Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Hello everyone. No, you're not on the wrong channel or podcast. This is Fortitude. And for the first time ever, I am pleased to offer you an episode in English, since my guest is an American and doesn't speak French. I am greatly honored to have Ephraim Matos on the podcast. Honored and lucky, since he receives a lot of requests for interviews and podcasts and is very selective. The one thing that convinced him to accept my invitation was our common interest for Seneca. Amazing to realize that a philosopher that lived 2,000 years ago can actually bring a former Navy SEAL to accept discussing with a French podcaster. Ephraim Matos is indeed a former Navy SEAL, the very famous and unique unit from the American Navy, the elite of the elite. Efraim shares with us his childhood and how his parents'education, rooted in aiding the community and in resilience, shaped his personality and brought him to make very unique choices for his life. After living through a horrendous experience in Afghanistan, where he faced two little girls who were ready to blow themselves, but finally renounced. Efraim decided to dedicate his life in helping civilians in war zones. After retiring from the Navy, he buys a simple ticket on a commercial plane to Iraq and joins a group of volunteers to provide aid care to the wounded and help children, women, and the elderly to escape. Efraim and his comrades were the last line of defense between ISIS monsters and innocent civilians. Using his exceptional skills, he helped save dozens of them, in particular during the horrible battle of Mosul. Following this first experience, Efraim founded a non-profit organization named Stronghold Rescue and Relief, whose mission is to help civilian populations in war zones by teaching them basic medical skills, or how to use communication tools, and how to defend themselves. Stronghold is particularly involved in Burma, besides the Karen population, who is actually persecuted by the military junta. I have never met once in my life a person like Ephraim, without any political agenda, with no motivation other than his deeply rooted humanity. Ephraim sacrifices his life with a lot of humility. He uses his unique skill set to help the weak and oppressed. Some people talk about oppression. Some people protest. Some people tweet. Ephraim actually risks his life enabling people to defend themselves. Such a mission is not risk-free. Suffering from PTSD, Ephraim is in constant tension as he saw and lived so many horrific events. But he found meaning. through his actions, but also in philosophy. He reads Seneca every day to help him grow and heal. These are all the reasons why Ephraim is such a unique guest. I hope you will enjoy this episode, and please don't hesitate to go on Stronghold and Rescue's website to help the organization. Ephraim Matos, good evening, or should I say good afternoon?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, good afternoon. Yes.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, where are you in America right now?

• Speaker #1

  I'm in Milwaukee. It's a city north of Chicago, about one hour north of Chicago.

• Speaker #0

  Wisconsin, right?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, Wisconsin, correct.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, and your name, does it sound right? Efraim?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, actually, it's a very strange name. I believe it has Hebrew-Israeli roots, but I'm not Jewish. But my parents just liked the name because they saw it in the Old Testament of the Bible. But yeah, it's actually true story. I don't know exactly how to say my name correctly. So there's multiple ways to say it. There's Ephraim, Ephraim, Ephraim. And then the people from people who speak Spanish, they say Ephraim or, you know, you said it the French way. So either way works for me. I know if you're looking at me, you say the letter E. I know you're talking about me. So it's all good.

• Speaker #0

  okay and worst case scenario if i have a problem with your name i'll call you sir no need so um from what i i from my research and why i studied you're around 30 years old now right is that correct uh correct yes i'm 31 yeah you were born and raised in actually where you are right now in milwaukee wisconsin um yes i was

• Speaker #1

  technically i was born on the west coast of the u.s but yeah i grew up i grew up here in in wisconsin okay so in a in a baptist family uh yes yeah and what i what i heard is what i understood it was quite

• Speaker #0

  a religious family is that correct

• Speaker #1

  Correct. So when I was growing up, we were a part of what we called a fundamentalist religious group. It wasn't weird. It wasn't crazy. It was just very strict, and people tried to live very morally and try to live a little more old-fashioned with their values and such. So it was actually... a very good childhood. I had a very good childhood. I had a very, very strong moral. foundation growing up. And when I look back at my childhood, I think it was actually, it was actually pretty good. But around the time I was 16, um, I realized that the sort of fundamentalist religion, uh, definitely was not for me. Um, and I felt it wasn't very balanced and it wasn't how I wanted to live my life going forward. So, um, I actually left the, I left the church, I left the school. Um, there was no, there was no big fight. I, I was. And my attitude was simply, I respectfully disagree. And I wanted to join the military and do special operations. And so that's kind of what I shifted my focus toward that goal. But I still have a good relationship with everybody. And I still have many of the same core beliefs. I still have my faith. I still have my family. And I still have many of the moral principles I was taught. but I live my life in a little bit more of a balanced way.

• Speaker #0

  Through this education, you were taught to look at other people and to help out other people, because what I read was that you were going to church several times a week, but it was not only going to church. You were active in community services. At one point, you went to help out in... in poor neighborhoods and everything. So when I heard that and I discovered afterwards what you did and what you do today, of course, we will talk about it. I had the impression that these roots, this education, those values, as you mentioned, were not, it was not by chance that later on you had this kind of personality that... you reacted to the suffering of other people.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. My, my upbringing absolutely forged the, the, who, who I am as a person, no doubt. The, a lot of, a lot of what I, what I did growing up and a lot of how I was taught growing up was to think of others was to always, we were always taught, be a servant, meaning that doesn't mean be subservient, meaning you don't have to be a slave. That's not what they're saying. They're saying, always look for ways that you can help other people. always look for ways to serve because that's true love. That's true religion. That's what it really means to be a good person. It's how you act. It's what you do and having a good heart behind it. And yes, growing up here in Wisconsin, in Milwaukee, one of the areas here in Milwaukee is actually one of the most dangerous areas in the country, in the entire US. There was a British film crew made a documentary about this particular neighborhood, and because it was the highest per capita murder rate in the entire United States. And so during my childhood growing up, I didn't fully realize that. but in that neighborhood, I would go there on weekends. And that was the area that I was assigned to. And we would go and we would talk with people, bring them to church. It was primarily focused on kids. So we'd bring kids to church. We'd give them food. We teach them just basic biblical Christian values. and then, you know, they'd get away from home for, uh, for a few hours, um, you know, on Saturday mornings and Sunday mornings and things like that. And it basically give them an opportunity to see something different and to be around people who, uh, who love them and care for them and don't want anything from them. And yeah, that was, that was how I spent my, my childhood Saturdays. I didn't, I most, most kids they'll, they'll, they'll wake up and they'll on Saturday and they'll ride their bike or they'll go play with their friends. Um, or nowadays, I guess. kids probably play video games. Um, but growing up for me, it was, I would get up and I would go to the, to the, to the poor neighborhoods and, and try to try to help people as best we could. So yeah, that was absolutely a value that was, um, forged in me from a, from a very, from a very young, uh, from a very young age. And that definitely. influenced who I am. And then also my father, he served in the Air Force Reserves growing up. So he was an air crew on C-130 cargo planes. So he wasn't a frontline fighter or anything close to that. But during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, he was deployed multiple times to go fly these aircraft and move troops around and all that. And so as a young man growing up, I saw how my father was serving other people in the military. And I looked and I thought, man, I would love to do something like that. I would love to serve others. um, and protect others. And, you know, I was a young man, I wanted adventure. I wanted, uh, action, um, same as many, many young men. And I saw a way to take that, take that desire for action, take that desire to serve others and, um, apply it to apply it to the military and in particular special operations, um, to, to serve others. So yeah, definitely my childhood definitely forged, um, how, um, you know, how I am today and who I am today.

• Speaker #0

  Both your parents were not the type to complain, right? And I mean, they came through some hardships, especially in 2008 during the financial crisis. I understand that your parents lost their home. You had to move. At no point, your mom had two jobs to provide for the family, but you never heard your parents complain. And I also believe that that's very important when you grow up to be educated and to see this example of parents that don't complain, do the work and move on.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, absolutely. We had some hard times as a family. We were never, to be clear, we were never very, very poor or anything like that. We always had food on the table. Everything was fine. But yeah, financially, our family was ruined because of the financial collapse. And you're absolutely correct. My parents never complained. And I didn't fully realize until I was older the stress that they were under. I didn't even fully realize what they had gone through. because they never, they never sat us down and complained to us. They never, uh, acted mean or rude or never took it out on us. I have one brother and that's it. And they never took it out on, on, on my brother and I, and my father, he, he, um, he's my hero. He just, um, you know, he. He lost all this money. He lost the job that he was doing. And we were bankrupt. And so not really, really not a good situation. And he never complained. He went and got a job working third shift. So that's the nighttime shift from so you're working all during the night, working for Coca-Cola. And so he took a rough job because it paid well. And he worked that job for years. And now he's a much higher level in the organization within Coca-Cola. that's what he did. He just put his head down, got to work, never complained, never took it out on his family. And he just, he just worked his way out of it, took responsibility and said, Hey. you know, I'm in this bad situation. It's not my fault completely, but it is my responsibility to get out of it. And he did that. And so he's the example that I try to follow in my life. When I'm in a situation that's not fair, it's not my fault. It might not be your fault, but it's still your responsibility to fix it and to get out of it. And so yeah, my father was a big inspiration for me, for sure.

• Speaker #0

  Basically, what we can say now is like, from your childhood. there are two strong pillars in your education. It was considering other people, serving and helping other people on one side, and on the other side, not feeling sorry for yourself and taking ownership, as one would say, and doing what has to be done. And the other aspect I wanted to underline... is my understanding, but correct me if I'm wrong, is that you didn't have exceptional physical attributes. You were not a great athlete. You were not particularly tall, strong, or gifted with, I mean, sports or any kind of athleticism. And why did I want to underline this? I'm not saying that you're not doing anything. My understanding is that you played basketball and everything. But when you decided... that you wanted to enlist and you chose special forces. And of course, we're going to go back to it. And you aimed for the Navy SEALs. It's not like you could contemplate this huge challenge. and saying to yourself, well, you know what, I'm gifted. It's not going to be a problem for me. So you had to dig in to find the motivation and the resources to allow yourself to try this challenge. And I had the feeling, the impression that, once again, how you were raised, the example of your parents, had a large part in you daring to go ahead with this challenge. And nothing was easy for you at the first place to decide to go there.

• Speaker #1

  Correct. Correct. So one kind of funny thing about me choosing to try for the SEAL teams, I had already looked at multiple different groups within the special forces. So there's the Green Berets, there's the Rangers, there's Air Force Pararescue, there's EOD, there's a lot of different special ops units within the U.S. military. Right. but every time I saw the seals, when I was reading through information about special forces and special operations, I would always tell myself in the back of my head, I would always say, oh, I can't do that. I can't be a seal. I'm not a good enough swimmer. Those guys are too tough. I could never be one of, I could never be a seal. And it was a subconscious. thought that I would think to myself without even realizing it. And I remember one day I was sitting and I was looking through some material on special operations, and then it hit me. And this thought came to me and I realized I would be the worst person to be in the military. I would be the worst person to be in special operations if I started my career by fighting running away from the challenge of being a SEAL. I'm not going to, if I'm the kind of person who has the mindset that says, I can't be a SEAL because I'm not good enough, they're too tough, whatever. if I start my life with that philosophy, I'm going to limit myself and I'm going to fail for the rest of my life. And so I realized at that moment, I thought, huh, I should actually, I actually need to try out for the seals. If I'm going to try out for something, I need to choose the single most challenging one that I possibly can. And so that's why I chose the seals in particular. And then when I chose to be a seal, and I started to try out for that. My attitude, honestly, my honest attitude was, I don't think I'm going to make it. I don't think I'm going to make it because I knew that 90% of guys did not make it through SEAL training. So I thought, well, they're probably going to kick me out, but I can't live with myself. I can't go through the rest of my life without having tried. And I'm going to give it every single thing. I'm going to give it all that I can. I have no intention of quitting, but they'll probably kick me out. but I went to SEAL training and then I realized it was actually during SEAL training that I realized the mental aspect of what's required. And I realized that I had the stuff I knew. I knew I was like, I realized that I had the mental fortitude to accomplish it. And I ended up being able to become a SEAL and became very confident that I could do what I needed to do to become a SEAL. So the confidence to be a SEAL. didn't even arrive in my head until I was already in the middle of the SEAL training pipeline, because I knew I needed to try.

• Speaker #0

  At one point, I think you said you visualized yourself. Visualization is something that we talk a lot these days, because we figured out that it's a good way actually to reach some goals is to just visualize ourselves reaching the goal. And if I sum up what you just said. what was going on in your head was like, I would not live with myself if I didn't even try. but at one point you did a little bit more than that. You visualize yourself achieving your goal. Is that correct?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, that is correct. So there's, there's two sort of visualizations that, that happened. One was, I didn't even realize that I was doing visualization, but I would always picture myself when I went into training, when I showed up to SEAL training, my thought was, I'm going to act like I'm already a Navy SEAL. and that's how I'm going to conduct myself. That is how I'm going to act during the SEAL selection process. I'm not going to just be forged into a SEAL. I'm going to already pretend in my head that I am a SEAL, and therefore the option of quitting isn't there. The option of being lazy isn't there. The option of not listening isn't there, because in my head, I'm already a SEAL. I just have to prove it. and that was one of my sort of visualizations that I would do was I would just visualize that I was already a SEAL. And I didn't realize it was visualization at the time. Later, during Hell Week... I was injured. I had a back injury. I'm sorry.

• Speaker #0

  I interrupt you for a second just for people that are listening to us. Most of them probably are not familiar with Hell Week. So I'm going to try to describe it in a few words and you correct me if I'm wrong. But Hell Week is this very famous week in the beginning of the selection process of the Navy SEALs where you almost get no sleep and you're roughed up and you... spend most of your time in the sand, in the cold water of San Diego, right?

• Speaker #1

  Yes,

• Speaker #0

  correct. Yeah, in San Diego Bay. And most people here would think that the water is warm, but it's not. And as this name can figure out with the name, it's really Hell Week. And a lot of people got injured and a lot of people actually drop off. So this famous Hell Week is just a little weak in all the selection process, but it's the one we hear the most about. I just wanted to explain to the people that are listening what exactly was Hell Week. So sorry I interrupted.

• Speaker #1

  No, no problem. Yeah, that's a good explanation. Um, yes. Uh, hell week. So when you, when you first show up to seal training, there's, when you start the actual seal selection course, there's three weeks of, of training where they're just weeding people out, uh, separating the wheat from the chaff. And usually during those first three weeks, half of everybody who's there, a half of your class goes away, but they quit or they get injured and they leave. And then their fourth week, that final week is hell week. and during hell week of all of the men who remain at least half of them get cut during that final week so the guys who even make it to hell week they've already they're already in the top 50 of the class and now you And of that 50%, half of them go away as well because of injuries and mostly quitting. 99% of the time it's quitting. So it was during this particularly arduous test that they put all seals have to pass. during this time, I was sick. I had been vomiting constantly and throwing up constantly. My lower back had just been injured and I was cold and miserable. And this was only night one. I was injured on night one of the week. So I was not happy about that. And I started to feel sorry for myself. I started to... think there's no way that I have the ability to go an entire week of doing this. I'm sick, I'm injured, and I'm only on day one. There's no way I can do this for the remaining week. And during that time, I don't know if it was a vision or a hallucination. I think it was probably just a hallucination in my extreme pain that I was in at the time. but yeah, I just, I, I was laying there in the water and I was considering the idea of quitting. It was the only time in my life. I just really sat there and thought about quitting. And in that moment, I had this, this image, this, just this image popped into my head of a, of a helicopter flying into, uh, into a jungle mountain and just some foreign jungle, uh, mountains. And there was one man on the helicopter and. And as the camera in my mind moved and rotated around to see who the man was on the helicopter about to be dropped into some sort of war zone by himself, I saw that the man was me. I saw the man on the helicopter was me. I saw this in my head, this image popped into my head for maybe five seconds, and then it went away. And in that moment, I realized that that was who I'm supposed to be. The man in that image was who I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to be the warrior who goes in to fight evil and to help people. And that's who I need to be. And I have to pass this test in order to make it. And so after I saw that, I... something in my heart and in my mind completely changed. And from that point forward, the thought of quitting absolutely never, never entered my mind.

• Speaker #0

  So would you say with your experience, with the fact that we mentioned that you were not particularly gifted, I insist on that because we often hear people giving up or not trying because they believe they don't have, they were not born with the required attributes to reach this or whatever goal. And it's important for you to share your experience because you are not particularly gifted. So would you... Can you confirm with your own experience that injuries set aside, of course, bad luck, the mind mostly can do anything. I mean, the body will follow the mind and with the proper visualization. I don't like to talk about motivation as well. I'm like Joko. I don't think it's really a real thing, but with determination, all that. you can make things happen that you would not believe could be possible. Would you agree with that?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, absolutely. And I think one of the advantages actually of not being gifted, of not being talented is that my entire life when I played sports and whatnot, I was never the worst guy. Never. I was always average strength, average speed, middle of the pack, just a normal kid. so I wasn't horrible at anything, but I was never the best at anything. So I always had to work. I always had to struggle. I always, sometimes I won, sometimes I lost, sometimes I was succeeded. Sometimes I failed, but I all growing up, I was, I constantly dealt with failure. So failure was not a foreign concept to me. And so my point with that is I was used to the idea of adversity. And so when I, when I showed up to seal training and, or, and other things, I expected to fail from time to time. I expected to be under pressure. And I knew, I knew what that was like because I was not talented because nothing had ever been given to me. I had to fight for everything that I had. And so when it came time to fight for my opportunity to be a seal, um, that, that character trait came out. One very interesting thing that I noticed about uh, about guys during SEAL training was that usually the most talented guys quit earliest on. And I know that seems strange, but it's true. Um, the guys who were, we had guys, uh, in my, one of the guys in my class, he was a he was an Ironman triathlete and he had been to the iron. He was like the youngest man ever to go to the Ironman championships. So incredible athlete. We had another guy who was sort of a CrossFit athlete. We had another guy who was like a, who was a free diver. We had another guys who were, they were division one, very, very high level college, college level athletes that could have gone pro. Um, so we had very, very talented, very capable men who showed up to our, to our class. And I bring up those guys in particular because they all quit every single one of them quit. And I remember watching them quit. And for me, just a normal middle of the pack kind of guy who was struggling to keep up. Um, And I realized that was the moment when I realized, oh, this is the mental toughness thing that they're talking about. These guys, even though they run Ironman and they run marathons and they're division one athletes. and they're incredibly athletically gifted, and they can do a lot of really great stuff. And these guys even have good attitudes. When it comes down to it, they've never failed before. They've never been just absolutely just beaten down before. They've just never been there. And so they don't know how to rise above it. And anytime they have been beaten down, they've been able to outlast everyone else around them. So it was interesting to watch that during SEAL training. these very talented guys go away because they, they mentally couldn't handle, um, the stress and the strain of constantly failing and knowing that no matter how hard you tried, um, oftentimes it's just not good enough, but you're still expected in SEAL training to give 100% effort. Even if you know you're going to fail, even if you know there's no chance for success, even if you know that if you win, you don't get rewarded for winning. You just now have to do extra work for having won. In SEAL training, that's expected that you give 100% all the time. And these guys didn't understand that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's an important aspect to understand all this. Let me pause for a second. Because my understanding is through the selection course, you can actually fail. It just means that you're going to get extra work. So for example, if you don't run the course in the required time, it doesn't mean you're fired. It just means that you're going to spend some more time in the water, in the cold water, while the others are probably going to sleep or anything. That's correct. Um, it's, it's not 100% correct, but on, on a day-to-day basis, that is correct. So in SEAL training, there's a few, there are a few things and a few standards that you do have to hit. You have to four mile time runs, swims and obstacle courses outside of that. There's nothing else that they'll kick you out for. It's like you said, it's guys who quit. So they, you go for a long run. If you fall behind on the run, they're not going to kick you out. They're just going to make you do a bunch of. squats and burpees and stuff like that. Exactly. And then they're going to tell you to catch up to the rest of the group, but you can't catch up to the rest of the group, but you're going to finish the run same as everyone else, but you're going to finish way behind them and you're in a lot more pain. So they're not going to kick you out, but they want to see, are you going to continue going? Are you going to continue trying? Are you going to give your best? And that's what they're looking for. And most guys don't, 90% of guys don't, they end up quitting.

• Speaker #1

  So that's the one thing I wanted to insist on, is to understand human psychology and will and fortitude, of course, is that this selection course is conceived to have you fail. but have you keep on going. Yes. Because when we listen to you, and we're not familiar with all this, and we listen that a guy who is an Ironman expert, he's used to pain. he's used to effort he's used to pushing his limits it's impossible to believe that the guy that actually ends one iron man is not familiar with those emotions and sensations and and and facing himself but we're if we go in the bottom of this it's it's not only the the fact of pushing yourself it's it's is being able to face your own failure. And I would even go further, is the importance of failure in building someone's strength and inner strength. When I'm talking about strength, I'm talking about inner strength, not physical strength. That's the key, you would say. You have to fail. You have to fall down. in order to first know how it feels and to figure out if you can move on. And that's quite interesting because if we set aside the military world and we go back to educating children, which is a topic that is very important to me. I have three kids. So of course, I'm questioning myself every day on how to do that. And it's quite funny because if I give a personal experience, my older daughter, is really, really comfortable with school. Studies were really easy for her. She has very good grades and she doesn't really have to study for them. And that's exactly what I told her at older. Be careful because your biggest problem, I mean, not problem, but your biggest disadvantage is it's too easy for you. And that's a problem in life. because regardless of how easy it is, you have not experienced failure and you cannot go on with your life and have a good life if you don't know how it feels and especially if you don't know how yourself react to failure. And so, you know, when we're saying your kid just fell on the floor, don't pick it up. In a way, that's the idea, don't you think?

• Speaker #0

  Yes, absolutely. I think that the adversity makes you stronger, but I'll say as well, it's not just about making somebody stronger. It's about finding people who have a good attitude when things go wrong. That's really what, particularly in the SEALs, what you're looking for is you're finding people who... when things go wrong, because in combat and war, things go wrong all the time. You watch your friend die, you get shot, or you get injured, or the helicopter crashes, or there are a million things that can go wrong in combat. And so what they're testing and what they're training you for is to see who is going to have a good attitude and continue to work just as hard, even though the mission has failed, even though everything's falling apart. And that's what they're looking for. And to your point about educating children and whatnot, yes, sometimes the single biggest disadvantage that people have is that they have too many advantages. So life has been too easy or they're too gifted or they've never really, really been pushed. And so when they are pushed, they're not bad people. They just don't really know how to react and they need to learn those lessons of how to react. And in the SEALs, you don't. War is not the right time to learn how to react. like to become a better person, right? It's too late. You're going to die. Someone's going to die. Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  We will jump a little bit. So your first trip overseas was Afghanistan. That was your first tour, Afghanistan. Is that correct? That's the first time you went overseas?

• Speaker #0

  Correct. That was 2014. Yep. My first time in Canada.

• Speaker #1

  I will go straight to your book, if you allow me. Okay. I would like to read some part of the book. I figured this part of the book is really, really... That's how I understood it, but... it's like a turning point really in your life with this experience you had in Afghanistan. So just to sum up the context, it's your second mission or your second day on a mission. I mean, it's really the beginning. You almost have no experience of Afghanistan at the time. And you were on a patrol. It was quite tense. There were Taliban's a bit everywhere and everything. And at one point. you are moving on with your patrol and you are bearing very cautious because you know you have enemies around. And I'm going to the book and I want to read this part if you agree. Glancing to the tree line where my fire team leader sat looking at me, I gave him an exaggerated nod to let him know I heard what was going on. Roger that. Stay alert, Chief ordered. Switching the safety on my MK-46 to fire, I scanned my sector with the scope backed out to one magnification so I could see more of the field and compounds in front of me. Movement! Fifty meters away, at the tree line, jutting out into the open field, the unmistakable bobbing of heads caught my eye. That was fast. Looks like they're here. Should I shoot? No, wait until you see a weapon. The bobbing heads were moving swiftly. I placed my finger on the trigger and gently pressed. Come on, let me see your hands. The heads made their way the final few feet to the edge of the treeline. The crosshairs from my weapon scope waited for the fighters to emerge. Adrenaline coursed through my veins while I tried to slow my breathing. Aim center mass. My finger tightened on the trigger as two little forms came out from the tree line and sprinted towards me. What the hell? Are those girls? One was maybe 8 years old and the other no more than 6. My scope filled with their faces. Tears streamed down their cheeks as they ran toward me. Both were wearing pink backpacks, IEDs, suicide vests. I leveled the crosshairs on the oldest girl's face and began screaming and waving my left arm at them. If they got much closer, I would have no choice. Go away. Get out of here. My voice screeched with desperation as they ran at me. Stop. Ten more feet and I was going to kill them both. If they detonated their bombs in our lines, they'd certainly kill me and my entire fire team and more SEALs would die trying to evacuate our bodies. I kept screaming, my finger on the trigger and scope leveled at the first little girl's face, but they kept coming. My heart broke in half. Exhaling, I began pressing the trigger when the girl suddenly stopped. I'll never forget the look she gave me. shock and horror. She knew I was going to kill her. I held the trigger and pleaded one more time, run, get away. This time she got the message and grabbing the other crying girl by the hand, she turned and they both ran back toward the Taliban lines. When I heard this event, when I listened to you on Joko's Willing podcast, and when I got back to it on the book, I mean, it's even hard to comprehend. You describe it very genuinely. we get a little bit of the sense of what happened. But of course, when you have not lived such situation, it's impossible to truly understand what's going on. And how do you move on after such an episode? And I know the answer a little bit because I understood that that was the turning point in your life. And once again, the choices you made afterwards, could you say that... it's because of this event that in a way you decided at one point that your life would be dedicated to help civilian people.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yes, absolutely. That, that event, um, being in a position, I made the decision in my head to, to kill the girls, but I waited one last second pleading with them, asking them, begging them to turn around and run away. And they did. And so I was like, it was, it was difficult because I'd already in my heart and in my head had already killed them. Um, I just didn't do it physically. Thank God. Um, and I'm very grateful that I didn't have to, and I'm, I hope that they're alive and well somewhere, but seeing, seeing the, seeing the civilians, seeing these little girls caught in the middle of this battle and, um, most likely carrying some sort of, uh, uh, suicide bomb in their backpacks. Um, I, I, I realized that there's these civilians who were just caught in the middle all around the world and nobody's there to help them. Typically the armies are there to fight each other and the civilians are totally forgotten in the middle. And even the American military, we do our best to help, but I wasn't able to help those girls in any real way. And so And because of that, yes, that set my heart and in my mind, I realized that I needed to eventually one day that I would leave the military and that I would dedicate my life and find a way to help civilians who were caught in those conflict zones. And the thing about about. experiencing it. And then eventually you have to, you have to eventually move on. And I think that the, the, the anger and the sadness of, of that experience, um, in the moment, in the middle of the battle, you just immediately, you don't think about it anymore and you continue to move on because you have, you have a job to do. And I think that that mental flexibility. comes from the training that we had as SEALs. So when you're going through SEAL training and you're failing and you're failing and all these bad things are happening constantly, but you pick yourself up and you keep going and you pick yourself up and you keep going, this was an example of a situation where things went wrong. There's little girls are being sent. uh, straight at our unit for us to kill them. The Taliban sent these girls right at us. And so that's wrong. Like, you know, the situation's wrong. And I made this, you know, I made the right call, but I mean, this terrible situation. Well, just like in SEAL training, I'm just going to pick myself up and I'm going to move on. I'll deal with it later. And I'll think about it later. And I did, but in the moment you just, you just move on and you move on to the next problem and you keep, you keep going because your team's relying on you to, to survive.

• Speaker #1

  If we move on a little bit. at one point you you were in thailand but you were you were still in the military but you were in thailand right and this is where you you got a first sense of what was going on in burma and everything but you were still in the navy right

• Speaker #0

  Uh, yes, correct. My, my first time in, in Thailand, I was, um, I was with the military in Thailand and I started to learn about the war happening in Burma. And when I was leaving the military, um, I went over to, uh, to Southeast Asia and, and to Thailand to meet some guys who, uh, were volunteering with the Iraqi military out in, um, out in, in Iraq dealing with ISIS. And so I went out there to meet the guys in Thailand and then I ended up going. and meeting with them. I ended up meeting up with them in Iraq to help as a civilian, to help the people who were being attacked by ISIS.

• Speaker #1

  We could stop the interview right now and your path is already quite stunning and amazing. But this is, if you allow me to say, this is where it gets really serious in a way because... People that are listening have to understand that you spent like six, seven years in the SEALs, in the Navy, and after you left... it's not like you retired to drink some pina colada on some beach. You decided to take a commercial flight and fly to Iraq. Is that correct? Yes,

• Speaker #0

  correct.

• Speaker #1

  And to commit to helping civilians in what was one of the most atrocious middle-aged battle seen to men for a very long time, which is the Battle of Mosul. so people have to understand and I really insist you got out of the military of the navy sorry you got out of it and you decided on your own accord to fly to Iraq in the middle of the worst conflict zone possible to help civilian people, population.

• Speaker #0

  Yes.

• Speaker #1

  And that was in 2017.

• Speaker #0

  Correct.

• Speaker #1

  So tell us about what happened in your mind.

• Speaker #0

  So when I... after the experience of almost killing those little girls in Afghanistan, it got my mind thinking about ways that I could do more to help the world. And when I was in the military, when I was in the seals, you know, we were, we were sent on important missions and we did, we did important work. Um, but I, I knew that there were places where there were no seals helping. And I, I kept on thinking about, well, you know, there's places in, you know, Burma, for example, where entire villages are being, you know, people are being raped and murdered and villages are being exterminated. And there's all these terrible, you know, battles and wars happening and people are being attacked. And at the time ISIS was of course, terrorizing Iraq and Syria and the entire middle East there. And there's all these civilians who were being attacked and there's these armies who were fighting each other. But I thought. there's, there's gotta be a way to help the civilians who are caught in the middle somehow. And I don't know exactly what that looks like. I don't know how to do it, but I know that that's where I need to be. And so my thought process was I need to go there. And my, my intention, I thought I would probably just be handing out humanitarian aid. I thought maybe I would be doing very, very basic medical work. Um, you know, if someone comes to me shot and I can, you know, help them a little bit. Um, I thought maybe I would drive an ambulance. I didn't know what my job was going to be. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew just like when I was going into the seals, I knew that I needed to try. And with the war on ISIS, I knew I needed to go and help because at the time, when you look at ISIS, they were so evil. They were our generation's Nazis. So imagine if it was World War II and you didn't volunteer to go fight the Nazis. and you just sat by and watched the Nazis do the evil things that they did. Well, I felt the same way about ISIS. I felt, um, what, what, how can I sit here and not go help as I'm a warrior? I'm a seal. I have all these skills. I know how to survive in these environments and I can go, I can go help. And so I flew there. Uh, like you said, commercial air, I flew to Northern Iraq, um, where it was relatively safe and secure at the time. And then I linked up with, um, some American volunteers and we, we went into. southern Iraq, or I guess it was still technically northern Iraq, but we went farther south into Iraq around the Battle of Mosul. And we started working with an Iraqi army unit who was charged with clearing areas around Mosul. And then eventually they were charged with clearing a certain section of Mosul itself as well. And at the time, as you alluded to, the Battle of Mosul was the deadliest urban battle that the world had seen since World War II. Now, the battles happening in Ukraine now are now worse than what happened in Mosul, no doubt. But at the time, Mosul was the worst that had happened since World War II. I went there to do humanitarian work and we were given weapons because we were basically acting as frontline combat medics for the Iraqi army. Because the Iraqi army soldiers, they're responsible for liberating villages. They're responsible for liberating neighborhoods and fighting ISIS. But the Iraqi army soldiers had no medics. And so I was not a medic during my time in the SEALs, but I was highly trained in medicine for the average person. particularly battlefield medicine. And so because of that, I was made a medic on the front lines with the Iraqi army. So I paid my own way to be there. I'm a volunteer, not getting paid. I can leave anytime that I want. And I'm working alongside the Iraqi army. So I'm working for basically a foreign military. And as the Iraqi soldiers cleared through ISIS, we would treat the wounded soldiers. and we would treat the civilians. And there were multiple times we launched rescue missions to help civilians who were caught in no man's land, who were caught in the middle. And this was exactly the place that I needed to be because we were able to save lives. We were able to get into gunfights with ISIS to direct their fire toward us so that ISIS would stop shooting at civilians and stop shooting at women and kids who were trying to get to safety. And in the battle... We couldn't save everyone, of course. And ISIS, we saw them just gunning down and shooting down women, kids, pregnant women, old people. We saw them killing people all the time intentionally, snipers taking intentional shots. It wasn't an accident. They were intentionally shooting multiple people and choosing their targets. And so it was usually civilians who would run away from ISIS territory as the Iraqi army came closer and closer and they would make a... the civilians would run and try to get to the Iraqi army as quick as they could. And then ISIS would shoot them in the back. And we saw this many, many times. And so I was in Iraq for about three months. And then at the end of that time, so one month of those three months was in Mosul itself until we launched a rescue mission to get a little girl who was alive in a pile of bodies. She was a survivor of a massacre where ISIS had killed many people. And so we launched a mission to go get her because the Iraqi army still did not control that area. So we went into ISIS-controlled territory about 100 meters away from ISIS headquarters and had to rescue the little girl. And during that time... um i was i was shot during that mission uh in the calf and um you know i was fine i didn't lose my leg or anything everything was fine um but that was that was my end that was the end of my time there in in mosul and

• Speaker #1

  there's actually which is quite stunning there's actually footage of this particular event you're talking about on youtube and i will you I will add to the information on the episode the link towards this video because actually I noticed that there are several videos because I guess there are a few journalists on scene and there are actually videos from Iraqi soldiers also from a building. So you get to see the scene from different views. So I strongly invite people that are listening to go watch this video. There's nothing... It is a horrible scene, but there's nothing gruesome. I mean, people can watch it. But the whole aspect of you... picking up the girl and everything. And afterwards, when you get shot, there's also this thing about Fog of War is you are behind a tank that provides you cover while you're organizing all this and you're shooting. And once you get shot and you have the little girl and there's also an old guy, I remember, the tank is actually rolling back and almost runs you over. So you just got shot. the normal reaction would be to scream and ask for help. But actually the tank is falling back. So you just, once again, you can't feel sorry for yourself and you have to stand up and run. That's crazy. That's crazy.

• Speaker #0

  The whole thing was very surreal. And I give any credit to my parents and then also my time in the SEALs. Yeah, when you get shot, you're knocked down in a very literal way. and there's no choice. If you stay down, you die. Because in that case, if I'd stay down, I would die because this tank is going to run me over in about three or four seconds. So I'm going to be dead. And so I have no choice but to get up and keep moving. And it's either lay down and die or just push through the pain and keep moving. You have to do what you have to do.

• Speaker #1

  At one point, I heard you had this crazy encounter with a French journalist who was actually... evacuated you from all this. That's true, right?

• Speaker #0

  So he didn't evacuate me. So after I'd been shot, I... And to make a long story short, all this stuff is on video, but I had to run across this highway to get the Iraqi army to send a Humvee out to the team who was still sort of in ISIS, in a threatened ISIS area. So that way they could load their patients onto this Humvee if they tried to move them across the street. everyone would get shot. So they needed an armored Humvee to go. So when I got to the Iraqi army, so I ran across this highway, a four lane highway, and ISIS was shooting at me the whole time. Luckily, I made it across. And then I saw somebody jump into a Humvee and drive out toward the guys who needed picked up. And keep in mind, there's machine gun fire and mortars and explosions going off during this whole thing. And well, come to find out, it was actually a French journalist who was embedded with us and was there to... uh, look at the war, record the, the, the, the war and the atrocities. And so he's just, he's just a neutral observer just watching. He's not supposed to get involved, right? Cause he's a journalist. Well, he was the man who jumped into the Humvee, drove out under fire. ISIS is shooting at him to pick up the rest of the team. They, uh, cause they were exhausted and they, um, they put the. they put the patients and everybody piles into the Humvee. And then the journalist, the French journalist drives them, drives them out to safety. And to me, I think his, his courage is probably my favorite courage of it all because he wasn't a soldier. He wasn't trained for any of that. And he had every excuse, every excuse to not get involved. His name was Bernard, Bernard Genier, or I don't know how exactly to say it. G E N I E R. it's not very complicated, but it doesn't work the same. And so I, I remember I, I made the joke to him. I said, Hey, if you have to drive the Humvee, then things have gone very, very bad. And it was a joke that I'd said to him and we laughed. Um, and Less than 48 hours later, he was driving that Humvee and I was laying on the ground bleeding and he was out there rescuing people. So kind of a funny thing about being prepared. Definitely be prepared.

• Speaker #1

  Once you finish your tour in Iraq, you move on with a larger project of yours, which was to actually have your own organization to do what you do. you want to do, meaning helping civilian population in conflict zones. So tell us a bit about it and what's your work today and how is it different from any other non-profit organization that we can know or see on war zones and what does it make it so special?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So when I left Iraq, I started an organization called Stronghold Rescue and Relief. And our mission, basically, we send veterans, usually guys from the special operations background, and we hire them and we go into conflict zones to protect and care for families. So we do it on a larger scale.

• Speaker #1

  Are they only Americans?

• Speaker #0

  Um, no, I actually have one guy from Denmark who, who works with us as well. Um, but mostly, mostly Americans. Yeah. But because that's just who we know where we'll, we'll hire anybody who, if we have a job for you, like we're, we're open to anybody. Um, but we're not, we're not a volunteer organization, so we don't, there's no opportunities to volunteer. Uh, even though we are nonprofit, I run it like a professional organization. Um, so everyone is, this is their profession, meaning this is what they do for, for, for living now. and it's all guys who have volunteered in conflict zones around the world. They have to have volunteered in conflict zones around the world before we even consider hiring them. So it's that we're looking for the right kind of guys to do this kind of work, who have the right heart for it. But so I started Stronghold Rescue and Relief, and we have three primary missions. We do emergency medicine, humanitarian relief, and then we call refugee protection. And refugee protection is basically more of the security aspect in the conflict zones. We'll do rescue missions. We'll do stuff to help people who are under direct fire and things like that. So our biggest permanent operation that we have right now is in Burma. On the emergency medicine side, we have four full-time ambulances that are run by people from those countries. So one of the things that's unique about our organization. is we send in very small teams of outsiders and our entire job is to enable the locals to do the work on their own. We train them, we provide them the supplies that they need. We mentor them where we stick with them. Um, whereas most, most organizations they'll go in and they'll, they'll help in a situation, but then they'll leave or they don't, they don't put a permanent. um, skillset with the locals, they'll kind of go in and, you know, maybe do some medical care and then they'll leave. We do the opposite. We stay, we'll, we'll stay. We don't just go for a couple of weeks. We go for months. And, um, I just spent, um, about like this year, I spent about six months living in the jungle in Burma. Um, because that's what, that's how we operate. We send in, we go in for a long time and make sure that we really have the time to train the locals. And so they can take care of themselves when we leave. So we have ambulances that are run by the locals. Three of them are truck ambulances and one is a boat ambulance. Where they operate. is a place that's under constant air attack. There's constantly guys getting shot, defending their villages from the Burma army who are trying to exterminate their, trying to exterminate the ethnic minority tribes. And so there's this constant, there's this constant war. And then on the relief side, we of course provide food and blankets and whatnot for people who need them. And then on the- the refugee protection side, we send guys to the front line and I will live on the front line of the war there. And we'll embed with the guys there. We'll provide medical training, frontline medical care. If villages or people are attacked, we'll fight, we'll defend them. And only if the locals allow us to be there, of course. So we never show up and demand that we be allowed there. We always work directly with the locals with their permission. And so one of the things that is unique about us is like we will carry weapons and we have no problem carrying weapons and we will use weapons and we make no apology for that. But only if the locals give us the weapons and only if they allow us to carry them and whatnot. So we always were working for the locals and teaching them how they can better protect themselves. And we stand with them in the worst times when their villages are being attacked again. when I was there in Burma, just in May. a couple of miles away from the village that I was working in, the Burma army went into this village and many of the people ran away, but 17 people didn't make it out of the village. And it was mostly women and kids. And so there were 17 people left in the village and the Burma army killed all of them and burned their bodies, just stacked their bodies and burned them. And of the bodies that were found, of the 17 bodies that were found, 10 of the bodies were from children. 10 years old and younger. And so that was just like a couple of miles away from where I was when I was there. And so we see this all the time. We see these attacks happening all the time. And so we stand with people in these conflict zones and provide them, again, medical care, frontline assistance when appropriate and where appropriate and help them provide the safety that they need to get people out and then also provide them the humanitarian resources. for those days when people are hungry and they've lost their homes and whatnot. So definitely a very unique organization in how we do what we do.

• Speaker #1

  And yes, it's important to explain as well, because I looked into it on the website of Stronghold. You have a very unique... manner to raise funds.

• Speaker #0

  So to comment on that really quick, so we're a nonprofit organization and we rely completely on donations from people who want to help, who just want to give to charity. So we're a nonprofit charity registered in the US. And so instead of going for large grants or instead of trying to constantly go to rich people and say, hey, give us money, right? We don't do that. And instead we say, Hey, why don't we have, we have, we have thousands of people instead who each give us on average, it's about 20 us dollars a month. Um, and we just say like, Hey, if you want to, if you want to help us, uh, if you want to help support what we do, um, you just sign up. It's sort of like a Netflix subscription. Um, you just sign up and you give, uh, 50 cents a day. So $15 a month. And we even max, uh, we have a maximum amount that people can sign up for on a monthly basis when they first sign up. and that's for $1 a day. And so we don't want people to feel like they need to give all of their money. We don't want to provide that. We don't want to put that pressure on anybody. So that's another unique thing about our organization. Show me any other organization that says, no, no, no, don't give us more money on a month-to-month basis. You're not going to find that. But that's because we truly want people who want to be involved to just give. If everybody gives a little bit. you can have a major impact. And so we've been able to raise millions of dollars and save hundreds of lives. And we do on an almost daily basis nowadays with our ambulances in particular. And it's because of people who just give. 50 cents a day or a dollar a day. And that's, yeah, that's what we do.

• Speaker #1

  We could talk for hours. I'm sorry. But now, just to wrap this up, I'm gonna end maybe not with the easiest part. But when I discovered your story, and I listened to you a few times, I read your book. and to tell the people that are listening what helped us get in touch and you very nicely told me before we we started to record that you actually agreed to talk with me on fortitude and you have a lot of solicitations of course it's because i wrote you an email this email i mentioned that we could talk about seneca because i i heard that you were quite fun of antique philosophy and Roman philosophers. And this is one thing we have in common. And that's what got you to accept my invitation. So as you know, I'm really fond of, of antiquity and mythology. And when I, I look at your life, there's this one concept that comes to mind, which is, uh, in English is catabasis. Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with it. the catabasis so the catabasis it's catabase in french it's the word we use this to designate the journey of one who goes to hell and comes back and um and uh so the famous uh mythological heroes who went through catabasis were hercules of course uh i'm not very good with uh greek names in english oh don't even don't worry about it i know what you mean but orphea and all of them and uh in a also and um so to get back to you you know where i'm going here is obviously you you went to hell several times. You came back and you go back to hell. And I know... I think the expression in English is having a toe. It has a toe on you. And I mean, yes, you were shot. You got shot one, but it was not the only one you got. And you suffered from PTSD. And can you just tell us a little bit about this? Because it's a subject that is very important to this podcast for various reasons. We talked about it and we're quite late in France with dealing with PTSD. and so it's that would be nice if you could share your experience with us with this respect and tell us what helped you get out of it How come you're so close, Seneca?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, more than happy to talk about it. I feel like this is probably the most important thing to talk about because in our own and everyone's life, people go through challenges and whatnot. And you have to focus on how do you get out of it and how do you deal with it? So yeah, for me, I've definitely had and probably even now still definitely deal with some PTSD. When you go to war... you are doing a very unnatural thing. So it's very natural for, for young men, for example, to want to go hunting. It's, you know, it's natural for men to, uh, want to go and even, you know, fight and do combat sports and men are drawn to those things. But even men, even when men go to war, um, it's, it's a very unnatural thing. It's very unnatural to kill someone. It's very unnatural to. watch your friends get killed. It's the amount of fear and terror that you feel is, is yeah, it takes, it takes a toll on you. And for me, you know, none of my, none of my particular like PTSD or anything like that was due to my personal fear. A lot of it had to do with just anger and hatred. And I was so mad, for example, coming out of Afghanistan, I was so angry. at these Taliban guys. I couldn't believe like what they had done with the, with the little girls and sent them at us to, so we would kill them. And it manifests itself in different ways. And when I went to Iraq, um, you know, I was in really, really terrible situations. I was, you know, um, shot in the leg. Um, and I'm, while I'm bleeding out of two holes in my leg, ISIS is still shooting at me. I'm tripping over the bodies of, of little girls who've had their heads and faces blown off by, by a machine gun, by ISIS machine gun fire. And I'm tripping over these rotting bodies of, of, of pregnant women and babies and kids. And I'm, and I'm, you know, physically tripping over these bodies as I'm trying to. stop the bleeding from my leg as people are still trying to kill me. Right. So you have these, you have these kinds of, uh, experiences. And even just about nine months ago, at the beginning of this year, one of my best friends in this world, we were in a combat situation together protecting people in Burma. And he was a local guy from Burma, but he was hit in the head by shrapnel and he slowly died and we had to carry him out. It took us hours to try to get him out and he still died and he was covered in blood and vomit and his brain was hanging out. And it was horrible, horrible, horrible situations. And so, yeah, my point with all of that is it's going to affect you. So my first, I say all that because my first point is this, when bad things happen to you, it's going to affect you. So whether you're a soldier or a police officer, or I don't think we talk about it enough. You know, people who are victims of sexual assault. or people who are victims of abusive relationships or abusive parents or abusive spouses, that can give you PTSD as well. It's the same mechanism in your brain. And so the first thing, for me, I always felt guilty about the fact that I had nightmares. I felt guilty about the fact that I was tense. I felt guilty about the fact that these evil, horrible experiences, I felt guilty that hell affected me. And... that is no way to live your life because I would, I was then overcome by guilt because I was like, I should be stronger than this. I should be tougher than this. And so for me, like my PTSD, uh, manifests itself in the form of depression and a lot of anger, um, not toward other people. And I never, never like physically violent, but I was just depressed and, uh, not interested in the regular world and very numb. And so it's one of those things where I had to realize, um, um, And several things were going on. And I felt guilty and ashamed for being affected. but also too, I was grieving and I was angry for my, my friends who lost. And for the, for the front, my friends who died, I'm grieving for the, for these kids who I saw die. I'm grieving for the bodies that I, of these innocent children who I was tripping over. So you're still grieving for them as you, as you move on through life. And I see their faces every day. I see their bodies every day, a hundred times every day, as I walk around and that's not normal. And, um, that's going to affect you. and so it's going to affect your sleep. You're going to have nightmares. And so for me, I've learned one, one thing is I've learned to accept that war is going to leave a scar on me. I'm never going to be normal air quotes again. I'm never going to be normal again. I've lost, I've lost that part of me. Like the, the, that innocent part of me is gone. And it's, and the, the, like the, the reality of what I've been through is will always be with me. And, um, so I, one is I've learned to accept it. And then the other is I've learned to, uh, you need to talk about it. You need to talk about it with people. You can't boil it up. You can't just let it boil up inside of you. Um, so that's one of the reasons why I'm more than happy to talk about it here on, on, on your podcast on fortitude is because, um, it's, it's good for me. It helps me. It helps me share it with other people. Now I'm speaking to people in France and telling them my, my story. And, um, that's, that helps me. It helps me heal. Um, and, uh, the, the other thing too is, uh, you know, for me, like I have a, I have a wonderful wife and, um, she's, she's, she's helped me a lot and helped me deal with, uh, deal with things and to, uh, to relax and decompress. Um, And, uh, so it's, it's, uh, what I'll say is it's, it's an, it's an ongoing battle. I still have trouble sleeping, um, here in, you know, and I also know that here in about three weeks, I'm going back into Burma, I'm going back into the jungle for, um, you know, for, uh, you know, five to seven months, um, I'm going to go back over there and we're, people are going to get shot. There's going to be, uh, horrible things are going to happen and we're going to have to save a lot of people's lives. I could be injured again. Um, I, I know this. And so there's that constant stress there. but it's the, it's, it's the warrior's life. It's what's, it's what you have to do. If you want to actually help people, if you actually want to make a difference. Um, and you know, one of the things like when I, when I, when I try to find courage, so kind of, you know, switching over to, to Seneca, um, you know, a lot of times people say, well, why, why do you go help? Why would you go do that? Don't you know, it's dangerous. Don't you know that you could get hurt? And one of the, one of my favorite quotes from Seneca is, uh, the wise man regards the reason for all his actions, but not the results. and what that means is the wise man is going to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do and he's not so concerned about how is this going to turn out for me what is the what is the result of of this action am i going to save the world am i going to end all the wars no of course not and what well what if you get blinded what if you lose a leg what if you become paralyzed what if you're burned what if you die well I know the reason why I'm going and it's to save people who are being raped and murdered and the villages are being slaughtered. That's why I'm going. And so I'm going to do that because that's the right thing. And of course, I'll be as wise as I can and try to not get myself injured and whatnot, of course. But- I'm going to do it because it's the right thing to do. And I don't really care too much about the result. Um, what could happen to me? I don't take that in consideration so much. I focus on what the right thing to do is. So like, that's one, one way. Uh, but when I think of in the terms of courage, um, a good, a good quote, uh, a good quote from Seneca, um, in that particular way. And yeah, like I said, before we started recording, I read Seneca. Um, I sit down and like do a dedicated reading at least like once a week, um, sometimes multiple, multiple times a week. And then on my to-do lists as I'm working throughout the day, I have Seneca quotes, um, sort of built into my to-do lists. Cause I just, uh, they're, they're just a good reminder of, um, you know, to, to, to pursue wisdom, to pursue a higher, uh, purpose, to pursue a higher thought process and not to just get bogged down by. um, you know, circumstances, but to, uh, to improve yourself constantly through the study of, through the study of philosophy and through the study of ancient wisdom, because, um, you know, the, the stuff that was written 2000 years ago, it applies today. It absolutely applies today. And there's a reason why the writings have survived for thousands of years. Um, and it's because they're, they hold true for, you know, thousands of years of, of people.

• Speaker #1

  you, you, thank you. Thank you for all of that. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for, for, taking the time um thank you for for all that um i could not agree more of course people that are listening know that i'm not being very objective when you talk about seneca is probably the philosopher i quote the most in my book and um and i and i should say what you just mentioned is very important because people sometimes don't um don't get it is that you indeed need to read those principles, those ideas, those essays, should it be from Seneca or anybody, or Marcus Aurelius, not only Stoics, of course, but any people that actually, you know, touch you in your heart and your mind and help you grow. But you have to reread all the time, because you're not the same man as you were yesterday, and you're not the same man as you're going to be tomorrow. So when you read this quote, when you read Seneca, when you read any book, you're a different person reading it. So you got to, you got to grasp on something different. It's going to affect you in a different way. So it's a never ending work on yourself. And, and it, it's, it's very important. And unfortunately it's true that the way we're living today brings us. far and far away from that kind of practice. And that's why I'm trying to share with people that there are things more efficient and more interesting than scrolling on Instagram. And that can actually really, really, really help you out, especially when you're down. Maybe to wrap this up, throughout my journey with Fortitude, I was blessed with hearing great testimonies from my guests who faced very, very different adversities and hardships and everything. But the common trait was always that there's always a way to find happiness and to get a way through. and hearing you with your wife and going back and building a life around it is, is a true message of hope as well. And, and thank you for that. Really sincerely.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been, it's been really great being on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you, Efrain. And, and all the luck and all the blessings for your, for your, for your next adventure.

• Speaker #0

  Excellent. Thank you so much.