- Speaker #0
On the Chilean side, if you want to go all the way from Santiago down to Buenos Aires, you do need to get a ferry. But that's an absolutely spectacular journey, really. I mean, and the word ferry doesn't really do it justice because you're going through fjords, you're seeing glaciers, you're seeing incredible temperate rainforests. But yeah, you obviously need a little bit more time to do it that way. Pampin in Patagonia, transport, accommodation, food, airfares, all cost more within Patagonia than they do elsewhere in Argentina and in most parts of Chile. And as soon as you get to the region, you realize why. It's just because the distances are huge. A lot of food has to be brought in. There's various other costs. You can definitely still do it on a budget. The very first time I visited, I was very much backpacking and I was doing it on a tight budget. So you can visit it. you just need a little bit more time to do it justice.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to the Winging It Travel podcast with me, James Hammond. Every Monday, I'll be joined by guests to talk about their travel stories, travel tips, backpacking advice, and so much more. Are you a backpacker, gap year student, or simply someone who loves to travel? Then this is the podcast for you, designed to inspire you to travel. There'll be stories to tell, tips to share, and experiences to inspire. Welcome to the show. Hello and welcome to this week's episode where I'm joined by Shafiq Meji, an award-winning journalist, travel writer, author, editor, broadcaster and photographer and he is back on for round two which is quite rare for the podcast and today we're going to talk about Patagonia and South America, maybe a bit of Argentina, other parts as well and see what he's up to in the coming year. Shafiq, welcome to the show, how are you doing?
- Speaker #0
I'm very well thanks, delighted to be back and talking to you again.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's a real pleasure to have you back on. I think last time we did a deep dive in Bolivia. and we thought Pat Goenia had to be next because you've been there extensively. I've got to ask the same question again. Where are you right now?
- Speaker #0
Well, yeah, just like the last time, I'm somewhat less exotic than the place that we're going to be talking about. I'm in my home in South London, which is kind of classic April day. So we've had sunshine and showers. And yeah, but it's not too bad at the moment.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, this is quite rare for me as well. I've not really done a sort of like a second interview. In the same setting, you've got the same background. I've probably got the same background. It's a bit new for me as well, so bear with me. We'll have a little catch up before we get on to Patagonia. So we spoke probably end of last year, maybe October time. What have you been up to since then?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, the time since then has flown by. It's been busy from a work point of view, lots of writing. But yeah, I've had a couple of good trips. I've been to Vienna. I was speaking at a travel event there, which was really, really good fun. And then, yeah, more recently I was in Georgia for the first time in February when I was doing a travel writing masterclass at an event called Traverse in Tbilisi. So, yeah, that was really, really good fun. Tbilisi is a really interesting city. And then after that I had a bit of a chance to explore some of the rest of the country, went up to the Spanessi region, which is the mountainous Caucasus, which was... Absolutely spectacular. Had the misfortune of travelling during one of the worst storms in years. So we got caught in a blizzard. Had rather too close for comfort encounters with avalanches. But the experience overall was wonderful. And yeah, people were very hospitable. It was a fascinating region. But yeah, I think the next time I'll go there will be in the spring rather than in the end of the winter.
- Speaker #1
Yes, that makes sense. People love Georgia, don't they? When you hear people write or talk about it. I can't find anyone who said that they don't like it. So it must be a good country to go to.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's somewhere that I heard a lot about from my colleagues and friends who've been there. Yes, I was I was eager to get out there. I mean, I was only out there for just over over a week. But yeah, very positive impression. Definitely definitely fired my imagination and desire to go and explore a little bit more. Yeah, it's really, really interesting place.
- Speaker #1
And the surrounding countries as well. Quite interesting, aren't they? I know there's a bit of Yeah, yeah.
- Speaker #0
tension there with Armenia and Azerbaijan but that whole area I think a lot of people do clubbing together because it's quite magical I think yeah absolutely and some of my colleagues on this on this on this trip did sadly I had to I had to make it back but yeah definitely I mean the the the whole of the kind of the south Caucasus region is um is is fascinating and I think under underexplored as well from a British perspective so um yeah I'm sure I'm sure we'll be seeing more of it in uh in the years to come I imagine so yeah on my notes I've got you up for an award you coming soon yeah yeah it feels like i've scanned you into uh mentioning that but uh but uh yeah no yeah no it's a i'm up for a uh travel media award and um i'm up for some inspire global media awards so you know it's it's always lovely to be uh shortlisted for these kind of kind of awards um but and actually and something else i've just been doing is i've been a judge um on the edward stanford travel book of the year 2024 um which just the the winner recently recently announced a wonderful book by a gay padul i had called a stranger in your own city so um so kind of a few awards but it was nice yeah it's very nice to be on the uh the judging panel um for this one and i read some yeah brilliant brilliant brilliant books
- Speaker #1
uh including the winners yeah i do love a book recommendation i'll give that a go uh yeah i just see on social media yeah yeah i saw you you're yeah doing the awards um i think the company neighbor on i think and then yeah obviously you're doing the book thing as well so yeah that seems like you keep busy with that when you do those book review
- Speaker #0
award for stanford do you have to like read a set amount of books in a certain amount of time yeah essentially the um there were five of us on that judging panel for this for this category and we were given the shortlist of six books but there were there were you know many more than that were were were submitted yeah for the awards and then the wonderful stanford's staff or some of the best read i think in the industry go through them and they picked out their their their six favorites and then those books came to came to us so it's kind of a mixed mixture of um kind of writers and authors and travel writing enthusiasts and then we um yeah we we read them all in you know in great detail and had really good positive interesting discussion um about them and then yeah we're left with the difficult task of picking uh picking a winner from uh yeah six excellent titles i guess they all win though right that if you make a short list of six amongst i imagine hundreds of books i
- Speaker #1
think or hundreds of books should i say i think you've done pretty well um that's a good yeah
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, awards to some extent are always a little bit arbitrary as well. I know it's a cliche and it probably doesn't make people on the short list who didn't win feel any better. But really any of the six books on the short list would have been worthy winners. But yeah, in the end, we went for a stranger in your own city, which I'd highly, highly recommend to listeners.
- Speaker #1
Awesome. Okay. That's great. We're going to talk Patagonia. Let's go straight there. Maybe tell listeners about the region of where it is and maybe what it's known for, do you think?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So, I mean, the first thing to say, Patagonia is huge. It's roughly one million square kilometres. And it's essentially it spans the southern halves of Argentina and Chile. It's a region that goes across the borders. And essentially it's one of the world's last. um surviving wildernesses and it has some of those dramatic landscapes on earth mountains the andes of course huge swathes of steppe uh glaciers it has one of the biggest ice fields uh in the world outside of the poles uh there are beautiful lakes there are temperate rainforests their fields um there are towns and cities um but they're you know they're dotted dotted around it's very sparsely populated uh i mean it's an absolutely um breathtaking place it's got a fascinating history and it's great for adventure sports and and so on and it's um you know it's it's just it's one of those places in the world that just the name of it is incredibly evocative and uh yeah and it lives up to the hype so
- Speaker #1
for tourists going i'm going to kick off with at the time of year um obviously we're going to have to flip our seasons over here based in northern hemisphere to go southern hemisphere what are some of the best moments they're going to travel to
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, you can visit Patagonia throughout the year. As you might expect, the winter can get really, really cold. Although, you know, the cliched expression that they use in Patagonia is that whenever you go, you can expect four seasons in a day. And that's definitely been my experience there. It's incredibly windy throughout the year. It's often... bit windy in the summer for example um but yeah you can yeah if you if you go if you go in the winter you can expect snow and ice and stuff but it's great for um you know winter sports there's there's there's there's great places to sneak ski and snowboard um if you go in the summer if you're interested in trekking and um those kind of those kind of things and some of the wildlife experiences that's the time to to go my recommendation on to on times to go the sweet spots to go is is you you know, you could substitute them for almost any place in the world, which is just springtime and autumn, which, you know, they just have a good combination of good weather pretty decent weather and and in the tourist spots not too many crowds or smaller crowds than the um the the summer uh peak season which is kind of you know in um roughly roughly december to to february broadly speaking so so the hot spots get very busy at that point so if you can if you can visit just just before that period or just after that period um yeah that's a really good time to go is the is over tourism a bit of a problem there
- Speaker #1
do you think in the in the summer months maybe or the the peak times like what's the feeling amongst the locals if you've experienced any about is it getting a bit too much or do they need to be some sort of control for the area maybe in both maybe both countries different obviously it's different countries but what's your feeling yeah yeah well
- Speaker #0
i i i'm glad you're glad you asked the question and um yeah i mean it's despite being an absolutely huge region and many parts of it getting very few you know virtually no tourists The popular spots and Parc National Torres del Paine on the Chilean side would be a prime example of this, do suffer from over-tourism. If we just take Torres del Paine, for example, which is one of the, if not the most popular tourist destination in Chile, an incredible place to trek, stunning mountains scenery, really good wildlife, pumas for example. But the park itself, is undoubtedly um suffering from from over tourism particularly the classic route so there's the w track and then these there's the o or the circuit track which are you know epic multi-day routes um but you know i mean i was there um a couple of years ago for lonely planet and um yeah and you can see even i was visiting just before the the peak season and already you could see you could see the impact not just in the wear and tear on the trails and the surrounding areas which obviously impacts on you know kind of the the biodiversity of the area uh but also in terms of the lodges the infrastructure and so on um so for places like that um and the the equivalent places in argentina el calafate which is the gateway to the los glacios national park for example those places i'd really recommend visiting outside of the tourist season if you possibly can um and also in in torres del paine skipping you know avoiding the the the most famous kind of iconic routes and exploring other areas of the park perhaps doing different activities you can go horse riding you can go kayaking for example and also there's incredible um places to visit just outside of the park boundaries but similarly impressive in terms of terms of um landscapes i mean i'll give one example of that which would be um an estancia which is a ranch uh named cerro guido and they're on the boundary of uh toy style pioneer um and they offer incredible they're one a really positive puma conservation project oh wow and uh and they do really responsible um small group um puma um spotting trips responsibly run they put the pumas welfare first rather than uh rather than rather than the tourist interest again getting photos and so on um and that's in projects like that and visiting other areas of the park and how you can you as a visitor can help to preserve these landscapes as well as getting out a bit further into past going because there's lots and lots to explore and you can um you can um yeah often
- Speaker #1
getting off the off the beaten track is actually more more rewarding as well yeah because i was going to ask i think we all agree with all that i think people do go to the same areas but because this place is huge is it possible to go in stay in somewhere a bit different in the park because it is so big i think where i'm going with this is the infrastructure there to go and travel there by road and is there little towns that just aren't on the map that maybe we could explore in tourist or pioneer which has incredibly developed infrastructure you definitely can um get
- Speaker #0
away from those those those main main routes um you can do lots of that independently um during the summer in winter you need to you need to go with the guide And there's also some very good local tour operators and guest houses and hotels that can help you, can help to facilitate these activities. So that's something 100% that you can do easily there. Elsewhere in Patagonia, away from those more touristy areas, you definitely can visit some of the more remote or isolated areas. It often takes a bit more time. transport is often sketchy particularly if you're trying to avoid um flying i mean really can't emphasize how much how big the distances are in these in these areas particularly if you're coming from somewhere like the uk um it's on a whole other it's on a whole other scale you definitely but but the short answer is you definitely can do it you just sometimes need to do a bit more forward forward planning okay and have you visited both sides argentina and the chilean side
- Speaker #1
And if so, what are the entry points into those sites?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so I visited both parts kind of multiple times over the years. I spent most of the experience has been on the Argentine side, but I spent a lot of time in both. And including in Te Adolfo, which is the southernmost tip of South America. It's separated from Patagonia by the Magellan Strait. Some people include it within Patagonia. Right. Some people... include it as a separate region for the interest of this discussion because it's a fantastic place i'll include it within it with it within our discussions um but yeah so so the the key entry points let's take argentina first um essentially the the biggest tourist areas in argentine patagonia are in the um the the northeast on the northeast atlantic coast and there's a town or city called puerto madryn um which is the gateway to the Peninsula Valdez Reserve, which is one of the most important marine reserves in South America. It's an incredible place for spotting, for whale watching particularly. Southern white whales go to breed there, but also seals and just south of there, penguins, orcas you can often spot there. And it's good for diving and those kinds of activities. It is also the gateway to... Welsh Patagonian. So there's a small community of, you know, partly Welsh speaking, but Welsh descendants who, you know, the community dates back 150 years ago. It's a fascinating history, which we probably don't have enough time to go into here, but it's well worth looking up. But a big, the area is known within Argentina and further afield for its Welsh teas. So people, you know, you... You go in, go inland from Puerto Madryn and you go to a village like Gaiman, which has Welsh street names. You sometimes hear Welsh on the street. There's a fascinating museum there, but it's filled with Welsh tea rooms, which do like a classic, you know, from a from a British point of view, it'd be like a, you know, like a high tea, absolutely copious, you know, copious cakes and sandwiches and pastries and that kind of stuff with tea or coffee as well. So, yeah, so that's one of the big areas that draw tourists in Argentina. The other part of it is in it's the southwest, so towards the Andes, towards the south, and there's a place called El Calafate and El Chalten, and these towns are the gateway to Park National Los Glaciales, Los Glacias National Park, and that's protects part of the South Patagonian ice field, one of the biggest ice fields outside of the poles. And you've almost certainly seen photos and videos of this because they're these giant glaciers, the Moreno Glacier being the most famous. And you can watch it from viewing platforms. You can take boat trips around it. If you have the time, I'd highly recommend taking an ice trekking trip. which means strapping on crampons and taking a guided hike across the surface of it which is an incredible experience you can indulge your inner polar explorer should you wish and then on the uh on another side of the park is um el chalten which is very close to the chilean border um and that's the the the the treffin capital of um of argentina and it takes you on you know there's wonderful self-guided or guided if you want treks into the into the park and it's absolutely you know a a beautiful place to go to go hiking again very popular during the the the the peak season you know just just december december to february so it's well worth visiting outside of it um and then the the other the the final the final part of argentine patagonia that's really popular is is the lake district which is often sometimes it's separated off into another its own region but you know it's but and baoloche um which is a chocolate box lakeside town kind of has an alpine feel um that's the main hub um for both domestic and and foreign tourism and again hiking relaxing by the lake um during the winter going skiing snowboarding that kind of stuff it's wonderful for cycling as well so those are the hot spots within argentine patagonia um chile and patagonia the landscape's quite you know it's quite different if you look at it on a map it's it's it's much more fragmented and it's slightly more difficult to travel say from north patagonia to south patagonia you you have to go by um uh by water or fly for some of them. Some of the ferry routes are absolutely spectacular. But yeah, in southern Patagonia, the main city there is Punta Arenas, which is on the Strait of Magellan. Really interesting place. And not too far away from there, in Patagonian terms, is the town of Puerto Natales. And that's the gateway to Parque Nacional Torres del Paine. So those are the key areas on either side of it. And then south of there, you've got Tierra del Fuego, which is, again, divided between Argentina and Chile. And in Argentina, you've got Ushuaia, which is on the Beagle Channel, and that's where most Antarctic cruises depart from. It's also a stunning setting. It's very near a great national park. It's got an incredibly interesting history. It used to be a penal colony, which you can really get into for that. And now it often calls itself the southernmost city on earth, which is technically not true, because if you continue south across the Beagle Channel over the border into Chile, you come to technically a city, although it's only got a couple of thousand people, called Puerto Williams. And yeah, the Chilean government relatively recently changed the designation of it from a town to a city.
- Speaker #1
I think that's it.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, and that's an absolutely spectacular place. And yeah, you're barely a thousand kilometres north of Antarctica at that point.
- Speaker #1
Wow. I think Ushuaia is definitely known, isn't it, as the hub. The Welsh part, are they speaking Spanish and Welsh? That might be a stupid question. They grow up, obviously, in Argentine and they speak Spanish, that's a given. But they're keeping their Welsh heritage. Are they actively trying to keep that as well?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, very much so. I mean, to give you a very, very short rundown of the history, I mean, it basically dates back over 150 years and about 150 settlers from Wales came over to Patagonia, founded a small colony there. And they left partly for cultural reasons to protect their culture from English ne'er-do-wells and influence. And yeah, the language, cultural traditions and cultural festivals such as the Eisteddfod, which still goes on there. um a huge parts of the the culture not everyone speaks welsh but but a significant proportion of people do um and um yeah it it it's the the culture is definitely is very much live there yeah and and and they often speak welsh and spanish but not necessarily english yeah that's fair enough okay uh i was gonna ask obviously to fly into these areas you probably have to go to the capitals right i imagine one is aries and then santiago i'm only guessing here so you can confirm
- Speaker #1
That'd be most people's main route into the area. Then I guess from there, what is the best way to get down to the area?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So, I mean, I always try and advise people to fly as little as possible from environmental reasons. But obviously, travelling by land or, in some cases, by boat takes a lot longer. But, yeah, essentially, the main towns in... both Argentina and Chile and Patagonia have airports, so you can fly. Sometimes you need to connect from Santiago and Buenos Aires, but you can get to places like Puerto Madryn, to Ushuaia, to Punta Arenas. But you can also go by public transport. You can also, you can go by, you can go by bus, by public bus. They're all connected. You know, these journeys are often long, but you can, you can make it and you can make it all the way by road from... Buenos Aires down to Ushuaia for example with a small short ferry crossing across Australia and Magellan you can do it on more of a budget because Patagonia generally is more expensive travelling in that region is more expensive than elsewhere in both Argentina and Chile the Argentine side generally tends to be a bit cheaper because Argentina is a little bit cheaper at the moment but a way of keeping costs down is travelling by bus On the Chilean side, if you want to go all the way from Santiago down to Punta Arenas, you do need to get a ferry. But that's an absolutely spectacular journey, really. I mean, and the word ferry doesn't really do it justice because you're going through fjords, you're seeing glaciers, you're seeing incredible temperate rainforests. Oh, wow. But yeah, you obviously need a little bit more time to do it that way.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I guess it's time, isn't it? I suppose is the main key here. But South American buses are great. When I was there, just chopping around the bus. Compared to Southeast Asia, for example, if people are trying to think of a comparison, much better. For like their normal class, I guess in Southeast Asia, you can pay a bit more money and get the luxury class bus. But just the normal buses in Argentina were great and Chile.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And they deserve a shout out because I know sometimes people who haven't visited the area the you know the continent before might have a different picture of it as you say from southeast asia they're often yeah not necessarily up to that standard but there's but yeah let's take argentina for example there's lots of different classes of buses and the the the fanciest of you know equivalent in comfort levels to you know business class on a plane in terms of fully reclining seats yeah but almost all of them will have um tbs yeah um almost all of them will have meal services even hot meal services including you know steaks believe it or not um oh wow uh you often you want to get like free alcohol you know like a glass of wine or or beer or something included in the the ticket price another little quirky thing is that they often have uh bingo games on uh on board as well you know some of these journeys can be really long 12 24 hours plus um so they did so you know they they do they do try and entertain you and yeah quite often if you if you if you take a few buses you'll probably have a bingo game at some point I've never won yet but um but it's but it's always been it's always been a fun diversion oh wow yeah I think my bus experience is just from Iguazu up to Salta and then across north to Chile right long
- Speaker #1
long journeys and I maybe don't remember too much because in the second bus so the first one was fine that journey but the second bus I was getting a bit of altitude problems as I was going towards northern Chile and I think I was just concentrating on not being sick I think was probably the main thing but I do remember that the saving grace was the seats comfy lots of leg room very wide because I'm quite a big chap so that was a saving grace compared to what we experienced in other countries before that but yeah I would recommend buses all the way and they're pretty safe and affordable I think compared to maybe flying because Patagonia you mentioned I was going to come to after the that
- Speaker #0
the article but i mentioned now that the expense is one of the most expensive areas in that region right i think is known as anyway yeah yeah so traveling in patagonia um transport accommodation food um airfares all all cost more within patagonia than they do elsewhere in in argentina and in most parts of chile obviously places like east or island accepted um But yeah, you know, and as soon as you get to the region, you realize why it's just because the distances are huge. Yeah. A lot of the food has to be brought in. You know, there's various other costs as well that add to it. So you can definitely still do it on a budget. You know, the very first time I visited, I was very much backpacking and I was doing it on a tight budget. So you can visit it. You just need a little bit more time. But yeah, it's important to when you're working out your budget for your. for your trip to Argentina, for example, to leave enough to do it justice. And that obviously includes any tours that you might do, national park entrance fees, and so on.
- Speaker #1
Hey, yeah, just a quick one. I just want to say there are many ways to support this podcast. You can buy me a coffee and help support the podcast with $5, or you can go to my merch store with the affiliate link with TeePublic, where there's plenty of merch available to buy, such as T-shirts, jumpers, hoodies. and also some children's clothing. Thirdly, which is free, you can also rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser, or GoodPods. Also, you can find me on social media on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and TikTok. Simply just search for Winging It Travel Podcast and you'll find me displaying all my social media content for travelling, podcasts, and other stuff. Thank you. Okay, and I want to touch on your article. It's called A Journey to the End of the World. This looked incredible because you're riding the railway to the end of the world. Now, what is this railway? I guess my question is, I guess that's expensive as well, maybe potentially. But my mind is idyllic. Like you mentioned the ferry where you go across those fjords and that stuff. I can imagine the railway just hugging a coastline or hugging these areas. It does sound pretty incredible. Maybe a bit like the one in Canada. I always imagine it's super expensive going across, going via the Rockies, right? I can imagine something like that.
- Speaker #0
Many people will know of a very famous travel book about the ends in Patagonia called the Old Patagonia Express by Paul Saru, where many years ago he travelled by train virtually all the way down the Americas. Sadly, now the train system in both Chile and Argentina is much, much curtailed. But in Argentine Tierra del Fuego, near Ushuaia, you can take a short ride on the southernmost railway. on earth, which is the trend of Indomundo, which is the end of the world train essentially. And that has really, you know, it's, it's, it's an interesting train ride. It's like a steam train and it runs from just outside Ushuaia to, um, Teodoro Fuego National Park, where it's another great place to go. Um, hiking is also great for birdwatching and that kind of thing. Um, so it's now it's very much a tourist train, but it has a fascinating history and it really kind of, if you want to get a bit of an insight into. Tierra del Fuego as a whole, and Ushuaia in particular, it's a really interesting train to ride. When the Argentine government colonized Tierra del Fuego, a brutal process that had, you know, a terrible impact on the indigenous communities that lived there. This took place at the end of the 19th, start of the 20th century. And one of the things the Argentine government did to try and cement its control over a section of it, this section of... of the region was to found a penal colony so Ushuaia is it's it became a penal colony a brutal penal colony often used for political prisoners it was known as the Siberia of the south um today the today the former prison is a museum that tells you all of this history and allows you to walk into the old cells and stuff it's a fascinating thing to um to place to visit but once the penal colony was founded the rest of the town started to grow around it and the economy started to develop and they decided that they needed a uh a train route to bring in timber from the surrounding forests and the convicts the prisoners obviously provided some free labor to get this job done so the you know the end of the world train was built by convict labor uh you know in brutal conditions often but um but some of the testimony in the makes clear a lot of the prisoners were just pleased to be out of those terrible cells.
- Speaker #1
I imagine.
- Speaker #0
Even if it was doing kind of this backbreaking labor. A few of them tried to escape, inevitably. Not sure how many made it away. But anyway, that's why this train line was built. But then eventually, around the middle of the 20th century, it fell out of use. And then it was relatively recently restored. Over the last few decades, it's been restored and turned into something of a tourist attraction. So today, it's kind of kitsch. and you use it, you know, it's not the most direct way to get from A to B, and it's pricier than, you know, other train journeys that you might take in Argentina. But it takes you through some beautiful scenery. It takes you through peat bogs and mountains up to the forests of the national park. And, yeah, and you get a bit of an insight into, you know, how present day...
- Speaker #1
teodolf wego came to be so interesting there's a lot of these railways across the world isn't there where they're kind of been built for previous times left a little bit and then brought back to life probably for tourism reasons which is great but who doesn't love a train i mean some of the train rides i think i've been on a probably bit underrated like there's the one in india right i think it's potentially the highest one in the world um i think it's by gum uh and they're darjeeling it's a bit of a toy train but the tourist train but it's amazing it weaves through the mountains right um yeah and then obviously In the same continent as Argentina, in Cusco, you can get the train back from Machu Picchu, which is obviously a purposely built tourist train, but it goes really slow. But when it weaves through the mountains, I mean, you can't beat it, can you? I know it's going to be a little bit more expensive maybe and just a tourist thing, but the way it's weaving in and out of these landscapes, I don't think you can really beat a good train ride.
- Speaker #0
Oh, no, absolutely. It's a cliche, but it's a glorious way to travel. Yeah, and it's, you know, I definitely, if you've made it that far south, you know, you've made it to the tip of the continent, you know, you're closer to Antarctica than you are to Buenos Aires at that point, you know.
- Speaker #1
That's crazy, isn't it?
- Speaker #0
You will have had a bit of expense. You may as well, you know, it's definitely spending a couple of hours riding the train at the end of the world.
- Speaker #1
Why not? And have you ever tried to go to Antarctica? Just briefly while we're in Ushuaia.
- Speaker #0
Yes. So, yeah, I went to Antarctica a few years ago before the pandemic. Yeah, so most Ushuaia today is, from a tourist point of view, really known as the main Antarctic, main port for ships to point to Antarctica. And, yeah, they sail down the Beagle Channel and across the Drake Passage, one of the most roughest. patches of water on earth and then they get down to the antarctic peninsula when i did it i was i was i was lucky and i did a slightly longer trip so i left puerto madryn which is as mentioned before the gateway to welsh patagonia and also near the this incredible um marine reserve and i sailed from there um over to the forkland islands which was a couple of days and spent some time there and then went south another couple of days to south georgia which is an absolutely remarkable place um yeah absolutely stunning landscapes hundreds of thousands of of penguins um for example as well as you know whales and um sea elephant seals and fur seals and from there uh went down to the antarctic peninsula and then finally came back at the end of the three weeks to to ashwaya so um wow yeah an awful lot of people most most people going to antarctica will depart from from ashwaya um Obviously, that's difficult to do on a budget, if not impossible to do on a budget. The only, you know, potential tip that I offer for that is that if you've got time to play with, if you're in Ushuaia, particularly towards the end of the cruise season, so kind of February time, roughly, lots of the tourist travel agencies there will advertise, you know, last minute space or last minute berths on on any of the ships that still have space so this is not cheap but it's it can you know potentially it can be a lot cheaper um so you know it can reduce your cost by thousands of dollars um you have to take your chance you have to be able to to hang around in a fire for a little bit but um but yeah it is possible and um yeah i mean antarctica i mean we can do another show on antarctica i'm sure but yeah i'm sure yeah an incredible place you
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I think you always hear the myth in the Shwire that you can jump on a cargo ship, right? Or something like that for free. But I haven't really heard many people say they've been successful at that. But I think you can't really avoid the cost of going normally. And rightly so, because obviously it's a protected area. So you're going to have to deal with the cost. And then obviously you're going to have to deal with the rough sea. So if you're struggling with seasickness, like my partner is, kind of rules it out. Unless you're going to fly over a helicopter or plane. I don't know if that's possible if you're not a scientist. And then... Yeah, I guess if you're in a schwein, you can hang around for months. Maybe you might get lucky in this cargo ship thing, but I'm not sure it's possible.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, on the rough seas, I would definitely say that, you know, I don't normally get seasick, have good sea legs, but the Drake Passage is rough. So, yeah, it's be prepared.
- Speaker #1
Okay.
- Speaker #0
I would say it is worth it, but nevertheless, it's worth being.
- Speaker #1
forward is forearmed okay great tip about the last minute deals though i know let's let's go legit here a little bit yeah that's obviously going to help you've got time right if you can hang around and get one of those last spots and take a couple of thousand dollars or pounds off because it is expensive isn't it as a as it's a cost alone it's not gonna be a backpacking trip that's for sure okay and i've got next couple of notes before we get to another area i should say we're going to talk about um before we come to the end uh we sort of talked on some like tips here for people traveling for the first time like if you're a first time in patagonia I guess independent travel is fine, but do people normally go on tours? Because obviously it's such a vast area and you might have a bit of a short time window. I guess you want to see the best bits, if you like. So I can imagine you'd be quite intimidating trying to plan a trip there.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, I'm a great evangelist for independent travel. And I would say, and I'd always encourage people to do so. I mean, if you're short on time, obviously organised tours can help. Or if you have particular... you know particular needs or whatever then then then there's lots of really good organized tours but it's it's somewhere that you you that even though it might seem intimidating on the surface it's very it's it you certainly can travel independently just with a little bit of forward planning um as i say the the public transport net you can get lots and lots of remote places on the public transport network booking organizing organizing bus tickets and things is very you know it's easy to do and relatively cost effective the same if you're flying as well and it's easy to book accommodation and stuff um and tours and things you know a lot of these places however far away they are from you know the capitals of their respective countries you know they're they're they're they're online you can still you can book them through popular online booking platforms for example although even better book book book directly but you you can you definitely can do it independently even if it's your first time a bit of spanish obviously helps but it's you know english is obviously quite widely spoken particularly in the the touristy areas um but yeah just do a bit of forward planning take into account the distances um give yourself a bit of flexibility because delays and not uncommon particularly if you're traveling during the um kind of later in the autumn and in the and in the the winter um so build some flexibility into it and don't try and do too much as well um you know it's it's there's so many places to go and see you want to try and pack it all in um but it's better just to focus on on you know if you're there for two weeks focus on like three areas and try and do them you know really really well and just result you know appreciate you're just going to have to come back and and visit the rest of it another another time um but yes you can you can definitely you can definitely do it independently the first time i visited was my first time in south america and oh wow you know my my spanish was not good at all not when it but yeah it was very you know there's and there's there's lots of good information around obviously i'm biased as a co-author of the Lonely Planet to Chile but you know there's there's there's there's information there that can help you plan your independent trip basically yeah I think this podcast does promote independent trips um I don't I don't mind tours um for certain places but uh for example I've never been so if I was to go obviously
- Speaker #1
get into one of the big cities I would Chile Argentina make my way down by bus and then figure out from there I think that's the way I would do it I'm very different obviously some people who want to have that sort of planned structure which is fine But yeah, I think the Argentinians and the Chileans, the way they've done their tourism, I think it's pretty easy to get around. I don't think it's too difficult. And also, if you've got a smartphone, you probably get a local SIM. And if you've got internet, I don't think you'd go too wrong, really, with that information. Do you have any plans to go back before we get to another area of Argentina?
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. I mean, always. I mean, I think the first time I left something of me there and, you know, it kind of it all it always draws me back. So I don't have anything fixed in the dive for this year. But, you know, despite despite visiting Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego for the best part 20 years, there's loads of places that I still want to see. And so so yeah, so hopefully I will be back there before too long.
- Speaker #1
Got it. Okay. Another place in Argentina, which admittedly was never on my radar, and I don't think it's on a lot of people's radars in Argentina, because obviously they go to the classics. You mentioned Patagonia, one of those areas, of course, as well, is Cordoba. So Cordoba, which is a different area of Argentina I don't know much about. Can you explain where it is and what it's known for? And you wrote an article about this place, but I believe you're going back.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So Cordoba is Argentina's second... second city um and it's essentially it's um it's west uh inland from buenos aires towards the andes and it's it's kind of broadly speaking in the geographic center of um of of argentina and it's kind of very close to the the um the biggest mountain range in argentina outside of the andes um and yeah cordoba is a fascinating is a beautiful city i mean it's it's it's got a a lot of history some of the architecture is stunning It's very famous for its university. It's a very old, well-established university. So it's kind of got a student, youthful feel to it. It's very politically engaged as well. And the surrounding region has always been popular with Argentine travellers. But for whatever reason, it just hasn't drawn as many, the number of foreign tourists. you know that i would say that it deserves all the other areas of the country um do so i mean so i'd say it is it's definitely underrated apart from the city itself which is really interesting there's some great restaurants it's really you know it's interesting from a cultural point of view nice places to stay um you've got the uh central sea the sierras region so the the beautiful hills which are dotted with estancia's so these cattle ranches essentially many of which um are open to to visitors and some of them offer you know some of the best horse riding you can imagine i'll give a shout out to estancia which is one of my favorite places to stay you go horse riding on these wonderful um peruvian paso horses and the the landscape it often feels to me a bit like the you know the highlands of scotland really it's kind of like moorland and that kind of stuff it's it's it's it's stunning it's stunning scenery um but then you've got lots of it's dot the area is dotted with little interesting quirky places it attracts like a lot of new age travelers for example there's a lot of uh supposed um you know psychic energy in some spots uh it's it's you know many people consider it to be a hot spot for ufo sightings for example. There's a very interesting town there called Via Generale Belgrano, which is a very Germanic town, another place with a really interesting history. And they have quite kitsch Germanic-style architecture. They have an Oktoberfest. You can go there and get a Black Forest Gatto and, you know, hearty, hearty Germanic food. if you want. It's good for wildlife, particularly bird life. They've got one of the biggest salt lakes, I think the biggest salt lake in South America nearby, recently been turned into a national park. Very good for bird life, particularly flamingos, but you see condors and so on elsewhere. The area is also dotted with these old Jesuit stanciers and churches that were founded many centuries ago during the Spanish colonisation of the region. you know and then yeah and there's lots and lots of it's a quirky place there's you can go and visit the former home of the childhood home of che guevara for example whose family took him from buenos aires there to um to help get over his asthma and the clean airs of the uh of the of the hills of portable province um so there's lots of it's an interesting place and you know it it's good for walking and um you know things like paragliding and and so on and um Yeah, so if you want to see a different side to Argentina, particularly if you haven't, if you travelled in Argentina a bit before and you haven't been to that region, yeah, it's well worth getting onto it.
- Speaker #1
And you're going back. So what's the assignment this time?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so I have an interesting trip coming up actually just next month, and that will be to, yeah, kind of to write about some of the issues that I've discussed with you, but to kind of focus on the new national park, which covers... um this um this this huge this huge um salt lake um a little sea as as it's called over there um it's a really interesting work with kind of conservation going on there um and also it's a place that you know sustainable tourism is is in its infancy um so i'm going to go and you know check it out and um yeah hopefully come back with some uh some interesting stories yeah that's awesome okay
- Speaker #1
yeah talk about argentina here like the different areas i mean it's an amazing country in it i mean it's hard to think of such a diverse place um that's that big from north to south east to west it really is as a whole if you spent like i don't know what the tourist uh visa length is whether there's 90 days or 180 days whatever it is you could spend all of that time just touching the surface can't you it's incredible yeah absolutely i mean i i lived in um buenos aires for the best part of a year
- Speaker #0
And I've traveled around Argentina for pleasure and I've traveled there for guidebooks, countless travel articles over the years. And I still feel like I scratched the surface because there's so much there's so much to see. Yeah, it's an absolutely it's a huge place. I mean, I know I keep emphasizing that, but it really the scale of it, particularly from a British point of view, is is staggering. And yeah, but that's also it's really rewarding in that sense, too, because you can always get away from the crowds. And.
- Speaker #1
you know see something you uh you hadn't expected and one of those areas must be a nice place to be in right i probably think it's another episode i imagine that's just a place to live and chill out and drink some coffee and maybe do some partying whatever i can imagine that'd be a bit of an awesome place to be for for a while yeah
- Speaker #0
i mean it's it's it's a great city it's got very much its own vibe it's got lots and lots of character if you just want to sit on the you know in a cafe and drink coffee and read a book if you want to go partying if you want to yeah do all manner of things um it's yeah it's really really interesting city and it's i loved it from my first visit um 20 years ago it was it was great living there um yeah for as i say for the best part of the year and i'm so excited to be going going back next month as well the uh the first time i would have been there since before the pandemic so um yeah excited to see some friends and also to see you know it's a very dynamic place um and argentina was going through a turbulent period at the moment i think that's that's probably putting it mildly with this with this new um new government so yes i'm interested to see um to see it on lots of levels
- Speaker #1
God, you can't answer my next question really. Was it going to be... So you've not been there since the World Cup win. So I'd be intrigued to see what the fever is like there. It's a huge thing for them. Obviously Messi scored all those goals and the final was one of the best, which was like, I would say, one of the best highs that country could get because they love their football. And then you've got this juxtaposition where you're now going to find out they've got this president coming in who seems a bit nuts. So it's going to be interesting, the vibe of how that kind of balances out a little bit.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's cliche to say it, but I mean, football is such a huge, it's a central part of, you know, in South America as a whole, but I'd say particularly in someone like Argentina and Brazil, of course. And yeah, I mean, you know, you just had to see the footage of, you know, PorteƱos, people from Buenos Aires celebrating the World Cup win, you know, in the centre, I mean, for days and days. Yeah, it was a huge, huge. thing you really can't um if you think if you think it would be a big deal um england winning the world cup yeah you need you need to get to um to argentina to see the to see the impact more recent political history is turbulent you know there's a lot of um protests at the moment it's um you know it's a very right-wing government at the moment and the president is um pretty nutty i think to borrow your borrow your words for it you say my word yeah it's a fractious time um but yeah so i'm going to be going to be interested to um yeah to see what's happening but whatever's going on when you're in buenos aires it still grabs you and some neighborhoods transport you back in time some are hyper modern in some places you just share the same rhythm i think and uh buenos aires is certainly that for me yeah
- Speaker #1
i don't think you really know the real problems if you don't live there i mean as a you're gonna you might hear about them you might chat to some of your friends in the cafe and but then you leave i guess two three four weeks later and that's it right but people who live there they're the ones protesting so it shouldn't affect the tourism i'd imagine imagine if you're in patagonia you're well away from anywhere i can imagine it just feels like a place in itself and just to get away and not
- Speaker #0
even think about that sort of stuff i should say i mean obviously it's a turbulent time within the domestic politics but that's it's it's certainly not a reason for tourists to be oh yeah or or not not to visit and uh yeah i mean In Patagonia, you're a long way away from the French Isles, a long, long way away. So, you know, you can never escape the politics, of course, completely. But it's not something, you know, seeing protests aside and, you know, there have been strikes and stuff recently. Beyond that, it's not something to be concerned about and to put you off traveling. It's just important context or useful context or interesting context for you.
- Speaker #1
you to you to have and particularly if you want to have a bit more of an insight into you know what argentina is like and what it's like today and what's what the future might hold okay i'm gonna do uh one minute just a quick fire argentina questions i'm making these up as i go there's such a big country not too hardcore it's travel question time we'll kick off with what's your favorite argentinian dish or snack steak would be the easy the easy and obvious option or empanadas but i'd say
- Speaker #0
Ice cream. Really, the ice cream in Argentina is fantastic. There's an ice cream parlor on almost every street in Buenos Aires, and it's excellent. So I'd go for that. Passion fruit ice cream or dulce de leche ice cream.
- Speaker #1
OK. And maybe one or two places that you haven't been to. If you can go tomorrow and it's like no rules, you can go anywhere in Argentina. Where are you going to go?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, interesting. I would go to the northeast. So kind of near Iguazu, up towards the Paraguayan border. That's somewhere that I've only kind of skimmed through.
- Speaker #1
in the past um but i would i would really like to go they look like some fantastic national parks there are some really interesting towns it's a weird border you can just literally walk through to paraguay there's no border crossing it's a bit weird um i don't know if that's legal or not don't know i did that i bought some sunglasses but i don't know if that's uh technically traveling different country um what about like a drink do you have a favorite argentine drink could be alcoholic or non-alcoholic yeah i mean
- Speaker #0
Obviously, the wine is excellent. The Marbeck is excellent. I mean, you know, on a summer day, a glass of Torontes or one of the white wine grapes there is excellent. So, yeah, that's what I'd go for.
- Speaker #1
Okay. And maybe outside of Buenos Aires, three cities that people must visit.
- Speaker #0
Ah, okay. Well, I mean, definitely Salta, which I know you visited. Oh, yeah. Absolutely glorious city in the northwest of the country. Definitely Cordoba. as well really interesting place and um yeah i mean bushwire which is um yeah if you can get down there um yeah you'll have a fantastic time
- Speaker #1
Okay, that'll be my questions for Argentina. Where can people find you? Just remind people, I know people probably listened to you before on the podcast, but maybe tell listeners where they can find you.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find online. So if you just search my name, you can find my website, ShafikMeggie.com, and on all the social media platforms you can think of, I'm at ShafikMeggie. So yeah, if you go to my website, you can see all my latest articles and books and podcast appearances and what I'm up to.
- Speaker #1
oh i'll whack those links in the show notes um my final question for the podcast is what's coming up for 2024 obviously you've got quarter coming up um is there anything you can say to be leisure or for work and that's coming up for the year yeah so i mean on on on the for the quarter but trip um i'll also be going to buenos aires and i'll also be going to um
- Speaker #0
across the river plate into uruguay um because i'll be writing a piece on montevideo ah that's a country that fascinates me never been on my list just seems a quite unique country amongst the whole big ones in there that people talk about yeah i mean it's it's i mean i've been quite a few times um it's so easy to get to from berners-iris it's just an hour or so across the river the river plate um yeah and montevideo is kind of almost like a small version of of of buenos aires um but yeah really really interesting very culturally rich football of course is a huge huge thing um but yeah it's really it's and again an underrated place it doesn't get as many foreign visitors or certainly like european visitors as as it should so um hopefully my article will help to put that right okay and anywhere else in the world or europe those are the those are the only two um two confirmed trips okay at this point yeah so i've kind of got a few irons in the fire for later in later in the year but those those the only two ones confirmed but yeah definitely a holiday in europe at some point later in the year um as well and yeah hopefully traveling by train as well to touch on something we talked oh yeah okay talked on before because um yeah it's um obviously as soon as you get the euro star over over to to to france or belgium then the you know the continent starts to open up and um yeah trying to reduce reduce the amount of flying that i'm doing and there's wonderful train routes and you know there's there's loads of great new sleeper train routes they're opening up across europe as well so um so
- Speaker #1
trying to take advantage of of those trips will be um yeah definitely on my agenda yeah i think i was doing my youtube video um series for our inter-air trip last year and i think that's great traveling by train i know we talked about this already but uh the way you can just jump on a train and they're normally quite reliable in europe apart from the uk it's a different story but um once you get into europe and let's say you're into our past one month and you can sort them to make your way east so many options like it has to be one of the best ways to travel Europe, if not the best.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, funny enough, I'm currently reading the book, a new travel book that follows the route broadly of the Orient Express but uses interrail passes to get there and back to London. And it's an interesting book, and it's certainly one that's kind of, you know, firing up my desire to visit lots of these places. And as you say, it's a wonderful way to travel around Europe. yeah the interrail pass is one of the you know the great travel yeah you know developments i'd say you know over the last um you know 50 years or so not just is it better from an environmental point of view um it's just yeah it's a more enjoyable way to travel yeah and if you just finish on this train travel it's not a train travel episode a bit
- Speaker #1
loving here for the trains but if you go like east uh to asia we're in this like different world of train travel where so europe got like very good trains and you've got this like super natural 500 kilometer an hour trains that go through japan or china right it's a completely different way so i'm thinking oh i just want to go china obviously travel the country it's huge want to see that some of the culture and just travel by train i just want to see what is that like for like two or three weeks yeah
- Speaker #0
absolutely i mean and it's in in lots of parts of asia i mean lots of my own experience in it is in india and obviously trains are you know the the way to travel yeah round round round india but yeah i mean I haven't done that in China. I would love to do that in China. I've done that a bit in Japan.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, Japan. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
the trains are on another level. And yeah, I mean, it seems like in lots of parts of China, that's the case too. So yeah, I hope you make it out there soon.
- Speaker #1
Well, yeah, we'll see, won't we? Yeah. Okay. Shafiq, thanks for coming on to the podcast. Another great chat. I think we'll probably get a third one in, I imagine, late this year, early next year. Let's see what comes up for that one. I think there's loads to talk about, but I appreciate you coming back on to make time. And... Talk about an amazing part of the world, which is Patagonia.
- Speaker #0
Oh, well, my absolute pleasure. Thanks for inviting me back, James. Always a pleasure to chat to you. And yeah, I look forward to the hat trick later in the year.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, cheers, dude. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the podcast episode today. If you've been inspired by today's chat and want to book some travel, if you head to the show notes, you'll see some affiliate links below, which helps support this podcast. You'll find Skyscanner to book your flight. You'll find Booking.com to book that accommodation. Want to stay in a super cool hostel? You'll see Hostelworld down there too. you'll find Revolut to get your travel card sorted, click the GigSky link to get your eSIM ready for your trip and more importantly you'll find Safety Wing Insurance to get that travel insurance for your trip. There are many more to check out so when you click that link and book your product a small commission goes towards me and the Wiganet Travel Podcast. Thank you in advance and enjoy your travels.
