How resilience can shape the future | with Daria Nashat, Resilience and Leadership Trainer | S4E2 | Inner Green Deal - the human dimension of sustainability.

Description

What is the future without Resilience? In this month's podcast we ask Daria Nashat (she/her) how resilience can be cultivated to benefit not only individuals but also communities, societies and the planet.

Daria, a Resilience and Leadership trainer, talks about how to strengthen our resilience, what the role of stories and community is in cultivating resilience and what she means with the power of "looking beyond the walls".

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  

Daria Nashat: https://darianashat.com/

About the Inner Green Deal 

The Inner Green Deal is a non-profit organisation based in Cologne and Brussels with a growing community around the world. We address the human dimension of sustainability and support leaders, change makers and facilitators to accelerate the green transformation. We offer a range of short and longer programmes cultivating capacities such as collaboration, systems thinking and compassion.

In addition to programmes for organisations, we empower facilitators and offer train-the-trainer programmes, access to curricula and digital tools to create cohesive communities of change. Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to info@innergreendeal.com .  

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
So to me, resilience is really our ability to dance with the storms of life. And that could be at all levels. It's something we individually can do. But also given what's happening in the world and what's happening in our communities, it's very much our ability to dance with the storms that affect us collectively.
Speaker #1
Hello. welcome to the Inner Green Deal podcast, where we talk to inspiring guests about the human dimension of sustainability and explore the link between our personal journeys and the positive impacts we can have on the world. My name is Tamsin Walker. In this month's episode, we're going to be talking about resilience and how it serves as a bedrock for individual and collective growth, and how human resilience can be both informed by and reflected in the natural order of things. To explore this expansive issue with me, I'd like to welcome Daria Nashat. With a background in post-conflict development and peace and community building, she spent many years working with leaders on the importance of cultivating resilience. Hello, Daria, and welcome to the Inner Green Deal podcast.
Speaker #0
Thank you. Such a pleasure.
Speaker #1
Well, it's good to have you. I'd like to kick off by asking a question that I ask everybody, which is about place and whether there is a place that was particularly important to you when you were growing up. It could be a place in nature. And the fact that you grew up in Berlin, because I also live in Berlin, I'm very interested to know if there is somewhere that you connected with nature in your younger years while you were living here.
Speaker #0
Yes, yes. I do. I mean, growing up in West Berlin at the time, you know, that place still continues to be and feel like home. And even though there was a wall around my part of the city, there were all these lakes, there was the forest, there were parks. Berlin is a very green city. And I do remember I lived very close to lakes, so we would go there often and just... feeling being with the trees, a lot of old trees also lining my street. I still, when I go, I still recognize a lot of the trees. So I have this memory of trees, big trees, you know, giving, providing shade in the hot summers. And also the lakes, we could just, you know, little beaches, we could jump in when it got hot. The sky above Berlin is something that I miss often. uh wide open spaces interestingly given the situation uh at the time and a herd of birds in my neighborhood i was i guess i was lucky i was um living closer to the outskirts and um there
Speaker #1
were always birds birdsong that's what i recall nice well we will be coming back to nature but we're also going to be talking about... resilience over the course of our conversation. And I'm interested in this word resilience, because it's kind of one of those words that seems to have become really big. And it's thrown around a lot. I think it probably means different things to different people. It's potentially one of these words that because it's used so much that it's at risk of losing its meaning. And I wonder if you could begin by just defining what the word resilience means to you. this moment in time, at this place that we're at in the world.
Speaker #0
Yes, I'm happy to. I agree with your observation. So to me, resilience is really our ability to dance with the storms of life. And that could be at all levels. It's something we individually can do, also given what's happening in the world and what's happening in our communities. It's very much our ability to dance with the storms that affect us collectively. And I sense that sometimes we forget that this really is an ability. It's a flexibility. So resilience really is our ability to adapt, to creatively adapt, to find ways to move with, not against, what is happening. And that's a whole field of study and research. And indeed, it's become very fashionable to talk about resilience. And I'm very fortunate to be working in this field because it's a key quality, something that, you know, is part of human life and even in nature, you know, resilience. But usually we're talking about it in the context of human beings and systems and structures and organizations.
Speaker #1
Right. So you mentioned the systems, structures, organizations. I definitely want to go into that because we live in a time of multiple crises, right? And, you know, arguably that with the longest arm is the climate crisis. I know from personal experience and my journalistic work, I'm immersed in climate stories and reports and a lot of bad news. And honestly, it can drag you down. So I'm thinking it must be similar, similar. It must be a similar story for others working closely on climate topics, be they scientists, activists or people working on NGO projects or whatever. And I mean, resilience seems so essential to be able to keep doing the work that makes valid contributions to shaping a more livable future. But so where does it begin? Right. I mean, that's what interests me. Does it start with with individuals? or with teams or with whole organizations. Can you give me some insight into that?
Speaker #0
So resilience needs to happen at all levels. It's not something that we can do only at the individual level. It's a concept that works at the individual and at the collective level. And we have to think how we design environments that actually allow us to be the most resilient. If we go back to some of the building blocks or the pillars of resilience, there are four things we need to keep in mind. So the first is resilience builds on our personal characteristics as an individual. It builds on our belief systems and our values. It builds on the knowledge and the tools we have. And it also is really very much... grounded in our social support system. And so some of these aspects are at the individual level. But as soon as we talk about belief systems and values, there's very little distinction between individuals and our collective narratives, the cultural narratives that we live by. And I do see that when we talk about resilience, especially given and such a time of transition and transformation and disruption, it's very important to ask what are the narratives and the stories we live by. And I see some of them are actually undermining our resilience. So when we talk about resilience, it's not only what can I learn, but possibly what do I need to unlearn to strengthen my resilience and to build resilience? How do I create more space? for being flexible, for being creative, for being present. The first thing in order to adapt to any situation, we have to be fully present. And I think that's always first. Unless we are present to what is happening around us, it will be very hard to adapt.
Speaker #1
But if it all starts with presence, does that imply that it begins at an individual level?
Speaker #0
It does. And it also happens, it can happen at the community and the organizational level, because or as societies, you know, recognizing being present to what is, what is the situation? What is the context? Context really matters. And sometimes we focus only on a part of what's happening or at the individual level. So I really want to encourage all of us to think And I think this is the time. It's not an either or. It's an end and. We're moving in these times of complexity. We have to see and work on these at different levels. So being present also means for an organization understanding what's changing, what is the context and how is it evolving? Yes. But obviously at the individual level as well.
Speaker #1
So just. To make sure that I've understood that correctly. So if we're saying that it could start at an organizational level, then it takes some enlightened leader to say, okay, we're going to do, I'm not sure what, X, Y, and Z in order to facilitate. presence within the individual and therefore within the collective?
Speaker #0
So what we need to do and the ability, and we often use this image of the bamboo. So when you think of a storm, stronger winds coming that the bamboo bends, but it does not break. It comes back into the upright position. And then when we're thinking of individuals or human beings, we often talk about growth as a process and the bending and not breaking and coming back and growing. So moving forward relies on a system of roots that's very strongly rooted in the earth. You know, we need to be rooted in something and that is our belief system. Those are our values. Those are the things we want to stand for. And so in many ways, it starts with knowing and working on this. foundation of well-being, of knowing our values, knowing what we want to stand for, what we want to bring into the world. It's very important to have that and to be aware of that. So awareness of what is it that grounds me is really important. And often when we are in crisis situations or challenges or in a situation where our you Entire normal is questioned or turned upside down. We tend to forget what roots us. So taking good care of our roots is extremely important. And that includes also community, our social network. Who is present with me? Who is holding my hand? Resilience is not something that is activated the moment the crisis hits. It's something that we continuously have to work on. It's a discipline. It's a routine. It's based on a self-care strategy that keeps us well. And then when a crisis or a challenge or adversity comes our way, we have the possibility to do more because we're grounded.
Speaker #1
I mean, it all makes perfect sense. And it sounds great and very inviting. Can you give me an example? Let's say you've got a team within an organization, how you can get that whole team to be resilient. I mean, when you're talking about the core values and the belief systems, then we're talking there in organizational terms, we're talking about the values and the beliefs of the organization, what they stand for, and that that kind of overarches and feeds down into the people who work in the organization. And if, let's say, there's an organization that hasn't perhaps. taken the step of thinking about this? How can we be resilient? And how can we have resilient teams? How might that work begin?
Speaker #0
Yes, great question. So it starts with realizing and identifying what do I stand for? Who do I want to be as an organization, as an individual, as a society? And being resilient, you know, you could then ask, How could someone from the outside recognize by observing what your values are or what you stand for? And that's already a big step. This is being so grounded in your values and what you stand for that we actually live it so that others can recognize it.
Speaker #1
Interesting.
Speaker #0
And by doing so, I think we're leading into the future that we want to see.
Speaker #1
Talking about the future that we want to see and we think about that in planetary terms, this resilience that it's clearly possible to build within individuals, within communities, within organizations, how can that then reflect out, in your opinion, into planetary terms?
Speaker #0
Resilience is always linked to aliveness. You know, there's always energy. Resilience has something, this ability to adapt, to be lively, see opportunities, to see potential and to adapt. I think knowing direction, knowing where we want to go, and then having the flexibility to work with the energy and not to get blocked or stuck. You know, sometimes we think when we are dealing with crisis or adversity that we need to become more hardened, that being strong means to become harder. You resist change. And this actually is not what resilience is about. Resilience is our ability to be flexible without losing ourselves. without losing our core.
Speaker #1
Well, I've heard you talk also about the natural world and its importance to you. And also, I think I heard you speaking about an understanding of the fact that we're not separate from the world around us, but really recognizing that we are the world around us. Do you see a way to work with the natural world in order to help people understand? how resilience works or help people essentially in the mission to protect the planet?
Speaker #0
I think it would very much help. It would change everything if we remembered that we are part of nature. Because when we remember that we are part of nature, we will also see that we are part of the natural rhythms of life. It means understanding that the idea of separateness. It's fiction. It's an illusion. There is such an interdependence of everything. When we remember that, we reestablish and restore our relationship by being part of the whole. I think sometimes we've been taught this narrative, and I think it is a real limiting belief that undermines our resilience, that we are separate, separate from each other as human beings and separate from nature. I truly believe that this is the time to realize nature needs to be in the lead and we need to follow. And this means to de-center ourselves. You know, we know very little, but when we remember that we're already part of it and we live aligned with nature's laws rather than against nature's laws, everything will become very easy. It's a very tiny step, actually. It's not. difficult.
Speaker #1
It seems like such a no-brainer the minute you begin to think about it. Yet, you know, we're talking about systems and about systemic change. I mean, so much of the way the world works is to take from the world around us and to feel that we can do that with absolute impunity. And talking about mind shifts, I think... That's a very big leap for a lot of people to understand that in constantly taking, be that in the form of the food that we eat, the clothes we wear, the way we heat our homes, whatever. If we're constantly taking from the planet, we're actually taking from ourselves. Do you have experience of getting this message across?
Speaker #0
As you mentioned, I grew up in Berlin and I grew up in West Berlin. At the time, you know, my city was half of the city surrounded by a wall and the landmines and the soldiers. And I could not imagine my city without the wall. It has always been there. And then I wake up one day and the wall is gone. I just see people, you know, thousands, tens of thousands of people, you know. energy, people coming over through all these border crossings, the celebration, this sense of deep interconnectedness and freedom and joy. And the interesting thing, the wall was still standing. It was still there. And yet it was gone because it had lost its power. There was no fear. I know, I've seen it, I've really been privileged to experience that when the time is ripe, walls crumble. And we're going through another time of deep and profound transformation. Systems are crumbling because they're not sustainable. They cannot carry us any further. And I'm really glad to see that things are shifting. And at the same time, it's a difficult time. It's a very disruptive time. of time. It's a very painful time. We see a lot of backlash. It's old systems trying to hold on to the old ways of doing things. And yet, I think this is also the challenge, and this is part of our resilience, to be able to hold this tension, to hold the emergence and the unraveling. It's the pain and it's the excitement of the new. We need more spaces for grief as well, for letting go. This is part of our resilience as well, creating spaces where we can really feel all the feelings, the overwhelm and the hope. They come together. Resilience always comes with adversity. They belong together. So I think in this time, I truly sense all around me, there's so many things shifting. People are excited. There's initiatives. The important thing is to stay present and to come from that energy, the energy that sees beyond the world.
Speaker #1
Well, there's a lot to think about there. One thing that comes out for me is this idea of togetherness, of doing things together, moving as pockets of critical mass, which could be defined as community. And I think community is something that's... quite important to you. Can you give me some insight into how community can play a role in pushing forward positive transformation?
Speaker #0
Communities and social relationships are one of our most important indicators of resilience. And when things fall apart, and I think we've all seen that during the COVID pandemic. Our networks, our social relationships, our communities were so important. And the absence, you know, the experience of social distancing also taught us how critical it is for us as human beings to have community. So investing in communities, finding and creating spaces where we can be together and making. time in our busy schedules to connect and have deep conversations or just be present and be playful this is also part of it you know the joy bringing in the energy again i think it is important to really nourish our souls minds and bodies in the company of people um that that are become, you know, fellow travelers on this journey. During the COVID period, I reconnected with three friends and colleagues, and we had scheduled every week on Friday afternoon for one hour, a check-in call. And they were on different continents, but we would always get together online and check in and just listen, be present for each other. And listen. And I think this deep listening, empathic presence, especially in these times, is very, very important for all of us. We need to nourish ourselves.
Speaker #1
Yes, and I would like to talk about that nourishment. But can we just hang on to deep listening for a moment? Because it's perhaps not a term that everybody would be familiar with. Maybe you can just give an example. What do you mean by deep? listening.
Speaker #0
I think everyone, and I want to invite all listeners as well, to think of the last time you felt truly heard. When we speak about listening, what happens often is that someone tells a story and in our minds, we already connect by going back to a certain story that is similar and we're thinking of, okay, what kind of it? advice could I give? Or sometimes we don't even think about it. It just comes out of our mouth. So the practice of deep listening is the presence that matters. It's the being. In a world that is so focused on rushing and running, having, it's moving away from the doing.
Speaker #1
And it's an easy one to practice, isn't it? I mean, you can practice deep listening with
Speaker #0
anybody by simply turning to full volume your your listening function absolutely just being present i mean i'm saying just it's it's a practice it's something that we grow into because we're so used to jumping in and speaking easily and and trying to offer support or help but the real art of active listening is to stay present i think it's in a
Speaker #1
a time where we have the world in our pockets in the form of a mobile phone. Even, I mean, I noticed this myself and I might be cooking or listening to the radio or looking at my phone and one of the children comes and they want to tell me something and I'm listening with half of one ear. And sort of trying to do another three things at the same time. But yeah, so I am going to try and do that differently this evening.
Speaker #0
I know the feeling. I know it's very challenging because we're so pulled in all directions. And we have all these devices that take our attention, that are actually designed to take away our attention. And yet our resilience starts with being present. It's the only way I think we can feel the energy and then take the next step. We have to be present.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Okay. Well, then I am present here and I'm going to ask you as someone who's present here with you, just to kind of go back a little bit into your biography. You've worked in different fields and you've also lived in a lot of different parts of the world. I wonder if sort of on your professional and geographical travels, whether you have been able to pick up different ways of doing things that have helped you to become resilient yourself and also to bring into the work that you're doing at the moment.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. It's been such a privilege to live in many different countries and also to have a family. My family is international. My husband's from the Netherlands. My children were born in different countries, having different languages in my family, and also seeing that things can be done differently. And when you think of resilience, obviously there's a lot of things that I learned also in different countries. In some countries, people are very open and very close to their neighbors, which is something that I did not learn when I grew up in Berlin. In the Netherlands, there's even a saying that something like it's better to have a good neighbor than a faraway friend. You know, the keys of your homes, you usually leave with neighbors. It was really a surprise to me. I had not learned or experienced that in Berlin. So I think it's always also to learn, you know, things can be done differently and to pick out the things that work and that you feel. aligned with. And it's always this openness, you know, being curious about how are things done in different countries and what can I learn? And the excitement also, there's a diversity of ways we can do things. It's not always one way. And sometimes we, we have been taught to think inside the boxes, to move and to learn. to be in conformity. And living in different places has given me this opportunity to see that it can be done differently. It's not necessarily that the one is better than the other.
Speaker #1
So it's also deep looking that you've been doing, not just deep listening. Yes. Well, perhaps a nice little follow on from that would be the topic of hope, which It seems like it has become this beautiful little word, something that divides opinions with some saying, yes, this is the thing that can encourage people to do something, to make positive contribution and others who are more of the mindset that it's passive state. What is your view on hope and sort of the hope narrative perhaps and the role that it has to play in maintaining or creating and maintaining resilience?
Speaker #0
Hope is really important to me. And I very much enjoyed Joanna Macy's work on active hope. It is something that I want to cultivate, that gives direction, that is very much linked to my belief and my faith in the positive energy and our ability to live into a different reality. is much greater than systems and structures that have outlived their time and that make us feel as if we are stuck. And again, that's a narrative. It's a narrative. We have to use our imagination. As I said, you know, I could not imagine my city without the war. And yet it happened because apparently someone could see beyond the status quo. I truly believe that It is this, the power of imagination. And the energy that comes with dreaming big and living as if we are already there. If we were all to do that, to remember that we are part of nature, to remember that we belong to each other, to remember that we can lead a different life. And if we lived already like this. if it was a more loving, a gentler, a more connected world, a more peaceful world. If we had peace in ourselves and we lived that, we would wake up in another world tomorrow.
Speaker #1
You think that it would just have an infectious effect?
Speaker #0
Absolutely. When we fight, it's as if we're pushing things away. We're spending... a lot of energy on what we don't want. We want something else. So let's focus on what we want, because the old ways are not working.
Speaker #1
Okay, well, I would like to ask you one final question. And this question is also something that I ask everybody. And it is if there were one skill, just a single skill that you wish everybody had, what would it be?
Speaker #0
I think to see beauty and to feel the love that's everywhere and in us all the time.
Speaker #1
That really would be transformative. Thank you for sharing that thought.
Speaker #0
You're very welcome. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.
Speaker #1
Thank you. Yes, thank you very much for coming on. I've really enjoyed hearing all your thoughts. There's a lot for me and I hope for other people too. really take away with them and to think about, to listen to deeply.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much. I very much enjoyed it.
Speaker #1
I hope you enjoyed hearing Daria's thoughts on and experience of resilience. She's left me with plenty to think about. And I will be aiming for deeper listening in my conversations from now on. Maybe you'll give it a go too. I'll be back next month with a new episode of the Inner Green Deal podcast. For now though... I invite you to share, subscribe, or scroll through the archives, which contain many interesting conversations with people working on sustainability and inner development. Thanks for joining me. Until the next time, bye-bye.

Description

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  

Daria Nashat: https://darianashat.com/

About the Inner Green Deal 

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
So to me, resilience is really our ability to dance with the storms of life. And that could be at all levels. It's something we individually can do. But also given what's happening in the world and what's happening in our communities, it's very much our ability to dance with the storms that affect us collectively.
Speaker #1
Hello. welcome to the Inner Green Deal podcast, where we talk to inspiring guests about the human dimension of sustainability and explore the link between our personal journeys and the positive impacts we can have on the world. My name is Tamsin Walker. In this month's episode, we're going to be talking about resilience and how it serves as a bedrock for individual and collective growth, and how human resilience can be both informed by and reflected in the natural order of things. To explore this expansive issue with me, I'd like to welcome Daria Nashat. With a background in post-conflict development and peace and community building, she spent many years working with leaders on the importance of cultivating resilience. Hello, Daria, and welcome to the Inner Green Deal podcast.
Speaker #0
Thank you. Such a pleasure.
Speaker #1
Well, it's good to have you. I'd like to kick off by asking a question that I ask everybody, which is about place and whether there is a place that was particularly important to you when you were growing up. It could be a place in nature. And the fact that you grew up in Berlin, because I also live in Berlin, I'm very interested to know if there is somewhere that you connected with nature in your younger years while you were living here.
Speaker #0
Yes, yes. I do. I mean, growing up in West Berlin at the time, you know, that place still continues to be and feel like home. And even though there was a wall around my part of the city, there were all these lakes, there was the forest, there were parks. Berlin is a very green city. And I do remember I lived very close to lakes, so we would go there often and just... feeling being with the trees, a lot of old trees also lining my street. I still, when I go, I still recognize a lot of the trees. So I have this memory of trees, big trees, you know, giving, providing shade in the hot summers. And also the lakes, we could just, you know, little beaches, we could jump in when it got hot. The sky above Berlin is something that I miss often. uh wide open spaces interestingly given the situation uh at the time and a herd of birds in my neighborhood i was i guess i was lucky i was um living closer to the outskirts and um there
Speaker #1
were always birds birdsong that's what i recall nice well we will be coming back to nature but we're also going to be talking about... resilience over the course of our conversation. And I'm interested in this word resilience, because it's kind of one of those words that seems to have become really big. And it's thrown around a lot. I think it probably means different things to different people. It's potentially one of these words that because it's used so much that it's at risk of losing its meaning. And I wonder if you could begin by just defining what the word resilience means to you. this moment in time, at this place that we're at in the world.
Speaker #0
Yes, I'm happy to. I agree with your observation. So to me, resilience is really our ability to dance with the storms of life. And that could be at all levels. It's something we individually can do, also given what's happening in the world and what's happening in our communities. It's very much our ability to dance with the storms that affect us collectively. And I sense that sometimes we forget that this really is an ability. It's a flexibility. So resilience really is our ability to adapt, to creatively adapt, to find ways to move with, not against, what is happening. And that's a whole field of study and research. And indeed, it's become very fashionable to talk about resilience. And I'm very fortunate to be working in this field because it's a key quality, something that, you know, is part of human life and even in nature, you know, resilience. But usually we're talking about it in the context of human beings and systems and structures and organizations.
Speaker #1
Right. So you mentioned the systems, structures, organizations. I definitely want to go into that because we live in a time of multiple crises, right? And, you know, arguably that with the longest arm is the climate crisis. I know from personal experience and my journalistic work, I'm immersed in climate stories and reports and a lot of bad news. And honestly, it can drag you down. So I'm thinking it must be similar, similar. It must be a similar story for others working closely on climate topics, be they scientists, activists or people working on NGO projects or whatever. And I mean, resilience seems so essential to be able to keep doing the work that makes valid contributions to shaping a more livable future. But so where does it begin? Right. I mean, that's what interests me. Does it start with with individuals? or with teams or with whole organizations. Can you give me some insight into that?
Speaker #0
So resilience needs to happen at all levels. It's not something that we can do only at the individual level. It's a concept that works at the individual and at the collective level. And we have to think how we design environments that actually allow us to be the most resilient. If we go back to some of the building blocks or the pillars of resilience, there are four things we need to keep in mind. So the first is resilience builds on our personal characteristics as an individual. It builds on our belief systems and our values. It builds on the knowledge and the tools we have. And it also is really very much... grounded in our social support system. And so some of these aspects are at the individual level. But as soon as we talk about belief systems and values, there's very little distinction between individuals and our collective narratives, the cultural narratives that we live by. And I do see that when we talk about resilience, especially given and such a time of transition and transformation and disruption, it's very important to ask what are the narratives and the stories we live by. And I see some of them are actually undermining our resilience. So when we talk about resilience, it's not only what can I learn, but possibly what do I need to unlearn to strengthen my resilience and to build resilience? How do I create more space? for being flexible, for being creative, for being present. The first thing in order to adapt to any situation, we have to be fully present. And I think that's always first. Unless we are present to what is happening around us, it will be very hard to adapt.
Speaker #1
But if it all starts with presence, does that imply that it begins at an individual level?
Speaker #0
It does. And it also happens, it can happen at the community and the organizational level, because or as societies, you know, recognizing being present to what is, what is the situation? What is the context? Context really matters. And sometimes we focus only on a part of what's happening or at the individual level. So I really want to encourage all of us to think And I think this is the time. It's not an either or. It's an end and. We're moving in these times of complexity. We have to see and work on these at different levels. So being present also means for an organization understanding what's changing, what is the context and how is it evolving? Yes. But obviously at the individual level as well.
Speaker #1
So just. To make sure that I've understood that correctly. So if we're saying that it could start at an organizational level, then it takes some enlightened leader to say, okay, we're going to do, I'm not sure what, X, Y, and Z in order to facilitate. presence within the individual and therefore within the collective?
Speaker #0
So what we need to do and the ability, and we often use this image of the bamboo. So when you think of a storm, stronger winds coming that the bamboo bends, but it does not break. It comes back into the upright position. And then when we're thinking of individuals or human beings, we often talk about growth as a process and the bending and not breaking and coming back and growing. So moving forward relies on a system of roots that's very strongly rooted in the earth. You know, we need to be rooted in something and that is our belief system. Those are our values. Those are the things we want to stand for. And so in many ways, it starts with knowing and working on this. foundation of well-being, of knowing our values, knowing what we want to stand for, what we want to bring into the world. It's very important to have that and to be aware of that. So awareness of what is it that grounds me is really important. And often when we are in crisis situations or challenges or in a situation where our you Entire normal is questioned or turned upside down. We tend to forget what roots us. So taking good care of our roots is extremely important. And that includes also community, our social network. Who is present with me? Who is holding my hand? Resilience is not something that is activated the moment the crisis hits. It's something that we continuously have to work on. It's a discipline. It's a routine. It's based on a self-care strategy that keeps us well. And then when a crisis or a challenge or adversity comes our way, we have the possibility to do more because we're grounded.
Speaker #1
I mean, it all makes perfect sense. And it sounds great and very inviting. Can you give me an example? Let's say you've got a team within an organization, how you can get that whole team to be resilient. I mean, when you're talking about the core values and the belief systems, then we're talking there in organizational terms, we're talking about the values and the beliefs of the organization, what they stand for, and that that kind of overarches and feeds down into the people who work in the organization. And if, let's say, there's an organization that hasn't perhaps. taken the step of thinking about this? How can we be resilient? And how can we have resilient teams? How might that work begin?
Speaker #0
Yes, great question. So it starts with realizing and identifying what do I stand for? Who do I want to be as an organization, as an individual, as a society? And being resilient, you know, you could then ask, How could someone from the outside recognize by observing what your values are or what you stand for? And that's already a big step. This is being so grounded in your values and what you stand for that we actually live it so that others can recognize it.
Speaker #1
Interesting.
Speaker #0
And by doing so, I think we're leading into the future that we want to see.
Speaker #1
Talking about the future that we want to see and we think about that in planetary terms, this resilience that it's clearly possible to build within individuals, within communities, within organizations, how can that then reflect out, in your opinion, into planetary terms?
Speaker #0
Resilience is always linked to aliveness. You know, there's always energy. Resilience has something, this ability to adapt, to be lively, see opportunities, to see potential and to adapt. I think knowing direction, knowing where we want to go, and then having the flexibility to work with the energy and not to get blocked or stuck. You know, sometimes we think when we are dealing with crisis or adversity that we need to become more hardened, that being strong means to become harder. You resist change. And this actually is not what resilience is about. Resilience is our ability to be flexible without losing ourselves. without losing our core.
Speaker #1
Well, I've heard you talk also about the natural world and its importance to you. And also, I think I heard you speaking about an understanding of the fact that we're not separate from the world around us, but really recognizing that we are the world around us. Do you see a way to work with the natural world in order to help people understand? how resilience works or help people essentially in the mission to protect the planet?
Speaker #0
I think it would very much help. It would change everything if we remembered that we are part of nature. Because when we remember that we are part of nature, we will also see that we are part of the natural rhythms of life. It means understanding that the idea of separateness. It's fiction. It's an illusion. There is such an interdependence of everything. When we remember that, we reestablish and restore our relationship by being part of the whole. I think sometimes we've been taught this narrative, and I think it is a real limiting belief that undermines our resilience, that we are separate, separate from each other as human beings and separate from nature. I truly believe that this is the time to realize nature needs to be in the lead and we need to follow. And this means to de-center ourselves. You know, we know very little, but when we remember that we're already part of it and we live aligned with nature's laws rather than against nature's laws, everything will become very easy. It's a very tiny step, actually. It's not. difficult.
Speaker #1
It seems like such a no-brainer the minute you begin to think about it. Yet, you know, we're talking about systems and about systemic change. I mean, so much of the way the world works is to take from the world around us and to feel that we can do that with absolute impunity. And talking about mind shifts, I think... That's a very big leap for a lot of people to understand that in constantly taking, be that in the form of the food that we eat, the clothes we wear, the way we heat our homes, whatever. If we're constantly taking from the planet, we're actually taking from ourselves. Do you have experience of getting this message across?
Speaker #0
As you mentioned, I grew up in Berlin and I grew up in West Berlin. At the time, you know, my city was half of the city surrounded by a wall and the landmines and the soldiers. And I could not imagine my city without the wall. It has always been there. And then I wake up one day and the wall is gone. I just see people, you know, thousands, tens of thousands of people, you know. energy, people coming over through all these border crossings, the celebration, this sense of deep interconnectedness and freedom and joy. And the interesting thing, the wall was still standing. It was still there. And yet it was gone because it had lost its power. There was no fear. I know, I've seen it, I've really been privileged to experience that when the time is ripe, walls crumble. And we're going through another time of deep and profound transformation. Systems are crumbling because they're not sustainable. They cannot carry us any further. And I'm really glad to see that things are shifting. And at the same time, it's a difficult time. It's a very disruptive time. of time. It's a very painful time. We see a lot of backlash. It's old systems trying to hold on to the old ways of doing things. And yet, I think this is also the challenge, and this is part of our resilience, to be able to hold this tension, to hold the emergence and the unraveling. It's the pain and it's the excitement of the new. We need more spaces for grief as well, for letting go. This is part of our resilience as well, creating spaces where we can really feel all the feelings, the overwhelm and the hope. They come together. Resilience always comes with adversity. They belong together. So I think in this time, I truly sense all around me, there's so many things shifting. People are excited. There's initiatives. The important thing is to stay present and to come from that energy, the energy that sees beyond the world.
Speaker #1
Well, there's a lot to think about there. One thing that comes out for me is this idea of togetherness, of doing things together, moving as pockets of critical mass, which could be defined as community. And I think community is something that's... quite important to you. Can you give me some insight into how community can play a role in pushing forward positive transformation?
Speaker #0
Communities and social relationships are one of our most important indicators of resilience. And when things fall apart, and I think we've all seen that during the COVID pandemic. Our networks, our social relationships, our communities were so important. And the absence, you know, the experience of social distancing also taught us how critical it is for us as human beings to have community. So investing in communities, finding and creating spaces where we can be together and making. time in our busy schedules to connect and have deep conversations or just be present and be playful this is also part of it you know the joy bringing in the energy again i think it is important to really nourish our souls minds and bodies in the company of people um that that are become, you know, fellow travelers on this journey. During the COVID period, I reconnected with three friends and colleagues, and we had scheduled every week on Friday afternoon for one hour, a check-in call. And they were on different continents, but we would always get together online and check in and just listen, be present for each other. And listen. And I think this deep listening, empathic presence, especially in these times, is very, very important for all of us. We need to nourish ourselves.
Speaker #1
Yes, and I would like to talk about that nourishment. But can we just hang on to deep listening for a moment? Because it's perhaps not a term that everybody would be familiar with. Maybe you can just give an example. What do you mean by deep? listening.
Speaker #0
I think everyone, and I want to invite all listeners as well, to think of the last time you felt truly heard. When we speak about listening, what happens often is that someone tells a story and in our minds, we already connect by going back to a certain story that is similar and we're thinking of, okay, what kind of it? advice could I give? Or sometimes we don't even think about it. It just comes out of our mouth. So the practice of deep listening is the presence that matters. It's the being. In a world that is so focused on rushing and running, having, it's moving away from the doing.
Speaker #1
And it's an easy one to practice, isn't it? I mean, you can practice deep listening with
Speaker #0
anybody by simply turning to full volume your your listening function absolutely just being present i mean i'm saying just it's it's a practice it's something that we grow into because we're so used to jumping in and speaking easily and and trying to offer support or help but the real art of active listening is to stay present i think it's in a
Speaker #1
a time where we have the world in our pockets in the form of a mobile phone. Even, I mean, I noticed this myself and I might be cooking or listening to the radio or looking at my phone and one of the children comes and they want to tell me something and I'm listening with half of one ear. And sort of trying to do another three things at the same time. But yeah, so I am going to try and do that differently this evening.
Speaker #0
I know the feeling. I know it's very challenging because we're so pulled in all directions. And we have all these devices that take our attention, that are actually designed to take away our attention. And yet our resilience starts with being present. It's the only way I think we can feel the energy and then take the next step. We have to be present.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Okay. Well, then I am present here and I'm going to ask you as someone who's present here with you, just to kind of go back a little bit into your biography. You've worked in different fields and you've also lived in a lot of different parts of the world. I wonder if sort of on your professional and geographical travels, whether you have been able to pick up different ways of doing things that have helped you to become resilient yourself and also to bring into the work that you're doing at the moment.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. It's been such a privilege to live in many different countries and also to have a family. My family is international. My husband's from the Netherlands. My children were born in different countries, having different languages in my family, and also seeing that things can be done differently. And when you think of resilience, obviously there's a lot of things that I learned also in different countries. In some countries, people are very open and very close to their neighbors, which is something that I did not learn when I grew up in Berlin. In the Netherlands, there's even a saying that something like it's better to have a good neighbor than a faraway friend. You know, the keys of your homes, you usually leave with neighbors. It was really a surprise to me. I had not learned or experienced that in Berlin. So I think it's always also to learn, you know, things can be done differently and to pick out the things that work and that you feel. aligned with. And it's always this openness, you know, being curious about how are things done in different countries and what can I learn? And the excitement also, there's a diversity of ways we can do things. It's not always one way. And sometimes we, we have been taught to think inside the boxes, to move and to learn. to be in conformity. And living in different places has given me this opportunity to see that it can be done differently. It's not necessarily that the one is better than the other.
Speaker #1
So it's also deep looking that you've been doing, not just deep listening. Yes. Well, perhaps a nice little follow on from that would be the topic of hope, which It seems like it has become this beautiful little word, something that divides opinions with some saying, yes, this is the thing that can encourage people to do something, to make positive contribution and others who are more of the mindset that it's passive state. What is your view on hope and sort of the hope narrative perhaps and the role that it has to play in maintaining or creating and maintaining resilience?
Speaker #0
Hope is really important to me. And I very much enjoyed Joanna Macy's work on active hope. It is something that I want to cultivate, that gives direction, that is very much linked to my belief and my faith in the positive energy and our ability to live into a different reality. is much greater than systems and structures that have outlived their time and that make us feel as if we are stuck. And again, that's a narrative. It's a narrative. We have to use our imagination. As I said, you know, I could not imagine my city without the war. And yet it happened because apparently someone could see beyond the status quo. I truly believe that It is this, the power of imagination. And the energy that comes with dreaming big and living as if we are already there. If we were all to do that, to remember that we are part of nature, to remember that we belong to each other, to remember that we can lead a different life. And if we lived already like this. if it was a more loving, a gentler, a more connected world, a more peaceful world. If we had peace in ourselves and we lived that, we would wake up in another world tomorrow.
Speaker #1
You think that it would just have an infectious effect?
Speaker #0
Absolutely. When we fight, it's as if we're pushing things away. We're spending... a lot of energy on what we don't want. We want something else. So let's focus on what we want, because the old ways are not working.
Speaker #1
Okay, well, I would like to ask you one final question. And this question is also something that I ask everybody. And it is if there were one skill, just a single skill that you wish everybody had, what would it be?
Speaker #0
I think to see beauty and to feel the love that's everywhere and in us all the time.
Speaker #1
That really would be transformative. Thank you for sharing that thought.
Speaker #0
You're very welcome. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.
Speaker #1
Thank you. Yes, thank you very much for coming on. I've really enjoyed hearing all your thoughts. There's a lot for me and I hope for other people too. really take away with them and to think about, to listen to deeply.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much. I very much enjoyed it.
Speaker #1
I hope you enjoyed hearing Daria's thoughts on and experience of resilience. She's left me with plenty to think about. And I will be aiming for deeper listening in my conversations from now on. Maybe you'll give it a go too. I'll be back next month with a new episode of the Inner Green Deal podcast. For now though... I invite you to share, subscribe, or scroll through the archives, which contain many interesting conversations with people working on sustainability and inner development. Thanks for joining me. Until the next time, bye-bye.

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