#117 - He sold a bottle for £1.2M: Tim Triptree MW, International Director of Wines & Spirits at Christie's Auction House | Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Description

Ever wondered what it actually takes to sell a single bottle for over a million pounds? This episode takes us inside Christie's, the auction house that has been selling wine since 1766, with someone who stands at the rostrum himself.

We sit down with Tim Triptree MW, International Director of Wine & Spirits at Christie's, in Macau, where he's judging the Wynn Signature Chinese Wine Awards, to trace his path from investment banking to the world's oldest auction house, and to unpack exactly how a bottle goes from a private cellar to a world record hammer price.

Tim walks us through his unlikely route into wine, what it takes to pass the notoriously brutal Master of Wine exam, how Christie's verifies that a bottle is genuinely what it claims to be, and why Chinese wines might be the next big thing to hit the secondary market.

Expect a 1.2-million-pound bottle of whisky, a champagne dosage deep-dive, and a very honest take on why Bordeaux still dominates the room. Tune in!

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My name is Antoine, and I’ve been passionate about wine for several years. I knew nothing at first, so I went out to meet the biggest figures in the industry and turned those encounters into a podcast that’s now listened to by over 100,000 people. I now share with you what I’ve learned, and I hope we embark together on a beautiful wine journey to discover the finest experiences.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Tim.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for taking the time for this interview. I know you've had some busy days before today. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Chinese wines, about auctions, about wine valorization, a lot of things like that. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Well, my name is Tim Triptory. I'm the International Director of Wines and Spirits at Christie's Auction House and I'm also a master of wine And so, yeah, I'm obviously a judge at the Wynn Signature China Wine Awards. So hence, I'm here in Macau. So, yeah, that's me.
Speaker #0
So how did you start your wine journey?
Speaker #1
Well, I mean, I kind of, you know, grew up in a family, obviously not connected to the wine business at all. I mean, I used to drink a little bit of wine as, you know, my parents did, you know, and, you know, they gave me some wine when I was a kid. But yeah, I kind of studied psychology as a degree. So I'm from the UK. So from a small county called Wiltshire. So in the countryside in the UK, not many vines there, obviously. You know, I suppose with global warming now there are some vineyards obviously planted in the vicinity, but not really in that area. Actually, it's more in the sort of southeast of the UK. So yeah, so I studied psychology as my degree. Um, so after university, I, I wanted to work in banking, um, so investment banking, um, which, um, I did. So my first career was in investment banking. Um, so I worked, um, um, in sort of equity research, um, helping, um, analysts put their sort of, you know, um, well, their sort of whether they should buy, sell, whatever, um, their reports together. So, um, so yeah, it was, you know, I would, I kind of never imagined that, you know, I'd be working in the wine business really. So, um. But yeah, I left the banking industry after I kind of enjoyed it, but I wasn't passionate about it. And so I decided to take a career break and go and learn a language. So I went to Mendoza in Argentina to learn Spanish.
Speaker #0
Learn the language? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was living in Mendoza, surrounded by vineyards. I mean, obviously, you know what everyone should know. But Mendoza is the province where 80% of wine is produced in Argentina. So, yeah, I got to meet a lot of people that worked in the wine business. And then I kind of thought, okay, well, actually, why not a career in the wine industry? So I kind of did it. I started a sommelier course when I was in Mendoza, did that. And then I was sort of Googling, looking for further education in... in wine because obviously i had a very you know i had a cv that was you know business like banking yeah exactly and nothing to do with wine so um so i saw um back in the uk there was an mba in wine business management that was offered at um the royal agricultural um university in cirencester which is about agriculture obviously um and they had some experimental vineyards and so they offered this in their business school. So... I kind of enrolled on that course, came back to the UK, did that for 18 months as a mature student in my sort of, you know, mid-20s. Got that MBA and then that helped me then at least have some sort of, you know, qualification in wine to then be able to get some employment in the UK. So I started working at Majestic Wine, which is a retailer that's quite well known in the UK. And yeah, and then got the job. at Christie's as a junior specialist in 2005. Okay,
Speaker #0
so it's been 20 years already. Yeah,
Speaker #1
over 20 years. So yes, exactly. Yeah, so I started as a junior specialist and I've sort of worked my way up from junior specialist to, you know, specialist to senior specialist. And now I'm international director at Christie's. And I guess, yeah, I mean, I can explain what my role is at Christie's, which is, so I'm, Yeah, being the international director, obviously, I'm responsible for trying to get business wine and spirits consignments into our auctions internationally. So we at Christie's, we have auctions in London, Hong Kong, New York and Los Angeles. So I'm trying to get people to sell their wines and spirits in these locations. Bye. Obviously, then, you know, the whole process from kind of, you know, the inspections, the authentication, the condition reports, you know, I'm involved in that. I'm doing valuations is, you know, a big part of my job because we do sell a lot of, you know, fine and rare wines that are, you know, mature vintages that are, you know, quite rare and pretty difficult to price, to be honest. because a lot of the wines we're selling is maybe they're They're not in the market. It's difficult to find. So that expertise of doing valuations, I think, is key. I'm an auctioneer. So I stand up in the rostrum with a gavel. That must be quick. Yeah, it's quite exhilarating. I mean, particularly, yeah, if you've got a lot of bidding coming, it can be great fun. And also, I do kind of talks, masterclasses, and sort of act as a… I guess, a kind of wine and spirits ambassador for Christie's globally. So actually, after being in Macau, I'm heading off to, I'm going to Hong Kong, going to Bangkok, and then going to Tokyo. And I'm doing some kind of masterclasses and a few little events just for, you know, some key clients. And so that's the sort of thing I get up to, really.
Speaker #0
So just to come back a little to the beginning of your career at Christie's, you said you started as a junior specialist.
Speaker #1
specialist what does it look like uh in terms of like working at christie's being a junior specialist is just like you arrive and you try to find wines like what do well i mean yeah i guess more back then as a junior specialist you're more involved in the kind of the processing um of the the kind of you know the the wines and or the auctions you know so it's more of a kind of I mean, there is obviously your... developing that expertise but it's more about the kind of you know second part of the process yeah the processing so it wasn't really uh the business getting like you know the sourcing of consignments that wasn't really um part of my remit back when i first started so it was just learning the ropes um you know learning how to value wines learning how to inspect wines um you know when when we're looking at old vintages of of wines i mean um you know the the kind of the condition is is key so you know the the conditions of the labels, the capsules, particularly the ullage level. So, you know, of the wine. Yeah, exactly. Interneck, you know, base neck, top shoulder, whatever. You know, we need to make sure that everything that we're inspecting is, you know, in good condition, is saleable. The colors of the wines are good. And so because obviously we don't want to be putting stuff into an auction, putting wines into an auction that is sort of out of condition if, you know, if it's a white wine, if it's gone really bad. brown or if it's a red wine and it's lost its red color then you know that that kind of inspection is is key so as a junior yeah you're i'm i was kind of told what to do to be honest and and um so um so yeah but it was it was a great obviously learning experience and and i had you know great team um in london that were sort of instrumental in in in my career really um um so um i mean one of them chris monroe he's still at christie's he's um head of new york now but um um david elsewhere. who sadly passed. He was a great boss. And obviously Michael Broadbent as well, who's a master of wine. I mean, he was around when I first started at Christie's and was pretty influential in my career. And it was quite, yeah, I mean, yeah, he obviously wrote amazing books. And I mean, I'd asked him to sign one of his books that he'd written. And I kind of read it afterwards and he said, dear Tim, I have full confidence in And... you becoming a master of wine one day so um i was like well that i use that as a kind of a motivation to to to you know to you know do the master of wine and eventually um succeed at passing the the master wine which is obviously quite a difficult exam
Speaker #0
to pass coming from uh from michael broadbent it must have been a kind of a good encouragement to to get past the master of wine yeah when did you go for master of wine well i started studying for the master wine in 2010
Speaker #1
Um, so I previously I'd done the WSET diploma, which a lot of people do as a stepping stone onto the master of wine. Um, so I started in 2010 and then I passed, I passed the theory on the first attempt. Um, then I, that year I'd failed the tasting. Then the next year I was very confident that I would pass the tasting and I think I did worse than the previous year. But, um, but then, um, and then I, I, I had a gap because I moved to Hong Kong in 2013. So it was a new role in Hong Kong, still at Christie's. So it was a sort of a secondment.
Speaker #0
Still adaptation to life.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was just, yes, exactly. You know, different environment, a lot of, so I focused more on kind of, you know, that and didn't really have the time for studying because studying for the Master of Wine, you have to sort of dedicate all your kind of, you know, your weekends, your social life kind of obviously, you know. particularly around exam time, you're sort of saying, no, sorry, I can't go out. I'm studying. So, yeah. And then also, obviously, the exams are back in London. So, for the first two years I was living in Hong Kong, I wasn't in the program, but I rejoined and then managed to pass the tasting in 2016. So, the blind tasting is what I guess most people struggle with in terms of, you know, they're passing their qualification. So I did that in 2016 and then took a couple of years over my research paper, which I did on champagne, which was actually great fun to do because I got to go to champagne quite a lot, develop a real expertise in the region and the wines, meet great winemakers.
Speaker #0
You've been acclaimed for these tastes as well, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yes, exactly. I won the Noval Award, sponsored by Quinton Noval, for the best research paper in that year. So, yeah, it was, so that was, that was in, and so 2018 is when I finally, you know, got the, the award of Master of Wine.
Speaker #0
And was it like a stepping stone to becoming an international wine director for Christie's or was it?
Speaker #1
I think, yes, I think it helped. Yes, it was, it helped. But, but yeah, I think it was, yeah, it was a stepping stone onto that.
Speaker #0
And so your thesis was about champagne.
Speaker #1
So I looked into the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage and assessed over a 20-year period whether there'd been any significant changes in the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage. So I found over that sort of 20-year period from 1995 to 2005, I guess I was studying, sorry, 2015. um that um uh the the use had significantly increased of reserve wines so so um champagne producers were were using much higher proportions of reserve wines in their brut non-vintage so producing a more you know complex style a richer style rather than a kind of um you know more of a a sort of a you know yeah well obviously reserve wines had that sort of aged element that complexities so um so i think um yeah it was yeah i mean it kind of was related to dosage levels as well. So during that time, as reserve wines were going up, dosage levels were coming down. So there's a relationship between those two because obviously dosage, adding sugar, was a way of kind of masking that raw base kind of vintage that was the majority of Bruton on vintage. And so if you add more reserve wine, then you don't have so much of that. raw sort of very acidic base wine so um you don't need so much exactly yeah yeah um you're based in hong kong no no so i moved um so i was in hong kong for four years so 2016 i'm then moved back to london and yeah i live in london now how do you um how do you source uh the wines that you're setting i guess it's a kind of a battle with other
Speaker #0
other um uh like
Speaker #1
agencies or i don't know how we yeah i mean it's competitive yeah it's very competitive um uh out there but um i mean um obviously well christie's is a as a an auction house um um so yeah we've we yeah i mean we've been doing um sales since uh 1766 so um that very first sale that um james christie did included wine so you know we're continuing that kind of tradition today So, I mean... we you know that obviously helps because a lot of people around the world you know know the christie's brand yeah so we do get quite a lot of people approaching us but then i also have to be proactive and try and contact people that you know i think have big collections um and try and convince them to to you know sell their their wines um um and spirits at christie's so well
Speaker #0
I guess you must have your method, but like you... You look for people recently buying old houses, people like, I don't know, like a succession in big families.
Speaker #1
A little bit like that. I mean, yes, there's obviously many different elements to getting wines. I mean, at Christie's, I mean, we have got a big network of colleagues around the world. We've got, you know, offices, I think, in 40 different countries with, you know, representatives that are, you know. very close to kind of, you know, the collectors that are in these respective countries and cities. So, you know, a lot comes through them. But I mean, doing things like going to Bangkok or going to Tokyo and meeting up with clients, you know, that's a good way of developing business. But I guess, well, we quite often say that, you know, death. um divorce and duties so i mean you know like you know so um you know if people um have a big tax bill maybe they might sell some wine or you know but i mean i mean that's a bit of a joke but but you know it's um but nowadays it's i mean we look back and see who potentially has been buying a lot of wine from us over the last few years and then you can and then yeah because um a lot of people who are you know collectors of wine probably will collect a lot of a lot of wine and and decide okay well maybe you know if their tastes change or their circumstances change or they just realize that they've got far too much wine that they can ever drink then you know they're probably you know right before selling through through christie's yeah maybe they want to like sell part of the collection buy new wines after exactly yeah yeah that goes wider in diversity and yeah exactly i mean you have to monitor your cellar as well your collection You can't, you know... Wine has a finite life. So, you know, you've got to, yeah, maybe replenish it with younger vintages. And so, yeah, collectors are often sort of, you know, selling some of the older stuff and buying some of the newer vintages.
Speaker #0
So there are two things that are super interesting about China, I guess, for you. And so we can, like, do these two parts. The first one is about the Chinese clients, because I guess over the, like, past 30 years, the number of Chinese clients to Christie's and the interest to wine by Chinese must have like surged dramatically. And the other part of the question is the interest for Chinese wines. I guess that 20 years ago, it was, I won't say impossible, but I guess that Chinese wines were not even a topic for auction house. I guess it's, I don't know if it's changing yet, but maybe in like a few years, you would start to have... really expensive Chinese wines and where Chinese wines that you want to auction as well. So these are like my two interrogations. So maybe we can start by Chinese clients.
Speaker #1
I mean, I think the big catalyst for this was 2008 and when the duty on wine was reduced to zero in Hong Kong. And that led to a boom of interest in wine in the region. So certainly, I mean, yes, since then. um it's yeah been hugely important to to um yeah the wine industry in general really the fine well the fine wine industry certainly um so it yes it that was very important um and um yeah i mean obviously it's um you
Speaker #0
know hugely important to christie's maybe not only china but also asia southeast asia yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah i mean it's yeah i mean a lot of people will
Speaker #1
maybe store their wines in Hong Kong nowadays because of the, you know, the ease of getting wines into Hong Kong. And then, you know, they come to Hong Kong and enjoy, you know, drinking their wines in Hong Kong. So, yes, yeah, exactly. And then getting to your question about, you know, wines from China. Yeah, I mean, yes, they don't appear in the secondary market, really. I mean, maybe. Yeah, I think so. But them. But certainly, I mean, from the wines I've been tasting in the awards, there's certainly potential for these wines to be appearing in the secondary market, I think. Obviously, yeah, there's some, you know, famous names, you know, the Au Yun from LVMH, you know. But yeah, I mean, the quality is getting higher than ever. I've been doing this competition wins for three years now. And I think, yeah, each year the... the standard of the um the wines that we're tasting is um um being higher than ever and um obviously i can't give anything away about who's won or well i don't know actually to use one everything is done blind so but i do know that you know we've been awarding many more medals um this year than than previously so um so yeah i think the standard is higher than ever and Obviously, you know, I think it's a sort of a virtuous sort of... um circle um because you know doing something like the win awards where you're um rewarding those top winemakers in in in china um for their wine so they get recognition for what they're doing then that gets obviously fed back so you know then they will you know there'll be more sort of you know um i guess well obviously they'll be happy and emotional that inspiration for you know improving further so um So, yeah, I think, you know, yeah, who knows? Yeah, in the future, I think it could certainly be, yeah, wines from China appearing in the secondary market.
Speaker #0
And even for others, it can be a good benchmark and inspiration. You know, if you didn't get a medal, you still have the feedback from the judges.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
You can.
Speaker #1
taste your neighbors see what's going on why did they get a medal then you try to improve and yeah yeah and on and on definitely yeah exactly yeah yeah so yeah i mean we you know as judges when we're judging this competition we're you know we're writing tasting notes for all the wines so and um you know if if there are issues with certain wines then you know we quite often would you know give that feedback so i think it yeah it does get back to the producers so they they can yeah obviously taste the ones that are winning but also if if they haven't won away um you know
Speaker #0
awards then um then hopefully they're getting some feedback from from us saying you know okay well you know that so they can then improve what they're they're doing so chinese wines are not yet uh represented in auctions because so for the factors that that we've discussed but over these last 20 years did you see kind of a rotation on the type of wines that you're having in auctions
Speaker #1
I mean yes yeah definitely when I've I've First started at Christie's in 2005. I mean, Bordeaux was very dominant in the kind of, yeah, the secondary market, the fine wine auction market. And Burgundy was, you know, just a small portion of that. And then, so yeah, since, you know, 2012, then, yeah, I think, yeah, there's been a big boom in interest in Burgundy. So initially, I guess it was. red Burgundy, but now, so both, you know, red and white Burgundy has become very popular. So, so that is, I guess, a significant change. I mean, Bordeaux is still, you know, really important for, for the secondary market that Christie's, you know, we sell a lot of Bordeaux. And I mean, the quality coming out of Bordeaux is exceptional nowadays. I mean, it's, you know, the wines that's being produced there are better than ever. So, so yeah, it's still vitally important, but Burgundy is obviously taking some of that, that market share, but there's been a diversification in the market um since um since then i mean we're you know seeing wines from um you know italy appearing on a regular basis i mean the super tuscans you know they're like you know here to stay um wines from spain you know they talk wines vegas sicilia pingas that sort of thing um but um yeah and then then yeah i mean even you know yeah some you know wine Australian wines that few from Chile, I guess, and like, you know, Vignaero Chadwick, we did, we sold some wines from them last year at Christie's. So, yeah, there is certainly a bit of a diversification in the market. But I mean, you know, I guess France dominates what we're doing at Christie's. So, yeah, it's, yeah, French wines are still, I guess you're from France. Yeah, yeah. So you'll probably be happy to hear this.
Speaker #0
I'm happy about that, but I think it's also like you have this difference in the market. Like, you know, it's been a few years that we experience amazing wines from around the world. But I guess for the time it reaches the secondary market, you have like 10 to 20 years before it's on par with the rest. So like maybe those rising stars in like 10 years is going to be almost equivalent to Bordeaux or Burgundy in your volumes.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, yeah.
Speaker #0
Maybe not, but yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
There's still a lot of wines in Bordeaux and Burgundy to sell, so. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Who knows? Yeah, I mean, I think probably Bordeaux and Burgundy will still be dominating things. But I mean, obviously, yeah, you know, yeah, I think there will be a bit of diversification. But yeah, I think France is still going to be dominating, I think.
Speaker #0
And in the place where you have auctions, so you told us you have 14 different offices in the world. 40. 40, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
But we don't, I mean, those offices. don't necessarily do auctions so the auctions are in in particular locations um so for wine it's um london hong kong uh new york and los angeles um just that's where we have wine sales but i mean we have auctions in um you know in other other locations yeah those are categories yeah exactly i mean christie's is you know yeah we sell all sorts of different things from watches yeah watches cars um classic cars now handbags um art is probably, you know, obviously art is the main focus of Christie's business.
Speaker #0
Do you see different tastes depending on dislocation for wine? Like people in Los Angeles tend to buy like a lot of Burgundy and people in Hong Kong a lot of Bordeaux?
Speaker #1
A little bit. I mean, but it is a global marketplace nowadays and so I think, you know, there is maybe there are some small kind of differences, but generally the you know, what sells well in London and sells well in Hong Kong and vice versa. So, I mean, I guess maybe, yeah. So, yeah, I don't think there's much difference because we have, you know, people are buying, like if you're based in Asia, you'll probably also be buying in our sales in London, for example. So, yeah, there's a bit of a, you know, maybe there's some peculiarities such as like you know Vintage Port probably does better in London because, yeah, we've got that sort of tradition of, you know, drinking a lot of vintage port, whereas, you know, in Asia.
Speaker #0
perhaps not so but um but yeah but generally it's um yeah quite similar in the different locations yeah plus the education for example about port must be super different uh like in france we drink kind of low quality port yeah a lot of ruby port you know for dessert or or like beginning of a dinner so i'm not sure we would like bid a lot to vintage port yeah sort of yeah yeah i mean yeah like a 1931 kids in the val or something like that yeah that
Speaker #1
but it was sold well in London.
Speaker #0
I would still drink it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's one of the best ports I've ever drunk, that particular port.
Speaker #0
So you've been doing this Chinese Wine Awards for three years now.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can you tell us a bit more about, so I think you're a senior judge or co-chair? Yes,
Speaker #1
a senior judge.
Speaker #0
So senior judge. So how does that work? I guess since you're kind of a... someone who comes here often now how do you like do you introduce a bit chinese wines to some people i guess some judges are not super familiar with with chinese wines so how do you try to like i don't know tell them the stories of of chinese wines how do you well i mean part of about
Speaker #1
the awards is um we have um a great kind of educational seminars like every morning before the actual awards we have like an for the last three years we've had like a lecture about, you know, you know, particular, you know, wine regions in China or, or, um, or that sort of thing. So he's doing that. Well, one of the, yes. So we've had, you know, like great lectures from, um, you know, professor Mar and professor Lee from, you know, universities in, in, in, in mainland China who are, you know, they're experts in, in, in Chinese wine. So we've been having that expertise given to us about, um, you know, yeah. So it's a great, Great. So, actually, I mean, one of the benefits of coming to this awards is that, you know, I am actually learning a fair bit about, you know, Chinese wines that we have. And then we have masterclasses at the end of the judging day, which don't necessarily involve Chinese wines, but it's a good way of learning. I mean, yesterday we had Jasper Morris, MW, doing a masterclass on Burgundy. So, that was a real highlight. Tasted some very nice Burgundy. So, yes. But I guess going back to your question about me sort of, you know, influencing, we don't need that because we are getting that information from it as well. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to be honest, I mean, when we're judging, we're judging completely unbiased. So, you know, we're just judging the quality of the wine. You know, we're judging it as is it sort of, you know. complex is it harmonious is it balanced is it got you know you know all those elements that that some you know wine should have um so um so yeah i think you you maybe you don't really need to have that background information um if you know if you're judging wine i mean you don't really get that much information um to be honest because you don't want to be influenced by you know you've got to you know as a professional judge you've got to be impartial you've got to judge it on its merits on what you
Speaker #0
tastes in that class how does the um this type of award or this type of like um ratings uh influence uh auctions afterwards i guess uh for you on the bordeaux burgundy this is uh this is important i mean critic
Speaker #1
scores uh yes i mean i guess they are important um you know um uh so yeah i mean it does It's maybe, yeah, I think it's a...
Speaker #0
maybe less important now than it was maybe 10 years ago or, you know, 15 years ago when, you know, some of the critics were, you know, extremely sort of influential. You know, I guess, you know, Robert Parker would give a score, you know, wine a score of 100 points, then, you know, that would lead to a, you know, significant. Massive surge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, so less, I think less so now. But I mean, I think, you know, scores are, you know, people, people, you know. look at scores they have obviously confidence in in wines that are scoring highly so um so i think it does influence the the market a little bit a little bit but less so now than previously what what is the the craziest uh auction that that you did like do you have a specific memory of a day you were doing an auction and um something well i mean it probably i yeah when we sold um um i mean this was a back in 2018. And we were offering a bottle of Macallan 1926, so a bottle of whiskey from Scotland. And, I mean, it was an incredible day because it sort of smashed the world auction record, you know, going over. It sold for 1.2 million pounds for one bottle. So that was kind of pretty incredible. And I've been involved in the whole process from, you know, trying to, well, helping with the. the vendor getting, you know, getting the bottle into sale and then also trying to, you know, obviously then once we got into sale, trying to find people that were interested in buying it. And, um, um, and it was, um, yeah, amazing that we, you know, obviously, you know, that, that it was an amazing, amazing day and did extremely well. So yeah, that was a pretty amazing day. So I remember when it, yeah, when the hammer went down, you know, and, um, yeah, I mean, there was a round of applause in the auction room. Cause I mean, it was a pretty historic day, you know, smashing that. So one million pound barrier. And I mean, it was significantly more than anything that had ever sold before. So yeah, that was pretty exhilarating.
Speaker #1
I guess selling one bottle for 1.5 million euros must be crazy.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
How do you... So a question that is always present on the secondary market for every item is authentication, whether it's for a watch, bag, or I guess a bottle of wine. Yeah. And it's why I guess people tend to go to...
Speaker #0
big auction houses is that you have this like kind of stamp of quality checks how do you make sure that what you propose to the the people is uh real and and true yeah well i mean yeah yeah for wine yeah well it's yeah it's very important um you know it's it's yeah well crucial really um that um we make sure that everything that we're we're selling is is yeah authentic. So, I mean... Obviously, the expertise that we have at Christie's over many decades. But initially, it's really provenance is key. So where have these wines and spirits come from? So if we don't get that information from the vendor, then we tend to just walk away. So say, sorry, you can't give the provenance for that bottle of Romany Conti or whatever. So we need that sort of... trail of like where it's come from that it's a to um um yeah verify that you know where it's come from so yeah but um so yeah if we have any doubts obviously we just yeah we can't accept things for sale so um so yeah so people can have you know the utmost confidence in in what is being offered for sale at christie's so like a good a good point if i have wines that i want to sell to christie's is having the invoice keep the invoices exactly yeah yeah exactly okay and then we have a team
Speaker #1
So I guess you test, you evaluate the quality of the bottle, what you were doing as a junior specialist. So level of the wine, quality of the label type of thing. Do you also have like a team checking the quality of the wine in one way or another?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, if we would ask for, you know, tasting samples of, yeah, to, you know, but quite a lot of the actual kind of sellers that we go and see, you know, in situ, you know, like where it's been stored. So, I mean, recently I went you know there's a potential vendor so i went to that country had a look at the storage conditions um to make sure that i was i was you know happy with um you know how they've been stored so so yeah so that's it's you know so we often do that um you must see crazy things in there interesting interesting yeah interesting places where people are yeah i mean yeah some some great wine sellers i mean yeah some fantastic wine sellers that i've been lucky enough to to see but um but yeah a lot of our wines are you know stored in professional storage warehouses so um so that's um yeah that's romantic yeah yeah exactly yeah like a yeah a set iron secret door yeah exactly yeah yeah you've seen like james bond type of things um yes yeah yeah i mean yes similar kind of things yeah with you know like retina kind of sort of scan to open like you know yeah um the doors just um yeah and um or you know thumbprints and all that sort of stuff and and people converting all sorts of areas of their houses into into wine cellars when they when they get that collecting bug i suppose you want to yeah keep your wine in in amazing conditions and and uh yeah and yeah so some yeah interesting interesting things that i've seen yeah
Speaker #1
Can't wait to do it for myself as well. I will definitely do this James Bond type of things, retinas, fingerprint, everything. Well, thank you very much, Tim, for this interview. I want to make sure we stick to the timing that we followed. It's been super interesting to learn more about your journey, learn more about your perception of Chinese wines, like perception of Chinese wines in an auction house as well.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I'm sure we're going to see Chinese wines in like 20 years or probably.
Speaker #0
Hopefully, hopefully, it may be sooner.
Speaker #1
I have three last questions that are a bit of a tradition in this podcast. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, I think I would have to recommend Vintage Wine, which is the book written by Michael Broadbent, which I still use as a reference today. minutes got. like he was he tasted some like incredible wines and and was meticulous with his um um you know note-taking um so i think that would be i mean that's the book that he actually signed and and was in my inspiration for you know studying the master of wine and becoming a master of wine so i think um that that book is kind of you know even though it was published a long time ago i still use it in my in my daily job um you know referring back to you know older vintages of wine that um you know I've never tasted but obviously Michael was lucky enough to taste and getting his sort of opinion on that and so yeah so that would be my suggestion for a book it's a difficult recommendation because then you want to taste the wines actually described true
Speaker #1
I had this experience with like a winemaker in Burgundy who offered me a book by Jacques Errigo about so it was like vintages in Burgundy from 1875 to today okay and so the guy actually tasted like all the vintage and wrote a note about weather the wine by itself like all that type of things and then you read that and you're like maybe i should taste it and then you look at the price on christie's and you're like no no way i'm tasting that today but
Speaker #0
maybe in a few years do you have a recent wine that you tasted and that you you found amazing um well obviously i should say that um it was one of the the Chinese wines that I've just tasted in the judging competition. But obviously, I have, yeah, there was a great wines in there. But obviously, I have no idea what they were, because everything is judged blind. So all the bottles are completely covered up, and you don't know what it is. But I guess, I mean, I think one of the sort of wines that sticks in my memory is a Mouton Rothschild 1945, which I had on a couple occasions, and it's like an incredible wine. So I think that... that probably would be my kind of standout wine, I think. So, yeah, amazing vintage 45. And, yeah, I mean, it's incredible how it's aged. I mean, it's still, you know, like going strong. I mean, it's an amazing wine.
Speaker #1
I've never tasted a 45, but I've tasted a few. On specific occasions, it was already amazing. So I can just imagine what 45 looks like. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Goodness. I mean, I don't know who you've already interviewed, to be honest. But I mean, I know perhaps another master of wine, maybe. I mean, Jancis Robinson, have you ever interviewed her?
Speaker #1
Never interviewed. We did a lot of master of wine, but Jancis, not yet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, Jancis, I think maybe. Yeah, try and get in touch with Jancis and see if she'll... she's um yeah lovely and um yeah um she's great i mean she's yeah been in so influential in in in the wine world and um she's yeah so she's yeah a great person and and i think she's yeah she's yeah i'm obviously based in london so i guess you'll have to come to london it
Speaker #1
would be a terrible moment but if we can still meet the agencies and have nice a glass of wine it will be it will soften the and difficult moment of being in London. But we're based in Hong Kong, so it's okay. Now we have this adaptation to Double Decker and that type of thing. Yeah, well,
Speaker #0
exactly. Well, there's literally like that casino, the Londoner, just across the road from here, that's got like London buses and Downing Street and various things, so you can get a little taste of London here in Macau.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true. Thank you very much for all of this, Tim. Thank you for taking the time. If you like this interview, don't forget to like it, to share it, to subscribe to the channel, to do everything you already know. Thanks a lot, Tim, for taking this time. I wish you beautiful auctions, I guess, for the future.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, we've got two auctions happening today, actually, in London. So one starts at... 10 p.m. our time here, 2 p.m. in London, some Karazawa, so Japanese whiskey. And then at 2.30, 10.30 Macau time, it's going to be some amazing Burgundy from René Engel. So, yeah, we've got lots of amazing auctions coming up. And also in Hong Kong at the moment, we've got an online sale that runs until the 17th of March. So check out Christy's website because it's, yes, amazing kind of Bordeaux, Burgundy, some Particularly highlights some great first growths, Lafitte, and a great collection of Petrus as well being sold out of Hong Kong. So yeah, look at Christie's.com, please.
Speaker #1
We'll put the link in the description to this episode. Thanks, Tim, and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Okay, thank you very much.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Join us on Wine Makers Show, the podcast that uncorks the world of wine! Hosted by Antoine, a passionate entrepreneur and wine enthusiast, this show dives deep into the stories, expertise, and journeys of the people who make wine extraordinary: winemakers, sommeliers, vintners, and industry trailblazers.

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Wine Makers Show is your gateway to understanding wine like never before. With a focus on storytelling and sharing, Antoine brings you closer to the heart of the wine industry, one conversation at a time. Expect authentic discussions, insider knowledge, and a celebration of the craft and culture of wine.

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Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Expect a 1.2-million-pound bottle of whisky, a champagne dosage deep-dive, and a very honest take on why Bordeaux still dominates the room. Tune in!

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 Michael Broadbent's Vintage Wine, by Michael Broadbent

🍷 Check the Wynn Signature Chinese Wine Awards

🧑🏼‍⚖️ Learn more about Christie’s Auction House

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🗺️ Get the best Wine Map of the Champagne region: as information as decorative

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ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Tim.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for taking the time for this interview. I know you've had some busy days before today. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Chinese wines, about auctions, about wine valorization, a lot of things like that. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Well, my name is Tim Triptory. I'm the International Director of Wines and Spirits at Christie's Auction House and I'm also a master of wine And so, yeah, I'm obviously a judge at the Wynn Signature China Wine Awards. So hence, I'm here in Macau. So, yeah, that's me.
Speaker #0
So how did you start your wine journey?
Speaker #1
Well, I mean, I kind of, you know, grew up in a family, obviously not connected to the wine business at all. I mean, I used to drink a little bit of wine as, you know, my parents did, you know, and, you know, they gave me some wine when I was a kid. But yeah, I kind of studied psychology as a degree. So I'm from the UK. So from a small county called Wiltshire. So in the countryside in the UK, not many vines there, obviously. You know, I suppose with global warming now there are some vineyards obviously planted in the vicinity, but not really in that area. Actually, it's more in the sort of southeast of the UK. So yeah, so I studied psychology as my degree. Um, so after university, I, I wanted to work in banking, um, so investment banking, um, which, um, I did. So my first career was in investment banking. Um, so I worked, um, um, in sort of equity research, um, helping, um, analysts put their sort of, you know, um, well, their sort of whether they should buy, sell, whatever, um, their reports together. So, um, so yeah, it was, you know, I would, I kind of never imagined that, you know, I'd be working in the wine business really. So, um. But yeah, I left the banking industry after I kind of enjoyed it, but I wasn't passionate about it. And so I decided to take a career break and go and learn a language. So I went to Mendoza in Argentina to learn Spanish.
Speaker #0
Learn the language? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was living in Mendoza, surrounded by vineyards. I mean, obviously, you know what everyone should know. But Mendoza is the province where 80% of wine is produced in Argentina. So, yeah, I got to meet a lot of people that worked in the wine business. And then I kind of thought, okay, well, actually, why not a career in the wine industry? So I kind of did it. I started a sommelier course when I was in Mendoza, did that. And then I was sort of Googling, looking for further education in... in wine because obviously i had a very you know i had a cv that was you know business like banking yeah exactly and nothing to do with wine so um so i saw um back in the uk there was an mba in wine business management that was offered at um the royal agricultural um university in cirencester which is about agriculture obviously um and they had some experimental vineyards and so they offered this in their business school. So... I kind of enrolled on that course, came back to the UK, did that for 18 months as a mature student in my sort of, you know, mid-20s. Got that MBA and then that helped me then at least have some sort of, you know, qualification in wine to then be able to get some employment in the UK. So I started working at Majestic Wine, which is a retailer that's quite well known in the UK. And yeah, and then got the job. at Christie's as a junior specialist in 2005. Okay,
Speaker #0
so it's been 20 years already. Yeah,
Speaker #1
over 20 years. So yes, exactly. Yeah, so I started as a junior specialist and I've sort of worked my way up from junior specialist to, you know, specialist to senior specialist. And now I'm international director at Christie's. And I guess, yeah, I mean, I can explain what my role is at Christie's, which is, so I'm, Yeah, being the international director, obviously, I'm responsible for trying to get business wine and spirits consignments into our auctions internationally. So we at Christie's, we have auctions in London, Hong Kong, New York and Los Angeles. So I'm trying to get people to sell their wines and spirits in these locations. Bye. Obviously, then, you know, the whole process from kind of, you know, the inspections, the authentication, the condition reports, you know, I'm involved in that. I'm doing valuations is, you know, a big part of my job because we do sell a lot of, you know, fine and rare wines that are, you know, mature vintages that are, you know, quite rare and pretty difficult to price, to be honest. because a lot of the wines we're selling is maybe they're They're not in the market. It's difficult to find. So that expertise of doing valuations, I think, is key. I'm an auctioneer. So I stand up in the rostrum with a gavel. That must be quick. Yeah, it's quite exhilarating. I mean, particularly, yeah, if you've got a lot of bidding coming, it can be great fun. And also, I do kind of talks, masterclasses, and sort of act as a… I guess, a kind of wine and spirits ambassador for Christie's globally. So actually, after being in Macau, I'm heading off to, I'm going to Hong Kong, going to Bangkok, and then going to Tokyo. And I'm doing some kind of masterclasses and a few little events just for, you know, some key clients. And so that's the sort of thing I get up to, really.
Speaker #0
So just to come back a little to the beginning of your career at Christie's, you said you started as a junior specialist.
Speaker #1
specialist what does it look like uh in terms of like working at christie's being a junior specialist is just like you arrive and you try to find wines like what do well i mean yeah i guess more back then as a junior specialist you're more involved in the kind of the processing um of the the kind of you know the the wines and or the auctions you know so it's more of a kind of I mean, there is obviously your... developing that expertise but it's more about the kind of you know second part of the process yeah the processing so it wasn't really uh the business getting like you know the sourcing of consignments that wasn't really um part of my remit back when i first started so it was just learning the ropes um you know learning how to value wines learning how to inspect wines um you know when when we're looking at old vintages of of wines i mean um you know the the kind of the condition is is key so you know the the conditions of the labels, the capsules, particularly the ullage level. So, you know, of the wine. Yeah, exactly. Interneck, you know, base neck, top shoulder, whatever. You know, we need to make sure that everything that we're inspecting is, you know, in good condition, is saleable. The colors of the wines are good. And so because obviously we don't want to be putting stuff into an auction, putting wines into an auction that is sort of out of condition if, you know, if it's a white wine, if it's gone really bad. brown or if it's a red wine and it's lost its red color then you know that that kind of inspection is is key so as a junior yeah you're i'm i was kind of told what to do to be honest and and um so um so yeah but it was it was a great obviously learning experience and and i had you know great team um in london that were sort of instrumental in in in my career really um um so um i mean one of them chris monroe he's still at christie's he's um head of new york now but um um david elsewhere. who sadly passed. He was a great boss. And obviously Michael Broadbent as well, who's a master of wine. I mean, he was around when I first started at Christie's and was pretty influential in my career. And it was quite, yeah, I mean, yeah, he obviously wrote amazing books. And I mean, I'd asked him to sign one of his books that he'd written. And I kind of read it afterwards and he said, dear Tim, I have full confidence in And... you becoming a master of wine one day so um i was like well that i use that as a kind of a motivation to to to you know to you know do the master of wine and eventually um succeed at passing the the master wine which is obviously quite a difficult exam
Speaker #0
to pass coming from uh from michael broadbent it must have been a kind of a good encouragement to to get past the master of wine yeah when did you go for master of wine well i started studying for the master wine in 2010
Speaker #1
Um, so I previously I'd done the WSET diploma, which a lot of people do as a stepping stone onto the master of wine. Um, so I started in 2010 and then I passed, I passed the theory on the first attempt. Um, then I, that year I'd failed the tasting. Then the next year I was very confident that I would pass the tasting and I think I did worse than the previous year. But, um, but then, um, and then I, I, I had a gap because I moved to Hong Kong in 2013. So it was a new role in Hong Kong, still at Christie's. So it was a sort of a secondment.
Speaker #0
Still adaptation to life.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was just, yes, exactly. You know, different environment, a lot of, so I focused more on kind of, you know, that and didn't really have the time for studying because studying for the Master of Wine, you have to sort of dedicate all your kind of, you know, your weekends, your social life kind of obviously, you know. particularly around exam time, you're sort of saying, no, sorry, I can't go out. I'm studying. So, yeah. And then also, obviously, the exams are back in London. So, for the first two years I was living in Hong Kong, I wasn't in the program, but I rejoined and then managed to pass the tasting in 2016. So, the blind tasting is what I guess most people struggle with in terms of, you know, they're passing their qualification. So I did that in 2016 and then took a couple of years over my research paper, which I did on champagne, which was actually great fun to do because I got to go to champagne quite a lot, develop a real expertise in the region and the wines, meet great winemakers.
Speaker #0
You've been acclaimed for these tastes as well, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yes, exactly. I won the Noval Award, sponsored by Quinton Noval, for the best research paper in that year. So, yeah, it was, so that was, that was in, and so 2018 is when I finally, you know, got the, the award of Master of Wine.
Speaker #0
And was it like a stepping stone to becoming an international wine director for Christie's or was it?
Speaker #1
I think, yes, I think it helped. Yes, it was, it helped. But, but yeah, I think it was, yeah, it was a stepping stone onto that.
Speaker #0
And so your thesis was about champagne.
Speaker #1
So I looked into the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage and assessed over a 20-year period whether there'd been any significant changes in the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage. So I found over that sort of 20-year period from 1995 to 2005, I guess I was studying, sorry, 2015. um that um uh the the use had significantly increased of reserve wines so so um champagne producers were were using much higher proportions of reserve wines in their brut non-vintage so producing a more you know complex style a richer style rather than a kind of um you know more of a a sort of a you know yeah well obviously reserve wines had that sort of aged element that complexities so um so i think um yeah it was yeah i mean it kind of was related to dosage levels as well. So during that time, as reserve wines were going up, dosage levels were coming down. So there's a relationship between those two because obviously dosage, adding sugar, was a way of kind of masking that raw base kind of vintage that was the majority of Bruton on vintage. And so if you add more reserve wine, then you don't have so much of that. raw sort of very acidic base wine so um you don't need so much exactly yeah yeah um you're based in hong kong no no so i moved um so i was in hong kong for four years so 2016 i'm then moved back to london and yeah i live in london now how do you um how do you source uh the wines that you're setting i guess it's a kind of a battle with other
Speaker #0
other um uh like
Speaker #1
agencies or i don't know how we yeah i mean it's competitive yeah it's very competitive um uh out there but um i mean um obviously well christie's is a as a an auction house um um so yeah we've we yeah i mean we've been doing um sales since uh 1766 so um that very first sale that um james christie did included wine so you know we're continuing that kind of tradition today So, I mean... we you know that obviously helps because a lot of people around the world you know know the christie's brand yeah so we do get quite a lot of people approaching us but then i also have to be proactive and try and contact people that you know i think have big collections um and try and convince them to to you know sell their their wines um um and spirits at christie's so well
Speaker #0
I guess you must have your method, but like you... You look for people recently buying old houses, people like, I don't know, like a succession in big families.
Speaker #1
A little bit like that. I mean, yes, there's obviously many different elements to getting wines. I mean, at Christie's, I mean, we have got a big network of colleagues around the world. We've got, you know, offices, I think, in 40 different countries with, you know, representatives that are, you know. very close to kind of, you know, the collectors that are in these respective countries and cities. So, you know, a lot comes through them. But I mean, doing things like going to Bangkok or going to Tokyo and meeting up with clients, you know, that's a good way of developing business. But I guess, well, we quite often say that, you know, death. um divorce and duties so i mean you know like you know so um you know if people um have a big tax bill maybe they might sell some wine or you know but i mean i mean that's a bit of a joke but but you know it's um but nowadays it's i mean we look back and see who potentially has been buying a lot of wine from us over the last few years and then you can and then yeah because um a lot of people who are you know collectors of wine probably will collect a lot of a lot of wine and and decide okay well maybe you know if their tastes change or their circumstances change or they just realize that they've got far too much wine that they can ever drink then you know they're probably you know right before selling through through christie's yeah maybe they want to like sell part of the collection buy new wines after exactly yeah yeah that goes wider in diversity and yeah exactly i mean you have to monitor your cellar as well your collection You can't, you know... Wine has a finite life. So, you know, you've got to, yeah, maybe replenish it with younger vintages. And so, yeah, collectors are often sort of, you know, selling some of the older stuff and buying some of the newer vintages.
Speaker #0
So there are two things that are super interesting about China, I guess, for you. And so we can, like, do these two parts. The first one is about the Chinese clients, because I guess over the, like, past 30 years, the number of Chinese clients to Christie's and the interest to wine by Chinese must have like surged dramatically. And the other part of the question is the interest for Chinese wines. I guess that 20 years ago, it was, I won't say impossible, but I guess that Chinese wines were not even a topic for auction house. I guess it's, I don't know if it's changing yet, but maybe in like a few years, you would start to have... really expensive Chinese wines and where Chinese wines that you want to auction as well. So these are like my two interrogations. So maybe we can start by Chinese clients.
Speaker #1
I mean, I think the big catalyst for this was 2008 and when the duty on wine was reduced to zero in Hong Kong. And that led to a boom of interest in wine in the region. So certainly, I mean, yes, since then. um it's yeah been hugely important to to um yeah the wine industry in general really the fine well the fine wine industry certainly um so it yes it that was very important um and um yeah i mean obviously it's um you
Speaker #0
know hugely important to christie's maybe not only china but also asia southeast asia yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah i mean it's yeah i mean a lot of people will
Speaker #1
maybe store their wines in Hong Kong nowadays because of the, you know, the ease of getting wines into Hong Kong. And then, you know, they come to Hong Kong and enjoy, you know, drinking their wines in Hong Kong. So, yes, yeah, exactly. And then getting to your question about, you know, wines from China. Yeah, I mean, yes, they don't appear in the secondary market, really. I mean, maybe. Yeah, I think so. But them. But certainly, I mean, from the wines I've been tasting in the awards, there's certainly potential for these wines to be appearing in the secondary market, I think. Obviously, yeah, there's some, you know, famous names, you know, the Au Yun from LVMH, you know. But yeah, I mean, the quality is getting higher than ever. I've been doing this competition wins for three years now. And I think, yeah, each year the... the standard of the um the wines that we're tasting is um um being higher than ever and um obviously i can't give anything away about who's won or well i don't know actually to use one everything is done blind so but i do know that you know we've been awarding many more medals um this year than than previously so um so yeah i think the standard is higher than ever and Obviously, you know, I think it's a sort of a virtuous sort of... um circle um because you know doing something like the win awards where you're um rewarding those top winemakers in in in china um for their wine so they get recognition for what they're doing then that gets obviously fed back so you know then they will you know there'll be more sort of you know um i guess well obviously they'll be happy and emotional that inspiration for you know improving further so um So, yeah, I think, you know, yeah, who knows? Yeah, in the future, I think it could certainly be, yeah, wines from China appearing in the secondary market.
Speaker #0
And even for others, it can be a good benchmark and inspiration. You know, if you didn't get a medal, you still have the feedback from the judges.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
You can.
Speaker #1
taste your neighbors see what's going on why did they get a medal then you try to improve and yeah yeah and on and on definitely yeah exactly yeah yeah so yeah i mean we you know as judges when we're judging this competition we're you know we're writing tasting notes for all the wines so and um you know if if there are issues with certain wines then you know we quite often would you know give that feedback so i think it yeah it does get back to the producers so they they can yeah obviously taste the ones that are winning but also if if they haven't won away um you know
Speaker #0
awards then um then hopefully they're getting some feedback from from us saying you know okay well you know that so they can then improve what they're they're doing so chinese wines are not yet uh represented in auctions because so for the factors that that we've discussed but over these last 20 years did you see kind of a rotation on the type of wines that you're having in auctions
Speaker #1
I mean yes yeah definitely when I've I've First started at Christie's in 2005. I mean, Bordeaux was very dominant in the kind of, yeah, the secondary market, the fine wine auction market. And Burgundy was, you know, just a small portion of that. And then, so yeah, since, you know, 2012, then, yeah, I think, yeah, there's been a big boom in interest in Burgundy. So initially, I guess it was. red Burgundy, but now, so both, you know, red and white Burgundy has become very popular. So, so that is, I guess, a significant change. I mean, Bordeaux is still, you know, really important for, for the secondary market that Christie's, you know, we sell a lot of Bordeaux. And I mean, the quality coming out of Bordeaux is exceptional nowadays. I mean, it's, you know, the wines that's being produced there are better than ever. So, so yeah, it's still vitally important, but Burgundy is obviously taking some of that, that market share, but there's been a diversification in the market um since um since then i mean we're you know seeing wines from um you know italy appearing on a regular basis i mean the super tuscans you know they're like you know here to stay um wines from spain you know they talk wines vegas sicilia pingas that sort of thing um but um yeah and then then yeah i mean even you know yeah some you know wine Australian wines that few from Chile, I guess, and like, you know, Vignaero Chadwick, we did, we sold some wines from them last year at Christie's. So, yeah, there is certainly a bit of a diversification in the market. But I mean, you know, I guess France dominates what we're doing at Christie's. So, yeah, it's, yeah, French wines are still, I guess you're from France. Yeah, yeah. So you'll probably be happy to hear this.
Speaker #0
I'm happy about that, but I think it's also like you have this difference in the market. Like, you know, it's been a few years that we experience amazing wines from around the world. But I guess for the time it reaches the secondary market, you have like 10 to 20 years before it's on par with the rest. So like maybe those rising stars in like 10 years is going to be almost equivalent to Bordeaux or Burgundy in your volumes.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, yeah.
Speaker #0
Maybe not, but yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
There's still a lot of wines in Bordeaux and Burgundy to sell, so. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Who knows? Yeah, I mean, I think probably Bordeaux and Burgundy will still be dominating things. But I mean, obviously, yeah, you know, yeah, I think there will be a bit of diversification. But yeah, I think France is still going to be dominating, I think.
Speaker #0
And in the place where you have auctions, so you told us you have 14 different offices in the world. 40. 40, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
But we don't, I mean, those offices. don't necessarily do auctions so the auctions are in in particular locations um so for wine it's um london hong kong uh new york and los angeles um just that's where we have wine sales but i mean we have auctions in um you know in other other locations yeah those are categories yeah exactly i mean christie's is you know yeah we sell all sorts of different things from watches yeah watches cars um classic cars now handbags um art is probably, you know, obviously art is the main focus of Christie's business.
Speaker #0
Do you see different tastes depending on dislocation for wine? Like people in Los Angeles tend to buy like a lot of Burgundy and people in Hong Kong a lot of Bordeaux?
Speaker #1
A little bit. I mean, but it is a global marketplace nowadays and so I think, you know, there is maybe there are some small kind of differences, but generally the you know, what sells well in London and sells well in Hong Kong and vice versa. So, I mean, I guess maybe, yeah. So, yeah, I don't think there's much difference because we have, you know, people are buying, like if you're based in Asia, you'll probably also be buying in our sales in London, for example. So, yeah, there's a bit of a, you know, maybe there's some peculiarities such as like you know Vintage Port probably does better in London because, yeah, we've got that sort of tradition of, you know, drinking a lot of vintage port, whereas, you know, in Asia.
Speaker #0
perhaps not so but um but yeah but generally it's um yeah quite similar in the different locations yeah plus the education for example about port must be super different uh like in france we drink kind of low quality port yeah a lot of ruby port you know for dessert or or like beginning of a dinner so i'm not sure we would like bid a lot to vintage port yeah sort of yeah yeah i mean yeah like a 1931 kids in the val or something like that yeah that
Speaker #1
but it was sold well in London.
Speaker #0
I would still drink it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's one of the best ports I've ever drunk, that particular port.
Speaker #0
So you've been doing this Chinese Wine Awards for three years now.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can you tell us a bit more about, so I think you're a senior judge or co-chair? Yes,
Speaker #1
a senior judge.
Speaker #0
So senior judge. So how does that work? I guess since you're kind of a... someone who comes here often now how do you like do you introduce a bit chinese wines to some people i guess some judges are not super familiar with with chinese wines so how do you try to like i don't know tell them the stories of of chinese wines how do you well i mean part of about
Speaker #1
the awards is um we have um a great kind of educational seminars like every morning before the actual awards we have like an for the last three years we've had like a lecture about, you know, you know, particular, you know, wine regions in China or, or, um, or that sort of thing. So he's doing that. Well, one of the, yes. So we've had, you know, like great lectures from, um, you know, professor Mar and professor Lee from, you know, universities in, in, in, in mainland China who are, you know, they're experts in, in, in Chinese wine. So we've been having that expertise given to us about, um, you know, yeah. So it's a great, Great. So, actually, I mean, one of the benefits of coming to this awards is that, you know, I am actually learning a fair bit about, you know, Chinese wines that we have. And then we have masterclasses at the end of the judging day, which don't necessarily involve Chinese wines, but it's a good way of learning. I mean, yesterday we had Jasper Morris, MW, doing a masterclass on Burgundy. So, that was a real highlight. Tasted some very nice Burgundy. So, yes. But I guess going back to your question about me sort of, you know, influencing, we don't need that because we are getting that information from it as well. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to be honest, I mean, when we're judging, we're judging completely unbiased. So, you know, we're just judging the quality of the wine. You know, we're judging it as is it sort of, you know. complex is it harmonious is it balanced is it got you know you know all those elements that that some you know wine should have um so um so yeah i think you you maybe you don't really need to have that background information um if you know if you're judging wine i mean you don't really get that much information um to be honest because you don't want to be influenced by you know you've got to you know as a professional judge you've got to be impartial you've got to judge it on its merits on what you
Speaker #0
tastes in that class how does the um this type of award or this type of like um ratings uh influence uh auctions afterwards i guess uh for you on the bordeaux burgundy this is uh this is important i mean critic
Speaker #1
scores uh yes i mean i guess they are important um you know um uh so yeah i mean it does It's maybe, yeah, I think it's a...
Speaker #0
maybe less important now than it was maybe 10 years ago or, you know, 15 years ago when, you know, some of the critics were, you know, extremely sort of influential. You know, I guess, you know, Robert Parker would give a score, you know, wine a score of 100 points, then, you know, that would lead to a, you know, significant. Massive surge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, so less, I think less so now. But I mean, I think, you know, scores are, you know, people, people, you know. look at scores they have obviously confidence in in wines that are scoring highly so um so i think it does influence the the market a little bit a little bit but less so now than previously what what is the the craziest uh auction that that you did like do you have a specific memory of a day you were doing an auction and um something well i mean it probably i yeah when we sold um um i mean this was a back in 2018. And we were offering a bottle of Macallan 1926, so a bottle of whiskey from Scotland. And, I mean, it was an incredible day because it sort of smashed the world auction record, you know, going over. It sold for 1.2 million pounds for one bottle. So that was kind of pretty incredible. And I've been involved in the whole process from, you know, trying to, well, helping with the. the vendor getting, you know, getting the bottle into sale and then also trying to, you know, obviously then once we got into sale, trying to find people that were interested in buying it. And, um, um, and it was, um, yeah, amazing that we, you know, obviously, you know, that, that it was an amazing, amazing day and did extremely well. So yeah, that was a pretty amazing day. So I remember when it, yeah, when the hammer went down, you know, and, um, yeah, I mean, there was a round of applause in the auction room. Cause I mean, it was a pretty historic day, you know, smashing that. So one million pound barrier. And I mean, it was significantly more than anything that had ever sold before. So yeah, that was pretty exhilarating.
Speaker #1
I guess selling one bottle for 1.5 million euros must be crazy.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
How do you... So a question that is always present on the secondary market for every item is authentication, whether it's for a watch, bag, or I guess a bottle of wine. Yeah. And it's why I guess people tend to go to...
Speaker #0
big auction houses is that you have this like kind of stamp of quality checks how do you make sure that what you propose to the the people is uh real and and true yeah well i mean yeah yeah for wine yeah well it's yeah it's very important um you know it's it's yeah well crucial really um that um we make sure that everything that we're we're selling is is yeah authentic. So, I mean... Obviously, the expertise that we have at Christie's over many decades. But initially, it's really provenance is key. So where have these wines and spirits come from? So if we don't get that information from the vendor, then we tend to just walk away. So say, sorry, you can't give the provenance for that bottle of Romany Conti or whatever. So we need that sort of... trail of like where it's come from that it's a to um um yeah verify that you know where it's come from so yeah but um so yeah if we have any doubts obviously we just yeah we can't accept things for sale so um so yeah so people can have you know the utmost confidence in in what is being offered for sale at christie's so like a good a good point if i have wines that i want to sell to christie's is having the invoice keep the invoices exactly yeah yeah exactly okay and then we have a team
Speaker #1
So I guess you test, you evaluate the quality of the bottle, what you were doing as a junior specialist. So level of the wine, quality of the label type of thing. Do you also have like a team checking the quality of the wine in one way or another?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, if we would ask for, you know, tasting samples of, yeah, to, you know, but quite a lot of the actual kind of sellers that we go and see, you know, in situ, you know, like where it's been stored. So, I mean, recently I went you know there's a potential vendor so i went to that country had a look at the storage conditions um to make sure that i was i was you know happy with um you know how they've been stored so so yeah so that's it's you know so we often do that um you must see crazy things in there interesting interesting yeah interesting places where people are yeah i mean yeah some some great wine sellers i mean yeah some fantastic wine sellers that i've been lucky enough to to see but um but yeah a lot of our wines are you know stored in professional storage warehouses so um so that's um yeah that's romantic yeah yeah exactly yeah like a yeah a set iron secret door yeah exactly yeah yeah you've seen like james bond type of things um yes yeah yeah i mean yes similar kind of things yeah with you know like retina kind of sort of scan to open like you know yeah um the doors just um yeah and um or you know thumbprints and all that sort of stuff and and people converting all sorts of areas of their houses into into wine cellars when they when they get that collecting bug i suppose you want to yeah keep your wine in in amazing conditions and and uh yeah and yeah so some yeah interesting interesting things that i've seen yeah
Speaker #1
Can't wait to do it for myself as well. I will definitely do this James Bond type of things, retinas, fingerprint, everything. Well, thank you very much, Tim, for this interview. I want to make sure we stick to the timing that we followed. It's been super interesting to learn more about your journey, learn more about your perception of Chinese wines, like perception of Chinese wines in an auction house as well.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I'm sure we're going to see Chinese wines in like 20 years or probably.
Speaker #0
Hopefully, hopefully, it may be sooner.
Speaker #1
I have three last questions that are a bit of a tradition in this podcast. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, I think I would have to recommend Vintage Wine, which is the book written by Michael Broadbent, which I still use as a reference today. minutes got. like he was he tasted some like incredible wines and and was meticulous with his um um you know note-taking um so i think that would be i mean that's the book that he actually signed and and was in my inspiration for you know studying the master of wine and becoming a master of wine so i think um that that book is kind of you know even though it was published a long time ago i still use it in my in my daily job um you know referring back to you know older vintages of wine that um you know I've never tasted but obviously Michael was lucky enough to taste and getting his sort of opinion on that and so yeah so that would be my suggestion for a book it's a difficult recommendation because then you want to taste the wines actually described true
Speaker #1
I had this experience with like a winemaker in Burgundy who offered me a book by Jacques Errigo about so it was like vintages in Burgundy from 1875 to today okay and so the guy actually tasted like all the vintage and wrote a note about weather the wine by itself like all that type of things and then you read that and you're like maybe i should taste it and then you look at the price on christie's and you're like no no way i'm tasting that today but
Speaker #0
maybe in a few years do you have a recent wine that you tasted and that you you found amazing um well obviously i should say that um it was one of the the Chinese wines that I've just tasted in the judging competition. But obviously, I have, yeah, there was a great wines in there. But obviously, I have no idea what they were, because everything is judged blind. So all the bottles are completely covered up, and you don't know what it is. But I guess, I mean, I think one of the sort of wines that sticks in my memory is a Mouton Rothschild 1945, which I had on a couple occasions, and it's like an incredible wine. So I think that... that probably would be my kind of standout wine, I think. So, yeah, amazing vintage 45. And, yeah, I mean, it's incredible how it's aged. I mean, it's still, you know, like going strong. I mean, it's an amazing wine.
Speaker #1
I've never tasted a 45, but I've tasted a few. On specific occasions, it was already amazing. So I can just imagine what 45 looks like. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Goodness. I mean, I don't know who you've already interviewed, to be honest. But I mean, I know perhaps another master of wine, maybe. I mean, Jancis Robinson, have you ever interviewed her?
Speaker #1
Never interviewed. We did a lot of master of wine, but Jancis, not yet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, Jancis, I think maybe. Yeah, try and get in touch with Jancis and see if she'll... she's um yeah lovely and um yeah um she's great i mean she's yeah been in so influential in in in the wine world and um she's yeah so she's yeah a great person and and i think she's yeah she's yeah i'm obviously based in london so i guess you'll have to come to london it
Speaker #1
would be a terrible moment but if we can still meet the agencies and have nice a glass of wine it will be it will soften the and difficult moment of being in London. But we're based in Hong Kong, so it's okay. Now we have this adaptation to Double Decker and that type of thing. Yeah, well,
Speaker #0
exactly. Well, there's literally like that casino, the Londoner, just across the road from here, that's got like London buses and Downing Street and various things, so you can get a little taste of London here in Macau.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true. Thank you very much for all of this, Tim. Thank you for taking the time. If you like this interview, don't forget to like it, to share it, to subscribe to the channel, to do everything you already know. Thanks a lot, Tim, for taking this time. I wish you beautiful auctions, I guess, for the future.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, we've got two auctions happening today, actually, in London. So one starts at... 10 p.m. our time here, 2 p.m. in London, some Karazawa, so Japanese whiskey. And then at 2.30, 10.30 Macau time, it's going to be some amazing Burgundy from René Engel. So, yeah, we've got lots of amazing auctions coming up. And also in Hong Kong at the moment, we've got an online sale that runs until the 17th of March. So check out Christy's website because it's, yes, amazing kind of Bordeaux, Burgundy, some Particularly highlights some great first growths, Lafitte, and a great collection of Petrus as well being sold out of Hong Kong. So yeah, look at Christie's.com, please.
Speaker #1
We'll put the link in the description to this episode. Thanks, Tim, and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Okay, thank you very much.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

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Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
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About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Expect a 1.2-million-pound bottle of whisky, a champagne dosage deep-dive, and a very honest take on why Bordeaux still dominates the room. Tune in!

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📚 Michael Broadbent's Vintage Wine, by Michael Broadbent

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Tim.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for taking the time for this interview. I know you've had some busy days before today. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Chinese wines, about auctions, about wine valorization, a lot of things like that. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Well, my name is Tim Triptory. I'm the International Director of Wines and Spirits at Christie's Auction House and I'm also a master of wine And so, yeah, I'm obviously a judge at the Wynn Signature China Wine Awards. So hence, I'm here in Macau. So, yeah, that's me.
Speaker #0
So how did you start your wine journey?
Speaker #1
Well, I mean, I kind of, you know, grew up in a family, obviously not connected to the wine business at all. I mean, I used to drink a little bit of wine as, you know, my parents did, you know, and, you know, they gave me some wine when I was a kid. But yeah, I kind of studied psychology as a degree. So I'm from the UK. So from a small county called Wiltshire. So in the countryside in the UK, not many vines there, obviously. You know, I suppose with global warming now there are some vineyards obviously planted in the vicinity, but not really in that area. Actually, it's more in the sort of southeast of the UK. So yeah, so I studied psychology as my degree. Um, so after university, I, I wanted to work in banking, um, so investment banking, um, which, um, I did. So my first career was in investment banking. Um, so I worked, um, um, in sort of equity research, um, helping, um, analysts put their sort of, you know, um, well, their sort of whether they should buy, sell, whatever, um, their reports together. So, um, so yeah, it was, you know, I would, I kind of never imagined that, you know, I'd be working in the wine business really. So, um. But yeah, I left the banking industry after I kind of enjoyed it, but I wasn't passionate about it. And so I decided to take a career break and go and learn a language. So I went to Mendoza in Argentina to learn Spanish.
Speaker #0
Learn the language? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was living in Mendoza, surrounded by vineyards. I mean, obviously, you know what everyone should know. But Mendoza is the province where 80% of wine is produced in Argentina. So, yeah, I got to meet a lot of people that worked in the wine business. And then I kind of thought, okay, well, actually, why not a career in the wine industry? So I kind of did it. I started a sommelier course when I was in Mendoza, did that. And then I was sort of Googling, looking for further education in... in wine because obviously i had a very you know i had a cv that was you know business like banking yeah exactly and nothing to do with wine so um so i saw um back in the uk there was an mba in wine business management that was offered at um the royal agricultural um university in cirencester which is about agriculture obviously um and they had some experimental vineyards and so they offered this in their business school. So... I kind of enrolled on that course, came back to the UK, did that for 18 months as a mature student in my sort of, you know, mid-20s. Got that MBA and then that helped me then at least have some sort of, you know, qualification in wine to then be able to get some employment in the UK. So I started working at Majestic Wine, which is a retailer that's quite well known in the UK. And yeah, and then got the job. at Christie's as a junior specialist in 2005. Okay,
Speaker #0
so it's been 20 years already. Yeah,
Speaker #1
over 20 years. So yes, exactly. Yeah, so I started as a junior specialist and I've sort of worked my way up from junior specialist to, you know, specialist to senior specialist. And now I'm international director at Christie's. And I guess, yeah, I mean, I can explain what my role is at Christie's, which is, so I'm, Yeah, being the international director, obviously, I'm responsible for trying to get business wine and spirits consignments into our auctions internationally. So we at Christie's, we have auctions in London, Hong Kong, New York and Los Angeles. So I'm trying to get people to sell their wines and spirits in these locations. Bye. Obviously, then, you know, the whole process from kind of, you know, the inspections, the authentication, the condition reports, you know, I'm involved in that. I'm doing valuations is, you know, a big part of my job because we do sell a lot of, you know, fine and rare wines that are, you know, mature vintages that are, you know, quite rare and pretty difficult to price, to be honest. because a lot of the wines we're selling is maybe they're They're not in the market. It's difficult to find. So that expertise of doing valuations, I think, is key. I'm an auctioneer. So I stand up in the rostrum with a gavel. That must be quick. Yeah, it's quite exhilarating. I mean, particularly, yeah, if you've got a lot of bidding coming, it can be great fun. And also, I do kind of talks, masterclasses, and sort of act as a… I guess, a kind of wine and spirits ambassador for Christie's globally. So actually, after being in Macau, I'm heading off to, I'm going to Hong Kong, going to Bangkok, and then going to Tokyo. And I'm doing some kind of masterclasses and a few little events just for, you know, some key clients. And so that's the sort of thing I get up to, really.
Speaker #0
So just to come back a little to the beginning of your career at Christie's, you said you started as a junior specialist.
Speaker #1
specialist what does it look like uh in terms of like working at christie's being a junior specialist is just like you arrive and you try to find wines like what do well i mean yeah i guess more back then as a junior specialist you're more involved in the kind of the processing um of the the kind of you know the the wines and or the auctions you know so it's more of a kind of I mean, there is obviously your... developing that expertise but it's more about the kind of you know second part of the process yeah the processing so it wasn't really uh the business getting like you know the sourcing of consignments that wasn't really um part of my remit back when i first started so it was just learning the ropes um you know learning how to value wines learning how to inspect wines um you know when when we're looking at old vintages of of wines i mean um you know the the kind of the condition is is key so you know the the conditions of the labels, the capsules, particularly the ullage level. So, you know, of the wine. Yeah, exactly. Interneck, you know, base neck, top shoulder, whatever. You know, we need to make sure that everything that we're inspecting is, you know, in good condition, is saleable. The colors of the wines are good. And so because obviously we don't want to be putting stuff into an auction, putting wines into an auction that is sort of out of condition if, you know, if it's a white wine, if it's gone really bad. brown or if it's a red wine and it's lost its red color then you know that that kind of inspection is is key so as a junior yeah you're i'm i was kind of told what to do to be honest and and um so um so yeah but it was it was a great obviously learning experience and and i had you know great team um in london that were sort of instrumental in in in my career really um um so um i mean one of them chris monroe he's still at christie's he's um head of new york now but um um david elsewhere. who sadly passed. He was a great boss. And obviously Michael Broadbent as well, who's a master of wine. I mean, he was around when I first started at Christie's and was pretty influential in my career. And it was quite, yeah, I mean, yeah, he obviously wrote amazing books. And I mean, I'd asked him to sign one of his books that he'd written. And I kind of read it afterwards and he said, dear Tim, I have full confidence in And... you becoming a master of wine one day so um i was like well that i use that as a kind of a motivation to to to you know to you know do the master of wine and eventually um succeed at passing the the master wine which is obviously quite a difficult exam
Speaker #0
to pass coming from uh from michael broadbent it must have been a kind of a good encouragement to to get past the master of wine yeah when did you go for master of wine well i started studying for the master wine in 2010
Speaker #1
Um, so I previously I'd done the WSET diploma, which a lot of people do as a stepping stone onto the master of wine. Um, so I started in 2010 and then I passed, I passed the theory on the first attempt. Um, then I, that year I'd failed the tasting. Then the next year I was very confident that I would pass the tasting and I think I did worse than the previous year. But, um, but then, um, and then I, I, I had a gap because I moved to Hong Kong in 2013. So it was a new role in Hong Kong, still at Christie's. So it was a sort of a secondment.
Speaker #0
Still adaptation to life.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was just, yes, exactly. You know, different environment, a lot of, so I focused more on kind of, you know, that and didn't really have the time for studying because studying for the Master of Wine, you have to sort of dedicate all your kind of, you know, your weekends, your social life kind of obviously, you know. particularly around exam time, you're sort of saying, no, sorry, I can't go out. I'm studying. So, yeah. And then also, obviously, the exams are back in London. So, for the first two years I was living in Hong Kong, I wasn't in the program, but I rejoined and then managed to pass the tasting in 2016. So, the blind tasting is what I guess most people struggle with in terms of, you know, they're passing their qualification. So I did that in 2016 and then took a couple of years over my research paper, which I did on champagne, which was actually great fun to do because I got to go to champagne quite a lot, develop a real expertise in the region and the wines, meet great winemakers.
Speaker #0
You've been acclaimed for these tastes as well, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yes, exactly. I won the Noval Award, sponsored by Quinton Noval, for the best research paper in that year. So, yeah, it was, so that was, that was in, and so 2018 is when I finally, you know, got the, the award of Master of Wine.
Speaker #0
And was it like a stepping stone to becoming an international wine director for Christie's or was it?
Speaker #1
I think, yes, I think it helped. Yes, it was, it helped. But, but yeah, I think it was, yeah, it was a stepping stone onto that.
Speaker #0
And so your thesis was about champagne.
Speaker #1
So I looked into the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage and assessed over a 20-year period whether there'd been any significant changes in the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage. So I found over that sort of 20-year period from 1995 to 2005, I guess I was studying, sorry, 2015. um that um uh the the use had significantly increased of reserve wines so so um champagne producers were were using much higher proportions of reserve wines in their brut non-vintage so producing a more you know complex style a richer style rather than a kind of um you know more of a a sort of a you know yeah well obviously reserve wines had that sort of aged element that complexities so um so i think um yeah it was yeah i mean it kind of was related to dosage levels as well. So during that time, as reserve wines were going up, dosage levels were coming down. So there's a relationship between those two because obviously dosage, adding sugar, was a way of kind of masking that raw base kind of vintage that was the majority of Bruton on vintage. And so if you add more reserve wine, then you don't have so much of that. raw sort of very acidic base wine so um you don't need so much exactly yeah yeah um you're based in hong kong no no so i moved um so i was in hong kong for four years so 2016 i'm then moved back to london and yeah i live in london now how do you um how do you source uh the wines that you're setting i guess it's a kind of a battle with other
Speaker #0
other um uh like
Speaker #1
agencies or i don't know how we yeah i mean it's competitive yeah it's very competitive um uh out there but um i mean um obviously well christie's is a as a an auction house um um so yeah we've we yeah i mean we've been doing um sales since uh 1766 so um that very first sale that um james christie did included wine so you know we're continuing that kind of tradition today So, I mean... we you know that obviously helps because a lot of people around the world you know know the christie's brand yeah so we do get quite a lot of people approaching us but then i also have to be proactive and try and contact people that you know i think have big collections um and try and convince them to to you know sell their their wines um um and spirits at christie's so well
Speaker #0
I guess you must have your method, but like you... You look for people recently buying old houses, people like, I don't know, like a succession in big families.
Speaker #1
A little bit like that. I mean, yes, there's obviously many different elements to getting wines. I mean, at Christie's, I mean, we have got a big network of colleagues around the world. We've got, you know, offices, I think, in 40 different countries with, you know, representatives that are, you know. very close to kind of, you know, the collectors that are in these respective countries and cities. So, you know, a lot comes through them. But I mean, doing things like going to Bangkok or going to Tokyo and meeting up with clients, you know, that's a good way of developing business. But I guess, well, we quite often say that, you know, death. um divorce and duties so i mean you know like you know so um you know if people um have a big tax bill maybe they might sell some wine or you know but i mean i mean that's a bit of a joke but but you know it's um but nowadays it's i mean we look back and see who potentially has been buying a lot of wine from us over the last few years and then you can and then yeah because um a lot of people who are you know collectors of wine probably will collect a lot of a lot of wine and and decide okay well maybe you know if their tastes change or their circumstances change or they just realize that they've got far too much wine that they can ever drink then you know they're probably you know right before selling through through christie's yeah maybe they want to like sell part of the collection buy new wines after exactly yeah yeah that goes wider in diversity and yeah exactly i mean you have to monitor your cellar as well your collection You can't, you know... Wine has a finite life. So, you know, you've got to, yeah, maybe replenish it with younger vintages. And so, yeah, collectors are often sort of, you know, selling some of the older stuff and buying some of the newer vintages.
Speaker #0
So there are two things that are super interesting about China, I guess, for you. And so we can, like, do these two parts. The first one is about the Chinese clients, because I guess over the, like, past 30 years, the number of Chinese clients to Christie's and the interest to wine by Chinese must have like surged dramatically. And the other part of the question is the interest for Chinese wines. I guess that 20 years ago, it was, I won't say impossible, but I guess that Chinese wines were not even a topic for auction house. I guess it's, I don't know if it's changing yet, but maybe in like a few years, you would start to have... really expensive Chinese wines and where Chinese wines that you want to auction as well. So these are like my two interrogations. So maybe we can start by Chinese clients.
Speaker #1
I mean, I think the big catalyst for this was 2008 and when the duty on wine was reduced to zero in Hong Kong. And that led to a boom of interest in wine in the region. So certainly, I mean, yes, since then. um it's yeah been hugely important to to um yeah the wine industry in general really the fine well the fine wine industry certainly um so it yes it that was very important um and um yeah i mean obviously it's um you
Speaker #0
know hugely important to christie's maybe not only china but also asia southeast asia yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah i mean it's yeah i mean a lot of people will
Speaker #1
maybe store their wines in Hong Kong nowadays because of the, you know, the ease of getting wines into Hong Kong. And then, you know, they come to Hong Kong and enjoy, you know, drinking their wines in Hong Kong. So, yes, yeah, exactly. And then getting to your question about, you know, wines from China. Yeah, I mean, yes, they don't appear in the secondary market, really. I mean, maybe. Yeah, I think so. But them. But certainly, I mean, from the wines I've been tasting in the awards, there's certainly potential for these wines to be appearing in the secondary market, I think. Obviously, yeah, there's some, you know, famous names, you know, the Au Yun from LVMH, you know. But yeah, I mean, the quality is getting higher than ever. I've been doing this competition wins for three years now. And I think, yeah, each year the... the standard of the um the wines that we're tasting is um um being higher than ever and um obviously i can't give anything away about who's won or well i don't know actually to use one everything is done blind so but i do know that you know we've been awarding many more medals um this year than than previously so um so yeah i think the standard is higher than ever and Obviously, you know, I think it's a sort of a virtuous sort of... um circle um because you know doing something like the win awards where you're um rewarding those top winemakers in in in china um for their wine so they get recognition for what they're doing then that gets obviously fed back so you know then they will you know there'll be more sort of you know um i guess well obviously they'll be happy and emotional that inspiration for you know improving further so um So, yeah, I think, you know, yeah, who knows? Yeah, in the future, I think it could certainly be, yeah, wines from China appearing in the secondary market.
Speaker #0
And even for others, it can be a good benchmark and inspiration. You know, if you didn't get a medal, you still have the feedback from the judges.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
You can.
Speaker #1
taste your neighbors see what's going on why did they get a medal then you try to improve and yeah yeah and on and on definitely yeah exactly yeah yeah so yeah i mean we you know as judges when we're judging this competition we're you know we're writing tasting notes for all the wines so and um you know if if there are issues with certain wines then you know we quite often would you know give that feedback so i think it yeah it does get back to the producers so they they can yeah obviously taste the ones that are winning but also if if they haven't won away um you know
Speaker #0
awards then um then hopefully they're getting some feedback from from us saying you know okay well you know that so they can then improve what they're they're doing so chinese wines are not yet uh represented in auctions because so for the factors that that we've discussed but over these last 20 years did you see kind of a rotation on the type of wines that you're having in auctions
Speaker #1
I mean yes yeah definitely when I've I've First started at Christie's in 2005. I mean, Bordeaux was very dominant in the kind of, yeah, the secondary market, the fine wine auction market. And Burgundy was, you know, just a small portion of that. And then, so yeah, since, you know, 2012, then, yeah, I think, yeah, there's been a big boom in interest in Burgundy. So initially, I guess it was. red Burgundy, but now, so both, you know, red and white Burgundy has become very popular. So, so that is, I guess, a significant change. I mean, Bordeaux is still, you know, really important for, for the secondary market that Christie's, you know, we sell a lot of Bordeaux. And I mean, the quality coming out of Bordeaux is exceptional nowadays. I mean, it's, you know, the wines that's being produced there are better than ever. So, so yeah, it's still vitally important, but Burgundy is obviously taking some of that, that market share, but there's been a diversification in the market um since um since then i mean we're you know seeing wines from um you know italy appearing on a regular basis i mean the super tuscans you know they're like you know here to stay um wines from spain you know they talk wines vegas sicilia pingas that sort of thing um but um yeah and then then yeah i mean even you know yeah some you know wine Australian wines that few from Chile, I guess, and like, you know, Vignaero Chadwick, we did, we sold some wines from them last year at Christie's. So, yeah, there is certainly a bit of a diversification in the market. But I mean, you know, I guess France dominates what we're doing at Christie's. So, yeah, it's, yeah, French wines are still, I guess you're from France. Yeah, yeah. So you'll probably be happy to hear this.
Speaker #0
I'm happy about that, but I think it's also like you have this difference in the market. Like, you know, it's been a few years that we experience amazing wines from around the world. But I guess for the time it reaches the secondary market, you have like 10 to 20 years before it's on par with the rest. So like maybe those rising stars in like 10 years is going to be almost equivalent to Bordeaux or Burgundy in your volumes.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, yeah.
Speaker #0
Maybe not, but yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
There's still a lot of wines in Bordeaux and Burgundy to sell, so. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Who knows? Yeah, I mean, I think probably Bordeaux and Burgundy will still be dominating things. But I mean, obviously, yeah, you know, yeah, I think there will be a bit of diversification. But yeah, I think France is still going to be dominating, I think.
Speaker #0
And in the place where you have auctions, so you told us you have 14 different offices in the world. 40. 40, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
But we don't, I mean, those offices. don't necessarily do auctions so the auctions are in in particular locations um so for wine it's um london hong kong uh new york and los angeles um just that's where we have wine sales but i mean we have auctions in um you know in other other locations yeah those are categories yeah exactly i mean christie's is you know yeah we sell all sorts of different things from watches yeah watches cars um classic cars now handbags um art is probably, you know, obviously art is the main focus of Christie's business.
Speaker #0
Do you see different tastes depending on dislocation for wine? Like people in Los Angeles tend to buy like a lot of Burgundy and people in Hong Kong a lot of Bordeaux?
Speaker #1
A little bit. I mean, but it is a global marketplace nowadays and so I think, you know, there is maybe there are some small kind of differences, but generally the you know, what sells well in London and sells well in Hong Kong and vice versa. So, I mean, I guess maybe, yeah. So, yeah, I don't think there's much difference because we have, you know, people are buying, like if you're based in Asia, you'll probably also be buying in our sales in London, for example. So, yeah, there's a bit of a, you know, maybe there's some peculiarities such as like you know Vintage Port probably does better in London because, yeah, we've got that sort of tradition of, you know, drinking a lot of vintage port, whereas, you know, in Asia.
Speaker #0
perhaps not so but um but yeah but generally it's um yeah quite similar in the different locations yeah plus the education for example about port must be super different uh like in france we drink kind of low quality port yeah a lot of ruby port you know for dessert or or like beginning of a dinner so i'm not sure we would like bid a lot to vintage port yeah sort of yeah yeah i mean yeah like a 1931 kids in the val or something like that yeah that
Speaker #1
but it was sold well in London.
Speaker #0
I would still drink it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's one of the best ports I've ever drunk, that particular port.
Speaker #0
So you've been doing this Chinese Wine Awards for three years now.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can you tell us a bit more about, so I think you're a senior judge or co-chair? Yes,
Speaker #1
a senior judge.
Speaker #0
So senior judge. So how does that work? I guess since you're kind of a... someone who comes here often now how do you like do you introduce a bit chinese wines to some people i guess some judges are not super familiar with with chinese wines so how do you try to like i don't know tell them the stories of of chinese wines how do you well i mean part of about
Speaker #1
the awards is um we have um a great kind of educational seminars like every morning before the actual awards we have like an for the last three years we've had like a lecture about, you know, you know, particular, you know, wine regions in China or, or, um, or that sort of thing. So he's doing that. Well, one of the, yes. So we've had, you know, like great lectures from, um, you know, professor Mar and professor Lee from, you know, universities in, in, in, in mainland China who are, you know, they're experts in, in, in Chinese wine. So we've been having that expertise given to us about, um, you know, yeah. So it's a great, Great. So, actually, I mean, one of the benefits of coming to this awards is that, you know, I am actually learning a fair bit about, you know, Chinese wines that we have. And then we have masterclasses at the end of the judging day, which don't necessarily involve Chinese wines, but it's a good way of learning. I mean, yesterday we had Jasper Morris, MW, doing a masterclass on Burgundy. So, that was a real highlight. Tasted some very nice Burgundy. So, yes. But I guess going back to your question about me sort of, you know, influencing, we don't need that because we are getting that information from it as well. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to be honest, I mean, when we're judging, we're judging completely unbiased. So, you know, we're just judging the quality of the wine. You know, we're judging it as is it sort of, you know. complex is it harmonious is it balanced is it got you know you know all those elements that that some you know wine should have um so um so yeah i think you you maybe you don't really need to have that background information um if you know if you're judging wine i mean you don't really get that much information um to be honest because you don't want to be influenced by you know you've got to you know as a professional judge you've got to be impartial you've got to judge it on its merits on what you
Speaker #0
tastes in that class how does the um this type of award or this type of like um ratings uh influence uh auctions afterwards i guess uh for you on the bordeaux burgundy this is uh this is important i mean critic
Speaker #1
scores uh yes i mean i guess they are important um you know um uh so yeah i mean it does It's maybe, yeah, I think it's a...
Speaker #0
maybe less important now than it was maybe 10 years ago or, you know, 15 years ago when, you know, some of the critics were, you know, extremely sort of influential. You know, I guess, you know, Robert Parker would give a score, you know, wine a score of 100 points, then, you know, that would lead to a, you know, significant. Massive surge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, so less, I think less so now. But I mean, I think, you know, scores are, you know, people, people, you know. look at scores they have obviously confidence in in wines that are scoring highly so um so i think it does influence the the market a little bit a little bit but less so now than previously what what is the the craziest uh auction that that you did like do you have a specific memory of a day you were doing an auction and um something well i mean it probably i yeah when we sold um um i mean this was a back in 2018. And we were offering a bottle of Macallan 1926, so a bottle of whiskey from Scotland. And, I mean, it was an incredible day because it sort of smashed the world auction record, you know, going over. It sold for 1.2 million pounds for one bottle. So that was kind of pretty incredible. And I've been involved in the whole process from, you know, trying to, well, helping with the. the vendor getting, you know, getting the bottle into sale and then also trying to, you know, obviously then once we got into sale, trying to find people that were interested in buying it. And, um, um, and it was, um, yeah, amazing that we, you know, obviously, you know, that, that it was an amazing, amazing day and did extremely well. So yeah, that was a pretty amazing day. So I remember when it, yeah, when the hammer went down, you know, and, um, yeah, I mean, there was a round of applause in the auction room. Cause I mean, it was a pretty historic day, you know, smashing that. So one million pound barrier. And I mean, it was significantly more than anything that had ever sold before. So yeah, that was pretty exhilarating.
Speaker #1
I guess selling one bottle for 1.5 million euros must be crazy.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
How do you... So a question that is always present on the secondary market for every item is authentication, whether it's for a watch, bag, or I guess a bottle of wine. Yeah. And it's why I guess people tend to go to...
Speaker #0
big auction houses is that you have this like kind of stamp of quality checks how do you make sure that what you propose to the the people is uh real and and true yeah well i mean yeah yeah for wine yeah well it's yeah it's very important um you know it's it's yeah well crucial really um that um we make sure that everything that we're we're selling is is yeah authentic. So, I mean... Obviously, the expertise that we have at Christie's over many decades. But initially, it's really provenance is key. So where have these wines and spirits come from? So if we don't get that information from the vendor, then we tend to just walk away. So say, sorry, you can't give the provenance for that bottle of Romany Conti or whatever. So we need that sort of... trail of like where it's come from that it's a to um um yeah verify that you know where it's come from so yeah but um so yeah if we have any doubts obviously we just yeah we can't accept things for sale so um so yeah so people can have you know the utmost confidence in in what is being offered for sale at christie's so like a good a good point if i have wines that i want to sell to christie's is having the invoice keep the invoices exactly yeah yeah exactly okay and then we have a team
Speaker #1
So I guess you test, you evaluate the quality of the bottle, what you were doing as a junior specialist. So level of the wine, quality of the label type of thing. Do you also have like a team checking the quality of the wine in one way or another?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, if we would ask for, you know, tasting samples of, yeah, to, you know, but quite a lot of the actual kind of sellers that we go and see, you know, in situ, you know, like where it's been stored. So, I mean, recently I went you know there's a potential vendor so i went to that country had a look at the storage conditions um to make sure that i was i was you know happy with um you know how they've been stored so so yeah so that's it's you know so we often do that um you must see crazy things in there interesting interesting yeah interesting places where people are yeah i mean yeah some some great wine sellers i mean yeah some fantastic wine sellers that i've been lucky enough to to see but um but yeah a lot of our wines are you know stored in professional storage warehouses so um so that's um yeah that's romantic yeah yeah exactly yeah like a yeah a set iron secret door yeah exactly yeah yeah you've seen like james bond type of things um yes yeah yeah i mean yes similar kind of things yeah with you know like retina kind of sort of scan to open like you know yeah um the doors just um yeah and um or you know thumbprints and all that sort of stuff and and people converting all sorts of areas of their houses into into wine cellars when they when they get that collecting bug i suppose you want to yeah keep your wine in in amazing conditions and and uh yeah and yeah so some yeah interesting interesting things that i've seen yeah
Speaker #1
Can't wait to do it for myself as well. I will definitely do this James Bond type of things, retinas, fingerprint, everything. Well, thank you very much, Tim, for this interview. I want to make sure we stick to the timing that we followed. It's been super interesting to learn more about your journey, learn more about your perception of Chinese wines, like perception of Chinese wines in an auction house as well.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I'm sure we're going to see Chinese wines in like 20 years or probably.
Speaker #0
Hopefully, hopefully, it may be sooner.
Speaker #1
I have three last questions that are a bit of a tradition in this podcast. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, I think I would have to recommend Vintage Wine, which is the book written by Michael Broadbent, which I still use as a reference today. minutes got. like he was he tasted some like incredible wines and and was meticulous with his um um you know note-taking um so i think that would be i mean that's the book that he actually signed and and was in my inspiration for you know studying the master of wine and becoming a master of wine so i think um that that book is kind of you know even though it was published a long time ago i still use it in my in my daily job um you know referring back to you know older vintages of wine that um you know I've never tasted but obviously Michael was lucky enough to taste and getting his sort of opinion on that and so yeah so that would be my suggestion for a book it's a difficult recommendation because then you want to taste the wines actually described true
Speaker #1
I had this experience with like a winemaker in Burgundy who offered me a book by Jacques Errigo about so it was like vintages in Burgundy from 1875 to today okay and so the guy actually tasted like all the vintage and wrote a note about weather the wine by itself like all that type of things and then you read that and you're like maybe i should taste it and then you look at the price on christie's and you're like no no way i'm tasting that today but
Speaker #0
maybe in a few years do you have a recent wine that you tasted and that you you found amazing um well obviously i should say that um it was one of the the Chinese wines that I've just tasted in the judging competition. But obviously, I have, yeah, there was a great wines in there. But obviously, I have no idea what they were, because everything is judged blind. So all the bottles are completely covered up, and you don't know what it is. But I guess, I mean, I think one of the sort of wines that sticks in my memory is a Mouton Rothschild 1945, which I had on a couple occasions, and it's like an incredible wine. So I think that... that probably would be my kind of standout wine, I think. So, yeah, amazing vintage 45. And, yeah, I mean, it's incredible how it's aged. I mean, it's still, you know, like going strong. I mean, it's an amazing wine.
Speaker #1
I've never tasted a 45, but I've tasted a few. On specific occasions, it was already amazing. So I can just imagine what 45 looks like. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Goodness. I mean, I don't know who you've already interviewed, to be honest. But I mean, I know perhaps another master of wine, maybe. I mean, Jancis Robinson, have you ever interviewed her?
Speaker #1
Never interviewed. We did a lot of master of wine, but Jancis, not yet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, Jancis, I think maybe. Yeah, try and get in touch with Jancis and see if she'll... she's um yeah lovely and um yeah um she's great i mean she's yeah been in so influential in in in the wine world and um she's yeah so she's yeah a great person and and i think she's yeah she's yeah i'm obviously based in london so i guess you'll have to come to london it
Speaker #1
would be a terrible moment but if we can still meet the agencies and have nice a glass of wine it will be it will soften the and difficult moment of being in London. But we're based in Hong Kong, so it's okay. Now we have this adaptation to Double Decker and that type of thing. Yeah, well,
Speaker #0
exactly. Well, there's literally like that casino, the Londoner, just across the road from here, that's got like London buses and Downing Street and various things, so you can get a little taste of London here in Macau.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true. Thank you very much for all of this, Tim. Thank you for taking the time. If you like this interview, don't forget to like it, to share it, to subscribe to the channel, to do everything you already know. Thanks a lot, Tim, for taking this time. I wish you beautiful auctions, I guess, for the future.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, we've got two auctions happening today, actually, in London. So one starts at... 10 p.m. our time here, 2 p.m. in London, some Karazawa, so Japanese whiskey. And then at 2.30, 10.30 Macau time, it's going to be some amazing Burgundy from René Engel. So, yeah, we've got lots of amazing auctions coming up. And also in Hong Kong at the moment, we've got an online sale that runs until the 17th of March. So check out Christy's website because it's, yes, amazing kind of Bordeaux, Burgundy, some Particularly highlights some great first growths, Lafitte, and a great collection of Petrus as well being sold out of Hong Kong. So yeah, look at Christie's.com, please.
Speaker #1
We'll put the link in the description to this episode. Thanks, Tim, and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Okay, thank you very much.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Expect a 1.2-million-pound bottle of whisky, a champagne dosage deep-dive, and a very honest take on why Bordeaux still dominates the room. Tune in!

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 Michael Broadbent's Vintage Wine, by Michael Broadbent

🍷 Check the Wynn Signature Chinese Wine Awards

🧑🏼‍⚖️ Learn more about Christie’s Auction House

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best Wine Map of the Champagne region: as information as decorative

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ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Tim.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for taking the time for this interview. I know you've had some busy days before today. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Chinese wines, about auctions, about wine valorization, a lot of things like that. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. Well, my name is Tim Triptory. I'm the International Director of Wines and Spirits at Christie's Auction House and I'm also a master of wine And so, yeah, I'm obviously a judge at the Wynn Signature China Wine Awards. So hence, I'm here in Macau. So, yeah, that's me.
Speaker #0
So how did you start your wine journey?
Speaker #1
Well, I mean, I kind of, you know, grew up in a family, obviously not connected to the wine business at all. I mean, I used to drink a little bit of wine as, you know, my parents did, you know, and, you know, they gave me some wine when I was a kid. But yeah, I kind of studied psychology as a degree. So I'm from the UK. So from a small county called Wiltshire. So in the countryside in the UK, not many vines there, obviously. You know, I suppose with global warming now there are some vineyards obviously planted in the vicinity, but not really in that area. Actually, it's more in the sort of southeast of the UK. So yeah, so I studied psychology as my degree. Um, so after university, I, I wanted to work in banking, um, so investment banking, um, which, um, I did. So my first career was in investment banking. Um, so I worked, um, um, in sort of equity research, um, helping, um, analysts put their sort of, you know, um, well, their sort of whether they should buy, sell, whatever, um, their reports together. So, um, so yeah, it was, you know, I would, I kind of never imagined that, you know, I'd be working in the wine business really. So, um. But yeah, I left the banking industry after I kind of enjoyed it, but I wasn't passionate about it. And so I decided to take a career break and go and learn a language. So I went to Mendoza in Argentina to learn Spanish.
Speaker #0
Learn the language? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was living in Mendoza, surrounded by vineyards. I mean, obviously, you know what everyone should know. But Mendoza is the province where 80% of wine is produced in Argentina. So, yeah, I got to meet a lot of people that worked in the wine business. And then I kind of thought, okay, well, actually, why not a career in the wine industry? So I kind of did it. I started a sommelier course when I was in Mendoza, did that. And then I was sort of Googling, looking for further education in... in wine because obviously i had a very you know i had a cv that was you know business like banking yeah exactly and nothing to do with wine so um so i saw um back in the uk there was an mba in wine business management that was offered at um the royal agricultural um university in cirencester which is about agriculture obviously um and they had some experimental vineyards and so they offered this in their business school. So... I kind of enrolled on that course, came back to the UK, did that for 18 months as a mature student in my sort of, you know, mid-20s. Got that MBA and then that helped me then at least have some sort of, you know, qualification in wine to then be able to get some employment in the UK. So I started working at Majestic Wine, which is a retailer that's quite well known in the UK. And yeah, and then got the job. at Christie's as a junior specialist in 2005. Okay,
Speaker #0
so it's been 20 years already. Yeah,
Speaker #1
over 20 years. So yes, exactly. Yeah, so I started as a junior specialist and I've sort of worked my way up from junior specialist to, you know, specialist to senior specialist. And now I'm international director at Christie's. And I guess, yeah, I mean, I can explain what my role is at Christie's, which is, so I'm, Yeah, being the international director, obviously, I'm responsible for trying to get business wine and spirits consignments into our auctions internationally. So we at Christie's, we have auctions in London, Hong Kong, New York and Los Angeles. So I'm trying to get people to sell their wines and spirits in these locations. Bye. Obviously, then, you know, the whole process from kind of, you know, the inspections, the authentication, the condition reports, you know, I'm involved in that. I'm doing valuations is, you know, a big part of my job because we do sell a lot of, you know, fine and rare wines that are, you know, mature vintages that are, you know, quite rare and pretty difficult to price, to be honest. because a lot of the wines we're selling is maybe they're They're not in the market. It's difficult to find. So that expertise of doing valuations, I think, is key. I'm an auctioneer. So I stand up in the rostrum with a gavel. That must be quick. Yeah, it's quite exhilarating. I mean, particularly, yeah, if you've got a lot of bidding coming, it can be great fun. And also, I do kind of talks, masterclasses, and sort of act as a… I guess, a kind of wine and spirits ambassador for Christie's globally. So actually, after being in Macau, I'm heading off to, I'm going to Hong Kong, going to Bangkok, and then going to Tokyo. And I'm doing some kind of masterclasses and a few little events just for, you know, some key clients. And so that's the sort of thing I get up to, really.
Speaker #0
So just to come back a little to the beginning of your career at Christie's, you said you started as a junior specialist.
Speaker #1
specialist what does it look like uh in terms of like working at christie's being a junior specialist is just like you arrive and you try to find wines like what do well i mean yeah i guess more back then as a junior specialist you're more involved in the kind of the processing um of the the kind of you know the the wines and or the auctions you know so it's more of a kind of I mean, there is obviously your... developing that expertise but it's more about the kind of you know second part of the process yeah the processing so it wasn't really uh the business getting like you know the sourcing of consignments that wasn't really um part of my remit back when i first started so it was just learning the ropes um you know learning how to value wines learning how to inspect wines um you know when when we're looking at old vintages of of wines i mean um you know the the kind of the condition is is key so you know the the conditions of the labels, the capsules, particularly the ullage level. So, you know, of the wine. Yeah, exactly. Interneck, you know, base neck, top shoulder, whatever. You know, we need to make sure that everything that we're inspecting is, you know, in good condition, is saleable. The colors of the wines are good. And so because obviously we don't want to be putting stuff into an auction, putting wines into an auction that is sort of out of condition if, you know, if it's a white wine, if it's gone really bad. brown or if it's a red wine and it's lost its red color then you know that that kind of inspection is is key so as a junior yeah you're i'm i was kind of told what to do to be honest and and um so um so yeah but it was it was a great obviously learning experience and and i had you know great team um in london that were sort of instrumental in in in my career really um um so um i mean one of them chris monroe he's still at christie's he's um head of new york now but um um david elsewhere. who sadly passed. He was a great boss. And obviously Michael Broadbent as well, who's a master of wine. I mean, he was around when I first started at Christie's and was pretty influential in my career. And it was quite, yeah, I mean, yeah, he obviously wrote amazing books. And I mean, I'd asked him to sign one of his books that he'd written. And I kind of read it afterwards and he said, dear Tim, I have full confidence in And... you becoming a master of wine one day so um i was like well that i use that as a kind of a motivation to to to you know to you know do the master of wine and eventually um succeed at passing the the master wine which is obviously quite a difficult exam
Speaker #0
to pass coming from uh from michael broadbent it must have been a kind of a good encouragement to to get past the master of wine yeah when did you go for master of wine well i started studying for the master wine in 2010
Speaker #1
Um, so I previously I'd done the WSET diploma, which a lot of people do as a stepping stone onto the master of wine. Um, so I started in 2010 and then I passed, I passed the theory on the first attempt. Um, then I, that year I'd failed the tasting. Then the next year I was very confident that I would pass the tasting and I think I did worse than the previous year. But, um, but then, um, and then I, I, I had a gap because I moved to Hong Kong in 2013. So it was a new role in Hong Kong, still at Christie's. So it was a sort of a secondment.
Speaker #0
Still adaptation to life.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was just, yes, exactly. You know, different environment, a lot of, so I focused more on kind of, you know, that and didn't really have the time for studying because studying for the Master of Wine, you have to sort of dedicate all your kind of, you know, your weekends, your social life kind of obviously, you know. particularly around exam time, you're sort of saying, no, sorry, I can't go out. I'm studying. So, yeah. And then also, obviously, the exams are back in London. So, for the first two years I was living in Hong Kong, I wasn't in the program, but I rejoined and then managed to pass the tasting in 2016. So, the blind tasting is what I guess most people struggle with in terms of, you know, they're passing their qualification. So I did that in 2016 and then took a couple of years over my research paper, which I did on champagne, which was actually great fun to do because I got to go to champagne quite a lot, develop a real expertise in the region and the wines, meet great winemakers.
Speaker #0
You've been acclaimed for these tastes as well, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yes, exactly. I won the Noval Award, sponsored by Quinton Noval, for the best research paper in that year. So, yeah, it was, so that was, that was in, and so 2018 is when I finally, you know, got the, the award of Master of Wine.
Speaker #0
And was it like a stepping stone to becoming an international wine director for Christie's or was it?
Speaker #1
I think, yes, I think it helped. Yes, it was, it helped. But, but yeah, I think it was, yeah, it was a stepping stone onto that.
Speaker #0
And so your thesis was about champagne.
Speaker #1
So I looked into the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage and assessed over a 20-year period whether there'd been any significant changes in the use of reserve wines in Bruton on Vintage. So I found over that sort of 20-year period from 1995 to 2005, I guess I was studying, sorry, 2015. um that um uh the the use had significantly increased of reserve wines so so um champagne producers were were using much higher proportions of reserve wines in their brut non-vintage so producing a more you know complex style a richer style rather than a kind of um you know more of a a sort of a you know yeah well obviously reserve wines had that sort of aged element that complexities so um so i think um yeah it was yeah i mean it kind of was related to dosage levels as well. So during that time, as reserve wines were going up, dosage levels were coming down. So there's a relationship between those two because obviously dosage, adding sugar, was a way of kind of masking that raw base kind of vintage that was the majority of Bruton on vintage. And so if you add more reserve wine, then you don't have so much of that. raw sort of very acidic base wine so um you don't need so much exactly yeah yeah um you're based in hong kong no no so i moved um so i was in hong kong for four years so 2016 i'm then moved back to london and yeah i live in london now how do you um how do you source uh the wines that you're setting i guess it's a kind of a battle with other
Speaker #0
other um uh like
Speaker #1
agencies or i don't know how we yeah i mean it's competitive yeah it's very competitive um uh out there but um i mean um obviously well christie's is a as a an auction house um um so yeah we've we yeah i mean we've been doing um sales since uh 1766 so um that very first sale that um james christie did included wine so you know we're continuing that kind of tradition today So, I mean... we you know that obviously helps because a lot of people around the world you know know the christie's brand yeah so we do get quite a lot of people approaching us but then i also have to be proactive and try and contact people that you know i think have big collections um and try and convince them to to you know sell their their wines um um and spirits at christie's so well
Speaker #0
I guess you must have your method, but like you... You look for people recently buying old houses, people like, I don't know, like a succession in big families.
Speaker #1
A little bit like that. I mean, yes, there's obviously many different elements to getting wines. I mean, at Christie's, I mean, we have got a big network of colleagues around the world. We've got, you know, offices, I think, in 40 different countries with, you know, representatives that are, you know. very close to kind of, you know, the collectors that are in these respective countries and cities. So, you know, a lot comes through them. But I mean, doing things like going to Bangkok or going to Tokyo and meeting up with clients, you know, that's a good way of developing business. But I guess, well, we quite often say that, you know, death. um divorce and duties so i mean you know like you know so um you know if people um have a big tax bill maybe they might sell some wine or you know but i mean i mean that's a bit of a joke but but you know it's um but nowadays it's i mean we look back and see who potentially has been buying a lot of wine from us over the last few years and then you can and then yeah because um a lot of people who are you know collectors of wine probably will collect a lot of a lot of wine and and decide okay well maybe you know if their tastes change or their circumstances change or they just realize that they've got far too much wine that they can ever drink then you know they're probably you know right before selling through through christie's yeah maybe they want to like sell part of the collection buy new wines after exactly yeah yeah that goes wider in diversity and yeah exactly i mean you have to monitor your cellar as well your collection You can't, you know... Wine has a finite life. So, you know, you've got to, yeah, maybe replenish it with younger vintages. And so, yeah, collectors are often sort of, you know, selling some of the older stuff and buying some of the newer vintages.
Speaker #0
So there are two things that are super interesting about China, I guess, for you. And so we can, like, do these two parts. The first one is about the Chinese clients, because I guess over the, like, past 30 years, the number of Chinese clients to Christie's and the interest to wine by Chinese must have like surged dramatically. And the other part of the question is the interest for Chinese wines. I guess that 20 years ago, it was, I won't say impossible, but I guess that Chinese wines were not even a topic for auction house. I guess it's, I don't know if it's changing yet, but maybe in like a few years, you would start to have... really expensive Chinese wines and where Chinese wines that you want to auction as well. So these are like my two interrogations. So maybe we can start by Chinese clients.
Speaker #1
I mean, I think the big catalyst for this was 2008 and when the duty on wine was reduced to zero in Hong Kong. And that led to a boom of interest in wine in the region. So certainly, I mean, yes, since then. um it's yeah been hugely important to to um yeah the wine industry in general really the fine well the fine wine industry certainly um so it yes it that was very important um and um yeah i mean obviously it's um you
Speaker #0
know hugely important to christie's maybe not only china but also asia southeast asia yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah i mean it's yeah i mean a lot of people will
Speaker #1
maybe store their wines in Hong Kong nowadays because of the, you know, the ease of getting wines into Hong Kong. And then, you know, they come to Hong Kong and enjoy, you know, drinking their wines in Hong Kong. So, yes, yeah, exactly. And then getting to your question about, you know, wines from China. Yeah, I mean, yes, they don't appear in the secondary market, really. I mean, maybe. Yeah, I think so. But them. But certainly, I mean, from the wines I've been tasting in the awards, there's certainly potential for these wines to be appearing in the secondary market, I think. Obviously, yeah, there's some, you know, famous names, you know, the Au Yun from LVMH, you know. But yeah, I mean, the quality is getting higher than ever. I've been doing this competition wins for three years now. And I think, yeah, each year the... the standard of the um the wines that we're tasting is um um being higher than ever and um obviously i can't give anything away about who's won or well i don't know actually to use one everything is done blind so but i do know that you know we've been awarding many more medals um this year than than previously so um so yeah i think the standard is higher than ever and Obviously, you know, I think it's a sort of a virtuous sort of... um circle um because you know doing something like the win awards where you're um rewarding those top winemakers in in in china um for their wine so they get recognition for what they're doing then that gets obviously fed back so you know then they will you know there'll be more sort of you know um i guess well obviously they'll be happy and emotional that inspiration for you know improving further so um So, yeah, I think, you know, yeah, who knows? Yeah, in the future, I think it could certainly be, yeah, wines from China appearing in the secondary market.
Speaker #0
And even for others, it can be a good benchmark and inspiration. You know, if you didn't get a medal, you still have the feedback from the judges.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
You can.
Speaker #1
taste your neighbors see what's going on why did they get a medal then you try to improve and yeah yeah and on and on definitely yeah exactly yeah yeah so yeah i mean we you know as judges when we're judging this competition we're you know we're writing tasting notes for all the wines so and um you know if if there are issues with certain wines then you know we quite often would you know give that feedback so i think it yeah it does get back to the producers so they they can yeah obviously taste the ones that are winning but also if if they haven't won away um you know
Speaker #0
awards then um then hopefully they're getting some feedback from from us saying you know okay well you know that so they can then improve what they're they're doing so chinese wines are not yet uh represented in auctions because so for the factors that that we've discussed but over these last 20 years did you see kind of a rotation on the type of wines that you're having in auctions
Speaker #1
I mean yes yeah definitely when I've I've First started at Christie's in 2005. I mean, Bordeaux was very dominant in the kind of, yeah, the secondary market, the fine wine auction market. And Burgundy was, you know, just a small portion of that. And then, so yeah, since, you know, 2012, then, yeah, I think, yeah, there's been a big boom in interest in Burgundy. So initially, I guess it was. red Burgundy, but now, so both, you know, red and white Burgundy has become very popular. So, so that is, I guess, a significant change. I mean, Bordeaux is still, you know, really important for, for the secondary market that Christie's, you know, we sell a lot of Bordeaux. And I mean, the quality coming out of Bordeaux is exceptional nowadays. I mean, it's, you know, the wines that's being produced there are better than ever. So, so yeah, it's still vitally important, but Burgundy is obviously taking some of that, that market share, but there's been a diversification in the market um since um since then i mean we're you know seeing wines from um you know italy appearing on a regular basis i mean the super tuscans you know they're like you know here to stay um wines from spain you know they talk wines vegas sicilia pingas that sort of thing um but um yeah and then then yeah i mean even you know yeah some you know wine Australian wines that few from Chile, I guess, and like, you know, Vignaero Chadwick, we did, we sold some wines from them last year at Christie's. So, yeah, there is certainly a bit of a diversification in the market. But I mean, you know, I guess France dominates what we're doing at Christie's. So, yeah, it's, yeah, French wines are still, I guess you're from France. Yeah, yeah. So you'll probably be happy to hear this.
Speaker #0
I'm happy about that, but I think it's also like you have this difference in the market. Like, you know, it's been a few years that we experience amazing wines from around the world. But I guess for the time it reaches the secondary market, you have like 10 to 20 years before it's on par with the rest. So like maybe those rising stars in like 10 years is going to be almost equivalent to Bordeaux or Burgundy in your volumes.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, yeah.
Speaker #0
Maybe not, but yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
There's still a lot of wines in Bordeaux and Burgundy to sell, so. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Who knows? Yeah, I mean, I think probably Bordeaux and Burgundy will still be dominating things. But I mean, obviously, yeah, you know, yeah, I think there will be a bit of diversification. But yeah, I think France is still going to be dominating, I think.
Speaker #0
And in the place where you have auctions, so you told us you have 14 different offices in the world. 40. 40, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
But we don't, I mean, those offices. don't necessarily do auctions so the auctions are in in particular locations um so for wine it's um london hong kong uh new york and los angeles um just that's where we have wine sales but i mean we have auctions in um you know in other other locations yeah those are categories yeah exactly i mean christie's is you know yeah we sell all sorts of different things from watches yeah watches cars um classic cars now handbags um art is probably, you know, obviously art is the main focus of Christie's business.
Speaker #0
Do you see different tastes depending on dislocation for wine? Like people in Los Angeles tend to buy like a lot of Burgundy and people in Hong Kong a lot of Bordeaux?
Speaker #1
A little bit. I mean, but it is a global marketplace nowadays and so I think, you know, there is maybe there are some small kind of differences, but generally the you know, what sells well in London and sells well in Hong Kong and vice versa. So, I mean, I guess maybe, yeah. So, yeah, I don't think there's much difference because we have, you know, people are buying, like if you're based in Asia, you'll probably also be buying in our sales in London, for example. So, yeah, there's a bit of a, you know, maybe there's some peculiarities such as like you know Vintage Port probably does better in London because, yeah, we've got that sort of tradition of, you know, drinking a lot of vintage port, whereas, you know, in Asia.
Speaker #0
perhaps not so but um but yeah but generally it's um yeah quite similar in the different locations yeah plus the education for example about port must be super different uh like in france we drink kind of low quality port yeah a lot of ruby port you know for dessert or or like beginning of a dinner so i'm not sure we would like bid a lot to vintage port yeah sort of yeah yeah i mean yeah like a 1931 kids in the val or something like that yeah that
Speaker #1
but it was sold well in London.
Speaker #0
I would still drink it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's one of the best ports I've ever drunk, that particular port.
Speaker #0
So you've been doing this Chinese Wine Awards for three years now.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can you tell us a bit more about, so I think you're a senior judge or co-chair? Yes,
Speaker #1
a senior judge.
Speaker #0
So senior judge. So how does that work? I guess since you're kind of a... someone who comes here often now how do you like do you introduce a bit chinese wines to some people i guess some judges are not super familiar with with chinese wines so how do you try to like i don't know tell them the stories of of chinese wines how do you well i mean part of about
Speaker #1
the awards is um we have um a great kind of educational seminars like every morning before the actual awards we have like an for the last three years we've had like a lecture about, you know, you know, particular, you know, wine regions in China or, or, um, or that sort of thing. So he's doing that. Well, one of the, yes. So we've had, you know, like great lectures from, um, you know, professor Mar and professor Lee from, you know, universities in, in, in, in mainland China who are, you know, they're experts in, in, in Chinese wine. So we've been having that expertise given to us about, um, you know, yeah. So it's a great, Great. So, actually, I mean, one of the benefits of coming to this awards is that, you know, I am actually learning a fair bit about, you know, Chinese wines that we have. And then we have masterclasses at the end of the judging day, which don't necessarily involve Chinese wines, but it's a good way of learning. I mean, yesterday we had Jasper Morris, MW, doing a masterclass on Burgundy. So, that was a real highlight. Tasted some very nice Burgundy. So, yes. But I guess going back to your question about me sort of, you know, influencing, we don't need that because we are getting that information from it as well. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to be honest, I mean, when we're judging, we're judging completely unbiased. So, you know, we're just judging the quality of the wine. You know, we're judging it as is it sort of, you know. complex is it harmonious is it balanced is it got you know you know all those elements that that some you know wine should have um so um so yeah i think you you maybe you don't really need to have that background information um if you know if you're judging wine i mean you don't really get that much information um to be honest because you don't want to be influenced by you know you've got to you know as a professional judge you've got to be impartial you've got to judge it on its merits on what you
Speaker #0
tastes in that class how does the um this type of award or this type of like um ratings uh influence uh auctions afterwards i guess uh for you on the bordeaux burgundy this is uh this is important i mean critic
Speaker #1
scores uh yes i mean i guess they are important um you know um uh so yeah i mean it does It's maybe, yeah, I think it's a...
Speaker #0
maybe less important now than it was maybe 10 years ago or, you know, 15 years ago when, you know, some of the critics were, you know, extremely sort of influential. You know, I guess, you know, Robert Parker would give a score, you know, wine a score of 100 points, then, you know, that would lead to a, you know, significant. Massive surge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, so less, I think less so now. But I mean, I think, you know, scores are, you know, people, people, you know. look at scores they have obviously confidence in in wines that are scoring highly so um so i think it does influence the the market a little bit a little bit but less so now than previously what what is the the craziest uh auction that that you did like do you have a specific memory of a day you were doing an auction and um something well i mean it probably i yeah when we sold um um i mean this was a back in 2018. And we were offering a bottle of Macallan 1926, so a bottle of whiskey from Scotland. And, I mean, it was an incredible day because it sort of smashed the world auction record, you know, going over. It sold for 1.2 million pounds for one bottle. So that was kind of pretty incredible. And I've been involved in the whole process from, you know, trying to, well, helping with the. the vendor getting, you know, getting the bottle into sale and then also trying to, you know, obviously then once we got into sale, trying to find people that were interested in buying it. And, um, um, and it was, um, yeah, amazing that we, you know, obviously, you know, that, that it was an amazing, amazing day and did extremely well. So yeah, that was a pretty amazing day. So I remember when it, yeah, when the hammer went down, you know, and, um, yeah, I mean, there was a round of applause in the auction room. Cause I mean, it was a pretty historic day, you know, smashing that. So one million pound barrier. And I mean, it was significantly more than anything that had ever sold before. So yeah, that was pretty exhilarating.
Speaker #1
I guess selling one bottle for 1.5 million euros must be crazy.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
How do you... So a question that is always present on the secondary market for every item is authentication, whether it's for a watch, bag, or I guess a bottle of wine. Yeah. And it's why I guess people tend to go to...
Speaker #0
big auction houses is that you have this like kind of stamp of quality checks how do you make sure that what you propose to the the people is uh real and and true yeah well i mean yeah yeah for wine yeah well it's yeah it's very important um you know it's it's yeah well crucial really um that um we make sure that everything that we're we're selling is is yeah authentic. So, I mean... Obviously, the expertise that we have at Christie's over many decades. But initially, it's really provenance is key. So where have these wines and spirits come from? So if we don't get that information from the vendor, then we tend to just walk away. So say, sorry, you can't give the provenance for that bottle of Romany Conti or whatever. So we need that sort of... trail of like where it's come from that it's a to um um yeah verify that you know where it's come from so yeah but um so yeah if we have any doubts obviously we just yeah we can't accept things for sale so um so yeah so people can have you know the utmost confidence in in what is being offered for sale at christie's so like a good a good point if i have wines that i want to sell to christie's is having the invoice keep the invoices exactly yeah yeah exactly okay and then we have a team
Speaker #1
So I guess you test, you evaluate the quality of the bottle, what you were doing as a junior specialist. So level of the wine, quality of the label type of thing. Do you also have like a team checking the quality of the wine in one way or another?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, if we would ask for, you know, tasting samples of, yeah, to, you know, but quite a lot of the actual kind of sellers that we go and see, you know, in situ, you know, like where it's been stored. So, I mean, recently I went you know there's a potential vendor so i went to that country had a look at the storage conditions um to make sure that i was i was you know happy with um you know how they've been stored so so yeah so that's it's you know so we often do that um you must see crazy things in there interesting interesting yeah interesting places where people are yeah i mean yeah some some great wine sellers i mean yeah some fantastic wine sellers that i've been lucky enough to to see but um but yeah a lot of our wines are you know stored in professional storage warehouses so um so that's um yeah that's romantic yeah yeah exactly yeah like a yeah a set iron secret door yeah exactly yeah yeah you've seen like james bond type of things um yes yeah yeah i mean yes similar kind of things yeah with you know like retina kind of sort of scan to open like you know yeah um the doors just um yeah and um or you know thumbprints and all that sort of stuff and and people converting all sorts of areas of their houses into into wine cellars when they when they get that collecting bug i suppose you want to yeah keep your wine in in amazing conditions and and uh yeah and yeah so some yeah interesting interesting things that i've seen yeah
Speaker #1
Can't wait to do it for myself as well. I will definitely do this James Bond type of things, retinas, fingerprint, everything. Well, thank you very much, Tim, for this interview. I want to make sure we stick to the timing that we followed. It's been super interesting to learn more about your journey, learn more about your perception of Chinese wines, like perception of Chinese wines in an auction house as well.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I'm sure we're going to see Chinese wines in like 20 years or probably.
Speaker #0
Hopefully, hopefully, it may be sooner.
Speaker #1
I have three last questions that are a bit of a tradition in this podcast. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Well, I mean, I think I would have to recommend Vintage Wine, which is the book written by Michael Broadbent, which I still use as a reference today. minutes got. like he was he tasted some like incredible wines and and was meticulous with his um um you know note-taking um so i think that would be i mean that's the book that he actually signed and and was in my inspiration for you know studying the master of wine and becoming a master of wine so i think um that that book is kind of you know even though it was published a long time ago i still use it in my in my daily job um you know referring back to you know older vintages of wine that um you know I've never tasted but obviously Michael was lucky enough to taste and getting his sort of opinion on that and so yeah so that would be my suggestion for a book it's a difficult recommendation because then you want to taste the wines actually described true
Speaker #1
I had this experience with like a winemaker in Burgundy who offered me a book by Jacques Errigo about so it was like vintages in Burgundy from 1875 to today okay and so the guy actually tasted like all the vintage and wrote a note about weather the wine by itself like all that type of things and then you read that and you're like maybe i should taste it and then you look at the price on christie's and you're like no no way i'm tasting that today but
Speaker #0
maybe in a few years do you have a recent wine that you tasted and that you you found amazing um well obviously i should say that um it was one of the the Chinese wines that I've just tasted in the judging competition. But obviously, I have, yeah, there was a great wines in there. But obviously, I have no idea what they were, because everything is judged blind. So all the bottles are completely covered up, and you don't know what it is. But I guess, I mean, I think one of the sort of wines that sticks in my memory is a Mouton Rothschild 1945, which I had on a couple occasions, and it's like an incredible wine. So I think that... that probably would be my kind of standout wine, I think. So, yeah, amazing vintage 45. And, yeah, I mean, it's incredible how it's aged. I mean, it's still, you know, like going strong. I mean, it's an amazing wine.
Speaker #1
I've never tasted a 45, but I've tasted a few. On specific occasions, it was already amazing. So I can just imagine what 45 looks like. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Goodness. I mean, I don't know who you've already interviewed, to be honest. But I mean, I know perhaps another master of wine, maybe. I mean, Jancis Robinson, have you ever interviewed her?
Speaker #1
Never interviewed. We did a lot of master of wine, but Jancis, not yet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, Jancis, I think maybe. Yeah, try and get in touch with Jancis and see if she'll... she's um yeah lovely and um yeah um she's great i mean she's yeah been in so influential in in in the wine world and um she's yeah so she's yeah a great person and and i think she's yeah she's yeah i'm obviously based in london so i guess you'll have to come to london it
Speaker #1
would be a terrible moment but if we can still meet the agencies and have nice a glass of wine it will be it will soften the and difficult moment of being in London. But we're based in Hong Kong, so it's okay. Now we have this adaptation to Double Decker and that type of thing. Yeah, well,
Speaker #0
exactly. Well, there's literally like that casino, the Londoner, just across the road from here, that's got like London buses and Downing Street and various things, so you can get a little taste of London here in Macau.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true. Thank you very much for all of this, Tim. Thank you for taking the time. If you like this interview, don't forget to like it, to share it, to subscribe to the channel, to do everything you already know. Thanks a lot, Tim, for taking this time. I wish you beautiful auctions, I guess, for the future.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, we've got two auctions happening today, actually, in London. So one starts at... 10 p.m. our time here, 2 p.m. in London, some Karazawa, so Japanese whiskey. And then at 2.30, 10.30 Macau time, it's going to be some amazing Burgundy from René Engel. So, yeah, we've got lots of amazing auctions coming up. And also in Hong Kong at the moment, we've got an online sale that runs until the 17th of March. So check out Christy's website because it's, yes, amazing kind of Bordeaux, Burgundy, some Particularly highlights some great first growths, Lafitte, and a great collection of Petrus as well being sold out of Hong Kong. So yeah, look at Christie's.com, please.
Speaker #1
We'll put the link in the description to this episode. Thanks, Tim, and see you soon.
Speaker #0
Okay, thank you very much.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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