Airbrushed Jesus vs. the Real Jesus: A Conversation About True Faith | Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Description

Have you ever wondered whether the Jesus you follow is the real Jesus or a version shaped by your upbringing, culture, or personal expectations? In today’s episode, we’re peeling back the filters and confronting one of the most important questions in our walk with God: Do I know who Jesus truly is?

I’m joined by Pastor Phill Tague, co-founder of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and author of Jesus Be the Centerfold: Choosing Covenant Faith Over Airbrushed Christianity. Phill shares openly about growing up in a legalistic home, wrestling with sin and shame, running from his calling, and realizing he had created a cleaned-up, airbrushed version of Jesus who fit his expectations but not the Jesus revealed in Scripture.

Together, we dive into:

Why so many Christians unknowingly create their own “version” of Jesus
How legalism, performance, and perfectionism distort our view of God
The difference between happiness and joy
Why surrendering to God often starts with discomfort
How vulnerability breaks spiritual chains
Phill’s book and how it became a journey of honesty, courage, and obedience

If you’ve ever said, “I want to know Jesus… but sometimes I’m not sure I really do,” this episode will encourage you, challenge you, and invite you closer to the heart of God.

Learn more about Phill Tague

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Is your idea of Jesus airbrushed or do you know the true Jesus? This week's guest is Phil Haig. He is the pastor of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And man, is he on a mission to share with the world who the true Jesus is. There are so many versions of him, but he is here to shatter all that. and to explain to us the importance of knowing who Jesus truly is, not the version we think he is, but who he really is from the Bible's perspective. My name is Anna Murby. This is Honest Christian Conversation. If this is your first time listening to the podcast, thank you for spending your time with me today. For all returning listeners, I'm glad you're back. After the episode, please leave a review for the podcast if you haven't already done so. If you have, thanks so much. I appreciate reading your encouraging comments. They help me improve the content for you all. Thanks for your support. God bless and enjoy the show. Phil, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker #1
Oh, my privilege. Such a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Yes, I was very excited to talk to you because when you reached out to ask to be a guest, I saw that you were questioning your faith and why you believe the things you believed. And that's how I felt my whole life. So I really resonated with that part of your story. And then I saw in your bio on Podmatch that you have a deep love for your family. And that's very important for men to have. And unfortunately, men have not been uplifted in the world lately to where that is. something they feel they can be proud of. So I also was impressed by that and knew that I was going to have you on. But before we get started on what you do with your ministry and your book, tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So I am the third of four adopted kids. I am the only boy in the family, two older sisters, one younger, and raised in a home that, you know, Faith was part of it. Church was part of it. My dad had a real passion for us to know the Lord, but it was an environment where it got because of his desire, because of his passion, and maybe because of his understanding of faith, it became a fairly legalistic environment. And so I can't speak for my sisters and how they processed it, but I'm wired to want to perform, produce, do well, get the gold star. And so that was my approach to faith was like, how do I? how do I do this thing? I had a real desire to know Jesus deeply, to have a deep relationship with God, but it all was manifested through what am I supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be living? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Sympathico. I completely get that. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So meanwhile, I'm being exposed to things throughout my life. Pornography was a big one for a while in my life. Me too. And so you're on the one hand living this. this life you want. On the other hand, searching for what you're not finding in your faith in other things. And there was this wrestling match, this tension. So I was constantly going back and forth between like wandering, repenting, trying to do the right thing and back and forth. So when God called me to ministry after my senior year of high school, I wanted nothing to do with that. I mean, nothing. I had, I like, I wanted all the good parts of Jesus I knew about, but I I also had a plan for my life. And, you know, I didn't know the plans he had for me, but I knew the plans I had for me. And I was excited about him. And so, but I wanted to obey. There was that, I want to obey. And so I ended up going to college. And my freshman year of college, I was at Oklahoma Wesleyan University and I was studying for ministry and also deciding that I just thought this whole Christianity thing was bunk at the same time. And so I, at the end of that semester or the end of that year, I, I quit ministry. I quit on my faith. I walked away and I just thought about that list and I ran to that and I rebelled for a while. And so I'm a guy who, you know, looked to faith for answers, thought there's got to be more, went searching in the world, found it's not there. And there was a moment near the end of that summer where I had a pretty profound experience where I woke up pretty miserable. I woke up, I didn't remember the party I'd been at the night before. I didn't remember how getting home, I just remember being pretty empty. And I felt like the Holy Spirit spoke into my life and asked me why I thought the answer to hypocrisy was hypocrisy. And it was the first time it occurred to me I've been trying to do religion but never get to know Jesus. And I, I've, I've done, he's my savior, but he's not my Lord. I have, I have a major Lordship issue. I've never surrendered to him. And, and that moment changed my life. It set me on a new path that I'm on now.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I completely resonate with what you were saying from the addiction to pornography to the walking away from the faith and yeah, being. legalistic family, whether it was well-intentioned or not, and just having questions and not feeling like I was doing enough. That was always my thing. I wanted to not make waves. I didn't want to make anyone upset with me. I just wanted to do the right thing. And I wanted God to always be proud of me. But at the same time, I also did the hypocritical thing too. And, you know, I was looking at pornography, but I was judging the people in the videos. I was judging other people for their sins. And yeah, I... completely agree and resonate with everything you said. So you denied the calling that God seemed to have had on your heart to be a pastor back when you were younger, but you are a pastor now of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. So when did you finally allow God to be the lordship of your life and listen to that call?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's been an ongoing journey. So going back to that post high school experience, I realized in that moment that God had to be more in my life. But I kind of assumed at that point, well, I know enough about God that he'll forgive me. But the ministry thing, that's over. And I remember my youth pastor at the time, I was one semester into my sophomore year. I was partway through the semester. He called me to his office and he said, what are you doing here? And I said, what do you mean? What am I doing here? You called this meeting. And he said, no, no, I mean, like, what are you doing in Sioux Falls? Why are you not following God's call? And it never occurred to me that God's forgiveness was so complete that he would still have that calling on my life. And so I ended up transferring back to Oklahoma Wesleyan second semester of my sophomore year, following through with that call. But there's been ups and downs. You know, when God called me into ministry, I didn't want to do that. When God called me to my first pastorate in North Carolina at the small church, that was not my dream job. when he called me to step out of youth ministry and plant a church. I didn't want to do that either. You know, every step of the journey has been like, oh, yeah, God, I'm surrendered. I'm totally surrendered. And he's like, well, how about this? And I'm like, well, but what about that? And I have to it's like I have to re-wrestle down his lordship in my life because left to myself, I just take over control.
Speaker #0
It's hard when God calls you to do something you don't want to do.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
calls us to do things we do want to do. I mean, think of all the people who are like, I have all these grand plans I want to do for the Lord, for his kingdom. How often do they get to do those things? He always calls us to do things we don't want to do.
Speaker #1
The annoying thing about how God works is like, I know I need to be more patient. And so I pray for patience and God gives me opportunities to be patient.
Speaker #0
Yes, yes.
Speaker #1
And I'm like, oh, this whole thing's a refinement thing. Yeah. See, I wanted it to be like a rewards thing. Like I follow these rules, I get these rewards. And it's actually not that it's actually him shaping me into his image instead of me creating an image of him that works for my for my life. And so, yeah, God's never asked me to do something that I was excited about when he asked. I would in hindsight, I can look in the mirror and go, I'm so glad I made the choices I made. I'm so glad I'm on his path. It truly is better. but when he asks it, it just, I mean, the last time God, the last thing God said to me, honestly, in my prayer life was, hey, I've got something for you coming and you're going to hate it.
Speaker #0
And I'm like, well,
Speaker #1
thanks for at least being honest with me. You know, this is great. This is great that we, so I'm ready. I'm waiting for, there's something coming down the pipe and I don't want to do it. And he's already told me, but whatever it is, I'll do it because I've learned enough that it's never worth it to run the other way. Running from his will is so much. less meaningful than being in the center of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. I, God's got a new thing that he's planning on doing with me and the podcast for the next season. I've gone through three different ideas that I had for it and thought I had it all. This is what he wants me to do. And then a sermon happened at our church, which confirmed something that I had already felt a few days earlier was and dismissed immediately as no, I'm not ready for that. And. The sermon, I started crying because I really felt like God was solidifying, no, you will be okay. And I'm like, no, I won't. I really can't do this. So, yeah, I'm definitely nervous about that. And that would probably be my God saying, you got something coming and you're really not going to like it.
Speaker #1
And that's so much a faith for so many people. We want God's benefits on our terms. And that's just not how it works. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Ouch. That's yeah, that's absolutely true. We treat them like a genie. We may not intend to, but I know I have. And I've tried to be more intentional on not doing that. or at the very least saying after I'm done demanding, quote unquote, the things that I want, I will say, but in. all I want what you want done. So please help me to be accepting of that.
Speaker #1
Yeah. One of the major pictures I paint in our book is this, when we create Jesus in the image that works for us, we end up holding him responsible for promises he never made, being angry when he doesn't keep promises we actually made to ourselves, and then questioning his goodness because he didn't live up to the picture we painted in our minds, but that's never who he was in the first place.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yep, absolutely right. And I know I am guilty of trying to hold him to promises he never made. And I'm sure there's listeners right now who are slumping in their chairs because they've also been there. Pretty sure we all have been there at one point. Maybe it was the way we were raised and how we were taught to look at God. Maybe it's just, you know, we've heard that he loves, he cares about us, he wants what's good for us. So we think, well, if I really want this new whatever, he must want it too, because it'll make me happy. It'll make him happy. And we've got that all wrong and backwards.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, one of the things we try to teach our people at our church is that God's primary desire is not that you would be happy. It's that you would be holy. And when you choose to follow him and when he refines you, you will find a joy that so exceeds happiness. Happiness is... I mean, by the very word that she used, happiness is based on our happenings. So if things are happening the way that I like, I feel happy. Joy is despite circumstance. And the only true joy is found in the holiness that can be found in him. But we chase happiness instead of holiness. And that's part of the problem.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So how long have you been the pastor of Ransom Church? And did you, did you? build the church or was it already established and they asked you to be the pastor?
Speaker #1
Yeah, no, my wife and I are co-founders. We planted the church in March of 2009 with one other couple. That's a whole story about a wrestling match with God. And it took over a year for us to say yes. But once we said yes, just time after time and his hand was on it. And he gave us a very clear vision. We had a weekend where we prayed about the church. And we said, what is this even going to be? Like, why this church? We agreed, OK, you pray about it. I'll pray about it. And on Sunday night, we'll come back together. We'll talk about it. And we're not, don't talk the rest of the week about it. We're going to. So I was praying and I felt like the Lord said, I want you to set captives free. And that was all he gave me that weekend. And so we came back on Sunday and I let my wife go first because I was absolutely convinced that whatever she had was not going to be as great as setting captives free. And so I was like, going to let her go. And I was going to be like, that's cute. But how about this? Boom. you know, and so I said, you go first. And she said, well, God only gave me one thing. He really wants us to set captives free. And I went, that's pretty on the nose. And so we began to wrestle that out. And out of that came our vision and values for the church that we want to help people worship free of inhibition, live free of sin, serve free of self so they can be set free to be who God made them to be. We want to plant a church that's holistically focused on not just salvation, but your whole identity and holiness and walking towards him.
Speaker #0
So yeah,
Speaker #1
we planted in March 09 and God did some miraculous things and we've been leading it for now 16 plus years. It's been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but also such an adventure. At 18, out of our church, we launched the Awaken Church Planner Network, which was going to just start as a ministry of our church and ended up, it's grown so much now that it's outgrown us and I'm on the board of that church planner network. It's just been really, really fun to watch God, see what God can do with obedience.
Speaker #0
Hey friends, I wanted to tell you about my personal experience with Exodus Strong. If you aren't sure what it's about, it's a biblical and holistic supplement that has seven herbs and that's it. This is an amazing product. Since I have been taking it, I have not felt anger towards my children or my husband nearly as much as I used to. The anger fits are practically gone. Hallelujah. I know my family is singing those praises. I feel like a completely different woman. I feel more relaxed, more even-keeled. I'm sleeping better. feeling more focused, which is great because I'm learning a second language. And I just overall feel like a better person than I did before when I was full of my anger. And I am so excited to share this with you. The prayer guide that comes along with it is also a blessing that keeps you close to God. I feel more close to God since I have been more regulated in my emotional state. If you need help focusing, if you need help with your stress levels, if you need help with your blood sugar levels, this product is going to be great for you. I encourage you to check it out. The link will be in the show notes. And if you want to know more about the founder of Exodus Strong, go back and listen to the episode that I did for the podcast with Rob Rene. You are going to be so blessed.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. He does some amazing things. one All he gets from us is a, okay, God, I'll listen to you. That's like our little tiny mustard seed of faith,
Speaker #0
I guess. Just, okay, fine. I'll do what you want me to do. And then he shows up and he does miraculous things. And then that just increases our faith and our love of him because we know that he does have good plans for us and we may not understand what they are at the moment. but we can trust him because he's always with us. And he does, at the end of the day, want what's best for us. We just have to submit what our best is to what he knows is best.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And the thing about that faith is it's got to be a faith in him. Like if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in myself, or if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in a picture of God that exists only in my head, and then I wonder why he doesn't, isn't faithful. He never promised that. When you read that story, you read about the disciples and they said, we didn't have enough faith. What was the faith in what they could do? And he said, if you had even the smallest bit of faith in me, mountains could move because I'm the one who can move mountains. And so I think that orienting of our faith on him is so critical.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for bringing up that mustard seed of faith verse as well, because I think there are some Christians who kind of misconstrue it. probably they're not doing it intentionally, but they don't understand that that's not what it means to have faith in you can do this, but to have that mustard seed of faith in what God can do. And that just hearing you say it just then made so much more sense to me of what that verse meant. Just hearing it in that they had faith in what they could do. They didn't have faith in God. If they did, then they would have. have been able to do what they were saying. Why can't we do this? So that was an eye-opener moment for me, and I'm sure others felt the same. Yeah. So tell us about your book. What is it about? What is it called?
Speaker #1
So my book is called Jesus Be the Centerfold, Choosing Covenant Faith Over Airbrushed Christianity. I never set out to write a book. It is an exercise in obedience. it took me over two years of the Holy Spirit nudging me for me to start to take that call seriously. He actually had, at one point, he had made it pretty clear. I said, well, what do I even write a book about? And I took some brainstorming time and he gave me the whole outline for the book. And I went, oh, I know what this book is about. And I was still like, no, I'm not going to write it. And five minutes after I said that, a gal in my church texted me and said, hey, I don't usually do this, but the Holy Spirit prompted me to text you and ask if you're writing a book. And that happened six times that day. phone calls, emails. And at the end of the day, I was like, I still had the audacity to be like, I'll sleep on it. So I woke up the next morning and I was doing a Spanish lesson in the Duolingo language learning app. And it said, translate these sentences. We should write a book together. We're writing a book this summer. Are you going to write a book? And I was like, yeah. And I was like, listen, timeout, Holy Spirit. So I finally was like, okay, I'm going to write this. So the book is, um, I. I mentioned I was exposed to pornography young. This is not a book about pornography, but pornography became a metaphor in my life. What I realized in my battle with pornography was that while lust was a part of it, while it was like an outcropping of it, the actual issue was a desire for intimacy without the cost of intimacy. I wanted all the good benefits of a feeling. I didn't want the cost of a relationship. And what that has become in my life is a just a perfect metaphor for what we've done with Jesus. We've airbrushed Jesus. We know the images in our head is not real, but what we want is all the benefits of faith with none of the cost of an intimate relationship with God.
Speaker #0
And there's,
Speaker #1
yeah, there's a thousand different versions of that in each of our lives, areas where we compromise, where we read scripture and we swipe right on the stuff we like and we swipe left on the stuff we don't like. And we, we. build a relationship that works for us. But then the minute we feel like God's not keeping his under the bargain, we're like, my faith is not strong. I'm out. I don't know if I believe this. And what he's calling us into is a covenant. And so I use, I've been married 24 years, almost 25 years, intimacy with my wife. The way that I define intimacy in the book is, it's not about sexuality at all. Intimacy is about being fully known and still chosen. So whether that's mentally, physically, like I'm 47 now. My body does not look like it did when I got married, right? And when my wife sees me in an intimate setting and fully chooses me anyway, that increases intimacy in our relationship because she's loving me as I am. When I mess up and I treat her poorly and she forgives me, she's loving me as I am. That's the relationship God wants with us. He wants a relationship where we can know that we're fully exposed before him in all our sin and all our brokenness and that he's still choosing us. And he's inviting us into a covenant relationship. And so the book's just a journey, my journey of wrestling with that.
Speaker #0
Beautiful. I love it. And I absolutely agree. As soon as I saw the title of your book, The Airbrushed Christianity, it just made me think of social media, especially Instagram, and how people will put the best parts of themselves up there. Nobody's really putting. today was a sucky day. I yelled at my kid for like the 90th time. Some people might do that, but they're not doing it often. And the reason why is because people will probably jump on them and criticize and all these other things. So they feel like they can't be real and honest with people, which, you know, is a catch 22.
Speaker #1
And there's a lot of different ways. Like when you read scripture, so you have the Pharisees who couldn't. see Jesus for who he was because they had an airbrushed picture of him that was about rules and regulations. You had the Jewish people who couldn't see Jesus for who he was because he came to free them from their sins, but they had a picture of a Messiah that would be a Savior who would save them from the Romans and get them out of captivity. And we do the same thing. You can airbrush Jesus legalistically. You can airbrush Jesus by giving yourself license. And he stands in the middle and he says, I'm not either of those things. You can airbrush Jesus to be a liberal. You can airbrush him to be a conservative. And he stands in the middle. He says, I'm more than that. I'm more than that. I just think there's so many places we do this in our life. And it was a fun wrestling match. Like I said, I never planned to write it, but it's been a really fun journey to go on to go. I just want people to know the real Jesus. I think there are so many Christians. I think churches are full of people who would go to church, who would call themselves Christians, who do not have lordship with Jesus. figured out, they have not surrendered, who have this feeling of this can't be all there is to faith. And I would say there is more. Jesus is more than you think. And he's waiting for you to discover him.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Which chapter was your favorite to write?
Speaker #1
Oh, man. So when I started writing it, my favorite to write was prostitute. It's about prostituting the church. There's a title. Yeah. I love saying things that hit people. where they are, but cause them to do it in a way that's grace-filled and cause them to go, man, I really need to wrestle with that. What ended up being my favorite was the last three chapters, which started as a chapter that turned to two chapters that turned to three chapters, where I trace God's attempts from Adam and Eve all the way to Jesus of covenants with his people over and over again. And I think that was my favorite because not only did I get to trace those covenants and see my own brokenness in the mistakes that other people made, but then you get to the end and there's this point where Scripture talks about Jesus wanting a spotless bride, but washing her pure himself with his blood. And it was maybe the first time I understood it this way, that God loves us so much that Jesus said, not only will I do my part, I'll do your part too. And all I ask of you is just to choose me. Just this profound and powerful lengths that he went to out of his love for us. So that ended up being... That section ended up being kind of my favorite.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I can see why. Deep connection and it probably strengthened your relationship with him even more after reading all that and writing it. So which one was very difficult for you to write? Maybe because it was a spiritual area he was working on you in.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I mean, I would say there wasn't one chapter. It was how he asked me to write the book. This was the most vulnerable thing I've ever done. I tell it like it is. I tell the truth about myself and my struggles, and I share that with the world. And then we gave the book to our whole church. as a gift. Everybody got a free copy. And there's a lot of vulnerability in putting yourself out there. But one of the things I've found is that Satan loves to keep us isolated. If he can keep us afraid and isolated and playing the victim and keep us in that cycle, he can keep us bound up for a long time. And there are eight billion people doing life by themselves, isolated from one another in a world full of people who are going through the exact same thing. And the biggest lie the enemy tells us is you're the only one. You're the only one struggling with that. Don't tell anybody. And when you say out loud what you're struggling with, it takes the power away from it and allows everyone else to go, me too. And that draws us together. It doesn't tear us apart. I think the whole thing was an exercise. It was incredibly difficult to be that vulnerable. But as I was, the number of stories that people have read it who have come back and said, if you had not said that, I would never have been able to be honest with myself about this thing. Thank you for your vulnerability has been a reward in and of itself.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's something about vulnerability and honesty and sharing our testimony with people that it just resonates with people. Like you said, Satan likes to keep us thinking we're the only ones, that nobody can know this, but that's not true. And when someone steps out of their comfort zone to be honest and vulnerable, it breaks those chains and it gives another person a chance to do the same. And then they break chains for other people. And then it's just this cycle of people getting set free because they realize they aren't the only ones that they can talk about this. They can share these parts of themselves that they've been hiding, that they've been trying to fix on their own. And I think that's why it's very powerful that we share our testimonies and why it's said in the Bible that we need to by the word of our testimony.
Speaker #1
Yeah, really powerful. There's nothing, you know, people say, I don't, I don't. know enough about the Bible to share the gospel, what you need to share is your story. You know, if you have, if you know enough of the gospel to be like the blind man who was like, I don't know who Jesus is. I just know I was blind and now I see he healed me. No one can argue with the testimony of a man born blind who stand there and seeing, and no one can argue with the testimony of the person you were and the person you become and how God has changed your life. And there's just nothing more powerful than the ability to say, here's who I was, Then I met Jesus. Here's what's different. And if you can do that, you are ready to share the gospel with anyone.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's an encouragement, ladies and gentlemen. Just share your testimony. It's not hard. Well, Phil, where can people get a hold of you if they want to talk to you more, if they want to maybe visit your church if they're local to the Sioux Falls area, or if they want to get your book?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So if you want to check us out, if you check out ransom. dot church. You'll find me, my email, all of our sermons. You can follow the teachings and stuff like that. If you want to know more about the story of the book, I do have another website, philtag.com, that you can go check out. What's great about that website, it tells a little more about why I wrote the book, but then it has a free study guide. So if you find the book meaningful, you can just download the free PDF study guide and go through it with some friends and wrestle with some questions. The book is available on Amazon. My website will link you to Amazon. It's available hardcover, softcover, and Kindle. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Awesome. Well, thank you again, Phil, for coming on and having this conversation with me and encouraging my listeners the importance of being honest, sharing your testimony, and understanding who the true Jesus is, not the one we think he is.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Friends, did you enjoy the episode? I'm so glad to hear it. Leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or my website, honestchristianconversations.com. Your reviews help boost the podcast in the ratings. So let's make these honest conversations more accessible to those who need them. Be sure to follow the show so you never miss another episode. And while you're doing that, why not share the podcast with someone? Thank you for spending time with me today. I look forward to our next conversation.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

Host Ana Murby leads faith-based conversations about addiction recovery, obedience to Christ, healing from legalism, discernment, and personal testimony—creating space for thoughtful dialogue about Christianity, truth, critical thinking, and spiritual growth.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Together, we dive into:

Why so many Christians unknowingly create their own “version” of Jesus
How legalism, performance, and perfectionism distort our view of God
The difference between happiness and joy
Why surrendering to God often starts with discomfort
How vulnerability breaks spiritual chains
Phill’s book and how it became a journey of honesty, courage, and obedience

If you’ve ever said, “I want to know Jesus… but sometimes I’m not sure I really do,” this episode will encourage you, challenge you, and invite you closer to the heart of God.

Learn more about Phill Tague

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👉 Leave a comment or write a quick review

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Is your idea of Jesus airbrushed or do you know the true Jesus? This week's guest is Phil Haig. He is the pastor of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And man, is he on a mission to share with the world who the true Jesus is. There are so many versions of him, but he is here to shatter all that. and to explain to us the importance of knowing who Jesus truly is, not the version we think he is, but who he really is from the Bible's perspective. My name is Anna Murby. This is Honest Christian Conversation. If this is your first time listening to the podcast, thank you for spending your time with me today. For all returning listeners, I'm glad you're back. After the episode, please leave a review for the podcast if you haven't already done so. If you have, thanks so much. I appreciate reading your encouraging comments. They help me improve the content for you all. Thanks for your support. God bless and enjoy the show. Phil, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker #1
Oh, my privilege. Such a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Yes, I was very excited to talk to you because when you reached out to ask to be a guest, I saw that you were questioning your faith and why you believe the things you believed. And that's how I felt my whole life. So I really resonated with that part of your story. And then I saw in your bio on Podmatch that you have a deep love for your family. And that's very important for men to have. And unfortunately, men have not been uplifted in the world lately to where that is. something they feel they can be proud of. So I also was impressed by that and knew that I was going to have you on. But before we get started on what you do with your ministry and your book, tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So I am the third of four adopted kids. I am the only boy in the family, two older sisters, one younger, and raised in a home that, you know, Faith was part of it. Church was part of it. My dad had a real passion for us to know the Lord, but it was an environment where it got because of his desire, because of his passion, and maybe because of his understanding of faith, it became a fairly legalistic environment. And so I can't speak for my sisters and how they processed it, but I'm wired to want to perform, produce, do well, get the gold star. And so that was my approach to faith was like, how do I? how do I do this thing? I had a real desire to know Jesus deeply, to have a deep relationship with God, but it all was manifested through what am I supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be living? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Sympathico. I completely get that. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So meanwhile, I'm being exposed to things throughout my life. Pornography was a big one for a while in my life. Me too. And so you're on the one hand living this. this life you want. On the other hand, searching for what you're not finding in your faith in other things. And there was this wrestling match, this tension. So I was constantly going back and forth between like wandering, repenting, trying to do the right thing and back and forth. So when God called me to ministry after my senior year of high school, I wanted nothing to do with that. I mean, nothing. I had, I like, I wanted all the good parts of Jesus I knew about, but I I also had a plan for my life. And, you know, I didn't know the plans he had for me, but I knew the plans I had for me. And I was excited about him. And so, but I wanted to obey. There was that, I want to obey. And so I ended up going to college. And my freshman year of college, I was at Oklahoma Wesleyan University and I was studying for ministry and also deciding that I just thought this whole Christianity thing was bunk at the same time. And so I, at the end of that semester or the end of that year, I, I quit ministry. I quit on my faith. I walked away and I just thought about that list and I ran to that and I rebelled for a while. And so I'm a guy who, you know, looked to faith for answers, thought there's got to be more, went searching in the world, found it's not there. And there was a moment near the end of that summer where I had a pretty profound experience where I woke up pretty miserable. I woke up, I didn't remember the party I'd been at the night before. I didn't remember how getting home, I just remember being pretty empty. And I felt like the Holy Spirit spoke into my life and asked me why I thought the answer to hypocrisy was hypocrisy. And it was the first time it occurred to me I've been trying to do religion but never get to know Jesus. And I, I've, I've done, he's my savior, but he's not my Lord. I have, I have a major Lordship issue. I've never surrendered to him. And, and that moment changed my life. It set me on a new path that I'm on now.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I completely resonate with what you were saying from the addiction to pornography to the walking away from the faith and yeah, being. legalistic family, whether it was well-intentioned or not, and just having questions and not feeling like I was doing enough. That was always my thing. I wanted to not make waves. I didn't want to make anyone upset with me. I just wanted to do the right thing. And I wanted God to always be proud of me. But at the same time, I also did the hypocritical thing too. And, you know, I was looking at pornography, but I was judging the people in the videos. I was judging other people for their sins. And yeah, I... completely agree and resonate with everything you said. So you denied the calling that God seemed to have had on your heart to be a pastor back when you were younger, but you are a pastor now of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. So when did you finally allow God to be the lordship of your life and listen to that call?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's been an ongoing journey. So going back to that post high school experience, I realized in that moment that God had to be more in my life. But I kind of assumed at that point, well, I know enough about God that he'll forgive me. But the ministry thing, that's over. And I remember my youth pastor at the time, I was one semester into my sophomore year. I was partway through the semester. He called me to his office and he said, what are you doing here? And I said, what do you mean? What am I doing here? You called this meeting. And he said, no, no, I mean, like, what are you doing in Sioux Falls? Why are you not following God's call? And it never occurred to me that God's forgiveness was so complete that he would still have that calling on my life. And so I ended up transferring back to Oklahoma Wesleyan second semester of my sophomore year, following through with that call. But there's been ups and downs. You know, when God called me into ministry, I didn't want to do that. When God called me to my first pastorate in North Carolina at the small church, that was not my dream job. when he called me to step out of youth ministry and plant a church. I didn't want to do that either. You know, every step of the journey has been like, oh, yeah, God, I'm surrendered. I'm totally surrendered. And he's like, well, how about this? And I'm like, well, but what about that? And I have to it's like I have to re-wrestle down his lordship in my life because left to myself, I just take over control.
Speaker #0
It's hard when God calls you to do something you don't want to do.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
calls us to do things we do want to do. I mean, think of all the people who are like, I have all these grand plans I want to do for the Lord, for his kingdom. How often do they get to do those things? He always calls us to do things we don't want to do.
Speaker #1
The annoying thing about how God works is like, I know I need to be more patient. And so I pray for patience and God gives me opportunities to be patient.
Speaker #0
Yes, yes.
Speaker #1
And I'm like, oh, this whole thing's a refinement thing. Yeah. See, I wanted it to be like a rewards thing. Like I follow these rules, I get these rewards. And it's actually not that it's actually him shaping me into his image instead of me creating an image of him that works for my for my life. And so, yeah, God's never asked me to do something that I was excited about when he asked. I would in hindsight, I can look in the mirror and go, I'm so glad I made the choices I made. I'm so glad I'm on his path. It truly is better. but when he asks it, it just, I mean, the last time God, the last thing God said to me, honestly, in my prayer life was, hey, I've got something for you coming and you're going to hate it.
Speaker #0
And I'm like, well,
Speaker #1
thanks for at least being honest with me. You know, this is great. This is great that we, so I'm ready. I'm waiting for, there's something coming down the pipe and I don't want to do it. And he's already told me, but whatever it is, I'll do it because I've learned enough that it's never worth it to run the other way. Running from his will is so much. less meaningful than being in the center of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. I, God's got a new thing that he's planning on doing with me and the podcast for the next season. I've gone through three different ideas that I had for it and thought I had it all. This is what he wants me to do. And then a sermon happened at our church, which confirmed something that I had already felt a few days earlier was and dismissed immediately as no, I'm not ready for that. And. The sermon, I started crying because I really felt like God was solidifying, no, you will be okay. And I'm like, no, I won't. I really can't do this. So, yeah, I'm definitely nervous about that. And that would probably be my God saying, you got something coming and you're really not going to like it.
Speaker #1
And that's so much a faith for so many people. We want God's benefits on our terms. And that's just not how it works. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Ouch. That's yeah, that's absolutely true. We treat them like a genie. We may not intend to, but I know I have. And I've tried to be more intentional on not doing that. or at the very least saying after I'm done demanding, quote unquote, the things that I want, I will say, but in. all I want what you want done. So please help me to be accepting of that.
Speaker #1
Yeah. One of the major pictures I paint in our book is this, when we create Jesus in the image that works for us, we end up holding him responsible for promises he never made, being angry when he doesn't keep promises we actually made to ourselves, and then questioning his goodness because he didn't live up to the picture we painted in our minds, but that's never who he was in the first place.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yep, absolutely right. And I know I am guilty of trying to hold him to promises he never made. And I'm sure there's listeners right now who are slumping in their chairs because they've also been there. Pretty sure we all have been there at one point. Maybe it was the way we were raised and how we were taught to look at God. Maybe it's just, you know, we've heard that he loves, he cares about us, he wants what's good for us. So we think, well, if I really want this new whatever, he must want it too, because it'll make me happy. It'll make him happy. And we've got that all wrong and backwards.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, one of the things we try to teach our people at our church is that God's primary desire is not that you would be happy. It's that you would be holy. And when you choose to follow him and when he refines you, you will find a joy that so exceeds happiness. Happiness is... I mean, by the very word that she used, happiness is based on our happenings. So if things are happening the way that I like, I feel happy. Joy is despite circumstance. And the only true joy is found in the holiness that can be found in him. But we chase happiness instead of holiness. And that's part of the problem.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So how long have you been the pastor of Ransom Church? And did you, did you? build the church or was it already established and they asked you to be the pastor?
Speaker #1
Yeah, no, my wife and I are co-founders. We planted the church in March of 2009 with one other couple. That's a whole story about a wrestling match with God. And it took over a year for us to say yes. But once we said yes, just time after time and his hand was on it. And he gave us a very clear vision. We had a weekend where we prayed about the church. And we said, what is this even going to be? Like, why this church? We agreed, OK, you pray about it. I'll pray about it. And on Sunday night, we'll come back together. We'll talk about it. And we're not, don't talk the rest of the week about it. We're going to. So I was praying and I felt like the Lord said, I want you to set captives free. And that was all he gave me that weekend. And so we came back on Sunday and I let my wife go first because I was absolutely convinced that whatever she had was not going to be as great as setting captives free. And so I was like, going to let her go. And I was going to be like, that's cute. But how about this? Boom. you know, and so I said, you go first. And she said, well, God only gave me one thing. He really wants us to set captives free. And I went, that's pretty on the nose. And so we began to wrestle that out. And out of that came our vision and values for the church that we want to help people worship free of inhibition, live free of sin, serve free of self so they can be set free to be who God made them to be. We want to plant a church that's holistically focused on not just salvation, but your whole identity and holiness and walking towards him.
Speaker #0
So yeah,
Speaker #1
we planted in March 09 and God did some miraculous things and we've been leading it for now 16 plus years. It's been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but also such an adventure. At 18, out of our church, we launched the Awaken Church Planner Network, which was going to just start as a ministry of our church and ended up, it's grown so much now that it's outgrown us and I'm on the board of that church planner network. It's just been really, really fun to watch God, see what God can do with obedience.
Speaker #0
Hey friends, I wanted to tell you about my personal experience with Exodus Strong. If you aren't sure what it's about, it's a biblical and holistic supplement that has seven herbs and that's it. This is an amazing product. Since I have been taking it, I have not felt anger towards my children or my husband nearly as much as I used to. The anger fits are practically gone. Hallelujah. I know my family is singing those praises. I feel like a completely different woman. I feel more relaxed, more even-keeled. I'm sleeping better. feeling more focused, which is great because I'm learning a second language. And I just overall feel like a better person than I did before when I was full of my anger. And I am so excited to share this with you. The prayer guide that comes along with it is also a blessing that keeps you close to God. I feel more close to God since I have been more regulated in my emotional state. If you need help focusing, if you need help with your stress levels, if you need help with your blood sugar levels, this product is going to be great for you. I encourage you to check it out. The link will be in the show notes. And if you want to know more about the founder of Exodus Strong, go back and listen to the episode that I did for the podcast with Rob Rene. You are going to be so blessed.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. He does some amazing things. one All he gets from us is a, okay, God, I'll listen to you. That's like our little tiny mustard seed of faith,
Speaker #0
I guess. Just, okay, fine. I'll do what you want me to do. And then he shows up and he does miraculous things. And then that just increases our faith and our love of him because we know that he does have good plans for us and we may not understand what they are at the moment. but we can trust him because he's always with us. And he does, at the end of the day, want what's best for us. We just have to submit what our best is to what he knows is best.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And the thing about that faith is it's got to be a faith in him. Like if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in myself, or if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in a picture of God that exists only in my head, and then I wonder why he doesn't, isn't faithful. He never promised that. When you read that story, you read about the disciples and they said, we didn't have enough faith. What was the faith in what they could do? And he said, if you had even the smallest bit of faith in me, mountains could move because I'm the one who can move mountains. And so I think that orienting of our faith on him is so critical.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for bringing up that mustard seed of faith verse as well, because I think there are some Christians who kind of misconstrue it. probably they're not doing it intentionally, but they don't understand that that's not what it means to have faith in you can do this, but to have that mustard seed of faith in what God can do. And that just hearing you say it just then made so much more sense to me of what that verse meant. Just hearing it in that they had faith in what they could do. They didn't have faith in God. If they did, then they would have. have been able to do what they were saying. Why can't we do this? So that was an eye-opener moment for me, and I'm sure others felt the same. Yeah. So tell us about your book. What is it about? What is it called?
Speaker #1
So my book is called Jesus Be the Centerfold, Choosing Covenant Faith Over Airbrushed Christianity. I never set out to write a book. It is an exercise in obedience. it took me over two years of the Holy Spirit nudging me for me to start to take that call seriously. He actually had, at one point, he had made it pretty clear. I said, well, what do I even write a book about? And I took some brainstorming time and he gave me the whole outline for the book. And I went, oh, I know what this book is about. And I was still like, no, I'm not going to write it. And five minutes after I said that, a gal in my church texted me and said, hey, I don't usually do this, but the Holy Spirit prompted me to text you and ask if you're writing a book. And that happened six times that day. phone calls, emails. And at the end of the day, I was like, I still had the audacity to be like, I'll sleep on it. So I woke up the next morning and I was doing a Spanish lesson in the Duolingo language learning app. And it said, translate these sentences. We should write a book together. We're writing a book this summer. Are you going to write a book? And I was like, yeah. And I was like, listen, timeout, Holy Spirit. So I finally was like, okay, I'm going to write this. So the book is, um, I. I mentioned I was exposed to pornography young. This is not a book about pornography, but pornography became a metaphor in my life. What I realized in my battle with pornography was that while lust was a part of it, while it was like an outcropping of it, the actual issue was a desire for intimacy without the cost of intimacy. I wanted all the good benefits of a feeling. I didn't want the cost of a relationship. And what that has become in my life is a just a perfect metaphor for what we've done with Jesus. We've airbrushed Jesus. We know the images in our head is not real, but what we want is all the benefits of faith with none of the cost of an intimate relationship with God.
Speaker #0
And there's,
Speaker #1
yeah, there's a thousand different versions of that in each of our lives, areas where we compromise, where we read scripture and we swipe right on the stuff we like and we swipe left on the stuff we don't like. And we, we. build a relationship that works for us. But then the minute we feel like God's not keeping his under the bargain, we're like, my faith is not strong. I'm out. I don't know if I believe this. And what he's calling us into is a covenant. And so I use, I've been married 24 years, almost 25 years, intimacy with my wife. The way that I define intimacy in the book is, it's not about sexuality at all. Intimacy is about being fully known and still chosen. So whether that's mentally, physically, like I'm 47 now. My body does not look like it did when I got married, right? And when my wife sees me in an intimate setting and fully chooses me anyway, that increases intimacy in our relationship because she's loving me as I am. When I mess up and I treat her poorly and she forgives me, she's loving me as I am. That's the relationship God wants with us. He wants a relationship where we can know that we're fully exposed before him in all our sin and all our brokenness and that he's still choosing us. And he's inviting us into a covenant relationship. And so the book's just a journey, my journey of wrestling with that.
Speaker #0
Beautiful. I love it. And I absolutely agree. As soon as I saw the title of your book, The Airbrushed Christianity, it just made me think of social media, especially Instagram, and how people will put the best parts of themselves up there. Nobody's really putting. today was a sucky day. I yelled at my kid for like the 90th time. Some people might do that, but they're not doing it often. And the reason why is because people will probably jump on them and criticize and all these other things. So they feel like they can't be real and honest with people, which, you know, is a catch 22.
Speaker #1
And there's a lot of different ways. Like when you read scripture, so you have the Pharisees who couldn't. see Jesus for who he was because they had an airbrushed picture of him that was about rules and regulations. You had the Jewish people who couldn't see Jesus for who he was because he came to free them from their sins, but they had a picture of a Messiah that would be a Savior who would save them from the Romans and get them out of captivity. And we do the same thing. You can airbrush Jesus legalistically. You can airbrush Jesus by giving yourself license. And he stands in the middle and he says, I'm not either of those things. You can airbrush Jesus to be a liberal. You can airbrush him to be a conservative. And he stands in the middle. He says, I'm more than that. I'm more than that. I just think there's so many places we do this in our life. And it was a fun wrestling match. Like I said, I never planned to write it, but it's been a really fun journey to go on to go. I just want people to know the real Jesus. I think there are so many Christians. I think churches are full of people who would go to church, who would call themselves Christians, who do not have lordship with Jesus. figured out, they have not surrendered, who have this feeling of this can't be all there is to faith. And I would say there is more. Jesus is more than you think. And he's waiting for you to discover him.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Which chapter was your favorite to write?
Speaker #1
Oh, man. So when I started writing it, my favorite to write was prostitute. It's about prostituting the church. There's a title. Yeah. I love saying things that hit people. where they are, but cause them to do it in a way that's grace-filled and cause them to go, man, I really need to wrestle with that. What ended up being my favorite was the last three chapters, which started as a chapter that turned to two chapters that turned to three chapters, where I trace God's attempts from Adam and Eve all the way to Jesus of covenants with his people over and over again. And I think that was my favorite because not only did I get to trace those covenants and see my own brokenness in the mistakes that other people made, but then you get to the end and there's this point where Scripture talks about Jesus wanting a spotless bride, but washing her pure himself with his blood. And it was maybe the first time I understood it this way, that God loves us so much that Jesus said, not only will I do my part, I'll do your part too. And all I ask of you is just to choose me. Just this profound and powerful lengths that he went to out of his love for us. So that ended up being... That section ended up being kind of my favorite.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I can see why. Deep connection and it probably strengthened your relationship with him even more after reading all that and writing it. So which one was very difficult for you to write? Maybe because it was a spiritual area he was working on you in.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I mean, I would say there wasn't one chapter. It was how he asked me to write the book. This was the most vulnerable thing I've ever done. I tell it like it is. I tell the truth about myself and my struggles, and I share that with the world. And then we gave the book to our whole church. as a gift. Everybody got a free copy. And there's a lot of vulnerability in putting yourself out there. But one of the things I've found is that Satan loves to keep us isolated. If he can keep us afraid and isolated and playing the victim and keep us in that cycle, he can keep us bound up for a long time. And there are eight billion people doing life by themselves, isolated from one another in a world full of people who are going through the exact same thing. And the biggest lie the enemy tells us is you're the only one. You're the only one struggling with that. Don't tell anybody. And when you say out loud what you're struggling with, it takes the power away from it and allows everyone else to go, me too. And that draws us together. It doesn't tear us apart. I think the whole thing was an exercise. It was incredibly difficult to be that vulnerable. But as I was, the number of stories that people have read it who have come back and said, if you had not said that, I would never have been able to be honest with myself about this thing. Thank you for your vulnerability has been a reward in and of itself.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's something about vulnerability and honesty and sharing our testimony with people that it just resonates with people. Like you said, Satan likes to keep us thinking we're the only ones, that nobody can know this, but that's not true. And when someone steps out of their comfort zone to be honest and vulnerable, it breaks those chains and it gives another person a chance to do the same. And then they break chains for other people. And then it's just this cycle of people getting set free because they realize they aren't the only ones that they can talk about this. They can share these parts of themselves that they've been hiding, that they've been trying to fix on their own. And I think that's why it's very powerful that we share our testimonies and why it's said in the Bible that we need to by the word of our testimony.
Speaker #1
Yeah, really powerful. There's nothing, you know, people say, I don't, I don't. know enough about the Bible to share the gospel, what you need to share is your story. You know, if you have, if you know enough of the gospel to be like the blind man who was like, I don't know who Jesus is. I just know I was blind and now I see he healed me. No one can argue with the testimony of a man born blind who stand there and seeing, and no one can argue with the testimony of the person you were and the person you become and how God has changed your life. And there's just nothing more powerful than the ability to say, here's who I was, Then I met Jesus. Here's what's different. And if you can do that, you are ready to share the gospel with anyone.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's an encouragement, ladies and gentlemen. Just share your testimony. It's not hard. Well, Phil, where can people get a hold of you if they want to talk to you more, if they want to maybe visit your church if they're local to the Sioux Falls area, or if they want to get your book?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So if you want to check us out, if you check out ransom. dot church. You'll find me, my email, all of our sermons. You can follow the teachings and stuff like that. If you want to know more about the story of the book, I do have another website, philtag.com, that you can go check out. What's great about that website, it tells a little more about why I wrote the book, but then it has a free study guide. So if you find the book meaningful, you can just download the free PDF study guide and go through it with some friends and wrestle with some questions. The book is available on Amazon. My website will link you to Amazon. It's available hardcover, softcover, and Kindle. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Awesome. Well, thank you again, Phil, for coming on and having this conversation with me and encouraging my listeners the importance of being honest, sharing your testimony, and understanding who the true Jesus is, not the one we think he is.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Friends, did you enjoy the episode? I'm so glad to hear it. Leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or my website, honestchristianconversations.com. Your reviews help boost the podcast in the ratings. So let's make these honest conversations more accessible to those who need them. Be sure to follow the show so you never miss another episode. And while you're doing that, why not share the podcast with someone? Thank you for spending time with me today. I look forward to our next conversation.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Description

Together, we dive into:

Why so many Christians unknowingly create their own “version” of Jesus
How legalism, performance, and perfectionism distort our view of God
The difference between happiness and joy
Why surrendering to God often starts with discomfort
How vulnerability breaks spiritual chains
Phill’s book and how it became a journey of honesty, courage, and obedience

If you’ve ever said, “I want to know Jesus… but sometimes I’m not sure I really do,” this episode will encourage you, challenge you, and invite you closer to the heart of God.

Learn more about Phill Tague

––––––––––––––

Was this episode of Honest Christian Conversations meaningful to you?

If something here encouraged you, challenged you, or helped you take one small step forward in your faith, I’m really grateful you spent this time with me.

Here’s how you can take the next step 👇

👉 Leave a comment or write a quick review

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Is your idea of Jesus airbrushed or do you know the true Jesus? This week's guest is Phil Haig. He is the pastor of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And man, is he on a mission to share with the world who the true Jesus is. There are so many versions of him, but he is here to shatter all that. and to explain to us the importance of knowing who Jesus truly is, not the version we think he is, but who he really is from the Bible's perspective. My name is Anna Murby. This is Honest Christian Conversation. If this is your first time listening to the podcast, thank you for spending your time with me today. For all returning listeners, I'm glad you're back. After the episode, please leave a review for the podcast if you haven't already done so. If you have, thanks so much. I appreciate reading your encouraging comments. They help me improve the content for you all. Thanks for your support. God bless and enjoy the show. Phil, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker #1
Oh, my privilege. Such a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Yes, I was very excited to talk to you because when you reached out to ask to be a guest, I saw that you were questioning your faith and why you believe the things you believed. And that's how I felt my whole life. So I really resonated with that part of your story. And then I saw in your bio on Podmatch that you have a deep love for your family. And that's very important for men to have. And unfortunately, men have not been uplifted in the world lately to where that is. something they feel they can be proud of. So I also was impressed by that and knew that I was going to have you on. But before we get started on what you do with your ministry and your book, tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So I am the third of four adopted kids. I am the only boy in the family, two older sisters, one younger, and raised in a home that, you know, Faith was part of it. Church was part of it. My dad had a real passion for us to know the Lord, but it was an environment where it got because of his desire, because of his passion, and maybe because of his understanding of faith, it became a fairly legalistic environment. And so I can't speak for my sisters and how they processed it, but I'm wired to want to perform, produce, do well, get the gold star. And so that was my approach to faith was like, how do I? how do I do this thing? I had a real desire to know Jesus deeply, to have a deep relationship with God, but it all was manifested through what am I supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be living? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Sympathico. I completely get that. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So meanwhile, I'm being exposed to things throughout my life. Pornography was a big one for a while in my life. Me too. And so you're on the one hand living this. this life you want. On the other hand, searching for what you're not finding in your faith in other things. And there was this wrestling match, this tension. So I was constantly going back and forth between like wandering, repenting, trying to do the right thing and back and forth. So when God called me to ministry after my senior year of high school, I wanted nothing to do with that. I mean, nothing. I had, I like, I wanted all the good parts of Jesus I knew about, but I I also had a plan for my life. And, you know, I didn't know the plans he had for me, but I knew the plans I had for me. And I was excited about him. And so, but I wanted to obey. There was that, I want to obey. And so I ended up going to college. And my freshman year of college, I was at Oklahoma Wesleyan University and I was studying for ministry and also deciding that I just thought this whole Christianity thing was bunk at the same time. And so I, at the end of that semester or the end of that year, I, I quit ministry. I quit on my faith. I walked away and I just thought about that list and I ran to that and I rebelled for a while. And so I'm a guy who, you know, looked to faith for answers, thought there's got to be more, went searching in the world, found it's not there. And there was a moment near the end of that summer where I had a pretty profound experience where I woke up pretty miserable. I woke up, I didn't remember the party I'd been at the night before. I didn't remember how getting home, I just remember being pretty empty. And I felt like the Holy Spirit spoke into my life and asked me why I thought the answer to hypocrisy was hypocrisy. And it was the first time it occurred to me I've been trying to do religion but never get to know Jesus. And I, I've, I've done, he's my savior, but he's not my Lord. I have, I have a major Lordship issue. I've never surrendered to him. And, and that moment changed my life. It set me on a new path that I'm on now.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I completely resonate with what you were saying from the addiction to pornography to the walking away from the faith and yeah, being. legalistic family, whether it was well-intentioned or not, and just having questions and not feeling like I was doing enough. That was always my thing. I wanted to not make waves. I didn't want to make anyone upset with me. I just wanted to do the right thing. And I wanted God to always be proud of me. But at the same time, I also did the hypocritical thing too. And, you know, I was looking at pornography, but I was judging the people in the videos. I was judging other people for their sins. And yeah, I... completely agree and resonate with everything you said. So you denied the calling that God seemed to have had on your heart to be a pastor back when you were younger, but you are a pastor now of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. So when did you finally allow God to be the lordship of your life and listen to that call?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's been an ongoing journey. So going back to that post high school experience, I realized in that moment that God had to be more in my life. But I kind of assumed at that point, well, I know enough about God that he'll forgive me. But the ministry thing, that's over. And I remember my youth pastor at the time, I was one semester into my sophomore year. I was partway through the semester. He called me to his office and he said, what are you doing here? And I said, what do you mean? What am I doing here? You called this meeting. And he said, no, no, I mean, like, what are you doing in Sioux Falls? Why are you not following God's call? And it never occurred to me that God's forgiveness was so complete that he would still have that calling on my life. And so I ended up transferring back to Oklahoma Wesleyan second semester of my sophomore year, following through with that call. But there's been ups and downs. You know, when God called me into ministry, I didn't want to do that. When God called me to my first pastorate in North Carolina at the small church, that was not my dream job. when he called me to step out of youth ministry and plant a church. I didn't want to do that either. You know, every step of the journey has been like, oh, yeah, God, I'm surrendered. I'm totally surrendered. And he's like, well, how about this? And I'm like, well, but what about that? And I have to it's like I have to re-wrestle down his lordship in my life because left to myself, I just take over control.
Speaker #0
It's hard when God calls you to do something you don't want to do.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
calls us to do things we do want to do. I mean, think of all the people who are like, I have all these grand plans I want to do for the Lord, for his kingdom. How often do they get to do those things? He always calls us to do things we don't want to do.
Speaker #1
The annoying thing about how God works is like, I know I need to be more patient. And so I pray for patience and God gives me opportunities to be patient.
Speaker #0
Yes, yes.
Speaker #1
And I'm like, oh, this whole thing's a refinement thing. Yeah. See, I wanted it to be like a rewards thing. Like I follow these rules, I get these rewards. And it's actually not that it's actually him shaping me into his image instead of me creating an image of him that works for my for my life. And so, yeah, God's never asked me to do something that I was excited about when he asked. I would in hindsight, I can look in the mirror and go, I'm so glad I made the choices I made. I'm so glad I'm on his path. It truly is better. but when he asks it, it just, I mean, the last time God, the last thing God said to me, honestly, in my prayer life was, hey, I've got something for you coming and you're going to hate it.
Speaker #0
And I'm like, well,
Speaker #1
thanks for at least being honest with me. You know, this is great. This is great that we, so I'm ready. I'm waiting for, there's something coming down the pipe and I don't want to do it. And he's already told me, but whatever it is, I'll do it because I've learned enough that it's never worth it to run the other way. Running from his will is so much. less meaningful than being in the center of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. I, God's got a new thing that he's planning on doing with me and the podcast for the next season. I've gone through three different ideas that I had for it and thought I had it all. This is what he wants me to do. And then a sermon happened at our church, which confirmed something that I had already felt a few days earlier was and dismissed immediately as no, I'm not ready for that. And. The sermon, I started crying because I really felt like God was solidifying, no, you will be okay. And I'm like, no, I won't. I really can't do this. So, yeah, I'm definitely nervous about that. And that would probably be my God saying, you got something coming and you're really not going to like it.
Speaker #1
And that's so much a faith for so many people. We want God's benefits on our terms. And that's just not how it works. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Ouch. That's yeah, that's absolutely true. We treat them like a genie. We may not intend to, but I know I have. And I've tried to be more intentional on not doing that. or at the very least saying after I'm done demanding, quote unquote, the things that I want, I will say, but in. all I want what you want done. So please help me to be accepting of that.
Speaker #1
Yeah. One of the major pictures I paint in our book is this, when we create Jesus in the image that works for us, we end up holding him responsible for promises he never made, being angry when he doesn't keep promises we actually made to ourselves, and then questioning his goodness because he didn't live up to the picture we painted in our minds, but that's never who he was in the first place.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yep, absolutely right. And I know I am guilty of trying to hold him to promises he never made. And I'm sure there's listeners right now who are slumping in their chairs because they've also been there. Pretty sure we all have been there at one point. Maybe it was the way we were raised and how we were taught to look at God. Maybe it's just, you know, we've heard that he loves, he cares about us, he wants what's good for us. So we think, well, if I really want this new whatever, he must want it too, because it'll make me happy. It'll make him happy. And we've got that all wrong and backwards.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, one of the things we try to teach our people at our church is that God's primary desire is not that you would be happy. It's that you would be holy. And when you choose to follow him and when he refines you, you will find a joy that so exceeds happiness. Happiness is... I mean, by the very word that she used, happiness is based on our happenings. So if things are happening the way that I like, I feel happy. Joy is despite circumstance. And the only true joy is found in the holiness that can be found in him. But we chase happiness instead of holiness. And that's part of the problem.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So how long have you been the pastor of Ransom Church? And did you, did you? build the church or was it already established and they asked you to be the pastor?
Speaker #1
Yeah, no, my wife and I are co-founders. We planted the church in March of 2009 with one other couple. That's a whole story about a wrestling match with God. And it took over a year for us to say yes. But once we said yes, just time after time and his hand was on it. And he gave us a very clear vision. We had a weekend where we prayed about the church. And we said, what is this even going to be? Like, why this church? We agreed, OK, you pray about it. I'll pray about it. And on Sunday night, we'll come back together. We'll talk about it. And we're not, don't talk the rest of the week about it. We're going to. So I was praying and I felt like the Lord said, I want you to set captives free. And that was all he gave me that weekend. And so we came back on Sunday and I let my wife go first because I was absolutely convinced that whatever she had was not going to be as great as setting captives free. And so I was like, going to let her go. And I was going to be like, that's cute. But how about this? Boom. you know, and so I said, you go first. And she said, well, God only gave me one thing. He really wants us to set captives free. And I went, that's pretty on the nose. And so we began to wrestle that out. And out of that came our vision and values for the church that we want to help people worship free of inhibition, live free of sin, serve free of self so they can be set free to be who God made them to be. We want to plant a church that's holistically focused on not just salvation, but your whole identity and holiness and walking towards him.
Speaker #0
So yeah,
Speaker #1
we planted in March 09 and God did some miraculous things and we've been leading it for now 16 plus years. It's been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but also such an adventure. At 18, out of our church, we launched the Awaken Church Planner Network, which was going to just start as a ministry of our church and ended up, it's grown so much now that it's outgrown us and I'm on the board of that church planner network. It's just been really, really fun to watch God, see what God can do with obedience.
Speaker #0
Hey friends, I wanted to tell you about my personal experience with Exodus Strong. If you aren't sure what it's about, it's a biblical and holistic supplement that has seven herbs and that's it. This is an amazing product. Since I have been taking it, I have not felt anger towards my children or my husband nearly as much as I used to. The anger fits are practically gone. Hallelujah. I know my family is singing those praises. I feel like a completely different woman. I feel more relaxed, more even-keeled. I'm sleeping better. feeling more focused, which is great because I'm learning a second language. And I just overall feel like a better person than I did before when I was full of my anger. And I am so excited to share this with you. The prayer guide that comes along with it is also a blessing that keeps you close to God. I feel more close to God since I have been more regulated in my emotional state. If you need help focusing, if you need help with your stress levels, if you need help with your blood sugar levels, this product is going to be great for you. I encourage you to check it out. The link will be in the show notes. And if you want to know more about the founder of Exodus Strong, go back and listen to the episode that I did for the podcast with Rob Rene. You are going to be so blessed.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. He does some amazing things. one All he gets from us is a, okay, God, I'll listen to you. That's like our little tiny mustard seed of faith,
Speaker #0
I guess. Just, okay, fine. I'll do what you want me to do. And then he shows up and he does miraculous things. And then that just increases our faith and our love of him because we know that he does have good plans for us and we may not understand what they are at the moment. but we can trust him because he's always with us. And he does, at the end of the day, want what's best for us. We just have to submit what our best is to what he knows is best.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And the thing about that faith is it's got to be a faith in him. Like if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in myself, or if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in a picture of God that exists only in my head, and then I wonder why he doesn't, isn't faithful. He never promised that. When you read that story, you read about the disciples and they said, we didn't have enough faith. What was the faith in what they could do? And he said, if you had even the smallest bit of faith in me, mountains could move because I'm the one who can move mountains. And so I think that orienting of our faith on him is so critical.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for bringing up that mustard seed of faith verse as well, because I think there are some Christians who kind of misconstrue it. probably they're not doing it intentionally, but they don't understand that that's not what it means to have faith in you can do this, but to have that mustard seed of faith in what God can do. And that just hearing you say it just then made so much more sense to me of what that verse meant. Just hearing it in that they had faith in what they could do. They didn't have faith in God. If they did, then they would have. have been able to do what they were saying. Why can't we do this? So that was an eye-opener moment for me, and I'm sure others felt the same. Yeah. So tell us about your book. What is it about? What is it called?
Speaker #1
So my book is called Jesus Be the Centerfold, Choosing Covenant Faith Over Airbrushed Christianity. I never set out to write a book. It is an exercise in obedience. it took me over two years of the Holy Spirit nudging me for me to start to take that call seriously. He actually had, at one point, he had made it pretty clear. I said, well, what do I even write a book about? And I took some brainstorming time and he gave me the whole outline for the book. And I went, oh, I know what this book is about. And I was still like, no, I'm not going to write it. And five minutes after I said that, a gal in my church texted me and said, hey, I don't usually do this, but the Holy Spirit prompted me to text you and ask if you're writing a book. And that happened six times that day. phone calls, emails. And at the end of the day, I was like, I still had the audacity to be like, I'll sleep on it. So I woke up the next morning and I was doing a Spanish lesson in the Duolingo language learning app. And it said, translate these sentences. We should write a book together. We're writing a book this summer. Are you going to write a book? And I was like, yeah. And I was like, listen, timeout, Holy Spirit. So I finally was like, okay, I'm going to write this. So the book is, um, I. I mentioned I was exposed to pornography young. This is not a book about pornography, but pornography became a metaphor in my life. What I realized in my battle with pornography was that while lust was a part of it, while it was like an outcropping of it, the actual issue was a desire for intimacy without the cost of intimacy. I wanted all the good benefits of a feeling. I didn't want the cost of a relationship. And what that has become in my life is a just a perfect metaphor for what we've done with Jesus. We've airbrushed Jesus. We know the images in our head is not real, but what we want is all the benefits of faith with none of the cost of an intimate relationship with God.
Speaker #0
And there's,
Speaker #1
yeah, there's a thousand different versions of that in each of our lives, areas where we compromise, where we read scripture and we swipe right on the stuff we like and we swipe left on the stuff we don't like. And we, we. build a relationship that works for us. But then the minute we feel like God's not keeping his under the bargain, we're like, my faith is not strong. I'm out. I don't know if I believe this. And what he's calling us into is a covenant. And so I use, I've been married 24 years, almost 25 years, intimacy with my wife. The way that I define intimacy in the book is, it's not about sexuality at all. Intimacy is about being fully known and still chosen. So whether that's mentally, physically, like I'm 47 now. My body does not look like it did when I got married, right? And when my wife sees me in an intimate setting and fully chooses me anyway, that increases intimacy in our relationship because she's loving me as I am. When I mess up and I treat her poorly and she forgives me, she's loving me as I am. That's the relationship God wants with us. He wants a relationship where we can know that we're fully exposed before him in all our sin and all our brokenness and that he's still choosing us. And he's inviting us into a covenant relationship. And so the book's just a journey, my journey of wrestling with that.
Speaker #0
Beautiful. I love it. And I absolutely agree. As soon as I saw the title of your book, The Airbrushed Christianity, it just made me think of social media, especially Instagram, and how people will put the best parts of themselves up there. Nobody's really putting. today was a sucky day. I yelled at my kid for like the 90th time. Some people might do that, but they're not doing it often. And the reason why is because people will probably jump on them and criticize and all these other things. So they feel like they can't be real and honest with people, which, you know, is a catch 22.
Speaker #1
And there's a lot of different ways. Like when you read scripture, so you have the Pharisees who couldn't. see Jesus for who he was because they had an airbrushed picture of him that was about rules and regulations. You had the Jewish people who couldn't see Jesus for who he was because he came to free them from their sins, but they had a picture of a Messiah that would be a Savior who would save them from the Romans and get them out of captivity. And we do the same thing. You can airbrush Jesus legalistically. You can airbrush Jesus by giving yourself license. And he stands in the middle and he says, I'm not either of those things. You can airbrush Jesus to be a liberal. You can airbrush him to be a conservative. And he stands in the middle. He says, I'm more than that. I'm more than that. I just think there's so many places we do this in our life. And it was a fun wrestling match. Like I said, I never planned to write it, but it's been a really fun journey to go on to go. I just want people to know the real Jesus. I think there are so many Christians. I think churches are full of people who would go to church, who would call themselves Christians, who do not have lordship with Jesus. figured out, they have not surrendered, who have this feeling of this can't be all there is to faith. And I would say there is more. Jesus is more than you think. And he's waiting for you to discover him.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Which chapter was your favorite to write?
Speaker #1
Oh, man. So when I started writing it, my favorite to write was prostitute. It's about prostituting the church. There's a title. Yeah. I love saying things that hit people. where they are, but cause them to do it in a way that's grace-filled and cause them to go, man, I really need to wrestle with that. What ended up being my favorite was the last three chapters, which started as a chapter that turned to two chapters that turned to three chapters, where I trace God's attempts from Adam and Eve all the way to Jesus of covenants with his people over and over again. And I think that was my favorite because not only did I get to trace those covenants and see my own brokenness in the mistakes that other people made, but then you get to the end and there's this point where Scripture talks about Jesus wanting a spotless bride, but washing her pure himself with his blood. And it was maybe the first time I understood it this way, that God loves us so much that Jesus said, not only will I do my part, I'll do your part too. And all I ask of you is just to choose me. Just this profound and powerful lengths that he went to out of his love for us. So that ended up being... That section ended up being kind of my favorite.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I can see why. Deep connection and it probably strengthened your relationship with him even more after reading all that and writing it. So which one was very difficult for you to write? Maybe because it was a spiritual area he was working on you in.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I mean, I would say there wasn't one chapter. It was how he asked me to write the book. This was the most vulnerable thing I've ever done. I tell it like it is. I tell the truth about myself and my struggles, and I share that with the world. And then we gave the book to our whole church. as a gift. Everybody got a free copy. And there's a lot of vulnerability in putting yourself out there. But one of the things I've found is that Satan loves to keep us isolated. If he can keep us afraid and isolated and playing the victim and keep us in that cycle, he can keep us bound up for a long time. And there are eight billion people doing life by themselves, isolated from one another in a world full of people who are going through the exact same thing. And the biggest lie the enemy tells us is you're the only one. You're the only one struggling with that. Don't tell anybody. And when you say out loud what you're struggling with, it takes the power away from it and allows everyone else to go, me too. And that draws us together. It doesn't tear us apart. I think the whole thing was an exercise. It was incredibly difficult to be that vulnerable. But as I was, the number of stories that people have read it who have come back and said, if you had not said that, I would never have been able to be honest with myself about this thing. Thank you for your vulnerability has been a reward in and of itself.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's something about vulnerability and honesty and sharing our testimony with people that it just resonates with people. Like you said, Satan likes to keep us thinking we're the only ones, that nobody can know this, but that's not true. And when someone steps out of their comfort zone to be honest and vulnerable, it breaks those chains and it gives another person a chance to do the same. And then they break chains for other people. And then it's just this cycle of people getting set free because they realize they aren't the only ones that they can talk about this. They can share these parts of themselves that they've been hiding, that they've been trying to fix on their own. And I think that's why it's very powerful that we share our testimonies and why it's said in the Bible that we need to by the word of our testimony.
Speaker #1
Yeah, really powerful. There's nothing, you know, people say, I don't, I don't. know enough about the Bible to share the gospel, what you need to share is your story. You know, if you have, if you know enough of the gospel to be like the blind man who was like, I don't know who Jesus is. I just know I was blind and now I see he healed me. No one can argue with the testimony of a man born blind who stand there and seeing, and no one can argue with the testimony of the person you were and the person you become and how God has changed your life. And there's just nothing more powerful than the ability to say, here's who I was, Then I met Jesus. Here's what's different. And if you can do that, you are ready to share the gospel with anyone.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's an encouragement, ladies and gentlemen. Just share your testimony. It's not hard. Well, Phil, where can people get a hold of you if they want to talk to you more, if they want to maybe visit your church if they're local to the Sioux Falls area, or if they want to get your book?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So if you want to check us out, if you check out ransom. dot church. You'll find me, my email, all of our sermons. You can follow the teachings and stuff like that. If you want to know more about the story of the book, I do have another website, philtag.com, that you can go check out. What's great about that website, it tells a little more about why I wrote the book, but then it has a free study guide. So if you find the book meaningful, you can just download the free PDF study guide and go through it with some friends and wrestle with some questions. The book is available on Amazon. My website will link you to Amazon. It's available hardcover, softcover, and Kindle. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Awesome. Well, thank you again, Phil, for coming on and having this conversation with me and encouraging my listeners the importance of being honest, sharing your testimony, and understanding who the true Jesus is, not the one we think he is.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Friends, did you enjoy the episode? I'm so glad to hear it. Leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or my website, honestchristianconversations.com. Your reviews help boost the podcast in the ratings. So let's make these honest conversations more accessible to those who need them. Be sure to follow the show so you never miss another episode. And while you're doing that, why not share the podcast with someone? Thank you for spending time with me today. I look forward to our next conversation.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Together, we dive into:

Why so many Christians unknowingly create their own “version” of Jesus
How legalism, performance, and perfectionism distort our view of God
The difference between happiness and joy
Why surrendering to God often starts with discomfort
How vulnerability breaks spiritual chains
Phill’s book and how it became a journey of honesty, courage, and obedience

If you’ve ever said, “I want to know Jesus… but sometimes I’m not sure I really do,” this episode will encourage you, challenge you, and invite you closer to the heart of God.

Learn more about Phill Tague

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👉 Leave a comment or write a quick review

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Is your idea of Jesus airbrushed or do you know the true Jesus? This week's guest is Phil Haig. He is the pastor of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And man, is he on a mission to share with the world who the true Jesus is. There are so many versions of him, but he is here to shatter all that. and to explain to us the importance of knowing who Jesus truly is, not the version we think he is, but who he really is from the Bible's perspective. My name is Anna Murby. This is Honest Christian Conversation. If this is your first time listening to the podcast, thank you for spending your time with me today. For all returning listeners, I'm glad you're back. After the episode, please leave a review for the podcast if you haven't already done so. If you have, thanks so much. I appreciate reading your encouraging comments. They help me improve the content for you all. Thanks for your support. God bless and enjoy the show. Phil, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker #1
Oh, my privilege. Such a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Yes, I was very excited to talk to you because when you reached out to ask to be a guest, I saw that you were questioning your faith and why you believe the things you believed. And that's how I felt my whole life. So I really resonated with that part of your story. And then I saw in your bio on Podmatch that you have a deep love for your family. And that's very important for men to have. And unfortunately, men have not been uplifted in the world lately to where that is. something they feel they can be proud of. So I also was impressed by that and knew that I was going to have you on. But before we get started on what you do with your ministry and your book, tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So I am the third of four adopted kids. I am the only boy in the family, two older sisters, one younger, and raised in a home that, you know, Faith was part of it. Church was part of it. My dad had a real passion for us to know the Lord, but it was an environment where it got because of his desire, because of his passion, and maybe because of his understanding of faith, it became a fairly legalistic environment. And so I can't speak for my sisters and how they processed it, but I'm wired to want to perform, produce, do well, get the gold star. And so that was my approach to faith was like, how do I? how do I do this thing? I had a real desire to know Jesus deeply, to have a deep relationship with God, but it all was manifested through what am I supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be living? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Sympathico. I completely get that. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So meanwhile, I'm being exposed to things throughout my life. Pornography was a big one for a while in my life. Me too. And so you're on the one hand living this. this life you want. On the other hand, searching for what you're not finding in your faith in other things. And there was this wrestling match, this tension. So I was constantly going back and forth between like wandering, repenting, trying to do the right thing and back and forth. So when God called me to ministry after my senior year of high school, I wanted nothing to do with that. I mean, nothing. I had, I like, I wanted all the good parts of Jesus I knew about, but I I also had a plan for my life. And, you know, I didn't know the plans he had for me, but I knew the plans I had for me. And I was excited about him. And so, but I wanted to obey. There was that, I want to obey. And so I ended up going to college. And my freshman year of college, I was at Oklahoma Wesleyan University and I was studying for ministry and also deciding that I just thought this whole Christianity thing was bunk at the same time. And so I, at the end of that semester or the end of that year, I, I quit ministry. I quit on my faith. I walked away and I just thought about that list and I ran to that and I rebelled for a while. And so I'm a guy who, you know, looked to faith for answers, thought there's got to be more, went searching in the world, found it's not there. And there was a moment near the end of that summer where I had a pretty profound experience where I woke up pretty miserable. I woke up, I didn't remember the party I'd been at the night before. I didn't remember how getting home, I just remember being pretty empty. And I felt like the Holy Spirit spoke into my life and asked me why I thought the answer to hypocrisy was hypocrisy. And it was the first time it occurred to me I've been trying to do religion but never get to know Jesus. And I, I've, I've done, he's my savior, but he's not my Lord. I have, I have a major Lordship issue. I've never surrendered to him. And, and that moment changed my life. It set me on a new path that I'm on now.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I completely resonate with what you were saying from the addiction to pornography to the walking away from the faith and yeah, being. legalistic family, whether it was well-intentioned or not, and just having questions and not feeling like I was doing enough. That was always my thing. I wanted to not make waves. I didn't want to make anyone upset with me. I just wanted to do the right thing. And I wanted God to always be proud of me. But at the same time, I also did the hypocritical thing too. And, you know, I was looking at pornography, but I was judging the people in the videos. I was judging other people for their sins. And yeah, I... completely agree and resonate with everything you said. So you denied the calling that God seemed to have had on your heart to be a pastor back when you were younger, but you are a pastor now of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. So when did you finally allow God to be the lordship of your life and listen to that call?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's been an ongoing journey. So going back to that post high school experience, I realized in that moment that God had to be more in my life. But I kind of assumed at that point, well, I know enough about God that he'll forgive me. But the ministry thing, that's over. And I remember my youth pastor at the time, I was one semester into my sophomore year. I was partway through the semester. He called me to his office and he said, what are you doing here? And I said, what do you mean? What am I doing here? You called this meeting. And he said, no, no, I mean, like, what are you doing in Sioux Falls? Why are you not following God's call? And it never occurred to me that God's forgiveness was so complete that he would still have that calling on my life. And so I ended up transferring back to Oklahoma Wesleyan second semester of my sophomore year, following through with that call. But there's been ups and downs. You know, when God called me into ministry, I didn't want to do that. When God called me to my first pastorate in North Carolina at the small church, that was not my dream job. when he called me to step out of youth ministry and plant a church. I didn't want to do that either. You know, every step of the journey has been like, oh, yeah, God, I'm surrendered. I'm totally surrendered. And he's like, well, how about this? And I'm like, well, but what about that? And I have to it's like I have to re-wrestle down his lordship in my life because left to myself, I just take over control.
Speaker #0
It's hard when God calls you to do something you don't want to do.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
calls us to do things we do want to do. I mean, think of all the people who are like, I have all these grand plans I want to do for the Lord, for his kingdom. How often do they get to do those things? He always calls us to do things we don't want to do.
Speaker #1
The annoying thing about how God works is like, I know I need to be more patient. And so I pray for patience and God gives me opportunities to be patient.
Speaker #0
Yes, yes.
Speaker #1
And I'm like, oh, this whole thing's a refinement thing. Yeah. See, I wanted it to be like a rewards thing. Like I follow these rules, I get these rewards. And it's actually not that it's actually him shaping me into his image instead of me creating an image of him that works for my for my life. And so, yeah, God's never asked me to do something that I was excited about when he asked. I would in hindsight, I can look in the mirror and go, I'm so glad I made the choices I made. I'm so glad I'm on his path. It truly is better. but when he asks it, it just, I mean, the last time God, the last thing God said to me, honestly, in my prayer life was, hey, I've got something for you coming and you're going to hate it.
Speaker #0
And I'm like, well,
Speaker #1
thanks for at least being honest with me. You know, this is great. This is great that we, so I'm ready. I'm waiting for, there's something coming down the pipe and I don't want to do it. And he's already told me, but whatever it is, I'll do it because I've learned enough that it's never worth it to run the other way. Running from his will is so much. less meaningful than being in the center of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. I, God's got a new thing that he's planning on doing with me and the podcast for the next season. I've gone through three different ideas that I had for it and thought I had it all. This is what he wants me to do. And then a sermon happened at our church, which confirmed something that I had already felt a few days earlier was and dismissed immediately as no, I'm not ready for that. And. The sermon, I started crying because I really felt like God was solidifying, no, you will be okay. And I'm like, no, I won't. I really can't do this. So, yeah, I'm definitely nervous about that. And that would probably be my God saying, you got something coming and you're really not going to like it.
Speaker #1
And that's so much a faith for so many people. We want God's benefits on our terms. And that's just not how it works. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Ouch. That's yeah, that's absolutely true. We treat them like a genie. We may not intend to, but I know I have. And I've tried to be more intentional on not doing that. or at the very least saying after I'm done demanding, quote unquote, the things that I want, I will say, but in. all I want what you want done. So please help me to be accepting of that.
Speaker #1
Yeah. One of the major pictures I paint in our book is this, when we create Jesus in the image that works for us, we end up holding him responsible for promises he never made, being angry when he doesn't keep promises we actually made to ourselves, and then questioning his goodness because he didn't live up to the picture we painted in our minds, but that's never who he was in the first place.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yep, absolutely right. And I know I am guilty of trying to hold him to promises he never made. And I'm sure there's listeners right now who are slumping in their chairs because they've also been there. Pretty sure we all have been there at one point. Maybe it was the way we were raised and how we were taught to look at God. Maybe it's just, you know, we've heard that he loves, he cares about us, he wants what's good for us. So we think, well, if I really want this new whatever, he must want it too, because it'll make me happy. It'll make him happy. And we've got that all wrong and backwards.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, one of the things we try to teach our people at our church is that God's primary desire is not that you would be happy. It's that you would be holy. And when you choose to follow him and when he refines you, you will find a joy that so exceeds happiness. Happiness is... I mean, by the very word that she used, happiness is based on our happenings. So if things are happening the way that I like, I feel happy. Joy is despite circumstance. And the only true joy is found in the holiness that can be found in him. But we chase happiness instead of holiness. And that's part of the problem.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So how long have you been the pastor of Ransom Church? And did you, did you? build the church or was it already established and they asked you to be the pastor?
Speaker #1
Yeah, no, my wife and I are co-founders. We planted the church in March of 2009 with one other couple. That's a whole story about a wrestling match with God. And it took over a year for us to say yes. But once we said yes, just time after time and his hand was on it. And he gave us a very clear vision. We had a weekend where we prayed about the church. And we said, what is this even going to be? Like, why this church? We agreed, OK, you pray about it. I'll pray about it. And on Sunday night, we'll come back together. We'll talk about it. And we're not, don't talk the rest of the week about it. We're going to. So I was praying and I felt like the Lord said, I want you to set captives free. And that was all he gave me that weekend. And so we came back on Sunday and I let my wife go first because I was absolutely convinced that whatever she had was not going to be as great as setting captives free. And so I was like, going to let her go. And I was going to be like, that's cute. But how about this? Boom. you know, and so I said, you go first. And she said, well, God only gave me one thing. He really wants us to set captives free. And I went, that's pretty on the nose. And so we began to wrestle that out. And out of that came our vision and values for the church that we want to help people worship free of inhibition, live free of sin, serve free of self so they can be set free to be who God made them to be. We want to plant a church that's holistically focused on not just salvation, but your whole identity and holiness and walking towards him.
Speaker #0
So yeah,
Speaker #1
we planted in March 09 and God did some miraculous things and we've been leading it for now 16 plus years. It's been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but also such an adventure. At 18, out of our church, we launched the Awaken Church Planner Network, which was going to just start as a ministry of our church and ended up, it's grown so much now that it's outgrown us and I'm on the board of that church planner network. It's just been really, really fun to watch God, see what God can do with obedience.
Speaker #0
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Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. He does some amazing things. one All he gets from us is a, okay, God, I'll listen to you. That's like our little tiny mustard seed of faith,
Speaker #0
I guess. Just, okay, fine. I'll do what you want me to do. And then he shows up and he does miraculous things. And then that just increases our faith and our love of him because we know that he does have good plans for us and we may not understand what they are at the moment. but we can trust him because he's always with us. And he does, at the end of the day, want what's best for us. We just have to submit what our best is to what he knows is best.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And the thing about that faith is it's got to be a faith in him. Like if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in myself, or if I have a mountain worth of faith, but it's in a picture of God that exists only in my head, and then I wonder why he doesn't, isn't faithful. He never promised that. When you read that story, you read about the disciples and they said, we didn't have enough faith. What was the faith in what they could do? And he said, if you had even the smallest bit of faith in me, mountains could move because I'm the one who can move mountains. And so I think that orienting of our faith on him is so critical.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for bringing up that mustard seed of faith verse as well, because I think there are some Christians who kind of misconstrue it. probably they're not doing it intentionally, but they don't understand that that's not what it means to have faith in you can do this, but to have that mustard seed of faith in what God can do. And that just hearing you say it just then made so much more sense to me of what that verse meant. Just hearing it in that they had faith in what they could do. They didn't have faith in God. If they did, then they would have. have been able to do what they were saying. Why can't we do this? So that was an eye-opener moment for me, and I'm sure others felt the same. Yeah. So tell us about your book. What is it about? What is it called?
Speaker #1
So my book is called Jesus Be the Centerfold, Choosing Covenant Faith Over Airbrushed Christianity. I never set out to write a book. It is an exercise in obedience. it took me over two years of the Holy Spirit nudging me for me to start to take that call seriously. He actually had, at one point, he had made it pretty clear. I said, well, what do I even write a book about? And I took some brainstorming time and he gave me the whole outline for the book. And I went, oh, I know what this book is about. And I was still like, no, I'm not going to write it. And five minutes after I said that, a gal in my church texted me and said, hey, I don't usually do this, but the Holy Spirit prompted me to text you and ask if you're writing a book. And that happened six times that day. phone calls, emails. And at the end of the day, I was like, I still had the audacity to be like, I'll sleep on it. So I woke up the next morning and I was doing a Spanish lesson in the Duolingo language learning app. And it said, translate these sentences. We should write a book together. We're writing a book this summer. Are you going to write a book? And I was like, yeah. And I was like, listen, timeout, Holy Spirit. So I finally was like, okay, I'm going to write this. So the book is, um, I. I mentioned I was exposed to pornography young. This is not a book about pornography, but pornography became a metaphor in my life. What I realized in my battle with pornography was that while lust was a part of it, while it was like an outcropping of it, the actual issue was a desire for intimacy without the cost of intimacy. I wanted all the good benefits of a feeling. I didn't want the cost of a relationship. And what that has become in my life is a just a perfect metaphor for what we've done with Jesus. We've airbrushed Jesus. We know the images in our head is not real, but what we want is all the benefits of faith with none of the cost of an intimate relationship with God.
Speaker #0
And there's,
Speaker #1
yeah, there's a thousand different versions of that in each of our lives, areas where we compromise, where we read scripture and we swipe right on the stuff we like and we swipe left on the stuff we don't like. And we, we. build a relationship that works for us. But then the minute we feel like God's not keeping his under the bargain, we're like, my faith is not strong. I'm out. I don't know if I believe this. And what he's calling us into is a covenant. And so I use, I've been married 24 years, almost 25 years, intimacy with my wife. The way that I define intimacy in the book is, it's not about sexuality at all. Intimacy is about being fully known and still chosen. So whether that's mentally, physically, like I'm 47 now. My body does not look like it did when I got married, right? And when my wife sees me in an intimate setting and fully chooses me anyway, that increases intimacy in our relationship because she's loving me as I am. When I mess up and I treat her poorly and she forgives me, she's loving me as I am. That's the relationship God wants with us. He wants a relationship where we can know that we're fully exposed before him in all our sin and all our brokenness and that he's still choosing us. And he's inviting us into a covenant relationship. And so the book's just a journey, my journey of wrestling with that.
Speaker #0
Beautiful. I love it. And I absolutely agree. As soon as I saw the title of your book, The Airbrushed Christianity, it just made me think of social media, especially Instagram, and how people will put the best parts of themselves up there. Nobody's really putting. today was a sucky day. I yelled at my kid for like the 90th time. Some people might do that, but they're not doing it often. And the reason why is because people will probably jump on them and criticize and all these other things. So they feel like they can't be real and honest with people, which, you know, is a catch 22.
Speaker #1
And there's a lot of different ways. Like when you read scripture, so you have the Pharisees who couldn't. see Jesus for who he was because they had an airbrushed picture of him that was about rules and regulations. You had the Jewish people who couldn't see Jesus for who he was because he came to free them from their sins, but they had a picture of a Messiah that would be a Savior who would save them from the Romans and get them out of captivity. And we do the same thing. You can airbrush Jesus legalistically. You can airbrush Jesus by giving yourself license. And he stands in the middle and he says, I'm not either of those things. You can airbrush Jesus to be a liberal. You can airbrush him to be a conservative. And he stands in the middle. He says, I'm more than that. I'm more than that. I just think there's so many places we do this in our life. And it was a fun wrestling match. Like I said, I never planned to write it, but it's been a really fun journey to go on to go. I just want people to know the real Jesus. I think there are so many Christians. I think churches are full of people who would go to church, who would call themselves Christians, who do not have lordship with Jesus. figured out, they have not surrendered, who have this feeling of this can't be all there is to faith. And I would say there is more. Jesus is more than you think. And he's waiting for you to discover him.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Which chapter was your favorite to write?
Speaker #1
Oh, man. So when I started writing it, my favorite to write was prostitute. It's about prostituting the church. There's a title. Yeah. I love saying things that hit people. where they are, but cause them to do it in a way that's grace-filled and cause them to go, man, I really need to wrestle with that. What ended up being my favorite was the last three chapters, which started as a chapter that turned to two chapters that turned to three chapters, where I trace God's attempts from Adam and Eve all the way to Jesus of covenants with his people over and over again. And I think that was my favorite because not only did I get to trace those covenants and see my own brokenness in the mistakes that other people made, but then you get to the end and there's this point where Scripture talks about Jesus wanting a spotless bride, but washing her pure himself with his blood. And it was maybe the first time I understood it this way, that God loves us so much that Jesus said, not only will I do my part, I'll do your part too. And all I ask of you is just to choose me. Just this profound and powerful lengths that he went to out of his love for us. So that ended up being... That section ended up being kind of my favorite.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I can see why. Deep connection and it probably strengthened your relationship with him even more after reading all that and writing it. So which one was very difficult for you to write? Maybe because it was a spiritual area he was working on you in.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I mean, I would say there wasn't one chapter. It was how he asked me to write the book. This was the most vulnerable thing I've ever done. I tell it like it is. I tell the truth about myself and my struggles, and I share that with the world. And then we gave the book to our whole church. as a gift. Everybody got a free copy. And there's a lot of vulnerability in putting yourself out there. But one of the things I've found is that Satan loves to keep us isolated. If he can keep us afraid and isolated and playing the victim and keep us in that cycle, he can keep us bound up for a long time. And there are eight billion people doing life by themselves, isolated from one another in a world full of people who are going through the exact same thing. And the biggest lie the enemy tells us is you're the only one. You're the only one struggling with that. Don't tell anybody. And when you say out loud what you're struggling with, it takes the power away from it and allows everyone else to go, me too. And that draws us together. It doesn't tear us apart. I think the whole thing was an exercise. It was incredibly difficult to be that vulnerable. But as I was, the number of stories that people have read it who have come back and said, if you had not said that, I would never have been able to be honest with myself about this thing. Thank you for your vulnerability has been a reward in and of itself.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's something about vulnerability and honesty and sharing our testimony with people that it just resonates with people. Like you said, Satan likes to keep us thinking we're the only ones, that nobody can know this, but that's not true. And when someone steps out of their comfort zone to be honest and vulnerable, it breaks those chains and it gives another person a chance to do the same. And then they break chains for other people. And then it's just this cycle of people getting set free because they realize they aren't the only ones that they can talk about this. They can share these parts of themselves that they've been hiding, that they've been trying to fix on their own. And I think that's why it's very powerful that we share our testimonies and why it's said in the Bible that we need to by the word of our testimony.
Speaker #1
Yeah, really powerful. There's nothing, you know, people say, I don't, I don't. know enough about the Bible to share the gospel, what you need to share is your story. You know, if you have, if you know enough of the gospel to be like the blind man who was like, I don't know who Jesus is. I just know I was blind and now I see he healed me. No one can argue with the testimony of a man born blind who stand there and seeing, and no one can argue with the testimony of the person you were and the person you become and how God has changed your life. And there's just nothing more powerful than the ability to say, here's who I was, Then I met Jesus. Here's what's different. And if you can do that, you are ready to share the gospel with anyone.
Speaker #0
Yeah. There's an encouragement, ladies and gentlemen. Just share your testimony. It's not hard. Well, Phil, where can people get a hold of you if they want to talk to you more, if they want to maybe visit your church if they're local to the Sioux Falls area, or if they want to get your book?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So if you want to check us out, if you check out ransom. dot church. You'll find me, my email, all of our sermons. You can follow the teachings and stuff like that. If you want to know more about the story of the book, I do have another website, philtag.com, that you can go check out. What's great about that website, it tells a little more about why I wrote the book, but then it has a free study guide. So if you find the book meaningful, you can just download the free PDF study guide and go through it with some friends and wrestle with some questions. The book is available on Amazon. My website will link you to Amazon. It's available hardcover, softcover, and Kindle. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Awesome. Well, thank you again, Phil, for coming on and having this conversation with me and encouraging my listeners the importance of being honest, sharing your testimony, and understanding who the true Jesus is, not the one we think he is.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker #0
Friends, did you enjoy the episode? I'm so glad to hear it. Leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or my website, honestchristianconversations.com. Your reviews help boost the podcast in the ratings. So let's make these honest conversations more accessible to those who need them. Be sure to follow the show so you never miss another episode. And while you're doing that, why not share the podcast with someone? Thank you for spending time with me today. I look forward to our next conversation.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Honest Christian Conversations – Finding Truth in the Noise

Stop blindly trusting so-called Christian sources. Learn how to think clearly and discern truth. Become bolder and more confident in your faith.

Honest Christian Conversations explores faith, culture, and real life through biblical truth and authentic, honest discussion.

This podcast is part of the Honest Christian Conversations project by Ana Murby.

Official home: https://www.honestchristianconversations.com

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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