Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Have you ever judged a book by its cover? Okay, maybe you're not a big reader, but I'm willing to bet you've judged a person before based on how they look or what they believe. I know I have, and I'm pretty sure we've all been on the receiving end of that too. It doesn't feel great to be misunderstood or written off before someone even tries to know you. That's why today's conversation mattered so much to me. When Anne, you might know her by her pen name, amgeever, and I first connected on Podmatch. Neither of us knew what this conversation would turn into. We come from very different belief backgrounds, but one thing connected us right away, our shared love of writing. That connection opened the door to a really honest conversation that wove between apocalyptic fiction, faith journeys, and what it looks like to truly listen to someone you don't fully agree with. I'm genuinely grateful Anne did not follow her first instinct to decline coming on the show, because we both would have missed out on the chance to understand each other more deeply. This episode pushed me out of my comfort zone, and I hope it encourages you to step out of yours too. I'm Anna Murby, and this is Honest Christian Conversations. If this is your first time joining me, thank you for being here. And if you're returning, welcome back. If this encourages you, I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to leave a comment or a review. You'll find the link in the show notes. Now let's get to the episode. Anne, thank you so much for coming on to talk to me. I know that when we talked before, you were a little apprehensive, but you liked the idea of talking about differing opinions. And it is a very important thing that we see that even if we aren't eye to eye on everything, We still have connections. We still have things that we can relate to. And we should be willing to talk with people that we may differ with on other opinions. For example, I love what you write about. And that's what drew me to you was the type of literature that you write, which is kind of apocalyptic, zombie, all that kind of stuff. I find that interesting and exciting. I just wanted to talk to you. I got to know you. where you are spiritually, which I also would love to unpack because I know nothing about the universalist side of things. So I would really love to know more about that as well, whatever you're willing to tell me. So yeah, let's just jump into it. Tell me about Anne.

• Speaker #1

  Well, first off, thank you so much for having me. And I've been looking forward to this because I really appreciated the candor that we were able to have about. both of us being a little apprehensive, you know, like this person might be a little different. And I really appreciated that. And I was like, this is going to be a good conversation, you know, ahead of time. I already knew that. Oh, so where to start? I write post-apocalyptic and disaster fiction. I got started with that because like I grew up in a family with that really liked scary movies and monsters and horror and that kind of thing. Zombies are obviously something like that in that genre. And then growing up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, this is the area where George Romero invented the modern zombie genre. Because before Romero, you know, zombies were a more supernatural kind of entranced kind of person out of the voodoo tradition. They didn't become what we think of when we hear of a zombie until Romero made Night of the Living. dead. He went to school here.

• Speaker #0

  I've actually never seen that. Oh, really? Oh, if you know,

• Speaker #1

  I will look for some lists because there are some older movies that you can find where, and I think one of the best is a film called I Walked With a Zombie. But there are films that, you know, predating Romero that have that element. And I mean, it's been decades since I've seen any of them. Yeah. So I don't know that any of them are good, but I know that I Walk With a Zombie is. Anyway, George Romero went to college here in Pittsburgh, and he did his filmmaking in Pittsburgh and in the larger Western Pennsylvania area. Zombies have this outsized influence in Pittsburgh. When Dawn of the Dead was premiering, it premiered in Pittsburgh. My brothers were going to the Monroeville Mall where it was filmed, and that was kind of a big deal because that was a new mall on the far side of town where we never went because it was really far it was like 30 minutes away But we just didn't go to that part of town. It had an indoor ice skating rink. And I just remember, like, they were so excited about going to see this film. And so, you know, that also really captured my imaginations. You know, I ended up writing my first series, The Undead Age, as a zombie series because I was very intimidated by the idea of writing a book. I had wanted to write basically my whole life. a big reader. That's where my love of writing came from. And writing happened to be something that was felt natural for me. So I decided, well, I'll write a chick lit book. They can't be hard. Which is just like the pride, you know, just the absolute hubris of that statement is very embarrassing to me now. But that was that was what I thought. I thought, okay, I can do this kind of book. Except I don't read those kind of books very often. I enjoy them when I do, but I don't read them a whole lot. And so my ideas were terrible. I mean, they were terrible. And I would tell my husband, well, what about this? And he'd be like, oh, that's pretty bad. Then I'd tell him the next one and he'd be like, oh, that's terrible. So we did this for several... weeks and one Friday evening he had just told me how bad my latest idea was and I was like too bad it can't have zombies and we looked at each other we're like that's what I should write you know because always been a huge fan of the zombie genre and uh so we banged out the plot that weekend and then it took me almost 10 years to write the book But that was how I got started writing post-apocalyptic fiction. I love post-apocalyptic fiction. I've always liked the what's next. This thing has all been torn down. So how do we rebuild it? Because there are so many ways that can go. So that's kind of where I come from with why I write what I write. As far as what I like to do with it, I write character-driven fiction. Because, you know, in general, most fiction falls into either character-driven or plot-driven fiction. You have both with each, but in some, it's the plot that's moving the story ahead. And the characters are important, but the interiority of the characters isn't as big of a thing. Whereas a character-driven novel, it's really about the characters and their experience. and how they get through this and how it changes them. Obviously, you have to have a compelling story for people to want to read your book. So it's not like you have no element of one or the other. But I really like people. I like what happens to them. Why do they make the choices they do? How does it change them? And post-apocalyptic fiction is fun in that respect because the circumstances are so extreme. So, you know, in a very extreme circumstance, you can really push and push and push and push and just make the choices so stark and so painful. And I think fundamentally I'm interested in writing. I went to seminary fundamentally because I'm really interested in people. What makes people tick and why do people behave the way they do, do the things they do? That's kind of shaped a lot of my pursuits and certainly my writing.

• Speaker #0

  It's actually pretty interesting. I've done some writing as well. I have a few books that I've published. I'm trying to figure out which way they would go in terms of character or plot driven. I'll have to. look them over and figure that out now that I know the difference. As you were talking about why you write this kind of content, it made me think of what I've heard many times before you write what you know. And it's also funny because you mentioned the hubris of, oh, I could write that easily. No problem. That's where I was with that doesn't make any sense. How can you only write what you know? What if you only know like one thing? you can't stay in that lane. Maybe you can branch out. And it is possible, I suppose, to branch out, but you have to have good ideas, like you mentioned. I'll be honest, some of my ideas are very out there and would be good if I knew how to nail them down and like which genre to actually put them in. So I think as creatives, we just have so many of these amazing ideas, which could potentially be good, but maybe not us writing them or maybe just we need to think them out more, put them in our genre. Like what you, you and your husband were like, oh, well, maybe if it had zombies. made me think of the Pride, Prejudice, and Zombies. I haven't seen it or read it, but that's what it made me think of is, you know, oh, this person maybe wanted to write a really nice romantic story, but maybe that's not their wheelhouse. Like, oh, zombies. Like, that's just what I thought of when you said that. So it was very interesting. And I, I love how you grew up with that sort of content, you know, that's just. what you were used to. So why could you, how could you not want to write something like that? I'm pretty sure your books are absolutely amazing because you have such a heart for people. Like you said, you love knowing why they do what they do, what makes them tick. And I think that's a really good way to make character fiction actually come alive and feel relatable and actually would move the story, the plot and give people a chance to. find a character they really like. I think I do love that kind of genre and like the whole apocalypse thing.

• Speaker #1

  Well, as you were talking, I kind of hate write what you know, because people write fantasy. People write science fiction. I grew up with all that horror and that monster movies. And that's how I know it. I never thought of it that way. So, you know, just. in terms of what are your interests and what do you steep yourself in, that's how you know it. So it doesn't have to be, because right what you know is so, it can be so literal. Well, I think we take it very literally. At least I always did. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  me too.

• Speaker #1

  I did. If you write what you know, I mean, it's very limiting. And one of the things, your imagination is where all of these, any idea for any kind of art starts, you know? It's like, what if?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  You know, HG Wells wrote The War of the Worlds, which I have never read. My husband says it's great. Actually, the movie. Yes. I've seen several versions of the myth. And, you know, G. Wells wrote that in the early 1900s.

• Speaker #0

  There's no way he knew that.

• Speaker #1

  Well, it's just like monsters from outer space. I mean, that was just so out there. But that was somebody thinking, you know, well, what if? I think it's always really... helpful if people hear other people saying it's not just what you know in lived experience it's what you know in terms of anything you've been exposed to and then it's your imagination and an imagination is it's so creative it's it can be so out there I mean there are so many authors I've read their... books and I've been like, why didn't I have this idea? I wish I had this idea. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  I've been there too.

• Speaker #1

  Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that just really triggered that for me when you said that because, I don't know, there's a lot of really bad writing advice out there. The more I write, like write every day. I have a friend, he writes every day and that works for him. That's great. But that doesn't work for everybody. People... tie themselves in knots trying to to take that advice so I know I've found you know I've read some writing books craft books and I generally find there's one thing in a book that will resonate with me you know I'll read it and I'll be like oh or I have that like aha kind of recognition that Like, okay, this is something that I... can work with or this makes sense to me. I think using our inner self as a way to find those pieces of information are helpful. Now that's different than learning how to write well. I was really lucky because when I started to write my book, my friend who I didn't know wrote, had told me she was starting a writing group. And I was like, oh, I write. I want to be in it. I lucked out because it turned out to be a really good group of people and, you know, really good writers, writers who were better than me, which, you know, is wonderful because you can learn so much.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And and, you know, like like I started that group and I didn't understand the rules of point of view. You know, and I did something that is very common with writers, which is head hopping. You know, you start the scene from my point of view and then I want to tell Anna's perception. And so then I in the same chapter, I hop over and suddenly it's coming from Anna's point of view. And that's really confusing to a reader because, you know, they've been reading in my point of view. And then all of a sudden it's you and. They don't always catch that. And, and, and, but I didn't understand that at all. And I had to learn that. Even with like first person point of view, where it's all from the character's point of view, I in general do not write in first person. I write in third person past. I've become very good friends with a really fantastic writer who writes post-apocalyptic fiction. Her name is Sarah Lyons Fleming. She writes. zombie fiction. And if you haven't read her stuff, you really should. It's wonderful. I tell everybody to read her stuff. She writes in first person. And I wrote a short story in first person. And she started, she was explaining, okay, you can't do this because it's in first person and it doesn't work. You know, so I've been at this for more than 15 years and I'm still learning from other people. I think it's important to be open. to learning from other people because you won't get better. It doesn't mean you have to take everybody's advice. You know, in that writing group, I had a rule with myself because especially new writers were very protective of our work. My poor husband, we would be walking the dog, we'd be talking about my book, and he would have an idea and he would make a suggestion. And I would immediately shut him down and tell him why that couldn't work. And then I think about it and a week later I'd be like, you know, that's, that's actually a pretty good idea. I mean, poor man.

• Speaker #0

  I've done that. Oh, fortune. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  You know, but like you have to be willing to, to entertain those ideas. So I had a rule with myself, which was if one person said something and it just didn't resonate at all, fine. I could ignore it because my group had five people in it. if two or more people said something, I had to look at it. I had to consider it. And sometimes they were right.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  You know, but if I had not been willing to entertain the possibility that maybe other people, you know, knew something, my writing would never improve.

• Speaker #0

  That's very good advice, actually, not just for writing, but. In life in general, we need to, yeah, we need to be willing to learn from each other and be willing to have conversations that might be difficult. Like you said, you wouldn't have grown had people not said, oh, you shouldn't do this or you can't do this or, you know, try this advice. You learn by doing things, by trying things, from getting advice from people. It always was hard for me whenever my husband would read something I wrote and he'd... either correct the grammar that I missed after like six times of reading it through. And I was like, how did I miss that? And I'd get mad or he'd give me advice. And he's very honest and I appreciate the honesty. And he'll say, well, this doesn't make any sense or I don't get this or this is kind of boring to me. And I have to take what he says and think about, OK, well, is he actually my target audience. No. So his boring comment is okay. That's for him. I get that. that. But why is he saying it's boring? Is it boring because it's just boring to him or is it boring because it's boring? And then I prod him a little more and sometimes it hurts to hear it. But like you said, you won't grow as a writer if you don't allow people. to give you feedback, to talk to you, to give advice from people who might be a little more successful than you. It goes for anything. With my podcasting, I have to do the same thing. I listen to a lot of podcasting podcasts and I learn things and there's tips that they've given that I'm like, well, that just doesn't work for me, but I've heard it from so many people. This is what you have to keep doing. And I'm like, well, I think this is stupid advice. It doesn't work for me, but I might give it to somebody else and say, it may work for you. this might be better for you. I love that you mentioned that, that we just need to be willing and open to talking to people and getting advice and learning. Learning is important in life. We're not just meant to be here and stick to what we know, which goes back to what we were saying was a terrible thing, advice for writers. You shouldn't just stick to what you know, should always want to learn more and understand more and experience more. expand yourself more. So yeah, I like that you reminded us of that. So thank you.

• Speaker #1

  You're welcome.

• Speaker #0

  Well, you did mention a while back casually that you were in seminary. What kind of seminary?

• Speaker #1

  I went to a Unitarian Universalist seminary. Unitarian Universalists are, come out of the Enlightenment, the great, or I'm sorry. come out of the Great Awakening here in the United States in the early 1700s. The basic idea is Unitarian, one God, Universalist, universal salvation. You know, I mean, those were their foundational religious system around which they understood Christianity. And then in the, I think it was the late 1960s or mid-1960s, the two congregations merged. So then they became Unitarian Universalists. It's unusual in some respects. It does not have a creed. We all believe this. They frame it in terms of having a responsible search for truth and meaning. So that's very unusual. They're very much on the liberal progressive end of things socially, which is, you know, where... where I come from in terms of my family. I did not grow up in the Unitarian Universalist tradition. So my family background was Roman Catholic,

• Speaker #0

  which is very different.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. Yeah. Well, and again, even that, my parents were very traditional Catholics. They got married in the mid 1950s. My father is from Ireland. My mother is American. Her parents were from Ireland. And, you know, so they came from a very, very traditional background. When in the late 60s, my mother decided she wanted to go to college, was exposed to feminism, started to examine like her life at this point, you know, like she had me when she was in college, you know, so she had her eighth child because there are nine kids in my family. That was a really social. I mean, there was so much going on in the 60s and the 70s, even in the 50s with the start of the civil rights movement that, you know, people were really questioning and examining and, you know, figuring things out. And, you know, in terms of like just society, I mean, there was just so much going on. Well, my mother finally got to the point where she was like, you know, I can't do much about being. in this patriarchal world. Like it's very, that's, that's too big, but I don't have to participate in this patriarchal religion. So my mother left the church and, you know, at that point when I was about five. So at that point it was no longer mandatory for any of the kids because she wasn't going to make us do something that she wasn't doing and that she quite frankly didn't believe in anymore. Whereas my dad always is still. to this day. Catholic, he goes to mass every single day. He's almost 92, so, you know, he does it at home, you know, watching on TV. I came from this background where, you know, there had been this really big evolution within the family, as well as looking at other options. My mother did eventually go to a Unitarian Universalist. Gosh, I have trouble with words.

• Speaker #0

  It is kind of a tongue twister. So they say to you,

• Speaker #1

  you going to a UU church and which is how I became exposed to it. So anyway, very long story short, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. I was in my early 20s. I had moved from the East Coast to San Francisco, which, you know, a really great city, or at least it was then in the early 90s. And I was trying to find a place to, like, meet friends, meet people. I thought, well, I'll try the UU Church. And this young adult group, so I started going there. And that was really interesting and fun. man lots of interesting people and a lot of people who who um end up at uu churches they didn't necessarily grow up in the faith tradition they come from other places so you'll find people who who grew up any number of stripes of the christian faith you've got people who are jewish you've got people who have a buddhist angle to their their spiritual practice um So I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and I wanted to figure out my own spiritual path. And I thought, well, why don't I go to seminary? I could figure these things out there. I could work with people. I could do something good in the world. So that's what I decided to do. Going to seminary was wonderful. I went to a Unitarian seminary called Star King School for the Ministry. It was named after... Thomas Stark King, who was a very, in Unitarian Universalist circles, very famous minister in the 1850s and 60s. He was actually very instrumental in helping keep California in the Union during the Civil War. You know, so I think he was someone who did some interesting things.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And, but I was lucky because, and this was in Berkeley, so. I ended up moving over to Berkeley. But Star King was part of the Graduate Theological Union, which was a consortium of nine different seminaries. And they had a common registrar. So there were three Catholic schools. There was us. There was an Episcopalian Seminary, Baptist Seminary, Presbyterian Seminary, and an interdenominational Christian Seminary. And we could take classes at any of these schools. So I got exposed to a lot of different faith traditions. And I took my Old Testament at the Franciscan Seminary. I took New Testament at the Baptist Seminary. I took a pastoral counseling class at my seminary. My advisor was a Catholic nun who had taught at one of the Catholic seminaries. but they had a purge of feminists and more progressive people the year before I started. She ended up teaching a Star King. It was this very diverse kind of rich background and a really interesting place to study. So in the course of my studies, I realized that I just didn't want to be a minister. You know, I had gone into it with this very idealized idea. of what ministry was. And, and, and I realized I didn't want to do it. And I, by the end of seminary, I had decided that like, UU was not where I wanted to be. You know, by the time I got to the end, I was like, there's no there there for me. And then there were just silly things. Like I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine in the kitchen at school about how like, you know what? I don't like. potlucks. He's like, I don't like potlucks either. I don't always want to have to work on Sunday. I mean, what if I want to have the weekend off? I mean, it was the most ridiculous conversation because it was about these little silly things, you know? So anyway, I ended up going back to the Catholic church, which there's a lot of people who grew up Catholic and end up in the UU church. There are not a lot who start out in UU and end up going back to migration. Yeah. So it was, It was really interesting. Some of my best friends to this day are people that met there, you know, and some went on to ministry. Some didn't. Some went on to become chaplains, which is obviously ministry of a different sort. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, my stepdad's actually a chaplain. Oh, is he?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I did a chaplaincy internship, and I really like chaplaincy. Like, if I were to pursue ministry, that is what I would do. And I did eventually. end up leaving the Catholic Church for the same reason as my mother is, you know, I was like, this is so sexist. What am I doing here? I think my

• Speaker #0

  There are two parts to my evolution as a person who is spiritual. The first is, are people basically good or bad? I mean, that was always my question because people do so many wonderful things. And they do so many terrible things. How do you hold that in tension? And I think at this stage of my life, I've come to the conclusion that people are people. capable of of a wide variety of things um you know it isn't this either or thing but you know another thing i don't know if i mentioned this to you in our email conversation or not you know i'm a person who wants to know and have assurances i'm not a person who has the gift of faith i'm not and i think that's part of the reason i which is like something catholics say which i always thought was like so so great and hilarious, you know, it's like, it's like, here's the reassurance for those of you who, who care, who still wonder, you know?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And, um, you know, I, I, I, I have a really hard time just like absolutely saying, yes, I'm sure, you know, I know this is what's going to happen when, when, when I die, you know?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And,

• Speaker #0

  and I think that's one of the reasons I have. you know, struggled with the idea of, yeah, I know. And yeah, I can absolutely commit to this, you know, which has me here where I am, which is pretty much agnostic. I do think there is a some kind of spiritual force in the universe. I don't really understand what it is. I'm very influenced, having grown up Catholic and in the Christian tradition. You know, very much so I would lean that way. But, you know, I'm still just like, I don't know. You know, there's this part of me that's like, I don't know. That's why I can't, you know, make that jump to atheism because I don't know. I don't know what happens. You know, I'm not comfortable saying I do. It's not even that I like having that space for possibility and to be surprised. And as much as I think that just is part of the universe is that we don't know, which leaves this space for there to be, or at least I don't know, which leaves this space for this, for discovery. So, you know, so, so that's kind of, that's kind of where I've ended up at least at this point in my life. Cause you know, who knows things, things can change.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  You know, and. And, you know, it's interesting. My brother sent me a video clip of Keanu Reeves on Stephen Colbert. Stephen Colbert was asking like 15 questions. And by the end, we'll all know the essence of who you are, you know. They were really silly. It was really funny. And I like Keanu Reeves. I think he's an interesting person. Colbert asked him, what do you think happens when we die? And he took this. pretty long pause. And then he said, I know that the people who love me will miss me. And I was so struck by that. I was like, that is something that's very true. That is something you can absolutely know, no matter where you come from. I don't know. It's there's a big, interesting world and universe out there. And there's so much to ponder and discover and commit to or not. I think that's part of. what makes people so interesting to me.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, I appreciate your honesty when it comes to having faith in something. It is really hard to put all your eggs in the basket, I guess, of something and trust it. I know for a while, most of my younger years, I always wondered, am I going to heaven? I asked Jesus into my heart, but am I really going to heaven? And it wasn't until I was going through my second divorce that I finally actually felt close to God and felt like I am going to heaven because I had come back to him from straying so long doing life the way I wanted to do it and it wasn't working. And I just really felt, I felt his presence there, if that makes any sense. I just felt that he loved me, even though I had made... made mistakes, just like you do with a child. You know, they made a mistake. You don't kick them out for it. You love them through it and you help them through what they're going through. And that's just really what I felt. in that moment of realizing that I had spit in my father's face for so long and said, I don't like the way you're doing things. You know, I'm going to do it the way I want to do it. And I did. And then I had moment where I needed to cry out to my dad and say, dad, please help me. I can't do this without you. And he didn't reject me. He brought me to him. He loved on me. And he helped me through that situation and told me that he will always take care of me. And he hasn't Stop. And that's why I think I cling so tightly to them is because I've actually felt what it's like to reject somebody, but still have them love you through that. And I don't think I ever really felt that kind of love before, not even from my family. And it's not that I had a terrible family. It's just they didn't know how to love me in the way that I needed to unconditionally. So I always felt, was I good enough for everybody? was I good enough for God. And I hated that feeling. So that's why I left in the first place. I just couldn't handle that pressure anymore. But then when I came back and I realized it's not about me and how I felt and am I good enough, I realized I wasn't. So it was so freeing for me that I was just able to allow him to love me even when I make stupid choices, which I still do. We all have our moment. Like you said, people are going to do what they're going to do. I believe as a Christian, I believe that because of what happened in the Garden of Eden, we're all born with a sinful nature. You know, some people amp it up through life and they, you know, continue to do awful things. And some people try really hard to do really good things and they hope that that'll get them to heaven. And according to what I believe, I don't believe that that does get you to heaven. But I'm not going to discourage people from wanting to do positive things, depending on the kind of relationship we have or what we're talking about at the moment. I might tell them that in a obviously a loving way, not like you're doing it wrong. But, you know, I might tell them my position or something and they can do whatever they want with that. But I would never discourage someone from doing something good, even if I didn't feel that the way they were doing it was. accurate to what I believe, I guess. So, yeah, I mean, we should all be striving to do good things. And I think deep down inside, we all realize that we have this ability to do something good, which is why we do want to do something good. And we feel good after we do it. And it makes us want to do it more. It's really hard to just have faith in things. And I will be honest, there are still moments. Not that I... don't believe in God or that I don't believe I'm going to heaven. But I have these moments of, well, what if I'm wrong about all this? And they're very fleeting moments because I think about it in the terms of, well, I've done it the other way and that I didn't enjoy at all. So I don't have any problems with the way I'm doing things now. So if I'm wrong, I guess I'm just wrong. It's not like I was like, oh no, I missed out on an opportunity to do this. You just got to figure out what you're going to do with that in that moment. Is it going to make you crumble? Is it going to keep you from pursuing life, from doing things? You just have to figure out how you're going to handle that curiosity, I guess.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's just so profound what you've just shared. I don't remember the name of the person. There's a historical figure. I think he was a theologian or a philosopher. Basically what he said. is you can't know as a person, you know, living your limited existence, whether God is real or not. But if you live a virtuous life and a holy life and follow something, it won't hurt you. And it might bring some good into the world, you know? So it's basically one of these, like, there's no downside to living a good life where you, you know, do virtuous acts, not because you want to get a reward per se though i mean who doesn't like to get a reward um but um but that you know there's there's no downside to virtue basically and the other thing you said which i i also i i absolutely agree with you and i remember hearing this in in mass one day where it was like it's not about you you know it's not about whether you um you know, whether God loves you, it's not a question of whether God loves you. The door on God's side is always open. You know, the question is whether you can receive it, you know, which is exactly like what you were just speaking about.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's I had to make my faith my own because my whole life I grew up in a Christian home. So I knew all the stories. I knew it all in my head, but it hadn't actually reached my heart to a point where it really changed me. The only reason I accepted him into my heart when I was 12 is because I was scared into it while watching an old 70s left behind movie. And I didn't want to be left behind. So that's what me and my brother did was accept him into our hearts. But there wasn't this big thing that happened of, oh, I just felt different and everything. There was no feelings. And then not too long after, my parents ended up getting divorced and our family split. And there was just so much emotion that went into that whole situation. And then I just started doing. I wanted to be a people pleaser. So I just, that's what I did is I pleased people. I did. everything for them to make them love me and to enjoy being around me. I didn't know who I was. I'm still figuring that out. It was just really frustrating and it just boiled to a head where I'm like, okay, I'm done with this. I'm just done with everything. I just, I fractured completely and left it all. I was going through my second divorce. It really blindsided me, but it got me thinking. in a way where I realized if I'm going to come back to God, it has to be because I want to come to God, not because I was told this is what you should do. I was very sheltered spiritually. I only knew of Baptist Christianity, I guess, maybe Southern Baptist. I didn't even branch out into the whole you know, learning about deliverance or speaking in tongues, all these different things. Like I didn't know enough about that other than this is stuff you don't touch. So I was very sheltered with all that. But when I came back to Christ, I realized I needed to figure out who God is, not who people are telling me he is. And that was a profound moment for me where I realized I need to be more open to talking to people who may. be different from me on things they believe because I need to know if the God that I think I'm serving is actually the true one from what is in the Bible or if I'm just following what someone else is telling me. I never want to be stuck in that position again. So that's why I'm trying to put myself out there more to talking with people that maybe I don't completely agree with or I just don't understand where they're coming from. Because I want to be more open to understanding what they think. Perhaps we have more in common than I thought we did. So I've been trying really hard to be more aware of the fact that I just want to know who God is. I don't want people to tell me who he is. I want him to tell me who he is. So I read the Bible and I try not to read myself into it. And I try to figure out exactly what he's telling me. And if I talk... to other people, I try to line it up with what the scripture says. If I have to ask questions, I'll ask questions. But I'm trying really hard not to be so judgmental and so closed-minded as I used to be. I used to be very closed-minded. Like we would not be having this conversation even five years ago. That's how bad it was. I just, I didn't want to talk to people that may have different ideas than me, you know. just, it was scary for me, but I just, I don't want to be that way anymore. Yeah, it is. And it's like, I don't want that to keep me from having a meaningful conversation with somebody, maybe bringing something to it that maybe God wants to show them something. Maybe there was something I had to say to this person. Maybe there wasn't. Maybe we were just having an amazing conversation. I just, I didn't want to be closed off to that anymore.

• Speaker #0

  When I was younger, especially in terms of... political conversations. I was right. And if you disagree with me, you were wrong. And it was my job to show you the error of your ways and bring you around to my way of thinking. That's exhausting. It's not true. I mean, it's really, it's really exhausting when, you know, you are responsible for, you know, getting people thinking the right way. Who wants to listen to someone who is completely unwilling to entertain, to even listen, whether or not they ever agree with you, but to even listen to what the other person thinks. And, um, you know, you're never gonna, um, have a meaningful conversation. that you then go back and think about later and think, wow, that was interesting. I mean, it's just like writing in a way.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, no, that won't work for my story. I can't do that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That's like, oh, maybe that was actually a really good idea.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  You know, letting go of needing to be right has really made my life a lot easier. And I think it's made, it's not. just that it's made my life easier, but it's made me a more open person. And it's made me, I think, a more pleasant person to be around. And again, not that it's our job in life to be pleasant for other people.

• Speaker #1

  It's hard to be around somebody who's constantly just wanting to say, oh, well, you're wrong. And this is why. So you don't want to hang out with that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, yeah. And I mean, one of the things I found really interesting when I was in school was the more I study different faith traditions, the more I found that whatever you believe about God, there are some central ideas that pop up again and again and again, you know, like doing good works. And, you know, if you aren't so caught up in all the parts of it or the mechanics of this tradition versus this tradition. There's a lot there that's similar.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and it's a great jumping off point to talk to someone, too, and say, well, hey, what exactly do you believe? Because someone could be like me where they said, oh, I'm a Christian. Okay, well, why? Or, you know, what do you believe? If you had asked me, I don't even know what I would have said back in the day. I know what I would say now. But if you asked me back when I was even in college, I don't. think I'd know how to answer that other than what I had been fed my whole life. But was it, is that what I truly believe? I don't think I would have known. And it would be the same as talking to someone who says, oh, I go to a Catholic church. Oh, well, what do you believe? They might not actually believe Catholic doctrine. They just grew up Catholic. And you might learn something new about them that maybe that's not truly where they believe. Yeah, we can't be so quick to just leave the labels on people when they say, oh, well, this is what I believe. And be so closed minded to say, oh, OK, well, then I'm not talking to you.

• Speaker #0

  It's our preconceptions of what we think something is. It can be very limiting. And, you know, sometimes like, you know, somebody believes something and you just know that's not for you. somebody makes a suggestion with your writing and you just know that's not going to work for what you're writing. There's that too. So it's just holding those things in tension, I think, as we navigate life.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, Anne, this has been a very exciting conversation. I mean, we started off talking about books and we ended up talking about theology and somehow they both managed to be cohesive and work together. in varying ideas of how to live life. I absolutely love when conversations do those kinds of things. This is what happens when you reach out and you talk to people and just get to know each other. You don't have to have everything figured out. You don't have to believe the same things. You can have a healthy, meaningful conversation with somebody and leave. agreeing to disagree. Maybe you might pick up something new from that person. Maybe you won't, but we have to be willing to try. And that's what makes us human. That's what makes us relational. And that's what makes life meaningful is meeting new people and seeing where they come from. So thank you again for being willing to come on and talking with me.

• Speaker #0

  Well, thank you for willing to have me. I never would have thought. that writing and theology would dovetail. No,

• Speaker #1

  me neither.

• Speaker #0

  Interestingly, and so almost like two pieces fitting together as they have in this conversation. So thank you. Thank you so much.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And if people want to read your books, where can they go to find them?

• Speaker #0

  All my books are on Amazon. And if a person has Kindle Unlimited, they can read them for free. I also have a website, which is amgeber.com.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. Well, thank you again, Anne, for coming on.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you so much.

• Speaker #1

  If this episode inspired you to step out of your comfort zone, I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to leave a comment or a review. You'll find the link in the show notes. Thanks again for joining me today. I look forward to our next conversation.