- Speaker #0
Welcome to Secret Identity. I'm your host, Troy Bruce Wayne, financing this motherfucking podcast. Bond, I almost said Birnbaum. That would have been...
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Ooh, someone's going through an inferiority complex.
- Speaker #0
Invest in complex with the boy wonder, Brent Birnbaum.
- Speaker #1
What up?
- Speaker #0
And she is sitting down, but she is in no wheelchair. It is Slater Harrison, the Oracle.
- Speaker #2
Prestige worldwide.
- Speaker #1
And hoes.
- Speaker #0
There is... Uh... today is probably our most requested thing ever to talk about. Yeah. The most requested anything to talk about. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I can't even come up with a joke because I'm a bad comic.
- Speaker #2
God damn the people with those socks.
- Speaker #1
Because I'm a hack.
- Speaker #0
Batman the Animated Series debuting in 91? 91. 91 to...
- Speaker #1
90... No, 92, I think. 92?
- Speaker #0
Not long after the Tim Burton movie.
- Speaker #1
Right, I think 92 to 95.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so probably after the second one. When did Batman Forever come out? Batman Returns.
- Speaker #1
Batman, great question. Batman Returns, I think, was 91.
- Speaker #0
Okay, so...
- Speaker #1
And 89 was the original Batman.
- Speaker #0
An continuation of that gothic, mystical,
- Speaker #1
dark... Danny Elfman doing the theming.
- Speaker #0
Danny Elfman doing the theming and not wanting to work with... prince and danny elfman ended up being the monster after all of that was he a predator he is a bad guy and ironically did the theme to the people's court when he himself should be in jail and into frame um tell us why batman the animated series is revered as the the best batman ever and why anything is modeled after it
- Speaker #1
it's it's honestly hard to put into words it's just it's just so fucking good and who knew that this would work so well because i think i think the story was they brought in bruce tim who was working he was he was moving a little bit to your oh yeah yeah just want you in the shot a little bit more there go uh continue from bruce yeah yeah so they were we were working with they were working with uh bruce tim they brought him in who was an artist he was a story editor and uh uh he was working we're not recording probably when you plugged it into the thing maybe sorry i just noticed yours is good yeah mine's good mine's good what if was it working uh it just stopped recording i just talked to the thing all right yeah it's the stuff from bruce tim sorry yeah so they brought they bring in bruce tim who was an artist he was a story editor uh was working on the because spielberg went through this thing where he started producing all these animated shows. He produced Tiny Toons and The Animaniacs. and uh there's one episode you could see one of the goons reading the tiny tunes yes before batman comes and exactly watching that one i forget what that was there was this like wb crisis exactly there's another one where like batgirls like calls batman she's like what do we uh he's like what are we gonna do tonight she's like the same thing we do every night picky and
- Speaker #0
he's like what my favorite is like when they're trying i think it was the christmas with the joker and they were like you're gonna watch one it's a wonderful life he was like you know i've never watched it i can never get past the name one-liners i like when you're a kid it's it's a fantastic movie your money uh your money's in bill's house and his money's in france house sorry i mean you know i've tried what but this is like when it landed for everybody and what's the number one thing they told you in space balls merchandise merchandising merchandise big you had so many once robin comes in you see the merchandise episodes. They scuba gear. or if they have a motorcycle, or if they need emergency bat-shark repellent, that's all merchandise stuff, and that's the kid stuff, but it was finally like Batman had a hit.
- Speaker #1
Well, exactly, and you made a great point about saying this was building off the Burton Batman, because prior to this, the Batman everyone was familiar with was Adam West. Yeah. He was goofy and silly and iconic.
- Speaker #0
And he was pissed that he didn't get cast as the Keaton. Batman. Right. He was like, I'm young enough to play him. I could play him. Why would you have me play him?
- Speaker #1
It would have been ridiculous.
- Speaker #0
It would have been ridiculous and it would have been the Batman they were trying to go for.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. And so they bring in Bruce Tim, who again, he was an artist. He's a story editor. But he just has such a grasp on the character. He brings in, I think, Alan Burnett. Of course, Paul Dini, who wrote so many of these episodes. Andrea Romano, who I think was the casting director. And they made a point of going in a very different direction of that 60s Batman.
- Speaker #0
Which was?
- Speaker #1
Which is dark. which is brooding, which is a detective story. That's why, for instance, with the casting of the Riddler, they really wanted the Riddler to be a very cerebral character.
- Speaker #0
Who played the Riddler the first time around?
- Speaker #1
It was Frank Gorshin. Frank Gorshin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Speaker #0
Frank Gorshin? Frank Gorshin.
- Speaker #2
Frank Gorshin. Not Frank Gorshin.
- Speaker #1
It was his.
- Speaker #0
Do you think so far ahead, Batman? Tell me that, because I've been thinking about forever.
- Speaker #1
They made a point of going.
- Speaker #0
You were so Joe Swanson just there.
- Speaker #1
That's right. Frank Ocean. I listen to his music all the time. I love Frank Ocean. He's the one that does Without Me, right? In Real Slip Shady. Big fan.
- Speaker #0
huge huge huge fan talk to me who is the cat i one thing i was excited to talk to you about this one is like there's such a great voice cast in this there's so many people that i know will go by the wayside that you'll know who it is and i'm gonna be like oh my god that's like rodney mcdowell was the mad hatter which we mentioned on planet of the apes episode there's just there's got to be so many that i know are in are littered throughout so many episodes i even did some research just to find out how many just iconic hollywood Oh,
- Speaker #1
yeah.
- Speaker #0
Starlets, there were, that were too old to be on the screen, and now we're getting some voiceover.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, they, like, literally turned 35, and they're like, that's it, bitch.
- Speaker #1
Well,
- Speaker #0
like,
- Speaker #1
you're a kid. Sorry. You know,
- Speaker #0
the first one for that was Mark Hamill. Yeah. Oh, like, that was the first big turnaround. 45,
- Speaker #1
get out of town.
- Speaker #0
And even him,
- Speaker #1
he wasn't the first Joker.
- Speaker #0
The first Joker was Tim Curry. They screen tested Tim Curry, and then Tim Curry got really, really, really sick.
- Speaker #1
And Tim Curry could- I had no idea. Wow.
- Speaker #0
It was Mark Hamill who stepped in and became the part.
- Speaker #1
But later- I love Tim Curry.
- Speaker #0
He was great. And I think it was sometime after It. Uh-huh. And that makes sense with the timeline, because It was like 91.
- Speaker #2
It was like- I always forget it was that clown.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Great. It was that clown. And he was going to be another one. And then they had to expay it. But you've watched animated series a bunch before. you've caught episodes here and there but this is like your first sort of like foyer dive into it I was kind of curious like what you thought what episodes you picked and what your process was by picking episodes because you didn't lean on the nerds who know everything you kind of went and did your own Carmen Sandiego research and I just wanted to hear your perspective.
- Speaker #1
It's weird I'm looking at Slater's list and it's just five Carmen Sandiego episodes I think she's talking about In the world.
- Speaker #2
Where in the world was I during this? No, I loved the show. I've seen a few episodes before. It was homework, you know. But yeah, it wasn't good. It was fantastic. You guys completely undersold it. The music, the pageantry. Wow. What a show.
- Speaker #1
Great other guy's reference.
- Speaker #2
No, but it really was, you know.
- Speaker #0
It was like a morning talk show.
- Speaker #1
It's the type of reference I would make. I know,
- Speaker #0
but I've done a lot of morning TV, and I'm watching it right in front of me right now. This is me at 9 o'clock in the morning.
- Speaker #1
You've got to go talk to me. You've got notes.
- Speaker #0
You're wrong with legs and with zins and a bottle of water and a PlayStation. He's Jewish. There's a lot happening.
- Speaker #1
I just want to listen to Jersey Boys now. TV! Sherry Bay!
- Speaker #2
but going into what was your thoughts this time around now that it was homework what were your impressions uh no and now we're cutting to a squirrel that's water skiing isn't that cute um back to you cat i feel shocked okay so my five episodes yes my process behind it's super scientific i googled best episodes from the batman animated series uh bad way to do it and you still got five carmen san diego yeah yeah you know what i've been flagged on google so i think it's just sending me to safer pastures um but i i searched on google and then i went to reddit because you know you got to get the people right the people's choice and uh and then the last i quickly stopped by the secret identity subreddit which apparently we have a subreddit we do did you guys know that yeah one of my friends was like yeah he goes i can't believe you guys have a subreddit.
- Speaker #1
I go, what do you mean we have a subreddit? He goes, you didn't know you had a subreddit? No, it's very few members, but they're people. They're just like, I love this podcast. And they're like, they just post about our episodes.
- Speaker #2
It's just Brent's tasteful nudes all down the Reddit thread. Listen,
- Speaker #0
if you're watching this and you're part of the subreddit, we love you. And we hope that we give you something tasteful and fruity every time you get into a new episode.
- Speaker #1
Shout out to the dude who started the subreddit. Your name, I forgot who did it. but shout out to that guy.
- Speaker #0
You'll have to do a lot more to impress this guy but
- Speaker #1
Lincoln something. His name was Lincoln.
- Speaker #0
Lincoln. Abraham. Yes. Four score and seven beers ago he started a subreddit for us. Continue.
- Speaker #2
What were you saying? I'm thinking of Matthew McConaughey Lincoln commercial.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #2
You want to feel this? You want to drive? So I went on sub oh fucking Jesus. I went on Reddit Google and then I just looked at the thumbnail pictures and was like that's pretty uh so that's how i landed with my five some crossed over with your choices brent yeah no take it and then i i replaced so we wouldn't we wouldn't step on each other's little toes yeah because we're morning show hosts now we got to be cordial for the people document babe uh so that's hr right there five episodes uh did you want me to go through which ones i had you wanted to start this off or you you were start us off with your episode yeah We could go 1-1-1 or we could do all five, all five, all five. I feel like you had to split up the visual.
- Speaker #0
Ladies first.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Yeah, Brent, pull up your skirt and tell us what you liked about this. Wow. Okay, so I'll start with my first one. Per chance to dream.
- Speaker #1
Ooh, good one.
- Speaker #2
It was a good one.
- Speaker #1
That's the Matt Hatter one, right?
- Speaker #2
Yes. Yes. Yeah, very, you could compare it to any like Sopranos dream sequence. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
uh kind of vibe like that you're in that benning um but yeah that joke that joke basically started this podcast that joke kicked off our friendship
- Speaker #2
The slow laugh that kept building between you two felt so intimate.
- Speaker #0
I still don't like doing the reaction myself. I know, I know. I'm sorry.
- Speaker #2
No, it's fine. If you guys want me to give you a minute, I so can.
- Speaker #0
No, I think I've revived it before.
- Speaker #2
Yeah?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no, it's working.
- Speaker #2
Yeah? Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I'm checking.
- Speaker #2
It's working.
- Speaker #0
Vibes are working.
- Speaker #1
I don't even need to do a vibe check right now.
- Speaker #0
A vibes ambassador has checked off.
- Speaker #2
um so it's the matt hatter episode her chance to dream yes like a midsummer night's dream uh yeah he's like batman's like in this delusional world whatever which i thought was kind of funny because like it's everything he's never been batman right yeah yeah yeah and so his parents are alive like he's thirsted all living together that's weird someone else should be batman yeah it's a lot like that uh the justice league episode uh for the man who was everything. yeah yeah yeah yeah that's basically what this one was about like that man had everything and he still he was like still missing uh you know a piece of him yeah and i think the therapist had made a point about yeah it was like you had everything you have your parents they're yeah they're not dead you know you have this you have that all this stuff and then you know one look at the newspaper and he's got dyslexia and he knows it's fake do you know what i love about that is the Batman reveal. Oh, yes. What's the reveal? When he takes off the mask?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, because Batman exists in this universe. He's like, how could there be a Batman? I'm Batman, but I'm only Bruce Wayne. And he sees Batman. He takes off the mask. And who is it?
- Speaker #2
The Mad Hatter. Yeah. Still a dream, though. It was like a double twist. It was a double entendre twist.
- Speaker #0
One of them.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it was a twist.
- Speaker #0
That's a great choice. Who was the Mad Hatter?
- Speaker #1
It was Roddy McDowell? Yeah, Roddy McDowell. And when he takes Roddy McDowell, Batman's like, why would you do this to me? And he goes, and Matt Hatter's like. You took away everything I ever wanted. He goes, I figured if I gave you everything you ever wanted, you would just leave me alone.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great. I love when you can see what Batman rogues and Spider-Man rogues are so good at is you see the hero trying so hard to appeal to their humanity, which I think we see a lot in that Mad Hatter episode toward the end. Yeah, yeah. Because he's the one in Mad Hatter's position for once. He's the crazy one trying to figure out how his life isn't.
- Speaker #2
puzzle piecing yeah even when he was it was like explained to him via like fucking the inception monologue yeah yeah it's like uh no i can get out of this and jumped off the building like the freaking wife in inception but she dated um so that he woke up and then he realized he's like part of the mad hatter's experience or experiment and um and yeah and then uh I thought it was interesting, though, because the way he realized that he was because he felt a little off like the first half of the episode. And then the way he realized it was the newspaper and the books and all that stuff. And he's like, I know, because the right side of your brain is what makes you be able to read. And like since he can't read, he knows it's the left side. So that's how he knew it was a dream. I'm like, whoa, smart.
- Speaker #0
Years later, they simplified it in Batman Beyond when Terry was like, how did you know that that guy inside your brain? How did you know it wasn't you? He's like, because he kept calling me. Bruce and he's like and that's not what I call myself meaning what do you call yourself when you're talking to yourself big daddy this big daddy as long as you're resting everyone what was the Tim the Tim Denever Superman's got nothing to do his weakness is Mojo you're gonna need something else to get it up Krypton It doesn't take much,
- Speaker #1
does it?
- Speaker #0
Just a tip. What was it? Like a 15-year universe they had between animated series and Justice League?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, 2002 to 2006.
- Speaker #0
And it really ends with Epilogue. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
And then we got the season afterwards.
- Speaker #0
We got the season afterwards.
- Speaker #1
It could have ended with Epilogue.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But great.
- Speaker #2
great episode I love it yeah well the last line when he leaves because Gordon's there and he's like what is this like the little contraption he was on it's like the stuff dreams are made of I was like what the my dreams are made of yeah I was like what is this Jim Gordon's got such a
- Speaker #0
I don't give a fuck that Bruce Wayne is Batman vibe in this show because there's a clown trying to copyright fish watch it oh my gosh it's a great episode yeah the laughing fish that's one of my top favorites yeah
- Speaker #2
baby I love that it's also called your mom's behind yeah Ooh, yeah.
- Speaker #0
Frankie, your episode. What would be your next episode?
- Speaker #1
I'm going to go with the great.
- Speaker #0
Should I add anything else you wanted to add? Hold on.
- Speaker #2
Nope.
- Speaker #1
I'm going to go with the gray ghost.
- Speaker #0
We were just talking about that. We were just talking about the gray ghost. Talk to me about the gray ghost. The gray that Gigi.
- Speaker #1
It's such a great, it's such a, cause we, I, we started off this episode by talking about how they wanted to distance themselves from the Adam West show, but they did such a great job of paying homage to Adam West. And so the gray ghost was a TV show that in universe, Bruce watched growing up about, it was like a. the show is so anachronistic. I have no idea when it takes place. The 90s, the 30s. There are many...
- Speaker #0
The 90s, the 30s. There's many timelines in which the zeitgeist could be captured. I think it more or less is his version of Zorro. Yes,
- Speaker #1
exactly. Yeah, no, totally.
- Speaker #0
They couldn't do Zorro.
- Speaker #1
They couldn't do Zorro because they didn't have the right...
- Speaker #0
Boom, let's do Grey Ghost. Yeah, they...
- Speaker #2
It's a G.
- Speaker #1
And it does a great job. It's a great character study into this. Adam West is kind of playing himself. He's a guy who's faded. His fame's gone. People have forgotten about who the Grey Ghost is. The show is out of syndication, and he's struggling to pay his rent. And then all of a sudden, there is a villain who is a mad bomber who's bombing places all over Gotham, and he's using the same MO as an episode of the Grey Ghost. Right. And Batman remembers that from watching it, and he tries to get the act.
- Speaker #0
actor played by adam west to help him and he's like yeah i'm out of the geek goes i'm not really a hero i'm just an actor kind of a weird thing to do yeah like imagine imagine there's like somebody going around robbing banks and we knock on christian bale's door we're like hey man do you think you could go to hong kong with us real quick and uh subvert a whole bunch of laws and i'm gonna play another bad mom that is a good point Maybe. as a billionaire that's the only time you'd be able to do that there was some kind of like like appearance fee thing it is a great point anything he should have gone after the writer who wrote the episode why why did he go after the guy who was like yeah it's like going after Shatner to figure out space crimes he was like I was wearing a girdle and that guy was a Mexican in a lizard suit he went to space and he came back to press as the fog Shatner did yes Peace.
- Speaker #1
Captain Slaw.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, he went to space and then he came back down and he was like, I just saw how insignificant our lives are and why any of us live. I'm not really quite sure why. And everybody's like, let's keep going to space.
- Speaker #2
They're like, take off your Star Trek outfit. It's over.
- Speaker #0
He always gets bad rep for people trying to take pictures with him and say he's an asshole, but he was like, I was in the middle of a meal. I'm not going to take a picture with you. I'm eating. But he's 92.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
damn yeah his wife like died member of the tribe uh is he yeah yeah him and uh him and spock yeah all right r.i.p uh fucked up spock's leonard nemo his last tweet was i've lived a beautiful life the one regret is i wish i never smoked yeah and he died of lung cancer are you serious yeah but he was like 92 wow he might be younger he was a little he was a little good but yeah he was in his 80s like smoking all the time yeah and like all those star trek people never really did it i I mean, Shatner did T.J. Hooker.
- Speaker #1
Right.
- Speaker #0
Danny Crane. Yeah, Danny Crane. I guess the next gen people got a lot, you know, LeVar Burton had Reading Rainbow and Patrick Stewart had Oblivion of stuff. But yeah, there's just something about Shatner, the guy knowing for space being the final frontier, going to the final frontier and going, there's nothing, there's no point to life.
- Speaker #1
He still handled it better than Katy Perry though. Yeah.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Oh my God.
- Speaker #0
I kissed a girl and I liked it. She was blue.
- Speaker #2
I kissed the ground of all the girls
- Speaker #1
I've ever kissed she was the most human her chapstick was delicious but yeah Grey Ghost awesome episode and the the poor silly silly writing choices notwithstanding it's awesome when they catch the guy who's the mad bomber he was the guy who was buying the Grey Ghost toys it was just like goes in Spain and then because the great ghost actor helps Batman solve this crime. There's a renewed popularity like in the great ghost. And then the final moments, grace is great. Bruce asks for his autograph and he goes, you're my hero growing up. And as he leaves, he goes, you still are. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Beautiful.
- Speaker #2
They really crush it with the last lines.
- Speaker #0
They do. With the, with the last line. And then the. the blackout and then the batman silhouette with the it's so great how they it's just nothing's left that's why you were gonna watch robin's reckoning and i was like that's a two-parter the two-parters are like little movies yeah and they do such a great job with them where i was like watch a half hour one better because even the half hour ones are 22 minutes i were willing there they're still like their own thing you watch it and you're just yeah how did you I guess growing up with West, growing up with the comics, a lot of this is comic inspired. Although it's weird because you have such iconic characters like Harley Quinn, who was never in the comics, but was created for the show to make. Because at the time, Bullock was another one. But Harley Quinn was created because at the time, everybody was like, it's starting to look kind of gay that the Joker is this obsessed with Batman. So they were like, let's give him a girlfriend and let him beat the shit out of him.
- Speaker #1
I don't know why I can't get up the ass.
- Speaker #0
I was convicted.
- Speaker #2
Back hands are like, he just doesn't care.
- Speaker #1
Hopping.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #2
It's just like freaking, oh, my pudding.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Miss J.
- Speaker #1
Hopping is too quick. You never get to enjoy sex.
- Speaker #0
I had this batarang up my ass for five years.
- Speaker #1
Yes. There you go. Little man. Give it to yo.
- Speaker #0
The episode that I got, Deep Freeze, season two, episode 10.
- Speaker #1
Two episodes,
- Speaker #0
two episodes. Paul Denis, written by, directed by Kevin Altieri, who did a good chunk of the episodes from this series. And this one was where Mr. Freeze returns and he's kidnapped from a cryogenic prison by this mysterious group. Who, when Batman discovers that the culprits are linked to Grant Walker, who is basically Walt Disney and is a megalomaniac obsessed with immortality. And Walker idolizes Mr. Freeze, wants to replicate the suit Mr. Freeze has, which keeps him alive forever. But Mr. Freeze sort of loathes the suit because as long as he's alive, his wife stays dead. And he can't figure out a cure to keep the cancer she has. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I don't know if they ever say cancer. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
she's got some sickness.
- Speaker #2
It's implied.
- Speaker #0
It's implied cancer. Yes, right. Of course. Neil Armstrong. But it wasn't just about living longer. Walker also wanted to have like this weird utopia where he could rule this frozen future completely unchallenged it's like that family guy cut scene where they froze walt disney and they unfreeze him and they're like welcome to the future walt disney you're like but he's not gone yet and they're like no and they're like put me back in and disney universe uh he he wants to become this godlike figure which that's when bat freeze is like i really want nothing to do with you but then he starts complying with him once he realizes that Walker took his wife. And he's like, if you help me, we'll find a cure for your wife. Batman steps in and he has to form this uneasy alliance with Mr. Freeze to stop this apocalyptic plan to freeze Gotham. And there's this, this, this. This was like the moment where Mr. Freeze became a cool Batman villain. The way I see it. Literally. Literally. He was chill. I'm holding back.
- Speaker #1
I know I see it I'm saving it for that
- Speaker #0
I just want you to know how much self-restraint I'm showing here I feel it I feel it from here the obsession with love obsession versus love is a theme that runs through Batman are his villains obsessed with him or is he obsessed with his villains is he obsessed with crime fighting This one is more or less you're looking at the obsession of the antagonists, which are Mr. Freeze and Walker, which Walker wants to be this weird, crazy ruler in the future. And Freeze just wants to get his life back and his wife back and live in this shell and can't do anything. And it's like a living hell, kind of like a. Stephen Hawking if he didn't go to Nono Island.
- Speaker #1
That's the great thing they do with him in the new Batman Adventures after Sub-Zero and they finally heal Nora. It's like, well, where do you go from there? And they chop his head off. They just make him a head. Yeah, yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, he has just like Akon. There was, like I said, Grant Walker was supposed to be Walt Disney. and he's voiced by Daniel O'Harely, who played the old man CEO in RoboCop. Oh. Yeah, the guy who's sitting at the round table when they're all getting... Oh,
- Speaker #1
yeah.
- Speaker #0
When that guy gets shot up. Fun fact. It's a spiritual sequel to the Emmy Award winning the episode Heart of Ice.
- Speaker #1
Which is on my list.
- Speaker #0
That's on your list. So this is a sequel to your episode that you're going to talk about. And Mr. Freeze was supposed to die in this episode. But Bruce, Tim, and Paul Deney decided that having his fate ambiguous would pave the way for his later appearances, like the episode in Batman Beyond, ironically named Meltdown. And the underwater scene.
- Speaker #1
Great episode, too.
- Speaker #0
Great episode. And the setting of Oceania and its failed utopia is influenced by, there's a science fiction classic, Bioshock, or Metropolis. I almost said And 20,000 leagues under the sea. But like. it left it legacy wise deep freeze made people look at victor von freeze and not mr freeze is a one-hit wonder villain no he wasn't really a guy they could slide it in the 60s i don't think the technology was there um and his success the success of the appearance of him and that led to the schumacher appearance in those movies which it is then they they butchered everything that was great about its character. Um... But the episode did help define the animated series as a book capable of blending lore, comic, and not just comic lore, science fiction lore, too. Because Mr. Freeze is kind of science fiction-y, as much as he literally has a freeze ray gun.
- Speaker #1
He's essentially a new character. I mean, he's existed for years. And I'll get to this when I talk about Heart of Ice. They completely changed the entire dynamic of Mr. Freeze. Right. He became, prior to that, the coolest cold character. in DC was Captain Cold.
- Speaker #0
Captain Cold, and that's a Flash villain,
- Speaker #1
right? He's a Flash villain. He's a great villain because he's just like, he's like, yeah, I don't want to fight the Flash. I got an ulcer. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And the one final moment I wanted to bring up about this episode was, I just thought, it just encapsulated everything about the DCAU. In the final moment, Mr. Freeze is gazing upon his frozen wife, and the world is collapsing around him like everything's just falling. And it's one of the most... emotionally visual shots in the entirety of the DCAU in the early episodes of Batman the Animated Series. This is like 92, 93. No cartoon was doing it like this one. And I think that's why it stands every test of time that you put it up against.
- Speaker #1
There's a reason IGN listed this as the greatest cartoon of all time.
- Speaker #0
Because they're not run by a bunch of dumb monkeys on unicycles. Dude,
- Speaker #2
yeah. Won like four Emmys. That's crazy.
- Speaker #1
They said greatest cartoon. This is including The Simpsons, South Park. Yeah. I mean, BoJack makes a case, but like... No,
- Speaker #0
I would put this above all of them because all three seasons are just as good. And there's a lot of complaints about the new adventures of Batman and Robin or the third season, whichever one they did, the redesigns.
- Speaker #1
I loved it.
- Speaker #0
I loved it too. Those ones are still so great. And I, on record saying, I'd say this, Simpsons, BoJack for me. One, two,
- Speaker #1
three. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I think that I have the same three because this, because... you gotta give the simpsons love yeah it's not bojack without no there's cartoon without the symptoms yeah we'll say that they're like yeah like as much as they shit on family guy with the manatees they're like we love the simpsons and i love south park south park would probably be four for sure and i get a lot of shit for this but family guy would be five family family guy would be great love it like about family and family guy is my when i need to just laugh or not think about anything.
- Speaker #0
Family Guy's right there. I mean,
- Speaker #1
I... I mean, a boat's a boat, but a mystery box can be anything. It could even be a boat.
- Speaker #0
There's just some dumb jokes that work. And like American Dad, you could argue, is far superior. But family jokes like that at Family Guy with a Pimple Bonus are like the frog that's trying to get out the window with the box. That like three-minute gag. And then like 20 years later, they did it where a frog is trying to get Peter out of the window. chicken fight yeah it's like i'm playing the video game right now for bs2 and stewie has to like jump on a bunch of pregnant the video game is great i'm playing it right now and like it's so great it's so great but this arguably best cartoon oh yeah what would you say your next episode is um Joker's favorite.
- Speaker #1
Joker's favorite.
- Speaker #2
I love that one. Poor guy.
- Speaker #1
Charlie. Charlie had it rough. Charlie had it rough. What was Charlie's situation in that episode?
- Speaker #0
Oh, sorry, Charlie. He was in a fit of road rage. Yeah. And I was like thinking, because when I drive, dude, I get crazy road rage. And I would totally cut off the Joker and then be like, shit.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Shit.
- Speaker #2
I'm not a pushover. This is going to be the one time I stand up for myself. Oh, my God, it's the Joker.
- Speaker #0
Yo, so funny. And then he's starting it like he's just complaining, bad day at work, I can't do anything right. And what is she making for dinner? Meatloaf. And then they call it back at the end of the episode. He's like, I wonder what's for dinner. I hope it's meatloaf.
- Speaker #2
I hope it's delicious.
- Speaker #1
At that point, anything is delicious. If you've been terrorized by the Joker for two years, a box of giraffe shit with termites inside it.
- Speaker #0
There was nothing off the menu for this guy. He moved. He changed his name.
- Speaker #1
He changed so much.
- Speaker #0
But I won't do that.
- Speaker #2
That was a fucking legend in that episode.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no.
- Speaker #1
With the bomb?
- Speaker #0
Oh my gosh, yeah. It's a fake bomb and he's like, getcha, bitch.
- Speaker #2
He's like, no final confrontation with Batman. You go out in the alley, just you and me.
- Speaker #0
Yo, so freaking good. Yeah, he got a spine by the end, but I just love that he's he changed his name to Don Watts. Yeah. Like he was like trying to be a part of Mad Men or something.
- Speaker #1
I love when the Joker is at the end being like, don't you think there'll be anybody coming out from Batman? People are like, you have to think about this real quick before Batman comes and does something.
- Speaker #0
Dude,
- Speaker #1
Mark Hamill crushed it. He killed it. It's his first appearance,
- Speaker #2
I think. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
as the Joker. Yeah. Actually, I think it was Christmas with the Joker.
- Speaker #2
oh maybe it was that's where jingle bells batman's it's an egg he's just so good at like capturing the like the the whimsical like childhood kind of like it yeah like just like crushes that um but still terrifying yeah yeah yeah like the voice you would read joker it's like it's like just same with kevin conroy like yeah that's why the moment in batman beyond is so earned because we've gotten to know this guy for so long and we understand how we can get to that moment yeah when
- Speaker #1
the orchards right right yeah with the drink yeah it was really jason todd but yes jason todd um yeah joker's like a freaking doll you know like he's so childlike but it's kind of creepy yeah like it's weird it's weird it's weird as an audience member to see him not in control yeah like like how everything sort of unraveled for him at the end of that episode yeah yeah it's so true wow that's such a good point you know like where where he had the cake and the plan and he had the glue and then when that's all gone you're just sort of, that's when you're really
- Speaker #2
like him in the dark night yeah right right when the boats aren't yeah exactly exactly and you see that it's such an unbelievable acting by heath ledger like a yeah you see in his face he doesn't even have to say it and you just hear batman saying like what what do you want to prove everyone is deep down as ugly as yeah yeah he knows that he's that he's wrong that he's wrong yeah it's a rough moment it's
- Speaker #1
a rough moment well for that character no no i know you sort of watch the joker like a hero you forget he's a villain because he's so interesting and you're like and you wanted to win. And then when he's literally cowering to not even Batman, but to just some guy named Don Watts, it's hilarious.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no, I know. Well, yeah, and then Joker sees him and he's like, oh, it looks like you've lost a couple pounds and some hair. Like, he can never give a full compliment either. Like, it's always a backhanded. Well,
- Speaker #2
what do you know? I can't eat and my hair is falling out because literally psychopath is trying. Has my ID.
- Speaker #0
Dude, yeah. And his license. He's calling him out on it. He's like, oh, yes. Address, height, weight, all the things. Blah, blah, blah. And then you look at the height and weight. Oh,
- Speaker #2
you're an organ donor.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I'm like, they don't have. From Hawaii? Muhammad? Yeah. Chopping at the.
- Speaker #2
Why the fuck would it be that or Muhammad? Would you just choose a normal ass name? Muhammad is the most common name on earth. We need a freaking book for once.
- Speaker #0
Oh, my God. But I was like, wait, they don't have weight licenses. That would be crazy. You have your height and your eye color. Right. But not your weight. And then they showed it. They said that our boy, Charlie, was 5'10 and 180 pounds. So he was a big guy.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's not too good.
- Speaker #0
Right? He's got the ratio. Yeah, he should have had him running longer. From him.
- Speaker #2
all right he's doing all right for himself like i see him and we're doing fine he's doing all right going on in his life it's done we'll give him we'll give you know charlie's having difficulty finding time to work out he's got a job he's a stand-up you
- Speaker #1
know sometimes it's not he's being stalked by a clown who sends him ideas for podcast episodes uh mr birnbaum uh or did you have any other uh episode did we cover that yeah i love that episode yeah that's a great one that's a really good one uh what was your episode next put the mr freeze vibe let's go heart of ice let's stay with the freeze heart of ice why'd you pick heart of ice i feel like this is the episode that where the show really kind of announced like hey we're
- Speaker #2
here like this is the shit because this is the one that won the emmy this is paul dini really saying like, hey, like, um. I'm pretty good at this. Because again, they took this character, Mr. Freeze, who was like, not even a B-list villain. This guy was that D-list villain. No one cared about Mr. Freeze. And they completely changed him. They introduced Nora, this idea that his wife was dying and he was trying to keep her alive. And this greedy industrialist, like... was like you can't you can't use my technology for this causes the accident that turns him into mr freeze like and that it's all about like he's got this righteous rage so like even though he's like what he's doing again is very wrong he's trying to
- Speaker #1
get to this industrialist and ruin his life and in doing so he'll murder a bunch of innocent people in this building he's kind of like the ends justify the means but you also understand his anger yeah as they do with every rogue intro in this series like like so when i get to the riddler i mean that's a big riddler that's that's a big thing with his with selena kyle's it's her crusade against the cruelty of animals with poison ivy it's them destroying the environment in gotham with harvey dent it's him uh trying to fight the mob and then him getting blown in half and him being kind of crooked like they do a very good job at showing you why these guys get out of jail like they probably rehabilitate criminals in this show more than they do in any other batman series like or the real world or the real world but like they always end up crazier back in because they have to because that's what sells the toys but um uh uh, hard of ice. to me uh i think would be that's sort of like the uh the the bane in the dark knight rises of mr freeze appearances like like that's that's that's his baseline that's what everybody knows him as now that now now he's like the that that's who he's that's who victor freeze is always going to be and and though there were i didn't there were no issues with victor freeze the way there were with Bane, but that's the intro. Enjoy that. What I say to that is, if you're upset about the sound design in a Christopher Nolan movie, then you haven't been watching a lot of Christopher fucking Nolan movies. That's all of his fucking movies. I'm sorry. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
He doesn't even use, like, CGI, really. No. He's just using freaking, like, fans with a little, like, tinsel on it.
- Speaker #1
He's a visionary for a reason, just like Paul. And he has that, like, oh, I'm good at this. Same way Paul Denis has the, I'm good at this. Bro,
- Speaker #2
the prestige?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. To do a run like he did and still keep doing. How many, Oppenheimer was a cinematic event. You know, the Odyssey.
- Speaker #2
The Odyssey is going to be amazing.
- Speaker #1
When that comes out, where he's shooting that. There's nothing that that guy can't do. But to your point of Heart of Ice, great episode. I love Heart of Ice. One of the best.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, no, I just, it was awesome. He was really introducing this again, this very sympathetic villain. Also, Alfred really gets to shine there. That's where Bruce is coming down with the cold. Yeah. And he's like, he goes, I got something for you. He goes, what is it? He goes, is it like a special medicine? He goes, the best kind to treat a cold, chicken soup. And that's what he uses to beat Mr. Freeze.
- Speaker #1
Yes, that's right. That's right.
- Speaker #0
That's cute.
- Speaker #2
Alfred, what am I supposed to do with this? It's delicious. I'm not going to be a villain anymore because this soup is so good. Maria, Maria, please start the soup company with me. I love you so much, Maya. Did you see what that son was doing on the White Lotus? He fucked his brother.
- Speaker #1
He was holding that back for 43 minutes.
- Speaker #2
It's like having a fart that late.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I was waiting for it to rip. You did it.
- Speaker #2
Oh, God. Now I can relax.
- Speaker #1
My next episode, I would say, is my favorite episode of all time. It's Almost Got Him.
- Speaker #2
That's too much.
- Speaker #1
Oh, is it? Oh, okay.
- Speaker #2
It's good. Oh, yeah, please, yeah.
- Speaker #0
It's comparing notes.
- Speaker #2
I think this is the best episode of the show.
- Speaker #1
I think it's the best episode as well, too.
- Speaker #0
Oh, no, I didn't. No,
- Speaker #1
thank God.
- Speaker #0
But I saw that Brent had a pen.
- Speaker #2
Okay, that's another Carmen Senya. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
yeah,
- Speaker #2
yeah, yeah. We need to store the explosion.
- Speaker #0
What in the world?
- Speaker #1
This one is starring Joker, Penguin, Two-Face, Poison Ivy, and Killer Croc, while they're at a poker table in Gotham. uh and they're five of the batman's deadliest enemies and they're at a game of cards taking a trip down memory lane and they're each taking personal recounts of how they almost succeeded in killing uh the dark knight poison ivy talks about a halloween trap involving boys and pumpkins two-face details a giant penny scheme i'm trying not to laugh because of keller crock two feet he just goes he looked at i'm just gonna get to it killer crock is like telling the story And he's like getting so close. And then he's like, and then I threw a rock at him. They all just the shot where they all just look at him. And then the Joker goes, anyways,
- Speaker #2
it was a big rock.
- Speaker #1
It was a big rock. Yes.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. As opposed to Harvey Dent's brilliant scheme of throwing a giant penny at him.
- Speaker #1
I threw a penny at him. The Penguin unleashed a whole bunch of killer birds in a death trap, and the Joker tells a tale of involving a deadly TV game show with electric chairs and Catwoman. But there's a twist where one of the villains at the table is not who they say they see, who they seem. Killer Croc is revealed to be Batman in disguise, and he infiltrated the game to find the whereabouts of Catwoman, who Joker kidnapped. Batman rescues her in a climactic warehouse. fight this is like catwoman harley uh harley quincy in there which is well just like uh like harley's the one who has catwoman tied up and she's like i gotta wait for the uh go ahead for mr j yeah that's true yeah like the blend of comedy and tension and and and this i think is why it's my favorite episode it's just so good and it's also so cool to be told from a villain's perspective and like all of them could be lying they all could be telling the truth you really don't know it's like what we've talked about in the killing joke um and it's Batman's mythos, mythos through the point of view of each of his villains, you know, they're all going to see him in a different light. Uh, and it's all as cool as rogues talking about it and,
- Speaker #2
and see how they interact with one another. Like see, yeah. Face interact with poison Ivy. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, I think the Joker had a great line where he's like, ladies first. And since there are none here, we'll let poison Ivy go.
- Speaker #0
Like. I was like you at the beginning of this episode. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
yeah, yeah, basically.
- Speaker #0
It was in the mind.
- Speaker #1
It was inspired by a Golden Age comic in Detective Comics 180 in 1952 called The Secret Lives of Batman Villains, which also featured rogues comparing their stories. The giant penny from this episode would go on to be the one that's in the Batcave at the time. The Joker's game show is modeled after the 1950s live television set with the with the cheesy theme music and like the merv griffin show yeah you know that's sort of what it's one of the few episodes where batman impersonates a villain rather than a hero which you know shows it's like one of his underlying uh skills master of disguise and catwoman's role in this adds that she's not really a villain in this show season three she kind of is really a villain she's always kind of serves that anti-hero role yeah and and that romantic tension shows in this episode how long how far he'll go to to protect her because he's sitting with the villains for a long time to make sure that she's kind of okay well she's the closest thing he's ever had to a love interest agreed yeah yeah yeah unless you count any of the robins we will not i wish i never met bruce wayne shadow of the bat which is the first appearance of Batgirl it's a two part episode with Barbara Gordon as Batgirl setting up her step into Gotham's vigilante world and it's when Commissioner Gordon gets arrested he is accused of turning his body camera off accused of accepting bribes from Rupert Thorne Rupert? Not Rupert, Rupert Thorne you got some dirty money I didn't take any money from Rupert I'm a straight cop I know who I am. I'm a straight cop. You'll never find me at a gay cop bar. I'm straight Rupert Thorne. Straight Rupert Gordon.
- Speaker #0
It's Rupert right there. It's not me.
- Speaker #1
Here's Rupert. If you breathe, can you hear him? oh yeah yeah breathing be careful not to choke oh yes three new episodes end all tonight it's the finale oh shit are you caught up i'm not oh i've been watching it but i've been but i'm loving it oh i got literally on the second episode i'm alive yeah i got three episodes left it's a big night oh shit oh sorry oh my god hurry up now you gotta hurry up i was watching that german show about sci-fi,
- Speaker #2
Dark.
- Speaker #1
Oh, yeah. That's Fernando. That's right. And then, yeah, anyway, I love Batgirl. Great introduction to Batgirl. Everyone thinks that Batgirl just joined the Bat family, but really it was to, Batman wouldn't show up because it would have looked weird if Gordon was guilty. So she was like, if you showed up and people saw, it was like a Joe Paterno thing.
- Speaker #0
It was the only time in history where showing up with a little girl was the good move.
- Speaker #1
Yes.
- Speaker #0
Important.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I thought the Joe Paterno thing was going to be the weird thing. Out of that sentence. Woo!
- Speaker #0
Don't worry, I got your back. Thank you,
- Speaker #1
baby. And then my favorite episode of the third series, and I think the most emotional one, one we've talked about at length, Old Wounds.
- Speaker #2
Love it.
- Speaker #1
I think the best episode, sort of like, I look at it as like the last episode of the series. But let's dive into it. What is Old Wounds? because we had a sudden replacement. No more Dick Grayson. Nightwing pops in at the end of one episode in an early season.
- Speaker #2
He pops in at the end of the second episode.
- Speaker #1
Right when he goes, there's three rules. Rule number one, never again. Rule number three, I make the rules. And then he's like, careful with that third one, kid. That's what I had a problem with. And you're like, why does Nightwing have a mullet?
- Speaker #2
And they do it so well when he enters the scene because you see the different reactions for people. Like, you see Bruce is surprised. Right. Like, happy, but also...
- Speaker #1
Because last he saw him, he got his ass knocked out.
- Speaker #2
Exactly. Kind of confused. Barbara's so excited.
- Speaker #1
Barbara's more than excited and Alfred's thrilled Alfred's like this is my son that's his boy yeah and it's a great one of Nightwing's I think why people love Nightwing so much is because he's such a He's there with you in the moment, you know, and if you come to him, he'll always be there. And he's not brooding like Batman. He's not. He doesn't use you like Batman by way of Peter Parker. Yeah. Yeah. And he's my wing. I don't think that there's there's anything you could really hate about him in this. And in this episode, it's Tim Drake sort of being frustrated with having to live, live with his parents, who is fucking Batman and is a militant, is training to be a child soldier. and You're learning what the fallout was between Nightwing and Batman, which was.
- Speaker #2
It's a great scene because the episode is it's told it's it's Dick talking to Tim, his successor, about what led to this fallout. And like he because Dick will never tell Tim what happened. Bruce will never tell him. And Dick finally lets him know what happened. And that's there was a night where they were stalking the Joker and the Joker got away. And Batman, Bruce really was showing no boundaries with Dick. Dick really, it was his college graduation. Batman, instead of attending, is, uh, Batman, instead of...
- Speaker #1
I'm sorry.
- Speaker #2
I need to be able to say this,
- Speaker #1
guys. No, I know. No, you could say it.
- Speaker #2
Okay.
- Speaker #1
After 30 minutes, you could say Dick. Okay.
- Speaker #0
Boundaries with Dick.
- Speaker #1
Dick is good after 30.
- Speaker #0
Yeah,
- Speaker #2
Dick is fantastic.
- Speaker #0
Someone say, Dick, ooh, it was me.
- Speaker #2
Yo, I waited. You think I was waiting long to do Schwarzenegger. This one's been building out for longer.
- Speaker #0
That's a smelly one.
- Speaker #1
Who's that guy in Mr. Miracle that I was like, this is just you.
- Speaker #2
A funky flashman? Which is just Sam Lee.
- Speaker #0
Gosh, yo, carbon copy.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, I know. But yes.
- Speaker #1
But this is told through narrating.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, Dick is the narrator. And for all we know, he's a little bit of an unreliable narrator. But like. But we also understand what Dick's coming from. He's 22 years old at the time. He's graduating from college.
- Speaker #1
He wants to- Which Bruce did not show up to.
- Speaker #2
Bruce did not show up to, and he just wants to spend the night with Barbara, and Bruce makes him go out, like skip his college graduation party to go after the Joker. And after all this, they end up stalking one of the Joker's henchmen to his home, and you see him there with his wife and with his kid, and Bruce starts, like as Batman, goes in and he- In front of the kid. In front of the kid and throws him against a wall and dick's like kid is shocked he sees the react and then he's like i'm out oh yeah he's just by himself to batman he goes not here and uh and batman's like the sooner he talks the sooner we leave yeah and dick's like i'm leaving that's not how we're doing yeah yeah and soon how we do business and they eventually find the joker and that's when barbara ends up to is working with with uh bruce because dick doesn't want to have anything to do with him and uh and Dick figures out that Barbara is Batgirl and he just is a livid,
- Speaker #1
livid that Bruce kept that from him.
- Speaker #2
So, so true. He's like, are you kidding me? Like, it's not enough that you're ruining my life. You're ruining hers. Yeah. And he's kind of taking away Barbara's agency there.
- Speaker #1
He is. And because again, why I wanted to mention the Batgirl episode was because it was her choice to suit up and to do this both for her dad and for Gotham and for, you know, this, she, her dad is the commissioner of the police. Meaning she's had to see him come home all the time, not knowing if he even would come home. And to your point, taking away her Regency, like this was her choice.
- Speaker #2
This was her choice, exactly. And she says that to him. She goes, this was my choice. And Dick goes, hey, you think it was your choice. He manipulated you. That's what he does. He manipulates people. And Bruce goes, I thought we had the same goals. And he goes, things change, man. And Bruce puts a hand on Dick's shoulder, almost just like a fatherly thing, like, hey. and And you realize it wasn't the Barbara thing that was the straw that broke the camel's back. No, it was the punch. It was with the kid.
- Speaker #1
Oh, the kid.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The punching of the kid. The punch.
- Speaker #1
Well, also, Batman let him punch him. He did. Straight up let him punch him. Well,
- Speaker #2
I think Batman knew he was kind of in the wrong for interrogating the guy in front of his family. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
because then he's the kid in the alley again, you know?
- Speaker #0
Take it on the chin.
- Speaker #2
And that's where the story ends. And Tim's like, and that's... that's it and he goes and you never made up again and dick's like why would i bruce would never change and that's when we get the great full circle moment over to you baby wait the what like how the episode ends which is which is that like They end up going into Wayne Enterprises, and they see the guy that, like, Batman interrogated in front of his family. Working for Wayne Enterprises.
- Speaker #1
Bruce got him a job.
- Speaker #2
Bruce got him a job, and the guy says to Nightwing and Robin, he goes, yeah. He goes, you know what? He goes, I was hanging out with the wrong people. He goes, Batman changed my life around. He got me. He kind of scared me straight. He goes, and then Bruce Wayne got me a job and always remembers my name.
- Speaker #1
and Would not have happened if Hattie not felt so guilty about losing Dick.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. And so the episode ends with the bat signal coming up. And then Robin turns to Dick. He goes, you coming? And then Dick goes, yeah. He goes, it's about time. Yeah. And Tim smiles. And the implication is that Dick makes up with Bruce then.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Make up
- Speaker #1
Dick. Make up Dick. I got this online.
- Speaker #2
Oh, my God.
- Speaker #1
$12. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
I can make that. That's pretty good.
- Speaker #2
I've seen that episode more than any other episode, I think.
- Speaker #1
Oh, me too. Yeah. She didn't even. Is she fitness? Yeah.
- Speaker #2
But that girl's the only one that fits in my bad way.
- Speaker #1
I wish I had my thing right now.
- Speaker #2
The thing fits perfectly in here.
- Speaker #1
Batman animated series. If you haven't watched it, it's on Max. Honestly, you could pick any five episodes on any. Any platform, any of the seasons, and you're in for a treat. And it will make you go back into reading comics again. From my Bat family to yours, thank you, true believers, for following us along. Oh, perfect timing, because we about to all die on our batteries. I've been Troy Bond.
- Speaker #2
I've been Brad Birnbaum.
- Speaker #0
I've been Slater Harrison.
- Speaker #1
And we are the Bat Fam.
