Transcription

• Anne Rapp

  It was hard to get made. It was hard to get distributed. Nobody kind of believed in it. And then suddenly it's the hottest critical movie of the year. I mean, you know, and to this day, anybody who knows movies knows Tender Mercies.

• Silas House

  Being a parent is a constant heartache because you're always worried and you always feel like you're doing things wrong. And that's certainly shown in this film.

• Tess Harper

  Tender Mercies is... I think what everybody longs for. It's not a love story. Mostly, it's about surviving.

• Tim Kirkman (Host)

  Welcome to Real Lives, a podcast about movies and the people who love them. In each episode, we focus on one film and hear stories from people about the ways in which the film made an impact on their lives. My name is Tim Kirkman, and today we're talking about Tender Mercies.

• Speaker #4

  Are you Mac Sledge, the singer? I was a singer, I mean. I'd really appreciate an interview. Nothing to say to anybody.

• Tim Kirkman (Host)

  When it was released in 1983, Tender Mercies got rave reviews. More than a few critics called it the best movie of the year, but it struggled at the box office. The story is about Max Sledge, a washed-up, alcoholic country singer, who finds a place to work and dry out at a small Texas motel owned by Rosalee. a young widow and the mother of a 10-year-old son named Sonny. With Rosalie's help, Mac gets sober, they get married, and he starts writing songs again in hopes of jump-starting his career. But old wounds resurface when he reconnects with his estranged daughter Sue Ann and his ex-wife Dixie, a country music star. Tender Mercies was nominated for five Academy Awards, including Best Picture of the Year. It won two. Best Original Screenplay for Horton Foote and Best Actor for Robert Duvall. Tender Mercies was directed by Australian filmmaker Bruce Beresford and stars Robert Duvall as Mac Sledge, Alan Hubbard as Sonny, Betty Buckley as Dixie, Ellen Barkin as Sue Ann, and in a remarkable film debut, Tess Harper as Rosalee.

• Tess Harper

  When I first got the role, actually when I finally got the script, I had to... bite it to see if it was true or not. There are teeth prints in it. I'm Tess Harper. I'm an actor and I played Rosalie in Tender Mercies. As an acting student myself, I can tell you that Robert Duvall was an idol to other actors. Certainly by Godfather, he became everybody's idea of the perfect actor. The actors decided that Duvall was an actor's actor. You know, you forgot he was an actor named Robert Duvall when you saw him. You just saw the character.

• Film Clip

  Lady, I'm broke. Be glad to work out what I owe you. All right. But there's no drinking while you're working here. Yes, ma'am.

• Silas House

  It's my favorite film, so I think it's probably in everything that I've written. I think in some way it's influenced all my fiction. My name is Silas House. I'm a novelist, a journalist, and I'm currently serving as the Poet Laureate for the Commonwealth of Kentucky. I saw Tender Mercies as a child when it was first released. I was much too young to really understand it at the time. But my aunt took me to see whatever movie she wanted to see, really. Most of my family was very fundamentalist, incredibly conservative, members of a Pentecostal sect called the Holiness Church. And the main tenet of this church is that they believe you can achieve holiness as a human being during your lifetime. Oh, of course, that means that everything is a sin. especially things like the movies or secular music or a carnival or dancing or a ball game. And so my aunt just, she was the black sheep in the family, and she was really stood up against all that, especially that being forced onto me as a child. Even though my parents wouldn't take me to the movies or trick-or-treating or things like that, my aunt did. And she often took me to things, you know. She didn't have the best judgment, which was great for me. And she tended to take me to a lot of movies that were about rural, working-class people, because we were rural, working-class people. And there were more movies like that back then, you know, in the 80s.

• Anne Rapp

  I'm a tough girl. I could not, you could not get me to act for a second, because I can't do that personal vulnerability the way actors do. I don't have it in me. I don't have the courage. They have more courage than anyone I know. My name is Ann Rapp. I live in Austin, Texas, and I'm a script supervisor, writer, and filmmaker. A script supervisor is in charge of continuity on the set because the movies are all shot completely out of sequence. And there's somebody has to keep track of all the details to make sure the continuity is correct. It's a mistake catcher is basically what it is. And what makes me good at that is I'm OCD. And I never figured that out until about a year ago. I asked a girlfriend who was an editor, do you think I'm OCD? And she just fell on her kitchen floor laughing. Like, you are just now figuring out that you're OCD. So I'm just a person of order. And I think that helped me. And... Back in about 1980, I just moved to Dallas, gotten into production and worked as a PA on every commercial I could or whatever and found my way on a couple of movies. And I wanted to be a script supervisor. And my first big break was Tender Mercies. And of course, that was Tess's huge break.

• Tess Harper

  I was living in Texas and I was doing commercials and industrial films and stage. And Sherry Rhodes was known for finding local talent throughout the South. And I was one of the people that was called into that audition. I hadn't seen the script, but I walked in and we talked back and forth together. I had sides. And he said, I would like for you to come back tomorrow and I want to tape your audition. So that's what I did. And he said, great, we'll be in touch. And that was it. Nothing's happening. Nothing's happening. My life is going on as usual. I start hearing from friends in Dallas that they've been cast in some of the smaller roles. And I didn't really think anything special was going to come out. Come on, this was the role that they were going to get an actress from New York or LA to play. I mean, I wasn't completely stupid. And then I get called again. And it's. Bruce on the phone. He says, listen, Robert Duvall is in Houston. Now I'm in Dallas. He says, can you get down there in the next few days and meet with Robert Duvall? And I said, yes. And I did. And I spent an afternoon with Robert Duvall at his friend's house in Houston. And we talked about the movie. And then I had lunch with him. And then he said, let's read a bit. let's read a little bit of these scenes. And I said, okay. So we went into the guy's kitchen and sat at a table and read scenes back. And then I waited. Then I get another phone call from Bruce saying, we're getting you on a plane tomorrow. You're coming to New York. We're going to read with the producers. So I went to New York and I did the audition and I flew home and I waited. And I get this phone call. Bruce said, could you come down to Waxahachie? I want the DP, that's the director of photography, to come and have a look at you. So I go down there. They put me close to sliding glass door so the light was coming in. Bruce turns to Russell Boyd, who is the director of photography, in his Aussie accent. What do you think, Russell? Is she unfotographable? Russell said, yeah, I think I could probably work with that. Two days later, I get a call from Bruce. He's coming up to Dallas for dinner with Russell Boyd and Janine Oppenwall, who was the production designer. And they're holding a bottle of champagne. That's how I found out I had the part for scale. The lowest amount of salary you can give an actor on a SAG movie. And Beresford told me later that when I walked in the door before I even opened my mouth, I looked exactly like the person he envisioned when he read the script.

• Anne Rapp

  She just got such critical acclaim for it that everyone knew in the end it was the right decision to make. It was, you know, by far the best. I mean, just working in the themes of the movie that he had been at the top of his game, a famous musician married to a... famous woman, and it was a nightmare for both of them. And then, you know, he falls as low as you can get, and it's the everyday woman who brings him back. So it only made sense that someone like Tess got that part.

• Silas House

  It's rare to see rural working-class people portrayed in a dignified and complicated way. Horton Foote writes about everyday, ordinary people. His characters are often very quiet people, yet they have such rich interior lives. And I think his characters are often trying to be the best people they can be. Tender Mercy certainly epitomizes that. I mean, to me, that's what the whole film is about, is Mac trying to be better. He's trying to be good. He's full of regret, and he wants to be the best person he can be. And he is buoyed by Rosalie, somebody who's so patient and quiet, yet so loving and supportive.

• Film Clip

  You ever thought about marrying again? Yeah, I have. You? I thought about it lately. I guess it's no secret how I feel about you. A blind man can see that. Would you think about marrying me? Yeah, I will.

• Anne Rapp

  It's the most unusual out there proposal, but it's what makes it just a thousand times better than every proposal you've ever seen in any movie. Everything Horton ever wrote was really based on his own life, his own family and friends, his own hometown. The original inspiration came from his nephew who was in a band and struggling. And he was... Some studio was trying to get Horton to come up with an idea to write an original screenplay. And a lot of Horton's other stuff were all based on plays. He was a playwright first. And so he pitched this idea to them about a struggling musician. And he had a nephew who was in college and he was in a band and he was struggling. like all young people do. You know, you struggle for money, you struggle for gigs, you're trying to balance your life. Some studio exec who was involved in the pitch said, you know what, we love that story. We'd love to do this. What if there was an older person in this? Well, the movie is about the older person, the old washed up musician who wrecked his career and is looking for redemption and love. you know, a reason for being again.

• Silas House

  This movie does a lot with gender, especially questioning like archetypes and film of men and women and the way they're portrayed, especially in the West. Mac's whole imagery is, you know, cowboy hat, boots, Levi's. He's often the stance, standing on this, you know, this sort of endless landscape. It's ripped right out of, I don't know, John Ford or something, but they're taking that sort of John Ford. cowboy and just allowing him to show all of his vulnerability and allowing him to really, instead of bossing the little woman around, the female character is very quietly, but also forcibly in control of the situation in ways that sort of sneak up on you.

• Tess Harper

  Rosalie is there because you see this man's struggle and his growth through her eyes. You know, she is the witness. This chance for herself and her son comes in the embodiment of a has-been country western singer and a drunk. She senses something about him that he's not a threat to her. He's a threat to himself. She's a young and vulnerable person out there. She's also very lonely, you know. These two people in the movie are very lonely.

• Film Clip

  Have any other family? No. I was the only kid my mom and daddy had. Had me kind of late in life. My daddy's been dead. We died two years after my husband was killed. Mama died a year and a half ago last spring. My mom and daddy are dead too. But I have a brother out in California someplace. We lost track each other. I have a daughter. You do? You're seven, eight years old when you're born. Where is she? With her mama.

• Tess Harper

  One of the first things that I did, and it's almost the only thing I ever wrote in my script, was Mary watched and kept these things in her heart. That is a quote from the Bible. So I thought... That's a good descriptive for Rosalie. It's not what she says. It's how she listens. There's that wonderful scene. in the garden. He's in mourning for this daughter that he didn't know as well as he should have because he wasn't there. And he's out there hacking up the garden by himself. And that scene is done in a wide shot. He's battered, he's bruised, he's sorry. And I just come there and I stand. And then I let him get about his grief. He just has to work it out. I mean, I watch and keep these things in my heart.

• Film Clip

  I don't know why I wandered out to this part of Texas drunk, and you took me in and pitted me and helped me to straighten out. Mary, why? Why did that happen? Is there a reason that happened? And Sonny's daddy died in a war? My daughter killed in an automobile accident. Why? You see, I don't trust happening. I never did. I never will.

• Silas House

  It's just one of the most beautiful scenes ever on film, I think. And especially Tess Harper's reaction. And so it's like she is fully listening to him. You know, she doesn't have a big... therapeutic response after that. But she has listened to him so intently. She doesn't need to say anything. He knows that she is listening. And that's all that matters.

• Tess Harper

  Ellen Barkin, I think, was on the set that day watching. And I walked out of that scene and I broke into tears. And she ran and gave me a hug.

• Anne Rapp

  That moment just killed me. I remember that too. You know, we were all just bawling on the set. And Daddy had, Daddy died like six months before I started working on Tuna Mercies. And I didn't really think much about it at the time. But I really, it was years later that I kind of realized that that movie came along at a time that really kind of comforted me in a way. You know, I wouldn't call Hart never a father figure, but there was something about. That film and my career starting and the comfort of that film that later I connected to a time that I really needed that and it came at the right time. So that wasn't just a career boost for me. It was also an emotional boost for me at the time.

• Tess Harper

  Rosalee is my dad. Rosalie, like my dad. did not give opinions, unlike his daughter. My dad was a carpenter. And then after I graduated college, he and mom became the owners of a little hardware store. And he was one of those hardware store owners. People would call him at midnight. My hot water tank's gone out. He... We'd do screen doors for the little old ladies of Mammoth Spring. He would cut the screens and then go to their house and put the screens on their doors. No extra charge. He was one of those, by your acts you will know them, the definition of a Christian man. Now, before everybody decides what that is, let me tell you what I think it is. A Christian man does not talk about other people. He is a member of a community. which he takes part in, and he's totally nonjudgmental. That's who my dad was, and my dad was a listener, and that's what Rosalie was. Because he's like Rosalie, he didn't actually say it, but I knew it. You know, he was. quite remarkable human being.

• Film Clip

  Here. Thank you. About what? Things. Your things or bad things? Some of both.

• Tess Harper

  He saw the movie, I think in Springfield, Missouri. In fact, they went to see the movie with my sister and her husband. And I took my not yet in school nephew to see Lady and the Tramp in the same movie complex. And then my mother said, well, Tess, if it ends tomorrow, and it probably will, you've met so many nice people. Well, she was right about one thing. I did meet a lot of nice people.

• Silas House

  I think it's the kind of movie that you can watch it at different ages and it means something different to you. So by the time I watched it as an adult, I was in my, I don't know, early 20s or mid 20s. And just remember being so blown away by it as a writer because I was really discovering myself, you know, my writing. Then later when I watched it, I don't know, in my 30s and 40s, I was responding a lot to it as a father. It's not only about him as a father. parents, but it's also about Betty Buckley's Dixie as a parent and Rosalie Tess Harper as a parent too. My favorite scene is probably when Mac is teaching Sonny the chords on the guitar. I lost it.

• Film Clip

  How? How? Too much Applejack. Thank you. I'll tell you what, Sonny, I don't lay awake nights worrying about it. Now look, there's a D, right? D as in dog. Now watch me. I'll call him out. I've decided to leave G here for a while. Not really. Let me know if you're staying.

• Silas House

  You can't think about that scene and not hear D as in dog. And the way he says dog. To hear that cadence in a film. And as a southerner, you just... Just recognizing it's like, I don't know, it sounds like home or something. It just hits you in the gut.

• Tess Harper

  For the rebel daughter, Ellen Barkin, I think she was perfect. One of the best things was when she comes in to see him.

• Anne Rapp

  And when she stands up to go, she asks him about, do you remember the song you used to sing to me? This is going to make me cry.

• Film Clip

  Mama says she never heard you sing it to me. I think it went something about, on the wings of a snow white dove, he sends his something, something love. I don't remember that. I don't.

• Tess Harper

  And she leaves, and he's got his back to the camera. You don't see him, you don't see if he's crying or whatever he's doing, but he's not ready yet to open himself up.

• Film Clip

  And all of a sudden... God blessed his soul. He sent him his love. On the wings of a dove. On the wings of a snow white dove.

• Tess Harper

  That decision to not be looking at the cameras was Bruce's. Bobby didn't initially like it, but it ended up being an absolutely heartbreaking scene.

• Silas House

  What's so effective there to me is that even though he's being vulnerable with the other characters in the movie, he's never as vulnerable with them as he is with us, the viewer. And so it causes such a deep connection as an audience member because he's revealing himself to us in that moment when he sings the song. that he cannot bring himself. It's too painful for him to sing it to her. If nothing else, that moment won him the Oscar.

• Anne Rapp

  I read this quote the other day that I literally wrote it down. I can't remember where I read it, but a good listener is a person who hears what you don't say, you know, and that was Horton. That's why he was such a good, good writer and successful for 70 years. He had the best ability. I don't know if you call it listening ability or just a character thing, but his stories start off so soft and so kind of slow. And then, boom, they just blindside you with emotion. And the guy died with a legal pad and a pen in his hand.

• Silas House

  I have a novel, Southern Mosta. The whole thing centers on, it begins with... a marriage falls apart because a woman refuses to take somebody in. And then that man, once he leaves, once that marriage dissolves, he has to be taken in by somebody. So that's certainly influenced by Tender Mercies, the way she takes him in. But I think it's also a film that gave me permission to write about rural people and the people who seem to have very quiet lives and just think about how interesting. a life that seems kind of static and ordinary can be.

• Tess Harper

  You have to admit that your life has been touched by all kinds of extraordinary people. I've been very lucky as that goes. I always like that old song that says, further along, we'll know all about it. And further along, we'll understand why. The next line is, cheer up, my brother, walk in the sunshine. We'll understand it all by and by. And it still brings tears to my eyes every time I listen to it.

• Film Clip

  I love you, you know. And every night when I say my prayers and I thank the Lord for his blessings and his tender mercies to me,

• Tess Harper

  you and Sonny hit the list.

• Film Clip

  Thank you.

• Tim Kirkman (Host)

  This episode of Real Lives was written, produced, and edited by me, Tim Kirkman. The executive producer is Mary Beth Greeley. Original music was composed by John Crook for Space Factory. Thank you to my guests on this episode, Tess Harper, Silas House, and Anne Rapp. I'd like to encourage you to check out Silas House's works of poetry and fiction, especially the novel Southernmost if you're a fan of Tender Mercies. There's a link to his website in the show notes where you can also find a link To the documentary film our guest Anne Rapp directed, called Horton Foot, The Road Bunk. Real Lives is produced in collaboration with Transylvania University. You can support the podcast by subscribing to the Real Lives sub stack, where I write about films each week. And if you like what you heard, tell your friends, post a review, give us some stars, and follow us on all the usual social media platforms. We'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email. Let us know what movie you'd like to hear more about. Maybe even talk about it. Our website is reellivespodcast.com. That's R-E-E-L livespodcast.com. Until next time, see you at the movies.