- Speaker #0
Hey everybody, I'm Lili.
- Speaker #1
And I'm Alanna.
- Speaker #0
And this is Spookery. Uh, we're back. Episode 3 BB.
- Speaker #1
Let's go.
- Speaker #0
Man, has it been three weeks already? you know it's kind of crazy i it feels like it's been going on for longer but at the same time we haven't done enough it's weird yeah i think that's that's fair uh i think all the research kind of makes it feel longer and also we've been talking about it for so long so that's true the concept of spookery was born quite a while ago it sure was it sure was uh but we're back it's my turn again we are doing the category of wtf cases what the fuck you I got a good one for you, I think. I'm pretty proud of this one.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I've had a chance to recharge my batteries. I've just come back from the spookiest of vacations, literally Halloween in Salem, not to date this recording, but I've just come back from that. And man. We have to go. We have to go.
- Speaker #1
Next year. It's booked. I bought my ticket. We're going. All right. It's happening.
- Speaker #0
Yes. I want to go on all the tours with you. I want to see all the ghosts with you. I was literally going around Salem, just like pointing around a building going, is it Heine?
- Speaker #1
maybe we can do you know some special episodes next year like specifically salem themed around you know if we do a trip together i'm kind of hoping that the spookery wheel is favorable to me and i get like haunted locations or something
- Speaker #0
along the line so i could talk about salem because like i i went with the intention of collecting stories and man oh man like i filled out my spreadsheet with stories there are so many cool salem stories that people don't really know about because like it's the the witch trials is like the big thing it's the 16 1692 1693 everyone knows that but then there were a whole like there's like salem has so much history from then until now and like nobody talks about it and it's like okay all right i got you salem i got your number i got you
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Dive in. Like you said, dive into those DMs and get the real scoop of what's going on.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I've befriended all of the historians. I had a good chat with them. I stole their stories. I did. I didn't tell. I can tell you this now. I went to the Ouija board museum in Salem. Oh, because there is one. It's the only in-person museum. So they claim actually really cool. Like if it's got like a bunch of like the old historic Ouija boards that I talked about in the last episode, my last episode. And, like, it had, you know, the Oriole board, it had the classic before Ouija Ouija boards, it had the Barbie pink one was there. I was a little surprised it didn't have cryptique. It didn't have the beautiful blue Salem limited edition one.
- Speaker #1
That is unfortunate. I mean, it did have the Barbie one, so that's pretty cool.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I do have a question, though. When you say the only in-person one, do you mean, like, the other Ouija board? I mean, things are, they're all for ghosts? Yes. Oh,
- Speaker #0
yeah. Okay. No. So the other Ouija board museum, the one that immediately comes to mind was one of my sources, which was the Talking Board Museum. And that's an entirely virtual museum. Oh. So they don't have an in-person location. It's only a virtual archive, kind of like the Spookery is a virtual archive.
- Speaker #1
I see.
- Speaker #0
So they've collected Ouija boards and all the history of Ouija boards over the years, but it's all in a virtual sense. This one was the in-person one where they had physical boards and they were covering the walls. And I mostly went in there to double check, make sure I got everything right. And from what I understood, I got most everything right. A couple of things were a little off, but I also could be just like oral tradition. Like, you know, certain details change. It was none of the really important details, so I'm still satisfied with my episode.
- Speaker #1
Hell yeah.
- Speaker #0
But really cool to visit. I'm officially a Ouijologist, that is just my life now. I live in the throes of Ouija. Hasbro is still being weird. I'm on to you.
- Speaker #1
And Travelers Insurance Company.
- Speaker #0
Yes. Hasbro, Travelers Insurance Company, we're on to you. We know. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
First two episodes already uncovered two conspiracy theories. Let's see what we uncover with this third episode.
- Speaker #0
I don't know if I have a conspiracy theory this episode. I'm going to be honest. Because my topic is what the fuck cases, I focused more on the cases themselves more than what was happening around the time. Because like... They're weird and we'll get into it, but I don't know if I have a company to add something conspiracy. Maybe we'll uncover one later that I wasn't even aware of, but...
- Speaker #1
we'll get into it yeah well i'm excited nonetheless uh like i said i don't know anything about this one even seeing the title of this i don't think i've ever heard of these so oh that makes me so happy so i am intrigued all right so for
- Speaker #0
for those of you who did not read the title of this episode i am covering the erdington murders also known as the erdington coincidences um it is it they're technically two separate murders uh both of them happened in erdington they are not connected in any way um but there is a vein of strangeness to them and we'll get into it i'm really glad that you don't know this uh you've never heard of the the erdington murders or the erdington coincidence
- Speaker #1
No. The coup. No.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
What a name.
- Speaker #0
I know, right? Like, I... This is a British set of murders. It's two murders. Not connected in any way, shape, or form. They're not related to each other. Yeah, we'll start there. I did actually think about how I was going to do this, because this is a very fun case, but it's also like you could, you know, hand out the key early and be like, here, this is the twist, but now we're like, really pay attention because the details get kind of weird. Or I could tell you the stories. and kind of let it sink in slowly and then do the recap at the end. I love it.
- Speaker #1
So
- Speaker #0
I'm going to just get straight into the murders and then we'll do a debrief at the end, kind of going over what makes this so bizarre.
- Speaker #1
I'm here for it.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I hope you guys enjoy it. I'm going to start off quickly, though, with a trigger warning. We are going to touch upon sexual assault. I will flag it when it comes up so you can skip ahead, but just know that it is part of these cases, this case. I'm not going to go into any detail, but just be aware that we do talk about sexual assault later on. Perfect. So, Alana, how do I like to start my stories?
- Speaker #1
With context.
- Speaker #0
I sure do. Okay.
- Speaker #1
We're going to get a whole big scoop of context right where we like it.
- Speaker #0
Yes. My favorite spice is context. So, well, let's get into some context. So, my context is Erdington, which is, of course, the setting of my What the Fuck case. Erdington is a suburb of Birmingham, England. It's three hours northwest of London in good traffic. I'm not going to claim that I've tried it any like recently, but in good traffic, when I checked, it's about three hours northwest of London. um i'll trust you on that yeah please do please please trust me um all of my from all of my research it's a very ordinary english town it's it's very ordinary it has a population of 23 000 people as of 2001 um most residents are christian um though there is a rising population of agnostic and atheist residents very you Like I said, very standard. Here's a random note, random side note, because I love those. Erdington appears in something called the Doomsday Book.
- Speaker #1
Oh.
- Speaker #0
It's spelled Domesday, D-O-M-E-S-D-A-Y, but it's pronounced Doomsday.
- Speaker #1
That doesn't sound good.
- Speaker #0
Well, the Doomsday Book was originally called the Book of Winchester, and it was actually a ledger of William the Conqueror. And it was how old Willie used to log all of the lands and holdings that belonged to him. So when he conquered, he was like, that's mine. That's mine. So he would log it in this book, and it was called the Doomsday Book because whatever he wrote in this book, you couldn't change it. it was unalterable and it could not be challenged so it was called the Jim Stay book nothing to do with the end of the world it's just what it was called so back to Erdington Yes. Did you want to say something?
- Speaker #1
I accept. I accept it.
- Speaker #0
All right.
- Speaker #1
I don't want to be in the book, but I accept it.
- Speaker #0
All right. Yeah. Well, if you are in the book, it means you belong to William the Conqueror. I don't think anybody wants that.
- Speaker #1
No, I don't want to. No. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
So, Erdington is currently conservative. For those of you who don't know, there's two main British parties, the Conservative and Labour. So, Erdington is currently conservative from what I could see. And it is actually the home of a couple of famous people. We love that. So it's the original hometown of footballers Paul Devlin, Ronnie Bird and Mikey Kenning. Oh my gosh. These are British footballers, not soccer players. Like you're soccer players, but British footballers.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I know them just the same. Not at all.
- Speaker #0
Makes no difference. It's also hometown to musical talents Jeff Flynn of ELO, John Lodge and Mike Pinder of Moody Blues.
- Speaker #1
Moody Blues.
- Speaker #0
I've never heard of them, but I'm sure they're great. Yeah. Most notably, it's the hometown of John Oliver from... last week tonight with John Oliver. Oh,
- Speaker #1
wow.
- Speaker #0
That's neat-o. He's from Erdington.
- Speaker #1
Wow, so I bet he's heard of this.
- Speaker #0
You know, I would not be surprised if he had, because it's quite the tarnish on Erdington's reputation. It's a very standard town. Like, even American towns are like this. Like, they're very sleepy, you know. Nothing bad happens in these towns. They're just... It's just a very standard, very ordinary... town.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Nothing happens.
- Speaker #1
Until it wasn't.
- Speaker #0
Until it wasn't. I wouldn't be talking about Erdington if nothing bad happened. So what makes Erdington special, though, is that it has this legacy. It has, it has, it has like a scar upon it, I guess. And it's in the form of the Erdington murder or Erdington murders or Erdington coincidences. So, like I said, Erdington murders are two separate murders. They both took place in Erdington and they're not connected. They are not related to each other. So I'm going to talk about the first one right now, which is the murder of Mary Ashford. so our first murder happened in 1817 uh which means information was so hard to find yeah i like 1800 murders i guess um i will actually save this for both information about the victims for uh both murders incredibly difficult to come by and it's actually harder for me to find information on the other one this is actually the one i could find the most information um And certain information is also twisted in some of my sources, so I did my best to try and figure out which one was the truth. I actually found the old court records from 1817, so that helped me kind of get my information in line. But like I said, there's not a lot that I know about the victims, which is such a shame. But I think what kind of happened is that the victims kind of got swept up in the what-the-fuck nature of these cases. So I've done my best to try and piece together what I could find of their lives, but there's just not a lot of information.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Cool. So, Mary Ashford, born December 31st, 1796. She was a heckin'Capricorn. I just, I have a say.
- Speaker #1
You start the story with the Capricorn.
- Speaker #0
I always gotta start my story with the Capricorn. Context and Capricorn. That's the truth. She was the daughter of Thomas Ashford and Anne Ashford. And she had seven siblings. big family. She had four brothers and three sisters, and her most notable siblings are her older brother and sister named William and Anne. She was a devout Christian. you know, as most people in Erdington were at the time. She was also a domestic servant and a housekeeper to her uncle, John Coleman, I'm going to guess on her mother's side. And he was a farmer at a place called Langley Heath. Her father, yes. Just gorgeous, beautiful place. Her father was also local and he worked as a gardener in Erdington. But she was currently under employee of her uncle and she kind of would run errands, you know, she would take things to market. She would clean his house, you know, she was kind of like, you know, she was the errand girl kind of thing. um so our story takes place on may 26 1817 which was a religious holiday called wit monday which i didn't know was a religious holiday uh but it's it's it fluctuates with easter so it the holiday changes uh every year but on this particular year in 1817 it landed on may 26th so mary left work at about 6 p.m to visit her friend hannah cox The two had made plans that night to hit the town, go dancing, go see the sights, have a party. They were going to go celebrate because it was a holiday.
- Speaker #1
Is that what you do on Easter?
- Speaker #0
Well, this is not Easter. This is Whit Monday.
- Speaker #1
Oh, I'm sorry. Is that like you're celebrating Easter's over basically?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So it's like,
- Speaker #1
yeah, that holiday sucked. It's Whit Monday.
- Speaker #0
Easter happens like a month before and then like a month later than Whit Monday. Well,
- Speaker #1
Easter happens on a Sunday and then you said this was a Monday. So I imagined it was the day after.
- Speaker #0
No, no, no. this is it was confusing it was quite good it's quite some time i think easter happens in april usually this is in may oh that's true okay i don't know when easter is apparently yeah so on this particular religious holiday, Mary goes to hang out with a friend, Hannah Cox. Uh, they made the plans that night to go dancing and they were actually going to go up to a very specific local dance hall called the three tons, uh, tons T U N S. Oh, it's now called the Tyburn house and it still stands today. It is a pub. Oh, I want to go. There you go. Yeah, go to... I don't know if they do dancing, but I know that they serve good food. Because this was like a... Well, it's a religious holiday, so your point is to eat and be merry. So it was still a pub back then, but it also had a dance hall section. Now I think it's just a pup.
- Speaker #1
I'm getting a lot of mixed signals. I don't know.
- Speaker #0
I don't know what to tell you. I haven't been to Erdington. I can only tell you what I see here. And this was in 1817. I don't know what's what.
- Speaker #1
All right. Well, continue. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
What's worth noting here, earlier in that week, Mary, Hannah's mother, actually reported that Mary had said that she had a bad feeling about the week to come. so very very ominous yeah that's not gonna uh so mary goes to the cox's house at 6 p.m they get all dressed up and it is actually noted that mary had uh bought brand new shoes for the event she was going out in a beautiful brand new dress and she was wearing a straw bonnet oh um they reportedly arrived around tyburn house at 7 30 p.m and the party was at full swing yeah like They were late to the party. Things were already getting started.
- Speaker #1
You show up fashionably late. You want to start. You want to get there when things have already gotten into things. You don't want to be the first one there. Right. No one wants to be the first one on the dance floor.
- Speaker #0
Oh, my. Can you imagine? You show up to the dance hall like you're the only one there. You're like, well, I'm going to cut a rug. It's fine.
- Speaker #1
No, you get there. All the other girls on the dance floor are already sweaty. Their hair is frizzy. And you get there looking like a snack. She's going to clean up. Oh,
- Speaker #0
let me tell you.
- Speaker #1
She knew what she was doing.
- Speaker #0
Let me tell you. Mary was a snack. She was looking. fab this evening. And it's actually reported that she was kind of the belle of the town. She was gorgeous. She looked great in her new dress and her straw bonnet. And she was seen dancing with a variety of suitors. It was later in the evening, they actually began conversing with two men in particular, one named Benjamin Carter, and the other was called Abraham Thornton.
- Speaker #1
I don't trust him.
- Speaker #0
fair you should not uh so at midnight the four left together they left tyburn house and they were going along the path benjamin and hannah split up with mary and abraham so there were a couple of my sources that said that benjamin returned to to the dance hall but the actual court record stated that he just went home and i was like wow like benjamin either like kept the party going past midnight, or he went home.
- Speaker #1
One of the two.
- Speaker #0
One of the two. But the court records indicate that he went straight home, so I'm going to say he went straight home. Hannah also went straight back home, and Mary announced that she would be going to her grandfather's house that evening because it was closer to work, which was true. Hannah did note, however, that Mary would need to come back to Erdington to pick up her work clothes anyway because she had gotten dressed at Hannah's house. So, like, it wouldn't have mattered. She could have, like, she was gonna go she had to come back to hannah's house anyway to pick up her clothes yeah her plan made no sense she kind of made it note that she was like all right mary like get it but like be safe yeah um so mary and thornton departed in the direction of mary's grandfather's house at 2 45 a.m thornton was seen leaving a friend's house with a woman in tow who kept her head down and hidden and this was specifically like mentioned like she was deliberately trying to hide her face so it's not known if this was mary but I think it's safe to say that it probably was, and she just, you know, didn't want to be seen that she was partying out at nearly 3am.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, she's a good girl. People would know. They would talk.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, she's devoutly religious as well. Like, it's a holiday, yes, but it's, you know, it's a religious community. And, like, nothing good happens after 2am, so, like...
- Speaker #1
she's got things to do yeah things to do for people to do well anyway moving swiftly on yes so at 4 a.m on may
- Speaker #0
27th the day after the tuesday hannah was awoken by mary who had spoke by to change her clothes so she came back to hannah's house anyway oh thank god she's fine Yeah. Hannah is naturally like, what the fuck, Mary? It's 4am. And she noted that Mary appeared in a pleasant mood and had spent time with Thornton before the two had parted ways. So, you know, of course, they're getting like, Hannah's like, what's up? But also like, are you safe? Are you good? She's like, yeah, I'm totally fine. Mary also then sorry Mary began her walk home promptly about that and a lot of witnesses saw her on the road just a little after 4 a.m. so she arrived just before 4 a.m. and she left right after 4 a.m. so it was a pretty quick turnover yeah and witnesses reported that she was traveling alone okay some of the witnesses that saw her between the hours of 3.30 and 4.30 a.m. they all said they saw her alone but they also noted that she was walking quickly so that either could be that she was nervous or she was trying to get to work but it was noted that she was walking quickly so do with that what you will okay so it's 6 30 a.m on may 27th 1817 a local laborer was on his way to work and he was walking through an area which will later be called pipe hayes park but at this moment it's currently just a field in girdington uh but he's on his way to work all right as he's kind of going through this field he stumbles upon a bundle of clothing you a straw bonnet, and a pair of bloody shoes next to a flooded sandpit. Oh. Yeah. So naturally, when you stumble upon a bundle of clothes and bloody shoes, you're like, whoa, I am not qualified for this. I need to get help. So he ran down through the field, and he began knocking on the doors of the people who lived in this area. It was called Chester Road. He's knocking on the doors. He's like, call the police. There's been a terrible accident. And they alerted the police, and he, you know. went all this way. They eventually dragged the bottom of this flooded sandpit and the body of Mary Ashwood was found submerged in the dirty water. She was 500 yards away from her home. oh my gosh yeah that's unbelievable right poor girl so there were two sets of muddy footprints in the area around the body one believed was belonged uh belonged to a man and the other a woman leading up to the pool and then the men's the man's footprints uh departed alone and disappeared mary's arms were covered in bruises uh they believed defensive in nature you And trigger warning, trigger warning, trigger warning, please skip ahead. She had been raped and strangled. So she was raped first and then she was strangled. Her cause of death was found to be drowning. Oh. So she had been attacked, strangled, and left for dead. But she was left for dead in this flooded sandpit, face down, submerged in the water. And it was later found that she had died of drowning. And it was actually a work of very early forensic work. it was like a later they had done like a quick autopsy and they found duckweed in her stomach which led them to believe that she she had drowned interesting i was going to say this was like you said 1817 like yes this is early so wait Oh yeah.
- Speaker #1
That's interesting.
- Speaker #0
Oh yeah. This was, this was way back. This was not like they didn't have DNA. They didn't have forensic. They didn't have ways to like save the footprints. Like, yeah, this is like early, early stuff. So the fact that, you know, they, they figured out that she had drowned because they have the contents in her stomach. It's really impressive.
- Speaker #1
It is.
- Speaker #0
So good on you. Yeah. it was also speculated by the way that the footprints were around the sound pit that her attacker had waited for her in the fields like in hiding and then he had snuck up behind her before attacking that was kind of the message that the footprints had given her gotcha so by 8 a.m Abraham Thornton was in handcuffs and accused of murder.
- Speaker #1
Oh, wow.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, they didn't. They wasted no time. They found the body at 6.30 in the morning. 8.30. Sorry, 8 a.m. Thornton was in handcuffs, and he had been carted off to Warwick jail.
- Speaker #1
Interesting.
- Speaker #0
So let's talk about Thornton for a bit. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I need to know more about this gentleman.
- Speaker #0
This gentleman, this man, this Abraham Thornton. So he was born in 1793. So that would make him about 24 at the time of the murder. so he would have been four years older but then married. Okay. He was the son of a construction worker slash bricklayer. And it was said that he dabbled in construction. It didn't say that that's what he did, but I think he helped his dad from time to time. But he worked as a farmhand primarily. Okay. He was described as heavy set. and both as a well-looking fellow and of repulsive appearance. So he's somewhere between, he looks okay, to whoa.
- Speaker #1
So you either loved him or you hated him. He was a very specific taste.
- Speaker #0
I think it was part of his personality reflected on that. If you just saw him, you're like, yeah, he's an average-looking guy. But when you got to know him, you're like, oh. You're not necessarily a nice guy, are ya?
- Speaker #1
So what did Mary see in the schlup?
- Speaker #0
Well, we don't know. She's not here to tell her story, unfortunately.
- Speaker #1
That's fair.
- Speaker #0
yeah so maybe that was a problem maybe and it's possible that she didn't see anything in him and it's like we'll we'll we'll talk about that just a just a sec okay so uh a couple of onlook at the at the time of the dance um a couple of onlookers and witnesses said that when he saw mary at the dance that night you he had leaned into this onlooker and asked her who she was. The onlooker claimed that, he told her, that's Mary Ashford, you know, Bella Verdington, beautiful girl. And then as soon as Thornton heard this, he started boasting that he had been intimate with her sister three times and he would be intimate with Mary or die for it.
- Speaker #1
What?
- Speaker #0
Thornton had claimed that he had been intimate with Mary's sister and her older sister three times before. And he was like... You know, like, I'm a big deal around that Ashford family, so I'm definitely gonna be with Mary. hmm okay you know what a child right just what what a lad you know just anyway uh thornton later denied these claims uh and the claims were also proven to be untrue and was like who the fuck is this wow i've never heard of this man there's just a weirdo so so yeah he was boasted about something that didn't happen he also later denied that he said that classic benjamin yeah no that's not benjamin this is abraham thornton oh yes so sorry classic abraham i mean honestly it's classic benjamin but abraham's just doing it it's weird Yeah, Benjamin was there. He was just like, I like Hannah. She's great. He was observed to be, Thornton was observed to be very attentive to Mary. So she appeared to enjoy his company. He was very doting. You know, he paid a lot of attention to her, complimented her, danced with her. So she didn't, from what people said, they didn't appear, she didn't appear repulsed by him. Like, they just seemed like they were having fun.
- Speaker #1
I mean, like, I guess, but, like, she wasn't running away screaming.
- Speaker #0
And they also left the dance together. So this is a thing to remember. They left the dance together, but Mary's friend Hannah later said that Thornton did not walk with them, but rather behind them, as if he was following.
- Speaker #1
That's strange.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Okay. So, of course, Hannah and Benjamin go off home in their separate directions. In some of my sources, it said that Hannah and Benjamin actually hung out on a bridge for a little bit before going home. But I couldn't find what their relationship was. They might have known each other, they might have been dating, or they might have met that night. The important part is that the two of them went off and Mary and Thornton went off together. uh so what a good friend you know this guy this kid's just this word kid's just following us i'm just gonna go off with this other boy though you're good though right okay bye but i'm also like you know like they're young they're 20 years old uh and you know like if mary is going like oh yeah i'm absolutely going back to my grandfather's house like the girl goes like okay well she wants to get it like she's young she could do what she wants like yeah if she if like i'm not you're not her babysitter you know you kind of hope that she's gonna look out for her she wasn't drunk she wasn't like you know she wasn't under the influence of anything. She was just having fun. She was having a fun night. Yeah. So, Mary and Thornton went off together and he claims at about 2.30 in the morning, he and Mary had consensual sex in the field. They claimed that they did stargazing and then he walked her to Cox's house to pick up her clothes. This is Thornton's story. He dropped her off at Cox's house, but according to Thornton, no matter how long he waited, she didn't come out. So he was kind of like, he became this jilted lover. He felt chastened and he was tired. It was like four in the morning. So he went home alone. Now remember, Mary was not in Hannah's house for very long. She went in right before 4 a.m. and left just after 4 a.m. Like it was a very quick turnaround.
- Speaker #1
So, you know,
- Speaker #0
do with that what you will. So when Thornton was arrested, upon his arrest, he told the police, I cannot believe she is murdered. Why? I was with her until four o'clock this morning. And they were like, that's crazy, because that's around the time she died.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
yeah huh uh yeah so after the arrest he was stripped and searched because you know they're like maybe he's got a weapon on him like it's the he was arrested that morning so you know he didn't have a lot of time to do a turnaround um so his shoes were confiscated and blood was found on his undergarments this is amlicutin for you yeah his shoes were compared to the prints at the scene um they this is another uh part of early forensics they couldn't like they didn't know how to cast these footprints they actually covered the footprints with a board to protect them from the elements. Okay. And then they compared them that way, and they, you know, they compared it with the, yeah, they compared it with the money for Prince of the Scene. And Thornton's shoe actually had a nail lodged into the sole of his shoe. Oh. And they were proven to be a match.
- Speaker #1
Oh my gosh.
- Speaker #0
It's not looking good. It's not looking good.
- Speaker #1
So they throw him in jail immediately.
- Speaker #0
Well, they did. They arrested him. They took him at 830 and he was like, I'm going to jail with you.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, good.
- Speaker #0
So August 8th. So this is like a month later. August 8th, 1817. At this point, the public was convinced that Thornton was their guy.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Like, it had spread through Erdington. There was, like, the shoes match. He had blood on his undergarments. Like, this man is guilty. Yeah. It was, like, it actually got to a point where they were struggling to find jury members because, like, the whole pool was, like, tainted. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
After word spreads, it's hard to kind of get past that bias.
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- Speaker #1
Small town. Everybody knows.
- Speaker #0
yeah 6 a.m that morning there was actually a huge crowd forming just to get access to the courthouse and the crowds were actually so overwhelming it delayed the start of the the start of the trial oh my gosh because like people were just trying to get in and it was like they couldn't tell who needed to be there so they were like is everybody here we're not sure but people are still trying to get in it was it got a little it got a little silly yeah you Yeah, there were also huge campaigns between May 27th and August 8th. They were actually spreading flyers. They were like word of mouth was spreading. So yeah, like I said, it was really, really hard to find an unbiased jury. like town of earning to him was like he did it let's get it let's fucking get them boys lock them up yes so during the trial thornton painted this very weepy story uh and it was all about like how he was he was absolutely enamored with mary and he lovingly doted on her all evening and he escorted her and he never took his eyes off of her and like and he and he extended her night because she just wanted to keep partying after midnight and he took her to all these beautiful places and they hung out And she was so enamored with him. They had these relations in the field and watched the stars together. And, you know, he was like, she's the one. My heart, it burns for her. Like, she was my everything. And lo and behold, she jilted me when I took her to her friend's home at 4 a.m. anyway it was this big sob story about you know like oh he dropped her off at mary's house but then he began to believe that mary had just been playing with his heart and he was the victim that he had he had been he had been made a fool of and they and she had taken like his chastity from him wow yeah it was it was quite a it was quite a sob story that he he wove uh yeah and it according to thornton he dejectedly left her at Hannah's house, and he was only informed that something bad had happened when the police knocked on his door at eight that morning. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
That sounds super convincing.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Unfortunately, there were plenty of witnesses to back up Thornton's claims. I hate that. Yeah. Yeah. So one witness was a milkman and he claimed you saw Thornton at 430, two miles from the scene of the crime. So the crime kind of happened between 430 and 630. It was in that window that this happened. So already people are saying that they saw Thornton at 430, two miles from the scene of the crime. Hmm. At 450 a.m., Thornton was seen by a gameskeeper in Castle Bromwich. where he had actually stopped for a chat for like a whole 15 minutes and they were like oh yeah you know i was just at this party it was you know it was a religious holiday i had a great time this girl she was really cool yeah yeah and then they parted ways so he's been accounted for for at least that amount of time uh the defense stated that for thornton to have to uh if thornton had had the opportunity to kill mary he'd have to chase her down you attacker, then travels three miles in no less than 11 minutes, which, you know, this was the 1800s. That's quite a task.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. They didn't have cars. They didn't, you know, there wasn't like a local horse. Like, yeah, it was quite, I mean, it's not impossible, but it was, you know, it was quite the act.
- Speaker #1
Hey, I know how bad my mile times are. This guy would have to be pretty fizzed.
- Speaker #0
Yes. So the judge was a man named Sir George Sowley Holroyd. Whoa, what a name. Yeah. So after Thornton had given his very weepy speech and Hannah had spoken, they actually got Benjamin to speak for a little bit. And he was like, you know, I didn't see much. I went to the dance and I went home. Yeah. So he took two whole hours to sum up the case after everyone had made their speeches.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Okay.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And he urged the jury to only rule on the specific charges, which there were two charges for murder. Yeah, it was an assault of murder. And the jury had to forget any implied malice. Like, they couldn't go on any speculation. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
It's a fair request, but...
- Speaker #0
Yeah. No, just wait. He also stated that Thornton was behaving very honestly, and he had no reason to lie.
- Speaker #1
What?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, this is what the judge said. He had no reason to lie. He also boldly announced during his sum-up that he didn't believe Thornton committed the crime.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And once again, making note of Thornton's appearance, he claimed that Thornton didn't look like the man who could run. Oh.
- Speaker #1
Okay.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. His final note to the jury was, it's better for a murderer to go free than an innocent man be convicted.
- Speaker #1
Well, I'm really glad that this man was a judge. He picked the right career.
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. Now, the judges at Erdington were quite special.
- Speaker #1
That is quite the hot take.
- Speaker #0
That is, you know, that's a choice, I guess. Yes.
- Speaker #1
that a million murderers go free than one innocent man get locked up.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I might have added some stuff there, but... Well. If it wasn't Thornton, who the heck is it?
- Speaker #0
Well, oh god, we haven't even gotten to the verdict yet.
- Speaker #1
Well... Yeah, I guess it's true. I don't know how the jury's gonna vote on this one, actually. I mean, I'd be pretty, like, sweet if a judge is like, yeah, I think he didn't do it. I'd be like, oh, like, okay. I mean, like, you're a pretty trustworthy guy, I'd hope.
- Speaker #0
I think that's like the problem with like, cause this is not the only case of this where like a judge has been like, guys. guys it wasn't him and it's just like i don't think you can do that as a judge can you i don't think you can be like jury it's not him don't vote don't vote for him i don't know if that's a thing you can do anymore i think it's kind of almost ironic too for him to just be like hey don't listen to any other biases listen to me like yeah yeah don't don't think about like how weird he is and how much he can't run just look how honest he is look look at that face that face wouldn't lie oh yeah
- Speaker #1
I was like looking around for our faces if one was going to pop up.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so you can kind of imagine how that went. So he concluded his lovely two hour debrief and the jury conferred for six minutes.
- Speaker #1
A whole whopping six minutes.
- Speaker #0
A whole whopping six minutes. And they came back with the verdict.
- Speaker #1
Unanimous?
- Speaker #0
Unanimous. Not guilty. Wow. Yeah. The public was shook.
- Speaker #1
I'm shook.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, like, can you, like, as a casual bystander, but you just, I know it's all, like, mostly circumstantial evidence. Like, the biggest thing that's going for him is his footprints. But he also said that he was with Mary. So, like, it's not uncommon that they were walking to the field. He even said that they, like, had sex in the field.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. so yeah i don't know but didn't but i don't know but who else could have done it well see thornton's not done wait who yeah we're not done with thornton yet oh yeah so there was actually a faction that rose up to get a retrial they were like faction a faction rose up wow the people of erdington were like that is unacceptable that's impressive uh and the head of the faction no
- Speaker #0
surprise was mary's brother william okay he was like that's that ain't gonna fly. That was like an embarrassment of a trial. Like, no. Like,
- Speaker #1
how dare you call yourself a judge?
- Speaker #0
Right. And this was actually before Double Jeopardy was a thing. Like, I mean, he was officially acquitted. Like, if in modern times, like, that would be it. Like, he was declared not guilty. He couldn't be retried. But back then, back in 1817, that was like, it was totally fine to do that. They were like, I didn't like that trial. Do it again. That's cool.
- Speaker #1
Well, not really. But I mean, well, also, is Double Jeopardy a thing in the UK?
- Speaker #0
yeah i don't know i thought that was just like a u.s law thing that's that's a national like i mean the back then i've got it in my notes there's a law specifically in place saying that a family member could reaccused if a family member didn't like how the trial went of the victim specifically a family member of the victim could reaccused okay uh it wasn't just any member of the public but it had to be a specifically a family member of the victim and that law was changed two years later uh so i i Like, I'm pretty sure Double Jeopardy is a thing. I don't believe it's not. I've always grown up with Double Jeopardy. So from all the times that I've been accused. No, I'm kidding.
- Speaker #1
Very commonplace.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. You know, it happens. Yeah. So naturally, this faction, they sent out articles to a variety of newspapers. They handed out flyers. They were demanding a retrial because this was like a severe miscarriage of justice. They were like, no. That like there is no way. There's no way that that was just going to happen.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, and you have the suspect just walk out the door.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, like he was fed with blood in his undergarments. Like his shoes matched. Like he was with her the whole night. And the judge was like, no, it wasn't him. He doesn't look like he could lie.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. You see, that guy can't run.
- Speaker #0
No, he can't run.
- Speaker #1
He can't run. That's case solved. He can't run.
- Speaker #0
They can't run.
- Speaker #1
Did they even have him run? That would have solved the whole thing. They just had this guy run.
- Speaker #0
I do not believe they asked him to run.
- Speaker #1
This is a bad judge. Bad judge. Slap him on the wrist.
- Speaker #0
Oh, we're not even done. Oh,
- Speaker #1
God. Does he get worse?
- Speaker #0
It gets worse. So this faction, they appealed and they appealed, and so a retrial was granted. They were like, you know what? That was a bit of a mess. Let's do it again. So on November 17th, so this is many, many months later. The first one was in August. This is in November. So November 17th, Thornton was brought back before the court. The bizarre twist of this retrial occurred, however, when they asked for his plea. They were like, hey, Thornton, we're back at it again. You know the drill. How do you plea? And Thornton looked at the jury and the judge, and he was like, not guilty! And I am ready to defend the same with my body!
- Speaker #1
What?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. He then donned a pair of leather gloves. took one off, raised it above his head, and then threw it at the feet of William Ashford.
- Speaker #1
What?
- Speaker #0
He challenged William to a duel!
- Speaker #1
What?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. What? Trial by motherfucking combat.
- Speaker #1
Is that a thing you can do?
- Speaker #0
It was. In 1817, this was a thing you could do.
- Speaker #1
Trial by combat?
- Speaker #0
It was not a thing that people wanted to happen. They were like, that's kind of weird, but it was very legal. What? You could do it. So, yeah, the terms were very simple. If Thornton won the duel, he would be acquitted and he would be found non-guilty. What is that?
- Speaker #1
If I compete you in a duel, what?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, if he lost, however, he would be carted off to jail with the verdict of guilty. And he's challenged Mary's brother, William Ashford, to the stool.
- Speaker #1
I hate this.
- Speaker #0
Right?
- Speaker #1
They just have to honor this request?
- Speaker #0
No. William did not accept the stool.
- Speaker #1
Okay, good.
- Speaker #0
William and his lawyer kind of looked at each other and were like, what? Like, what the fuck?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, how do you not laugh at that? Like, you'd be like, haha, okay, judge, let's get chapter trial.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, they were like, we gotta get on with this. William and his lawyer actually claimed that they wouldn't allow William to become a catalyst of justice for his system, or they didn't want it all to come down to William's efforts. to fight Thornton. Yeah. But he also said that he wasn't willing to do it because it would just be giving Thornton an opportunity to murder him.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Straight up. I mean, like, both good points. I agree with William.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, William is like, I've literally been campaigning against this man for months. Like, he knows I don't like him. He's gonna kill me.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, why would I want to fight the murderer?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, he's like, he's gonna, like, literally commit the murder again on me. And the judge responded, let's not call this murder. It's perfectly legal to duel one another. Wow. Yeah, the judge was like, I'm not a vengeance. It's a different judge. Weirdly enough, there's a different judge. Oh my god. Yeah, and he was like, I'm actually kind of into this. I want to see where this goes. I will allow it. And everyone was like, what the fuck?
- Speaker #1
Oh my god. This board judge is just like, yeah, go on.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's like, it was kind of a boring Tuesday. Let's just see what happens. Oh, Jesus. William and the prosecution are just like, what? What?
- Speaker #1
So what do they do?
- Speaker #0
Unsurprisingly, the retrial did not go as planned for the Ashford family. And between the denial of the duel and the judges being weirdly sympathetic to Thornton again, they were like, he doesn't look like he can run. He's like, look at that guy.
- Speaker #1
He's ready to throw down and duel you, but he can't run. No, definitely not. Dueling and running two different skills.
- Speaker #0
Pretty much. So it was actually a panel of five judges for this ritual. And all five of them ruled. Yeah, they were all just like, this is fine. I accept this. So, the five of them kind of looked at each other and they ruled that there simply wasn't enough evidence to convict Thornton. There wasn't enough. There was no substantial evidence. They had a lot of circumstantial, but there was nothing that really pointed to him.
- Speaker #1
Oh, except the fact that he was there?
- Speaker #0
Except the fact that he could have been there, but he was also possibly three miles away talking to a milkman. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
but how reliable was that milkman? I don't get a lot of information on that milkman. I don't trust him.
- Speaker #0
You know.
- Speaker #1
Is he as reliable as this judge? Because...
- Speaker #0
These judges, they're doing something. They're smoking something.
- Speaker #1
Ugh, this town!
- Speaker #0
That's funny. Anyway, Abraham Thornton was officially declared not guilty again.
- Speaker #1
Again.
- Speaker #0
And he was released. Don't stress, though.
- Speaker #1
You win this time. You win this time, Thornton.
- Speaker #0
Don't stress. He did not get away that easy. Good. And this was really unfortunate. If he wasn't... if he wasn't the killer, this is really unfortunate for him, but the town was still convinced. Everyone was convinced except these judges. So after the trial, he was hounded by the people of Erdington and he was run out of town.
- Speaker #1
Oh my gosh.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. He fled to his hometown of Castle Bromwich and they were like, we don't want you. no we're good so he made a decision that he was like us you know the uk england knows who i am i'm not i'm not welcome here anymore yeah i'm gonna go to america well we don't want to eat it bud no they took him so he actually attempted he actually attempted twice uh the first time he hopped on a on a ship but the sailors recognized who he was and they threw him off overboard they were like no not not on this boat you can't be here yeah that's fun uh And then he successfully hopped onto a ship to New York. He was essentially banished from the UK.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, New York will take anybody.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It was later found that he did marry and he did have kids and he had faded into obscurity. And, you know, if he was innocent, that's great. I'm glad that he could move on with his life. But if he was guilty, like, wow. what a way to go what a way to go um so yeah so mary ashford's grave belief is still in erdington uh and it's capped with something called the murder stone what is that uh so a murder stone is essentially it's a grave header um but it's specifically intended to honor uh victims of murder oh so it has a little little epitaph on it and it reads as a warning to female virtue and a humble monument to female chastity this stone marks the grave of mary ashford you Who, in her 20th year of her age, having incautiously repaired to a place of amusement without proper protection, was brutally violated and murdered on May 27, 1870.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
yeah so the mary ashford case remains unsolved to this day nobody other than thornton has ever been tried with the murder there's been no other suspects it's it just stands unsolved and it's and it's still unsolved to this day naturally it left a very deep scar on erdington yeah yeah this was this was quite a shocker i mean if it wasn't thornton i mean there's still a killer walking around either way it's pretty leaves a bad taste in your mouth yeah it was yeah it was like like i said this is like this is a town just like any other this doesn't happen in these sort of towns so yeah like people were just they were they were kind of left bamboozled they're like well if it wasn't thornton there's a murderer and if it was thornton he got away so who knows who knows what what he got up to So, naturally, the events that happened 157 years later reopened a lot of old wounds.
- Speaker #1
157 years later?
- Speaker #0
157 years later. I said that this was two murders.
- Speaker #1
I didn't expect them to be so far apart. I expected the same judges. I'm glad it's not the same judges.
- Speaker #0
Not the same judges, but, I mean, it's not that much better.
- Speaker #1
Oh, dear.
- Speaker #0
So, this is where it starts to get a little bit, a little bit ooky. A little bit spooky.
- Speaker #1
Oh, gosh.
- Speaker #0
So. that's Mary, Mary Ashford. Now we're going to talk about the murder of Barbara Forrest, 157 years later in Erdington. So once again, yet there's very little information on who Barbara was as a person. It's shocking that there's even less information on her than there was on Mary. Like Mary's kind of got like the spectacle of the childlike combat kind of kept it going. But Barbara, like there's so little information on her and because of, of what I'm about to talk about, it all gets very muddy. So I found what I could, but there's not a lot on her. She's a big shit. So we do know that she was born either late 1953 or 1994. 1954, sorry. To parents Margaret and Gordon Forrest. Okay. And we do know that she had a sister named Erica. Hmm. A lot of my sources stated that Mary and Barbara had the same birthday, which would make her birthday December 31st, 1953, making her a Capricorn. But I don't know this. This wasn't in all of my sources. I couldn't find it a bit with her birthday. I'm not sure. But it's possible that their birthdays were the same. She was also devoutly Christian. Hmm. She had just turned 20, just like Mary Ashford. And she was at the time dating a man named Simon Belcher, who was 21 at the time. So Barbara was currently working as a nurse in a local children's home. She was kind of like, from what I could see, she was kind of like a social worker. But she also helped take care of sick children. and she was also the national secretary at the Lutheran Church Youth Movement along with Simon. Simon's father was the local minister at the time for Redicton.
- Speaker #1
So all around just a really sweet and nice girl.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, and she's beautiful too. She's a beautiful girl. You know, she's standing up for her community. She's taking care of children. You know, she's, you know, she's done nothing wrong in her life. She is, you know, she's literally like the poster child of living a good life. Wow.
- Speaker #1
Just tell us about what's horrible is about to happen.
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. So on May 26th, 1974, does that date sound familiar?
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
The couple attended a service. And it was, they actually led the service because Simon's father, I think he had to step away for the time. Mm-hmm. So the two of them worked together and they led this service on a day called Wit Monday.
- Speaker #1
Sure enough.
- Speaker #0
Same day. Like I said before, Wit Monday changes based on the year. On these two particular years, it lined up on the exact same day.
- Speaker #1
That's wild.
- Speaker #0
May 26th. yeah so much like mary ashford and her friend hannah cox the two were going to go celebrate in erdington and they were actually going to go i think a little bit out of town as well uh and they were just going to go to a couple of pubs they were going to dance the night away something to do you know, you gotta dance. Yeah. It was reported earlier in the month before the murder, Barbara had been reported saying, this is going to be on my unlucky month. I just know it. Don't ask me why.
- Speaker #1
I don't like that. So they both, they both knew.
- Speaker #0
Uh-huh. They both knew. So Barbara and Simon reported at several pubs along the way, and they had been seen dancing throughout the night. Their timeline is really, really unknown. I don't know which pubs specifically they went to. I know that they were pub shopping. I think it actually led them a little bit outside of Erdington. They were not in Erdington at the time that they ended their evening, but they were coming back through to Erdington. We do know that Simon walked Barbara to the bus stop at one in the morning. of May 27th, 1974. Okay. So she's heading home on May 27th, 1974. and he left her at the bus stop.
- Speaker #1
Like all good people do.
- Speaker #0
I mean, if he lived locally, I don't know what was going on. I don't know what was happening with Simon. He might have, you know, something had happened. He might have been called to work. He might have had to go clean up. I don't know where he was going. I'm not going to blame him at all. There's no way he could have known. This is also a sleepy town.
- Speaker #1
I'm blaming Simon.
- Speaker #0
It's a sleepy town. There's no way. Like, this doesn't, like, it happened to Mary Ashford 157 years ago. Like. I think bad things don't really happen. So, if all things had gone according to plan, it would have been a very quick bus ride back into Erdington, and then it would have been a 10-minute walk to get back home. Wow. Yeah, so that was kind of her path through the night. She was going to get on this bus, get dropped off back in Erdington, 10-minute walk home.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, and I'm sure there wasn't a lot of people on the bus back then. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
We'll talk about the bus in a little bit. After Simon dropped her off at 1 a.m., she disappeared. Of course. yeah Simon and her family didn't hear from her after that night she just kind of poof and since of course the Monday was a holiday nobody really suspected anything was amiss like you know she wasn't supposed to be at work it's a religious holiday yeah like she's just she's sleeping off her party um it was the the Tuesday she didn't work show up for work that was when the red flags were starting to sail yeah and the children's home actually got in contact with the family and they filed a missing persons report yeah It was on June 4th, several days later, that the body of a young woman was found. it was found in a sandy ditch in pipe haze park erdington oh i just got chills does that sound familiar yeah oh that's eerie as hell the body was covered not with water this time it was with bracken and trigger warning she had been raped and then strangled wow the body had been identified as 20 year old barbara forrest the body had been partially nude just like mary ashford you And she was found 500 yards away from her home.
- Speaker #1
Oh my God.
- Speaker #0
she was also right next to her workplace in erdington like it was like right down the path yeah and she was found 300 feet away from where mary ashford had been found 157 years before wow that's unbelievable that's so spooky i have legit have chills right now like that's what are the odds just wait just wait oh it gets worse so the police speculated that the attacker had hidden amongst the trees in the park and waited for her to approach before sneaking up behind her and attacking.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Okay.
- Speaker #0
Yep. um do we know for a fact where thornton was 150 years later you know just wait just wait yeah so it's actually unknown if she caught that bus the night um they actually went and rounded up and they interviewed uh passengers from that night and they claimed to have not seen her but this also could have been unpredictable eyewitnesses like when you're like taking the bus late at night you're not really looking at the people on the bus like yeah it's possible they just didn't see her or they weren't paying attention they were distracted like it could have been a number of things just because they didn't see her doesn't mean she wasn't there yeah there's also a theory that she might have gotten a lift from a friend so if she wasn't on the bus maybe like somebody that she knew or recognized saw her at the bus stop and they were like hey let me give you a lift back to erdington uh and then she got the car i mean it was only 1 a.m it was the night of a holiday so like people things like things hadn't like quite it wasn't like 4 a.m with mary ashford it was 1 a.m so like People were still out in the streets, but the party was still kind of going on. It was wrapping up for sure, but it was like, you know, like it's still a celebration. Yeah. There had also been reports of a blue car sighted that night on the path she would have taken to come home through the park. So people were like, maybe it was the blue car. Maybe it picked her up. Maybe it was following her. Maybe it was, but there was like, there was no, nothing concrete to go off of.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
uh naturally public was outraged they were like whoa what this doesn't happen yeah not in our town no and it's like barbara like we said earlier she was literally like she was the poster child of clean-cut living like she was she was beautiful she was clean she was you know devoutly religious she was taking care of children she was helping out the church you know she had a bright future ahead of her she had a you know a doting partner and then just gone snuffed yeah Yeah, pretty much like all of those pieces together, they kind of just fanned the fires of the public outrage. So the Erdington Police Department needed to get on it. And they did. So more than 100 detectives were part of this case. Oh, wow. Yeah. And the whole thing was spearheaded by Detective Superintendent Mick Lenahan. I hope I said your name right. I'm so sorry. I don't know if they're still active. This was in the 70s after all.
- Speaker #1
You did your best. As did I.
- Speaker #0
As we know, I'm alphabetically challenged and I cannot pronounce things for the love of me. So yeah, so the police got pretty involved. They interviewed the passengers from the bus. They actually went door to door in the neighborhood to ask if anyone had seen anything. The back stretch of road was Chester Road. They went door to door. they actually even held reconstructions of the crime, which I actually thought was kind of cool. They had a young police officer named Linda Madison posing as Barbara for the press. Like, so she, you know, pretended to be the, where the body was, you know, she walked along that path, you know, they took a lot of pictures. She wore the clothes that Barbara would have been seen in. Oh, wow. Not the actual clothes, but like, you know, like dressed as if she was Barbara and like try to recreate like how it could have gone down. So it's even jogged anybody's memories.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
uh the it was ruled that she had died on may 27th 1974 same day as mary yeah the cause of death was ruled a strangulation though she did not drown okay it's so wild that it was like the same yeah um and it was only in september of that year that they made an arrest wow yeah who did they finally get for it the man that they arrested was a man named michael ian thornton no way you no fucking way yeah any relation i don't believe so i don't believe that they were related because of course uh the abraham thornton went to new york afterwards and he lived life it's possible that uh one of his relatives did move back but from what i could see there was no relation i mean like did he have like a brother that stayed in town i don't believe so i feel like the the name of the the that family of thorntons were pretty like yeah they were pretty outcast i don't i don't know hold I don't believe they were related, but I'm not going to say that they weren't. It's possible, but I didn't find anything to say that they were.
- Speaker #1
It's just a small town, interesting last name, specific.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. But like how fucking wild, right?
- Speaker #1
I don't like it.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I don't like it.
- Speaker #0
Michael Thornton was 38 at the time and he lived along the road that she was found. Of course. He was also a co-worker of Barbara at the children's home.
- Speaker #1
Oh, okay. So he'd seen her.
- Speaker #0
someone she knew that she could have gotten in the car with.
- Speaker #1
Yep. And said, oh yeah, we live right next to each other. Yeah. Let me drive you home.
- Speaker #0
The police found bloodstains on Thornton's pants.
- Speaker #1
Mm-hmm.
- Speaker #0
Just like Abraham Thornton with the blood on his undergarments, he was found with bloodstains on his pants.
- Speaker #1
Please tell me they got this fucker this time, though.
- Speaker #0
Hold on. Also, he claimed he had an alibi, and his mother backed it up. I don't know what it was, whether he was hanging out with his mother the night before or if she just like, yeah, he was doing that thing. But it was proven false and it came out later that they both lied.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Mama's boy getting lied for by your mama.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Do with that what you will.
- Speaker #1
Don't like it, Thornton.
- Speaker #0
His alibi fell through like immediately. Like it didn't even, didn't even hold up.
- Speaker #1
That's sus.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, but just like in Mary Ashford's trial, didn't exactly go in the favor of the prosecution. What? The prosecuting lawyer even stated at the beginning of the trial that most of the evidence against Thornton was circumstantial.
- Speaker #1
But I mean... Yeah, you're correct. I can't argue with that. I have nothing to say to that. That is fact. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
it's, yeah, there was nothing. It's all very suspicious, but there was nothing concrete.
- Speaker #1
I don't like it. these Thorntons.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it was actually on the seventh day of the trial that the judge turned to the jury and advised them not to take circumstantial evidence to heart and that he didn't think Thornton was guilty.
- Speaker #1
Oh my gosh, these judges.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, he advised the jury to hand out the verdict of not guilty. Whoa, lo and behold. They did take longer than six minutes this time, but they did come back and were like, We don't think he did it.
- Speaker #1
Surprise, surprise.
- Speaker #0
Surprise, freaking surprise.
- Speaker #1
And while I do agree with, like, you know, they shouldn't take circumstantial evidence to heart, like you said. At the end of the day, you want a crime that is convicted solely upon, like, facts. And you want to make sure that it is true without beyond reasonable doubt. But for a judge to specifically say, I don't think he's guilty.
- Speaker #0
that's the extra stuff right and the fact that it happened twice yeah 157 years apart it's like moderate your judges erdington get it together yeah i don't know where this trial specifically took place i don't know if it happened in erdington or if it was in like a local town but yeah the fact that it happened twice real fucking weird yeah yeah And so it should be no surprise that everyone was pretty freaking outraged. They were like, what? Again?
- Speaker #1
I can't believe this. When we specifically asked you not to?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So. It should be no surprise that Barbara's older sister demanded answers. Older siblings stepping up.
- Speaker #1
Your older sister, William?
- Speaker #0
Oh, no, Erica is her name. Well, close enough. Yeah, you're right. Wilhelmina. No, Erica, who's a badass. She did not go as far as demanding trial by combat. That did not happen. I'm sorry. Michael Thornton was like, you know, not feeling the trial by combat. I'm sorry. Not doing that. It was also, I think, illegal at the time. but she has been like demanding answers for the past 40 years because this is unsolved still just like Mary's case 40 years it has been I mean like think about it Mary's case has been unsolved for 190 like nearly 200 years probably 200 years at this point so yeah so Erica's been like we need to get this case reopened. They need to relook at DNA evidence because now, like, back in the 70s, that wasn't a thing. But now we have all this technology.
- Speaker #1
We've got all sorts of DNA evidence.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it was actually in 2012, specifically 40 years later, that Erica demanded that they reopen the cold case back up and retest all the samples they took. She, like, remembered specifically they took a bunch of samples. You know, they had the pants with the blood on it. Of course, Barbara's body was pretty decomposed at the time, but maybe they took a rape kit.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Uh... The spokesperson from the police department stated that there were no further forensic opportunities to explore.
- Speaker #1
Meaning they did not have the evidence available, I'm assuming.
- Speaker #0
I don't know what it means specifically, but it pretty much sounds like the department either lost or destroyed the samples.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. That is some bullshit.
- Speaker #0
So, yeah. So, chances are the department lost or accidentally destroyed samples. It's not great. They even had other police departments go, you know, it doesn't look good. Yeah. The family of Barbara also requested to get Barbara's personal belongings back because, of course, it's been 40 years. And, you know, like, if there are no further forensic opportunities to explore, like, at least have their stuff back. I think they specifically requested some sentimental jewelry that she had. Yeah. They were gifted to her by her godparents. And they wanted her handbag back, you know, for a phone, wallet, you know, something. something to have that belonged to her. Yeah. Police departments ignored the requests.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. The family actually got... Sorry, yes?
- Speaker #1
I'm assuming, again, just because they lost these things.
- Speaker #0
Well, they got a newspaper. The family reached out to a newspaper like, hey, we're not getting any answers. They're ignoring us. Is there anything you guys can do? So the newspaper actually reached out on the family's behalf to the police department. They were like, hey, where's their stuff?
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
The police said that they could neither confirm nor deny that the belongings had been misplaced.
- Speaker #1
Yep. Okay.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, real good.
- Speaker #1
We can't 100% tell you, but we definitely, for sure, 100% have lost the items in question.
- Speaker #0
But, like, it's one job. Like, hold on to the evidence. Like, that's the one thing you shouldn't misplace.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, like you said, if you couldn't solve the whole thing, like, at least you hang on to the evidence. But you can't even do that.
- Speaker #0
What happened to, like, what happened? Like, how did they get lost? How did the samples get destroyed? Where is your stuff? Like, what? Like, did you guys move? Was there like a move that you like went from one office to the other and they were like, ah shit, we left it in the moving truck and we'll never see it again. Like, what happened?
- Speaker #1
It really does make you wonder, like you said, what could have happened. Like, did you just, like, I don't know, your kids came over and your wife's like, oh, look at this pretty jewelry. And you're like, yeah, they're never going to need it. You can just take that. Like, I just, it really makes you wonder, like, what actually could happen to these items? Or were things just, like, kept in such a way that, like, they weren't labeled? And then all of a sudden, so there is just this box of, like, oh, yeah, we don't know what that stuff is. Someone get rid of it.
- Speaker #0
like i don't know and we'll never know and that's it sucks because like that stuff could have solved her murder you know 40 years down the line there could have been anything on her jewelry on her handbag on her on her clothes and it's happening it's happened we've seen it with cases where you know the 40 year old cases are not that old comparatively and the people
- Speaker #1
are still alive as long as as long as there's evidence like you said that with something a trace evidence of something i mean but if you like think about
- Speaker #0
barbara's parents like i think her but i read her father is in like his 80s like and it's like i think they might pass away not ever knowing what happened to their daughter and it's and it sucks and it's horrible and like you also see what immediately comes to mind is like west memphis three and there's like that whole debacle going on right now where um the um police department there is like oh sorry there was a fire and it destroyed all the evidence yeah and then a lawyer went down a couple days later and he was like no it's right here i can see it on the table wow and they're like it's not there and they're like no it's literally right here i have a picture and i've sent it to everyone wow and yeah and they're and they've been denying they've had this evidence for years but it's actually just been in the back this whole time they claimed there was a fire and there was no record of a fire why would they cover it up oh well we'll talk about that if we ever talk about the west memphis raid which that is a that is a tough case and now we need to now we need to but uh that's we'll save that for our like seven part spectacular because that's a lot of information it's a lot of horrible information i don't know if i know about it you don't know oh well ma'am like if that one's worth that one's worth a whole fucking shelf in the spookery
- Speaker #1
Well, one day we'll get to it.
- Speaker #0
We will. We will. And hopefully by the time we get to it, there will finally be a conclusion because like things have been happening. Wheels are moving. Like now they know that the evidence is there. They just need the go ahead to just test it.
- Speaker #1
There's been a lot of a lot of movement on some old cases lately. There was the other. the Indiana case where the girls had a photo of someone in the background and someone was just finally arrested in that.
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, the Delphi murders.
- Speaker #1
That's what it is called, yes.
- Speaker #0
I, yes, they finally, they've arrested someone. I'm so excited to see what comes out of that because, like, daddy, daddy justice, man. All these people need justice.
- Speaker #1
They do. It's so unfortunate when you see these cases that... just have no resolution. The families have no actual closure on the situation. Yeah. And you just want it for them more than anything. And that is one thing. I think my hope with spookery and with everything, the more that we do talk about these things, like you said, and kind of give life to the victims in a way of just talking to them and sharing their stories, because that's really all we can do. Hopefully, maybe one day, the more that you do talk about it, an answer will arise.
- Speaker #0
no, a hundred percent. Like the more you talk about a case, the more people know about it. And then the more people who know about it, the more like people are going to ask for something to be done. And, and it, you know, all you can do is you just spread correct information. You spread the truth. Don't spread lies. Cause that, that defeats the purpose as well. Don't, don't sensationalize anything, but keep telling the stories of these people. Cause true crime is always true to somebody. Like these are true stories to somebody. they're not, you know, just, they're fun stories for us to talk about, but they are real. And it's good to just make sure that they stay alive, even if it's just in our memories.
- Speaker #1
That's true. A hundred percent. I agree with you as well.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. But unfortunately, that's how the Erdington murders end. Both cases are still unsolved to this day. 200 years later, this one, Barbara's is like, what, 50 years now? yeah they're both uh unsolved but neither case is closed so so there's still hope there's still there's still hope for both of these lovely uh lovely ladies hopefully we can get some justice for them uh but as of right now the erdington murders slash erdington coincidences are unsolved wow so let's recap on the similarities because this is what i thought about telling you at the beginning and i was like now i'm just gonna hold on to this so both victims were 20 year old women according to some sources, they had the same birthday, December 31st. They both spent their last night's dancing. Both left the party with a man, with a mans.
- Speaker #1
With a mans.
- Speaker #0
They were both devoutly religious. And it was actually, you know, specifically in their descriptions, devoutly religious. Both were murdered on May 27th in practically the same spot, 300 feet away from each other. Yeah. So both in a sandpit the morning after a religious holiday, Monday, both women were found partially nude. Both were suspected to be committed by a man named Thornton and both were raped and strangled, then left to die. Both Thorntons were found with blood on their clothes. Both had very strange alibis that were proven to be kind of shaky. And both Thorntons were acquitted. Judges in both cases were like, we don't think he's guilty. uh both victims also had those eerily similar remarks right before their deaths and of course both cases are unsolved that is truly it is it is crazy to have such similar cases
- Speaker #1
150 years apart in almost the same exact spot it just right same town same spot the fact that the suspects had the same last name like yeah what are the freaking chances and in both cases uh they were both the only people to ever be tried for the murder like there were never any other suspects other than the Thorntons in both cases yeah that is really wild too because usually there's at least someone else that they can go well if it wasn't this guy it had to be this guy and there just wasn't there was nothing you
- Speaker #0
no and you know especially in barbara's case that like suspicion never fell upon the boyfriend he was never even considered a suspect um he had nothing to do with it yeah he put her on that bus you know left her there and wished her the best yeah so that is uh that is the story of mary ashford and barbara forest uh hopefully one day we can get some answers you
- Speaker #1
but that's it that's the Erdington coincidences and I hope you guys enjoyed this what the fuck case of mine yeah those really are that's what the fuck like you said just crazy crazy coincidences who
- Speaker #0
would have thought I just right and yeah I had quite a few I wanted to pick from and this is the one that made my dad's eyebrows go whoa so I'm like okay this is the one we're talking about yeah uh But man, like, whew, ha!
- Speaker #1
No, I appreciate you coming with such an interesting case, ready to present, sharing this with me, because this is something I had never heard about. So even just getting to explore a new case and a new set of circumstances, as you put it, that's, I think, a really good, instead of just the Ernington murders, the Ernington circumstances.
- Speaker #0
Oh yeah, the coincidences. The coincidences. the coincidences and it's what they are it's just a whole heck of a lot of coincidences yeah and like and that's the thing to remember they're not related in any way shape or form they're not connected there's nothing to do with each other it's just this eerie strain of strange happenstances that happen to mirror each other Huh. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
It really makes you wonder. There's cause, I mean, even with the last ones we did, the fires, like those were all very similar. Um, yet. very different at the same time.
- Speaker #0
Oh, that was a thing I forgot to tell you at the beginning of the episode. I actually had another addition to your fire episode from my trip to Salem. Really? There was a spooky fire.
- Speaker #1
Wow. I need to hear all about that.
- Speaker #0
The Ropes Manor in Salem, there is a woman who burned to death inside the Ropes Manor, Abigail Ropes. Oh. And after her death, it was a long string of like... unexplained fires that all started in the same room the day that uh where she caught fire wow okay yeah it was there i was like and i was when i was there listening to the story i was like huh yeah there's another one well we need to add that to the spookery eventually too one day yeah oh i'd love to do a whole like salem stories episode but alas the wheel decides my fortune it's true we are we are just pawns in the bigger scheme of things It's this, the spookery wheel, the wheel of fortuna, filled with very spooky topics. So I guess it's that portion of the episode where I spin the big wheel.
- Speaker #1
It sure is, buddy. So we gotta take out, gotta walk over to the wheel, take out our two categories. Gotta take out, uh...
- Speaker #0
Take out the cults.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, cults and what the fuck cases.
- Speaker #0
Yep. There they go. Perfect. So, let's do it. Spin. I thought I was getting so nervous at this part. I'm like,
- Speaker #1
oh, I'm so excited. Oh, and? Okay. Drum roll.
- Speaker #0
My category is theft and fraud.
- Speaker #1
Oh, that'll be interesting. That is.
- Speaker #0
I don't have one for this. I don't think I do.
- Speaker #1
So this is like one of the only categories I feel like that you don't have a preloaded case.
- Speaker #0
It really is. I'm going to have to like. really dig deep for this one. I don't think I have something that I know off the top of my head that's theft and fraud. Okay. Challenge accepted. All right.
- Speaker #1
Spooky theft and fraud.
- Speaker #0
Theft and fraud.
- Speaker #1
That is going to be really interesting. I can't wait to hear what you come up with.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I will have about a week length of panic and then I'll be like, I gotta pick something!
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's basically what I've been doing. I had my week long of panic and now I'm like, alright, cool, I have my top three cults and I'm ready to pick and I'm super excited to dive in and share it with you next week.
- Speaker #0
Do you want to give us a teaser of your top pick for now? Or your top three picks? Do you want to torment us with something?
- Speaker #1
The one that I really want to do is kind of like, you know, we don't judge fetishes in this house, but it's kind of really feet related. And I'm just like, it was just really interesting to me. I don't know if I can make it into a full episode, but I'm sure I could.
- Speaker #0
You know, that's not what I thought you were going to do, but I'm really glad that you teased me with that one, because I'm now going to wait in suspense for the possibility that one day I'm going to hear about a feet cult.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, you know, they exist.
- Speaker #0
No, I'm sure they do. And you know what? It's valid, but don't ask me to get involved.
- Speaker #1
You know, I'll make sure the invitation is nice and pretty. It might sway you. no no no i'm good hey don't know you keep you try it no i'm good you don't know what we do you don't know what kind of food we serve uh on your feet i never specified podcast
- Speaker #0
over and that's the end of the spooker everybody and alana and i never spoke again after this day it all ended on the erdington murders three episodes was pretty good yeah No, I'm... No matter what you pick, whether it ends up being this one or another one, or ends up being two cults, I'm very excited to hear what you have to say, because I freaking love cults, because they're bizarre and full of just... I don't know. I almost said bizarreness again. That's not correct.
- Speaker #1
Swackiness. Cookiness. Craziness.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Spookiness.
- Speaker #1
Spookiness.
- Speaker #0
Yes. And that's why they belong on our shelf.
- Speaker #1
Absolutely. Yeah. I can't wait to add an addition next week. Thank you so much for your lovely case this week, both of your cases. I love that we've been getting, you know, we have these categories. Last week we got three, this week we got two. It's been, I think it's been going really well.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no, I'm excited to, I'm excited to keep going. And maybe, who knows, maybe my theft and fraud will end up being a two-parter as well.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, some of the categories just call for that. There's some that, you know, by themselves, they're pretty interesting, but together you're just like, oh, bam. Wowza.
- Speaker #0
Wowza. Specifically that, in quotes, wowza.
- Speaker #1
Wowza. That's, you know, I heard, I think, both of the people in Erdington, both of the investigators, top investigators, that's like their main quote is wowza.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I read that. They were like, there's a strange coincidence between 157 years apart, wowza.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. It's crazy that the first guy even said it because he didn't know that the next murder wasn't even going to happen. So it's pretty fun.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, he went and chatted with a Norwegian board and they were like, hey, something weird is going to happen in 157 years. You don't have to worry, but it's going to be pretty wild. And he was like, wowza.
- Speaker #1
Wowza, yep. Don't look it up.
- Speaker #0
No, it's... That's where, this is where the facts end.
- Speaker #1
True facts, TM.
- Speaker #0
Yes, the facts ended when I said unsolved. Oh, man. Right. Anything you would like to plug?
- Speaker #1
Ma'am, nope. Just this wonderful podcast. This is the only thing I got going on. It's my pride and joy. I'm so happy to be doing it with you. Keep listening to it, people. If you made it this far, we appreciate you.
- Speaker #0
Yes, if you did make it this far and you've enjoyed the last three episodes, I will say please consider leaving a review. Please give us a star rating. Leave a nice message. Don't shout at us, please. We're very sensitive. But yeah, if you consider if you like it, please consider leaving a review. It helps us get seen. It helps spread the awareness of the podcast. And we'll love you for it. And maybe if we get some fun ones, maybe we'll read them out loud.
- Speaker #1
Hell yeah.
- Speaker #0
yeah uh in the meanwhile you can find us at spookery podcast on twitter uh spookery podcast on instagram and you can send us a gmail at spookerypodcast at gmail.com uh send your stories send your corrections nicely nicely nicely we're set we're sensitive um yeah send your stories send your folklore send any suggestions you would like just make sure that you uh in the subject line you specify what your is if you're sending advice i know i can put them in the folder and
- Speaker #1
cry about it when i read it if it's just uh if it's just great things that we know when we can be like oh shoot hey guys we uh made a little mistake yeah whoops my bad yeah it happens
- Speaker #0
Yeah, you know, nobody's perfect. I gotta work it again and again until I get it right.
- Speaker #1
And with that Hannah Montana quote, we are out of here everybody. Thank you so much for listening to the third episode of Spookery.
- Speaker #0
Yes. Uh, yeah, keep going.
- Speaker #1
I was just gonna say keep it spooky.
- Speaker #0
Keep it spooky. I'm gonna impart my wisdom that I learned from my time in Boston, the best advice I've ever gotten. stay vertical everybody it's a good one i like that yeah stay vertical stay spooky zapped goodbye everybody Oh boy, she going.
- Speaker #1
Oh boy, she going.
- Speaker #0
Oh boy, she going. She's going.
- Speaker #1
She sure is. There she goes.
- Speaker #0
Oh God, where's she going? Where is she going?
- Speaker #1
Nobody knows.
- Speaker #0
And no one's going to stop her.
- Speaker #1
We let her do her thing.
- Speaker #0
She's got to let her go. Right.
