Transcription

• Speaker #0

  I am convinced that if you build people first, the profits come. Do I have the analytics and the statistics for that? No, I'm not that kind of person. But I've seen it in the smaller contractors that I've worked for. They built me and they put me first and they trained the heck out of me and they got major returns.

• Speaker #1

  Hello and welcome to the Skilled AF Podcast. a podcast elevating the voices that are shifting the face and future of the skilled trades. I'm your host, Amanda Lucchetti, founder of The Skilled Project, a platform shaping how skilled trades and construction careers are seen, accessed, and experienced. You can learn more at theskilledproject.com. Today's guest is Devin Havanar, a journeyman union carpenter, data for, and founder of Bad Leader. a company helping tradespeople become who they were created to be. In this episode, we get into his path to earning his journeyman ticket at 22, the realities of leadership on a construction site, why he started Bad Leader, and the framework he's built on one conviction. If you build people first, the profits will follow. Wherever you're at in the world, we hope you enjoy. Thanks for joining the show, Devin.

• Speaker #0

  Well, thank you so much for having me.

• Speaker #1

  I want to talk about the fact that you started in the trades so young. You're one of the youngest people within Canada to journey out as a carpenter. Can you take me back to that kid version of yourself and that experience moving into an apprenticeship and then out?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, sure. I remember in grade 12, I had to figure out what I was going to do. I kind of just decided, you know, I'm going to do carpentry. And I remember my dad was like, carpentry? Really? Like, you've never really showed that much of an interest in that. And I was like, well, I'm going to do it. That's kind of what I did. And I remember it was the week before I turned 18. My first job was framing a deck with the contractor I was working for at the time. And I was just so excited. It was my first real summer job outside of like working at a greenhouse or fast food and stuff like that. So I was really excited to get into trade.

• Speaker #1

  And I Did you have any family experience exposure?

• Speaker #0

  No. Well, we built bike jumps, you know, helped build chicken coops and stuff at my house and stuff. My dad taught me like the basics of doing some trim. You just know renovation kind of stuff. But I didn't really have that much of exposure through family members or anything like that. It was just like, you know, I think I'm going to do carpentry. And I couldn't find anybody that changed my mind. So that's where I went into.

• Speaker #1

  Got it. And so then... I mean, high school, what was that experience then? Were you able to take any classes in high school? Did you hate high school? Were you like, get me out of here now?

• Speaker #0

  I liked the social aspect of high school. That's probably why. I had an email in high school and it was MrTalkalot at Hotmail.com. So if that tells you anything, I did talk a lot. Every report card was disruptive in class and disrupts others as well. But I did go to a private high school. So my parents put a huge emphasis on my education. Hopefully I didn't let them down being a carpenter, but it all worked out now. But I do remember like a little bit of just a sense through the graduation process. Nobody said it, but I just felt like, oh man, I'm kind of like taking a second class career. Everybody was, you know, moving into, I hate to say smart people things, but definitely the white collar trail, the traditional white collar, mostly post-secondary university degrees and whatnot. But I was just most excited to start working and making money. That's what I was really focused in on.

• Speaker #1

  And So then you land on carpentry, you get into an apprenticeship. What was your experience like going into the union? You went into the union initially, right?

• Speaker #0

  I did not start in the union initially.

• Speaker #1

  So let's talk about that.

• Speaker #0

  What actually happened to get into carpentry, I just phoned. There was like through the school community, a local contractor. He was like him and usually one other person, maybe his dad or a young apprentice. So I asked if he would be willing to take me on. And he did. And I worked there for several months. And then winter layoff came. I was like, winter layoff? I need to be working. So I picked up a job changing tires and working at an auto mechanic dealership. And somebody I met there, he pointed me in the direction of another contractor that was actually looking for people coming out of the winter months. So I was really hesitant, but I'm very glad I made the leap to that contractor. He has been instrumental and probably a big reason why bad leader even exists. But I made the hop over to him and I worked. probably two years. with his company. And then they were an interesting company because they had ability to work non-union and union, kind of like a hybrid system. So if we were working on residential projects, we would not abide by the union agreements. But if we worked on the union projects and the commercial sector, we would abide by the union agreements. So it really gave me a taste of both worlds. And I'm super thankful for that. So I probably got in the union, I think when I was 20. So I had about two, two and a half years in the residential sector before I... I joined into the union and the commercial sector.

• Speaker #1

  What was the biggest jump for that to go from residential to commercial?

• Speaker #0

  I would say the scale, the size. The first commercial project I was on was called West Block. And that's kind of like Canada's comparison to the White House, almost. So this project, they had a thousand workers on it, scaffold levels up to the 40s. I remember my first day, I'll never forget it, walking through the scaffolding and thinking like I was in a World War II trench. That's just the kind of feeling I had. It was dark, muddy, dingy, but I think the scale was the biggest adjustment for me coming from doing decks and fences and renovations, working with the client, and then moving into a site with a thousand plus people. You never had access to the client. You couldn't really know that kind of side of the job, guys

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, there's those layers, those personal layers are somewhat removed. And so you're like to the client or like direct feedback.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. It was definitely a change of pace and a change of scenery. And just the scale, like you wouldn't see big tower cranes at a renovation. You only really see those big kind of different technologies that are coming in. You will see that mostly in commercial, not so much in the residential sector.

• Speaker #1

  Got it. And so then obviously you're super young in this trade. you're 20, right? Like joining a union. When did you get into a leadership role or move into a leadership role?

• Speaker #0

  I actually started supervising when I turned 25. So that was an interesting transition. But when I got my ticket, I was just, okay, like I've made it. And I was asking people around me, like, what's next? Like I'm 20 years old. This can't be it. There's got to be more. It's like, well, you can kind of, you know, open up your own company or you can try to move into a supervisory position or you can go like the superintendent route. There's many different options. But other people were like, this is it. You're a journeyman now and that's it. And I was I wasn't really satisfied with that answer. So at the time, I kind of took a different route with my family and my wife. And we focused a lot in on building a home and building our own house together and renovating a couple houses. So my career kind of took a backstep to those things. But then when that was all completed, I really felt a sense that I needed to push myself in my career development. So that's kind of what I did.

• Speaker #1

  I want to obviously jump into leadership and talk about that. You've probably been on crews that have had absolute shit leadership, like coming in and seeing like what happens when that happens. And then been on crews that have really good leadership. And I mean, that might've been the turning point for you, right, to be like, well, I want to be somebody that leads people. What is that difference between a crew that's producing as a means to produce versus like a crew that's actually thriving?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, there's so many different ways you can go. But one that I've just been thinking about and chewing on a lot lately is the leadership word. It's like it should be interchanged with like the service word, like you're serving. I truly believe the best leaders are just serving the people that they are in charge of or supervising. try to remove obstacles all day for my crews. How can I help? How can I serve you? How can I build you up? And I think the worst crews that I've been on, there's always seems to be like an ego or a challenging dynamic. Feedback is not welcome. People are trying to go against each other. It's good to have healthy competition, but there's definitely unhealthy competition. Like who can I backstab or try to get ahead? And I've always just tried to play the long game. I think my parents always just instilled that in me, like, you just got to play the long game. So that's always been in my head. That would be the biggest one. It's like egos and pride really get in the way of having a successful team. When everybody can buy in and they understand their role in that team, you can get so much further faster.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I'm sure communication and stuff all plays into that too. You're talking about the role, communicating, well, what is my role in this job? Figuring that out. I've met with a few people within this industry and it's like service-based leadership is what I believe that's called when you're the service-based leadership serving people. A lot of people have adopted it from the military, at least within the United States. That's a big thing in the military. That's how I've been explained to me in some instances of like where they've learned it and how they're trying to apply it to construction or the trades. So your point of changing that perspective or that perception, I think is so key to remind people of like what you're doing.

• Speaker #0

  And the trades I find is receptive to that because most people are used to the tyrannical or push your will on others or that kind of thing. So if you can like build trust quickly, break down barriers for people and just serve them with not expecting anything in return, it gets buy-in a lot quicker in my opinion.

• Speaker #1

  Let's talk about Bad Leader. I love you. I love you. The name Bad Leader, by the way.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you.

• Speaker #1

  Because you're going against the grain and I'm excited to hear about why you're going against the grain. What was that experience like to start Bad Leader? Was there, is there like a small story you can share of like what that point of like, oh, I got to start this, this needs to exist?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so definitely like I'm a pretty biblical or religious person. So I was like, yo, I need some signs that I need to do this because I'm. feeling like I need to put something out into the world, express myself, for lack of a better word. So there was some... I talked to the most negative friend that I have, and he said it was a good idea. And I was like, really? You, of all people, think this is a good idea? So I was like, okay, that's a pretty good indication. And I talked to my wife. She knows I like to take too much on, and she thought it was a good idea. So I was like, okay, that's two. And then there was a third one. It was so coincidental. I was reading. like an influencer's thing about who their ideal avatar is. You probably know that kind of terminology. And I pulled it up on my phone and I kid you not, the person's name was Devin. So I was like, this is too much for me. I'm going to start Bad Leader. And that's kind of when I started it. The name comes from two things, though. I have been a horrible leader or quote unquote boss or leader or whatever, like getting in to a supervisor role at 25. I did a lot of things wrong. And I just, I don't know. I can't really blame it on anything. I just didn't know, I guess. And then the second reason was I worked for a few bad leaders. So I just thought it was kind of a cool play on words. And for the branding aspect of it, I think I don't want to build my own personal brand too much. I'd rather build like a brand that's bigger than me. And people can hop in and it doesn't have to be my name attached to it. If they want to be a bad leader, they can be a bad leader and they can take it to their teams. It's not just tied to me. It's kind of like you. that you have the skilled project. It's bigger than Amanda, just like Bad Leader, I hope to be bigger than Devin.

• Speaker #1

  Yep. I love it. And what's wrapped up in Bad Leader? I had watched your TED Talk and I'm learning about the framework that you shared on there, which is called Rise, which I would love for you to share more about. But what is your, I would say, mission with Bad Leader? And then talk me through what this framework is that you've developed.

• Speaker #0

  I'm convinced. that if you build people first, the profits come. Do I have the analytics and the statistics for that? No, I'm not that kind of person. But I've seen it in the smaller contractors that I've worked for. They built me and they put me first and they trained the heck out of me and they got major returns. So I'm just convinced people-based leadership and development is the way to go. So for a carpenter like myself, I like things to be complex, but also very simple. So I thought, I got to come up with a word that can kind of summarize what I'm after. So a lot of this was back and forth with AI. And I have certain words that I really hold dearly to me. And some of those are wrapped up in RISE. So RISE stands for R is respect. I believe respect is a major part in the development of people. I is invest. Invest in our people. Invest in our workforce. And you'll see what happens. Support, obviously, that can be... A variety of things. For me, I like supporting people's ventures outside of work, but also supporting people's mental health journeys, journeying alongside them. Because whatever people are carrying at home, they're going to carry to work. It's just the way it is. And whatever they're carrying at work, they're actually going to carry at home too. So supporting people in that regard, and then educate. We used to have a lot of journey people or journey persons for apprentices. Now it's kind of like a lot of apprentices or greens or rookies 2 1 journey person. It's just educate, educate, educate. You can't blame people for not knowing, but you need to be able to teach them and you need to show them the right way. And you need to kind of wrap all those four things together. And I think you can have a pretty killer job site leader. My personal conviction is like to try to help the people in the supervisory roles most, but I hope to help everybody. But yeah, I think supervisors is a really good place to start.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I mean, there are going to be what makes or breaks, right? The time. the culture, like the tone of the job site.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And they're the bridge between management and the workforce. And you kind of have to work those dynamics and see how you can best make both sides work together and move forward.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, and I mean, you talked about invest and you talked about, you're like, I don't know the numbers per se on why I know this is profitable. But the pushback that I've heard and I've gotten with any even programs that I'm a part of on creating more access points for young people to get into these careers is this investment by the contractors in the training and the development. And it's this weird thing where... you've heard it, I'm sure, like the three to five years experience of, and people aren't willing to take people on that are green. And so it should be bigger. It feels like so self-centered by saying, well, I'm not willing to train this person. It's like, well, why? Oh, it'll hit my bottom line. Well, it's like, how do we turn the corner on that?

• Speaker #0

  It is such a hard sell, but I feel like if everybody's doing it, then it's like, just, it becomes an industry standard. So I'm curious to see like, how could... everybody, you know, like how working at heights training or fall prevention training is like mandatory on every job site. In Canada, at least we have like a worker four-step program that's mandatory on every job site. WMIS is mandatory on every job site. What kind of leadership training could be implemented as mandatory on the job site? I just think there's different avenues that that could be explored, but it is definitely a tough sell. I think it costs more to do nothing. That's what I really think. Okay, you don't want to invest in the workforce. That's fine. But You also can't get really upset if that person just has no clue like, oh, this material or this project is a tight money project or this costs a lot of money. Please don't throw it out. Or this is a 12 week lead time. Make sure you take care of this thing instead of the other option is just say nothing and hope for the best. I mean, there's mistakes and costs there as well. It's just really hard to quantify and measure. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is, I guess.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we're trying. I'm trying to try to figure out what the financial piece is to make more of a case for it because I totally believe you in what you're saying. It's like invest in the people and it'll work out.

• Speaker #0

  I've read different studies where they've kind of talked about it in the white collar fields. Okay, they get a 3x return or a 4x return. I haven't really seen anything that was like kind of trade specific.

• Speaker #1

  Got it. Yeah, I would assume it'd be the same if not more.

• Speaker #0

  you You'd hope.

• Speaker #1

  You mentor as part of Badly or you do a lot of mentorship. Are you mentoring mostly supervisors?

• Speaker #0

  I'll be honest with you. I thought my mentor, it's not even a program. It would just be me kind of talking to people on the iPad or whatever. I don't have a lot of people in there. So most of my mentoring, I just take on personally on the job site. I'm not really good with this tech stuff. So I was thinking after my TED Talk... somebody would knock on my door and, you know, offer me $2 million to train them. But that's kind of unrealistic. So I really just feel a calling to work one-to-one in the field. And hopefully people come one-to-one. I would love to do free mentoring with people that live in different areas. But yeah, most of my mentoring is done on the job site, on the ground, in the trenches. And I think that's the best way to mentor is like not from like looking down in the hole, but being in the hole and like, okay, this is what we got to do.

• Speaker #1

  Eye to eye.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. I think person to person is the most powerful way to impact somebody.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And the most powerful person or the most powerful word to everybody is their own name. So if you can learn their name and you can relate to them quickly, build trust. I found the quickest way to build trust with tradespeople is to make fun of yourself. If they can see that you can make fun of yourself, people's walls just collapse because they know you don't really have an ego or trying to prove something. I get made fun of a lot. I invite that. I think it's funny. I can handle it. I've got big shoulders. But that has been a big way for me to break down barriers with people. Just make fun of yourself.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Humor as a way of connecting with people. And when you think about job site and just this trajectory of what happens with leadership and stuff. So it's like, okay, you're a good worker. And then you get moved to foreman. And then now you're supervising, right? Through that journey, are you set up for success currently? Like, is there leadership training? What is going on now in regard to that type of a ladder that there are like programs that support people or are there not programs? And that's what we're trying to fill the gap on.

• Speaker #0

  I think the programs and the groups are growing. We got connected on social media. Social media is super cool because you can meet like-minded people like all over the world. So somebody just told me recently, social media should be like a value project rather than a vanity project. Bring value to people. brain. vanity to people. I have to give a shout out though to, there was one specific person at my local union that I was like, yo, I need help with this leadership thing. The Carpenters have their training center, like the international training center in Las Vegas. So I've been there a few times and the training like... everybody uses. So it's changed my life, but literally that changed my life. I took a DISC assessment before I went down. And then we spent the three or four days breaking down who I am as a person and how I can work with the other DISC profiles for job sites. And that was the whole program. But that literally had a compound effect on my marriage, on the way I parent my kids, on the way I communicate with my mother and my father. It was just so life-giving. And I know it cost them probably a lot of money to get me there and get me back. but um yeah I know that's paid dividends. The reason I know that is because when I'm on the job site and we're dealing with conflict or we're dealing with whatever, I'd be like, man, the old Devin would have not said that. He would have said something way worse. But I can just try to work with people a little bit better. And that's what the Carpenters Union is trying to do is create job site leaders. They have a very robust program. And a lot of the other union coordinators I talk to or the people that are in the other unions, they don't really have access to anything like that. So I think the Brotherhood of Carpenters and... is trailblazing that front.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. It's like you gain this awareness of yourself, right? Like I'm like thinking about, you gain like an awareness and an understanding of like who you uniquely are and not to probably muffle those parts of you, but to actually like build those parts of you that you know, and doing some layers probably from society's conditioning and everything like that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And you can talk about the family tree and all that stuff, I would 100% suggest. Every tradesperson seeks a few hours of therapy. I've gone through thousands of dollars worth of that stuff. And just an awareness of yourself is quite powerful. A lot of us carry a lot of baggage around, especially people in the trades, numbing it with alcohol or whatever, video games or whatever. It's not really the correct way, in my opinion. And therapy can be definitely helpful on the job site. We should coin that phrase. Therapy is good for the job site.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we should. I mean, you're pointing to like the mental health stuff, which I wasn't even planning on talking length with you today. But like it is a thing where it's like there is a lot of trauma that comes into these careers. And then we're seeing like the suicide and the addiction. At the end of the day, it is people hurting. How can we best help people on the job site? And really, it's like, yeah, we need you to perform and everything. But it's to be the best versions of themselves at the end of the day.

• Speaker #0

  I 100% agree. and uh Sometimes it's harder to get people to see that side of it or get them to even to believe in themselves that they are worth it. And people want to feel like they matter. So if you can do that and you can sell that to them that they matter, you can see people turn around, you know?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I'd love to talk, shift our gears slightly and talk a bit about culture and retention within these careers, especially given where you're at from leading and what you've seen throughout your career and going through the apprenticeship experience, seeing both sides. I just came off an interview with a third-year apprentice. I mentioned to you she's in Canada as well. And hearing more about her experience and thinking about it with other apprentices that I've talked to too, what's working, what is failing apprentices right now? And one caveat, and I don't know what Canada's apprentice attrition rate is, but in the United States, our attrition rate is massive. We cannot retain. people in apprentice programs, registered apprentice programs. So is it similar within Canada? And if so, what's going on?

• Speaker #0

  I think the retention thing is like a symptom of a way bigger problem. The people that are, have been in the industry a long, long time, they probably understand things that I really don't understand. But there's definitely things that they don't understand that younger people understand. And I find connecting with the younger workforce is a major pain point. And a lot of people say, oh, my people don't or my people won't or my people can't. No, that's like the wrong mentality to have. It's like I haven't led them to. That's what I like to reframe it as. You haven't led them to do that. It takes ownership on yourself. The retention thing is tough. Sometimes it's also challenging. People don't like the physical labor. And I find it really rewarding personally. But it is definitely different than being in an office building or that kind of thing.

• Speaker #1

  So how many apprentices are working underneath you now?

• Speaker #0

  I have a couple young laborers and I don't know, three carpentry apprentices, two carpentry apprentices.

• Speaker #1

  So with the apprentices you have, like where did they come from? Like you mentioned the physical nature of people don't really, that can deter people from being like, oh yeah, I'm not going to do this. Are some of these people that are joining, were they like previous athletes in high school or before? Where are you seeing people being like able to do this from like a physicality standpoint?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I think we're seeing a lot of people in their second career. So they're like coming from a non-construction background. So just the shock to the body is a lot. Whereas, you know, I came out of high school being relatively active and that just carried me through, which I'm thankful for. But people coming in a second career, you know, 40, 45 years old, they have different giftings and different talents. But it is good to see a lot of the younger people. I got to give it to them like they're pretty in shape and they're pretty healthy. I think a lot of people also don't like the rigidity. of construction. Hybrid work and flexible work, not really an option. We work seven to three. Can I work six to two? No, we work seven to three. Can I work four days a week and then half day Friday? No, we work 40 hours a week. Okay, well, I'm going to go work somewhere else. Unfortunately, that's kind of the way the nature of the industry is. What I think is cool though, with smaller contractors and residential sectors, if you have a smaller crew, you can kind of work that and you can kind of play with that. I mean, during COVID, I have a family member that does trim in the Toronto area. And he was fearful of COVID. He did, and he would just go work in houses in the middle of the night. So they're empty job sites. And he would do the trim from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. So the flexibility is not really there, but it's kind of there. You just have to kind of try and find it.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Going back to like putting people first, like, is there a world where you're like, oh, this doesn't make sense. We have like robots helping us with X or I don't, you know what I'm saying? Where it's like, we, this is now a 32 hour a week job.

• Speaker #0

  Honestly, the cutting edge or the people that are going to push the boundaries might see the best people move over to there. So what do I mean by that? Okay, it's hard to manage six people that want to work four days a week, but they want to work Monday through Thursday and some of them want to work Tuesday to Friday. So for a manager, that's just a headache to try and organize and manage and make sure everybody's in the loop. But I think with modern tools and scheduling programs and whatnot, we have data centers. We can make sure everybody's getting the same information. I think it's out there. I really do. I think that it is hard to manage, but if we have the help of AI and scheduling systems, I don't think it's that crazy to dream up of a world where people are working different hours at different times and doing different things. I really don't think it's that far off.

• Speaker #1

  For sure. Talking about going back to retention, because that's where we're coming from right now. Talking about this labor shortage, which I think is also the symptom of a bigger problem. I'm a big believer in like retention and access are like these. core issues. And for me, retention, it's like culture and leadership, I think are like the key drivers that impact the retention. And access, access being the infrastructure is not there to access some of these jobs. There's a lot of people on the waitlist, for example, and yet we're screaming labor shortage, at least specifically within the union. Or it's like we need to expand and create more infrastructure to train people, but we don't have that yet. So like the access stuff is another issue. That's like causing bottlenecks in this whole thing. But from your vantage point in regard to going back to retention and why people leave, do you think then the top ones are what you just shared, which is the physicality, the schedule flexibility? Is there another thing that you think is the top?

• Speaker #0

  Definitely what you just said, prefacing that, was the people leaving bad bosses. They're like, yo, I don't need to be yelled at. I don't need you to talk down to me. Like I'll go work somewhere else. I can get a job tomorrow working for that company. And I know that dude and he's not going to yell at me. And he's not going to call me names. And he's not going to treat me like I'm a piece of garbage. So I'm going to go work there. So definitely that is a huge, that's the old mantra. Like people don't quit a job, they quit a boss.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Which makes bad leader that much more important, right?

• Speaker #0

  That's right. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I am the solution. It's really fascinating to see. Obviously, like country to country, how it's playing out. And a lot of it's pretty, from a pattern standpoint, relates to whether you're in the United States or Canada. We're seeing very similar things play out. Going back to my last question around retention, it sounds like for you, the lever you would choose to fix would be leadership as like your number one.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's my passion. That's the number one lever. Let's click it. Let's do what we need to do to one person at a time. Let's change their mind. Let's get these supervisors, like these A-class supervisors in good positions, let them lead big jobs, let them thrive. And I think you'll just see a ripple effect. I believe in those ripple effects. And some of the most positive influences in my life have been from people I've just observed and admired from online, if I'm honest with you. So I think that is definitely an access barrier that is breaking down is you can find people online that you like and kind of emulate their beliefs or their behaviors. And that's super cool that way. It's like you choose people that you're like, oh, who do I want to become? And so it's like you were able to emulate quicker than maybe you would have done before because you could see more of who they are from a day to day.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly.

• Speaker #0

  And so this is like a random question and thought I had that just came out. But is there a stat or something that you've learned throughout your career that just stopped you in your tracks and you're like, what? Whether it be impacted your belief system when it came to this industry. Or it's like something that you share with people that you talk to of like, did you know X about the industry or about leadership, etc?

• Speaker #1

  I think a lot of people are talking about it right now. And it is the suicide rate. I do a lot. And a lot of my job is like the health and safety of the workforce. And it's a super important job. The most important job that I have is making sure the people that work for me are safe. But it's like a fraction of those injuries and... all those job site fatalities and things like that are awful, but it's a fraction of literally people that are just killing themselves in the industry. So why not take psychological safety training or take it to that next level? And that stat really bothered me a lot because people are just struggling in silence. And I have been there myself and I consider myself pretty open about my mental health. I consider myself pretty in tune with what's going on in my head, but I've been in those dark spots. Even just a few years ago, I remember, I don't like to share this stuff, but coming home and I'm just done. And it was the middle of winter. I was going through kind of like those seasonal blues and just breaking down with my wife. Like, I don't know if I can take it anymore. Just the pressure of work and being busy and these people needing this and everybody's needing something from you. And yeah, I just remember going through a pretty dark time. And I have never struggled with addiction before, but I've seen a lot of my friends. and family members struggle with that. And I can see why people use different substances to try and escape what they're going through because it's tough. It's tough in the head and it's lonely in the head. And people my age, men especially, are isolated. They don't belong to communities of people. And I hope Bad Leader becomes a community for people to just chat and be open with each other one-to-one. But yeah, that really sucks a lot.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I'm sorry you went through that experience. You've obviously came out the other side and are able to help people. And you just obviously sharing your story can help somebody. You have no idea what that may do. So thank you. That's the big thing that I keep hearing, especially from men, is the isolation. And also just this, no one's coming to save you. I keep hearing this. It's like, well, that's how we've learned to toughen it up. Like, we weren't allowed to cry as boys. Like, it's just like, this is how we've raised men. And so it's just obviously not fair because it's like, we all need one another. This maybe goes into my question about, I had to you around masculinity, aspects of masculinity that need to evolve against suffering and silence and the stigma around either seeking help or talking about it. Like, it just needs to stop.

• Speaker #1

  Some days, though, like as a dad of four and people probably will relate with this, it's like my mental health is in the backseat. If I don't go to work today, I'm not making any money. And I got, you know, four kids and a wife looking at me to be that provider. And I want to be a provider way more than just the financial provider. But that is a harsh reality. So it's like, man, I am feeling rough. Like I'm having a really rough week. Nothing is going well. and a lot going on in my head, but I have no choice. I got to go to work. And the other thing is, if I put my mental health first, I wouldn't be where I am in my career. That's just the way it is. And a lot of people are probably the same. They wouldn't be where they are in their career. They wouldn't be making the money that they're making. They wouldn't have what they have if they had put their mental health as a priority. That's just a tough reality. Yeah, it's just a weird connection. If you prioritize that, you might not get where you want to go. So there's definitely sacrifices and stories we don't hear from people that have sacrificed majorly to get to where they're going.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I mean, you're talking about a little bit of like the resilience of like going through those experience that help build resilience probably is what you're talking about, like pushing through certain time of adversity, right? And when I'm thinking about the mental health, The shame, like these low energy emotions, whether it be shame or that people can get stuck in cycles on or fixated on or you can't break the cycle. Like when you're in the pit, it's really hard to get out of that pit, right? So when you get to that point, it's a tough topic and it's a tough line to walk.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and it's a weird thing with men, especially for me. What I know is like shame and guilt, it's like a handcuff. And it's like handcuffing you down. You can't really do it alone. Like you need to have somebody that can help you get out of there. Like you need to have somebody like whittling an old rusty key in the handcuff to help you get out. Whether that be your therapist or a close friend or something. It's like, yeah, shame and guilt, they hit men differently. And there's like these old studies of like, would you rather somebody love you or somebody respect you? And most men would rather a person respect them than love them. And most women would rather have people love them than respect them. So respect is huge for guys. And if they feel like the respect is going to be lost or tarnished, they'll think twice about reaching out. They'll think twice about asking for help.

• Speaker #0

  That's really interesting regard to like what the value is right there, what they value more. Well, one of my last questions is more like a statement to you, like get on your soapbox for a second. What do you think every contractor in North America, if they heard one thing from you tomorrow, what would it be?

• Speaker #1

  Respect, invest, support, educate. I don't have stats, but trust me, people matter. They're more than a means to an end. You matter more than you think. You can push through the adversity you're going through. You can help other people. And we can all move forward together rather than trying to step on each other to get forward.

• Speaker #0

  I love it. Is there any questions you have, though, for me before we wrap?

• Speaker #1

  If leadership and supervisory development is my number one thing, what's your number one thing?

• Speaker #0

  My number one is unlocking people's potential. That's been my number one for a while. It's like building, for me, it's building the systems that unlock people's potential versus dimming their light. Like how do we develop the systems in our society, education system, the work system that brings the best out of somebody. instead of a system that dims who that person is at their core.

• Speaker #1

  I love it.

• Speaker #0

  This is my last question. And I ask it at the end of every interview. But who in the world would you like to thank for where you are today?

• Speaker #1

  I'm going to have to go with one of my old bosses. His name was Richie. Shout out to Richie. He treated me like a son. My wife rolled her car. He gave us a truck. That guy showed me what leadership was. He showed me what mentorship was. Richie. and then I had a a journeyman, John Mark. He taught me most of the things I know. We had a great apprenticeship together. I had since moved on, but I do miss that guy dearly. And those two guys were the two best that I had.

• Speaker #0

  Amazing. Devin, Skilled AF, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing about your journey and Bad Leader and all that you're doing to change the industry one person at a time, but also just bring in and lead this next generation. It's so critical. And you are part of that leadership that's going to lead this lasting impact on where the industry is headed and then where people are going. So thank you.

• Speaker #1

  I do appreciate your generosity with your time. And I'm super humbled to be able to speak to you and the skilled project. So thank you so much.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the skilled AF podcast. If you enjoyed it, please rate, review, subscribe to it, wherever you're listening. And if you want to stay connected, partner, you name it, head over to the skilled project.com or follow us on social media at the skilled project until next time. Stay skilled AF.