Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Welcome to Ask Dr. Change. I'm Dr. Linda Ackerman-Anderson. I'm happy to have you join me today to explore how to seriously uplevel your leadership and consulting to transformational changes, all through conscious change leadership. Welcome. Today's episode is a very special edition of Ask Dr. Change. I have the honor of speaking with Dr. Richard McKnight. Rick is a psychologist, a writer, a coach, an artist, and a very, very prolific understanding of social change. Rick is the author of the recently published book called When We the People Lead, The Leaders Will Follow. I read this book and it profoundly inspired me to reach out to Rick to say, please come talk to us. The similarities between you What Rick is talking in terms of social change so desperately needed in society today and organization transformation, the distinctions and the reach over the bridge between the two is profound. So I thought a lot of what Rick is talking about in the book and out in the public has great relevance to how we view transformation in organizations. So, Rick, I want to ask you. if you'd introduce yourself a little bit more. You have a long history in organization development, large systems change, coaching leaders. Tell us a little bit more about you and how you got to do this work.

• Speaker #1

  Sure. Thank you, Linda. Thank you so much for inviting me. In terms of my past as a professional in the field that you're a part of and still very active in and a leader in, I got a PhD in organizational psychology back in the day, and I began, as a lot of people who have degrees like that do, with smaller projects like team building. I did a lot of leadership development and so forth. And over the years, as you get better at it and you accumulate some gray hair and a network and some way in, The projects got bigger and had more significance, and I worked at higher levels in the organization. So I pretty much stopped doing organization development work when the pandemic hit because it was very difficult. I couldn't figure out how to do it. Plus, I was ready to do something else anyway. Wasn't sure what that is. Now I know what that is. And we'll talk about that. But that's my bit of my background. And I'm sure we'll touch on this. But I wrote a book on strategy implementation, which has enormous overlap with the work you and Dean are doing and have done. And I'll draw on that a little bit to make some connections between what I'm doing now and the field of. organization development and organizational transformation.

• Speaker #0

  I wanted to ask you, let's go there. So given your history in OD, what do you see the distinctions are between the social change work you're so deeply involved in now and organization transformation? What bridges do you see?

• Speaker #1

  Between the two? Well, there are a few, and I think they're significant. But you The work is substantially different. I mean, we're talking about when we do organization development, when we do organizational transformation, of course, what we're trying to do is change a system, a human system. It's also, because it's a human system, it's an economic system, and it's also a moral system. And all those things have to be taken into account. When we're talking about... an entire country. We're, of course, talking about differences in scale, but we're also talking about differences in the clout we have. So it's been very humbling to endeavor to try to play a role in, let's say, the improvement of our country as an individual. when you are doing OD Or organizational transformation, of course, you have a client. You have entree. Usually that person has a lot of power. As I mentioned, as my career progressed, I was working more and more with CEOs and heads of nonprofits and in university settings, heads of medical schools, deans, and so forth. In this case, you don't have that. But here's the parallel. So I mentioned that I wrote a book on strategy implementation, and the core of that book has decided parallels with this project. The core of that book says that if you're going to implement a strategy, you've got to do four jobs. I call them the four jobs of strategy implementation. And the first one is you have to get people to understand the strategy. So strategy is typically, not always, but typically developed at the top by a small group, usually they're males. They go off to some kind of a retreat often, and I've led a lot of those retreats, and the strategy gets developed. But then they come back, and the people that need to execute that strategy have no concept of that strategy. So there's an educational component. But that's job one, and that turns out to be the easiest of the four jobs. The second job being, if the first is understanding, it's a cognitive job. The second is emotional. You have to get people to want to execute the strategy. So there is a parallel in both of those things, right? So if you're going to be... play a part in the turnaround of a company or certainly in the play role in the turnaround of a country, you have to bring some understanding to it. And you have to have some, at least, a rudimentary strategy about how you're going to go about doing that. That's made easier if, as an individual, you become part of a group. whether that's Indivisible or More in Common or Braver Angels or any of these groups that are emerging to address what's going wrong in our country. But you have to understand it, and probably your understanding follows your emotional connection to the issue. In an organizational setting, it's sort of reverse. Typically, people engage with a strategy or a change objective by first using their minds to get around it. What's the rationale? What happens if we don't execute the strategy and so forth? But without some kind of an emotional connection, like I'm a part of this, I'm a part of a group, it doesn't go very far. Just to complete the four jobs. So those are the first two jobs. The third job of strategy implementation is that work has to change to align unit level by unit level. And if that doesn't happen, you don't make progress. And often what happens in organizational development or organizational transformation projects is that It's uneven. So you might have the manufacturing part of the organization or the service delivery part making great strides, but logistics is lagging way behind.

• Speaker #0

  Right.

• Speaker #1

  Or something else.

• Speaker #0

  Right.

• Speaker #1

  The fourth job, just to complete that story.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  yeah. It's something you can't do as a citizen. And you can't even do it as a consultant, but you can get others to do it. And that is to get the systems aligned in the organization that support the strategy.

• Speaker #0

  Right, right. So for me, what jumps out is, you know, one is building the strategy and gaining understanding. So there's communication. There's also engagement. So a critical bridge in everything you're talking about is how do we engage? And so engagement builds understanding. It also... builds the emotional investment that you're talking about in strategy number two. And then how do you get those people to understand the relevance and meaning to themselves? And they're part of the organization that needs to undergo the transformation. So engagement and then getting people to initiate because they care. So that's a critical piece that I see that's important in our strategy when we're transforming organizations. and clearly in your strategy for looking at transforming basically what's happening in society so that we are protecting our democracy. Tell us a little bit more about your purpose for writing the book, the polarization that you see in America today, and how you became motivated to actually put the book out into the world at this really critical time.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, okay, good. So almost precisely, well, no, a year ago this past March, I was invited to a potluck supper. I can't tell you the last time I went to a potluck supper, but it was Debbie and I were invited to a neighbor's house. She had gathered maybe 20, 25 people to have a discussion about how they feel as Americans these days. And it was a lovely gathering, lots of people in a very small living room. And we were invited to go around and say how we felt about being Americans. And it just so happens that I was the very last person. So I heard words like worried, concerned, angry, upset, furious, things of that nature. Always the change agent. I thought... This is really glum. I'm going to say something that's true to myself and might possibly make a difference here in this gathering. So it got to me, and I looked at everybody. I paused. I looked everyone in the eye, and I said, how I feel is absolutely determined. No one. is going to take my country from me. Well, that made an impression.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  But then I'm driving home, and I'm saying, well, that was cute. But what does that mean, mister? And I didn't know for a while, but I really took the question to myself, of myself, very seriously. And I thought, I don't know what I can do, but I'm going to find out the answer to that, and I'm going to do it. Well, I realized that what I do and can probably do in my sleep is write. And if I could write about a story that was compelling enough to get people to feel more hopeful, to take more action. on behalf of a neighborhood or a community or our country, I would feel like I made a difference. So that's what got me started. Now, you mentioned the word polarization.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I also, in this time of wondering how I was going to make a difference myself, I encountered a study. It's called the Hidden Tribes Study. It was conducted first in 2018, and it's been updated every few months since. It's a very reputable study that was looking at polarization in our country. What's causing it? Who exactly is polarized? What's so upsetting to them? They learned some things they didn't expect to learn. What they learned is that most Americans The number they used was 67% of Americans are not polarized. And when we believe that we're all at one another's throats, some bad things happen with respect to democracy. And the most predominant and corrosive part of that is disengagement. And they also discovered... that there is polarization, but it's between the left wing and the right wing. And all of this is amplified by social media.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, absolutely. You know, I'm aware, thinking in organizational terms about polarization and disengagement. I wonder how many leaders and consultants actually investigate the underlying causes, the underlying dynamics that have people show up against what's happening, that have people disengage because they have no hope about their future or the organization's future. And so, again, the investigation into that in this study is remarkable so that we can truly understand the internal dynamics, the mindsets, the beliefs that are causing people to have their emotional states. So that's a very important aspect of the early process of transformation.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, yes. And in this case, when we're talking about our country, the leaders... quote unquote, are every bit is caught up in the system that doesn't work as the most selfish oligarch. And so it becomes very confusing. And what happens is that our sense of agency gets hijacked. That's why I titled the book the way I did. Well, first of all, it's a historical statement that's true. And secondly, I'm trying to say, don't depend on anyone to save you. That is not going to happen.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Which adds to, if you go there, the hopelessness, as opposed to the agency that you discovered in yourself to be able to write about what can I do? What can we do? And so the whole notion of light many fires, you talk about that in the book. Tell us a little bit more about that.

• Speaker #1

  Well, the last chapter is called Light Many Fires. And you'll relate to this, Linda, because you'll recognize the name. I stole that phrase from, do you remember Herb Shepard?

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Back in the day. One of the forefathers of our change field. Absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  One of the, he's now passed, but he was one of the pioneers who started our field. Herb Shepard wrote a paper. He was a fabulous writer. And he was writing to change agents. And he began to notice that change agents. often get very burned out. And so he wrote this paper, which you can find online, called Rules of Thumb for Change Agents. The first one was stay alive. Don't die for a cause you wish to be, or something like that. Stay alive. And one of them was light. many fires. Don't expect that one single intervention is going to make all the difference. It won't. So I stole that. I love that phrase. And what I'm saying in the last chapter of that book is using the metaphor of a fire, light a candle, light a torch. If you can, light a bonfire. But the point of that. And the point of the whole book is, if you want to feel better about yourself as a citizen of this country, you want to feel you have more agency, do something. And plenty of people do things. I'm not trying to imply that no one's doing anything. But I'm saying join with others on behalf of a cause that you really are concerned about.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. You know, in the book, you talk about so many people are caught up in the whirlwind of what's going on. And so you use that the whirlwind image to help communicate a variety of dynamics and nuances that are going on. Tell us about the whirlwind and its impact.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. Well, the whirlwind is a metaphor, of course, to... that I drew upon to help me understand. The reason why I wrote the book, partly, is because I want to understand why do I feel so upset? You know, on a daily basis, you can get upset with this politician or something Trump has said or whatever. But what is going on from the standpoint, you know, of systems theory? Well, so the whirlwind was my way of understanding that. And they are. If you can imagine a sea over which a whirlwind is happening, maybe it's a tornado, I don't know, it's not a meteorological concept, but the sea is social media. The whirlwind is made up of three distinct problems that are occurring in our country, each of which contribute to a fourth. Those three problems are political extremism. So there's a chapter in the book called Tyranny of the Minority. A minority of Americans have hijacked our government. And by that, I mean, I'm referring to right-wing politics takes a lot of forms. But one of the forms it takes is Christian nationalism. That people don't understand, and they, I believe, need to, because that is the enemy of democracy. So that's one of the forces, political extremism. Another one is oligarchy, the economic system. You know, I've been criticized for using that term, but I don't back off of that term. Because I think what we have is a situation in which a very small number of Americans possess most of the wealth. And that is not getting better. It's getting worse. Right. So oligarchy is a big problem. But I think... The biggest problem, and this is exactly why I wrote the book, is civic decline. That term means that we are more isolated as a people. We live lives in front of our screens. We don't know our neighbors like we once did. I mentioned a potluck dinner, and I said that I can't remember the last time I went to one. That's a problem, potentially, in a society when people are not engaged with one another. We're backed out of socializing with one another, and we're back. And all of that leads to disengagement in politics. And all those, I mentioned three problems in a sea of social media, right? they all cause a... another problem that I call spiritual despair.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we see it everywhere. And I know some of the stories you tell in the book and even listening to the commentary from the potluck that you went to, is people are feeling despair and hopeless. And in the case of How do we get people to be motivated? you know, motivation and organizational change work is a critical piece. How do you reach in to make what's changing meaningful and relevant so that people have some degree of agency, so, or a place for their energy to go? So the spiritual despair, as much as some people may not relate to the term, they feel it. It names what's really going on, really going on. I wanted to also ask you, you described three personalities, personas that are totally relevant to how people are relating to the dynamics of the whirlwind. Would you share about that?

• Speaker #1

  Yes. And so, you know, the old cliche about a pygmy standing on the shoulders of a giant. One of those giants is a guy by the name of John Alexander. John wrote a book called Citizens. In the book, I talk about the stories that governments tell the governed. And this pertains to organization development as well, because even though you It's a rare CEO who will say, let me tell you what story I'm going to tell my people about who they are in this company or in this university or whatever it might be. They do, by their actions and by things they say. In the case of a government, governments tell one of three stories. You are a subject is one story. Your job is to obey and shut up. Go along. Don't cause trouble or else.

• Speaker #0

  The king analogy, the king and their subjects.

• Speaker #1

  Hence, no kings rallies, right?

• Speaker #0

  Right.

• Speaker #1

  Not sure the people that organized those know anything about John Alexander and his book, Citizens, where I got this. But the second story is the story that... To me, we are living now. Your job is a consumer. Leave government to us. We'll take care of you. You pay your taxes. We'll fix your roads. We'll make sure Social Security stays in place. Just buy things. Consume. Look after yourself and all will be well. That's the consumer model. or a consumer story.

• Speaker #0

  Orientation is then to self and my world and not looking, not taking the blinders off to look out at what's going on and what are the factors or forces influencing me in my world. And so I, as much as I can survive in my world and even thrive in my world, it's still contained in a self-orientation there.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, yes. And People write about this, talk about the, we have created an I culture. We used to be a we culture.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And that goes to the third story that governments tell, which the framers of our constitution did tell us, which is your role is to be a citizen. Your role is to be a co-creator of our government. Now, that's a story that most CEOs don't tell their people, but they should. We are in this together. We may not totally benefit economically in equal ways, but we are definitely in this together. Let's proceed on the basis of partnership. We don't hear that too much in organizations.

• Speaker #0

  It's so interesting. It's the foundation for... Widescale engagement in organization transformation that enables partnership, that enables contribution, that helps the workers of the organization, managers at all, supervisors at all level, feel some sense of ownership and belonging. And so to me, those are benefits that come out of I hold myself as a citizen. I'm a part of this and I do have some influence.

• Speaker #1

  Yes.

• Speaker #0

  Very powerful to make the shift.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So imagine a country in which people have turned over everything to the elected leaders, to the business leaders, to the owners of the social media platforms and all that said, well, you guys take care of it. We end up where we are.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And. Now people are, because we're so out of the habits of citizenship, a number of things happen. None of them are good. One is that we don't congregate anymore. We don't give service like we used to. Volunteerism is way off, especially among the young. Thank you. We used to be members of religious organizations that had a service component. We were members of Rotary and Lions and all these things. All these things sound like things you encounter in an archaeological dig. But we have to reinvent. ourselves and include things like this. So if you were, I looked this up, I was never a member of Rotary, but I looked it up just out of curiosity while writing the book. What happens at a Rotary meeting? Well, every single meeting, they still exist. You recite a statement of commitment to your country.

• Speaker #0

  Well, that has a power that reinforces the citizen role. If we're not hearing those messages, we fall into a state of complacency and passivity.

• Speaker #1

  And I would say cynicism, which is another topic that you cover pretty thoroughly in the book. So why don't people own their citizenship? Why don't people? want to initiate and participate and exercise their agency because they feel, why bother? What can I do? They're cynical. Tell us more about that dynamic.

• Speaker #0

  Well, the way I'm using the word cynicism is really in three ways. One is, and this is the worst part of it, but it... It's happening in our country. It's very lamentable, but it's happening in our country. It's to regard other people as untrustworthy. It's suspicious. And these numbers are growing. It's very disturbing to me because I have offspring, let's say, one's 31, one's 34. And part of the reason why I wrote this book is because I want them to understand the world they're emerging into. Well, it's a world that no longer is going to trust like we once did. So it's a distrust of individuals, but it's also a distrust of institutions. And these numbers are off the chart. Neither of those is the worst part of cynicism. The worst part of cynicism is believing that even I can do nothing to change any of this. Any action is futile. So I interviewed a lot of young people for this book because I was hopefully writing and I'm going to have them as readers. Every single one of them expressed cynicism about our country. No agency. And that's a problem. So what I'm trying to do in this book is to say, look, there's reason for hope. And it's you. It's your joining with others and doing something to make a difference in some way to something that matters to you. You don't have to save the whole world. Save the neighborhood. Fix a pothole. Join the gardening club.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And in organizational terms, you know, what can any individual, any group, any department do to transform itself, to show up differently, to act or model in the likes of the future, the desired state? So all of that, in essence, begins to create what we call critical mass, so that there is more or less a groundswell. But it typically starts, like you say, with tiny fires, with candles, not bonfires, typically starts with candles. And so, you know, so many people, and I was touched by the book in this way. It's like, I'm one person, what can I do? I have this vehicle, this podcast to share with others as a voice, it's part of my contribution. But what can any individual do. That, you know, they need to understand how do I reach out into my world, into my community and organizationally? What can I, we do collectively, a small, you know, team of people, then a larger department and a larger portion of the organization, the whole organization? It builds, but only if people turn towards making a difference in a direction that they believe in. I think that's just a. critical part of the whole strategy. So you're talking about meeting places, gatherings, getting together with others, overcoming loneliness, you know, initiating conversations with others beyond protests and protests are a gathering place. But yes, you know, there's that as well. What more do you want people to embrace around this strategy?

• Speaker #0

  Well, one message I take pains to point out in the book is, I don't say this in the book, but... As I was writing the book, a very good friend of mine who is Jewish introduced me to a term, Tikkun Olam. It's Hebrew. It means repair the world. And I think that's just the loveliest idea is that each of us have a responsibility to make our world, our world. not the world, our world, a little better. And he took pain to the very wise person. He said to me, he raised his finger just like this. I said, repair the world, but you don't have to repair the whole world. And you don't have to do it by yourself. In fact, you shouldn't even try to do it by yourself. And that made an impact on my writing. I thought those words were some of the wisest words I'd heard in a long time.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. You know, it's interesting. So I'm familiar with the term tikkun, and my interpretation of it has always been purpose. What did I come into this world to do, to accomplish, to contribute? What is my purpose? And so if you look at the other side of spiritual despair. It's spiritual clarity. What is my tikkun? What is my purpose? What am I here to do differently? As opposed to the apathy of a day at a time, da-da-da-da-da-da-da, you know, without thinking, is any of this making a difference to my world? So I love the use of that as a way to help people to identify what gives them energy, what gives them meaning. What gives them agency? And then when you're talking about people getting together so that they can share that and support each other and work together, the world changes. The world changes.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, and it begins with you. I mean, your world is going to change.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  We hear so much about loneliness, and the solution to loneliness, On one level, it's very simple. Join with others. Be with others. And so in the book, I talk about a term that sounds technical, but it's really a simple idea. And that term is social capital. What is social capital? Social capital is what we have. when we create cooperative, trusting relationships with others. And where there is social capital, there is agency and mental health. And when you look, there's a chart in the book that's like inverted U. It starts in 1880. In 1880, when the Industrial Revolution really got going, we were an agrarian society. Most Americans lived and worked on farms. Well, along comes the Industrial Revolution and all its mechanized and steam-driven farming equipment. Those workers weren't needed anymore. Simultaneously, Factories are starting. Oh, we don't have to hand loom textiles anymore. We can have gigantic machines. So there was this great migration of people to the cities and so forth. Social capital went way down, way, way down. Then we as Americans, and this is one of the themes in the book, is that Well, by title, when we the people lead, the leaders will follow. So there was tremendous exploitation of workers and all these people moving off the farm. Social capital is declining right and left. That changed. And so the inverted, well, not an inverted, yeah, inverted U. So up comes social capital. in this country, up and up and up through two world wars, through the Great Depression? Where did it peak out? It peaked out in the 1960s. So when John F. Kennedy was saying, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. When he said those words, that was at the very peak of social capital. It's done nothing but decline ever since. And we have to rebuild that as a nation. you How is that going to happen? Well, it can happen one neighborhood at a time. That's my view. And I'm not speaking alone. A lot of people have believed that. I didn't make up that idea.

• Speaker #1

  I think about the nostalgia that comes with the 1950s about, you know, the, yes, there were a lot of social constraints and conditions then, but. People were together, they were with each other. And now, you know, how far away are your neighbors? Our neighbors are a half mile away. You know, it's just, it's very different in terms of people living in different environments. One of the other factors that shows up for me in people gathering is how people embrace gathering with people who are different than them. And so you also talk in the book about the importance of pluralism. Tell us more about that and your view of that and the importance of that to transforming and protecting democracy.

• Speaker #0

  Pluralism sounds like a very fancy philosophical idea. And on one level, I suppose it is, but at one level, it's very simple. Pluralism is central to our Constitution. It's the idea that every person has power. Every citizen has power. Not only that, but every citizen has inherent worth. And that the government may not violate that dignity and that worth by imposing a religion. and may not stifle your speech, may not disallow you from expressing your political opinions. Your difference was seen by the framers as essential to preventing authoritarianism. If we ever build a system, and they wrote voluminously on this, if we ever build a system in which One way of thinking, one religion, one national ethnic background is considered to be the best or only one that we should allow. We are dead as a system of self-government. So pluralism stands opposed to all these ideas.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. The whole push against diversity that's happening. happening now currently. You know, diversity is directly linked to there are many differences, and we are all of value in our own unique way. And how can we actually embrace the value that others who are different from us bring to what the larger picture, the larger outcome of what we're attempting to do? And so it's a challenging force right now to embrace pluralism. Now, One avenue into that is everyone has a vote.

• Speaker #0

  Yes.

• Speaker #1

  No matter who you are, you have a vote. But where that begins to break down is whoever you vote into power breaks their promises, doesn't do what they promise, doesn't do the things that they asked you to vote for them for. And so we have a lot of breakdown happening, which is, you know. creating the distrust and the finger pointing and the blaming and, you know, and watching things dismantle, which, so what I'm describing, I can feel it inside myself, adds to my cynicism and hopelessness and my outrage. And so what suggestion do you have for helping people turn around to say, as an ordinary person, what can I do? How do you go about igniting agency?

• Speaker #0

  Well, you won't be surprised to hear that since this book came out, I've been talking to a lot of groups about it. And that is the question that comes up most often. What can I do? So I realize when the question comes up, I've done something good, but I haven't done something else that needs to be done. And maybe I can't do it by myself. Well, really, I can't do it by myself. But one thing that I know I've accomplished when I hear that question is that I've raised concern. to a level where it can't be ignored anymore.

• Speaker #1

  Yes.

• Speaker #0

  And that I am pleased to hear. I'm not pleased to hear that I have no idea what to do. I'm not pleased to hear what they sometimes infer from the question. I have no power. I can't. The problems are so big. I'm so small. I can't do anything.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So I've answered that question in a lot of different ways, sometimes very specifically by giving examples of what people have done. Lately, I'm giving a very philosophical, one might say it's a spiritual answer, which is believe your heart. What does that mean? That means that the question... It implies a state of mind, a state of heart. What is that? When you raise the question, what can I do? How do you feel? What is the feeling state that goes along with your question? Is it anger? Is it cynicism? Those may be... There may be something more beneath those things. Both of those are defensive postures, I think. I encourage people to go to the deeper level. When you ask that question, what can I do? How are you feeling, really? And what I'm finding most of the time, when I work with groups and I ask that question in a respectful way, inevitably somebody's going to say, you know what I'm feeling is grief. I feel grief at the loss of things that are precious to me. My freedom, my, maybe I'm not losing, maybe I haven't lost my freedom, but I'm fearing that I might. Something has died and that's something. I need to understand that something that I cherish. And once you get in touch with that, and it might be for you, the rule of law. For one person, it might be that. For another person, it might be we've lost our sense of neighborliness. Whatever comes up for you, there are groups that would love to have you be a part of them. And it might be the local gardening club. It might be Democracy Docket or the Southern Poverty Law Center or something else or Indivisible or the Republican Party. I don't know. What does your heart tell you to do? I read, somebody said to me, you know how I came up with an answer to that question? I ask myself, what do I want when, at some moment in the history, in history, when my relatives read about what happened during our time, one of them is going to say, what did so-and-so do to respond to these threats, to these problems, to these needs? And I found my answer in that. And I thought that was as good an answer as any, right? It's a fabulous answer. What can I do? Well, what do you care most about with respect to your freedom, with respect to your neighborhood, with respect to your community?

• Speaker #1

  Right. Rick, I have to say that reading your book woke that question up in me. And so, you know, my invitation to you to be on the podcast, to be able to share your message, and hopefully people will actually get the book and read it and be as inspired by it as I was. and am. And so, you know, this is a, I'm lighting a fire here. I also purchased many copies of the book and gave them to a couple of our local activists to be able to hand out to especially the younger people so that we can ignite their energy, but also those of us, many of us with gray hair who are very concerned about what's going on now. And so sharing the book. And certainly in our trainings that Dean and I do, it's all about personal awareness, personal meaning, personal purpose, personal value in the context of organization transformation. And so I feel in many ways personally that I'm doing those things. And there's always a part of me that says, is that enough? Is that enough? You know, what more could I be doing? And so I'm activated. And I thank you for that. And I'm hoping that our listeners can be activated to ask the questions that you're asking is what can you do? Who else can you be with? So to generate a greater sense of belonging and value, shared value. So I personally want to say just an incredible thank you for the investment that you've made at this chapter of your life. by the writing of this book. I wanted to leave us with you sharing any other thoughts, other stories, other declarations, challenges to our audience in terms of getting more involved and engaging more in their transformation. What would you like to share?

• Speaker #0

  In the book. Anyway, I'm feeling a little emotional. In the book, I talk about a number of heroes. One of them is 15 years old. Her name is Sarah. So I'm at church one day, and I'm talking to her mother. And up comes Sarah. And as a good mother will do, her mother, Amy, began bragging about her. She said, Sarah makes the most beautiful cakes. Can I show you some pictures? Which she did. And she said, Sarah gives these cakes to kids in homeless shelters. The next day, I got to thinking, you know, I'm also an artist. I've been painting pictures of desserts and selling them at a restaurant. I wonder if there's something we can do here. So I reached out to her mother, and I said, Sarah, you know, makes these beautiful cakes, and she's been doing it. She was doing it for four years. She started when she was 10. I said, maybe we have a show at the church and Sarah sells some cakes. Or I didn't know what it was. Off they went. So we had a beautiful reception. We sold 30 paintings. We raised a lot of money for a homeless shelter. Sarah is a hero.

• Speaker #1

  Beautiful. Beautiful. That's beautiful. And to you as well, painting desserts, painting cakes, and then contributing that, you know, both of you. Cooking up some great value for society, certainly for that homeless shelter.

• Speaker #0

  You can do it through cakes. If you like to bake, there's an idea. Light many fires.

• Speaker #1

  So to me, that's the message is what fires can people light? You know, how can you put your own agency to work to create value in the lives of others and to share collectively, you know, as a way of demonstrating your commitment to our life, our democracy. So other parting thoughts from you?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I was just going to say, I don't know if you do show notes or things like that, but I'll send you a link. One of the local TV stations heard about this project. Sarah and I and our mom were cooked up and they made a little video. I can share that with you and your listeners.

• Speaker #1

  Great.

• Speaker #0

  See that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So beyond that, Rick, again. the challenge to our audience who are all transformers? What's one takeaway you want them to have?

• Speaker #0

  Take care of yourself, really. Because two things, take care of yourself, stay resilient, manage your stress, manage your well-being. You know, back to Herb Shepard, stay alive is a rule for change agents. Take care of yourself so that you could take care of others. Okay, let's put it that way. And be creative. But you're going to be better off, all of us are better off, as we connect with other people. So I'd leave him with those two ideas.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. And, you know, to me, that is so powerful is connecting with others, reaching out to others, being with others, not for self-serving purposes, but for shared purpose. To me, that touched me deeply in your writing. So again, thank you so much for the book, for your message, for your seeing. of what's happening in our world today and giving us all not just hope, but challenge and agency. So I deeply appreciate you and your work. Thank you, Rick. So for those of you who would like to follow Rick and receive more of his messages and understand his work, please go to his website, www.lightmanyfires.org. And at the top of the website, you'll also find his blog, which I'm finding incredibly valuable and meaningful, each of his submissions. So I encourage you not just through the book, but also through lightmanyfires.org, Rick's website. I hope you will partake and enjoy. Thanks for spending some time with me today. I hope you gain some valuable insights for your work. Please send me your questions and challenges by going to AskDrChange.com.