The Transforming Act of Giving l with Nipun Mehta, Founder of ServiceSpace | S4E8 | Inner Green Deal - the human dimension of sustainability.

Description

We are welcoming Nipun Mehta, founder of ServiceSpace, a global movement that touches millions of people through the merging of volunteerism, technology and the gift-economy.

Tamsin spoke to Nipun about the potential and far-reaching impacts of an unexpected act of kindness. Not only for the recipient, but for oneself, society and the world at large.

Nipun set up ServiceSpace after quitting his first and only job as a software engineer to become a full-time volunteer. Fast forward more than two decades and ServiceSpace has evolved to become a global ecosystem of over 1.5 million members, delivering millions of dollars in service for free. He has also been honoured by the Dalai Lama as an "Unsung Hero of Compassion".

Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to info@innergreendeal.com . 

In the four years since it has been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded and we are committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials-free. To live up to this ambition, we are inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, makes a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what is going inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you would like to donate, click here for more details.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
I think there's a kind of a leap that you need to take from your known to a bit of the unknown when you're like, oh, that person doesn't maybe look like me or doesn't think like me or doesn't have even scarier perhaps is that doesn't have the same worldview. And you say, okay, well, am I better off in my bubble not engaging or am I better off to broaden my frame? and meet the other person in that frame? And if I do, what might we create together that we could never do alone?
Speaker #1
Welcome to the Inner Green Deal podcast, where we talk to inspiring guests about the human dimension of sustainability and explore the link between our personal journeys and the positive impacts we can have on the world. My name is Tamsin Walker. In this month's episode, we're talking about gratitude, generosity, and giftivism. To explore these three Gs and the role they can play in helping to change mindsets, I'm joined by Nipun Mehta. Nipun is the founder of Service Space, a global movement that touches millions of people through the merging of volunteerism, technology, and the gift economy. He set it up after quitting his first and only job as a software engineer to become a full-time volunteer. He's never looked back. Fast forward more than two decades and service space has evolved to become a global ecosystem of over 1.5 million members delivering free services worth millions of dollars. He's also been honored by the Dalai Lama as an unsung hero of compassion. Welcome, Nipun. It's a pleasure to have you on the Inner Green Deal podcast.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
So the first question is a question that. everybody who comes onto the podcast gets asked. And it's this, is there a place in nature that was particularly important to you while you were growing up?
Speaker #0
You know, while I was growing up, I wasn't surrounded by as much nature. I grew up in the cities. But one thing I really remember is the sound of the waves in the ocean. And that must have been a very strong influence because when I was in college, I remember specifically going out like in the middle of the night to the ocean just to sit and listen to the waves. My wife has particularly tuned me into a lot of nuances, but I remember when we bought the place where we live now, the thing that... got us both is there was this amazing giant tree out in the distance and it just felt like a grandfather and it just captured me and my wife came and saw and he's like oh you're not looking at the house like just staring at that tree and and i i don't typically do that and it just had me wow it it is big and feels like it's been around for thousands of years but something about its larger context. drew me in and then drew my wife in too. So that's my response.
Speaker #1
I like both of the references you made there. I would just add to that the ocean. I spent a few days in a house that used to be a Coast Guard's cottage and it was perches right on the edge of a cliff. And the sound is so present. And I came back to Germany last night. I was in Berlin last night and I was listening in my half sleep and I could hear the traffic going by, but in my mind, it was the ocean. The roar of the traffic somehow became the ocean.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I think it stays with us somehow.
Speaker #0
It does. I mean, there's now a lot of research on how all of this is very meaningful or very resonant for our internal biological systems as well. I mean, I'm constantly in awe of nature. So awe is another thing for me. Not just non-human things, but even humans. Like, I'm just in awe of how we are so... predisposed to kindness and compassion and care and connection.
Speaker #1
Well, you mentioned the generosity and kindness and compassion, and that would take us on to service space. Can you give a nutshell overview of exactly what service space is and what it does?
Speaker #0
Sure. I mean, I think I tend to see service space as a conversation, a live conversation between the ancient and the emergent. And the ancient is all these core values that make us come alive, that make our biologies come alive, that make our minds come alive, that make our spirits come alive. And these are things like compassion, kindness, this deep equanimity that we're all capable of. And on the other side is emergent, like what's actually happening in the world and how are these values relevant to the sort of immediate problems and the challenges that we might face. So I think Service Bay started in 1999 by building websites for nonprofits. That's sort of what we did as a manifest work. But underneath it, the challenge it was trying to solve is that especially in the Silicon Valley where we started, there was just a lot of greed and there was just a lot of unrelenting ambition that left people hungry and that left people starved. And so we looked at that and we said, well, you know what might be a great antidote? is to give and to give with no strings attached, to give without even thinking of an outcome. And that's sort of how we started and we've kept it up. So all along we would say, okay, well, we're now making websites for nonprofits not relevant, but we have all these volunteers. What should we do? And then we said, well, we should try to solve some problems in the world that are meaningful to solve and says, well, A lot of people are doing that. What can we uniquely do? What is our unique offering? And what we realized is that we wanted to solve problems that money couldn't solve. And because we were not operating with financial resources, it allowed us this latitude to hold this incredible question, right? Like, what are problems that money cannot solve? That by itself is like a fascinating fireside conversation that we could have, right, with anybody. I mean, baseline default is, you know, we just need money and then we'll be able to solve everything. And it turns out that's just not true. So we've been doing lots of experiments. We no longer do websites, but then we started to do these web portals. We started to run different restaurants that were operating on a gift economy basis. We started to do these circles in living rooms all over the world. We started to host these retreats. So it's just a giant canopy to play in. But underneath it, it's really this conversation around how do we make the ancient values relevant in our modern times?
Speaker #1
Wow. So, I mean, you mentioned a few of the directions in which service spaces evolved over the past 25 years. And from what I have read, yeah, it seems you've got. feet in a lot of different places and so many interesting projects newsletters videos meditation circles your dinners so so many different things but so the overarching intention is the same behind all of them yeah
Speaker #0
it really is that it is first to serve serve yeah right not just to create external impact i mean most non-profits exist to change the world our thought was our tagline also is change yourself, change the world. That if you focus on changing yourself through the very act of service, then you will invariably lead to changing the world, but you will also be different along the way. So you won't be a problem for the world to solve later, right? Because so many times we're like, oh yeah, you know, like, oh, I need a little bit of anger to solve this problem because, you know, that person's just never going to listen. And then you realize you become an angry person. And for that other person or another set of people, you're a problem to solve. And so you're like, okay, that's just not a good cycle to be in. Can we do better? Can we have a design upgrade to factor in who we become alongside what we do?
Speaker #1
Oh, I like this idea of a design upgrade. It seems, listening to you, that service-based encourages... selflessness, would you say?
Speaker #0
I would say it encourages a step from a me orientation to a we orientation, and then from a we orientation to an us orientation.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Because even if you say we, the bald people of America, you know, are now united, and we all get along, then you still have the non-bald people that you are not gonna... uh include and so the we also tends to have uh you know challenges and problems and limits um and so how do we start to go not how do we step from the me to the we to the us And as you step into the us, the me becomes a very loose entity, a very sort of thin layer that needs to be honored because it's a fantastic instrument. But you're playing a much more infinite game. If you're just engaged in the circles of me, it becomes a very, you start to optimize and gravitate towards very finite games. And finite games are games where there's a winner and a loser, right? You succeed or you fail. An infinite game is played not for the purpose of winning, it's played for the purpose of continuing the play. And that's a very significant difference. I would say it's a step in this direction and acts of service are a fantastic way to cultivate that. And so you serve the world on the outside and you're mindful of what the world needs. But you're also mindful of the places in you in which there are gaps or this incredible identification with the me and to sort of release that and step into greener pastures.
Speaker #1
I mean, so we're kind of heading into the transformational waters here. But before we get directly there, I just know it struck me very recently in the UK. there were these riots. And then in the aftermath of the riots, the reports were very often of a coming together of community, of these acts of service, acts of generosity, people who didn't know each other, don't know each other. And I'm really curious about this, how easy it is for people to tap into that service part of themselves. Because, you know, we do also, and there I think I would use the collective we that there is a kind of a bubble-esque element to modern life. And it isn't always easy to step outside of that. But how have you experienced that? Obviously, you have a lot of contact with a lot of people who are serving.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I mean, I think it's incredible. I think there's a kind of a leap that you need to take from your known to a bit of the unknown. When you're like, oh, that person doesn't maybe look like me or doesn't think like me or doesn't have even scarier perhaps is that doesn't have the same worldview as me. And you say, okay, well, am I better off in my bubble not engaging? Or am I better off to broaden my frame and meet the other person in that frame? And if I do... What might we create together that we could never do alone? And that's kind of a design question, right? Like, are you going to be curious or are you going to privilege safety over curiosity? There is a kind of safety to just being in your own domain of the known, but there is something to be said about curiosity. And so I would venture and say that if you are fearful around it, then Maybe don't take like 13 steps in that direction, but take that one baby step, right? Like, okay, am I afraid of that bee, right? Am I afraid of that bee or can I step into it with curiosity? And if you do, you might realize, oh my God, if the bee stings me, then actually it dies. And so you're like, it's not in its interest to sting me. And then you say, well, why am I so annoyed by the sound of the bee? And you're like, Okay, well, that's something you can work on. And so you're like, okay, let's see if I can calm that part of my reaction down. And then you engage. And when you engage, you can start to coexist in a very different way. And then you start to see that, wow, actually, they pollinate. And wow, like, it takes a whole lifetime for the bee to produce the kind of honey that I just take for granted in one swipe, you know. So I think looking at... the world, looking at your own fears through a lens of curiosity can be helpful within our limits. And there are times where you have to, you know, honor safety as well. But I think there are times when you have to question that, right? So choosing curiosity over safety is a pretty good algorithm many, many times in life. And there's a wonderful quote, it says, you know, there's the kind of fear that keeps you alive. And then there's the kind of fear that keeps you from living. And I think that's the difference is that you can say, oh my God, like if I go too much on the curiosity side, that sure, you might get burned here and there, but actually you may be able to co-create something absolutely magnificent beyond your wildest imaginations. And frankly, I have seen that. I have leaned into curiosity. I've leaned into the we. I've leaned into difference. I've leaned into so many different ways, especially when you work with volunteers. And when you do, you realize that, oh, my God, you know, everyone at the end of the day comes alive with love. Biologically, this is true. We do an act of kindness and it does that. Everyone comes alive as they feel. safe and connected with you. So to me, it's, you know, it's always been within reason, of course, with all your precautions that everyone has to take. But I think curiosity has always been a strong, a stronger guiding principle. And I, that's what I would encourage people to, to step into that, go just a little bit beyond your comfort zone. Curious is one thing, But I think as you go. deeper into that, you are humbled. And as you go deeper into that humility, you actually land at this incredible reverence, I would say, for the possibility of this co-creation that we call life.
Speaker #1
When I'm just listening to you there, particularly love the bumblebee, but also I love the humility and what you just described there. But it. does it also when you hit that kind of place of reverence is there also a sense of liberation attached to that oh i would say major sense of liberation because you were confined this whole time because you thought this was all your world was and
Speaker #0
you just worked so hard to preserve and protect the status quo when really your job was to just surrender and ride the waves of the ocean you know which is so of. fabulous, which is so amazing. Like who wants to take a bucket from the ocean and your whole life, you're like preserving and protecting the bucket when it actually doesn't even make sense because you can't preserve it beyond a certain point. It's going to evaporate. No matter how much you love yourself, we all have to pass on. But there's a kind of leap to, you know, to go from control to a kind of surrender. And I always tend to think of it as the shift from The known to the unknown to the unknowable. The known gives you the certainty. The unknown gives you a kind of humility in some sense. But the unknown is still relatively simple. But then beyond that, there is the unknowable. And the unknowable is scary because then the ego is no longer in the driver's seat. So now you're functioning by the laws of the ocean. And that is not something that's ever going to be entirely under your control. And if you lead with the unknowable, it changes how we co-create. It changes how we hold ourselves. It changes who we become. But that's a scary thought for the ego, for the known. So I would say... Instead of venturing, instead of doubling down on the known, I would say venture out and explore the, not just the unknown, because that's just novelty at some level. I mean, it's an inspiring middle step, but really the unknowable, where the ego is no longer in the driver's seat. And then you're like, well, but then what will feel? Well, experiment and find out. Take a leap.
Speaker #1
Okay, that feels like you've just thrown down the gauntlet. I talking of quotes also and of control you mentioned control that I just want to quote something that I read that you said if we can't control our attention all our technologies frameworks metrics and institutions can't create much change if however we are able to nestle our innovations in the field of our own inner transformation then its potential is boundless what do you think the world would look like or could look like if we were able to control our attention?
Speaker #0
Well, attention, I think, is a way to get to inner transformation. But yes, I think if we can't be still, our options are very limited. I had a conversation with my niece on her graduation day from middle school, eighth grade. And I said, you know, Millie, there are certain parts of life that only come alive beyond a certain delta of attention. So if you can only pay attention for eight seconds, which is the average human attention span these days, social media has kind of brought it down. And so I was saying, if you and I are only speaking in eight second sound bites, our conversation can only go that deep. But if you're able to hold space for a little longer, and I'm able to hold space for a little longer, it changes the possibility of how we relate and what comes out of our relationship. Just starting at that. baseline, I think, is critical. And as you do that, as one deepens in this realm, what happens is that you start relating with all life in a very different way. You move from me-to-me connections to we-to-we connections. That it's not just Tamsin and Nipun having a conversation, it's that tree that's here, in fact. is a part of this conversation and the village you're in. And you can go farther and farther and farther back to many generations and all of those causes and conditions and all of my causes and conditions are coming together in this moment in a certain way. And when you do that, when you allow yourself that gift of holding the other, not just as a projection of your me, but as a stepping into a deeper we, then the we to we connections really start to blossom an entirely new possibility.
Speaker #1
Just to go back to nature, which is, of course, very important to the inner green deal. I think that it also has a big role to play there. The comprehension beyond the self, beyond the me. And you mentioned the bumblebee back then, you mentioned the tree. I mean, just any of these things. actually also a stone on a beach. I think, you know, there is so much to think about and to ask yourself about its origins. And I wonder what you feel about the potential role of nature in transformational processes, inner transformational processes.
Speaker #0
I think we're constantly co-creating with all life. And I think we've kind of created this delineation between what is nature and what is not. And, and those delineations need, should be questioned. So we say, oh, well, you know, humans are at the top of the intelligence chain and, you know, all of a sudden in comes AI and you're like, okay, wait, what does that mean now? And, you know, speaking of AI, they recently had the longest conversations with whales, but I don't think that's enough. Because if we're using the algorithm of extraction, which we do even with people, right? We say, how is this useful for me? Which we do even if you're listening to this podcast, you're like, is this worth my time? Yes,
Speaker #1
it is.
Speaker #0
Does this give me any takeaways? What if you just heard and said, look, these are these two people exploring the present moment with sincerity, and I'm just going to bless them, right? Like what? would happen if we are non-extractive? What happens if we're all, with all life, connected in a many-to-many web of co-creation? That would fill anyone with awe, right? That everything is alive and it's interacting with each other. And if we stop the you me orientation, the extractive mindset, then perhaps we can lean into something far greater than what any one of us imagine. And I think if we do that, we change the world.
Speaker #1
But how do we get there?
Speaker #0
You get there by you and I practicing that, right? And it's hard to practice. It's not like a simple practice. I downloaded this and now I watch my breath. for 10 minutes a day and research shows that that increases my attention, all of that. It's not that. It's actually leaning into spots where you're like, oh, my heart is broken, but it actually is not falling apart. It's opened into something much more. It's not a heartbreak, it's a heart open. Yeah,
Speaker #1
that's it.
Speaker #0
And I think that's where we have to push ourselves. And if we do, we then will start to pave the way for a very different world. Yesterday, I was at the store and I saw this guy who, it just broke my heart. It moved me to tears. He got the tab. He was an older guy. Maybe he didn't have his full wits on him. It's at $26.14. And he kind of tried a credit card. It didn't work. And then he's like, oh, can I try this rebate card? And the cashier is like, oh, sir, that's only $3.95. That's not going to cover your costs. And then he looks inside the bag and he takes out things because he realizes he can't afford that. And then he kind of puts it back in and he tells the cashier, let me just go check my bank because something must be off. which was his way of saving himself the embarrassment of returning all of that. And I'm there and I just, I was like, how have we created this kind of world? You know, like, what should I do? You know, I was heartbroken. I think the cashier was too. And then as that guy laughed, I just went to the cashier and said, you know, here's $26. I happen to have it. And, you know, like you look at that and you say, is that going to change the world? Probably not. Is that going to change me? Probably. I was singing, my heart was singing songs of love. I went out, I tracked him down, the cashier went and tracked him down with the bag. And he's like, oh, really? It's paid for? And I said, yeah, you know, and just keep paying it forward. And to me, that's it.
Speaker #1
I totally agree with you. These are the kinds of things that that scene, I can picture it. I think many people would do the same, actually. I think that we maybe don't always explore that possibility. And I'm sure, and you must witness this, that such acts of surprise kindness are happening all the time. They just don't get the airplay. But they are out there.
Speaker #0
And to me, this is the solution to it. Like, what should I do? Do a small act of kindness. And it sounds so small. It challenges your whole existence and your sense of, oh, my God, I matter so much to but try it. And I think if you try it,
Speaker #1
yeah,
Speaker #0
opens up a whole new field.
Speaker #1
And it doesn't have to be about money. No, it's about time. It's sometimes a hug on the street with somebody clearly needs one or.
Speaker #0
And I would venture to say that it shouldn't be about money. I happen to give you one of those examples. I'm myself not a person of means. Right. But, um, I think it should be all forms of capital. Go hug a tree. Oh,
Speaker #1
I do, often.
Speaker #0
It's the most incredible thing, right? My wife has taught me that.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, really. But I mean, I think one thing that really does interest me is that we, this is a time of kind of multiple crises. Certainly, if one tunes into the news, then that is the impression that we're left with. And sometimes it is difficult to know where to put your focus in terms of. playing a part in life beyond oneself. And I think the different crises are very, collectively, they overface people and lead people to disconnect from the crises, and then probably from one another, from themselves, and from everything that actually needs the very opposite. So I wonder, I mean, maybe you've just answered that question anyway, but if there is a suggestion for people who perhaps I instinctively feel I would like to play more of a part, but all I can do is retreat because it's too much. It's too abstract. It's too much.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I think it sounds like, wow, when the whole world is burning, I'm just going to do a small act of kindness. It sounds frivolous, right? But actually, it's the most significant thing you can do. So we all want to do. We all want to respond to the suffering of the world. But how then do we figure out what is ours to do? I think there's a difference in just doing something and then doing it with the discernment of what you're called to do. This capacity to listen to yourself so you realize that what is mine to do? And as you go on that journey, you know, Howard Thurman had this beautiful quote, don't ask so much what the world needs. go out and do what makes you come alive because what the world needs most are people who have come alive um and as you come alive in this deep kind of a way you universe starts to give you more and more opportunities um you know you start with doing what you love then you just start loving what you do and then there's just love then you just do right like Thank you. then like you're no longer seeking the purpose. The purpose is seeking you because you are an empty vessel that wants to be in service to the world. So. Yeah, I say go out and do a small act of kindness. This is what I do whenever I'm confused. And I've got so much on my to-do list that's resting on my shoulders. And if I start to feel the weight of all of it, I just go out and do a small act of kindness. And in that act, everything changes.
Speaker #1
So interesting. And I know that we're coming to the end here, but I do want to pick up on one thing you said about broken hearts. hearts that are not necessarily disintegrating. And I want to just take that within the context of the climate crisis, because I think it's a real struggle for a lot of people, actually, to remain hopeful in the face of climate crisis. Do you have thoughts on how people could potentially come back to a place of hope? Because without hope, then, of course, none of this action that's necessary is as likely to occur.
Speaker #0
I think hope can be incredibly encouraging. And I also think that there's a place of motivation in us that is beyond hope as well. So like T.S. Eliot said, you have to be careful about hope because it could be hope for the wrong thing. But I think till we get to that point, I think hope is clearly a really powerful motivator the way I tend to think about it. is in a slightly different context. I was having a conversation around AI and you have this camp of doomsday people saying AI is going to take over and all of life is going to end the way we know it. And then you have this techno utopia folks who will say, oh my God, this is going to solve everything, you know, including the climate crisis because it's going to open up a whole different set of possibilities. And I'm sort of neither. And I don't have a need to be either because my thing is that what am I going to do if we are in this tech utopia? Or what are we going to do if we're in this dystopia? No matter what the external circumstance, I want to show up with a heart of compassion. So utopia or dystopia, I'm here in service. That's my calling. So I'm not motivated merely by solving. narrow margin problems. I'm motivated by love itself. I can be, and I think service is. And if we are in that frame, then you're no longer micromanaging the future and you are coming from a place of deep care. So for me, it's less of a question of, oh my God, what's going to happen in the future. It's more of a question of, do I have the ability to respond with compassion, with generosity, with kindness, and even with joy in a way that tends to the challenges of the present moment? I think that's possible. I see people do it and I want to be like that when I grow up. I can't say I don't think about the future and that it doesn't break my heart. But every time it does, like I'm the kind of guy who will weep when he's crossing a homeless person. And I've seen thousands and thousands of them. You know, I've lived on the streets myself. So you're you know, you can still you can have that. But at the same time, it's also an invitation to be centered in that part of you, which is which is very, very ancient and undisturbed by the emergent. And I think that's your best bet at. this conversation, at this response to the emergent with the ancient.
Speaker #1
Okay, which takes us right back to where we began. And to my final question, which is, if there were one skill that you could bestow upon everybody in the world, what would you choose it to be?
Speaker #0
I would say an act of kindness every single day. If people would go out and just say, wake up and say, well, what's going to be my new act of kindness today? That, I think, would be a superpower that would change the world.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I think you're right. Nipun, thank you so much for all of your thoughts. I've really enjoyed speaking with you.
Speaker #0
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker #1
I hope you enjoyed traveling into the worlds of gratitude, generosity and giftivism just as much as I did. If you'd like to know more about Nipun and the many projects he's involved in, you'll find links in the show notes. And you'll find other links to lead you to more information about the Inner Green Deal. We regularly hold community events, for example, and you are always welcome to join. And a special note. In the four years since it's been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded, and we're committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials free. To live up to this ambition, we're inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, does make a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what's going on on the inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you'd like to donate, head to the show notes for the relevant link. I thank you for your generosity and for your interest in the inner green deal. And if you'd like to hear other interesting conversations with people working on sustainability and the establishment of deeper connections to ourselves and the world around us, there's plenty in the archives. And as ever, if this conversation captured your imagination, we'd love you to share it and subscribe to the podcast. I look forward to you joining me again next time. For now though, bye-bye.

Description

We are welcoming Nipun Mehta, founder of ServiceSpace, a global movement that touches millions of people through the merging of volunteerism, technology and the gift-economy.

Tamsin spoke to Nipun about the potential and far-reaching impacts of an unexpected act of kindness. Not only for the recipient, but for oneself, society and the world at large.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
I think there's a kind of a leap that you need to take from your known to a bit of the unknown when you're like, oh, that person doesn't maybe look like me or doesn't think like me or doesn't have even scarier perhaps is that doesn't have the same worldview. And you say, okay, well, am I better off in my bubble not engaging or am I better off to broaden my frame? and meet the other person in that frame? And if I do, what might we create together that we could never do alone?
Speaker #1
Welcome to the Inner Green Deal podcast, where we talk to inspiring guests about the human dimension of sustainability and explore the link between our personal journeys and the positive impacts we can have on the world. My name is Tamsin Walker. In this month's episode, we're talking about gratitude, generosity, and giftivism. To explore these three Gs and the role they can play in helping to change mindsets, I'm joined by Nipun Mehta. Nipun is the founder of Service Space, a global movement that touches millions of people through the merging of volunteerism, technology, and the gift economy. He set it up after quitting his first and only job as a software engineer to become a full-time volunteer. He's never looked back. Fast forward more than two decades and service space has evolved to become a global ecosystem of over 1.5 million members delivering free services worth millions of dollars. He's also been honored by the Dalai Lama as an unsung hero of compassion. Welcome, Nipun. It's a pleasure to have you on the Inner Green Deal podcast.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
So the first question is a question that. everybody who comes onto the podcast gets asked. And it's this, is there a place in nature that was particularly important to you while you were growing up?
Speaker #0
You know, while I was growing up, I wasn't surrounded by as much nature. I grew up in the cities. But one thing I really remember is the sound of the waves in the ocean. And that must have been a very strong influence because when I was in college, I remember specifically going out like in the middle of the night to the ocean just to sit and listen to the waves. My wife has particularly tuned me into a lot of nuances, but I remember when we bought the place where we live now, the thing that... got us both is there was this amazing giant tree out in the distance and it just felt like a grandfather and it just captured me and my wife came and saw and he's like oh you're not looking at the house like just staring at that tree and and i i don't typically do that and it just had me wow it it is big and feels like it's been around for thousands of years but something about its larger context. drew me in and then drew my wife in too. So that's my response.
Speaker #1
I like both of the references you made there. I would just add to that the ocean. I spent a few days in a house that used to be a Coast Guard's cottage and it was perches right on the edge of a cliff. And the sound is so present. And I came back to Germany last night. I was in Berlin last night and I was listening in my half sleep and I could hear the traffic going by, but in my mind, it was the ocean. The roar of the traffic somehow became the ocean.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I think it stays with us somehow.
Speaker #0
It does. I mean, there's now a lot of research on how all of this is very meaningful or very resonant for our internal biological systems as well. I mean, I'm constantly in awe of nature. So awe is another thing for me. Not just non-human things, but even humans. Like, I'm just in awe of how we are so... predisposed to kindness and compassion and care and connection.
Speaker #1
Well, you mentioned the generosity and kindness and compassion, and that would take us on to service space. Can you give a nutshell overview of exactly what service space is and what it does?
Speaker #0
Sure. I mean, I think I tend to see service space as a conversation, a live conversation between the ancient and the emergent. And the ancient is all these core values that make us come alive, that make our biologies come alive, that make our minds come alive, that make our spirits come alive. And these are things like compassion, kindness, this deep equanimity that we're all capable of. And on the other side is emergent, like what's actually happening in the world and how are these values relevant to the sort of immediate problems and the challenges that we might face. So I think Service Bay started in 1999 by building websites for nonprofits. That's sort of what we did as a manifest work. But underneath it, the challenge it was trying to solve is that especially in the Silicon Valley where we started, there was just a lot of greed and there was just a lot of unrelenting ambition that left people hungry and that left people starved. And so we looked at that and we said, well, you know what might be a great antidote? is to give and to give with no strings attached, to give without even thinking of an outcome. And that's sort of how we started and we've kept it up. So all along we would say, okay, well, we're now making websites for nonprofits not relevant, but we have all these volunteers. What should we do? And then we said, well, we should try to solve some problems in the world that are meaningful to solve and says, well, A lot of people are doing that. What can we uniquely do? What is our unique offering? And what we realized is that we wanted to solve problems that money couldn't solve. And because we were not operating with financial resources, it allowed us this latitude to hold this incredible question, right? Like, what are problems that money cannot solve? That by itself is like a fascinating fireside conversation that we could have, right, with anybody. I mean, baseline default is, you know, we just need money and then we'll be able to solve everything. And it turns out that's just not true. So we've been doing lots of experiments. We no longer do websites, but then we started to do these web portals. We started to run different restaurants that were operating on a gift economy basis. We started to do these circles in living rooms all over the world. We started to host these retreats. So it's just a giant canopy to play in. But underneath it, it's really this conversation around how do we make the ancient values relevant in our modern times?
Speaker #1
Wow. So, I mean, you mentioned a few of the directions in which service spaces evolved over the past 25 years. And from what I have read, yeah, it seems you've got. feet in a lot of different places and so many interesting projects newsletters videos meditation circles your dinners so so many different things but so the overarching intention is the same behind all of them yeah
Speaker #0
it really is that it is first to serve serve yeah right not just to create external impact i mean most non-profits exist to change the world our thought was our tagline also is change yourself, change the world. That if you focus on changing yourself through the very act of service, then you will invariably lead to changing the world, but you will also be different along the way. So you won't be a problem for the world to solve later, right? Because so many times we're like, oh yeah, you know, like, oh, I need a little bit of anger to solve this problem because, you know, that person's just never going to listen. And then you realize you become an angry person. And for that other person or another set of people, you're a problem to solve. And so you're like, okay, that's just not a good cycle to be in. Can we do better? Can we have a design upgrade to factor in who we become alongside what we do?
Speaker #1
Oh, I like this idea of a design upgrade. It seems, listening to you, that service-based encourages... selflessness, would you say?
Speaker #0
I would say it encourages a step from a me orientation to a we orientation, and then from a we orientation to an us orientation.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Because even if you say we, the bald people of America, you know, are now united, and we all get along, then you still have the non-bald people that you are not gonna... uh include and so the we also tends to have uh you know challenges and problems and limits um and so how do we start to go not how do we step from the me to the we to the us And as you step into the us, the me becomes a very loose entity, a very sort of thin layer that needs to be honored because it's a fantastic instrument. But you're playing a much more infinite game. If you're just engaged in the circles of me, it becomes a very, you start to optimize and gravitate towards very finite games. And finite games are games where there's a winner and a loser, right? You succeed or you fail. An infinite game is played not for the purpose of winning, it's played for the purpose of continuing the play. And that's a very significant difference. I would say it's a step in this direction and acts of service are a fantastic way to cultivate that. And so you serve the world on the outside and you're mindful of what the world needs. But you're also mindful of the places in you in which there are gaps or this incredible identification with the me and to sort of release that and step into greener pastures.
Speaker #1
I mean, so we're kind of heading into the transformational waters here. But before we get directly there, I just know it struck me very recently in the UK. there were these riots. And then in the aftermath of the riots, the reports were very often of a coming together of community, of these acts of service, acts of generosity, people who didn't know each other, don't know each other. And I'm really curious about this, how easy it is for people to tap into that service part of themselves. Because, you know, we do also, and there I think I would use the collective we that there is a kind of a bubble-esque element to modern life. And it isn't always easy to step outside of that. But how have you experienced that? Obviously, you have a lot of contact with a lot of people who are serving.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I mean, I think it's incredible. I think there's a kind of a leap that you need to take from your known to a bit of the unknown. When you're like, oh, that person doesn't maybe look like me or doesn't think like me or doesn't have even scarier perhaps is that doesn't have the same worldview as me. And you say, okay, well, am I better off in my bubble not engaging? Or am I better off to broaden my frame and meet the other person in that frame? And if I do... What might we create together that we could never do alone? And that's kind of a design question, right? Like, are you going to be curious or are you going to privilege safety over curiosity? There is a kind of safety to just being in your own domain of the known, but there is something to be said about curiosity. And so I would venture and say that if you are fearful around it, then Maybe don't take like 13 steps in that direction, but take that one baby step, right? Like, okay, am I afraid of that bee, right? Am I afraid of that bee or can I step into it with curiosity? And if you do, you might realize, oh my God, if the bee stings me, then actually it dies. And so you're like, it's not in its interest to sting me. And then you say, well, why am I so annoyed by the sound of the bee? And you're like, Okay, well, that's something you can work on. And so you're like, okay, let's see if I can calm that part of my reaction down. And then you engage. And when you engage, you can start to coexist in a very different way. And then you start to see that, wow, actually, they pollinate. And wow, like, it takes a whole lifetime for the bee to produce the kind of honey that I just take for granted in one swipe, you know. So I think looking at... the world, looking at your own fears through a lens of curiosity can be helpful within our limits. And there are times where you have to, you know, honor safety as well. But I think there are times when you have to question that, right? So choosing curiosity over safety is a pretty good algorithm many, many times in life. And there's a wonderful quote, it says, you know, there's the kind of fear that keeps you alive. And then there's the kind of fear that keeps you from living. And I think that's the difference is that you can say, oh my God, like if I go too much on the curiosity side, that sure, you might get burned here and there, but actually you may be able to co-create something absolutely magnificent beyond your wildest imaginations. And frankly, I have seen that. I have leaned into curiosity. I've leaned into the we. I've leaned into difference. I've leaned into so many different ways, especially when you work with volunteers. And when you do, you realize that, oh, my God, you know, everyone at the end of the day comes alive with love. Biologically, this is true. We do an act of kindness and it does that. Everyone comes alive as they feel. safe and connected with you. So to me, it's, you know, it's always been within reason, of course, with all your precautions that everyone has to take. But I think curiosity has always been a strong, a stronger guiding principle. And I, that's what I would encourage people to, to step into that, go just a little bit beyond your comfort zone. Curious is one thing, But I think as you go. deeper into that, you are humbled. And as you go deeper into that humility, you actually land at this incredible reverence, I would say, for the possibility of this co-creation that we call life.
Speaker #1
When I'm just listening to you there, particularly love the bumblebee, but also I love the humility and what you just described there. But it. does it also when you hit that kind of place of reverence is there also a sense of liberation attached to that oh i would say major sense of liberation because you were confined this whole time because you thought this was all your world was and
Speaker #0
you just worked so hard to preserve and protect the status quo when really your job was to just surrender and ride the waves of the ocean you know which is so of. fabulous, which is so amazing. Like who wants to take a bucket from the ocean and your whole life, you're like preserving and protecting the bucket when it actually doesn't even make sense because you can't preserve it beyond a certain point. It's going to evaporate. No matter how much you love yourself, we all have to pass on. But there's a kind of leap to, you know, to go from control to a kind of surrender. And I always tend to think of it as the shift from The known to the unknown to the unknowable. The known gives you the certainty. The unknown gives you a kind of humility in some sense. But the unknown is still relatively simple. But then beyond that, there is the unknowable. And the unknowable is scary because then the ego is no longer in the driver's seat. So now you're functioning by the laws of the ocean. And that is not something that's ever going to be entirely under your control. And if you lead with the unknowable, it changes how we co-create. It changes how we hold ourselves. It changes who we become. But that's a scary thought for the ego, for the known. So I would say... Instead of venturing, instead of doubling down on the known, I would say venture out and explore the, not just the unknown, because that's just novelty at some level. I mean, it's an inspiring middle step, but really the unknowable, where the ego is no longer in the driver's seat. And then you're like, well, but then what will feel? Well, experiment and find out. Take a leap.
Speaker #1
Okay, that feels like you've just thrown down the gauntlet. I talking of quotes also and of control you mentioned control that I just want to quote something that I read that you said if we can't control our attention all our technologies frameworks metrics and institutions can't create much change if however we are able to nestle our innovations in the field of our own inner transformation then its potential is boundless what do you think the world would look like or could look like if we were able to control our attention?
Speaker #0
Well, attention, I think, is a way to get to inner transformation. But yes, I think if we can't be still, our options are very limited. I had a conversation with my niece on her graduation day from middle school, eighth grade. And I said, you know, Millie, there are certain parts of life that only come alive beyond a certain delta of attention. So if you can only pay attention for eight seconds, which is the average human attention span these days, social media has kind of brought it down. And so I was saying, if you and I are only speaking in eight second sound bites, our conversation can only go that deep. But if you're able to hold space for a little longer, and I'm able to hold space for a little longer, it changes the possibility of how we relate and what comes out of our relationship. Just starting at that. baseline, I think, is critical. And as you do that, as one deepens in this realm, what happens is that you start relating with all life in a very different way. You move from me-to-me connections to we-to-we connections. That it's not just Tamsin and Nipun having a conversation, it's that tree that's here, in fact. is a part of this conversation and the village you're in. And you can go farther and farther and farther back to many generations and all of those causes and conditions and all of my causes and conditions are coming together in this moment in a certain way. And when you do that, when you allow yourself that gift of holding the other, not just as a projection of your me, but as a stepping into a deeper we, then the we to we connections really start to blossom an entirely new possibility.
Speaker #1
Just to go back to nature, which is, of course, very important to the inner green deal. I think that it also has a big role to play there. The comprehension beyond the self, beyond the me. And you mentioned the bumblebee back then, you mentioned the tree. I mean, just any of these things. actually also a stone on a beach. I think, you know, there is so much to think about and to ask yourself about its origins. And I wonder what you feel about the potential role of nature in transformational processes, inner transformational processes.
Speaker #0
I think we're constantly co-creating with all life. And I think we've kind of created this delineation between what is nature and what is not. And, and those delineations need, should be questioned. So we say, oh, well, you know, humans are at the top of the intelligence chain and, you know, all of a sudden in comes AI and you're like, okay, wait, what does that mean now? And, you know, speaking of AI, they recently had the longest conversations with whales, but I don't think that's enough. Because if we're using the algorithm of extraction, which we do even with people, right? We say, how is this useful for me? Which we do even if you're listening to this podcast, you're like, is this worth my time? Yes,
Speaker #1
it is.
Speaker #0
Does this give me any takeaways? What if you just heard and said, look, these are these two people exploring the present moment with sincerity, and I'm just going to bless them, right? Like what? would happen if we are non-extractive? What happens if we're all, with all life, connected in a many-to-many web of co-creation? That would fill anyone with awe, right? That everything is alive and it's interacting with each other. And if we stop the you me orientation, the extractive mindset, then perhaps we can lean into something far greater than what any one of us imagine. And I think if we do that, we change the world.
Speaker #1
But how do we get there?
Speaker #0
You get there by you and I practicing that, right? And it's hard to practice. It's not like a simple practice. I downloaded this and now I watch my breath. for 10 minutes a day and research shows that that increases my attention, all of that. It's not that. It's actually leaning into spots where you're like, oh, my heart is broken, but it actually is not falling apart. It's opened into something much more. It's not a heartbreak, it's a heart open. Yeah,
Speaker #1
that's it.
Speaker #0
And I think that's where we have to push ourselves. And if we do, we then will start to pave the way for a very different world. Yesterday, I was at the store and I saw this guy who, it just broke my heart. It moved me to tears. He got the tab. He was an older guy. Maybe he didn't have his full wits on him. It's at $26.14. And he kind of tried a credit card. It didn't work. And then he's like, oh, can I try this rebate card? And the cashier is like, oh, sir, that's only $3.95. That's not going to cover your costs. And then he looks inside the bag and he takes out things because he realizes he can't afford that. And then he kind of puts it back in and he tells the cashier, let me just go check my bank because something must be off. which was his way of saving himself the embarrassment of returning all of that. And I'm there and I just, I was like, how have we created this kind of world? You know, like, what should I do? You know, I was heartbroken. I think the cashier was too. And then as that guy laughed, I just went to the cashier and said, you know, here's $26. I happen to have it. And, you know, like you look at that and you say, is that going to change the world? Probably not. Is that going to change me? Probably. I was singing, my heart was singing songs of love. I went out, I tracked him down, the cashier went and tracked him down with the bag. And he's like, oh, really? It's paid for? And I said, yeah, you know, and just keep paying it forward. And to me, that's it.
Speaker #1
I totally agree with you. These are the kinds of things that that scene, I can picture it. I think many people would do the same, actually. I think that we maybe don't always explore that possibility. And I'm sure, and you must witness this, that such acts of surprise kindness are happening all the time. They just don't get the airplay. But they are out there.
Speaker #0
And to me, this is the solution to it. Like, what should I do? Do a small act of kindness. And it sounds so small. It challenges your whole existence and your sense of, oh, my God, I matter so much to but try it. And I think if you try it,
Speaker #1
yeah,
Speaker #0
opens up a whole new field.
Speaker #1
And it doesn't have to be about money. No, it's about time. It's sometimes a hug on the street with somebody clearly needs one or.
Speaker #0
And I would venture to say that it shouldn't be about money. I happen to give you one of those examples. I'm myself not a person of means. Right. But, um, I think it should be all forms of capital. Go hug a tree. Oh,
Speaker #1
I do, often.
Speaker #0
It's the most incredible thing, right? My wife has taught me that.
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, really. But I mean, I think one thing that really does interest me is that we, this is a time of kind of multiple crises. Certainly, if one tunes into the news, then that is the impression that we're left with. And sometimes it is difficult to know where to put your focus in terms of. playing a part in life beyond oneself. And I think the different crises are very, collectively, they overface people and lead people to disconnect from the crises, and then probably from one another, from themselves, and from everything that actually needs the very opposite. So I wonder, I mean, maybe you've just answered that question anyway, but if there is a suggestion for people who perhaps I instinctively feel I would like to play more of a part, but all I can do is retreat because it's too much. It's too abstract. It's too much.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I think it sounds like, wow, when the whole world is burning, I'm just going to do a small act of kindness. It sounds frivolous, right? But actually, it's the most significant thing you can do. So we all want to do. We all want to respond to the suffering of the world. But how then do we figure out what is ours to do? I think there's a difference in just doing something and then doing it with the discernment of what you're called to do. This capacity to listen to yourself so you realize that what is mine to do? And as you go on that journey, you know, Howard Thurman had this beautiful quote, don't ask so much what the world needs. go out and do what makes you come alive because what the world needs most are people who have come alive um and as you come alive in this deep kind of a way you universe starts to give you more and more opportunities um you know you start with doing what you love then you just start loving what you do and then there's just love then you just do right like Thank you. then like you're no longer seeking the purpose. The purpose is seeking you because you are an empty vessel that wants to be in service to the world. So. Yeah, I say go out and do a small act of kindness. This is what I do whenever I'm confused. And I've got so much on my to-do list that's resting on my shoulders. And if I start to feel the weight of all of it, I just go out and do a small act of kindness. And in that act, everything changes.
Speaker #1
So interesting. And I know that we're coming to the end here, but I do want to pick up on one thing you said about broken hearts. hearts that are not necessarily disintegrating. And I want to just take that within the context of the climate crisis, because I think it's a real struggle for a lot of people, actually, to remain hopeful in the face of climate crisis. Do you have thoughts on how people could potentially come back to a place of hope? Because without hope, then, of course, none of this action that's necessary is as likely to occur.
Speaker #0
I think hope can be incredibly encouraging. And I also think that there's a place of motivation in us that is beyond hope as well. So like T.S. Eliot said, you have to be careful about hope because it could be hope for the wrong thing. But I think till we get to that point, I think hope is clearly a really powerful motivator the way I tend to think about it. is in a slightly different context. I was having a conversation around AI and you have this camp of doomsday people saying AI is going to take over and all of life is going to end the way we know it. And then you have this techno utopia folks who will say, oh my God, this is going to solve everything, you know, including the climate crisis because it's going to open up a whole different set of possibilities. And I'm sort of neither. And I don't have a need to be either because my thing is that what am I going to do if we are in this tech utopia? Or what are we going to do if we're in this dystopia? No matter what the external circumstance, I want to show up with a heart of compassion. So utopia or dystopia, I'm here in service. That's my calling. So I'm not motivated merely by solving. narrow margin problems. I'm motivated by love itself. I can be, and I think service is. And if we are in that frame, then you're no longer micromanaging the future and you are coming from a place of deep care. So for me, it's less of a question of, oh my God, what's going to happen in the future. It's more of a question of, do I have the ability to respond with compassion, with generosity, with kindness, and even with joy in a way that tends to the challenges of the present moment? I think that's possible. I see people do it and I want to be like that when I grow up. I can't say I don't think about the future and that it doesn't break my heart. But every time it does, like I'm the kind of guy who will weep when he's crossing a homeless person. And I've seen thousands and thousands of them. You know, I've lived on the streets myself. So you're you know, you can still you can have that. But at the same time, it's also an invitation to be centered in that part of you, which is which is very, very ancient and undisturbed by the emergent. And I think that's your best bet at. this conversation, at this response to the emergent with the ancient.
Speaker #1
Okay, which takes us right back to where we began. And to my final question, which is, if there were one skill that you could bestow upon everybody in the world, what would you choose it to be?
Speaker #0
I would say an act of kindness every single day. If people would go out and just say, wake up and say, well, what's going to be my new act of kindness today? That, I think, would be a superpower that would change the world.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I think you're right. Nipun, thank you so much for all of your thoughts. I've really enjoyed speaking with you.
Speaker #0
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker #1
I hope you enjoyed traveling into the worlds of gratitude, generosity and giftivism just as much as I did. If you'd like to know more about Nipun and the many projects he's involved in, you'll find links in the show notes. And you'll find other links to lead you to more information about the Inner Green Deal. We regularly hold community events, for example, and you are always welcome to join. And a special note. In the four years since it's been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded, and we're committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials free. To live up to this ambition, we're inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, does make a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what's going on on the inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you'd like to donate, head to the show notes for the relevant link. I thank you for your generosity and for your interest in the inner green deal. And if you'd like to hear other interesting conversations with people working on sustainability and the establishment of deeper connections to ourselves and the world around us, there's plenty in the archives. And as ever, if this conversation captured your imagination, we'd love you to share it and subscribe to the podcast. I look forward to you joining me again next time. For now though, bye-bye.

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