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Welcome to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. The show covering all things health, wellness, culture, and more. The show for all of us who aren't old, we're better. Each week, we'll interview superstars, experts, and ordinary people doing extraordinary things, all related to this wonderful experience of getting better, not older. Now, here's your host, the award-winning Paul Vogelzang.
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Welcome. To the Not All Better Show Smithsonian Associates Interview Series, I'm Paul Bolesang, and today's episode takes us to the heart of one of history's most critical periods, a time when the future of Europe and the world hung in the balance, but rather than battlefields or the halls of power, our story today begins in the quiet countryside of Kent, England, at a place called Chartwell, the beloved home of Winston Churchill. In the 1930s, Churchill was not the wartime hero we know today. He was a man out of government, politically isolated, and with few allies. Yet, it was at Chartwell, from the center of British politics, that Churchill launched his most crucial campaign, sounding the alarm against Nazi Germany. It was here behind closed doors that Churchill convened with great minds and trusted advisors, figures like Albert Einstein, T.E. Lawrence, and even American diplomat Joseph Kennedy, seeking intelligence, building alliances, and preparing for the storm he knew was coming. Our guest today, Smithsonian Associate Historian Catherine Carter, will be presenting at Smithsonian Associates coming up. And the title of her presentation is Churchill at Chartwell. Check out our show notes for more details about Catherine Carter at Smithsonian Associates. But we have Catherine Carter today, and we will talk about Churchill's Chartwell. Catherine Carter has spent over a decade managing the house and its remarkable collections. Catherine Carter joins us to discuss her latest book available at Apple Books, Churchill's Citadel, Chartwell, and the Gatherings Before the Storm. In this fascinating where Catherine Carter unveils the little-known meanings that took place there and the critical influence they had on Churchill's eventual rise to power and the course of history, get ready to explore the untold stories of Churchill's quiet yet powerful citadel. And now let's welcome Catherine Carter, Smithsonian Associate, to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. Please stay tuned. You won't want to miss this incredible look into a pivotal moment in history.
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Smithsonian Associate Catherine Carter joining us today. Welcome.
- Speaker #3
Thank you so much for having me.
- Speaker #2
So nice to talk to you. I'm really excited to get into this book too. Of course, the title of which is Churchill's Citadel, Chartwell and the Gatherings Before the Storm. Excellent book. Getting so... Many rave reviews online. We're excited to talk to you about Churchill, always a fascinating subject for our audience. Tell us a little bit about your upcoming Smithsonian Associates presentation and how you use Zoom to engage our audience. We're all on Zoom these days. And so what's going to be a little different about your presentation for us?
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So the presentation for Smithsonian Associates is going to be taking a deep dive into, first of all, what Chartwell was to the Churchills, because ultimately... It really helps to kind of contextualise the role it took on in the 1930s, if you understand how it came to be in his possession and what it meant to him. And then once we're at the start of that fateful decade where Churchill is sounding the alarm around the rise of Nazism, these meetings that take place behind the closed doors of his country house, which are very little known, some never before discovered by historians at all, and exploring the conversations that happened, but also the wider context. Why were these incredible cast of characters? making their way to Winston Churchill's country home and each of which contributing to his strategy, first and foremost against Nazi Germany, and then in due course against appeasement with Nazi Germany. So events that took place that changed the course of history.
- Speaker #2
Thank you. As I say, I just think this is fascinating because we know a fair bit about Churchill's mindset and we know a fair bit about Churchill's writings. We get to know a place now in Chartwell, which I just thought was amazing because it's a place that really had impact on Churchill in so many ways, just as you suggest. And so how was it that Churchill and the Churchills created this environment to have this kind of an impact, this place that became this location so that others could gather and support Churchill after kind of a relatively down period in his life?
- Speaker #3
Well, Winston Churchill bought Chartwell in 1922, and he lived there for the rest of his life. So it's hugely connected. to the latter half of his life in the story of events that took place over those years. In buying Chartwell, Winston Churchill bought a house, which at that point was in relatively easy commuting distance of London. So you get to work in less than an hour. But at the same time, it was pretty remote in the sense that the nearest village was a few miles away. And the estate itself is about 80 acres. So it's a sizable house with glorious views. That's why Winston Churchill bought it, really, for the views more than the house. So we had this place that was an easy reach of London, but remote enough to be private. And so when it came to those years when he was out of high political office, when he was an MP on the back benches of Westminster trying to mount this campaign against Nazi Germany, he had somewhere that people could reach, but where they could feel they were able to talk in confidence with him. And ultimately, Chartwell sort of metamorphosed at that point from this beautiful rural idyll to a campaign headquarters where intelligence and information was being brought to him, not just by... British officials, but actually from individuals around the world and diplomats and politicians coming to Chartwell, because at that point, Winston Churchill was one of the few people in open opposition to Nazism and what was playing out in Germany. So if you were someone who had the same opinion, and you wanted to somehow get this information to a person who was making that campaign already, the way to do so was to go to Churchill's house. So it played this incredible role of a repository of knowledge and intelligence, which Winston Churchill made. much use of across his speeches and his articles in the
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1930s. And there were plenty that shared his views on opposing Nazism. You talk in the book about Albert Einstein being one of Churchill's visitors. I mean, just a cast of characters that would visit T.E. Lawrence, subject of Lawrence and Revy, the film, and so many others. What was perhaps one of the most important meetings that Churchill had there at Chartwell? And why do you think it was so impactful?
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It's quite hard to distill it down to the most important, if I'm honest, because as I was writing the book, originally I started with 28 meetings and I distilled it down to 12. So even those 12 are, you know, the absolute top tier. What's remarkable is each of those meetings takes place reflecting events over the course of that decade. So, for example, Albert Einstein's visit right as early as 1933, just a few months after Adolf Hitler becomes chancellor. He is visiting Churchill to essentially tell him about. anti-Semitism playing out in Germany at that point under Nazism. So that's right at the start of Hitler's time in power. But then as the decade wears on, it's individuals who can bring information around German rearmament. So how much Germany is preparing for war so that Winston Churchill can then use that information in his speeches. And then by the end of the decade, you have representatives of heads of state and heads of government wanting Churchill's ear, even though he's still not in power at that point, but it was so apparent by that point. that war was inevitable and Winston Churchill, who'd been making the case for the best part of a decade now, was going to ascend to power in the very near future. So the 12 over the course of the book in their own way, each contributed towards Winston Churchill's strategy and thinking over that decade.
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A real important time for him known as his wilderness years. And you say Charwell is about an hour outside of London, but it could have been much further because it really did shape Churchill. in some unique ways with regard to his speeches, his time away from government. Maybe give us a sense as to how it shaped this, how it took some of his mindset, his speeches, how that developed at Chartwell.
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There's absolutely a direct correlation between the information being brought to Churchill at Chartwell and what he then, the case he is then making either in the House of Commons or in the articles he is writing. So, for example, you have the former French Prime Minister, a gentleman called Pierre Flandin, who comes to Chartwell bringing France's understanding of Germany's increase in sort of rearmament and getting ready for war. And Winston Churchill then goes into meetings with politicians in Westminster with the information he has gleaned from the French, comparing that with English estimates and sort of saying, you know, well, there's a gap between these and here's why there's a gap. And actually, we should be more worried than we are as a nation. So... There is absolutely direct application and usage of information that he might well not have gleaned in that way had he not had this country house that people could get to. And I should say for anyone visiting Chartwell today, it's a bit more than an hour now because of the expansion of London over time. But at that point, it was a much easier journey between Westminster and Chartwell.
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Well, I encourage all to pick up Catherine Carter's new book, Churchill's Citadel, as well as to go visit. the Charwell and see it in person. I imagine it is an amazing place, just chock-a-block full of all of this wonderful history that took place. Churchill also had a personal life there too. And so maybe give us a sense as to how the personal life intersected with his government strategizing, because the two were hand in hand for this man.
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They definitely were. One of the things I'm most proud about with this book is that, yes, it charts these incredible meetings, but it's also a history of the life of that house over those years as well. For example, you have the lives of the children and what's playing out in their lives. You've got even the staff, the secretaries, the fact that they are working late nights every night because Winston Churchill works on dictation until 2, 3 in the morning. And you've got these remarkable women, but they're exhausted and they're writing letters to people saying, I don't get to see my friends and family anymore because all I do is work at Charlottesville Winston Churchill. So you've got this sort of mixture of high politics and diplomacy, but also the everyday life of a running of a country house and what happens to the family that's there. So for example, as well, you've got Winston Churchill's daughter, Sarah, midway through this decade in 1936, elopes with a gentleman that she's met from her job at that point is as a dancer. performing in theatres and she meets this gentleman Vic Oliver that Winston Churchill does not approve of and so she runs away. So you've also got that side of things as well. So the Churchills are having to deal with their lives as parents as well. There's also financial worries across this decade. There's health concerns. So all of this plays out alongside this kind of much bigger picture of trying to desperately make the establishment in Westminster see that we needed to be preparing. for war because Germany was ultimately preparing and if we didn't soon we would be at a disadvantage. So it's this really kind of perfect rich tapestry of everyday life but also these monumentally important events which will inevitably in due course play out on the world stage when Winston Churchill becomes wartime leader. I argue that if it wasn't for the meetings that took place at Chartwell which then put him in a position of knowledge and authority to be returned to government in 1939. he might well not have been appointed as prime minister the following year. So these meetings really are so, so important to understanding Winston Churchill and the role he played during the war.
- Speaker #2
Richard Averbeck Churchill most certainly brought the government to Chartwell. Would you use the word refuge to describe Chartwell? Was that part of it for him too? Was it a meditative place for him to think through what was happening throughout the world?
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Anne Ashworth Chartwell has a sort of, almost like a dual role, I would say, throughout most of the time that Churchill's are there. Anne Ashworth At one point, his factory, this phenomenal output of words and politics and writing, I mean, over the course of his life, he writes more than William Shakespeare and Charles Dickens combined. And a huge amount of that is in the study at Chartwell. And there's enormous pressure as well, because writing is his main source of income and his finances are on a knife edge for a lot of his life. So there is a need for this constant output of words and articles and books. But at the same time, it is this incredibly beautiful country estate that inspires his paintbrush. For example, Winston Churchill painted more than 500 paintings over his life. And there's a lot of them that are showing the beauty of the landscape where he lives. And there's also things like his bricklaying. So if anyone doesn't aware, because it's not an obvious thing, Winston Churchill participated in bricklaying. There's an enormous walled garden at Chartwell where he laid the bricks for those walls over the course of about seven years. And for him, it was almost a sort of escape. If pressures and frustrations were getting too much, he could immerse himself in a task where you're doing this sort of repetitive, all your thought is in your hands and what you're creating. And there's a great letter that Churchill writes to the prime minister in 1928 saying, I'm writing 2000 words a day and laying 200 bricks a day. So he has both of those elements. It's the escape, but also the factory. So it depends on what role he needed to play at the time.
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Hi, it's Paul. Do you love? entertaining, informative, eclectic, insightful programs about culture, health, science, life, and everything Smithsonian? As part of our Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast, we're introducing you to the new Smithsonian Associates streaming series. Smithsonian, a non-profit organization, is excited to present this new aspect of their 55 years as the world's largest museum-based educational program. Join us from the comfort of your home as we periodically interview Smithsonian Associate guest speakers. Our audience here on radio and podcast can explore our website for more information, links, and details at notold-better.com. Thanks, everybody. Our guest today, of course, is Smithsonian Associate Catherine Carter, who's written the wonderful new book, Churchill's Citadel, Chartwell, and the Gatherings Before the Storm. Congratulations again. on the book, Catherine Carter. It's wonderful. The research is just tremendous. I found the book to be so well-received online. I found this great review saying, meticulously researched and highly readable. Wonderful combination, a fascinating book written from an entirely unique perspective. That's from Annie Gray, who's the author of Victory in the Kitchen. I thought that really said an awful lot about the book. I really thought, too, that this combination of intelligence gathering that took place at Chartwell by Churchill influenced him to the extent that I really didn't know. Hard to not be influenced by T.E. Lawrence, hard to not be influenced by Albert Einstein. Who do you think really brought this war warning to Churchill's attention in a way that shifted it? in Churchill's mind to become this real element of his future government?
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I would say that actually it was Churchill's own observations that first kind of lit that flame. So Winston Churchill, in the introduction to my book, I explain how he had gone to Germany in the summer of 1932. So whilst the Nazi party were the largest party in the Reichstag, Adolf Hitler wasn't yet chancellor, but it was already becoming very apparent that there was to use Churchill's phrase, a war mentality playing out. And Churchill makes a speech in November 1932 saying there will be another conflict with Germany if steps aren't taken immediately. I mean, how prophetic is that in 1932? So this is seven years before Britain's declaration of war. And virtually from that moment on, the campaign is being mounted by Winston Churchill. And what he's doing is he's bringing people to his country home who he can either glean insights from. or those who he hopes to persuade to come around to his way of thinking. So, for example, Joseph P. Kennedy's visit in 1935 is a really interesting one. That's actually an example of one that didn't go Churchill's way, because actually, if every meeting over this course of this decade went his way, then he would have come to power and influence far sooner. It was a rollercoaster of a decade. And in that case, it was Winston Churchill trying to persuade Joe Kennedy of the potential for some sort of Anglo-American naval police force is sort of what he's pitching in that meeting. So even though he's a backbench MP, which in British politics, you have a constituency represent, but you're not in government. And at this point, Winston Churchill's party aren't even in government. And yet he is making these strategic plans for how to defend Britain years before war actually breaks out because he is so convinced by what he's seen in Germany. And then by what he is hearing in due course from these meetings at Chartwell, that he is... strategising almost how he would defend Britain years before he needed to because he felt so certain that he was right, that his gut instinct was correct. It was actually an incredibly courageous period of Churchill's career. He's going against the prevailing consensus in Westminster. Most people for whom the First World War is very recent memory and a lot of people, perhaps understandably, are willing to secure peace at all costs. Winston Churchill's really going out on a limb saying, no, we can't keep our heads in the sand. we've got to be preparing for war. And each of these meetings gave him the information to strengthen that campaign.
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You really have this fascinating focus too in the book about the pre-war years and Churchill's approach to all of this, the role of the location itself. What was it that inspired you with regard to that? Because again, we know a fair bit about Churchill's time in office, but what I really found interesting was just this mindset. prior to, and just as you suggest, just a moment ago, how foresightful that was and prescient. He really had a sense as to what was going on in the world.
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Winston Churchill, by the 1930s, had already been having high political roles in British politics since, I think his first point was 1905 to 1908. So, you know, there's a very long time in which he's been playing the political game in Britain and understanding how things worked. Since that first appointment in 1905, he has risen to... pretty high levels in British politics. He's been Home Secretary. He has had the role of First Lord the Admiralty during the First World War, which is essentially heading up Britain's navy strategically. And so all of these roles that he's had before contribute to his understanding. And I should say, as well as that, even before his political career, he has been a soldier. His first career was serving for the British Army. So he also has this kind of strategic understanding. He's got the political understanding. He's also got the kind of historian's eye. So as I mentioned earlier, his main source of income was always writing and the writing of histories was his primary output. So he would analyse military and political history of the past and he could see parallels between the tyrants of history and their strategies of territorial expansion and what he was seeing emanating from Nazi Germany, you know, from the remilitarisation of the Rhineland to the Angelus with Austria, you know, these kind of steps. which Churchill could see very clearly were part of a wider policy of territorial expansion that would in due course lead to war. But as we know from events over the 30s, there were plenty of people in British politics who were just acquiescing. in the hope that peace would continue. But that was unfortunately a rather hollow hope.
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Well, Catherine Carter, final question for you. As author of the book Churchill's Citadel, certainly you've had a lot of hands-on experience. Maybe tell us about your work at Chartwell and how that influenced you writing the book.
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I have worked at Chartwell now since 2013. So I'm about to have my 11-year anniversary.
- Speaker #2
Congratulations.
- Speaker #3
Thank you very much. And my role there is as curator. which for six years of which I had the enormous pleasure of living on site as well. So there is actually a number of residences across the estate, which members of staff occupy. And my one as curator was in the rafters of the house itself. So actually in the building, though I hasten to add in the servants quarters at the very top. So much less grand than the Churchill's rooms. Still very, very good, but fewer chandeliers, I can assure you. But. I think because of having that time there combined with as well as living on site and the years spent there doing research, I developed a really strong sense of how the building worked. And even things like, you know, knowing what each different sort of creek the building made meant and the way that the light would fall across the gardens in different ways at different times, depending on the season. You know, there's just something you get from being immersed in a place 24-7 that gives you a real sense of how it worked. And I think for me, that just spurred me on to want to tell this story about the 1930s. And I should add that the 30s is the period that Chartwell is dressed as. If you come to Chartwell today, informed by the Churchill's own expressed preference, having lived at Chartwell for that time and also my understanding it from years worth of researching it and curating exhibitions and displays, but also my awareness of the the 1930s was the period the Churchills wanted their home to be immortalised in. So the Churchills were there for 40 years, but the decision was made by them that the 30s was what they wanted visitors today and future generations to see. So that gives us a clue that even the Churchills thought that this period was of such significance. And so I sort of pulled at that thread and went, well, hang on, let's look through their diaries. Let's look through their correspondences. Let's see exactly what played out. in those rooms and behind those doors that changed the course of history. And the conversations were just so remarkable. And for me, I just feel so, so proud to be able to shine a spotlight on the importance of their country home beyond the fact that it is Winston Churchill's house and it's a house he lived in for a long time and that he loved it. Like I said, events there changed the course of history in a way that I think as Chartwell's curator, I'm just so excited to get to share with everyone.
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Well, we're grateful that you have. And Smithsonian Associate Catherine Carter has been our guest. Catherine Carter will be appearing at Smithsonian Associates coming up. Please check out our show notes for details about her upcoming presentation, as well as more information about our wonderful new book, Churchill's Citadel, Chartwell and the Gatherings Before the Storm. Congratulations on all the research, on the wonderful book that you've written and all your work there at Chartwell. Selfishly, I'd love to have you back. I could talk to you for a lot longer time today, Catherine Carter, but thank you very much for your time today. Join us again, and we look forward to seeing you at Smithsonian Associates coming up.
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Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure, and I can't wait to do this Smithsonian Associates talk. It's going to be a really fun one.
- Speaker #1
My thanks to Catherine Carter for her generosity today in her wonderful new book, Churchill's Citadel. Catherine Carter will be presenting at Smithsonian Associates. Please check out. our show notes for more information. The title of our presentation is Churchill at Charwell. Please check out everything that we've got on Catherine Carter. You're just going to love this book, including her upcoming presentation at Smithsonian Associates. My thanks to Smithsonian for their ongoing support of the show. For all they do, my thanks to executive producer Sam Hanegard, his work on sound design and making the show the success it is. My thanks to you, all of you online and via terrestrial radio. Please be well. Be safe. Let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. Thanks, everybody. We will see you next time.
- Speaker #0
Thanks for joining us this week on the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. To find out more about all of today's stories or to view our extensive back catalog of previous shows, simply visit notold-better.com. Join us again next time as we deep... dive into some of the most fascinating real-life stories from across the world, all focused on this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show.
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I won't find no thing. Please check out our website for this episode and all episodes at notold-better.com or subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts and be sure to check out your local radio stations to find out more about The Not Old Better Show on podcast and radio. You can find us all over social media. Our Twitter feed is notoldbetter and we're on Instagram at notoldbetter2. The Not Old Better Show is a production of NOBS Studios. I'm Paul Vogelsang and I hope you'll join me again next time to talk about... Better, the not old better show. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next week.
