- Speaker #0
Welcome to Your Path to Success with Ruth Kearns-Volman. This is a podcast where people share stories of how they've navigated their personal path to success to inspire, encourage and equip you on your own journey. Today's guest, Fadzi Whande, is Chief of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the UN Refugees Agency in Geneva, and you are in for a treat with today's conversation. In this interview, she talks about how her vocation in inclusion and belonging found her, and then how she took responsibility for her life and her story after a significant setback, the breakup of her marriage. As a single mother of two young boys, Fadzi went back to university aged 40 and chose to keep moving forward, to do it afraid, to cultivate a teachable spirit and to live by example. Today, she's encouraging and inspiring many, many people, including me, to create inclusive spaces and open up to learning from each other, whatever our background. Enjoy the interview. So today I'm with Fadzi Whande, who is currently Chief of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the UN Refugees Agency. Fadzi, welcome.
- Speaker #1
Thank you very much for having me. I'm really looking forward to our discussion.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's great. I mean, we met here in the Geneva region, but I know that here people often ask you where you're from. How do you reply when people ask you that question?
- Speaker #1
It's really funny. I was having a conversation with some high school students recently around, you know, that particular question because, you know, as a third culture kid who was born in Zimbabwe, but grew up in the States and then moved to Australia, which is what I consider home. And now I live in Geneva. When I'm asked that, I'm always trying to figure out, is it because of my ethnic background or is it the place that I feel most comfortable at? And I think for me, wherever I am presently is where I feel a sense of home. But I do strongly. connect with my Zimbabwean culture and my Australian. So I refer to myself as an Afro-Aussie.
- Speaker #0
An Afro-Aussie, wonderful. And is this the first time you've actually lived in Europe, or did you live in London before?
- Speaker #1
No, I lived in London. I lived in London in the early 2000s, actually. For about two years, I was there. That was my first time living in Europe. I had visited London before, but I stayed there for two years. And at that time, I thought the weather, I couldn't manage. It was just so cold. And I think, you know, coming from Australia where it's hot, like nine out of the 12 months of the year, and then flipping it to Europe where it's cold, nine out of the 12, it was just too much for me. So I tried, I persevered for about two years. And then after that, I was like, I can't do this.
- Speaker #0
You probably had quite a few other Aussies to commiserate with though.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it was, it was really cold.
- Speaker #0
So I had the joy of hearing you speak at the Business Professional Women's Network. And, you know, you were talking about inclusion and belonging. And I think you said that your vocation found you. What did you mean by that?
- Speaker #1
When I think about diversity, equity and inclusion, it's not a career choice. It's not like you go to school and you are, I mean, maybe now because it's become very mainstream. But certainly when I was growing up, it was never a career vocation. In fact, when I started, I didn't even know what a diversity consultant did. I had to Google. I got a job as a diversity consultant, but I had no idea what that was. But I feel like the job found me because every experience I've had, every country I've lived, being able to share my story, like I said, you know, being born in one country but living in another, and then the experiences of engaging with so many different people. I felt like the opportunities to really enhance diversity and inclusion just always presented themselves. I was always asked to speak at different events or, you know, share my experience about what it's like, you know, living across continents. And so that's why I feel like, you know, the vocation found me because I wasn't really intentional about getting into this space. But through opportunities or requests or people reaching out to me, I found myself here. So that's why I always like to say I didn't choose this job, but this job chose me.
- Speaker #0
So can you say a little bit more about how your personal experience informed your perspective on diversity and inclusion?
- Speaker #1
When I was in the States, because my parents moved there when I was very, very young, we were the only Black family that lived in the suburb, where me and my brother were the only Black kids in our elementary school. And if I'm being honest, I can't remember ever feeling too different in terms of, you know, people treating us differently or being prejudiced or discriminating against us. But it was always like, you know, going home and hearing your parents talk about home. I always kind of felt like maybe this wasn't really home for us because my parents would always talk about home. And I was so excited about the opportunity of moving back there that when we did, I don't know what I thought. It was sort of like this magical kind of experience. But when we got back, when we moved back to Zimbabwe, people started calling me an Oreo. they called me a coconut. They said I was black on the outside, but white on the inside. They said that I wasn't quite black enough because I couldn't speak Shona, the local language, but then I wasn't white. So that's when I first started encountering issues around identity and what that means. Because for me, growing up, I'd always heard about being home. So when I got home, I don't know what I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting for people to tell me that I didn't quite fit in. And so I think that's when I started appreciating or having a desire of wanting just to belong somewhere. And I think when I left Zimbabwe, when I started working, you know, my company took me to Botswana. So I went through another experience of being, you know, someone from the outside. And then I moved to London and then to Australia. So. I feel like all these experiences of living in different countries, trying to understand the local culture, trying to understand just the nuances of being there, those experiences have really made me so passionate about this because I know what it's like to be an outsider. I know what it's like to feel like, where do I really fit in? You know, not conforming. to the social norms that might be presented. And so I think that's what really drove me to be so passionate about this, because I just didn't want people to experience this sense of either rejection or feeling like they didn't quite belong. And so I just made it my personal mission to make sure that any conversation I have, or even in my work, I'd be very conscious and intentional about creating just a sense of belonging with those that I engage with.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And I know that when you came to the BPW and we were talking about it together, you talked about this idea of getting beyond what you see on the surface to understand what's going on underneath. I haven't lived on four continents, but I certainly have had this sense of trying to understand what I'm supposed to do. to fit in. How do you think about creating, you know, what you said of belonging for people when they may or may not know what they're supposed to do? You know, how do you do that?
- Speaker #1
I think what you're referring to is the example I gave of an iceberg, and I called it like a diversity iceberg, because the notion of an iceberg is, you know, 10% of an iceberg is visible, and 90% of an iceberg is underneath the water, right? And so if we think about ourselves, we also only engage with 10%. When you see somebody walking into a room, or wherever you are, that what you're seeing is only 10% of who they really are. There's so much of the personality, the character, their values, their opinions that are underneath the surface. And until you have a conversation with them, you actually won't really engage with the person. You'll only be able to make assumptions based on how they visibly look. And I think that was what I was getting at. And that explanation of, you know, we need to take more time to really... get to know people because when you know people, you know, so I can walk in a room and the diversity, the 10% of the diversity iceberg could be she's female and she's black and that's it. But, you know, when you then hear my story, I can tell you I was born in Zimbabwe. I'm a mother of, you know, two boys and et cetera. And some of those experiences, which can only happen when we engage. And I feel like our world, we have stopped. The curiosity that we had before in terms of really trying to understand people, trying to engage with people is lost. And I think we need to bring a lot of that back because there's something about, you know, somebody being attentive, somebody being very intentional about getting to know you that actually makes you feel safe, makes you feel like you are heard. And I think this is what we need more of. And you know a lot of the times we talk about not having enough time but I feel like when it comes to human relationships and engagement that should be a priority for us to make time because it doesn't take a lot it's not like you're expecting people to spend five hours or six hours of a day having a conversation but sometimes even seeing somebody within even a work environment that you've never spoken to and just asking them, you know, how was your weekend? What did you get up to today? You know, just something that's even beyond the normal, you know, wave here and there, because I think as human beings, we really value interaction and we value that human connection because everyone wants to feel a sense of belonging.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's come back to your story a bit. You talked a bit about your motto being "do it afraid". And I'm just curious whether there are any times where you've had to kind of live that motto or any other obstacles or challenges that you've met along the way on your journey.
- Speaker #1
Look, I think my biggest challenge that impacted me was the breakup of my marriage and finding myself in a situation where I was a single mom. I was raising two boys and I didn't feel at that stage I had, you know, I had a job, but it wasn't a job where I thought I can look after two boys. put them through schooling, etc. And so I realized then that I had to go back to school. And so I went to university the year that I turned 40. That was my first time in a university. And the motive for me was just get a degree so you can get a better paying job. It was literally that. It wasn't, I wish I could say that I had these dreams of doing this and doing that, but it was really around that. But one of the things that I started doing was I was really interested in, you know, social issues. And so the university that I went to had a certificate, a graduate certificate in social impact, which I started, which I was part of. And, you know, that was part of an MBA program. So I finished that and then I was able to do the MBA program. But that was one of the hardest periods for me because I was in Australia. And so. the family, the extended family wasn't there. I had to go through that journey. I felt like I was alone. I felt like, how do I navigate this? How do I bring up, you know, without the support? And of course, it impacts on you personally, it impacts on you professionally. But one of the things and why I bring it up is because, you know, it really taught me how to pivot. It taught me that, you know what, life will always give you lemons, as they say, and how do you make lemonade? And for me, it was like, just keep moving forward. Because I realized that I had, you know, two kids who were sort of looking up to me for guidance. And it was very hard. And, you know, as a woman of faith as well, I think my faith really played a key role in that. But one of the decisions that I made was that I was going to make mistakes, but I had to keep moving forward, try and move forward, even if it's a little step. just keep moving forward. And moving forward at that stage for me, Ruth, was just waking up. I was just willing myself to wake up and go through the day, not, you know, wanting to throw the towel in, not, it was just that. And as the days grew and, you know, the steps became a little bit bigger. And so I think for me, that personal experience of navigating that, at that time, it was still fairly early on in terms of my journey being in Australia. It was still quite early. but I realized that I think sometimes when there's that determination to just move forward and to understand that life is going to throw you things and the expectation of that is just to tell yourself that we can't predict the things that will happen these life experiences that happen whether it's losing somebody whether it's losing your job and I went through all of those experiences fairly close to each other. And I honestly thought, I don't know how I'm going to move forward from here. But it also allowed me to tune in to what was happening around me. And I started engaging with different people and realizing that everyone faces something sometimes, but it's just the will of moving forward. And I think that has guided me in my work and in everything I do now is this whole notion of. you know, doing it afraid. I was so scared. I was scared to go to university at 40 because I was like, I'm going to be a grandmother in this class, you know, but this is what I mean by doing it afraid is like, sometimes you need to start something. And of course those fears are there, but. we shouldn't allow our feelings to guide us because feelings change. You know, one day you feel happy, one day you feel sad. And so I had to learn that, that I shouldn't allow myself to be guided by my feelings because they're changing. But it's just that intent. And I've seen that play out for me in my work, that resolve of just moving forward. It's like just a reminder for me to keep moving forward, even if it's a little step. even if it's like less than one centimeter, it's still kind of moving forward and not placing an expectation on myself to be anything other than, you know, what I am and being present in that moment.
- Speaker #0
So it sounds like it was an incredibly tough experience and it was really for you about focusing on what's next right thing to do. What were the values and the principles that guided you particularly during that phase?
- Speaker #1
One of the things that I live by as well is this notion of having a teachable, I call it a teachable spirit, a teachable heart. And what that means for me is understanding that you can learn from anything and anyone. Because oftentimes we think that, well, I used to think that the people that had something valuable to teach me were these amazing people. So if it's a CEO of a company, I'm going to really pay attention. And if it's just my local mail person, or it's like, oh. But then I started realizing in that situation that you can learn life lessons from anyone. So I think that was the one thing I realized. And that probably is this whole start of the inclusion and diversity is putting value on every single person who's there. That was one of the things that helped me. And also the understanding that, you know, a lot of these people that I admire, it's not like they're superhuman. and they are time travelers and have gotten to five years, like they don't know what 2030 looks like before I do. Like if we're in the same time zone, we're literally waking up at the same time, literally. And so for me, I was like, what is it that makes people like this that we look up to? What is it that makes them special considering that they're not seeing anything before we do? We were all sort of like on this journey. And for me, I think. it was like, well, you know what, they keep moving forward. And at that time, I started realizing that the people that I was attracted to in that situation were people who had experienced some kind of setback and challenge, but then they were able to move forward. And so that's when I realized that, you know what, these life experiences happen to all of us, but it's how we handle them that makes us, you know, move forward. And the other thing was... I knew that my sons were going to learn more from watching me than from the things that I was saying. So another motive for me was also living by example and reminding myself that everything that I was doing, my actions, there's somebody who's watching. And as a black woman who has been in a lot of spaces where I've been the only one or where I have others come to me and tell me the power of representation, those things. are always heavy on my mind in terms of understanding the role that I play by creating those spaces. So I really do try and live by example. I live in a way where I'm saying, you know, if people are to see this or to start imitating this, is this something that I would be proud of? And that's just something that I put on myself, but it's really guided me. And like I said, some people... do yoga some people meditate we all have different things that we do to help us in the situation for me it just happens to be faith that plays such a huge role and guides me both professionally and personally.
- Speaker #0
I would love you to just point a little bit to what you discovered about yourself during this this time about who you are and who you want to become. Because you're talking about what you do, but I'm just interested in how you started to forge who you are and who you're becoming out of this setback.
- Speaker #1
I spent a lot of time not understanding how insecure I was. Insecure because of the experiences I had gone through made me feel like I was insecure. My experiences, so although I mentioned earlier on that when I was in the States, I can't remember periods of discrimination, those periods did start to come, particularly in a work environment, particularly, you know, like I'm saying, when I was in spaces where I'm either the only Black person or the only woman or, you know, so you start to experience that. And so I had a lot of those kind of experiences. And that led to me feeling really, really insecure and feeling this burden of, you know, how am I going to go forward? And I think when my relationship broke down, I was, people always felt sorry for me. And I feel like I took on this victim mentality for so many years. And I realized that whenever I would share my story, people wanted to know, they wanted to know who the characters were, not myself, but it was always like, well, you know, who's your ex-husband or who's this person or who did this? And for a while, I couldn't understand why when I'm telling my story, people were more interested in other players and not myself. And I think that what happened is... I was like... that's because I'm telling my story from the perspective of pain and I'm focusing on the pain. I'm focusing on what has happened to me. And so people are interested in the person that I've perceived to have done me wrong. But I wanted my story to come out. And then I realized in order for my story to come out, I had to speak about me and that even there's nothing wrong in saying that you've learned something. Even though something tragic has happened to you, you can learn something. Going back to what I was saying about that teachable spirit and teachable heart, what has this experience taught me? And I realized that for the first time in my life, I was able to make decisions based on what I wanted to do. That although I had been living as somebody's wife, as the mother of, you know, two boys and... all of these titles as a daughter, as a sister, I was like, well, but who is Fadzi? You know, what does Fadzi want? Because before all of those titles, there has to be me. And so it was such a dark period that I'd forgotten a lot of that. And I remember even writing to some of my high school friends, one in particular, and I asked her, what was I like in high school? Like, what are some of the dreams? That's how... how far I felt I had fallen that I couldn't even remember, but that journey of self-discovery. really is where the strength came in, in terms of learning more about myself, learning that the insecurities that I had about myself, the feelings of self-doubt, that lack of confidence were all the reasons why I had gotten myself into the situations that I had. And also realizing that everybody faces something, but it's how, again, you get up. And so I learned that I'm not perfect. I learned that, yes, there were some awful things that happened to me, but I could learn from that. And I also learned that I am only responsible for my story and my perspective. And when I started sharing now my story, because it wasn't from an element of pain, it was more of, yes, I've gone through this, but this is what I've learned. People were now more interested in, oh. How did you do that? And so that's when I realized, ah, now people are interested in my story because I'm not telling it from the perspective of these are the things that have happened to me. But I'm now saying, you know, these are the things that have happened for me. So this is what has happened. And this is how I'm pivoting. This is how I'm using it for my advantage. So I think that was one of the key learnings for me is learning to speak for myself, not to speak for others. to forgive myself for the things and the expectations I placed, but also not placing expectations on anybody else to make you happy. Putting all my eggs in one basket, because I always used to think that if only I met that person, if I could meet Ruth, Ruth is the one who'd unlock the next step for me. You know, in my mind, that's what I was thinking. Like everybody else was responsible for my future. was responsible for my progress. So it would be like, well, if I can meet that CEO, I can convince them of hiring me and then I'll have my job. So it was always about, you know, everybody else. And then I had to learn, no, no, no, they're responsible for themselves. I'm responsible for me. If I don't meet that CEO, if Ruth never speaks to me, I'm still going to have to wake up and go for it. And so this is, you know, taking off those expectations on other people. to sort of like make you happy or be responsible for your life and taking on that. And so for me, it was, okay, be present. I'm in this situation, whether I'm unemployed, whether I'm this, what can I learn? What can I do in this time so that I'm also growing and stuff? And I think those are some of the lessons and some of the things. It was really hard. It wasn't an overnight thing. But it's certainly something that I feel like now in any situation I'm in, it might be painful, it might be this, but I've learned to be like, okay, take a step back. What can you learn in this? What can you be doing while you're waiting for another job? What can you be doing while you're looking for another job? What can you be doing while you're not even working or in between, et cetera? And so I think that's an important lesson for me.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting because there's so much that you've said, you know, you've talked about, I think the whole element of, which we'll come back to in a moment, of how we define success or what we should be doing and how that shapes how we see ourselves. The whole element of when you're going through a painful process, you do start out in the place as having to process that, having to process. the feelings of being a victim before you can then step back and ask yourself what you've learned so that that can be a lonely place because as you say people are not necessarily able to be with you in that space but then being able to step back and learn from it but also discover more who you are like even the fact that you ask the question well what was I like in high school what were my dreams I've met a lot of people going through difficulty, challenges, whatever they might be, who just lost the ability to dream because, you know, you're literally going through, as you said, putting one foot in front of the other. As you said, we all experience tough things in our lives. And we realize that afterwards, those things have shaped us and can shape us for good as well. If we are able to recognize that we can learn, recognize that we can move forward and recognize the role, what role you said, you know, who was I in the story, the role we want to play in the story. Am I the victim? Am I the hero? Is someone else the hero? And you know, what role do I want to play in my life to go forward? So I think there's a lot there that you've shared, which is, I mean, I don't even know how to summarize. Maybe we could go to that question of, you know, how would you define success for yourself now compared to how you would have defined that? you know, 25 years ago or 20 years ago?
- Speaker #1
I think 25 years ago, success for me was having a good job. It was based on material things, you know, or that the visible stuff that I thought, you know, where am I living? What job am I doing? All the things that come and go. Whereas now, for me, success is the fact that, oh my goodness, you know. Every time I've experienced a setback, I got up. So success for me is about moving forward. And it's also about the lives that you touch and inspire through people appreciating you and really wanting to spend time with you and feel that you have something of value to say. Success for me now is seeing my children just flourish, is seeing requests like this come in. where I'm actually able to have a podcast with you, because it means that there's something in what I have done in my life that is seen as worthy enough, you know, to even have a conversation. And so I think for me, success now is more about other people than it was about myself. 25 years ago, it was very selfishly on what is it I have, whereas now it's more about what have I given, you know. which lives have I impacted? So I think that's the difference for me right now in terms of that. Yeah. And I think if I...
- Speaker #0
I could tell my younger self anything. It would be this notion that you're not staying there. You just keep moving forward. You know, it's almost like life is like a journey. You pass through and there's some places that you pass through that seem dark and miserable, but you just keep going forward. Just like the seasons, you know, we experience seasons, spring and winter. And of course, there's some winters. where you can't even think it will ever end. But the reality is after winter, spring comes. So I think I would tell my younger self, spring is coming. You know, spring is coming.
- Speaker #1
So what are your hopes for the future? Just as we come to a close of our conversation, what are your hopes for the future?
- Speaker #0
Honestly, I hope that I can work myself out of a job because as much as I love diversity, equity and inclusion, I feel like it's not even a job. I live and breathe it. But I hope that in the future, people like me won't be needed because it's so commonplace. The way that we treat each other, like there's no need to have somebody who's guiding and who's talking about. creating inclusive spaces or belonging. And so my hope is that we won't need people like me. We won't have jobs for people like me because it will be unnecessary to have that. It will be so commonplace that inclusion becomes a personal responsibility and it becomes just part of everyday life that we don't even have to focus on it. That's really my hope for the future.
- Speaker #1
And that's a wonderful hope to have. and I want to just thank you so much for sharing your story. the good parts and the tough parts. I am really glad that someone like you with all your experiences and is working in this space does give me hope for the future.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, I want to say thank you for this podcast and, you know, even for creating space for these kinds of conversations, because this is so important. And I'm sure, you know, before you started. You might have also had, oh, should I, should I? But I'm so glad that you did, because you're providing a platform for people not just to share their story, but it's also about, you know, learning and inspiring each other as we move forward. And as somebody who's a female leader in this space, I just wanted to also acknowledge that and say, I too appreciate you, Ruth. So thank you. And thank you so much for having me. It's been great. And, you know, there's... some things that are going off in my head as we've been talking and that I'm thinking, oh, you know, how am I going to hold myself accountable as well? Continue to.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, I mean, my brain has been going in all sorts of directions, but we're going to go out for another coffee. Thank you. Wow. When I listened back to this conversation, I was struck by how packed with wisdom Fadzi's story is. I love the fact that she consciously chose principles to live by as she pivoted following the breakup of her marriage. Doing it afraid, keeping moving forward, cultivating a teachable spirit and living by example. But I particularly want to underline the power of the final thing she talked about. That's the perspective shift she made from being a passive victim in the story of her life to choosing to take responsibility for herself, her story and the role she wants to play not only in her life but in the lives of others and the impact she wants to have. Fadzi's first step to making this shift was becoming more consciously aware that she actually was in an unhelpful perspective or mindset. I wonder, are you aware of what your current perspective on your life is and how that perspective is playing out? If this resonates, then take a bit of time to reflect on that. And if you feel it would be helpful to debrief, reach out to me via my website for a conversation. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode, then don't forget to share it with someone who might find it helpful and to click on subscribe to ensure that you don't miss future episodes. And until next time, keep moving forward and remember that while you cannot control what happens to you, you can learn from everything and everyone you meet. Thank you.
