Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data." In this episode, we're covering: How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to pay The "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growth Why most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphs The Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BS Why writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneurs How Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeople Check out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too! Timestamps: 01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research 06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research 10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis 12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story 17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey 19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him 21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity 23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship 27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo? 30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships 34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors 39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting 42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st) 44:30 Closing Remarks and Farewell Show Notes: Ryan's LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryansorley/) Blindspots on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Blindspots-Ultimate-Building-Win-Loss-Program-ebook/dp/B0DYG9DMWR) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering: Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong) Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teams The one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your results The critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers miss How to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediately If you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective. Timestamps 01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages? 02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach 04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems 05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals 06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation   09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing 12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making 16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging 19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness 22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon 27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing 29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable 34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing 35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework 38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit) 41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences 44:35 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways Show notes: Victoria Rudi's (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriarudi/) Messaging Frameworks Message Market Fit (https://message-market-fit.com/) - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates. Freckle.io (https://www.freckle.io/) - The Clay alternative talked in the example Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time! The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about:  ✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it ✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃‍♀️ ✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer ✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important ✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart? ✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research ✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path? ✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role ✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date 🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024! Timespan: 00:59 Introducing the Guest 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights 09:45 AI in Product Marketing 20:45 Working with Sales Teams 25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis 26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits 28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification 29:01 The Buffet Analogy 33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept 36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment 42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing 48:04 Closing Remarks and Farewell Shownotes: Follow Michelle on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Gong.io (http://Gong.io) (for sales call analysis) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Perplexity AI (for deep research) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool) (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer. Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai (http://Copy.ai), says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing. ✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce). ✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact. ✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts? ✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation. ✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact. ✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews). ✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling. ✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs. If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥 Timespan: 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast 00:16 Meet the Hosts 00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman 01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective 05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO 07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue 12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition 15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs 19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy 21:28 AI in Sales Enablement 22:40 Impact Over Quantity 23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise 25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer 30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function 34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates 39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI 41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth Tips Show Notes: Kyle's LinkedIn Profile (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyletcoleman/) Copy.ai (http://Copy.ai) Christopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned" Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about: 🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix 🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers 🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master 🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common 🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence 🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!) 🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter 🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there 🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personas Listen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧 Timespan: 00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions 00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business 09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing 16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics 18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders 23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas 24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports 25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM 26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM 34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts 39:47 Final Thoughts and Farewell Show Notes: Chanel LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chanel-chambers) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value. Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization. Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that. The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact. Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup). Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.” How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius. This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford. Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks! Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates.   If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you. What You’ll Learn in This Episode: → The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams → Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content → The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign → How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling → The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing → The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands → When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception → How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers say Listen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome 02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed 04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing 06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing 14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies 23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing 26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective 26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content 28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration 28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas 29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content 29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging 31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language 34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes 36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting 43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution 48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects Show Notes: The Reeder Website (https://www.thereeder.co/) Reed between the lines podcast (https://open.spotify.com/show/5u2UnlSJjYE7YVQZpLCJza?si%3D4a131cc9da094fb6) Devin’s LinkedIn  (https://www.linkedin.com/in/devinreed/) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms.  Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision.  How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast. How we’ve turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community. The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view. Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape. Message testing and building a relatable brand voice. Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Episode Context 01:32 Meet the Hosts 01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast 02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show 04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing 06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View 09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas 12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers 21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing 24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective 25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment 26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement 26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities 30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression 35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work 40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final Thoughts Show Notes: Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025 (https://www.navattic.com/report/state-of-the-interactive-product-demo-2025) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work? In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore: The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career. Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer. How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success. Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur. From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career. Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive. 🎧 Tune in now and discover why "no one is coming to save you"—and how that's the best news yet. Show Notes 00:00 Introduction and Welcome 00:27 Betting on Yourself: The Fractional Route 01:15 Personal Experiences and Challenges 02:42 Unlearning In-House Habits 04:29 The Importance of Confidence and Mindset 09:36 Sales and Client Management 17:35 Intentional Trade-Offs and Financial Stability 30:40 Evolving Your Process and Building Confidence 31:34 Navigating Isolation and Finding Support 33:24 Balancing Work and Personal Life 34:43 Reframing Challenges and Embracing Growth 39:05 The Power of Community and Shared Experiences 43:48 Crafting Your Unique Offer and Building Foundations 47:42 Obsession and Dedication: The Path to Success 51:50 Final Thoughts and Reflections Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job.  Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers). Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like. He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!). In this episode, we’re covering: The importance of understanding your target audience Why research can help you communicate your product value The difference between storytelling and the format Challenges of PMMs and if they are marketers Common startup mistakes in messaging The best time to drink beer So grab a beer with us and let’s chat product marketing 🫡 Timespan: 00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers 00:55 Meet Our Guest: Peter Kortvel 01:55 Diving into Product Marketing 09:27 The Role of Research in Marketing 14:19 Challenges in Startup Marketing 23:49 The Role of Storytelling in Video Content 24:38 Challenges of Storytelling in B2B Marketing 26:08 Understanding the Audience's Problem 28:18 The Importance of Clear Communication 31:38 Creating Aha Moments in Marketing 36:25 The Concept of Visual Cold Calling 46:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Show Notes: Peter’s LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterkortvel/) Product Marketing Newsletter (https://productmarketingnewsletter.com/) Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.