanimously agreed upon. ISO standards need 80% agreement in order to be formalized and finalized. So the way it works is that every member country has a vote, and the vote happens, and 80% agreement will allow the standard to be formally adopted and finalized, and therefore the market to start using it. So it is a transition in its own right. Having this system, which over the past many decades has happened usually in person, moving to online and the facilitation of standards committees happening by the committee managers and the experts that they convene, again, is changing in its own right. But I'm sure all of us have been on many Zoom calls these days and can understand how a project. could come together from various stakeholders all over the world. The translation element is certainly difficult. We do have real-time translation that happens for most meetings at this point. And ISO resources are all translated into six languages by default. Any standard will be available in six languages. I believe it's English, French. Chinese, Russian, Japanese, and I am forgetting the sixth one, which is embarrassing. You should certainly go. Did I not say Spanish? Yeah, definitely Spanish. But if you go, if you're a listener, go to iso.org slash net zero. That is where the ISO net zero guidelines can be downloaded for free in any of those six languages. And it is just a sometimes messy process of time zone and language coordination, but ultimately... It has worked so far and will continue to work for the purposes of developing, again, the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard to provide that clarity and demystification of credible net zero action that we so urgently need.
Speaker #0
So if a business or a business owner who is listening to this podcast wants to implement this kind of standards, like net zero standards within the organization, what should they do?
Speaker #1
So glad you asked. And I just said the answer, but I will say it again now. The ISO net zero guidelines are free to use and download at iso.org slash net zero. And they are already being used by organizations around the world to create either from scratch or to enhance credible net zero strategies. And that is my job at BSI. I work. with companies that want to use the guidelines to create and enhance and develop their own net zero journey in line with global best practice. So for example, General Motors is a company that we work with very closely that has chosen to adopt the guidelines to develop their own net zero strategy This is a tool that you absolutely can and should use now, even though it's not yet a formal certifiable standard. And the reason to use it now is because you can de-risk your net zero strategy. We know that what's included in the guidelines, these seven steps of net zero action, preparing, measuring, targeting, so setting a net zero target, reducing, so actually mitigating and reducing emissions, which is, of course, in many ways, the most important part. deep decarbonization, what that means for removals, how often to report, and the impact or systems approach that is required to deliver net zero. These are all aspects of a credible net zero strategy that even though a formal certifiable standard doesn't exist yet, we know that it will. So if you adopt the guidelines and use them to create your strategy now, you'll be ahead of the curve. You can really make a name for yourself and prevent. any future consequences for not aligning with the standard once it is out in the market. And once again, you can help to demonstrate to other organizations around the world what best practice looks like and what that means for you. The reality is no organization on earth can credibly say, I know exactly what every day is going to be looking like between now and 2050 in my pursuit of net zero, but by building in the... principles and characteristics of a credible, holistic net zero strategy, you can really set your organization, your business up for success long term. So yes, they do exist. Any organization can use them already for free, and many organizations around the world are. And over the next year or two, as the net zero standard is developed, and when it is finally launched in public, you will be. as I've said, ahead of the curve and really able to demonstrate the credible high-impact work that you're doing to achieve net zero, because we know that the ultimate standard will look in large part like the guidelines because they are being used to inform the ultimate standard that's being developed with them as a foundation.
Speaker #0
And what would you reply to a business who... doesn't really want to set up this kind of standards? I mean, if you had like the possibility to say whatever you want to do this kind of business, what would you tell them?
Speaker #1
I would say that it is in your best interest to have a net zero strategy because this is the direction the world is going and it's ultimately strategic and beneficial for your company. You may have heard, some of your listeners may have heard the term adapt or die, right? Survival of the fittest. In other words, we know that the world is changing, the economy is transitioning. And so if you don't want to be left behind, then you'll have to transition. And in order to be relevant in the future economy and a future society, having a credible net zero strategy is going to be imperative. It's not an option whether or not you want to do that. It's a must do. And so fortunately, there are tools like the ISO net zero guidelines that demystify Okay. what a credible net zero journey can and should look like that are available before you will be penalized by the market and by consumers for not abiding by it, which is going to increasingly happen once again. This tool becomes a formal certifiable standard. So I would say it is in your best interest. It is strategic. Ultimately, it will make your business more sustainable and more profitable if you prioritize this sooner rather than later. Change can be hard. It does take time and resources, but it's only going to take more time and resources if you delay action longer.
Speaker #0
And that's a very nice way to look back to the elections in the U.S. because somehow, well, I've listened to many podcasts and read a lot of articles saying that whatever happens, the companies are trying to get ahead and they are really respecting this kind of standards. and and That makes me personally very hopeful that, I mean, you said that at the beginning that there is so much like, let's say, the political processes can be so heavy and lengthy, etc. But at the same time, you have private actors that are stepping in and they just realize that it's better for them. It's better to be more sustainable. It's better for their employees. It's probably better for the other level of the company culture and to really keep on having, attracting talents and so on. but it's also bad. best, of course, as a consumer to know that the companies are moving in a certain direction and that somehow sustainability is becoming the norm. Isn't that what you are aspiring for?
Speaker #1
No, absolutely. And it's a really good... way to also bring up another piece of recent legislation or policy that is very relevant to this conversation, which is the SEC ruling that just came out in the U.S. that mandates disclosure of emissions and climate action plans. And the impetus for this mandate and the reason that it's happening within the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission, is because it's important information for investors to have. This is the clarity and the information that the market is really grappling with and that investors and consumers will need in order to be well-informed and effective in the market long term. And that's the good news about the election is that no matter what happens, the economy can be a more rational actor and should always be. arguably a more rational actor than voters and then political parties which are still denying climate science. And let me just take this opportunity as an American to say, America, unfortunately, despite its global power and authority position, is the only country on earth where a major political party doubts or denies climate science. And that is absolutely me. insane. And we should all be outraged and completely condemn that that is a stance that is acceptable to have. Very unfortunately, that is the case. And so the outcome of the election will be very consequential for the global transition to net zero and action on climate. But again, the good news is this climate science is not in doubt in any other country, really, in a meaningful way. And the economy and investors increasingly understand that this is an inevitable transition. And when you, again, consider that standards are the fabric of the real economy and they are all being updated to align with climate science, then the economy is going to transition. So it's really just a question of can we do these updates? Can we develop this standard? Can we make these changes fast enough? And once again, I will just use this as a call to action for business owners and organizations that are listening right now. The ISO net zero guidelines already exist. You can already use tools and frameworks out there that are available for free to create your net zero strategy in a credible, holistic way. And again, it's going to de-risk your business and ultimately be really beneficial for your long-term sustainability and growth. So it's not reason to be afraid of the election outcome. It is hopefully reason to be optimistic that the economy is transitioning regardless of what happens in that election.
Speaker #0
That's great. Thank you so much, Sana. I mean, it's also a moment for me to just say that the upcoming episodes will dig a little bit deeper into the practicalities of this kind of tools, the certifications, because we're going to get in the next episode, we're going to get into sustainable clothing. So it's going to be, I never touched upon clothing before, so it's going to be interesting to see how that applies. how these kind of choices, the choice you make on an everyday basis can have an impact and what is the journey of the corporations that decide to embark on this journey. And the following will be really on sustainable finance, but from the energy community point of view. So we are really getting through Energetica, we are getting into these kind of conversations. And I'm really, really, really excited that we had this and really grateful we had this conversation today because I learned so much and now I wonder learn more. And I want to see how this kind of platforms do work in practice. So thank you so much, Anna.
Speaker #1
Thank you again for having me. I really like to say that standards are the most powerful tool that you've never heard of to scale and accelerate the transition. So I'm really grateful for the opportunity to help your listeners learn more about it. And once again, would encourage folks to go to iso.org slash net zero to see the ISO net zero guidelines for yourself. and to start taking action today.
Speaker #0
Yeah, and if they have any further questions, they can offer your offers on LinkedIn. So they should- I am very much on LinkedIn.
Speaker #1
Yes, Shaina Gallagher, please connect with me. I welcome your DMs.
Speaker #0
Especially if you're interested in sea and whales. We love whales here.
Speaker #1
We love whales, exactly. Preferably humpbacks, but I don't discriminate. Any subspecies will do.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Canales, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights, and ideas over more than 40 episodes, and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory. for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears.
Speaker #3
Until next time.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

You may also like

Description

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

Keep up to date with new episodes s=1">straight from your inbox

Support Energ'Ethic on com/Energethic">Patreon

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hello! Passionate about sustainability, energy and climate? You're in the right place. Welcome to Energetik. I'm Maureen Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. They may be activists, scientists, policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. Today we are going to meet Shana Gallagher, the Dynamic Net Zero Engagement Manager at the prestigious British Standards Institution, BSI. With Shana, passion meets purpose in the fight against climate change. She stands at the forefront of a groundbreaking coalition bringing together ISO, the UN Race to Zero campaign, and the UNFCCC Global Innovation Hub. She leads the charge in corporate engagement and the widespread adoption of the ISO Net Zero Guidelines. Her mission, in a nutshell, is to forge credible, ambitious net-zero strategies that significantly slash private sector emissions. In short, she's committed to setting the right benchmarks for climate action. Let's dive into Shanna's journey. Shanna, welcome to Energetic.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Shanna. So, Shanna, what sparked your interest and led you to become deeply involved in climate advocacy somehow in the formulation of net-zero strategies?
Speaker #1
It is a very long story, so I will do my best to keep it short. Thank you so much again for having me on today. I was very fortunate, as so many people who are deeply passionate about the climate crisis are, to grow up in places and environments where I was able to spend a lot of time outdoors and in nature and specifically by the ocean. And I was a big swimmer growing up and had a lot of love for marine life. And... When I was nine years old at a birthday party on the beach, I have a very vivid memory of looking out at the sunlight glistening on the waves and admiring how beautiful the view was, only to realize after several minutes that what I was really seeing was thousands of dead fish floating to the surface and reflecting the sunlight, not just the sunlight glistening off of the waves. And that was the first time at a very early age that I really understood. that human activity could harm the natural ecosystems that I felt so strongly that it was then my duty to protect. And so that very formative early experience led to more realizations of the role that humans are playing in altering and changing our planet and our climate. And there have been many iterations of what That has meant for me in terms of my impact, but ultimately, over the course of my career, it became increasingly clear to me that the climate crisis is in fact a political problem, not a data problem or a social problem. And that previously, the biggest role that I could play, you may be able to tell from the sound of my voice that I'm American, was in driving political change. political will for action on climate in the United States. So for the past seven or eight years of my career, that is the work that I had been doing. And I worked for candidates and for campaigns that had very strong pro-environment, anti-climate change platforms. But ultimately, we certainly don't need to get into the upcoming election in the United States on this podcast. but ultimately I determined that actually leveraging political systems was not the best and most efficient way to make change given the time frame that we have to tackle the climate crisis. And so after about seven years working in politics in the U.S., I made a decision to move over to the private sector, which I believe has a greater potential to reduce emissions within, again, the very short time frame that we have. And I'm very proud to say that I've always made career decisions based on answering the question, what can I do to have the single greatest impact in reducing emissions and tackling the climate crisis? And I fundamentally believe that the work that we're doing at BSI, the British Standards Institution, to help develop the world's first ever formal certifiable net zero standard is the answer right now. And so that is how I came to BSI and to the world of standards, which is generally... somewhat boring and wonky and behind the scenes, but again, is a crucial lever that we can activate in order to scale and accelerate the transition and ultimately save the world. So that is my story and why I'm so excited to help your listeners understand what the role of standards is today.
Speaker #0
That's incredible. And I mean, I don't think that we ever had such a compelling story to start with. So thank you so much, Janelle. And I must say that I totally relate with the love for water and for marine animals as well. uh people who know me know that i'm i have like whales over my place but that's really like i mean we all need the ways to to start with and and i mean that's also such an interesting shift you kind of made from let's say the political sphere to uh the private sector sphere because many uh at least in europe there are still a lot of people who are a little bit kind of uh who have kind of cold feet regarding the private sector possibility of action. But as I said in the introduction, somehow you and the role of ISO is to set the right benchmarks to kind of foster their action. So can you dig a little bit deeper into what those standards are for? And actually, what is the story of this, the organizations, because there are several for standardization?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. First of all, I feel very compelled to say, because we haven't talked about this before, Maureen, that I'm also obsessed with whales. I have a whale bracelet. I have a whale tail tattoo. So we are great minds thinking alike. Whales are majestic and very motivating for both of us. That's very funny. So yes, what is the role of ISO and the history? Very proudly, I would love to tell you, as BSI likes to talk about often, that actually BSI is the oldest and largest national standards body of the 170 standards bodies that are members and participants within the ISO system. And so the precursor organization that became BSI, the British Standards Institution, was formed in 1901. So we've been around for a very long time providing standards, which are essentially just guidance and... rules, voluntary rules, for how industry should proceed in designing and creating and implementing goods and services in a way that will be most efficient and beneficial for society. So BSI is the UK's national standards body, and we are the UK national body or member of ISO, which is the International Standards Organization. I often describe ISO as the new end of standards bodies. That's how your listeners should think about it. So basically every country in the world, for the most part, that participates has a national standards body. The exception is the United States, which has lots of different standards bodies, but they're all represented within ANSI. So that's de facto the U.S. national standards body. In every other case, a country will have just one national standards body. and they all liaise with and talk to and negotiate with each other and develop standards within the international standards system, namely ISO. So that is the structure and the role of standards. There are tens of thousands of standards around the world at both the national and the international level. The role of standards is to provide a set of guidance and definition for what good looks like for any given product or service or sector. And so when I said earlier that this can be quite boring and behind the scenes, we often describe standards as the fabric of the real economy. So there are tens of thousands of standards at work and at play every single day that already are the foundation of a lot of the... trust and accountability and verification in the market. So for example,
Speaker #0
yeah, the sheet of paper, for instance, it's one of those like the things that we can think of like A4, it's like the same.
Speaker #1
It's the same everywhere. Yes. And the reason that we also trust the food that we eat and know it's not going to poison us and we know that the laptop we buy is going to work is because standards underpin those products and services. Again, they are usually voluntary. There are some standards that are mandated by law, but there is more industry buy-in because it helps to achieve credibility and trust in the market when you are abiding by standards and have the certification that comes along with abiding by standards. So different sectors and industries use standards to different degrees, but they historically have been quite... industry and sector specific. And that is what we are trying to change now with this first ever formal certifiable net zero standard, because obviously net zero applies to every sector and industry and the entire economy and all of society needs to transition off of fossil fuels and to net zero. And so that is why leveraging this very powerful, often behind the scenes infrastructure of tens of thousands of standards and tens of thousands of people around the world in basically every country whose job it is to develop and then implement and certify against formal standards will provide a level of accountability and trust that is really lacking in the net zero ecosystem and the net zero governance landscape right now. And I'm sure many of your listeners will already We know that greenwashing, which is when. private sector organizations make claims about their climate action and their net zero action that then are not actually corroborated or based in any real plan is much more easily achievable when there is no clear standard. So we will provide that clear understanding of not only what is a good net zero target, but what is a good credible plan to achieve it. And that is the clarity that the... first ever formal certifiable standard around net zero will bring to the market.
Speaker #0
That's super interesting that you bring this issue of greenwashing forward because the European Parliament recently voted in favor of regulation against really greenwashing and against false green claims. So from what I understand, let's say that the standards, international standards, they are like acting in the background, whereas regulation, they would. give some let's say broader considerations but then the practice it will trickle down to somehow this kind of standards organization to make sure that there are some some taxonomy some way to to talk to each other to make sure that when we talk about something we talk about the same thing we speak the same language we have the same kind of of understanding of the outcomes of the components as well and that when for instance we talk about i don't know bread We talk about something that is made with flour and water and salt, and we are not talking about something that is made with fruit or sugar. I mean, there can be sugar in bread, of course, but it's not something that is made with, let's say, coal. It's not matching with bread, for instance. I mean, I think it's also something that we kind of tend to forget when we focus a lot on regulation, that many, many things are actually already happening and that you complement each other, like the standards are complementing regulation somehow.
Speaker #1
Yes, and I would love to just use that example as a segue to talk about the three primary differences between formal certifiable standards. So those are the standards that are created within the ISO or the BSI system and more voluntary. The word standards is often used, but frameworks or initiatives. And these are the frameworks that have been governing net zero action to date. And that's because, again, there hasn't been a formal certifiable net zero standard yet. There is something called the ISO net zero guidelines already within the ISO system that I'll speak more about later on. and these guidelines are part of the foundation that is in place. forming the development of the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard. But historically, for the past five or 10 years of the climate economy really taking shape, the organizations and frameworks that have been governing net zero action have been primarily led by nonprofit voluntary organizations. And that is wonderful and important because they've mobilized the private sector. but The frameworks and initiatives, to a certain extent, I should say, but the frameworks and initiatives that they have created are different from formal certifiable standards in these three very important ways. So just to speak to the role of regulation, there is a very strong precedent for standards, formal certifiable standards, to inform legislative development in many, many contexts. And the reason for that is actually in large part because of... World Trade Organization law. So within WTO law, it is mandated that as a mechanism to reduce barriers to trade. WTO member countries and policymakers within them have to refer to relevant formal certifiable standards, which often tend to be ISO standards, when they are developing policy relevant to that standard and the issue that it touches on. So from your point of interoperability and streamlining the transition, getting this net zero standard right is going to inform. the net zero legislation that inevitably will emerge in countries around the world in a very important, powerful way. The two other major differences between formal certifiable standards and voluntary initiatives is the global scope of ISO. So I mentioned there are 170 different member bodies and countries within ISO. So that global structure is really going to help scale and accelerate the transition all over the world, which ultimately we really need. This is a global transition. And then there's also a very powerful and important mechanism and infrastructure called the global quality infrastructure at play. So national standards bodies and the international standards organization ISO don't operate in a vacuum. They operate alongside formal assurance bodies. And so in the UK, for example, we have BSI and then we have UCAS. And that binary relationship it. with the UK accreditation body, UCAS, is the binary relationship that's replicated in basically every ISO member country and at the international level, where formal standards are developed. And then folks who work for these accreditation bodies, their job is to go out and train the auditors of the world who then certify and verify against these standards. So ISO standards often come with a regular audit. And again, that accountability mechanism is something that is really lacking from the net zero governance landscape right now, because the voluntary initiatives and the nonprofit organizations that I mentioned, who've done a wonderful job mobilizing the private sector initially to take on the climate crisis, do not have the resources or the capacity to be the global governance mechanism for a global transition. And at the same time, the global quality infrastructure is designed to do exactly that, to provide trust and verification in the market. And so when we can scale and converge and harmonize the really wonderful work that voluntary initiatives like the Science-Based Target Initiative and the Greenhouse Gas Protocol and even ISSB have done to generate these voluntary frameworks for defining various aspects of good net zero action. And we can formalize that within a standard, which will be the first ever formal certifiable standard. It is going to help scale and accelerate the excellent work that they have started in a way that will provide that accountability and verification that is really lacking right now. And ultimately, that is what it will take to ensure that the transition is happening quickly and credibly such that we can avoid. catastrophic climate change and maintain warming to well below two degrees.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's really so interesting because indeed, when you see the non-profit NGO world, they often lack the capacity for enforcement. And it's also something that is always pointed out whenever there is a good regulation coming out that you have this enforcement issue. and yeah And many countries, they don't have enough capacity to go and knock the door of every business and ask if they are actually doing what they should be doing. So, I mean, I wouldn't expect like the quality standards to apply to mom and pop shop, but somehow they do because they are in direct contact with other organizations who actually have to do it. So it's really part of an ecosystem that you can, if I understand correctly, it makes really everything a little bit more smooth and reliable and that actually fosters trust as a consumer, as an end user, but also as a citizen.
Speaker #1
Yes, exactly. And that is part of what we'll get, hopefully, in terms of consumer understanding of net zero and who is taking credible net zero action. Again, when you are abiding by formal certifiable standards, that means you're certified against them. That means you quite literally get, you know, a certificate or an icon or a label that demonstrates your alignment with. ISO standards with BSI standards, you know, any number of formal standards. And that is something that consumers can then look for. And this certifiability, this checking of the box is something that private sector organizations are really hungering for. Because one of the problems that is leading to an action on... the climate crisis is that because the net zero governance landscape is so fragmented and confusing right now, it's often called the alphabet soup of ESG frameworks and initiatives. It's very easy to criticize and it's much harder to celebrate. And so I should make it very clear to your listeners, greenwashing is, it often happens on accident. It's not always sinister. or with malintent that private sector or any organization are saying, let's hoodwink the public and we're going to continue to produce and emit greenhouse gases, but we'll tell everyone we're doing a phenomenal job. I would say that that does happen much more consistently within the fossil fuel industry, but in many other industries, organizations really want to take action. They just don't know how because this net zero. governance landscape of voluntary initiatives is so fragmented and confusing right now. And so this fear of greenwashing accusations has actually led to something called green hushing, where organizations are basically not doing anything because they don't want to be criticized. Or if they are doing something, they're quite quiet and behind the scenes about it. So what this means is if we can get a net zero standard right, that is holistic and credible and includes all of the necessary components of a credible, effective, high-impact, net-zero journey that will actually reduce emissions and facilitate a just transition, then having a check-the-box exercise is a good thing. The market needs to have a mechanism to understand very clearly and consistently who's doing a good job and who isn't. And again, that is something that you rightfully point out is just not. a facet of the resources and capacity that non-profit organizations have inherently, but it is the exact function of the quality infrastructure, the formal international standard system, and the formal international assurance system.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so somehow you act as the sheriff who will just say here or there, there is something that is not working. And I would assume that you also work with consumer organizations, consumer agencies, national consumer agencies to kind of work on improvement because I would suppose that those standards, they need continuous improvement as the world evolves. And if I'm correct, I read somewhere that you were... The ISO was planning on reviewing all of its 24,000 standards to align with the Paris Agreement. So that's a huge job. So how do you make sure you stay up to date? And how does really the work in setting those kind of international benchmarks do work with the multitude of partners you have to deal with?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up that very important. climate change commitment of ISOs. It's called the London Declaration, or it was originally. And what's important to keep in mind here in terms of, yeah, not just the ISO net zero standard, but changing all of the standards to align with Paris climate science, which is what ISO is committed to, as you pointed out through this London Declaration, is once again, if you agree that standards are the fabric of the real economy, tens of thousands of standards underpin the real economy in basically every. geography in every sector to varying degrees, and you also agree that the entire real economy needs to transition to net zero, which we do in order to protect the one planet that we have, then you would also agree that not only do we need a net zero standard that will facilitate the transition in a very clear way in terms of the process for organizations to achieving net zero, but we also need every single other standard that already exists. to be aligned with the transition. So that is exactly the process that the London Declaration has embarked upon updating all of ISO standards to be aligned with Paris Climate Science. And that process combined with developing the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard will really help to activate and leverage this system that we've been talking about for the transition and to ensure that the economy can credibly achieve net zero by 2050 or sooner. And so the question you're essentially asking is, is how does this work? And the role of standards bodies, formal national and international standards bodies, is to once again converge and harmonize best practice. So we, and by we, I mean folks who work for national standards bodies or international standards bodies, there is no, No one person makes up. this system. This is a consensus-based system, but we view our role as converging and harmonizing the best practice that has often already been developed in the market or by non-profit initiatives in the case of net zero. And so the way that the ISO net zero standard will be developed, for example, is through ISO's Climate Change Committee. And once again, these committees and the entire system, they operate sort of like the UN. So... The way ISO standards are developed is that every country that participates has a vote on the relevant ISO committee. So in this case, the ISO Climate Change Committee, which is technically called ISO TC 207. And all of these countries will come together and represent their country interests, but also the industry and issue experts who make up those national standards bodies and those national committees who are then. using best practice that already exists in the market and the needs of their members and their constituents to develop standards. Can you share an example,
Speaker #0
like something really that you've worked on and that has successfully moved to the next phase?
Speaker #1
Well, I think the best example is what is happening now with the conversion of the ISO net zero guidelines into the formal certifiable net zero standard that we've been dancing around. So the guidelines are not yet a formal certifiable standard, but they were developed within the ISO system. So again, consensus-based, over 1,200 stakeholders from over 100 countries participated in this six-month process where you can imagine, if anyone who's listening has seen videos of the UNFCCC negotiations, for example. These meetings did not happen in person, but you can imagine 1,200 stakeholders on an online platform joining Zoom calls, contributing to and then deliberating about the components of a credible net zero strategy and what that includes, which ended up informing the ISO net zero guidelines, which are the first deliverable within the ISO framework that not only define net zero, but define a credible path to achieve it. which includes the seven steps of net zero action. So those are prepare, measure, target, reduce, removals, report, and impact. And now these ISO net zero guidelines, which were published and launched at COP27, are being converted into a net zero standard. And so the way that will work is that again, ISO's Climate Change Committee, which has representatives from all of the member countries and it will meet on a regular basis. to convert the guidelines into a formal certifiable standard. And the other organizations or stakeholders that can participate in that process are international nonprofit organizations, which are joining ISO's Climate Change Committee in order to help ensure that the ultimate standard has the expertise and perspective. that they have spent the past many years developing and honing. So, for example, a lot of the voluntary initiatives that I mentioned, the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, for example, CDP, the Carbon Disclosure Project, have joined ISO's Climate Change Committee as what is called liaison organizations in order to ensure that the best practice that they've developed is embedded in the ultimate net zero standard. So, once again, the role of standards is not to recreate the wheel. It's not to place any additional burden on organizations or private sector actors. It's to converge and harmonize the fragmented and often disparate landscape of voluntary frameworks in one place so that it's very clear for industry and for organizations what having a credible net zero strategy looks like.
Speaker #0
When you were talking, I didn't mind the director d'orchestre, the chef d'orchestre, the person who guides an orchestra, the conductor, I think you say that in English? Yes, yeah. Yeah, the conductor for the various instruments who actually play the same melody and it sounds very much like that. Exactly. Yeah, I was at Co-op in Dubai and I found it really pretty fascinating, but also totally overwhelming, the quantity of people who are attending. And I must say that I totally admire the capacity of organizing a potential chaos. Also, because I would imagine that you need a lot of translators and interpreters to make sure that everybody speaks the same language and agrees on certain rules. and how does the like the decision-making work at the end of the day. And I guess that's such a, I mean, I'm discovering along with the listeners, I think. So how does that harmonization, how does that, let's say, construction of the melody, how does it work in practice?
Speaker #1
Yes, no, absolutely. That's a really good metaphor. Thank you for raising it. And it can get messy. I'm sure you can imagine the process with those 1,200 stakeholders that I mentioned for developing the ISO net zero guidelines, tears were shed a non-zero number of times by frustrated people trying to agree and find alignment. But ultimately, again, that is the real value of the ISO system. And why standards are so trusted, it's because they are consensus-based. So unlike the UN, where agreements need to be unanimously agreed upon. ISO standards need 80% agreement in order to be formalized and finalized. So the way it works is that every member country has a vote, and the vote happens, and 80% agreement will allow the standard to be formally adopted and finalized, and therefore the market to start using it. So it is a transition in its own right. Having this system, which over the past many decades has happened usually in person, moving to online and the facilitation of standards committees happening by the committee managers and the experts that they convene, again, is changing in its own right. But I'm sure all of us have been on many Zoom calls these days and can understand how a project. could come together from various stakeholders all over the world. The translation element is certainly difficult. We do have real-time translation that happens for most meetings at this point. And ISO resources are all translated into six languages by default. Any standard will be available in six languages. I believe it's English, French. Chinese, Russian, Japanese, and I am forgetting the sixth one, which is embarrassing. You should certainly go. Did I not say Spanish? Yeah, definitely Spanish. But if you go, if you're a listener, go to iso.org slash net zero. That is where the ISO net zero guidelines can be downloaded for free in any of those six languages. And it is just a sometimes messy process of time zone and language coordination, but ultimately... It has worked so far and will continue to work for the purposes of developing, again, the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard to provide that clarity and demystification of credible net zero action that we so urgently need.
Speaker #0
So if a business or a business owner who is listening to this podcast wants to implement this kind of standards, like net zero standards within the organization, what should they do?
Speaker #1
So glad you asked. And I just said the answer, but I will say it again now. The ISO net zero guidelines are free to use and download at iso.org slash net zero. And they are already being used by organizations around the world to create either from scratch or to enhance credible net zero strategies. And that is my job at BSI. I work. with companies that want to use the guidelines to create and enhance and develop their own net zero journey in line with global best practice. So for example, General Motors is a company that we work with very closely that has chosen to adopt the guidelines to develop their own net zero strategy This is a tool that you absolutely can and should use now, even though it's not yet a formal certifiable standard. And the reason to use it now is because you can de-risk your net zero strategy. We know that what's included in the guidelines, these seven steps of net zero action, preparing, measuring, targeting, so setting a net zero target, reducing, so actually mitigating and reducing emissions, which is, of course, in many ways, the most important part. deep decarbonization, what that means for removals, how often to report, and the impact or systems approach that is required to deliver net zero. These are all aspects of a credible net zero strategy that even though a formal certifiable standard doesn't exist yet, we know that it will. So if you adopt the guidelines and use them to create your strategy now, you'll be ahead of the curve. You can really make a name for yourself and prevent. any future consequences for not aligning with the standard once it is out in the market. And once again, you can help to demonstrate to other organizations around the world what best practice looks like and what that means for you. The reality is no organization on earth can credibly say, I know exactly what every day is going to be looking like between now and 2050 in my pursuit of net zero, but by building in the... principles and characteristics of a credible, holistic net zero strategy, you can really set your organization, your business up for success long term. So yes, they do exist. Any organization can use them already for free, and many organizations around the world are. And over the next year or two, as the net zero standard is developed, and when it is finally launched in public, you will be. as I've said, ahead of the curve and really able to demonstrate the credible high-impact work that you're doing to achieve net zero, because we know that the ultimate standard will look in large part like the guidelines because they are being used to inform the ultimate standard that's being developed with them as a foundation.
Speaker #0
And what would you reply to a business who... doesn't really want to set up this kind of standards? I mean, if you had like the possibility to say whatever you want to do this kind of business, what would you tell them?
Speaker #1
I would say that it is in your best interest to have a net zero strategy because this is the direction the world is going and it's ultimately strategic and beneficial for your company. You may have heard, some of your listeners may have heard the term adapt or die, right? Survival of the fittest. In other words, we know that the world is changing, the economy is transitioning. And so if you don't want to be left behind, then you'll have to transition. And in order to be relevant in the future economy and a future society, having a credible net zero strategy is going to be imperative. It's not an option whether or not you want to do that. It's a must do. And so fortunately, there are tools like the ISO net zero guidelines that demystify Okay. what a credible net zero journey can and should look like that are available before you will be penalized by the market and by consumers for not abiding by it, which is going to increasingly happen once again. This tool becomes a formal certifiable standard. So I would say it is in your best interest. It is strategic. Ultimately, it will make your business more sustainable and more profitable if you prioritize this sooner rather than later. Change can be hard. It does take time and resources, but it's only going to take more time and resources if you delay action longer.
Speaker #0
And that's a very nice way to look back to the elections in the U.S. because somehow, well, I've listened to many podcasts and read a lot of articles saying that whatever happens, the companies are trying to get ahead and they are really respecting this kind of standards. and and That makes me personally very hopeful that, I mean, you said that at the beginning that there is so much like, let's say, the political processes can be so heavy and lengthy, etc. But at the same time, you have private actors that are stepping in and they just realize that it's better for them. It's better to be more sustainable. It's better for their employees. It's probably better for the other level of the company culture and to really keep on having, attracting talents and so on. but it's also bad. best, of course, as a consumer to know that the companies are moving in a certain direction and that somehow sustainability is becoming the norm. Isn't that what you are aspiring for?
Speaker #1
No, absolutely. And it's a really good... way to also bring up another piece of recent legislation or policy that is very relevant to this conversation, which is the SEC ruling that just came out in the U.S. that mandates disclosure of emissions and climate action plans. And the impetus for this mandate and the reason that it's happening within the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission, is because it's important information for investors to have. This is the clarity and the information that the market is really grappling with and that investors and consumers will need in order to be well-informed and effective in the market long term. And that's the good news about the election is that no matter what happens, the economy can be a more rational actor and should always be. arguably a more rational actor than voters and then political parties which are still denying climate science. And let me just take this opportunity as an American to say, America, unfortunately, despite its global power and authority position, is the only country on earth where a major political party doubts or denies climate science. And that is absolutely me. insane. And we should all be outraged and completely condemn that that is a stance that is acceptable to have. Very unfortunately, that is the case. And so the outcome of the election will be very consequential for the global transition to net zero and action on climate. But again, the good news is this climate science is not in doubt in any other country, really, in a meaningful way. And the economy and investors increasingly understand that this is an inevitable transition. And when you, again, consider that standards are the fabric of the real economy and they are all being updated to align with climate science, then the economy is going to transition. So it's really just a question of can we do these updates? Can we develop this standard? Can we make these changes fast enough? And once again, I will just use this as a call to action for business owners and organizations that are listening right now. The ISO net zero guidelines already exist. You can already use tools and frameworks out there that are available for free to create your net zero strategy in a credible, holistic way. And again, it's going to de-risk your business and ultimately be really beneficial for your long-term sustainability and growth. So it's not reason to be afraid of the election outcome. It is hopefully reason to be optimistic that the economy is transitioning regardless of what happens in that election.
Speaker #0
That's great. Thank you so much, Sana. I mean, it's also a moment for me to just say that the upcoming episodes will dig a little bit deeper into the practicalities of this kind of tools, the certifications, because we're going to get in the next episode, we're going to get into sustainable clothing. So it's going to be, I never touched upon clothing before, so it's going to be interesting to see how that applies. how these kind of choices, the choice you make on an everyday basis can have an impact and what is the journey of the corporations that decide to embark on this journey. And the following will be really on sustainable finance, but from the energy community point of view. So we are really getting through Energetica, we are getting into these kind of conversations. And I'm really, really, really excited that we had this and really grateful we had this conversation today because I learned so much and now I wonder learn more. And I want to see how this kind of platforms do work in practice. So thank you so much, Anna.
Speaker #1
Thank you again for having me. I really like to say that standards are the most powerful tool that you've never heard of to scale and accelerate the transition. So I'm really grateful for the opportunity to help your listeners learn more about it. And once again, would encourage folks to go to iso.org slash net zero to see the ISO net zero guidelines for yourself. and to start taking action today.
Speaker #0
Yeah, and if they have any further questions, they can offer your offers on LinkedIn. So they should- I am very much on LinkedIn.
Speaker #1
Yes, Shaina Gallagher, please connect with me. I welcome your DMs.
Speaker #0
Especially if you're interested in sea and whales. We love whales here.
Speaker #1
We love whales, exactly. Preferably humpbacks, but I don't discriminate. Any subspecies will do.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Canales, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights, and ideas over more than 40 episodes, and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory. for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears.
Speaker #3
Until next time.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

Keep up to date with new episodes s=1">straight from your inbox

Support Energ'Ethic on com/Energethic">Patreon

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hello! Passionate about sustainability, energy and climate? You're in the right place. Welcome to Energetik. I'm Maureen Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. They may be activists, scientists, policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. Today we are going to meet Shana Gallagher, the Dynamic Net Zero Engagement Manager at the prestigious British Standards Institution, BSI. With Shana, passion meets purpose in the fight against climate change. She stands at the forefront of a groundbreaking coalition bringing together ISO, the UN Race to Zero campaign, and the UNFCCC Global Innovation Hub. She leads the charge in corporate engagement and the widespread adoption of the ISO Net Zero Guidelines. Her mission, in a nutshell, is to forge credible, ambitious net-zero strategies that significantly slash private sector emissions. In short, she's committed to setting the right benchmarks for climate action. Let's dive into Shanna's journey. Shanna, welcome to Energetic.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Shanna. So, Shanna, what sparked your interest and led you to become deeply involved in climate advocacy somehow in the formulation of net-zero strategies?
Speaker #1
It is a very long story, so I will do my best to keep it short. Thank you so much again for having me on today. I was very fortunate, as so many people who are deeply passionate about the climate crisis are, to grow up in places and environments where I was able to spend a lot of time outdoors and in nature and specifically by the ocean. And I was a big swimmer growing up and had a lot of love for marine life. And... When I was nine years old at a birthday party on the beach, I have a very vivid memory of looking out at the sunlight glistening on the waves and admiring how beautiful the view was, only to realize after several minutes that what I was really seeing was thousands of dead fish floating to the surface and reflecting the sunlight, not just the sunlight glistening off of the waves. And that was the first time at a very early age that I really understood. that human activity could harm the natural ecosystems that I felt so strongly that it was then my duty to protect. And so that very formative early experience led to more realizations of the role that humans are playing in altering and changing our planet and our climate. And there have been many iterations of what That has meant for me in terms of my impact, but ultimately, over the course of my career, it became increasingly clear to me that the climate crisis is in fact a political problem, not a data problem or a social problem. And that previously, the biggest role that I could play, you may be able to tell from the sound of my voice that I'm American, was in driving political change. political will for action on climate in the United States. So for the past seven or eight years of my career, that is the work that I had been doing. And I worked for candidates and for campaigns that had very strong pro-environment, anti-climate change platforms. But ultimately, we certainly don't need to get into the upcoming election in the United States on this podcast. but ultimately I determined that actually leveraging political systems was not the best and most efficient way to make change given the time frame that we have to tackle the climate crisis. And so after about seven years working in politics in the U.S., I made a decision to move over to the private sector, which I believe has a greater potential to reduce emissions within, again, the very short time frame that we have. And I'm very proud to say that I've always made career decisions based on answering the question, what can I do to have the single greatest impact in reducing emissions and tackling the climate crisis? And I fundamentally believe that the work that we're doing at BSI, the British Standards Institution, to help develop the world's first ever formal certifiable net zero standard is the answer right now. And so that is how I came to BSI and to the world of standards, which is generally... somewhat boring and wonky and behind the scenes, but again, is a crucial lever that we can activate in order to scale and accelerate the transition and ultimately save the world. So that is my story and why I'm so excited to help your listeners understand what the role of standards is today.
Speaker #0
That's incredible. And I mean, I don't think that we ever had such a compelling story to start with. So thank you so much, Janelle. And I must say that I totally relate with the love for water and for marine animals as well. uh people who know me know that i'm i have like whales over my place but that's really like i mean we all need the ways to to start with and and i mean that's also such an interesting shift you kind of made from let's say the political sphere to uh the private sector sphere because many uh at least in europe there are still a lot of people who are a little bit kind of uh who have kind of cold feet regarding the private sector possibility of action. But as I said in the introduction, somehow you and the role of ISO is to set the right benchmarks to kind of foster their action. So can you dig a little bit deeper into what those standards are for? And actually, what is the story of this, the organizations, because there are several for standardization?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. First of all, I feel very compelled to say, because we haven't talked about this before, Maureen, that I'm also obsessed with whales. I have a whale bracelet. I have a whale tail tattoo. So we are great minds thinking alike. Whales are majestic and very motivating for both of us. That's very funny. So yes, what is the role of ISO and the history? Very proudly, I would love to tell you, as BSI likes to talk about often, that actually BSI is the oldest and largest national standards body of the 170 standards bodies that are members and participants within the ISO system. And so the precursor organization that became BSI, the British Standards Institution, was formed in 1901. So we've been around for a very long time providing standards, which are essentially just guidance and... rules, voluntary rules, for how industry should proceed in designing and creating and implementing goods and services in a way that will be most efficient and beneficial for society. So BSI is the UK's national standards body, and we are the UK national body or member of ISO, which is the International Standards Organization. I often describe ISO as the new end of standards bodies. That's how your listeners should think about it. So basically every country in the world, for the most part, that participates has a national standards body. The exception is the United States, which has lots of different standards bodies, but they're all represented within ANSI. So that's de facto the U.S. national standards body. In every other case, a country will have just one national standards body. and they all liaise with and talk to and negotiate with each other and develop standards within the international standards system, namely ISO. So that is the structure and the role of standards. There are tens of thousands of standards around the world at both the national and the international level. The role of standards is to provide a set of guidance and definition for what good looks like for any given product or service or sector. And so when I said earlier that this can be quite boring and behind the scenes, we often describe standards as the fabric of the real economy. So there are tens of thousands of standards at work and at play every single day that already are the foundation of a lot of the... trust and accountability and verification in the market. So for example,
Speaker #0
yeah, the sheet of paper, for instance, it's one of those like the things that we can think of like A4, it's like the same.
Speaker #1
It's the same everywhere. Yes. And the reason that we also trust the food that we eat and know it's not going to poison us and we know that the laptop we buy is going to work is because standards underpin those products and services. Again, they are usually voluntary. There are some standards that are mandated by law, but there is more industry buy-in because it helps to achieve credibility and trust in the market when you are abiding by standards and have the certification that comes along with abiding by standards. So different sectors and industries use standards to different degrees, but they historically have been quite... industry and sector specific. And that is what we are trying to change now with this first ever formal certifiable net zero standard, because obviously net zero applies to every sector and industry and the entire economy and all of society needs to transition off of fossil fuels and to net zero. And so that is why leveraging this very powerful, often behind the scenes infrastructure of tens of thousands of standards and tens of thousands of people around the world in basically every country whose job it is to develop and then implement and certify against formal standards will provide a level of accountability and trust that is really lacking in the net zero ecosystem and the net zero governance landscape right now. And I'm sure many of your listeners will already We know that greenwashing, which is when. private sector organizations make claims about their climate action and their net zero action that then are not actually corroborated or based in any real plan is much more easily achievable when there is no clear standard. So we will provide that clear understanding of not only what is a good net zero target, but what is a good credible plan to achieve it. And that is the clarity that the... first ever formal certifiable standard around net zero will bring to the market.
Speaker #0
That's super interesting that you bring this issue of greenwashing forward because the European Parliament recently voted in favor of regulation against really greenwashing and against false green claims. So from what I understand, let's say that the standards, international standards, they are like acting in the background, whereas regulation, they would. give some let's say broader considerations but then the practice it will trickle down to somehow this kind of standards organization to make sure that there are some some taxonomy some way to to talk to each other to make sure that when we talk about something we talk about the same thing we speak the same language we have the same kind of of understanding of the outcomes of the components as well and that when for instance we talk about i don't know bread We talk about something that is made with flour and water and salt, and we are not talking about something that is made with fruit or sugar. I mean, there can be sugar in bread, of course, but it's not something that is made with, let's say, coal. It's not matching with bread, for instance. I mean, I think it's also something that we kind of tend to forget when we focus a lot on regulation, that many, many things are actually already happening and that you complement each other, like the standards are complementing regulation somehow.
Speaker #1
Yes, and I would love to just use that example as a segue to talk about the three primary differences between formal certifiable standards. So those are the standards that are created within the ISO or the BSI system and more voluntary. The word standards is often used, but frameworks or initiatives. And these are the frameworks that have been governing net zero action to date. And that's because, again, there hasn't been a formal certifiable net zero standard yet. There is something called the ISO net zero guidelines already within the ISO system that I'll speak more about later on. and these guidelines are part of the foundation that is in place. forming the development of the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard. But historically, for the past five or 10 years of the climate economy really taking shape, the organizations and frameworks that have been governing net zero action have been primarily led by nonprofit voluntary organizations. And that is wonderful and important because they've mobilized the private sector. but The frameworks and initiatives, to a certain extent, I should say, but the frameworks and initiatives that they have created are different from formal certifiable standards in these three very important ways. So just to speak to the role of regulation, there is a very strong precedent for standards, formal certifiable standards, to inform legislative development in many, many contexts. And the reason for that is actually in large part because of... World Trade Organization law. So within WTO law, it is mandated that as a mechanism to reduce barriers to trade. WTO member countries and policymakers within them have to refer to relevant formal certifiable standards, which often tend to be ISO standards, when they are developing policy relevant to that standard and the issue that it touches on. So from your point of interoperability and streamlining the transition, getting this net zero standard right is going to inform. the net zero legislation that inevitably will emerge in countries around the world in a very important, powerful way. The two other major differences between formal certifiable standards and voluntary initiatives is the global scope of ISO. So I mentioned there are 170 different member bodies and countries within ISO. So that global structure is really going to help scale and accelerate the transition all over the world, which ultimately we really need. This is a global transition. And then there's also a very powerful and important mechanism and infrastructure called the global quality infrastructure at play. So national standards bodies and the international standards organization ISO don't operate in a vacuum. They operate alongside formal assurance bodies. And so in the UK, for example, we have BSI and then we have UCAS. And that binary relationship it. with the UK accreditation body, UCAS, is the binary relationship that's replicated in basically every ISO member country and at the international level, where formal standards are developed. And then folks who work for these accreditation bodies, their job is to go out and train the auditors of the world who then certify and verify against these standards. So ISO standards often come with a regular audit. And again, that accountability mechanism is something that is really lacking from the net zero governance landscape right now, because the voluntary initiatives and the nonprofit organizations that I mentioned, who've done a wonderful job mobilizing the private sector initially to take on the climate crisis, do not have the resources or the capacity to be the global governance mechanism for a global transition. And at the same time, the global quality infrastructure is designed to do exactly that, to provide trust and verification in the market. And so when we can scale and converge and harmonize the really wonderful work that voluntary initiatives like the Science-Based Target Initiative and the Greenhouse Gas Protocol and even ISSB have done to generate these voluntary frameworks for defining various aspects of good net zero action. And we can formalize that within a standard, which will be the first ever formal certifiable standard. It is going to help scale and accelerate the excellent work that they have started in a way that will provide that accountability and verification that is really lacking right now. And ultimately, that is what it will take to ensure that the transition is happening quickly and credibly such that we can avoid. catastrophic climate change and maintain warming to well below two degrees.
Speaker #0
Wow, that's really so interesting because indeed, when you see the non-profit NGO world, they often lack the capacity for enforcement. And it's also something that is always pointed out whenever there is a good regulation coming out that you have this enforcement issue. and yeah And many countries, they don't have enough capacity to go and knock the door of every business and ask if they are actually doing what they should be doing. So, I mean, I wouldn't expect like the quality standards to apply to mom and pop shop, but somehow they do because they are in direct contact with other organizations who actually have to do it. So it's really part of an ecosystem that you can, if I understand correctly, it makes really everything a little bit more smooth and reliable and that actually fosters trust as a consumer, as an end user, but also as a citizen.
Speaker #1
Yes, exactly. And that is part of what we'll get, hopefully, in terms of consumer understanding of net zero and who is taking credible net zero action. Again, when you are abiding by formal certifiable standards, that means you're certified against them. That means you quite literally get, you know, a certificate or an icon or a label that demonstrates your alignment with. ISO standards with BSI standards, you know, any number of formal standards. And that is something that consumers can then look for. And this certifiability, this checking of the box is something that private sector organizations are really hungering for. Because one of the problems that is leading to an action on... the climate crisis is that because the net zero governance landscape is so fragmented and confusing right now, it's often called the alphabet soup of ESG frameworks and initiatives. It's very easy to criticize and it's much harder to celebrate. And so I should make it very clear to your listeners, greenwashing is, it often happens on accident. It's not always sinister. or with malintent that private sector or any organization are saying, let's hoodwink the public and we're going to continue to produce and emit greenhouse gases, but we'll tell everyone we're doing a phenomenal job. I would say that that does happen much more consistently within the fossil fuel industry, but in many other industries, organizations really want to take action. They just don't know how because this net zero. governance landscape of voluntary initiatives is so fragmented and confusing right now. And so this fear of greenwashing accusations has actually led to something called green hushing, where organizations are basically not doing anything because they don't want to be criticized. Or if they are doing something, they're quite quiet and behind the scenes about it. So what this means is if we can get a net zero standard right, that is holistic and credible and includes all of the necessary components of a credible, effective, high-impact, net-zero journey that will actually reduce emissions and facilitate a just transition, then having a check-the-box exercise is a good thing. The market needs to have a mechanism to understand very clearly and consistently who's doing a good job and who isn't. And again, that is something that you rightfully point out is just not. a facet of the resources and capacity that non-profit organizations have inherently, but it is the exact function of the quality infrastructure, the formal international standard system, and the formal international assurance system.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so somehow you act as the sheriff who will just say here or there, there is something that is not working. And I would assume that you also work with consumer organizations, consumer agencies, national consumer agencies to kind of work on improvement because I would suppose that those standards, they need continuous improvement as the world evolves. And if I'm correct, I read somewhere that you were... The ISO was planning on reviewing all of its 24,000 standards to align with the Paris Agreement. So that's a huge job. So how do you make sure you stay up to date? And how does really the work in setting those kind of international benchmarks do work with the multitude of partners you have to deal with?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up that very important. climate change commitment of ISOs. It's called the London Declaration, or it was originally. And what's important to keep in mind here in terms of, yeah, not just the ISO net zero standard, but changing all of the standards to align with Paris climate science, which is what ISO is committed to, as you pointed out through this London Declaration, is once again, if you agree that standards are the fabric of the real economy, tens of thousands of standards underpin the real economy in basically every. geography in every sector to varying degrees, and you also agree that the entire real economy needs to transition to net zero, which we do in order to protect the one planet that we have, then you would also agree that not only do we need a net zero standard that will facilitate the transition in a very clear way in terms of the process for organizations to achieving net zero, but we also need every single other standard that already exists. to be aligned with the transition. So that is exactly the process that the London Declaration has embarked upon updating all of ISO standards to be aligned with Paris Climate Science. And that process combined with developing the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard will really help to activate and leverage this system that we've been talking about for the transition and to ensure that the economy can credibly achieve net zero by 2050 or sooner. And so the question you're essentially asking is, is how does this work? And the role of standards bodies, formal national and international standards bodies, is to once again converge and harmonize best practice. So we, and by we, I mean folks who work for national standards bodies or international standards bodies, there is no, No one person makes up. this system. This is a consensus-based system, but we view our role as converging and harmonizing the best practice that has often already been developed in the market or by non-profit initiatives in the case of net zero. And so the way that the ISO net zero standard will be developed, for example, is through ISO's Climate Change Committee. And once again, these committees and the entire system, they operate sort of like the UN. So... The way ISO standards are developed is that every country that participates has a vote on the relevant ISO committee. So in this case, the ISO Climate Change Committee, which is technically called ISO TC 207. And all of these countries will come together and represent their country interests, but also the industry and issue experts who make up those national standards bodies and those national committees who are then. using best practice that already exists in the market and the needs of their members and their constituents to develop standards. Can you share an example,
Speaker #0
like something really that you've worked on and that has successfully moved to the next phase?
Speaker #1
Well, I think the best example is what is happening now with the conversion of the ISO net zero guidelines into the formal certifiable net zero standard that we've been dancing around. So the guidelines are not yet a formal certifiable standard, but they were developed within the ISO system. So again, consensus-based, over 1,200 stakeholders from over 100 countries participated in this six-month process where you can imagine, if anyone who's listening has seen videos of the UNFCCC negotiations, for example. These meetings did not happen in person, but you can imagine 1,200 stakeholders on an online platform joining Zoom calls, contributing to and then deliberating about the components of a credible net zero strategy and what that includes, which ended up informing the ISO net zero guidelines, which are the first deliverable within the ISO framework that not only define net zero, but define a credible path to achieve it. which includes the seven steps of net zero action. So those are prepare, measure, target, reduce, removals, report, and impact. And now these ISO net zero guidelines, which were published and launched at COP27, are being converted into a net zero standard. And so the way that will work is that again, ISO's Climate Change Committee, which has representatives from all of the member countries and it will meet on a regular basis. to convert the guidelines into a formal certifiable standard. And the other organizations or stakeholders that can participate in that process are international nonprofit organizations, which are joining ISO's Climate Change Committee in order to help ensure that the ultimate standard has the expertise and perspective. that they have spent the past many years developing and honing. So, for example, a lot of the voluntary initiatives that I mentioned, the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, for example, CDP, the Carbon Disclosure Project, have joined ISO's Climate Change Committee as what is called liaison organizations in order to ensure that the best practice that they've developed is embedded in the ultimate net zero standard. So, once again, the role of standards is not to recreate the wheel. It's not to place any additional burden on organizations or private sector actors. It's to converge and harmonize the fragmented and often disparate landscape of voluntary frameworks in one place so that it's very clear for industry and for organizations what having a credible net zero strategy looks like.
Speaker #0
When you were talking, I didn't mind the director d'orchestre, the chef d'orchestre, the person who guides an orchestra, the conductor, I think you say that in English? Yes, yeah. Yeah, the conductor for the various instruments who actually play the same melody and it sounds very much like that. Exactly. Yeah, I was at Co-op in Dubai and I found it really pretty fascinating, but also totally overwhelming, the quantity of people who are attending. And I must say that I totally admire the capacity of organizing a potential chaos. Also, because I would imagine that you need a lot of translators and interpreters to make sure that everybody speaks the same language and agrees on certain rules. and how does the like the decision-making work at the end of the day. And I guess that's such a, I mean, I'm discovering along with the listeners, I think. So how does that harmonization, how does that, let's say, construction of the melody, how does it work in practice?
Speaker #1
Yes, no, absolutely. That's a really good metaphor. Thank you for raising it. And it can get messy. I'm sure you can imagine the process with those 1,200 stakeholders that I mentioned for developing the ISO net zero guidelines, tears were shed a non-zero number of times by frustrated people trying to agree and find alignment. But ultimately, again, that is the real value of the ISO system. And why standards are so trusted, it's because they are consensus-based. So unlike the UN, where agreements need to be unanimously agreed upon. ISO standards need 80% agreement in order to be formalized and finalized. So the way it works is that every member country has a vote, and the vote happens, and 80% agreement will allow the standard to be formally adopted and finalized, and therefore the market to start using it. So it is a transition in its own right. Having this system, which over the past many decades has happened usually in person, moving to online and the facilitation of standards committees happening by the committee managers and the experts that they convene, again, is changing in its own right. But I'm sure all of us have been on many Zoom calls these days and can understand how a project. could come together from various stakeholders all over the world. The translation element is certainly difficult. We do have real-time translation that happens for most meetings at this point. And ISO resources are all translated into six languages by default. Any standard will be available in six languages. I believe it's English, French. Chinese, Russian, Japanese, and I am forgetting the sixth one, which is embarrassing. You should certainly go. Did I not say Spanish? Yeah, definitely Spanish. But if you go, if you're a listener, go to iso.org slash net zero. That is where the ISO net zero guidelines can be downloaded for free in any of those six languages. And it is just a sometimes messy process of time zone and language coordination, but ultimately... It has worked so far and will continue to work for the purposes of developing, again, the first ever formal certifiable net zero standard to provide that clarity and demystification of credible net zero action that we so urgently need.
Speaker #0
So if a business or a business owner who is listening to this podcast wants to implement this kind of standards, like net zero standards within the organization, what should they do?
Speaker #1
So glad you asked. And I just said the answer, but I will say it again now. The ISO net zero guidelines are free to use and download at iso.org slash net zero. And they are already being used by organizations around the world to create either from scratch or to enhance credible net zero strategies. And that is my job at BSI. I work. with companies that want to use the guidelines to create and enhance and develop their own net zero journey in line with global best practice. So for example, General Motors is a company that we work with very closely that has chosen to adopt the guidelines to develop their own net zero strategy This is a tool that you absolutely can and should use now, even though it's not yet a formal certifiable standard. And the reason to use it now is because you can de-risk your net zero strategy. We know that what's included in the guidelines, these seven steps of net zero action, preparing, measuring, targeting, so setting a net zero target, reducing, so actually mitigating and reducing emissions, which is, of course, in many ways, the most important part. deep decarbonization, what that means for removals, how often to report, and the impact or systems approach that is required to deliver net zero. These are all aspects of a credible net zero strategy that even though a formal certifiable standard doesn't exist yet, we know that it will. So if you adopt the guidelines and use them to create your strategy now, you'll be ahead of the curve. You can really make a name for yourself and prevent. any future consequences for not aligning with the standard once it is out in the market. And once again, you can help to demonstrate to other organizations around the world what best practice looks like and what that means for you. The reality is no organization on earth can credibly say, I know exactly what every day is going to be looking like between now and 2050 in my pursuit of net zero, but by building in the... principles and characteristics of a credible, holistic net zero strategy, you can really set your organization, your business up for success long term. So yes, they do exist. Any organization can use them already for free, and many organizations around the world are. And over the next year or two, as the net zero standard is developed, and when it is finally launched in public, you will be. as I've said, ahead of the curve and really able to demonstrate the credible high-impact work that you're doing to achieve net zero, because we know that the ultimate standard will look in large part like the guidelines because they are being used to inform the ultimate standard that's being developed with them as a foundation.
Speaker #0
And what would you reply to a business who... doesn't really want to set up this kind of standards? I mean, if you had like the possibility to say whatever you want to do this kind of business, what would you tell them?
Speaker #1
I would say that it is in your best interest to have a net zero strategy because this is the direction the world is going and it's ultimately strategic and beneficial for your company. You may have heard, some of your listeners may have heard the term adapt or die, right? Survival of the fittest. In other words, we know that the world is changing, the economy is transitioning. And so if you don't want to be left behind, then you'll have to transition. And in order to be relevant in the future economy and a future society, having a credible net zero strategy is going to be imperative. It's not an option whether or not you want to do that. It's a must do. And so fortunately, there are tools like the ISO net zero guidelines that demystify Okay. what a credible net zero journey can and should look like that are available before you will be penalized by the market and by consumers for not abiding by it, which is going to increasingly happen once again. This tool becomes a formal certifiable standard. So I would say it is in your best interest. It is strategic. Ultimately, it will make your business more sustainable and more profitable if you prioritize this sooner rather than later. Change can be hard. It does take time and resources, but it's only going to take more time and resources if you delay action longer.
Speaker #0
And that's a very nice way to look back to the elections in the U.S. because somehow, well, I've listened to many podcasts and read a lot of articles saying that whatever happens, the companies are trying to get ahead and they are really respecting this kind of standards. and and That makes me personally very hopeful that, I mean, you said that at the beginning that there is so much like, let's say, the political processes can be so heavy and lengthy, etc. But at the same time, you have private actors that are stepping in and they just realize that it's better for them. It's better to be more sustainable. It's better for their employees. It's probably better for the other level of the company culture and to really keep on having, attracting talents and so on. but it's also bad. best, of course, as a consumer to know that the companies are moving in a certain direction and that somehow sustainability is becoming the norm. Isn't that what you are aspiring for?
Speaker #1
No, absolutely. And it's a really good... way to also bring up another piece of recent legislation or policy that is very relevant to this conversation, which is the SEC ruling that just came out in the U.S. that mandates disclosure of emissions and climate action plans. And the impetus for this mandate and the reason that it's happening within the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission, is because it's important information for investors to have. This is the clarity and the information that the market is really grappling with and that investors and consumers will need in order to be well-informed and effective in the market long term. And that's the good news about the election is that no matter what happens, the economy can be a more rational actor and should always be. arguably a more rational actor than voters and then political parties which are still denying climate science. And let me just take this opportunity as an American to say, America, unfortunately, despite its global power and authority position, is the only country on earth where a major political party doubts or denies climate science. And that is absolutely me. insane. And we should all be outraged and completely condemn that that is a stance that is acceptable to have. Very unfortunately, that is the case. And so the outcome of the election will be very consequential for the global transition to net zero and action on climate. But again, the good news is this climate science is not in doubt in any other country, really, in a meaningful way. And the economy and investors increasingly understand that this is an inevitable transition. And when you, again, consider that standards are the fabric of the real economy and they are all being updated to align with climate science, then the economy is going to transition. So it's really just a question of can we do these updates? Can we develop this standard? Can we make these changes fast enough? And once again, I will just use this as a call to action for business owners and organizations that are listening right now. The ISO net zero guidelines already exist. You can already use tools and frameworks out there that are available for free to create your net zero strategy in a credible, holistic way. And again, it's going to de-risk your business and ultimately be really beneficial for your long-term sustainability and growth. So it's not reason to be afraid of the election outcome. It is hopefully reason to be optimistic that the economy is transitioning regardless of what happens in that election.
Speaker #0
That's great. Thank you so much, Sana. I mean, it's also a moment for me to just say that the upcoming episodes will dig a little bit deeper into the practicalities of this kind of tools, the certifications, because we're going to get in the next episode, we're going to get into sustainable clothing. So it's going to be, I never touched upon clothing before, so it's going to be interesting to see how that applies. how these kind of choices, the choice you make on an everyday basis can have an impact and what is the journey of the corporations that decide to embark on this journey. And the following will be really on sustainable finance, but from the energy community point of view. So we are really getting through Energetica, we are getting into these kind of conversations. And I'm really, really, really excited that we had this and really grateful we had this conversation today because I learned so much and now I wonder learn more. And I want to see how this kind of platforms do work in practice. So thank you so much, Anna.
Speaker #1
Thank you again for having me. I really like to say that standards are the most powerful tool that you've never heard of to scale and accelerate the transition. So I'm really grateful for the opportunity to help your listeners learn more about it. And once again, would encourage folks to go to iso.org slash net zero to see the ISO net zero guidelines for yourself. and to start taking action today.
Speaker #0
Yeah, and if they have any further questions, they can offer your offers on LinkedIn. So they should- I am very much on LinkedIn.
Speaker #1
Yes, Shaina Gallagher, please connect with me. I welcome your DMs.
Speaker #0
Especially if you're interested in sea and whales. We love whales here.
Speaker #1
We love whales, exactly. Preferably humpbacks, but I don't discriminate. Any subspecies will do.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Canales, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights, and ideas over more than 40 episodes, and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory. for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears.
Speaker #3
Until next time.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed