Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Hello and a very warm welcome to She Owns the Stage, the podcast inspiring and empowering women to take the stage. My name is Ana Gumbau, I am the founder of She Owns the Stage and I'm really excited that we are back with the podcast. We took a little bit of a break, personal reasons, but today was really, I think, the perfect occasion to come back. Because we are bringing with you a Halloween episode. So to kick off this episode, I would like to welcome our guest in today's Halloween special. And I'm delighted to be welcoming fellow Anna, a fellow journalist, fellow event moderator, creator. She also wears all the hats. Welcome, Anna Fota.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you very much for having me, Anna Gumbau. Very happy to be here.

• Speaker #0

  So we are Anna with double N and Anna with a single N. Yes, we are. We're going to talk about our names during the episode. But Anna, before we dive into today's topic, what can you tell us about yourself?

• Speaker #1

  Well, you gave me such a wonderful introduction already. I'm a journalist by training, and I also enjoy doing the occasional public speaking, moderation, as you said, giving... keynote speeches here and there. And for the past few years, I've enjoyed covering the contemporary art market in Brussels and writing all sorts of different cultural stories. So I kind of started in the EU bubble and then moved on to do culture. And I now write about all of that. And I organize events, which is very exciting. And I'm really happy to be here.

• Speaker #0

  Could you tell us about one time where you felt that you really owned the stage lately?

• Speaker #1

  I recently hosted an event that I, it was my concept that I then brought in front of different partners. It was a sort of community night that took place in Brussels. And when, at the beginning of the event, I held a little welcome speech telling everyone about my goal for the night, kind of inviting them into the space and sharing a bit about my journey and my hopes for the future with them. And I really felt a lot of ownership and a lot of power in being able to be in front of people and being honest about why I wanted to host a community night where everyone could feel welcome and could feel like they can connect with the art and really feel a sense of belonging and purpose. And so that was, I think it's taken. me a while together. I was one of those people that at first was maybe not very comfortable talking on stage, but I knew that it comes with practice. And then at some point, I don't know, there was just one event. It was maybe my fifth, maybe my 10th time moderating. But one time I was just on stage and I looked around and I realized I was not nervous anymore. It just, I realized I now own the stage. It's mine forever.

• Speaker #0

  Amazing. Oh, it's great when you get that feeling and you get to witness it and keep it and know, yeah, I can actually own this picture. I'm doing it. Amazing. So the topic of today's episode, because it's a Halloween special, I wanted to get spooky stories around mansplaining. Since you work a lot with the arts world and you are really deep into it, do you have any particular stories around? being mansplained in the arts world?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah, I do. I have, so I talk a lot to everyone wearing different hats in the art world. So I talk a lot to artists, to collectors, to historians, what have you. And I hear a little bit from everyone. And I was talking to an artist recently, a female artist who told me this. story that so artists work with galleries and once in a while they'll have a show at the gallery so you walk into the gallery and all the art on the walls will be belonging to this artist and you will know their name but not necessarily what they look like unless they're very well known and this artist told me that she was in the gallery one day herself there walking around and a visitor started. explaining what he saw in the art to her from a point of authority without realizing that she was the artist behind the work so he was mansplaining her own work to her oh dear with a sense of no no no I know better and obviously as happens with all mansplaining when she was trying to interrupt him to be like well I think I might know a thing or two here too he would just talk over her So, mansplaining, it happens in every corner of the world.

• Speaker #0

  I would pay to see the man's face after realizing that she was the author of the work.

• Speaker #1

  God, yeah. That would be a good moment. It's such a fun conclusion, I guess, because she could have been like, well, actually. It's my art,

• Speaker #0

  so suck on that. I read similar stories about female scientists who were explained their own theories by men who had studied those theories. Because a lot of times, I guess you quote in the scientific papers, you only have the last name plus the initial of someone's first name. So you wouldn't necessarily know, right?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and they would probably assume I guess I was a man. Indeed.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's like, have you read the theory of Gumbau and Fota? And you probably don't realize that there's two Annas, right?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah. And then it'll be like, oh, but surely it's your husband or something. And then you have to explain, oh, it's my own name. Thank you very much.

• Speaker #0

  That's actually me. I'm the author of the theory.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Right. So the reason why I wanted to do this episode is because recently one listener and a friend of mine messaged me to create an episode, to do an episode on mansplaining. She has something that she had found consistently in her work. She works in a rather male-dominated field. And she was like, and I would be great if you would address that on an episode. And that inspired me to collect some horror stories from the Brussels bubble, from the EU bubble and beyond. So I actually, I asked my network. I asked my network both on LinkedIn and on Instagram. And I got maybe like... 20 responses in just a few hours, especially the LinkedIn post completely blew up. And I had a lot of people contacted me in private or commenting on the post. So I brought some of the stories here with me. And the idea is that we read them out loud and have a laugh. Because I think we will probably relate to a lot of them. So Ana, can I maybe start by asking you, how would you womansplain?

• Speaker #1

  mansplaining to a man i oh i love this question i think to me the difference between the way women explain things and the way men explain things is i think women are more likely to react from a point of empathy whereas what happens a lot with men is that they'll be in a conversation. And act from the point of, I definitely know better than this person. And I think that's where, that's the source of mansplaining. You'll be having a conversation about even a topic that you, the woman, might be an expert in. And the men that you're speaking with will kind of assume that they know better. That's what mansplaining is. I think that it can be any topic in the world. That's what mansplaining is, I think. Because when... They will explain something to you that they should have realized by that point. You don't need explaining or you already know. So for instance, can I give you a personal example? Absolutely,

• Speaker #0

  go ahead.

• Speaker #1

  A few months ago, I was at a networking event for journalists in Brussels. And the questions that will come up a lot in Brussels is... What do you do for work? What topics do you cover? And where are you from? Because there's so many of us who are expats here. And I was telling this guy that I'm Romanian and we talked a bit about how I grew up there. And then I left about 10 years ago to move abroad and work abroad. And so we had established that I grew up in Romania. The first 20 years of my life were spent in Romania. And then he responded by telling me he's been to Romania a couple of times on vacation, which great. But then the conversation took a turn where he asked me how I feel about politics in Romania now. And instead of actually listening, he proceeded to then explain to me how I should feel about it. What's going on? I believe he was British, if we can be honest about it. So. I just say that to say that me being Romanian, him being someone who's visited Romania a couple of times, he felt it was in his right to explain my own country to me.

• Speaker #0

  And that's,

• Speaker #1

  that's mansplaining, I think.

• Speaker #0

  This is what I would say. It's a massive red flag. Like, come on. I love that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. It's this entitlement. And I love what a lot of times I see that my male colleagues and the men around me do, which is that they would want to ask. a question just so that they can bring their opinion to the table without you necessarily asking for their opinion.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's a great explanation of it. Yeah. Just their opinion trumps the rest of the conversation. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  which in reality... He probably won't care about your opinion. Even though he has, it was just an excuse, a pretext for him to bring his opinion.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah. It must happen with you a lot as a journalist who has a lot of experience and energy in your case. Do you have this happen a lot where you'll be talking to someone who knows that that's what you do and they'll still try to explain your job to you, basically?

• Speaker #0

  Well, so I have a funny story that I was thinking about on my way here. And. I was preparing to moderate a big event on transport sector. And so we had someone taking care of the organization of each one of the sessions. And one of the session leaders, he invited us to a preparatory call to prepare for the session, discuss the questions, the different points of view, the narrative and so on. He gave the floor to all the panelists, but didn't introduce me as the moderator. So I already had to interrupt him and say, well, actually, if you don't mind, I'm going to introduce myself.

• Speaker #1

  Can I just do the buzzer?

• Speaker #0

  Yes.

• Speaker #1

  No to that guy. Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  So then he proceeded for the next 10 minutes in explaining to me how I should moderate the session. So he explained to me what the role of the moderator is. And he even had three slides prepared. on the role of the moderator and then he was like yeah and I don't know if they if you have ever done that before and I was like well I'm a professional event moderator I may have you know only done like 150 events yeah it's the kind of thing I think I think I answered once sort of like yeah I only do this once per week you know so not very often not very frequently it's not like brushing your teeth that you do a few times per day but I've done it a few times and so he was like oh all right And then continued explaining the content of the session. And at some point was like, but Anna, I'm not sure how familiar are you with the kind of EU energy and climate policy, European Green Deal and so on. And I'm like, oh, well, you know, I mean, I've only been a journalist writing on these topics for five years, you know. He was like, oh, really? I didn't know. And I was like. How come you don't know? But it didn't come from a point like, how do you not know who I am? It was more coming from...

• Speaker #1

  Would you not research? Yeah, exactly. I mean,

• Speaker #0

  you should have done your research on your moderator who you're going to be working with. So that's...

• Speaker #1

  Or not assume that you didn't know what you were doing.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he was trying to test me like, I'm sure that you as a former journalist will have already a lot of questions to my panelists. I think it was one of my biggest horror stories that I can remember. I have a few stories with me and some of them are more perhaps like everyday life related. So not so much work related. And then there are those that are hardcore, you know, work related. So I wanted to start maybe with a few of the everyday life stories. And the first one is from a friend of mine and also listener to the podcast, Margot. So shout out to Margot de Meyer.

• Speaker #1

  Shout out to Margot.

• Speaker #0

  And she commented on my LinkedIn post saying, this is non-work related at all. But when I said at a restaurant in Italy that I would go for a wine that doesn't have added sulfites, if possible, as I'm slightly intolerant. The waiter went on for 10 minutes in front of the whole table about how all wines have sulfites naturally in them, which was not the point. She just asked a question. And on top of that, she was following sommelier courses.

• Speaker #1

  So another example of she knew what she was talking about, but the man assumed that.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, and especially the kind of thing that, she just asked a yes or no question. Do you have any wines that don't have any of these additives?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Not explain to me why all of them have this attitude. Exactly. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to do the buzzer or should I?

• Speaker #0

  Go for the buzzer.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Goodbye to that guy.

• Speaker #0

  Thanks. Thanks to the buzzer, by the way, is a special prompt provided by us, by our podcast studio. So the podcast studio, which is our two guys, Gem and Mergim doing an amazing job. Just to clarify also that we don't hate men. We love men. Especially they. The right men. Exactly. Because they don't explain what a podcast is to me. And that's something to be appreciated. It doesn't happen so often.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you to them.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So which story do you have now, Anna?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, okay. Let's see. I went on a date with a lawyer. That's already a red flag.

• Speaker #0

  That's already a red flag if he's a lawyer.

• Speaker #1

  I went on a date with a lawyer. Maybe three years into the job. He tried explaining to me in simple words what a partner in a law firm is. And that we don't need simple words. Thank you. We're very smart. And that he wants to become one one day. I work at a law school, used to work at a law firm, and just happened to have a PhD in management, which he knew all about prior to launching into the explanation.

• Speaker #0

  No freaking way.

• Speaker #1

  That's, yes. Because this...

• Speaker #0

  That's a walking red flag.

• Speaker #1

  This sounds like what if you were to look up mansplaining in a dictionary, you would find this explanation.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, God.

• Speaker #0

  The audacity.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, he tried explaining to me in simple words what a partner in a law firm is, knowing that she already was well-versed in the field of law. Exactly,

• Speaker #0

  exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Plus this guy.

• Speaker #0

  She probably had more credentials than him even.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, true. The audacity.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Can I think about some dating stories, like where I've been mansplained? Many times, probably.

• Speaker #1

  I think it just happens so... often that we these stories that we do remember about mansplaining are the particularly audacious ones and then there's all of the I think smaller increments of that that happen throughout a relationship or throughout a general relationship yeah one of my exes was a walking trivia and like he would just like suddenly like drop random facts like here and there and

• Speaker #0

  sometimes he would be sort of like, but did you know that And I would be just like, yeah, I mean, I literally talked to you about it, kind of thing. I guess it's the kind of things that you want to do to impress a woman, at least if we're talking about straight relationships. But it doesn't impress us much.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. You know,

• Speaker #0

  especially when we are well-educated women.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. I think that's also a good point that it comes with, it depends on the intention a lot of the time. because the mansplaining does... tend to come from a point of let me show you that I'm better than you, that I'm smarter than you. And so when you're just trying to share information, it does not sound like mansplaining. It's just, let me tell you this interesting fact that I know, but let me explain your own job to you. That's men's fighting.

• Speaker #0

  It's like in the Barbie movie, the here, let me show you moment where all the cans were showing the Barbies like how the Barbies were letting themselves were letting the men do their jobs to feel to make them feel feel important. And there was this collective here. Let me show you moment. It's always been ingrained in my in my mind. Sorry for those of you who haven't watched Barbie yet. If you haven't watched Barbie, what are you doing?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So I have another one. A man once kindly explained to me that I had misspelled my husband's name because John should be written with an H. So J-O-H-N. Little did he know that I'm not married to a John at all, but to a Jonathan.

• Speaker #1

  Let me do the buzzer.

• Speaker #0

  Please.

• Speaker #1

  This one. The idea of... Hearing that and assuming no, she definitely misspelled her husband's name as opposed to maybe she knows what she's doing.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I mean, she's signed documents, you know, documents most likely. So yeah,

• Speaker #1

  like presumably she's seen this name spelled out once or twice before.

• Speaker #0

  I have a burning question. Have you ever had your own name mansplained?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yes. Because... Yes, it's true. Because as an Ana who spells her name with one N, it has been assumed only by men before that I misspelled my name in communication and they were spelling it right with two Ns.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, so people think that you are a double N, Ana.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. And they think I'm being dumb by misspelling it. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  because a lot of times I get the same, but people thinking that I'm single N, Ana. All right.

• Speaker #1

  Really? Okay, so the other way around.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's also because Ana in Spanish is usually spelled with one N. So I get it a lot of times. And I got it once from a dude who said like, oh, but Ana, your name should be with one N, right? He was consistently spelling it with single N. He would be like, yeah, it should be spelled with one N, right? Because you're Spanish. And I'm like, well, my first name is Catalan. And in Catalan, it's double N. Oh. He was completely shocked.

• Speaker #1

  And then he was like, no, no, no, let me explain Catalan independence to you.

• Speaker #0

  He would be, I've also got on Catalan independence explained. But then he would go like, oh, but then is Catalan, are Catalan and Spanish really different languages? Are you sure? You know, looking at me with this kind of face, like, are you sure about that? And I would be like. But, you know, I'm only bilingual, fully bilingual in both languages. But I don't know, man. I don't know if they're different or not. I cannot really tell you. Have you ever also been told how your name can be read the same way forwards and backwards?

• Speaker #1

  I don't think that one has happened to me.

• Speaker #0

  I got it a couple of times, including from one of my exes, which, I mean... says a lot would be like and I'm gonna look at the camera for it because it really seems like you know it's this kind of thing that it's almost it's so theatrical so it would be like Anna don't you know that your name is a palindrome meaning that it can be read the same way forwards and backwards you know like a little bit with this kind of like flirting and then they look very proud of themselves like I taught her something new yeah And this is also double mansplaining. You're not only mansplaining my name, but you're also mansplaining me what a palindrome is. Palindrome, right. You can explain to me. You can correct me on how is it pronounced. That's not an unsplaining. I correct with love.

• Speaker #1

  An unsplaining.

• Speaker #0

  But I would look at him and think like, no, I've only had this name for 33 years. And I had never noticed.

• Speaker #1

  I'm like, no kidding. Yeah, it never occurred to me. You know what just popped into my head? When our beloved Elon Musk had a baby with, I forgot what her name was, that singer, I think Grimes is her name.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And the baby had that weird name where it's an X and then a whole bunch of mumbo jumbo. The mother of the child wrote on what was still Twitter at the time and explained the name. And then he reposted that tweet saying, well, actually, it means something else. So he mansplained the name of their own child to the mother. He well-actualized the mother of his child.

• Speaker #0

  And how would he, why would he do that? No, I mean, Ryan's honestly, well done.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That man is a freaking red flag that can be seen from Mars. Yeah. So I would say now let's move on to the work related anecdotes because I have a few, a few spooky stories from what we've already discussed.

• Speaker #1

  It has been very spooky. All right.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. The first one being asked by my middle superior to hold a dialogue style Q&A session during a webinar. Then being scolded for holding a dialogue-style Q&A session. And for the cherry on top being that at least I looked good on the camera. The audacity. L'audacity.

• Speaker #1

  No, no, no, no, no. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  no way. Yeah, at least I looked good on camera.

• Speaker #1

  But what is at least?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean,

• Speaker #1

  because it sounds like she was doing her literal job.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. She did exactly what she was asked to do.

• Speaker #1

  And it was still not good.

• Speaker #0

  I don't know. I don't know. It's just this kind of things where I think or I don't know, maybe this male superior didn't understand what he wanted. Or

• Speaker #1

  I love it when they think we can read their minds. That's also fun. We agree on something and then it happens. And then at the end they say, oh, but. I expected it to be a little different and then you can only think to yourself, well, I wish I'd known that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I'm referring to the terms that we had agreed.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, please consult the literal emails that we exchange on this and you will see it clearly written there.

• Speaker #0

  Male superiors, am I right? I think, honestly, I think I've been quite lucky with the superiors that I've had at my... at my job, I have to admit. Like, I cannot think about, like, any particular red flags. I think the men that I've worked with have been very... Oh, wait, for the exception of one. Oh, gosh! Oh, I have a story! I have a story. No, bring it on. I mean, so, as I said, like, normally I've been very lucky with the male colleagues I've had, especially the male superiors I've had in my life. I can count some of them as my mentors, people that have took me under their wing, that have genuinely supported me. But there was this one man, I was working in London, I was working on energy-related topics, and the area I was covering was Europe, the kind of all like Europe, Middle East. Middle East and Africa. And I had to write an article about, I think it was the Turkish energy, the energy sector of Turkey. And I had the data in front of me, like literally official minute by minute data that was backing what I was saying. And this colleague of mine would say, Anna, where are you getting this information from? And I would point them to the official source. And what is this data telling you? And I would say what the data would be telling. And he would be like, are you sure? And would always make this tone of voice. Are you sure? And I would be, well, yes. Because my initial, because my sources that I have in this sector, they have told me otherwise. And I was like, well, I have the official data in front of me. I don't think that's right. No.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  I'll be like, oh, well, then why are you not writing the article? So, yeah, it's this one character. I have another story, but we can also leave it for later. But it was infuriating because every single time that he asked me about the area I was an expert about, then I would always be met with an, are you sure? And pointing out to a random source that. you know, rather unnamed anonymous source for data that, I mean, it's clear, it's visible. It was about like gas transmission flows between one country to another one. Like there's no other.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, but no doubt this anonymous source would know better than you. Yeah. I had an editor, well, maybe I won't say which publication, but at one of my previous jobs who who would explain my own story ideas back to me every single time. I would... We would have meetings, I would pitch, he would let me speak maybe a few sentences, and then he would start monologuing over me and explaining my own story idea, including the angles that I had suggested and everything back to me as if it was occurring to him in real time.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, no.

• Speaker #1

  I hope he's well. Yes.

• Speaker #0

  You can also do it if you want out of therapy.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. He deserves a double buzz.

• Speaker #0

  It's cathartic, isn't it? I love this buzzer.

• Speaker #1

  I love it too. I also love doing this kind of the office shot into the camera and being like, that guy.

• Speaker #0

  Oh gosh, yes. I wish him well.

• Speaker #1

  I wish him well.

• Speaker #0

  So there was someone who sent two stories and one of them, she says, I was also in a job where it became a habit for men and women intervening after me in meetings to start by saying, operationally this means as though whenever I opened my mouth I needed an interpreter so basically yeah just paraphrasing what uh what she had to say in a in some other in some other way unfortunately we all know that feeling all too well I think I think so I feel for her yeah I had uh from the same the same colleague I was I was telling you about um Mwah. I remember like also these ones where we were talking again, like it was, it was something related to energy. And there was this moment where he asked me something about, you know, like, how is it possible that, you know, the European Union's economy is still growing, but then their greenhouse gas emissions are being reduced? I don't know exactly how he phrased it, but it was a little bit this kind of like growth. but by reducing energy usage. So yeah, the energy usage was being reduced, but then the economy was still being productive and was still growing. And I was like, well, one of the, I mean, I guess that one of the reasons will be energy efficiency. And he would be like, energy efficiency? What's energy efficiency? And I was like, you're an energy expert. He was an oil and gas expert, which I guess explains a lot. But I was like. How do you not know what energy efficiency is? Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And he was like, you know, once again, are you sure?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And then he would ask my boss to say like, hey, I've seen this trend. Why is it happening? And my boss would say, energy efficiency, most likely. And he would be like, oh, well, yeah, all right. Makes sense. God, anyway. Again, I hope he's doing well.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I blocked him on LinkedIn, but I still hope he's doing well.

• Speaker #0

  I once did an internship as a journalist and was responsible for collecting quotes from some footballers. When I started, an old journalist I had never seen before, who didn't even work for the same radio station as me, this is going well so far, came over, grabbed my microphone and said, I can do this for you. A thousand times. I told him that I could definitely do it myself since it was my job. He looked me up and down saying, yeah, sure, girl, if you think so. That's horrendous. Even as an intern, I mean, to have a modicum of respect towards another human being is one thing.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, in terms of undermining the other person's professionalism, no matter their age, no matter whether they're interns or not.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  I just don't do that.

• Speaker #0

  One could argue, just show respect for your fellow human beings, your colleagues, your...

• Speaker #1

  Exactly, exactly. Gosh. Oh, that's horrible. I'm sorry for her. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And they always, I love how they tend to give themselves away too, because they'll throw a girl in there or something of that effect. And they'll say, hey, yeah, sure, girl, if you think so.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and I'm not sure if it's also because it was a football sort of related game or something sports related that, you know, because we don't know sports or we don't know what an offside is. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  we don't know what it's all about. Exactly. Explain football to me. Yeah. So the ball goes where?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, dear. Yeah, so the next story that I have is very EU related, like very EU specific.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I'll just bring it back home.

• Speaker #1

  So this person was in a high-level conversation with someone from the EIT. She tells him that we are in discussion with the EIF about something. And the guy says, I think you mean the EIC. To which she responds, I know, we also work with the EIC, but I'm talking about the IEIF. And the guy says, I still think that you mean the EIC. And then she says, I left him there. What do EIT and EIF and EIC mean? I probably could know from top of my head or probably guess, but it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter.

• Speaker #0

  The point is he knew best. He knew better and she should have known.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly, exactly. I mean, she said that it was the EIF and the guy, of course, he insisted that it's the EIC. So if it's the EIC, it may be the EIC. And this is why, yes, this is why Brussels bubble, please ditch the acronyms.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. So that the men can find something else to correct us on.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Are you talking to the Council of Europe or the Council of the European Union? Oh, dear.

• Speaker #0

  All right. Let's see the other example I have here. I work at Period Pill. We develop... a novel innovative drug candidate for premenstrual dysphoric disorder, a debilitating chronic disease with severe spin and monthly returning suicidal thoughts. Very important. I'm glad to hear this because there's not nearly enough out there for what is a very common occurrence, these heavy menstrual pains. All right. A reputable male investor told me prescribing drugs for a little bit of a headache and mood swings. Is, of course, never going to happen.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, no.

• Speaker #0

  I feel like, yeah, we should just buzz it for 10 minutes.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, absolutely.

• Speaker #0

  That's horrible. That's absolutely inhumane. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  yeah, yeah, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  A little bit of a headache.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. First of all, how do you, what do you know? Yeah, what do you know? What do you know?

• Speaker #0

  Are you sure it's a headache? I, oh, I hate this so much. I'm really, I did not know about period pill. Now I want to look it up. I feel like we genuinely don't have enough. medicine to use for period pains when it's such an obviously a very common occurrence in the world at large yeah and the audacity of men to comment on women's health yeah now we know why there's no more there's not more research on this because they always say well for just a headache yeah i wish i had only a little bit of a headache yeah once a month i really that's true i would take a headache i would take having a cold I would take anything else over the sheer painful atrocity of

• Speaker #1

  PMS. I would throw all the cards away.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Because this one's horrendous. You know, actually, I was once mansplained anxiety.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I was telling someone about, you know, I was having an anxiety attack on the moment. And, like, I was telling him about how I was feeling. and he would be like, oh, but... But no, but this is not how anxiety usually feels. Anxiety feels this other way. And yeah, it's not about this and the sensations in the body. Like it's about this kind of thoughts and how you feel. And I just felt like, are you explaining to me what my anxiety feels like? While I'm having anxiety. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  well, it's literally happening to me. Exactly. You want to explain to me what's happening?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jesus. Yeah, I was thinking, I don't have particularly women's health stories, but the anxiety one just came to my mind. And I'm like, gosh, being just mansplained my own symptoms.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's horrible. I'm sorry. And the worst part about it is that instead of choosing to be any kind of helpful, or empathetic in that moment, he chose none of those things, but instead chose to explain what was happening to you. Like he just said, I'm so sorry. Is there anything you need? What a concept.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Yeah. It's someone that I went on a couple of dates with, but as I, as I often say,

• Speaker #0

  that makes it so much worse.

• Speaker #1

  But listen, as I always say, the trash took itself out. Because we never got to see each other again after this.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Warmest regards to him.

• Speaker #1

  Gosh.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, Jesus.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I hope he never experienced the kind of anxiety I felt while I was around him. Like, just leave it like that. So I have a couple more stories. The three of them are from the same person. Yeah. One of the female colleagues I've had in the male-dominated energy and sustainability. sectors, a lot of stories for her to tell. The first one she said, during a large event organized by my trade association, I was delivering an opening keynote. Important. Delivering an opening keynote is big stuff. 300 people in the room. A gentleman stands up, interrupts the speech and yells, person's name. You should have used a different color in your slide. I cannot see. And also, the graphic should be circular.

• Speaker #0

  In the middle of her speech?

• Speaker #1

  I know. The audacity. Gosh. That must be so embarrassing. How do you react? Yeah. How do you even react to that? No, I mean, honestly, like, I really feel for her. Because that's horrible.

• Speaker #0

  This is why I feel your work with She Owns the Sage is so important. Because any woman who... does public speaking, moderation, keynote, speech giving, all sorts of things will inevitably at some point be put in an awkward position by a man who will not will think he needs to say what he needs to say in that moment. And exactly you need to have you need to know that it's going to come and you need to realize I think in the moment that it's not you you're doing a good job. It's just the audacity of that guy, for instance.

• Speaker #1

  Indeed, indeed. I mean, we can go a bit deeper into the tips later, but I think it's also this kind of thing that it's like, I mean, it's not on us. I mean, the system has to change and the structural biases and the entire structures that we live in that are, you know, patriarchal. We live in a misogynistic system and I mean, we've been always been told to change and There's only so much that we can do to change. I mean, we shouldn't change. It's the system that should change.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  There's only so much that we have under our control. And this is something that I always say, right? So I would say, I think the important part here is really knowing how to stand your ground when that happens. Because, I mean, if that happens, there's something that is outside your control, right? I mean, yeah, we cannot change. Men are not going to change just like that, unfortunately, although they should. but we can Have the tools to be able to respond to it in a way that feels grounded and feels like, you know, we're standing our ground. Because in one of my notes, I've noted down someone's comment in which she said that actually sometimes it's not about explaining. So mansplaining is not so much sometimes about explaining, but more about marking territory. This is my domain. This is my knowledge. And this is my territory. Yeah, very well said.

• Speaker #0

  It's about asserting dominance by any means necessary.

• Speaker #1

  Indeed, indeed. So when that happens, then how can you be sure that you stand your ground, that you don't let others overstep what is your territory? Yeah. I would say this is really the key to it, right?

• Speaker #0

  That's true. Yeah, that's a very good explanation. I like that throughout the course of this discussion, we've come up with a few good definitions for this, I think, or knowing. how to spot it, how to spot mansplaining. But I think you're right. I think realizing that the system is unfair, is powerful in itself, is then you realize that the game is more difficult for you through no fault of your own. It's just kind of stacked against you. And then at least you have the information to know to fight back and move forward.

• Speaker #1

  Indeed. So how about you, Ana? How do you think we could react or what is something that you think we could do to counter this situation? How do you personally react to it?

• Speaker #0

  uh it's i think it's it's really hard to keep your composure in the moment i think it's extremely important to keep your composure but it's extremely hard because it's so infuriating when something like this happens but i will say at this going to be depressing more than anything. But I think the most important thing to consider is the in the moment is, is it worth responding? Is there any chance that something good could come out of my responding? Or should I try to, to like, what is the best outcome of this for me? Because as we all know, it's very easy to be labeled difficult to work with. And That's what makes these situations so infuriating is that if then you try to explain to the man that he has no right to be acting all superior towards you, he will automatically feel like you are being unreasonable. Exactly. And that makes it difficult. So to be honest, it's I always try to take a step back, compose myself internally. and try to answer in a way where not letting them off the hook completely, but also not strangling them, which is what I want to do a lot of the times, just kind of saying, trying to. And then sometimes, like in the example that I was mentioning before with the guy trying to explain my own country to me, sometimes if you can, I would just extract myself from the situation because in that moment, I just.

• Speaker #1

  literally left the conversation and moved to a different table definitely never talked to that guy again of course of course yeah and I really like what you said that at the end of the day is about responding and not reacting because indeed let's say if we just like get all like fired up and uh and we insist and we get more like you know infighting mood yeah so to say it uh it Yeah, it's never to anyone's benefit. I would rather, you know, respond in a grounded, calmer manner. You know, this is the way I see it, or this is proven by my years of expertise, but not engage further.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  At the end of the day, I feel that, and this is a similar story that I got as well, that time puts people in their place. You know, the same woman. From the previous story about the PowerPoint slides, she told me about another story in which she presented a technical issue on one of the directives and someone who didn't read the proposal explained to her how that was not possible and that we shouldn't lobby to change this. And all the men in the room were convinced. And she then says that they were wrong. and came back to the topic two months later when it was obviously too late to do anything. So it was a bit of a told you so moment. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  I think that's true. Time does prove you right a lot. Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. I think so. You know, sometimes I use a lot of sense of humor when that happens. Yeah. When someone tells me, when someone asks me, you know, have you have you ever actually moderated before? And I would be like, well, yeah, you know, like I only do it like once per week, something like that. You know, I mean, it's not so often like brushing your teeth and this kind of things. But listen, I mean, I do it every now and then. Yeah, you know, or, you know, just about 200 events. So not so often or so not that many times, you know. And, you know, like it's a way to bring a bit of a sense of humor to it and make them realize how stupid their comment was.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I feel like you have some good one-liners to shut them down.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Or like even transform their statement to a question. So for instance, yeah. Ah, so are Catalan and Spanish the same language? And then for instance, I could be like, I don't know, are they or are they not? So that they realize what a stupid statement and stupid question and explanation they have just made.

• Speaker #0

  Would that they could.

• Speaker #1

  That's great. Because also something I'm curious about, and I think it would be a nice way to wrap it up is because, as I was saying, you know, we tend to focus so much on how women can change and how women can address the situations. But in the case that some men would be listening, and I mean, to be honest, I mean, the pronouns of this podcast are she, her. So I don't think there's that many men listening other than, again, Gemma and Mergim, who are going to be editing. this episode, our guys from the podcast studio. But what are some ways or what are some things that men can do differently to prevent them from mansplaining?

• Speaker #0

  That's a great question. I think maybe exactly what we were talking about before of the how do you respond? How do you react? I think what women do a lot more than men, from what I've noticed, is that we consider a situation, we maybe pay a bit more attention, we're a bit more active. And I think if some of these men in these mansplaining horror stories that we've gotten, if they would stop for a moment and think to themselves, should I second guess this person's expertise? Or should I trust that they know what they're talking about? And then maybe some of them, the time they'll find that the person does know what they're talking about, and the mansplaining is not needed.

• Speaker #1

  I think so. I think so. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's about reading the room.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And again, like understanding a little bit. I mean, I think reading the room is basic empathy. It's basic human skills, or they should be at least. But what did I mean to say? But at least, you know, do so mindfully if you want to or feel that you have to explain it to someone. Because I do have... a positive dating story example about that. I was once on a, I think it was my first or second date with someone and we were at a bar and he really wanted to play pool. There was the pool table there and he was like, I would really feel like playing. And I sucked at it. I never really played in my life. But I was like, you know, I mean, okay, let's just give it a try. And I mean, of course, like when it was a time to hit the ball, like I completely sucked at it and I didn't know how to do it. And he asked me at some point, like, Ana, Do you want me to explain it to you? And I thought, oh, actually, I mean, that's refreshing. I mean, you know, like it would have been very easy for him to go and say, you know, hey, yeah, just say here, let me, you know, again, like Barbie, you know, here, let me show you. Without him knowing whether I actually wanted advice or not. And he was like, actually, would you like me to give you some advice on that? And I was actually like, oh. Someone asked me whether I want an explanation or not.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Good. Nice. Refreshing.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Exactly. So I'm not sure to which extent it can be applied to some.

• Speaker #0

  But I think it's exactly that. Yeah. To just not, don't operate from the default setting of this woman definitely needs my help in life. You know? Exactly. Exactly. One question whether she would benefit from this explanation. or not. Yeah, I think that's what's missing.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I mean, I think in that case, it was crystal clear that he was much more, yeah, and he was much more skilled than me. Whereas, yeah, I don't know if I'm working consistently on the energy efficiency directive, and the man next to me doesn't, and he tries to explain to me something about the energy efficiency directive, I would be like,

• Speaker #0

  yeah,

• Speaker #1

  maybe that's not so understanding a little bit, you know, exactly. So the... The level of knowledge that the other person has, if it's obvious that the person doesn't know, then sure, it makes sense to ask. But if you see that the person has actual knowledge on the subject and is actually skilled and experienced, maybe not.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Again, I think it's more of a matter of empathy than anything else, I would say.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's true. And I do like that story. I think he reacted very well in that regard by asking you rather than assuming. And it was true that it was a situation where you might have needed a bit of help. So it's nice to end all this on a positive story.

• Speaker #1

  I think so. I think so. And, you know, for anyone in the audience, if you have any other tips on either countering mansplaining or, you know, advice on what men could do better instead of falling into mansplaining, I think that would be something very useful to discuss in further episodes. But let me end by thanking Anna for I think what's been a great episode and a super fun conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much for having joined us.

• Speaker #0

  I had a great time. And I feel for all of these women.

• Speaker #1

  God, yeah. Yeah. And these are only a handful of the many, many horror stories I got. My DMs were blowing up on both social media platforms and we could have gone on for ages. So I'm sure that we're going to have more occasions to talk about mansplaining. And thank you very much for everyone who has tuned in and listened. Thank you very much to everyone who has shared their stories with me. It meant a lot. Some of them were actually quite vulnerable. So I do appreciate also the trust as well. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast in YouTube and Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Don't forget also to rate it with their five stars or give it a thumbs up or all these kind of things that help enormously. to me to get the podcast found by like-minded women. And I'll see you in the next episode. Nice. Hey.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. That was so fun. I'm glad you had that. I love it.