- Speaker #0
Welcome to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates'interview series on radio and podcast. The show covering all things health, wellness, culture, and more. The show for all of us who aren't old, we're better. Each week, we'll interview superstars, experts, and ordinary people doing extraordinary things, all related to this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Now, here's your host, the award-winning Paul Vogelzang.
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Welcome to the Not All Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. I'm your host, Paul Vogelsang. Today we have an inspiring episode that promises to leave you feeling hopeful and empowered. We need a little bit of that these days. Our guest is the remarkable Susan Solomon, a pioneering atmospheric chemist whose groundbreaking work in the 1980s was crucial in solving the ozone layer. crisis. Smithsonian Associate Dr. Susan Solomon will be appearing at Smithsonian Associates coming up, so please check out our show notes today for more details about that. In her new book Solvable, How We Healed the Earth and How We Can Do It Again, Smithsonian Associate Dr. Susan Solomon draws from her extensive experience to argue that while we face daunting environmental challenges, they are not insurmountable. Today with us, Dr. Solomon will share stories of environmental victories from diverse heroes, ranging from scientists to everyday citizens, demonstrating that collective action can lead to monumental change. I think this is going to bring you the hope that we all need right now. Smithsonian Associate Dr. Susan Solomon will share insights from her expedition to Antarctica, where her discoveries led to the Montreal Protocol, a landmark agreement that successfully curbed ozone-depleting substances. Dr. Solomon will also discuss the parallels between past environmental successes and the ongoing fight against climate change, highlighting the power of public awareness, political will, and innovative technology. You're going to want to hear this. So throughout our conversation, we will be exploring all of these things, especially in relation to our 50 plus age audience, all of us in the Smithsonian Associates audience, and how we can play a pivotal role in advocating or supporting environmental causes. Dr. Susan Solomon's message is clear. Healing our planet is a collective effort and every action counts. So sit back and get ready to be inspired by one of the leading voices in environmental science. This episode is a testament to the power of human ingenuity and determination, and it's a call to action for all of us to join the fight for a healthier, more sustainable world. Let's welcome Dr. Susan Solomon, Smithsonian Associate to the program. the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. Dr. Susan Solomon, welcome to the program.
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Thank you so much for having me.
- Speaker #1
It's great to talk to you. I don't think any of us are going to be too surprised about our subject today. Your wonderful book, Solvable, is going to be the subject of our conversation, as well as your upcoming Smithsonian Associates presentation. All of this is a little... daunting and I'm talking about climate and weather and what we're all facing. You have a really wonderful way of putting that and we'll get into that here momentarily. But why don't we start by you just describing a little bit about your upcoming Smithsonian Associates presentation. We're all on Zoom these days. And so maybe tell us a little bit about how you'll be using Zoom to engage our audience. But let's start there and then we'll jump into Solvable. Well,
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I much enjoy giving talks. And I always feel that any talk, whether it's live or on Zoom, to make it successful, you have to make it almost like a movie. You have to use images that carry the listener along. And of course, you know, what you say associated with the images is also really important. But I really try to make it vibrant and moving. People tell me that it usually succeeds. So, I probably enjoy it so much that that enthusiasm comes through and carries the day anyhow.
- Speaker #1
That's great. I appreciate that. I think enthusiasm goes a long way in making something interesting, approachable. And in my research of you, I certainly have found that to be the case and that you're very passionate about this subject that comes through loud and clear. And I think that's important to any. audience, a lay audience or a scientific audience. From a science standpoint, you started with this subject with the ozone crisis in the 1980s. You did work, of course, before that, but are known for some of your work on acid rain. What are some of the lessons that you've learned throughout all of this study that are applicable to tackling this big subject of climate change today? Well,
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when you go back and look at past environmental problems, one of the things that I think is just astonishing and more people should know about. is how successful we've been at actually managing a whole series of them really remarkably well. I mean, the signature environmental success story, of course, is ozone depletion. People who remember back in the 80s when we signed the Montreal Protocol and agreed to phase out chlorofluorocarbons, you know, we've actually succeeded in doing that worldwide in the ozone. layer is on a path to healing. We've averted a global catastrophe. How cool is that? But what came out of really thinking hard about that was how important citizen engagement in the problem actually was. The whole thing started with not the discovery of the ozone hole, but actually with the abstract idea that chlorofluorocarbons might affect the ozone layer sometime in the future. That was in 1974, 12 years before the ozone hole was even discovered. But It was enough to get people in America to voluntarily start giving up spray cans because most of the use of chlorofluorocarbons back in those days was in literally your medicine cabinet. Hairspray and underarm deodorant was 75% of the global use of chlorofluorocarbons. So Americans turning away from that put enormous pressure on industry. It actually didn't happen in Europe. But it shows how important citizen engagement is. And it literally knocked the market out from under the American companies. And that sort of set up a steamroller that then I think led into what happened. Certainly science is important always. I always like to tell my students science alone is never enough, but it's always, always necessary. I could go on at length on this, but I think I'll just say that one of the best examples of that is the smog problem. in Los Angeles, where at first was clearly an issue, but it was different from London smog, which had a very sulfury kind of smell. So, science had to figure out that it was related to the automobile. And that was a real triumph of scientific knowledge, but it wasn't enough to give you policy. It had to have that citizen engagement, it had to have policymakers who were interested, and the policies have to steer the technologies in such a way that industry can and does respond. We'll probably talk some more about that, but maybe I should pause there and say that. So, in short, it's really the engagement of citizens, the scientific basis being clear-cut enough, policymakers being able to respond to that citizen engagement, which in a democracy is what happens, and then the technology steering. And in all of that, I like to talk about three P's. We solve a problem when it's personal to us. Nothing could be more personal than, say, cancer because the ozone layer gets depleted and you end up with skin cancer. So it has to be personal. It should be perceptible to you. And when you look at, say, the smog problem, it's awfully perceptible when you start coughing. And then you have to be convinced about personal solutions. So those three P's, personal, perceptible, practical, are really threaded throughout all these environmental success stories. Well, those are the lessons that my book tries to convey in a nutshell.
- Speaker #1
It's an excellent book. Again, we are with Dr. Susan Solomon, author of the wonderful new book, Solvable. We'll talk more about that too. And I do want to get into some of these other issues of technology and so forth. But you mentioned Los Angeles, and I'm drawn to this idea that certain geographic locations on Earth are quote unquote hotspots for study. You led an expedition into Antarctica. And in particular, I'm wondering about how the three Ps might apply. to Antarctica. What did you learn there in Antarctica that applies to us with regard to climate change? Because we hear a lot about the ozone layer above Antarctica and elsewhere. And so what was it so much that drew you there?
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Well, when I first went in the 1980s, it wasn't to study climate change per se. It was to study the fact that suddenly this hole in the Antarctic ozone layer had opened up. People had been measuring ozone since the late 50s. For about 25 years, it stayed pretty constant. And then, boom, it was like started falling off a cliff in the late 70s. It's just absolutely remarkable. The British Antarctic Survey deserves a lot of credit for having done that. But I had the honor to actually lead the first expedition to go to Antarctica and try to measure not just ozone itself, but also the chemicals that were affecting it and try to figure out what was causing this weird thing. In terms of it being… perceptible. You don't see the ozone layer with your eyes. It's not something you can visually see. That's good because it's between you and the sun as far as ultraviolet goes. It would destroy your eyes if you could. if it wasn't there. The visuals that were pretty easy to generate using, for example, satellite imagery of how the ozone hole opens up and closes every year. I mean, it just looks like the monster that ate New York. It's just amazing to see those. And they were broadcast on the nightly news. It was enough for people to pretty easily understand the problem. So that's kind of what I mean by perceptible to Antarctica. It's best, I guess, if you can see it with your own eyes. But if you can't, and it's... easily understood scientifically and well-explained by trusted sources, then people accepted that pretty quickly and reacted accordingly by throwing away their spray cans. That's an easy action. And with climate change, of course, we have some actions we can do, which are relatively easy and that are certainly good for nibbling away at the problem. Like you can choose to walk more, you can choose to eat less meat, you can choose to do a lot of things. We'll probably talk about that later. But... Certainly what we need is a bigger lift in terms of the energy system.
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Hi, it's Paul. Do you love entertaining, informative, eclectic, insightful programs about culture, health, science, life, and everything Smithsonian? As part of our Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast, we're introducing you to the new Smithsonian Associates streaming series. Smithsonian, a nonprofit organization, is excited to present this new aspect. of their 55 years as the world's largest museum-based educational program. Join us from the comfort of your home as we periodically interview Smithsonian Associate guest speakers. Our audience here on radio and podcasts can explore our website for more information, links, and details at notold-better.com. Thanks, everybody. Again, our guest today is Dr. Susan Solomon, Smithsonian Associate, author of the new book, Solvable. The book really is getting great. attention. I so enjoyed it. Thank you for sharing it. I just want to recommend it to our audience. But it's not just me saying these wonderful things about your book. I really thought what Fred Krupp from the Environmental Defense Fund said about the book, which I thought is worth saying here. Fred Krupp said, insolvable. Susan Solomon rolls up her sleeves and digs into the lessons of past environmental problems, including DDT and acid rain to inspire our hope for the future. Dr. Solomon shows how today's problems, though daunting, are also solvable. Excellent quote from Fred Krupp. And I think that just says so much. Let's talk about just this idea of being able to implement one global policy, just one that might help us with climate change. Tell us a little bit about what that would be right now and how you believe it would have just significant impact in relation to what we're facing with climate.
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Well, when I joke about it, I say, can I start with getting rid of those gas-powered leaf blowers? No.
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They're a nuisance from a noise standpoint, too, I'll tell you. Yeah. Oh, gosh. We won't go there today. That'll be another.
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In terms of one single policy, you haven't decided whether it needs to be a practical policy or not. So I'm going to mention a perhaps impractical policy. But really an interesting fact that if we were to just. decide as a planet today that we were not going to build any more new fossil fuel infrastructure. So no new power plants, no new gas stations, no new non-electric vehicles. That actually would be enough to keep global warming under two degrees C. Most people don't realize that. They think we have to get rid of everything we already have. That's actually not true. We can let it age out naturally under its normal... lifetimes of operation, even of long-lived things like power plants, which we keep for 50 years, that would do the job. We would have to, of course, replace it with non-fossil energy or with, say, clean energy. It could be fossil if it's sequestered and put back in the ground if the carbon doesn't get to the atmosphere. In terms of something maybe, so that would be fantastic. It's a difficult lift. More locally, modernize our grid would have a huge, huge impact. We could replace the wires that we currently use to carry power with carbon fiber, which would modernize them, strengthen them, do lots of good things for us, and also transmit twice the energy over long distances. So that's one of the things we need to do if we're going to make the transition in this country effective. We also need to build out our charging stations. People are reluctant to purchase electric vehicles because they think there's not enough chargers. And fair enough, that can happen. It's probably more in the hands of states and localities to use the available funds that are in the Inflation Reduction Act to get going on doing this more effectively. But those things are all happening. We just need to accelerate those things. The big one is to stop building new infrastructure, and that'll be tough. But I think we can get there. Certainly in this country, we're well on the way.
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That's good to hear. I think that does offer an awful lot of hope. We hear an awful lot about renewable power. We hear about wind. We hear about some of the alternative methods. Are we far enough along technologically that those can step in now and provide us with some ability to meet our world energy demands? Yeah,
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it's amazing. One of the reasons I think people are confused a little bit about how practical making the switches is because they are basing some of what they know on old information. And this thing has been evolving so fast. So we've gotten to the point now where in 75% of the world, if you're going to build a power plant today, the cheapest power plants to build are renewables, solar and onshore wind. You're not going to build a gas plant anymore. If you're a smart utility company, you won't do that. Coal, by the way, is one of the most expensive. So you can think all you want about bringing back coal or other ideas, but frankly, it's just uneconomic. So it's great. I think we're really on the cusp of success because of the advances in technologies, the growth of cheap alternatives. Also, by the way, the innovations in batteries and the cost of batteries has also come way down. We do still worry about things like lithium, but there's a lot of research now on alternative battery technologies like sodium and iron, which are much safer. I'm not too worried about the future of batteries. I think there's enough work going on to mean that as we need more battery capability, that's going to come along. So, yes, we have the technologies. We have to invest the money in making those changes. But we're investing anyway in a power plant. Why not build a clean one? Those are, for us, I think, very doable propositions. When it comes to the developing countries, it's a much more difficult thing because there will be a need at least for technical assistance and probably economic assistance, which is all part, that's why that's all embedded in the Paris Agreement. And I'm really optimistic. We just have to keep going and not be distracted by the size of the problem, which is large, but we've handled large problems before, and I think we can do this.
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The political divisiveness seems to be a large problem, and that's a worldwide issue for us. What is it that we need to do to convince world leaders and industries to really mobilize behind some of these subjects so that we can find some common ground to pursue this? It seems, just from a very lay perspective, that we're at a crisis point while solvable is there, and you talk about that, still seems like we have a bridge to get to some political. kind of reality and acceptance about this issue.
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Yeah, no doubt the political divisions in this country are serious and they pervade just about everything that we talk about. Sometimes when I'm as a person who's done a lot of work on environment, it sort of gives me hope when I realize, hey, you know, it's not just us, it's not just environment, it's... everything is part of this horrible cultural war. There's no question that fighting against the disinformation, misinformation, and working more towards a more unified way forward is definitely what we need to do. I do think by and large, the younger generation is moving that way. So, I can expect to see some improvements there. You know, certainly the internet doesn't help. That's another thing I often reflect on that. gee, are these problems really solvable in an internet age? Again, more difficult in an internet age, but probably not insolvable. And we're now realizing the need to, I think, more carefully, I don't want to necessarily use the word control, but at least moderate the information that is distributed on the internet because some of it is so, so terribly damaging. So, you know, again, I see a lot of movement that... I think will help, but I also will come back to the economics of it. It's just practical to go this way now. And it's not very practical to do other things. So how long can you prop stuff up? Well, here's a good example. The Inflation Reduction Act, people have now talked about, oh, could it be repealed? In principle, it's possible. The president can't just sign an executive order and repeal an act of Congress. It'd have to be repealed by Congress. But, you know, over a dozen Republican congressmen just wrote a letter saying. Let's not do that because this is such a great program because it's bringing resources into our states. I think the states will move this along. And I think that you are in a position now with enough forward economic momentum that while it might be slowed down a little bit, we're not going to be stopped. So it will be solvable. But we have to hurry. No question. We have to hurry because the more of those bad infrastructure investments we make, the more we have to unwind later on is a bit of a problem.
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How do. Our audience of Smithsonian 60 plus generation tackle this. What can we do individually? Motivate us a little bit. Inspire us. Tell us what we can do besides buying electric vehicles. What are some other things that we can do to kind of mobilize this effort to really galvanize around this and get this moving forward?
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Number one thing, of course, is vote, vote, vote, vote. Number two thing is lots of personal actions. Small actions do add up. If we change the demand for. dirty energy by a few percent. It's not like giving up spray cans, but it's still enough to get the attention of the companies. So things like choosing cleaner fuels, getting more efficient refrigerators and dryers into your home. Actually, your dryer is a big sink for energy. Use the clothesline if you live somewhere where you can and you want to do that. But I think probably for us, honestly, the best thing we could do is take a look at our investment strategy, make sure that where we're investing our money follows our values. So if you're concerned about this problem, look for investments that don't actually reward the fossil fuel companies. And actually, if you take a hard look at your investments, you'll find, as I have, that a surprising number of things are sending money to those companies. But you can choose. I mean, I'm not going to give specific investment advice here, but just about any 401k has options that are much, much more oriented towards clean energy than others. That's a big hit.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I've noticed that, too. I think that does bear repeating that a lot of funds, a lot of retirement funds, 401k funds have an environmental list, a group that you can choose, you can elect to be invested in.
- Speaker #2
And they've been doing very well, too, by the way.
- Speaker #1
Uh-huh. Dr. Solomon, I wonder if you could tell us maybe a lesser known success story from your book, Solvable, something that we might not know as much about, but still had enormous impact on us.
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Another story that I find amazing is what happened with the beginnings of fighting against smog in Los Angeles. So we all know that Los Angeles had the world's worst smog problem in the 60s and 70s, really bad. comparable to what we now have in Beijing and New Delhi. And it was so bad that it was sending children to the hospital with asthma attacks. And what that did was galvanize a group of mothers, a group of women who got together and formed a group called Stamp Out Smug. And these were not just any ordinary mothers. These were women who were very well connected in the Hollywood sphere. So it was wives of producers and... the wife of Art Linkletter, I believe, and other famous people in Hollywood. So it's kind of sad to think that they were all wives and that the producers themselves, that wouldn't be the case today. But we're talking about different times. We're talking about the 60s, early 70s. But they were so effective because they knew how to get attention because of their exposure in Hollywood. So they actually put on their pearls and took their children in hand and marched around protesting, and they got a tremendous amount of attention on the problem and really helped to galvanize the beginnings of the anti-smog movement, which was so important in California, taking effective action on smog. That's wonderful.
- Speaker #1
Thank you. Again, Smithsonian Associate Dr. Susan Solomon has been our guest. She's the author of this wonderful new book, Solvable. I just encourage you to check this out as well as Susan Solomon's upcoming presentation at smithsonian associates we'll have lots of links to find out more information about dr solomon her work and her upcoming presentation at smithsonian associates i just love the quote dr solomon that you say healing the planet is a long game And it's one not by fear and panic. So leave us with just one additional inspirational message around this long game notion, but that we really do need to get going on it.
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We all get a little intimidated when we think about climate change, just the size of the problem. But I think we have to really take heart in the fact that it is something people, more and more people are becoming so concerned about. People now accept it in a way they never did before. I've spent a fair amount of my career. literally fighting against people who wanted to say it wasn't even happening. You don't hear that anymore. That's just not going to be successful. Everybody knows it's happening. Just look around. Experience an average summer. It's not going to be like it was before. It's become personal. It's become perceptible. As we talked about in the last few minutes, it's absolutely eminently practical to fix. So we just have to get on with it. And we have to stop the noise of the people who say we can't. That's their last refuge, that last P, that practical P. Now they just have to say, oh, but it's not practical. But actually, it is practical. We're so close. We're on the cusp of success. We just have to keep going.
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Well, thank you, Dr. Susan Solomon. And thanks so much for your enthusiasm. I appreciate it. The book, again, is wonderful, solvable, how we heal the earth and how we can do it again. Check out. Dr. Solomon's upcoming presentation is Smithsonian Associates. Check out her new book. And Dr. Solomon, we will hope to hear again from you because I think this is a subject our audience is going to want to know more about. And as you do more work, please join us. Congratulations on the book and all of your work. But thank you so much for your generous time today.
- Speaker #2
Thank you so much for having me. It was great.
- Speaker #1
My thanks to Smithsonian Associate Susan Solomon for her generous time. You can find out more about Dr. Solomon, including her upcoming Smithsonian Associates presentation titled Solvable, How We Healed the Earth and How We Can Do It Again. That is the title of Dr. Solomon's new book. You're going to be talking about that an awful lot in the future. You'll find all of this information in our show notes today. My thanks always to the Smithsonian team for all they do to support the show. My thanks to executive producer Sam Hanegar for his audio direction. And my thanks to you. our wonderful audience here on radio and podcast. Please be well, be safe, and let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. Thanks, everybody. We will see you next week.
- Speaker #0
Thanks for joining us this week on the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. To find out more about all of today's stories or to view our extensive back catalog of previous shows, simply visit notold-better.com. Join us again next time as we deep dive into some of the most fascinating real-life stories from across the world, all focused on this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Let's talk about Better, the Not Old Better Show.
- Speaker #1
Hi, one final thing. Please check out our website for this episode and all episodes at notold-better.com or subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts. And be sure to check out your local radio stations to find out more. about the Not Old Better Show on podcast and radio. You can find us all over social media. Our Twitter feed is notoldbetter and we're on Instagram at notoldbetter2. The Not Old Better Show is a production of NOBS Studios. I'm Paul Vogelsang, and I hope you'll join me again next time to talk about better. The Not Old Better Show. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next week.
