- Dean Griffith
Welcome again. I love you, period. Revolution Nation. I continue to use the word excited every time we have a guest on and there is no exception here. It is an honor and a privilege to have Vernon Stafford with us today. And Vernon, first and foremost, it is a privilege to call you a friend and a brother. And it's been a pleasure getting to know you. And I'm so thankful that you've been willing to come on and to share your heart with the I Love You Period Revolution Nation. Vernon is a senior executive vice president and chief audit executive for First Horizon Corporation, responsible for managing and directing corporate. Internal audit and credit risk assurance, and that doesn't even cover half of what you do. And you've got a really interesting background. You spent about 33 years at the OCC and have had an amazing career. but it's beyond that through the I love you period redemption story idea. We like to get kind of the heart behind the position, if you will. And so we're looking forward to hearing your heart and how that plays into the I love you period mission. you've been really active in the community and I'll let you share some of those things if you'd like and, uh, honored in many ways. Uh, and again, I don't have all those in front of me, but, uh, so thankful you're here and would love to just have you maybe start by telling us a little bit about your family and, uh, and then we can jump into some other things and looking forward to speaking with you today.
- Vernon Stafford
Well, Dean, first and foremost, praise God for just the opportunity to be here and speak with you. And thank you for just your friendship, first and foremost, but also for what God has laid on your heart with regard to I love you, period. Those words seem so simple, but they are, one, tremendously impactful, but they are also the words of Christ. Christ talked about the fact that we are to love God and love others. And you've summed it up here with the I love you period. And I think that that's just a great way to live out the mission that God has for us in this world. So thank you for what you're doing. Thank you. Let me start with the family that I was born into. And then I'll tell you a little bit about my family today. How's that? First and foremost, I was raised in Queens, New York, and was born as the only child of my parents, of their union, and grew up in sort of an urban setting. I grew up in the Jamaica portion. of Queens. And during those days in the early 60s through the mid-70s, it was a very pleasant, working-class community. As I got older, the 70s kind of brought in a little bit different time, a lot of drug culture and just sort of more poverty, if you will, in the city of New York. And I could see it encroaching on. in my neighborhood. And so I got caught up in probably activity that I should not have been involved in. Over time, I grew more street involved, if you will, than I did book involved. And then one day in 1974, in fact, it was the first day of the year in 1974, my dad was killed. And so that kind of rocked my world and really sent me a little bit into a period of really trying to discover exactly who I was. And so long story short, I kind of ambled along for a few years, not really sure what I, who I was supposed to be and what my purpose was in life. I ended up going to college at the request of my mom, even though I wanted to go into the U.S. Marines like my dad. And then through college, I was fortunate because I had studied accounting in high school, and then when I got to college, I did well in class, and I was able to get the attention of the cooperative education director at my school, which is Rod Williams University in Bristol, Rhode Island. And that allowed me to kind of go on from there to get a job with the federal government, as you mentioned. the OCC office of the Comptroller of the Currency. So I'm fast forward to that, to that, from that life, I actually kind of heard sort of the, the speaking of the Holy Spirit within me. And I'll tell you that story maybe a little later, but in, in any event, I ended up getting married to my wife, Barbara. We knew each other for seven years before we actually started dating. And then we started dating, got married, and we now today have three grown children. My two daughters, Danielle and Christina, and my son, Vernon III. And as I said, they're all grown. Barbara and I have an empty nest, and we are pleased to be able to see them live their lives. They're all three believers in Christ, and so we get the pleasure of watching them continue to live life in Christ. So that's a long, short story of my family, if you will.
- Dean Griffith
Gosh, there's so much in there, Vernon, and not the least of which is that it took seven years for Barbara to finally decide to marry you. We'll leave that one alone.
- Vernon Stafford
I like the way you said that, but the truth is I was a little slow on the uptake.
- Dean Griffith
You talked a little bit about kind of where you were. as a young man, and then losing your father, you know, one of the questions I have for you is, you know, maybe this is this is a story is, is we all have redemption stories in our life. And we have things that we look back on, and that really shape and mold the humans that we are today. And so you touched on that a little bit, but I'd love to hear just a little bit more about, you know, where you were. How that impacted you and how that continues to impact you today, but also your heart for the world and for others that maybe are were in similar situations that you found yourself in.
- Vernon Stafford
Yeah, good point. I appreciate the question. So at 15, I was sort of a typical city kid, really kind of. As I said before, ambling along, not really knowing what my purpose was in life. And I was getting into things that I should not have gotten into. During that period of time, I was running with gangs and started drinking alcohol at a young age, as early as 14. Started doing things that really were kind of taking me down the wrong path. And then, as I mentioned, January 1st, 1974, my dad was killed. And as you might imagine, it rocked my world. And what's even more important is my dad was really my best friend. Even though he worked a lot, he worked late shift from midnight to 8 a.m., I didn't always get to see him at the prime of the day. but every time I had the opportunity, I would spend time with him. And so he really was my best friend. So when he was killed, it really rocked my world. And because he named me Junior, one day I was sitting and thinking after his funeral about what exactly was the purpose of his life, being cut short. At a young age and having just one son that he named after himself, I realized that I didn't want his life to be in vain. And so I slowly started turning my life around. Really didn't have an understanding of God or Jesus Christ at that stage of my life, even though we went to church. I didn't really hear the gospel preached. And so I went on to college, as I indicated, really at the request of my mother. She wanted me to go to college, even though I had a desire to become a U.S. Marine, as my dad was. But I went to college and I was fortunate because I studied accounting in high school to be able to go to a school that had a good accounting program. And I did well there. They also had a cooperative education program. And I was able to do. I interned for a number of summers before I finally graduated and was offered a position upon graduation. And during my last couple of years in college, I kind of felt like there was something more I needed to have in my life. And I realized that I didn't have a church relationship. So I started looking for a church in college and didn't find one. Graduated a couple of years after I graduated, I actually went to a conference, and on the Sunday of the conference, they actually had a service, a faith-based service. So I attended that service and actually heard the gospel for the very first time in my life, or at least as clear as I could ever remember hearing it. And so I had an immediate response, and I went down and took the hand of the preacher that day and gave my life to Christ. The problem was, is I was outside of my home city. So when I got back to my home city, I had to then try to find a church. I found one on the recommendation of a friend and started attending the church. And it was a pretty good church. They had Bible studies and they had a small group for young folks. And so I got involved with a young, a group of young folks and was studying the Bible to some degree, but. What I learned over the years is that I really wasn't walking with Christ. But suffice it to say, when I heard the gospel, I sincerely gave my life to Christ because I recognized that God had redeemed me from being lost by simply the fact that Jesus died on the cross for me. And that was clear when I heard it. And again, I'd never heard it said so well. And so my response was immediate. but without a true understanding of what it means to be saved, what it means to follow Christ, I still kind of wandered. I didn't really understand how my life needed to change. And so even though I gave my heart to Christ, what I recognized a few years later was that I was still on the throne of my heart and I hadn't yielded my heart truly to Christ to place him on the throne. And so some years later, I actually went through an experience of hearing in my soul and my spirit from God about the fact that I needed something more, something more sincere. to truly be a disciple of Christ. And that's when I got discipled. I participated in a discipleship ministry and actually understood that I was really still being selfish, if you will, and I was still doing the things that Christ did not approve of. And it was at that point that I I finally understood that my life really needed to change. The things that I was doing, alcohol, drinking still, still doing things that really weren't the fitting of a person who supposedly was following Christ. And so I gave all of that up, threw all the alcohol away. And was able to really focus my life on the one who redeemed me. So that's kind of in a short but long story of kind of how I was redeemed by Jesus and how I really understood the difference between just being a churchgoer versus being a true disciple of Christ.
- Dean Griffith
Well, thanks for sharing that. And I think what I hear in that, again, in the spirit of I love you, period, you and I, in fact, some of these things I didn't know, we share some similar stories. And we're, you know, we came to a belief, but then you realize, well, it really doesn't matter if you're not actually living it out. And I think the pivotal moment and what I hear and hear in your story and so many others is that when we begin to understand the love that God has for us, that's unique. It's not like the love that we give, which is contractual often and has conditions. And whether we like that to say that or not, we all tend to love that way. But when we begin to understand that we have a God that loves us without conditions. that's something worth giving your life to. And to quote Roger Williams of your alma mater, I think he said something to the effect of forced worship is basically, it's offensive to God. And what I think he meant by that is just like us, we don't want to have forced adoration or friendships or love. that doesn't feel good. You love to know that somebody is doing something for you, committing to you because they love you. And I think God is no different than that. And so I love you sharing that story. And it really probably translates well into How you show up at work and how you view your role at work. You know, we've talked about, you and I have, about this I love you period as an ethos, if you will, of culture. Not just, you know, our homes and civic organizations and churches and all those things, but really in the place that we spend most of our waking hours and that's at work. So I'd love to hear as you think about the simplicity of love. as the core of anything good that we do, how is that, you know, maybe perhaps more so now, how do you view your role here at the, at work or as a leader, uh, in, in, in light of what you just shared, you're committing your life to Christ and, and committing your life to love others the way that Jesus did?
- Vernon Stafford
I think that's a great question, Dean. And Going back to the point that we talked about earlier is that when Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment, his response was to love God. And then he said, the second is like it. It is to love others. And so when you think about that, love is at the core of. everything we should be doing, everything, not just loving God, but he also said to love others, love people. And at our church, we use that as sort of our mission statement. It's love God, love people, share Jesus, make disciples. And that should be the bedrock of what we do. But loving is the first two of that. And so for me, what I try to do is to live that out. And that doesn't mean just because we talk about love that we are a pushover or that we don't have a backbone and we don't get firm with people or maybe even sometimes angry with people. But remember, the Bible says, be angry, but do not sin. And so for me, it's as I live life in this world, whether it is with my family, whether it's with my job and the people I work with or. others in my community, my first response should be love. And I try to resolve any conflict or any disruption that I experience with an act of love. It doesn't mean, again, I'm being soft or wimpy. It really means that I have the other person's interest in mind, that I'm not acting out of selfishness. And so when I think about guiding myself that way through life or through my career, that's how I try to demonstrate how being a Christian is. inseparable from who I am on a daily basis. And so that as I interact with colleagues, then I want to make sure that I'm always giving the first opportunity to express love and give love to those individuals despite how they might respond or react. So I try to make sure that that's just part of of who I am, even in this sensing A world where we know that we're not always going to be met with reciprocal love, that we always have to figure out exactly how do we navigate through the unloving world in which we live, but still live out the principles that Jesus laid out for us.
- Dean Griffith
That's great. And, you know, what he goes on to talk about, too, is it's easy to love people that are easy to love. people that we like, people that like us, people that agree with us. And you mentioned conflict, which is really, and I certainly won't take credit for it, but I've read a lot about it and talked with a lot of folks about it. They talk about, you know, the experts, the intimacy, which is not just in marriage relationships or partnerships. It's something that we build in our friendships and our work relationships. It's a word that has gotten. maybe misrepresented. But I think about, you know, what God does with us is he builds an intimate relationship and then we're able to do that with other people where it's most difficult, but where I think it gets built the most, you know, intimacy, it can't be built when things are going well. You know, it's easy to love when you're feeling good. And so you referenced that. And I love the fact that you did, Vernon, because you're right. Sometimes we use love as a reason or as an excuse to not fight, to not be angry over things that are perhaps injustices in the world. You know, whether that's conflict in the workplace or that's so much of what goes on in the world today, sometimes we do fight for love. And so when you think about some of those places, and again, as a leader. in many areas. I'd love to hear more about that idea of conflict and how you handle that, how you see that and opportunities that we really have to build love, to build intimacy with other people and to really show them the love of God. And maybe you've got an example for that.
- Vernon Stafford
Yes. So as you might imagine, you know, this being a leader. that people do not always respond to your leadership the way you would like them to respond. And that means that whether it's people who are in your responsibility, your sphere of influence, or peers who you don't necessarily have influence over, but you have the ability to persuade and influence through your charisma. intelligence, if you will, to kind of be able to help them appreciate your point. But we also know that being a leader means that you'll sometimes run across someone who is opposed to your perspective and your view. And that can be people who work for you, but it also obviously can be people who are your peers or people who are your superiors. And so what I try to always do, and I had this situation just a couple of days ago. I have a relatively new leader who was having a challenge leading someone else in their responsibility. And so I had to think about how would I want someone to approach me to give me feedback on the fact that I wasn't leading quite as well as I could lead. And so what I tried to do was really think about. with love in mind, how I would receive getting feedback that I don't necessarily want to hear, but I need to hear. And so I try to do that sort of in my mind and through the prayer that I have with God to kind of help me prepare for what I see is going to be a potential conflict. And that helps me a lot to be able to do that is praying about it is one thing, but then thinking it through, God really kind of speaks to my heart to guide me on how I can best have a conversation that can be productive instead of destructive and allow myself to be put into the shoes of the... The position of the other person, having empathy, right? That's the whole definition of empathy, being able to relate to somebody else's situation. And when I approach things in that manner, I think I usually will receive a better result, but then also a better outcome overall. And so to me, it's a demonstration. And a validation of what the Bible tells us, that it is better for us to love than to fight our enemies. Right. God says, love your enemies and he will take care of the rest. And so if we have faith, if we really live by faith, then we can give ourselves over to that understanding and demonstrate love towards somebody, even when they are an enemy. or they're someone who are opposing us or someone we're in conflict with. So I don't worry about whether that person's going to embrace me and love me as much as I try to make sure that I'm performing in the way that God would have me perform, leading with love and letting him do the rest in terms of the outcome. Does that make sense to you?
- Dean Griffith
That makes total sense. And I think as I was listening to you. If I'm honest, I think, well, most of the times the people that would be in the enemy category, quote unquote, are those that I actually love. They can, you know, and I've become a short term enemy to a lot of people that love me. So, you know, those are often the ones that are closest to us or the hardest to really love in the way that you're talking about in some ways. it's easier to love somebody that you know you don't have to, as my old therapist used to say, if you don't have to be in bed with that person at night, then it's a lot easier to let it go and to not be too concerned about it. But you mentioned this idea, and I think I love you, period. One of the primary messages of this is that God is in the identity giving business. And what we mean by that is what you said, Vernon, about I don't necessarily have to worry about whether or not everybody likes me, whether they agree. And some of that, in fact, I would say all of that is really driven by something you and I have talked about a few times, which is the security. that God gives us when he gives us an identity. And that's so much of what we're about is giving that message of nothing that you've ever done, can do, will do is unredeemable. And God will give you an identity, which is so important, especially in this day and age where there is so much confusion over identity. And so you and I've talked about this idea of an experienced, in fact, maybe you'll have a story on that too. I've got plenty that I have where I had to realize, man, I'm just really insecure in this area. And this is what drove my behavior. And if I'm a leader and I don't understand that, then I'll often do things solely because I have the position of power. and I have to look back and go, well, was that really loving? Or was that because I'm really insecure? And so then I'm using my position to kind of essentially punish people because, you know, where does their paycheck come from? Or I have the ability, the power. So you and I have talked about that. I'd love to hear your thoughts about security versus insecurity. And, and what security does for you as a leader versus some of the symptoms of insecurity.
- Vernon Stafford
Yeah, yeah. That's such an important point, Dean. When I think about identity, as you talked about, the Bible really talks about how important it is to recognize our identity in Christ. When you think about identity, you also have to think about assignment, because God not only gave us an identity in Christ as a child of his, he's also given us an assignment for our journey here on earth. Not everybody recognizes what their assignment is. Not everybody understands or appreciates that. And in the book of Titus, Paul was writing to Titus really to give Titus his assignment. assignment. And Paul started the chapter with, I, Paul, he basically said he was a servant of God and a disciple of Christ. And so the fact that he was a servant of God, that's his identity. But his job, his assignment was to be a disciple of Christ. And I believe that when he was clear in his assignment, being a disciple of Christ, it, it. It really took away insecurities that he had, because remember, Paul was the person who was persecuting Christians and he was persecuting those who believed in Jesus. And then all of a sudden he had an awakening and he was now on the same side of those Christians fighting for Christ.
- Dean Griffith
can you imagine the insecurity he must have had initially, thinking these people are not going to accept me, they want to string me up and do away with me. But when he spent time alone with God, And he was really discipled. I think his insecurities went away because he recognized that his assignment was, number one, he was called by God to do this assignment. But then also, the scripture says that to those he calls, he equips. He was also equipped to do the job. And when we are equipped, especially when we're equipped by God, that really takes the fear away. and the insecurities from us. And we become much more secure in who we are and how we're going to carry out the assignment. And so for me, once I became a believer, a follower of Christ, not just a believer in Christ, because we know that Satan believed in Christ, but he was not a follower of Christ. Once I became a follower of Christ and I understood what his calling was for me, then it gave me greater confidence, no matter what situation I'm in, to be able to carry out my calling, to carry out my assignment. And so in doing that, in my everyday environment, when I am carrying myself as a child of God, and I first focus on Christ in my day, because every day I start out reading my scripture and having my devotion time, and that empowers me. That increases confidence within me. It encourages me. And so I can go out and be confident. And as you and I talked about, confidence doesn't mean arrogance. Some people see that if you're confident that you're an arrogant person. And I don't believe that that's the intent here. Christ was confident. He was not arrogant. In fact, people referred to him as humble. And we also associate his leadership with servant leadership, right? Servant leadership means that we place others first, not ourselves first. We are looking out for those who are in our care. And so when we have that confidence, it doesn't mean that we're arrogant, we're boastful, we're conceited, but it means that we are confident in the assignment that God has given us. We're confident in his calling. and his equipping so that we can carry out the assignment. But then we are also humbled recognizing that it is not we who are doing it, but it is Christ who lives inside us, who actually allows us to be able to do the things that we do. And when we do some mighty strong things, some mighty unbelievable things, we always have to keep ourselves in check and recognize that it is not me that does it, but I am the vehicle that Christ gives me. uses to be able to get his work done. And so when I keep that in mind, it helps me to keep myself in check. Even though I have to be confident in what I do, it keeps me to being humble and being a servant leader at all times.
- Vernon Stafford
Vernon, I'm disappointed. I didn't realize you'd ever made any mistakes. Every day. I love, again, love what you said. There's so many different avenues we could go. based on what you said. But again, in the conversations you and I have had over the years, and even just as we continue to gain a greater understanding of humility as a root of confidence, which isn't often put together, at least as far as I've seen. But I love your point. And obviously using somebody like Apostle Paul, who whether you're a Christian or not, you know the name. and having my own personal redemption story and looking back over the past and going, good grief, that's ugly. There's a lot of my story that is shameful. And yet when you realize the true redemption and love that God gives you, yes, just like Paul, and just like you, I'm sure. you're always going to have what I call built-in humility. It's part of the system now. I mean, I can't get rid of it because I always know what my story is, what I'm capable of. And yet what that really does is it plays more into the security that, oh, wait, I don't have to. I don't have to provide my own security. God does that for me. And that gives you a tremendous amount of confidence. And I think that's, again, what the invitation of I love you period, God's message from his heart to ours is. I've talked about this at some point early on. He's not just calling us to say, hey, you know, just be glad you're at the table. be glad you have a uniform, he's actually saying, look, when you begin to understand what I've done for you, how I love you, the identity I'm giving you, that will make you tremendously confident. And yes, that may be confused as arrogance at times, and that's okay. God looks at the heart. And so I love what you shared. And I'd love to hear You maybe expand on that a little bit. I'm going to ask the question and probably know the answer, but as you look across the landscape, across many companies and leadership within those companies, do you see a lot of that kind of insecurity playing out just really across? I mean, gosh, it's a... not just an American thing. I mean, this is a worldwide thing that, you know, people have insecurities, but I mean, where do you, how do you see that? I mean, I know we see a lot of that, but, you know, as you think about some of those areas, I don't know if that question makes sense, but I'm not sure that I always see it working super well. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on kind of current leadership and again, not picking anybody out here. It's just as a whole. and how that really translates into a lot of the cultures that these companies have and why people who are in those companies will often say, I don't want to be here. The only reason I'm here is because I have to make money and I've got to have a paycheck. And so what that looks like when there is insecurity and then what that environment looks like when you have leaders that are secure and understand their purpose and their calling.
- Dean Griffith
Yeah, yeah. I think that that's an excellent question because to me, Dean, that really gets at the core of why Christ had to come and redeem us. When you think about the fact that we were born into sin. Right. The fact that from the point that we are born into this world and growing up, we're a sinful being. And at the core of sin, in my view, is selfishness. Everything that you think about when it comes to sinful activity is because we want what we want. And when we go about life in that manner, we care less about others. And that's why the statement of I love you, period, is so important, because it puts the focus on the other person, as I talked about earlier, rather than on ourselves. And if I love you and you put a period on the end of it, that means that there's nothing else. I love you, regardless of what you do to me. So there's unconditional love. I love you, period. And the period also tells me that there's a finality to that, that that's it. Statement, drop the mic, right? The point is, is that attention that we put on others is really the focal point. So in leadership today, people have to be in a position to give up that selfish attitude. And that's hard. Even if they're older and they've been through things, it's hard to every day think about putting others first. But the Bible tells us that every day we are supposed to put on a new self. The old is new, right? Every day we are to pray for God to instill in us more of him, less of us. And so when you think about this idea of selfishness. in the workplace and the fact that many leaders don't do it very well, it comes down to me, what I like to use as a term that everyone can relate to, is emotional intelligence. We can hire people that have very great technical skills. They can be the best IT person, have that technical skill there. They can be the best auditor as the people I work with. But when it comes to leadership, if they don't have a strong emotional intelligence, then they're going to be challenged in how they relate to people. And so for me, having a high emotional intelligence says that you do a self-assessment of yourself regularly, that you keep yourself in check, not putting yourself first, but really trying to do the best on behalf of. The company, the organization you work for, the people you work with. And when you have that type of attitude, I think you lead better. You lead with humility, yet confidence, but you're able to relate to people a lot better, a lot more effectively because you... You are self-aware. Having self-awareness demonstrates emotional maturity and emotional intelligence. And so I think the whole message of the Bible is that we as Christians, we're supposed to be better in the workplace. And so to your question, we don't always see that because even as a Christian, not everybody is willing to die to self and to... put on more of Christ every day. And that's a humbling thing to do because we are selfish people, as I said. And if we continue to want things our way, then we are not dying to ourselves. And in leadership, that's how you become most effective. So the people that I've worked with over the years, I've seen both very humble leaders, but I've seen the arrogant leaders. I am blessed today. To have the opportunity to work for a leader who doesn't see himself as everything or the end all, or he doesn't see himself as sort of the ultimate leader for everyone. He sees himself as really just trying to do well by the organization, the shareholders, the stakeholders, and trying to do the best job that we can as a company. company together. And so not every leader approaches it that way. And so I think that the challenge in leadership is really, it really comes down to having more of a selfless servant leadership attitude. Again, that doesn't mean that you're a pushover. It doesn't mean that you're wimpy. It doesn't mean that you don't stand up for the things that you're principled on, the values that you have. it does mean that you're not putting yourself first in everything you do or in the most things that you do on a daily basis.
- Vernon Stafford
Yeah. And I think, again, the common misconception about servant leadership, humility, selflessness. You know, one of the things I try to teach my kids when we do talk about the Bible and the principles in the Bible and some of the things that God commanded us to do. If you see it as a mandate, then we ultimately want to bow up against that. But what I've tried to do with the kids as we talk about this, and quite frankly, I didn't learn this super well as a kid in some of the churches I was in. It was pretty much, well, you do it because that's what it says you do. Well, I'm not sure that's ever really motivated anybody. Certainly didn't motivate me. But when I began to understand that everything that God does and asks us to do is for our good. So when he's asking us to be servant leadership, to be humble, to love others, not just a little, but extravagantly where it's uncomfortable, we are not left hanging when we do that. And so I would like to hear your own personal experience as you do that. And I'm sure there's been times that you haven't done that well. And but when you do that, well, how God. brings you fulfillment and real purpose. And I'd love to hear that from you and some of your own experience in that.
- Dean Griffith
Yeah, I've been blessed to now be being a saved Christian for almost 40 years. And then when you add on top of the fact that I wasn't walking with Christ for maybe the first 10 years of that period, it took me a while to kind of wake up and figure it out. I had my struggles in life and in my career for quite a period of time until I started figuring out that it wasn't all me. I wasn't the center of the universe and things didn't revolve around me. And so once I started figuring that out, I had less conflict in life, whether it be in In the work environment, the conflict started to diminish greatly, and I started recognizing that I needed to put others first. When I started doing that, life really started getting better. and the, I guess the humbling aspect of it that we all encounter, or maybe I shouldn't say all, but most of us encounter is when we're in relationship with another person. And I mean, intimate relationships. So I'm speaking spouse when, when I got married and I didn't get married until age 34. So I had 20, I had 10 years on my own before I got married. And of course I did things my way. But when I got married, I had to learn to do things that weren't always my way. And I wasn't always going to get my way being married. And I shouldn't seek to try to get my own way all the time. I had to learn to put my focus on my wife rather than on my own selfish needs and desires. And Dean, it didn't come right away. Let me tell you, it took a number. years for me to give up my bravado, to give up my own insecurities, and to recognize that I could let go and I could trust in my wife because God had me. And God's requirement of me was to make sure that I put my wife before me. And if I didn't do that, God would be displeased. So as I started learning that, I had less confidence. conflict with my wife. We had greater harmony in our marriage. We were on the same page, and really things started blossoming to the point that we lived life together in the manner that Christ would have us. So we've been married now 31 years. We are now empty nesters, as I described earlier, and we're blessed to really like one another. And that comes only because, and I say not only do we like one another, but we're also two very different people. My wife doesn't see things the way I do necessarily. And we like different things from the movies that we select to watch or from the things, the ways we like to spend vacations. We're different people. And so I have learned to really seek to please her before I please her. please myself. And that gives me such joy because she receives it so well. So that's in the marriage relationship. And the same is really translatable to the work environment as well. When we're in the work environment and we demonstrate, I love you, period. Not that we are walking around saying, I love you, I love you, I love you, but that we are serving. And as you know, Very well, the word love is a verb. So it's an action. Right. And so you can talk love all the time. But what people remember is how you serve love, how you act through love. And so when we do that in the work environment, it really endears people to us because we're putting on the clothing and the skin of Christ and they're seeing Christ in us. Sometimes people ask me if I'm a Christian just because of the way I treat them. And that's the way it should be. A Christian should be identified because they first act in love. And when people recognize that I love you, period, that's it. Then they know that you got that from Christ. Because it doesn't come from us as selfish beings. It comes from the grace that Christ gives to us through the redemption. that he provided to us.
- Vernon Stafford
Well, I love too that not one of these statements that you've made involved another person changing. so you can be in a better place. And I think that's a trap that I've certainly got caught in many times. Well, if I just had this, or if this person wasn't doing this, or this person wasn't in the picture, then life would be better. And yes, I understand there are times when really out of love, as you've referenced earlier, you do need to Yeah, for lack of better terms, get out of Egypt to use the biblical reference and or you need to separate ways. And sometimes that's the most loving thing you can do not only for yourself, but for another person. But I love that you you talk about it in a way of always we call it in the 12 step program, always taking a moral inventory of ourselves, sweeping our side of the street, not worrying about somebody else's. And until I really began to go through that process and my journey. I didn't realize how much I tried to clean other people's side of the street. I would couch it and manipulate it and say things that I thought would sound good. But at the root of it, it was me trying to force my will on somebody else or try to get them to see things my way. And when I let go of that, as you referenced, I mean, it's a scary place as a leader. To really let go of that natural inclination to want to control, to manipulate. But when you do, you first and foremost, as you referenced, you experience peace. And we come back to that security word. So, you know, again, in the spirit of redemption, I'm sure there's people who listen to our conversation who will think, I haven't really done that well. I may not say that to other people, but I haven't done that well and I've been doing it for so long. How do I change now? And I think what we're offering to them is there's freedom, there's peace available. And I would go on further and say, and this gets into another conversation, but the things that we look back over and regret or maybe have shame over. I think it's important to note that God is redeeming us all the time, even when we don't recognize it. And so sometimes we have the greatest impact and to use the career stage, we can often have the greatest impact. toward the tail end of the career as we've learned things, as we've experienced, as we've had maybe some immense failures. And so I want to hear your heart for those leaders and individuals who maybe feel the weight of it's too late. They may not say it that way, but it's too late. I've not done this well. I'm at the tail end of either my career, my life. And the message of I love you, period, at the core of it is no, it's not. And you can have so much impact now at such a time as this. Maybe you have more impact now by being authentic about those mistakes, about those failures. So I'd love to hear that idea of. redemption, then it's not too late. And you can have tremendous impact, even though you may have done something that you look back and go, I would have done that differently. And then that leads into this idea of authenticity. It's a word that gets used so much, but it really is important. I think it's especially important to some of these younger generations as they come up. So I want to hear your experience, maybe your message to leaders who feel that way, but then your experience of as you've stepped into being authentic. and sharing and being vulnerable and how for me, and maybe this is for you as well, I used to think, man, if I do that, people are going to see me as weak. And the astounding thing is, is that people actually are drawn to that and they respect you even more when you're willing to. So two questions, one kind of about the redemption piece. And then and then the second is really speaking to that true authenticity, which starts with the leaders and being vulnerable and sharing their own weaknesses.
- Dean Griffith
Yeah, two excellent points. Starting out with your point about having regrets and saying it's too late. And what I like about emphasizing that point is, one, when we think about regrets that we have of the past, it really tells us that we've not forgiven ourselves. And that's a heavy burden that people carry. We're supposed to forgive others for their offenses against us. And that sometimes seems difficult to do because we want to hold on to the hurt that that person made us feel, the shame or what have you. But the hardest part of that is that we don't forgive ourselves. And when we don't forgive ourselves, we carry that burden around continuously and it prevents us. It doesn't free us up. To do the things that, again, going back to my point about assignment, to do the things that God has for us to do. And so even if someone has regrets about the way they've conducted themselves, but now they've come to an aha moment in life and says, you know what? I can be better. I can do better. They still have the runway, the rest of the journey in life, because remember, this is all a journey. We never arrive at a destination. We are continually journeying through life until Christ calls us home. And so if someone is struggling with those regrets and they haven't forgiven themselves of their past, my message to them would be, you've got to let go. And let God, as the saying is often given, letting go of your own regrets, letting go of not being able to forgive yourself and yield to God. Let God guide you and direct you. And everything going forward is where your benefit will be and where Christ will smile at what you've become and what you are becoming. And so... that's the first thing to understand is that just because we've had 50 or 60 years of bad judgment or hurting people or what have you, you can still have another 10, 20, or 30 years of doing things the way God would have us to do. The second point in terms of that humility, if I understood your question correct.
- Vernon Stafford
Well, and some of that authenticity as leaders sharing those things and being vulnerable. Yeah.
- Dean Griffith
And to me, to me, authenticity starts with humility. If you're going to be real with people, you have to first have humility. You've got to be humble and be vulnerable. Being vulnerable is not always comfortable because we don't like being put in a situation where people see our warts, the things that we've done, the bad person that we have been. The truth is, though, we've all fallen short of God's glory, right? None of us have led a perfect life. None of us have met God's standard. So it can often be intimidating because we think people are thinking about us the way we think about other people. Meaning that we judge others and say, oh, I'm not as bad as that person. I wouldn't do what he did. And so we think and project that people are thinking the same thing about us. So we can't. expose ourselves and walk around and tell people I've messed up, I've screwed up, I've done these bad things because we want to get portray an image that we've got it all together. And the truth is, I don't. I don't have it all together. Every day, it's a struggle. But I learned years ago that I can help others when I share my testimony. I can help others live a better life for Christ when they know they see me, you know, dressed well and I've got a nice career. None of that means anything if my home life is a wreck. My kids hate me. I mean, if those things are true in my life, then all the other things people see about me mean nothing. So I've got to be willing to be real with people. Otherwise, I'm just putting on a facade and I'm not being authentic. I'm not living out a life for Christ. And so authenticity comes when we are willing to recognize that we don't have to be perfect. We don't have to have it all together. But we can really have an impact on others if we're willing to be honest and sincere about who we are, even with all of our failings or falling short at different times, making mistakes. All of those things are part of life and the journey of life that we carry from the time we're born to the point that God calls us home.
- Vernon Stafford
I get a picture as you're talking that I think... And since we're really focusing on leadership, which by the way, doesn't mean that it's necessarily a formal title. You know, one of the leaders that you referenced earlier challenged me with being a lateral leader.
- Dean Griffith
That's no matter where you are, that you're constantly looking for opportunities to lead, which if you view that as serve, then it really changes things. And I think I have this picture that we all have this key that we walk around with that we can choose to help others and unlock prisons for other people. And what you talked about with that not being able to forgive yourself, it is not certainly not. absolving yourself from wrongdoing, but it's understanding that God forgives everything and all people. And when you receive God's forgiveness and you understand that, then you're more willing and humbled to use that key to unlock other people. And I think that's so much of what leadership really is. And I don't know if you've experienced this, but as God continues to work in my heart on this. really what I believe is revolutionary movement of I Love You period, I have days where I look back and it's like on paper, I feel like I haven't really accomplished a whole lot. I haven't made the widgets, so to speak. But then I'll sit down and I'll think, well, what did I do today? And when I spend most of my day trying to use that key, no matter what that is. whether that's at work or at home or just at the grocery store, restaurant, wherever you run into people. And if I look at it that way, not only does that do tremendous good for other people, but it does tremendous good for me. And it brings such peace and joy and fulfillment. So that kind of translates into... My next question for you, which is, as we think about success, you know, my dad used to say, nobody's that big of a deal. You know, somebody would be, I would think they were important. And my dad would say, you know, nobody's that big of a deal. They put their pants on the same way you do. And it really, really got ingrained in me. that not only is nobody else that big of a deal, but I'm not that big of a deal. Not in a self-loathing kind of a way, but like when you realize whatever position I have or I've attained or title or it, nobody really cares. I mean, your kids are great for that, by the way. You know, you can, you can have the most important meeting of the day and be featured in this article. on TV or whatever it is, you come home, your, your kids don't care. They just want dad. Your, your wife may not say it this way because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings, but you know, my wife's, she just wants a husband. And so I think about, you know, the joy that really, and I wrote an article about the joy of being a dream releaser leader. And so what we're talking about really is, is that idea of using that key. to unlock other people and their potential. So I wanted to hear as you think about maybe when you were younger, what success was. I mean, it sounds like a movie coming out of Queens. Versus now, where you are now and how you really view success and then that message that you would give to other. impactful leaders of how they should measure success.
- Vernon Stafford
Yeah, you've packed quite a bit in there. I'm going to see if I can... I don't know if I can get to your points, but you really talked about a lot of good things. Let me start out by making some comparisons. When I was growing up in the city of New York, the county of Queens, and the little town I was in, the little town of Jamaica, Queens. It was a true street environment. My world, if you will, really revolved around the people in the neighborhood, good, bad, or indifferent. And so success really was driven by the people who seemed to gain all the attention from others. They seemed to be the people, good or bad, who were. revered or feared by people. And that was a standard for success. And then as I got older and my perspective changed and before I became a believer, success to me was those people who were wealthy, those people who had big titles in their jobs. That was the standard for success. And then as I continued to grow and walk with Christ, I recognized that, as I said earlier, that if you are in Christ, you've been called and you have an assignment. And really the standard for success is how well you love Christ. And whether you are living out Christ's principles, again, going back to I love you, period. End of story. That's it. If you are living out a love that God has. required of us. And that is, in fact, what it is. He's required us to love others and to love him. And so if we can love, period, that to me is the standard of success. And so for me, you raised a good point because regardless of what my title is today, when I retire from this job, I guarantee you within five years, people will have forgotten about me. They won't care who the chief auditor was in 2024. They won't care about what awards I might have won or anything of that nature. It won't matter a bit. What will matter is whoever's sitting in that chair today and whoever they have to answer to at that particular time. That's what will matter. And so, as the Bible says, only those things done for Christ will last. So for me, my success measurement has to be that anyone, myself, you, Dean, any of us who live our life for Christ, who live out the godly principles that we have been taught by Christ is successful in the eyes of Christ, not in the eyes of man. Even though we know that being a Christian today is not always popular. Being a Christian in certain communities or environments can even be deadly because being a Christ follower can engender both positive as well as negative response. But regardless of the response of other people, our focus should always be upward. Our focus should always be on God and what God has given to us as our assignment and whether We carry that assignment out to his satisfaction. If we can say at the end of the day, when we meet God and he looks at our life, if he can say that he is well-pleased by a good and faithful servant, then that's where we've been successful. And so to answer your question, I don't consider myself successful today as I live. I don't care what I do. I'm not successful until I'm successful. I hear from God at the end of my day, that judgment day, when I face God and he's able to say, well done, that good and faithful servant. That's when it's success to me.
- Dean Griffith
Boy, it takes a lot of pressure off when we see it that way, doesn't it? It really, in my own life, has, again, not that I don't have aspirations, the things I'd like to do and accomplish. but those things seem to just fall into place when we focus on these. Again, regardless of your faith, these are good principles. So whether you call yourself a Christian or not, so much of what we really all universally refer to as just a good way to live, they're all based on the principles of Christ. But you hit on something that, yeah, I mean, religion. which I wouldn't call this religion, it's relationship with Christ. But I mean, so much of that is polarizing in today's world. And I think you've probably experienced this as well, as many people who are listening. Sometimes where I grew up is people would say, well, the gospel is offensive. And I remember even as a kid sitting there thinking, no, no, you're offensive. And so I think sometimes as we... We live this message out. We live this I love you period message. I tell you Vernon, I've not found anybody yet who has, when I talk about love with a period on the end, love with no conditions, I've not found anybody yet who said that message is offensive. I think it's often what we do and how we deliver it and how we live, to your point earlier, that is offensive to people. And then if they don't like it, then we just write them off as, well, they don't, you know, Christ and God's offensive to these people. So I think what you're talking about is, it's really essential. to people coming to a faith is what you said earlier. And I think that was, you know, at Antioch is where they first called them Christians because of their love for each other. So they were clearly seeing something that was different. You know, do you see this, I love you period or love as a, as a potential centerpiece or core of culture? that could be used in a corporate setting. Do you see that as something that actually could be done? And then I'd love to hear how revolutionary you think that would be if companies were known first and foremost. for how they loved one another. And then, and not only that, but then some of the results that would potentially, because obviously we've got to stay in business, we've got to make money, we've got to give a return to shareholders, all those things. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on companies that would be willing to take that risk to say, we are going to start with that. And then, and then the results that could ultimately come, you know, later down the road.
- Vernon Stafford
Yeah, I don't have any empirical data that would support this, Dean, but my suspicion is that the word love in corporate environments is not always embraced well. I think it's ironic when you think about it. If we love someone, we want the best for them. We want good things for them. But in the corporate environment, that can also be a lightning rod for, well, you are just being a wimp or you are just being liberal or you're just not recognizing that this is a dog eat dog world and you have to get all you can. And so my concern is, is that the principles people will try to put. Sort of a veneer over the word, but try to embrace the concept. What I mean by that is today, since COVID, our environment, especially in the corporate circles, we talk a lot more in leadership about empathy. Now, 10 years ago, empathy would have not been talked about as much as it is today. But because people have gone through so much. Post-COVID, there's so much trauma that people dealt with during that period and subsequent that companies recognize that we have to be a bit more empathetic toward our employees. And that means that we've got to sort of be able to put ourselves in someone's situation and relate to them. Ten years ago, or maybe 20 years ago, business was all about get what you can. And don't worry about who suffers from it. And so we didn't have empathy. And to be empathetic 20 years ago really was a negative. And so I think today, even though there is more acceptance, we're not yet there on a broad scale basis from a corporate perspective to embrace I love you, period. But I think we are moving in that direction because people. recognize that the old standard of dog eat dog, of the winner takes everything attitude at the expense of others has really not served us well. And that in order for us to really be successful by human standards, we have to start caring about others. And so I think This movement of I love you period is coming about at the right time where we can take advantage of the momentum that's been building where companies recognize that they've got to be better at caring about their employees, their associates. So I believe that the momentum is in the positive direction. But having said that, I think it's still not fully embraced. But I do think we have an opportunity here to give the message to the corporate community and help them come to an understanding and appreciation. At the end of the day, our relationships with one another on this earth come down to love, period.
- Dean Griffith
Yeah, and you know what's so exciting about that too, Vern, and we've talked about this a lot, is these younger generations. the Gen Zs, the millennials, that I believe are teaching us something because they're really embracing this idea of connection and authenticity. And I mentioned this on a previous podcast that my 18-year-old son had talked about. We're the most technologically connected, disconnected, lonely generation ever. And I thought that was really compelling when he said that, because it made me realize that, you know, we look at a lot of the younger generation and we say, well, they're always on their phones, which, by the way, I see all people on their phones. So it's not just the younger generation, but, you know, they want to be remote. They really don't connect like we think of connecting. But what I'm hearing is almost a. a revolt against some of that. Like, Hey, we actually do want to be connected. We, we do want to have human interaction. We do like to be in the office. But as I joked on, on another podcast is if I told Lulu that she was required to tell me she loved me every day. that probably wouldn't be super effective. And at some point, she just probably wouldn't want to say it. But if I really work on trying to be the kind of person and the man that she wants to say, I love you too, well, that's a whole different situation. So I think about a lot of these, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on these next generations as we need to pour into them. but what I'm hearing is, look, we want to work. We want to be excellent. We want to win. We want to be a part of something like that. We just want it to be a loving environment. We want you to, we want to know that our leaders truly care. And as you said, it's not singling anybody out, but that just hasn't been the culture in many organizations. And so I think there's an opportunity and I'd like to hear. As you think about pouring into these next generations, what that looks like from your perspective and how you would speak to leaders and how they handle that and how they navigate that, because it's it's coming, whether we like it or not. And I think it's a real opportunity for organizations to do things differently and have a culture where these younger folks are going, you know. I want to work at this place. Maybe my aspirations, as you talked about, weren't necessarily to be a banker, but I want to work for a company that has its core culture rooted in love.
- Vernon Stafford
One of the byproducts of my getting married at age 34. is that I've got younger children than my age would tell. And so that's one aspect. The other aspect is that I also have two generations in my household, if you will. So my first two kids are clearly millennials. My last child is a Gen Zer. She's 20 years old. And so I've had the opportunity. to kind of study them in this environment and particularly in this post-COVID environment. The 27 and 29-year-old, they have a different perspective and outlook on life in the post-COVID period. But the 20-year-old, Gen Zer is that child who really appreciates care, people caring for her. And not that she is a person who needs to have enablers, people who enable her and uplift her all the time, because she's also my child who can be independent. Right now, she's studying abroad and traveling all throughout Europe by herself. So she can do that. But when it comes to organizations that she's part of, she wants She wants to be embraced. She wants to be accepted. She wants to be recognized. And there are more like her in that generation. And so I think that companies, organizations are starting to recognize that as the baby boomers leave the workplace, as more millennials and Gen Zers come into the workplace in this post-COVID period, these post-COVID. Will the babies start coming in in the next 10 years? There is a different expectation, a different attitude from this generation. And so companies have to, and are already doing it, recognize that they've got to be very conscientious about their associates, about their employees, and make sure that they are identifying ways that demonstrate care for the employee. And so I do believe I believe that we will see 10 to 20 years from now, looking back, we will see how the changes have occurred because of the necessity forced by this post-COVID environment that people demonstrate more love toward one another. And so I do believe that companies will make that adjustment, that modification here over the coming. decade or so.
- Dean Griffith
Yeah. And a lot of the conversations I'm having with CEOs and leaders and other organizations, it's interesting. I mean, there's a, there's a mix. I've had conversations with some CEOs, Hey, you know, tell me about this. I love you period thing. And, uh, that sounds great, you know, but you know, this is how we do business. And I mean, yeah, we try to love people, but then I've had others who have said, Hey, we really want to sit down and talk about this. We really see this as an opportunity. And again, it's not solely the moral side of things or the theological side of things, but it's also really those leaders that are looking at generational impact and saying, you know, if we want our company to be successful, we've got to stop. and really find a way to pour into these younger generations. And so it's been interesting to hear both sides of that. But I do really think, again, kind of one of those, whether we like it or not in 20 years from now, or probably less, we're going to know whether we were successful at that or not as organizations. And I think it's a tremendous opportunity. And you spend a lot of time pouring into... younger generations, you know, not only in your current role, but also outside of your role and some of the things you're involved in, you know, we're definitely going to have to have you back on Vernon, because there's so many more things that I'd love to pick your brain on and just hear your heart. But as we wrapped up today's conversation, and I'm just so thankful that you've been willing to come on and share your heart and be vulnerable and authentic with us. When you think about, again, that message of I love you, period. And maybe this is a tough question to answer, but as you think today, when you share kind of Vernon's heart to the world, your I love you, period message to the world. What would that be today?
- Vernon Stafford
Yeah, that that is a challenging question, I think. Maybe the way I guess I would describe it is that we were all placed here on this earth by an unselfish God. And so for us, if we acknowledge that, we've got to recognize that we've got to live an unselfish life for that unselfish God. And to me, that embodies I love you, period. We're not here just solely for ourselves, as some people would like to think. We are here at the grace and at the permission and at the calling. of God. And so if we keep that in mind, I think it helps me, and I hope it helps others, recognize that our life is not our own. We were bought and paid for by the act of God. And the most unselfish act of God was the day that Christ died on the cross for our sins.
- Dean Griffith
Thank you. I'll tell you what, you answered that perfectly. And I appreciate you, again, sharing your heart with us, with the I Love You Period Revolution Nation. And we want to continue to have conversations like this that really highlight God's love for us, God's redemption for us that's available to all people. I'll reemphasize all people. And that's a whole other topic that we can get into another time in a world that's so polarized. God's love is for all people. And so let's continue to love the world wherever that may be. Whatever that is for you, let's love the world with a period on the end. And I'd also encourage those that are listening to share this with other folks so we can continue to get this message out. We'd love to hear from you as well. So, Vernon, thank you so much for taking time. I know your schedule was busy. And I love you, my friend, and I'm so grateful for you and grateful for you coming on here. And blessings to you and your family.
- Vernon Stafford
Dean, I said this at the beginning. I'll say it again. I appreciate your friendship. You have been just a great inspiration to me and I appreciate your accepting the call that God has placed on your heart for this mission of I love you, period. And just so you know, I love you, brother, period. God bless you.
