The Joy and Wonder of Being a Regenerative Farmer [Naomi Oakley & Gunnar Thelin] | Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Description

In this episode of Deep Seed, regenerative farmers Naomi Oakley and Gunnar Thelin explore what modern agriculture could become if we stopped treating nature as a machine and started listening to living systems again.

This is not another conversation about agricultural policy, carbon markets, subsidies or food system bureaucracy.

It is a deeply human conversation about regenerative farming, biodiversity, grazing animals, soil health, ecosystem restoration, community, belonging… and joy.

For Naomi, farming is the privilege of waking up every morning to work alongside animals, landscapes and local communities she deeply loves. For Gunnar, regenerative agriculture is rooted in a profound feeling of connection to place: the understanding that the land does not belong to us — we belong to the land.

Together, they discuss how regenerative grazing systems can restore ecosystems, improve water cycles, increase biodiversity, rebuild soil health and strengthen climate resilience, while also giving farmers back something many have lost: meaning, dignity and hope.

This episode explores:
• regenerative agriculture and holistic grazing
• biodiversity and ecosystem restoration
• soil regeneration and water retention
• rewilding vs regenerative farming
• how cows and grazing animals shape landscapes
• why observation matters more than rigid agricultural recipes
• farmer mental health, purpose and community
• the role of farmers in solving climate and ecological crises
• why many young people are rediscovering farming and land stewardship

At the heart of the conversation is a powerful idea: farmers are not simply producers trapped inside industrial systems. They are observers, experimenters and caretakers of living ecosystems.

Naomi and Gunnar speak honestly about how modern agriculture often disconnects farmers from nature, from their communities and even from themselves. Against that, they offer another path: one rooted in curiosity, humility, ecological intelligence and relationship with the living world.

It is hopeful without being naïve.

A conversation about farming, yes — but also about how humans might find their way back to meaning, resilience and connection in an increasingly fractured world.

🌿 SOIL CAPITAL This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital - a company accelerating the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve soil health www.soilcapital.com

👨🏼‍🌾 EARA The conversation was recorded during a gathering organised by the European Alliance for Regenerative Agriculture (EARA), a growing network of farmers from across Europe working to regenerate soils, ecosystems, rural communities and food systems.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
the primal thing that drives me in my farming system and that's joy that the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer i get the chills what are you talking about farming like that welcome
Speaker #1
back to the deep seed and thank you so much for tuning in today we have a wonderful wonderful conversation between two regenerative farmers so naomi from the uk and Gunnar from Sweden. Absolutely love this conversation because they are both so passionate and so in love with their job and their lifestyle and the way they're farming in harmony with nature and with animals. We spent a lot of time talking about how much better regenerative agriculture is from a technical perspective, ecological perspective and even economical, right? And these are all super important. But I feel like we're not talking enough about how much more... Nourishing for the soul regenerative farming is. And that's huge, right? Because we know that a majority of farmers are going to be retiring in the next 10 years. And we need millions and millions of young people coming to farming. But the problem is that young people, myself included, are not interested in the old conventional extractive model of agriculture. We're not interested in spending our days destroying ecosystems, spraying chemicals to kill life. And all of that, right? So we need a version, a vision for agriculture that is exciting for young people, that is fun, that is desirable. And I really think that regenerative agriculture offers just that. I love this conversation because it's filled with joy and with hope. And God knows we need a little dose of joy and hope right now. This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. I'm your host, Raphael. And this is the Deep Seat Podcast.
Speaker #0
So, let's talk about joy.
Speaker #2
Yeah, go ahead Naomi.
Speaker #0
So, the things that I've taken away from the last two days here in Brussels is that we've talked about lots of systemic issues and the need for funding and the need for verification and all sorts of things. Well, what we've not talked about is the primal thing that drives me in my farming system. And that's joy, the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer after a life of working off the farm as an ecologist. And just how incredible it is to have the time and the space to interact with my animals and my landscape and then sell my products to people. And just how incredible that is.
Speaker #2
as a process and what a luxury and i wondered if you could tell me about what that's like for you that resonates to me a lot i get the chills when you talk about farming like that i'm a bit envious too because i i don't don't do it full time i i would love to but still you know i spend a lot of time uh teaching and and and consulting and which is also extremely rewarding because you can see the lights appearing in people's eyes. Well, it's not that I bring them a gospel. It's more like I help them to open the rise for what they really have in front of them in their very own place, so they can get the same sense of joy that you're talking about. Because I have to say, that's what drives me too. Whenever I'm feeling a little bit, you know, not so comfortable, stressed out, the very best thing is to go to my cows and hang out with them for a while because they just ooze out well-being. What's the opposite to being stressed?
Speaker #0
Being chilled, I suppose. I find it really interesting. It's soothing. Very soothing. Very, very good for your soul. I find it really interesting that if I go to work with my cows, and I'm stressed, and I'm holding tension, they won't have it. They don't want to interact with me. They don't want me there, because I'm not... in a positive space this is true they'll give you the eye yeah they give you the side eye come back come back when you calm down come back when you've sorted your stuff out and then i'll be ready and that different and realizing that if you're like that and that you have that impact on animals you must have that impact on people as well yeah and to realize that you are they they're just mirror bring back your behavior yeah and and it's it's so humbling to be put in your place by a cow oh yes it's a beautiful thing and and i think that i look at the the richness that they give me it's much more than being a farmer in a place um i i think that um at christmas time i live in a small village and out of the people in our village you Maybe half of them have bought meat from us that was for their Christmas meal.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker #0
And that just, it gives me such a sense of rootedness within my community that somebody chooses for probably one of the most important celebratory meals for their year that they want something from my farm.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's great.
Speaker #0
How many times do you have to be reassured that you have a place and a position in your community? And I think so many farmers feel disconnected from their place and from their community and they don't feel valued. And that must be terrible.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Absolutely terrible.
Speaker #2
A lot of this has to do with a sense of coherence and a sense of belonging. Where I live, it's the place where I grew up. I was two years old when my... My parents bought the farm and we moved there. I don't remember anything before that. And I lived away from when I was about 20. I lived away for 30 years. I never felt at home anywhere else. And then a few years ago, five years ago, I moved back. And I feel that now I own land there. That land doesn't belong to me, I belong to the land. And it's a very strong feeling, it's a very positive feeling. So I feel that I am part of this part of the world. I'm integrated and it's an enormous feeling. And also having the possibility to work with the landscape, together with my friends, the cows, vitalizing the system. It's extremely joyful. And when I think about that, and I also know from knowing the numbers as a scientist, I'm an ecologist like you, we have the numbers that we heal. We do heal the system. We sequester carbon. We improve water holding capacity, nutrient holding capacity. We improve nutrient mineral cycling, water cycle, all of that. This is extremely hopeful.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and I think a lot about young people detached from the basis of our lives, ecosystems, in despair about climate change and war and strange people ruling the world. I would really be wanting to share with them more what we experience on a daily basis.
Speaker #0
I find it interesting. I'm a third generation. We're tenants on our farm, but we don't have children. And so when we go, somebody else will take on the tenancy. And I see myself as a long line of, part of a long line of farmers that have lived there and have worked the land. And I'll do my bit and then I'll die and I'll be gone. And then somebody else will come along and they'll take on the, you know, the. looking after the place and the biodiversity and and there's something incredibly comforting about the idea of that legacy of what you've done and and you're a guardian for the time you're there and i don't i've always been fascinated by this idea of farmer succession we don't say oh well you're you can't be a doctor your dad's not a doctor why do we say you can't be a farmer if That's not a pharma. It's ridiculous. Anybody can be a farmer, I think. You just need a certain set of skills. My husband comes from a very urban background with no farming experience. And he's the most wonderful stockman. Yeah, he's gentle and he's got empathy. He's just lovely. And I think it's about showing young people that this is a possibility for them. You don't have to have a huge amount of capital. You could rent a farm. You could come into it by many different ways and maybe in a different place, maybe in a different country, but it's a possibility for you. And I think, as you say, there's so much darkness in the world and horror, but this is something that can give real meaning to people's lives and is so hopeful.
Speaker #2
It is.
Speaker #0
It's so good. Why doesn't everybody want to be a farmer? Right,
Speaker #2
yeah, I get you, exactly. And actually, large parts of the school system and education within farming, to some degree, sometimes to a large degree, stands in the way. Because it's reductionist, it reduces everything, all the joy and the happiness to... to numbers that even those numbers aren't very relevant if you actually want to achieve ecosystem vitalization. So then it comes down, it's just a job. You could just, you know, it's nothing different from being employed by a big food retailer somewhere. You're just another link in the chain and you're not attached to the farming and to the animals and to the nature. So we have to take that back.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I always say that I want to farm like my granddad did. You know, he had a very rich, very seasonal life. And his animals would go away in the winter to the lowlands. And he would have less work to do on the farm. And then he would just, it was a very, he would have some sheep. And it was all very simple. And then the cows would come back in the summer. And it was kind of... you Very low input, very little money, but actually his richness was in the amount of food he could grow for himself.
Speaker #2
You're working with a different currency, right? Yeah,
Speaker #0
and his currency was not being dependent on other people. You know, fiercely independent. And I see that that's a really exciting thing.
Speaker #2
Sometimes I have a little bit of problems with independency. I've read talk about codependency because you really wanted to do this together with other people. Because like your customers or mine, because I sell my projects the same way you do. And when we started, we thought that we would have locally because we really want to sell our meat locally. Because otherwise people living far away, friends of ours, you know, hours away, they would like to buy from us. and I tell him, well, it's That's all very nice, but we have a good friend in your area. Use your source and meet there instead. So we were a little bit hesitant. Will we be able to sell everything? So we started talking to people, and we had a mail list, and we put it out. And in two days, everything was sold. Yeah. So there was an urge. There was a demand much higher than we could experience because people really valued... Knowing that when I consume this meat together with friends at dinner, I am a part of vitalizing the landscape. I can't say that they would put it in just those words, but I'm quite sure that that's the sentiment that they feel. So they become a part of our codependency. So they actually become a part of my farm, if you like.
Speaker #0
Well, they become part of our wider ecosystem, don't they? Our social landscape. And then we touch out much further into the community than we could as individuals. I love it. We have sheep and there are many different colors. So they range from black to white, but through all of the colors of browns and golds. And they're very beautiful. we um We shear them off and we sell the wool and we sell the sheepskins when the sheep are slaughtered. And people buy them and they're expensive. And people value the fact that they're organic, they're regenerative, they're beautiful. And they're becoming something that's going to be really important in their home. It's like a piece of software machine in their home. and they put their babies on them because it's a lovely organic thing to put your small baby on. What is more precious than a thing that you put a baby on? And this just, the richness that you get from that is enormous, I think.
Speaker #2
Yeah. And would you say that your customers, as they interact with you, they buy your meat, your skin, the wool, do they feel, would you think that they feel that they... also take on responsibility for the landscape when doing so.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. The number of people, since we've used social media and blogs to engage people, so we never advertise meat, we just do it through social media. Yeah, yeah. You know, we're just like, oh, we've got some meat coming.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And it'll be gone.
Speaker #2
That's the same story for me. Exactly. You hear this from so many different places in the world. And this, that, it's not just you and me. It's a lot of other people. This is quite a strong message. That our people around us actually want something else. And those people who actually are not saying it out loud that they want that, I'm quite sure it's because they are not aware that this is a possibility. So this is where we have work to do.
Speaker #1
Just a really quick pause from this awesome conversation to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, Soil Capital. Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health or biodiversity. If you'd like to learn more about them, I will leave a link in the description of this episode.
Speaker #0
I think we have a lot of work to do around communication. And I think when you can tell that story about, I think both our cases, you know, we're doing a lot for nature conservation by using our grazing animals to deliver for biodiversity. And that story is a beautiful thing, isn't it? Your cow or your sheep has lived a wild, natural life in a nature-rich place. And its presence is good for nature recovery.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's a lovely story.
Speaker #2
A lot of times when I teach holistic management of regenerative agriculture, we talk about the grazing animals as tools for regenerating the ecosystem. Now, a lot of people, they kind of hesitate when I say tool about my friend, the cow. But when I explain that, I'm a tool too. We're all just tools together to make about the positive change. Now we're getting into this debate whether should we have production areas or should we have nature? Because that's what society tells us that we have to choose. And what we say all the time is that we can actually use domesticated cattle as a proxy for the mega herbivores that were around before we, in our poor wisdom, killed off most of them. We had them, didn't we? Yeah. So now that critical component of a well-functioning ecosystem is to a large degree gone. So we have to take on the responsibility to replace that component with the domesticated animals and us playing sort of the carnivores that keep the cattle in place and move them around. And when I explain this to people, we are trying to mimic what evolution actually uh invented over millions of years people can understand that this is probably a good idea i think i get quite hung up when people talk about the nature
Speaker #0
or production right like it's a dichotomy you can't have both and i and then when people talk about nature and rewilding i get quite Peace. I think it's quite contentious. I think there is a continuum from conventional agriculture to full rewilding, full natural processes. And I think that regenerative agriculture sits in that place along that continuum and different farms sit in different places. I think I'm quite close. My cows have run on a very, very extensive system and they have a lot of autonomy to decide where they want to go. but a fully rewilded system. we have a big fashion in England at the moment for people to, everybody who's got a lot of money, which is quite a few people, wants bison at the moment. They're like the trendy thing of the moment. So there's a big market for bison. And people are putting bison into woodlands. But bison don't like people particularly. They're not great with public access. And then... They've not been in our system for a long time and every cow, every bovine in England has to be tested regularly for bovine tuberculosis. And they really don't like that. And so you think, well, I can see that having these animals, you know, they're really a sort of conspicuous megafauna, aren't they? They're like,
Speaker #2
wow.
Speaker #0
But...
Speaker #2
It's a very attractive thought, isn't it? That you can rewild, bring back those mega herbivores that are still around and just put them into our system and everything just will sort of...
Speaker #0
itself out without thinking about the framework right of legislation like right tb testing and yeah yeah and there is a little bit of infrastructure in the way as well yeah highways cities yeah cities people yeah and you think well the a domestic cow probably isn't as good at that ecosystem engineering yeah but she's probably pretty good
Speaker #2
If you give them a chance. Yeah, they act within the ecosystem if they get the possibility to do so. Very similar to what a bison would do.
Speaker #0
Yeah, but not as kind of attractive for people. No, no. And then that's about humans wanting to have their impact on the system.
Speaker #2
It's not as David Attenborough-ish.
Speaker #0
No. And it's maybe not as cool, but I do think that we should be um People take the horns off cattle now, don't they? If cows have horns, they'll take the horns off. But actually, that makes them a much better ecosystem engineer, getting in and rubbing on trees and generally having a bit of a good time.
Speaker #2
So I have a hornless breed, naturally hornless.
Speaker #0
And so that's a choice,
Speaker #2
isn't it? Yeah. It's an old heritage breed. They function very well in our landscape. And I just, the landscape. tells me that these are the ones that we want. So it's fine with us there.
Speaker #0
I think that often there are breeds of animal that are indigenous to a place, and they grew up there because of the conditions there.
Speaker #2
And they are molded by the conditions and vice versa.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I think it's amazing that those breeds have probably got traits that will be useful for us in the future, particularly within regenerative systems. Yeah, yeah. It would be great if we could have some kind of way of supporting that.
Speaker #2
And this is another thing I think about when coming back to the hope thing. I'm continuously fascinated by the competences and the intelligence that the cows and the rest of the nature also has. And I've seen so many examples of us. We're like Socrates. I'm a little bit smarter than the other ones because I know that I don't know anything. There is so much more to know. And you could be like feeling very frustrated because I know so little. I flip it over. I'm just fascinated. It's great there is so much that we don't know, which is intrinsic in nature. Nature, it's evolved over time. And so one thing that actually is a part of also bringing hope is that we, instead of thinking engineering, we can trust that nature actually have the solutions already. Just try to, as much as we can, to observe and, you know, without all the... School knowledge that stands in the way to observe and then try to take our part to let nature work as close to evolution as made it as possible.
Speaker #0
I think
Speaker #2
I tried to do that on a daily basis. And it feels like it's strong feeling that this is probably most probably the best thing that I can do for myself and for my, you know, my family and everybody else around.
Speaker #0
I think that business, I find myself wanting to go in and intervene with things.
Speaker #3
Yeah,
Speaker #2
you have to struggle that all the time, don't you?
Speaker #0
And I really struggle because it's almost like I have to justify why I'm the farmer. Because actually nature and most often my livestock, they don't need me. You know, they'd be perfectly fine without me, thank you. It's just that I kind of, I fill in the forms and generally buy bits and pieces for them. And that it is that wonder of how much nature can thrive if you just give it the opportunity and that livestock can as well.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker #0
That's beautiful.
Speaker #2
So when we feel so much joy and hope in what we're doing on a daily basis, all we want, not all we want, but what we really would like to have happen is to bring it to as many other people as possible. Right?
Speaker #0
Yep.
Speaker #2
And that's the reason for why I am an EARA farmer, I would say. Because I think that this platform might be the most powerful thing I've seen.
Speaker #0
so far in order to propagate this i think um for me i i live in a very tight-knit farming community uh that's very insular um so it's a very hilly region in an otherwise super productive area so it sort of sits in a sea of dairy farming um and
Speaker #2
so you're the other one out there yeah yeah in my swamp Ha
Speaker #0
It's very, very wet. So we're doing a lot of land management for flooding and water quality and quantity to stop downstream flooding. And we're really keen on that. And we work with a farm cluster and we do lots of good things. But it all felt very inward looking. So we didn't feel that we were... Leaving Europe was incredibly... negative for me i felt the whole brexit vote felt very difficult it felt like a closing down of opportunity yeah and then what we were doing around the land management feels incredibly hopeful and there's lots of good things around species recovery and landscape scale working and working with other farmers but um but it was difficult to see how that could scale out right And Iyara seemed to me to be a way of learning from completely new people you know i i was thrilled when i heard that you graze your cows in a forest in a forest in england nobody would put cows in a forest but actually not so many in southern sweden either but of course if you were a cow what could be a better place to live in than a than a woodland with shade and and dappled light and shelter how fantastic and and so It's like every time I go onto a call with the ER or I read something, I pick up something every time. And it's that opening out and that blossoming of hearing new ideas from people that have a completely different perspective, that are farming in a completely different way. And from just this amazing group of people on the OT, the operating team. Just incredible, you know, this massive enthusiasm and drive. And energy. And energy. And I just look at them and just say, whew, you know, they're so inspiring. And they make so many things happen for us farmers.
Speaker #2
They are very dear to us.
Speaker #0
Very dear to us indeed. And I find it constantly invigorating being part of IARA, actually.
Speaker #2
Yeah, me too.
Speaker #0
I think we joined at the same time. I think Yeah, I think we both appeared at the castle together. Yeah, right, yeah. And I just remember arriving at the castle, the crazy castle, with that amazing building in that incredible landscape with beavers in the valley and just thinking I'd stepped almost into like a parallel universe with these people that had come together and how...
Speaker #2
That's really amazing. I came from, you know, being part of the regenerative movement in Sweden. Before that, the first thing, hearing anything about that was Ellen Zaver's TED Talk in 2013. I watched it on YouTube in 2015 or 16. And then I started searching for... for people who are doing anything in this direction in Sweden. It took me a couple of years. I was in a divorce too, and at the same time, I met my now wife. So life was a little bit, you know, up and down at the time, or down and up. And then I got into the Swedish Redundancy Movement, and that was a strong sense of homecoming. I felt that this is the way, the place I like to be. But still... I had very little knowledge about what's going on in Europe. I heard and read a lot about what's happening in the States because there are so many proponents there that have been very verbal. You can find everything and anything on YouTube from people like Gabe Brown and Yul Saladin and all of those guys. But from Europe, not so much. Then I heard about the ARA. And now, suddenly... Hang on, there's lots of people all over Europe.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And as you say, farming in so many very different ways, but we all adhere to the same principles.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
It's all nature-based. It's all systemic. It's all...
Speaker #0
uh taking responsibility right yeah and the whole i must admit the first time i heard i i read the phrase unity and diversity i was like it sounded a bit culty to me and i was a bit like but the more i think about it it's exactly the right words because it is everybody it's such a lovely inclusive way of talking about all of the different ways and encompassing all the different ways that we can we can be on that regenerative path together and it being about a like a constant improvement a constant learning and growth and such a positive thing and i think um i love going to the castle but going to pulacaro this year that that place Actually, I thought my brain was going to melt. It was so exciting. It just had this revelation walking down the track. And I looked, this is really charming, I looked at a giant pile of dog shit. It was huge. It must have been a kilo of proper white dog poo, which you never see white dog poo anymore. And it was from where the dogs were eating bones and natural raw food. And the heaving amount of insect life and stuff that was going on. And the dogs and the chickens and the goats and just the whole ecosystem seeming to revolve around those guardian dogs. And just this incredible bond of people. to the animals to the place in this amazing like a dance it is that that was beautiful that's a nice way to put it we're all dancing together we're all just dancing together across europe and it's just fantastic yeah yeah and and this uh describing
Speaker #2
it this way it this is also the answer to why there is so much energy among people doing this because you you you don't want to stop you want to keep going
Speaker #0
You don't want to be the person that steps out, really. You never want to let anybody down. And I think, and everybody feels that way, which is why it's so important. And I find each time that new people join, it's like your family's growing bigger and bigger. And it's not like a sense of, oh, now I've got to share. It's like, wow, more people, you know, and just that momentum.
Speaker #2
There's a revelation that this is going on in so many different places. And that's also part of the answer to how we can make this grow. Because we are approaching, I sometimes get the sense that we're approaching quite quickly, like a critical mass, where this is going eventually to be the standard way. Yeah. Instead of industrial agriculture, very much dependent on different inputs in terms of artificial fertilizer and diesel and all of that. So people will, that will be on history's, what do you call it?
Speaker #0
In the history books.
Speaker #2
No, landfill. In the history books. Yeah, well, it's something that we used to do that wasn't very smart. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker #0
And I think as long as we learn from things that aren't so smart, that's okay. But I think what bothers me is the number of people that I see in my own community, the number of farmers that are so, even post-Brexit, and we haven't got farm support in the same way in England. We're losing our area payments. In fact, I think they've gone now completely. And so we've got this... very complicated agri-environment system that's quite difficult to apply for um and you have to get an agent to help you and farmers feel a sense of entitlement for that money and with that entitlement comes this this
Speaker #2
disconnect from the whole reason for being a farmer yeah and you victimize yourself yeah yeah and that's that's what happens all the time when when the rest of society... Including the academy and all the consultants say, you should listen to us. We will give you the recipe on how to handle the land. And we, as a society, we treat farmers as someone who are, they are not.
Speaker #0
up for it that they they need help from everybody yeah we yeah we victimize them yeah they become the victim yeah and then all of those those companies and and advisors become their rescuer right and they never get out of that trap and and it's like i think iara is part of our role is to shine a light and to say you know look yeah stop stop looking at this circle of despair
Speaker #2
come over here see there's another way yeah but you so when you when you take that step away instead of farming by someone else's recipe and start observing that's what we were talking about before yeah you start observing see how does the different parts of nature how do the different parts of nature interact what can i learn every time i'm there with the cows or in the forest whatever, I can learn something new. And I can't... I can change the way I do the different things that I do, where the cows, I have the cows grazing at different parts of the season, in which numbers, et cetera. I can, small changes and constantly observe. I will have the ability to better, together with my friends, the cows even have an even better positive effect. on the environment. And you can do that. You can do that in market garden. You can do that in grain production or whatever. So the key is observation, experimentation, and observation again, and seeing what you actually can do. And then you take on responsibility rather than being a victim to everything else beside you. And hopefully in the long run, you will be in a situation where we are not... independent of everything from the governments in terms of subsidies and stuff. So we talked about that also during these days a lot. So subsidies is like the farmer has to come and beg, and society gives them a little bit of money, and that's subsidy. We are so nice to you farmers. Flip it over. Farmers, we deliver services. It's just natural that we should be remunerated.
Speaker #1
If you enjoy listening to the Deep Seat Podcast, please, please support me and my work. You can do that in just five seconds by just clicking on the like and the subscribe button just down here at the bottom of your screen. And if you want to go a small extra step, you can also leave us a message in the comment section or ask us a question. We'll make sure to get back to you with an answer as soon as possible. Thank you so much in advance. Much love. And let's get back to the end of this conversation.
Speaker #0
In England, there's a lot of issues around farmers feel that they're dictated to through science and evidence. But they don't understand the science and evidence because it's put in a language and in a way that's just impenetrable to them. And I think that...
Speaker #2
And it's not relevant either. It's not relevant, yeah. Because it's theoretical, given certain conditions, that actually it's really hard to find the place where those exact conditions apply. Then it's not really relevant anymore. So the experts regarding what actually works in terms of regeneration on a specific farm, that's the farmer on site. And obviously the farmer can use the reductionist research as a tool, as another tool in the improvement of ecosystem processes.
Speaker #0
But for me, it's really important that the value of science can be fantastic. There's some things, you know, climate change, irrefutable. you know that's just it is happening yeah oh but but you can you need to make useful science into a language that farmers can understand and then can apply to their own farm but also making it so that observation is something that's respected you know but to observe you need to get off your tractor or off your pod bike and you need to stand in silence on your land yeah and listen and smell yeah hear properly and watch.
Speaker #2
And try to understand the whole rather than separate pieces. And this is also something that's extremely important in terms of how we use science and the tools of science when we study complex systems like ecosystems or the human body or social organizations, whatever. So the reductionist way of doing science, it's the tool that's not really applicable when you're trying to understand how it works. complex system works. So we need to, instead of studying details in complex systems, we need to study the system as a whole and to take to together all the different pieces and compare the regenerative agricultural system to conventional. Not a detail from each with each other, but the whole system. And this way of doing science, so far, at least in Sweden, most scientists, they are quite uncomfortable because they feel that they are asked to step out of their comfort zone. into another part of science that they don't have the top knowledge within. So they're uncomfortable. But I think I get the sense that also they are moving, not fast enough, but a little bit anyway, in that direction, that they do understand that it doesn't work to look at just a little bit of details. They have to look at the whole. I heard a conversation with, it was on a John Kempf podcast with an American woman, I don't remember her name now. And she was talking a lot about this, that we have to look at systems. Because it's no point in looking at the different parts of the system. By doing that, there's no chance that you can understand how the complex system as a whole works.
Speaker #0
And to think that we... The complexity is the beauty and we will make mistakes and that's all right. You know, as a farmer quite often I'll try something new and it fails and that's fine. You know, as long as you learn from it and you know what you did and you can then think it through and go, oh, I see. Okay, I shouldn't have done that. That's okay.
Speaker #2
And it's very likely that the mistakes that you... you make they aren't you know like uh uh the risk that the you that the system will topple topple over yeah no because you're constant constantly observing so so when you're doing that you will pick up And you're monitoring, you're able to control before things get worse. And then you will also, when it goes in the direction you don't want, you can replan.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And then, you know, the feedback loop goes around and around.
Speaker #0
And I think that an understanding that it's okay to try something new. Yeah. And then if that doesn't work, you can try something else. And that's how. Yeah, human evolution must have worked like that. Yeah,
Speaker #2
yeah. I have to share one example. I had, you know, when I started to graze all of those peatland, drained peatland that I talked about before, that hadn't been grazed for 20, 25 years, more reeds than grass. Did we talk about this? Yeah. Yeah, I can share it again. We haven't told all these people. Because this was, I had the idea that high animal impact, would be the solution because they will just trample down all the reeds. Yeah, and I was quite confident in my hybris, you know, theoretical scientist thinking this out. Yeah, and the result was the opposite. Less grass and more reeds. Yeah, yeah. And I was, you know, I felt... I felt like I tricked myself into this. And I thought, what am I going to do now? So I talked to this guy. He has no scientific training at all, but he has much more experience with running cattle than me, both on different kinds of lands, including drained peatland. So he said that, well, in my experience, what worked with not high animal impact, quite uh uh quite low impact for a short period of time. And then let the system rest and let them come back. And I thought about it a long time. I thought, hang on, that might work. So the critical thing here is that if you have the grasses that are there, which actually have co-evolved with the grazers, In order for them to be able to compete with the reeds, they need to be handled with care in the beginning. Now, when they have really picked up energy and have had their resting periods and they can grow vigorously, then you can also raise them with a high impact. But not when they are really starting. off. So what I did was that I picked up that idea but I also thought okay so these reeds they were like big bushes so I thought I need us need to do something more so I decided to just after having the animals grazing there, low animal impact just short time, I took out the tractor and I cut the reed like bunches. at like 25, 30 centimeters. And I thought, okay, so the regrown grass wouldn't be affected. And then when I came back like three or four weeks later, I could see the regrowth from the grass, but not from the reeds. So already after a few weeks, the grass was taking over. And I almost started to cry. Because I saw with my observation, my understanding, don't just be a theoretical scientist with hybrids. And we're talking to my very good friend who is not a scientist, but could get me down to earth. I actually found, this is actually working. So now I've done it in other places as well. And yeah. and it seems to actually be working like so i did what so this summer when we bail hay on place like that i i have like so much better hay quality than i ever had for in the few years that i've been doing that there i uh i've got a similar story we we have a a
Speaker #0
lot of european gorse which is non-native super invasive uh goose gorse so i i It's a very spiky plant. Ah,
Speaker #2
it's a plant.
Speaker #0
It's a huge plant. It'll grow up to sort of two meters high, smothers everything out, and nothing will graze it.
Speaker #2
What is it, like a thistle or no?
Speaker #0
Oh, it's like a shrub.
Speaker #2
Right, okay. A woody shrub. It's a woody shrub, all right.
Speaker #0
And it loves being burnt. So the more my dad... my dad my bless him he would go out regularly set fire to it which was very exciting you get like meters of flame going everywhere uh but then it the the seed uh falls onto the bare ash and it's the first thing to germinate so actually it's fire um you know it loves a bit of fire so it's like fire dependent yeah it's fire dependent and and it's just out competing all of your native. sort of grasses and flowers yeah and we my dad said well you know this would be good for this it was an area by a by a river he said it would be good for it to be woodland yeah so i'm going to burn the gorse down yeah and plant trees right so engineering yeah man dominates like nature so off you went and then we took over the my husband and i took over the farm and i went right I'm going to burn the gorse and he said don't be ridiculous you know that's just making it worse is the gorse getting any less I said no it's not getting any less he's just just leave it yeah and we had a stand of birch trees yeah and uh there was the from the predominant wind was blowing the seed into the gorse yeah and then the little trees were beginning to grow up and then as the birch trees grew up through because nobody was burning the gorse off all the time and killing all the baby trees right all of the gauze is it doesn't like being in the shade right and so all the gauze is getting shaded out and the birch trees are growing and the beautiful natural flora is returning underneath it's like oh yeah yeah just be humble yeah leave it alone yeah and let nature do what nature needs to do yeah and be patient right so i think you know observation, learning, but also having My husband and I don't set the phone to him.
Speaker #2
And what you're talking about is a disturbance regime. And that's quite a good way of thinking, because that makes you understand that nature isn't static. It's dynamic. It's disturbance continuously. And with a specific type of disturbance regime, you will have a certain type of development. and starting. Rather than succession, you will have a state when transition that goes back and forth a little bit. But when you keep up the disturbance regime and understanding how to do that, you will be able to keep a dynamic going on. It's not a static thing. It's a dynamic continuously going on.
Speaker #0
And I think it comes back to joy. You know, you get from that holding back and observing, you get that, you know, now I go down and I stand and I look at my little trees growing that have cost me nothing. And they're just this amazing habitat. And it's a sense of joy. And it is that wonder in what nature can do. Yeah,
Speaker #2
there are so many examples of this. that there are a lot of people who are who have a lot of trouble with thistles, nettles, and duck. Their grazing areas are full of that. They think up all of these mechanical engineering solutions to reduce those problems. What I hear from, what I feel myself, what I can see myself, and what I hear from a lot of people that do regenerative grazing is that we don't worry about that. that it sorts itself out yeah when when you when you adapt to grazing and it's uh uh and you let the the grasses and the the forbs that evolved with the grazing animals in symbiosis when you let it function the way evolution made it function it will sort itself out and the thistles and the the doc anyway. They are... they are also signaling to you that something is wrong here.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
So.
Speaker #0
Yeah, listen to what you're being told. Yeah. And I think, I know that for me, docks are where I've got compaction.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
But I don't want to get rid of them because there's nothing more beautiful than a flock of goldfinches. feeding on dock seed in the autumn it's a beautiful thing yeah yeah so you know a few docks is a small price yeah there's room for a little bit of that too yeah and this is another interesting thing when we talk about you know all these uh my
Speaker #2
old colleagues from university nature conservationist people uh one thought as you know as biologists is that I have all these, you know, friends from university who started biology, who now works in nature conservation. In courses at university, they were told, you know, together with me, that nature is dynamic. Everything changes, we have the disturbance regimes, all of that. And now a lot of those people... those people. Those people, not us. Well, my friends, they were working, you know, with nature conservation in some kind of government place. And they seem to have completely forgotten about the dynamics of nature, which they have studied at university. And they are working with nature conservation. I have a problem with that word. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't conserve a state.
Speaker #0
And it's like you can bring it to that. a good state or a favorable state, when we call it in England, but not thinking that that isn't an amazing dynamic thing. Yeah,
Speaker #2
that's the key.
Speaker #0
And you're not going to get it there and it's going to somehow stay there. Yeah. Like, ta-da You know, it's not something that needs constant...
Speaker #2
So that's not... We were talking about conventional farming. A lot of problems arise when you think you can engineer nature. That nature conservation idea, that's also a kind of engineering idea. I want to keep all these. A lot of times it's focused on a few indicator species. I want to keep those. So you're looking at the details, you're missing the whole. How did the habitat for these species come about? That's the question you constantly should ask yourself when you're working with that. And there is a disturbance regime that made this possible. So that's what you have to find out. What is that? And then try to not stand in the way for that. And a lot of times in Sweden and a lot of many other places, it's so very many times linked to grazing animals.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
All over the place.
Speaker #0
We've got a beautiful butterfly, the marsh fritillary butterfly. And it is on our wet, peaty Maya systems. But the marsh fertility butterfly isn't very good at flying. So it's not very good.
Speaker #2
It's too bad if you're a butterfly.
Speaker #0
It's really bad. You're a butterfly living in a rainy swamp. Aye.
Speaker #2
And you can't fly.
Speaker #0
They're not very good at flying. And everything tries to, it's got a parasitic wasp. And so it's no good managing small patches. so a group of us Farmers have come together as a farm cluster to manage for the marsh fertility butterfly. We're all passionate about it because when it flies, it's orange and brown, and it's like a flying stained glass window. It's the most beautiful little thing. I don't think we have that one. Oh, it's so good. We're very proud of it.
Speaker #2
It's like endangered?
Speaker #0
Oh, super endangered. and we have a We have a tiny cup that came from a charity shop and we have an organisation that are really interested in the butterflies. And they come out and they walk a transect on everybody's farms. And then we compete for this rubbish little cup every year. And it's the biggest competition, you know, and it's always... But what it means is we're all tied into this thing and looking after the metapopulation. there's competition there's community and but some years somebody will have a huge population and the next year they'll have nothing and that's why it's important to look at the whole dynamic habitat yeah yeah so i have to ask so all these nature conservationist people that come around how
Speaker #2
do they interact with you are they like so because there are so many cases where people Those people, sorry, they have come around and say, okay, we can't let farmers handle this because they don't know anything about that butterfly. And then they would like to put, you know, all these restrictions on what you can and can't do. And a lot of times the result is you lose those endangered species.
Speaker #0
I think that's very true in the past. Yeah. But I think that... our nature conservation agencies in in england we've got amazing environmental ngos like butterfly conservation and the staff that they employ are very uh very balanced on their understanding of the role of farmers and see their value yeah and i would say that it's all down to the quality of that individual advisor yeah yeah that makes or breaks a project yeah and you And also the longevity that they're in place, so that they've got a decent amount of time and funding, so they've got enough time to build relationships with people to sort out the species that needs the sorting.
Speaker #2
Yeah, I think we're a little bit behind in Sweden in that sense. And a lot of things are happening. I worked at a conference three years ago, where we, me and a few others, within the regenerative movement we were invited to talk about how we work with with grazing uh and how the the idea was that let's see how we can can work together better how they can use us as a resource in their nature conservation work lack of better word um so and it's i went there with a sense that okay they're probably gonna tell me now you can't graze the way it's Because a lot of times they have this idea that they have to degenerate the system in order for these poor competitive species to thrive. And that's completely contradictory to what I want to do. I want a vibrant system which actually we know can keep much more biodiversity in total numbers of species. So I was expecting opposition. But I was surprised that... The way we approached understanding of ecosystem processes, they didn't protest, but they have a conflict within them. They do understand the importance of well-functioning ecosystem processes, but at the same time, they have sort of decided that these few poor competitive species are proxies for total biodiversity. you It's very confusing for them. So when they're making a plan for how to handle a nature reserve somewhere, far too many times it actually suggests to do degenerative grazing.
Speaker #0
yeah and i think not seeing um that nature nature conservation can sit alongside farm systems and be completely integrated in yeah and i think so that's why i think you get this
Speaker #2
dichotomy with farming and nature yeah yeah farming and rewilding as well yeah you know i think it's all part of the same thing yeah and yeah and what i was going to say is that the the nature conservationist at this conference they said some one thing that that stuck in my mind and was really a key to understand for me anyway how we could better work together because they described what they were doing on a daily basis that was managing small stamps of land dispersed in a sea of green that they have no possibility to handle or to work with at all. And actually, one of them said, actually, is this all we want to do really work with these small stamps? No, we want something more. And who might be the best people for us to make that happen? That's actually the the land stewards out there, the farmers. So if we can come together from our different perspectives, it can become quite powerful. So I spend some time trying to get, and we will have a conference with our Swedish NGO, a yearly annual meeting, where we're actually talking about these things. How can we bring these two?
Speaker #0
two attitudes these two two views together we've had a really successful thing in england which is catchment sensitive farming right and it's about we have massive problems with water pollution from from intensive dairy in particular but from intensive cattle systems yeah and catchment sensitive farming employed people that understand about the water environment but also have a very strong background in farming yeah and so they were going in Thank you. To help farmers with a problem. And then on the back of that.
Speaker #2
The ones causing the pollution.
Speaker #0
The ones causing the pollution, but to come up with solutions with them on their farm. Right. To make it better. Yeah. And then, so these were really intensive. These are really intensive farmers.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And then they were going, and at the same time, whilst you're thinking about catchment sensitive farming, what about all these other things you could do for nature as well?
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And because they were very trusted. And they were very agricultural focused. They were almost giving legitimacy for the farmers to go, oh, I could think about nature conservation as well. And that was, I think it's an incredibly powerful model for how you get into all of that bright green sea of ground. That poor little patches of nature sit in a patchwork. It's completely unsustainable to manage them that way. So
Speaker #2
In some way managed to get the farmers to understand that this is something that they could gain from. What was the key?
Speaker #0
I think there's something about farmers letting go a little bit, that they don't have to manage every bit of land right up to the edge of a nature reserve. Celebrating good... You know, when they do great things, celebrating what they're doing, celebrating their investment and their time. I do think that the role of advice and helping people on that journey is really important. But I think farmers being part of the solution rather than being part of the problem is a massive part of that transition.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and it's very important the way you approach a farmer. at that time, isn't it? If you go there with the sense that this is a polluter that I have to force to stop, or you approach them as part of the solution instead. Yeah. A very different situation to meet someone.
Speaker #0
I mean, you're dealing with most of the problems with the environment. People, not, I come from people. They don't come from anywhere else. And it's our behavior that has such an impact. Woo, I'm done. Yeah.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Join your host, Raphaël, on an exciting journey into the heart of sustainable farming and environmental resilience. The podcast is packed with inspiring conversations with regenerative farmers, cutting-edge innovators, and leading experts who are pioneering the movement towards a more regenerative food system.

Whether you’re a passionate advocate for sustainability, a professional in agriculture or environmental science, or just curious about the future of our food systems, the Deep Seed Podcast is your gateway to the vibrant world of regenerative agriculture.

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Produced in partnership with Soil Capital, a leader in supporting regenerative agriculture and rewarding farmers for improving soil health, this podcast is a must-listen for anyone interested in sustainable farming and climate action.

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

This is not another conversation about agricultural policy, carbon markets, subsidies or food system bureaucracy.

It is a deeply human conversation about regenerative farming, biodiversity, grazing animals, soil health, ecosystem restoration, community, belonging… and joy.

At the heart of the conversation is a powerful idea: farmers are not simply producers trapped inside industrial systems. They are observers, experimenters and caretakers of living ecosystems.

It is hopeful without being naïve.

A conversation about farming, yes — but also about how humans might find their way back to meaning, resilience and connection in an increasingly fractured world.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
the primal thing that drives me in my farming system and that's joy that the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer i get the chills what are you talking about farming like that welcome
Speaker #1
back to the deep seed and thank you so much for tuning in today we have a wonderful wonderful conversation between two regenerative farmers so naomi from the uk and Gunnar from Sweden. Absolutely love this conversation because they are both so passionate and so in love with their job and their lifestyle and the way they're farming in harmony with nature and with animals. We spent a lot of time talking about how much better regenerative agriculture is from a technical perspective, ecological perspective and even economical, right? And these are all super important. But I feel like we're not talking enough about how much more... Nourishing for the soul regenerative farming is. And that's huge, right? Because we know that a majority of farmers are going to be retiring in the next 10 years. And we need millions and millions of young people coming to farming. But the problem is that young people, myself included, are not interested in the old conventional extractive model of agriculture. We're not interested in spending our days destroying ecosystems, spraying chemicals to kill life. And all of that, right? So we need a version, a vision for agriculture that is exciting for young people, that is fun, that is desirable. And I really think that regenerative agriculture offers just that. I love this conversation because it's filled with joy and with hope. And God knows we need a little dose of joy and hope right now. This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. I'm your host, Raphael. And this is the Deep Seat Podcast.
Speaker #0
So, let's talk about joy.
Speaker #2
Yeah, go ahead Naomi.
Speaker #0
So, the things that I've taken away from the last two days here in Brussels is that we've talked about lots of systemic issues and the need for funding and the need for verification and all sorts of things. Well, what we've not talked about is the primal thing that drives me in my farming system. And that's joy, the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer after a life of working off the farm as an ecologist. And just how incredible it is to have the time and the space to interact with my animals and my landscape and then sell my products to people. And just how incredible that is.
Speaker #2
as a process and what a luxury and i wondered if you could tell me about what that's like for you that resonates to me a lot i get the chills when you talk about farming like that i'm a bit envious too because i i don't don't do it full time i i would love to but still you know i spend a lot of time uh teaching and and and consulting and which is also extremely rewarding because you can see the lights appearing in people's eyes. Well, it's not that I bring them a gospel. It's more like I help them to open the rise for what they really have in front of them in their very own place, so they can get the same sense of joy that you're talking about. Because I have to say, that's what drives me too. Whenever I'm feeling a little bit, you know, not so comfortable, stressed out, the very best thing is to go to my cows and hang out with them for a while because they just ooze out well-being. What's the opposite to being stressed?
Speaker #0
Being chilled, I suppose. I find it really interesting. It's soothing. Very soothing. Very, very good for your soul. I find it really interesting that if I go to work with my cows, and I'm stressed, and I'm holding tension, they won't have it. They don't want to interact with me. They don't want me there, because I'm not... in a positive space this is true they'll give you the eye yeah they give you the side eye come back come back when you calm down come back when you've sorted your stuff out and then i'll be ready and that different and realizing that if you're like that and that you have that impact on animals you must have that impact on people as well yeah and to realize that you are they they're just mirror bring back your behavior yeah and and it's it's so humbling to be put in your place by a cow oh yes it's a beautiful thing and and i think that i look at the the richness that they give me it's much more than being a farmer in a place um i i think that um at christmas time i live in a small village and out of the people in our village you Maybe half of them have bought meat from us that was for their Christmas meal.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker #0
And that just, it gives me such a sense of rootedness within my community that somebody chooses for probably one of the most important celebratory meals for their year that they want something from my farm.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's great.
Speaker #0
How many times do you have to be reassured that you have a place and a position in your community? And I think so many farmers feel disconnected from their place and from their community and they don't feel valued. And that must be terrible.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Absolutely terrible.
Speaker #2
A lot of this has to do with a sense of coherence and a sense of belonging. Where I live, it's the place where I grew up. I was two years old when my... My parents bought the farm and we moved there. I don't remember anything before that. And I lived away from when I was about 20. I lived away for 30 years. I never felt at home anywhere else. And then a few years ago, five years ago, I moved back. And I feel that now I own land there. That land doesn't belong to me, I belong to the land. And it's a very strong feeling, it's a very positive feeling. So I feel that I am part of this part of the world. I'm integrated and it's an enormous feeling. And also having the possibility to work with the landscape, together with my friends, the cows, vitalizing the system. It's extremely joyful. And when I think about that, and I also know from knowing the numbers as a scientist, I'm an ecologist like you, we have the numbers that we heal. We do heal the system. We sequester carbon. We improve water holding capacity, nutrient holding capacity. We improve nutrient mineral cycling, water cycle, all of that. This is extremely hopeful.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and I think a lot about young people detached from the basis of our lives, ecosystems, in despair about climate change and war and strange people ruling the world. I would really be wanting to share with them more what we experience on a daily basis.
Speaker #0
I find it interesting. I'm a third generation. We're tenants on our farm, but we don't have children. And so when we go, somebody else will take on the tenancy. And I see myself as a long line of, part of a long line of farmers that have lived there and have worked the land. And I'll do my bit and then I'll die and I'll be gone. And then somebody else will come along and they'll take on the, you know, the. looking after the place and the biodiversity and and there's something incredibly comforting about the idea of that legacy of what you've done and and you're a guardian for the time you're there and i don't i've always been fascinated by this idea of farmer succession we don't say oh well you're you can't be a doctor your dad's not a doctor why do we say you can't be a farmer if That's not a pharma. It's ridiculous. Anybody can be a farmer, I think. You just need a certain set of skills. My husband comes from a very urban background with no farming experience. And he's the most wonderful stockman. Yeah, he's gentle and he's got empathy. He's just lovely. And I think it's about showing young people that this is a possibility for them. You don't have to have a huge amount of capital. You could rent a farm. You could come into it by many different ways and maybe in a different place, maybe in a different country, but it's a possibility for you. And I think, as you say, there's so much darkness in the world and horror, but this is something that can give real meaning to people's lives and is so hopeful.
Speaker #2
It is.
Speaker #0
It's so good. Why doesn't everybody want to be a farmer? Right,
Speaker #2
yeah, I get you, exactly. And actually, large parts of the school system and education within farming, to some degree, sometimes to a large degree, stands in the way. Because it's reductionist, it reduces everything, all the joy and the happiness to... to numbers that even those numbers aren't very relevant if you actually want to achieve ecosystem vitalization. So then it comes down, it's just a job. You could just, you know, it's nothing different from being employed by a big food retailer somewhere. You're just another link in the chain and you're not attached to the farming and to the animals and to the nature. So we have to take that back.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I always say that I want to farm like my granddad did. You know, he had a very rich, very seasonal life. And his animals would go away in the winter to the lowlands. And he would have less work to do on the farm. And then he would just, it was a very, he would have some sheep. And it was all very simple. And then the cows would come back in the summer. And it was kind of... you Very low input, very little money, but actually his richness was in the amount of food he could grow for himself.
Speaker #2
You're working with a different currency, right? Yeah,
Speaker #0
and his currency was not being dependent on other people. You know, fiercely independent. And I see that that's a really exciting thing.
Speaker #2
Sometimes I have a little bit of problems with independency. I've read talk about codependency because you really wanted to do this together with other people. Because like your customers or mine, because I sell my projects the same way you do. And when we started, we thought that we would have locally because we really want to sell our meat locally. Because otherwise people living far away, friends of ours, you know, hours away, they would like to buy from us. and I tell him, well, it's That's all very nice, but we have a good friend in your area. Use your source and meet there instead. So we were a little bit hesitant. Will we be able to sell everything? So we started talking to people, and we had a mail list, and we put it out. And in two days, everything was sold. Yeah. So there was an urge. There was a demand much higher than we could experience because people really valued... Knowing that when I consume this meat together with friends at dinner, I am a part of vitalizing the landscape. I can't say that they would put it in just those words, but I'm quite sure that that's the sentiment that they feel. So they become a part of our codependency. So they actually become a part of my farm, if you like.
Speaker #0
Well, they become part of our wider ecosystem, don't they? Our social landscape. And then we touch out much further into the community than we could as individuals. I love it. We have sheep and there are many different colors. So they range from black to white, but through all of the colors of browns and golds. And they're very beautiful. we um We shear them off and we sell the wool and we sell the sheepskins when the sheep are slaughtered. And people buy them and they're expensive. And people value the fact that they're organic, they're regenerative, they're beautiful. And they're becoming something that's going to be really important in their home. It's like a piece of software machine in their home. and they put their babies on them because it's a lovely organic thing to put your small baby on. What is more precious than a thing that you put a baby on? And this just, the richness that you get from that is enormous, I think.
Speaker #2
Yeah. And would you say that your customers, as they interact with you, they buy your meat, your skin, the wool, do they feel, would you think that they feel that they... also take on responsibility for the landscape when doing so.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. The number of people, since we've used social media and blogs to engage people, so we never advertise meat, we just do it through social media. Yeah, yeah. You know, we're just like, oh, we've got some meat coming.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And it'll be gone.
Speaker #2
That's the same story for me. Exactly. You hear this from so many different places in the world. And this, that, it's not just you and me. It's a lot of other people. This is quite a strong message. That our people around us actually want something else. And those people who actually are not saying it out loud that they want that, I'm quite sure it's because they are not aware that this is a possibility. So this is where we have work to do.
Speaker #1
Just a really quick pause from this awesome conversation to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, Soil Capital. Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health or biodiversity. If you'd like to learn more about them, I will leave a link in the description of this episode.
Speaker #0
I think we have a lot of work to do around communication. And I think when you can tell that story about, I think both our cases, you know, we're doing a lot for nature conservation by using our grazing animals to deliver for biodiversity. And that story is a beautiful thing, isn't it? Your cow or your sheep has lived a wild, natural life in a nature-rich place. And its presence is good for nature recovery.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's a lovely story.
Speaker #2
A lot of times when I teach holistic management of regenerative agriculture, we talk about the grazing animals as tools for regenerating the ecosystem. Now, a lot of people, they kind of hesitate when I say tool about my friend, the cow. But when I explain that, I'm a tool too. We're all just tools together to make about the positive change. Now we're getting into this debate whether should we have production areas or should we have nature? Because that's what society tells us that we have to choose. And what we say all the time is that we can actually use domesticated cattle as a proxy for the mega herbivores that were around before we, in our poor wisdom, killed off most of them. We had them, didn't we? Yeah. So now that critical component of a well-functioning ecosystem is to a large degree gone. So we have to take on the responsibility to replace that component with the domesticated animals and us playing sort of the carnivores that keep the cattle in place and move them around. And when I explain this to people, we are trying to mimic what evolution actually uh invented over millions of years people can understand that this is probably a good idea i think i get quite hung up when people talk about the nature
Speaker #0
or production right like it's a dichotomy you can't have both and i and then when people talk about nature and rewilding i get quite Peace. I think it's quite contentious. I think there is a continuum from conventional agriculture to full rewilding, full natural processes. And I think that regenerative agriculture sits in that place along that continuum and different farms sit in different places. I think I'm quite close. My cows have run on a very, very extensive system and they have a lot of autonomy to decide where they want to go. but a fully rewilded system. we have a big fashion in England at the moment for people to, everybody who's got a lot of money, which is quite a few people, wants bison at the moment. They're like the trendy thing of the moment. So there's a big market for bison. And people are putting bison into woodlands. But bison don't like people particularly. They're not great with public access. And then... They've not been in our system for a long time and every cow, every bovine in England has to be tested regularly for bovine tuberculosis. And they really don't like that. And so you think, well, I can see that having these animals, you know, they're really a sort of conspicuous megafauna, aren't they? They're like,
Speaker #2
wow.
Speaker #0
But...
Speaker #2
It's a very attractive thought, isn't it? That you can rewild, bring back those mega herbivores that are still around and just put them into our system and everything just will sort of...
Speaker #0
itself out without thinking about the framework right of legislation like right tb testing and yeah yeah and there is a little bit of infrastructure in the way as well yeah highways cities yeah cities people yeah and you think well the a domestic cow probably isn't as good at that ecosystem engineering yeah but she's probably pretty good
Speaker #2
If you give them a chance. Yeah, they act within the ecosystem if they get the possibility to do so. Very similar to what a bison would do.
Speaker #0
Yeah, but not as kind of attractive for people. No, no. And then that's about humans wanting to have their impact on the system.
Speaker #2
It's not as David Attenborough-ish.
Speaker #0
No. And it's maybe not as cool, but I do think that we should be um People take the horns off cattle now, don't they? If cows have horns, they'll take the horns off. But actually, that makes them a much better ecosystem engineer, getting in and rubbing on trees and generally having a bit of a good time.
Speaker #2
So I have a hornless breed, naturally hornless.
Speaker #0
And so that's a choice,
Speaker #2
isn't it? Yeah. It's an old heritage breed. They function very well in our landscape. And I just, the landscape. tells me that these are the ones that we want. So it's fine with us there.
Speaker #0
I think that often there are breeds of animal that are indigenous to a place, and they grew up there because of the conditions there.
Speaker #2
And they are molded by the conditions and vice versa.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I think it's amazing that those breeds have probably got traits that will be useful for us in the future, particularly within regenerative systems. Yeah, yeah. It would be great if we could have some kind of way of supporting that.
Speaker #2
And this is another thing I think about when coming back to the hope thing. I'm continuously fascinated by the competences and the intelligence that the cows and the rest of the nature also has. And I've seen so many examples of us. We're like Socrates. I'm a little bit smarter than the other ones because I know that I don't know anything. There is so much more to know. And you could be like feeling very frustrated because I know so little. I flip it over. I'm just fascinated. It's great there is so much that we don't know, which is intrinsic in nature. Nature, it's evolved over time. And so one thing that actually is a part of also bringing hope is that we, instead of thinking engineering, we can trust that nature actually have the solutions already. Just try to, as much as we can, to observe and, you know, without all the... School knowledge that stands in the way to observe and then try to take our part to let nature work as close to evolution as made it as possible.
Speaker #0
I think
Speaker #2
I tried to do that on a daily basis. And it feels like it's strong feeling that this is probably most probably the best thing that I can do for myself and for my, you know, my family and everybody else around.
Speaker #0
I think that business, I find myself wanting to go in and intervene with things.
Speaker #3
Yeah,
Speaker #2
you have to struggle that all the time, don't you?
Speaker #0
And I really struggle because it's almost like I have to justify why I'm the farmer. Because actually nature and most often my livestock, they don't need me. You know, they'd be perfectly fine without me, thank you. It's just that I kind of, I fill in the forms and generally buy bits and pieces for them. And that it is that wonder of how much nature can thrive if you just give it the opportunity and that livestock can as well.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker #0
That's beautiful.
Speaker #2
So when we feel so much joy and hope in what we're doing on a daily basis, all we want, not all we want, but what we really would like to have happen is to bring it to as many other people as possible. Right?
Speaker #0
Yep.
Speaker #2
And that's the reason for why I am an EARA farmer, I would say. Because I think that this platform might be the most powerful thing I've seen.
Speaker #0
so far in order to propagate this i think um for me i i live in a very tight-knit farming community uh that's very insular um so it's a very hilly region in an otherwise super productive area so it sort of sits in a sea of dairy farming um and
Speaker #2
so you're the other one out there yeah yeah in my swamp Ha
Speaker #0
It's very, very wet. So we're doing a lot of land management for flooding and water quality and quantity to stop downstream flooding. And we're really keen on that. And we work with a farm cluster and we do lots of good things. But it all felt very inward looking. So we didn't feel that we were... Leaving Europe was incredibly... negative for me i felt the whole brexit vote felt very difficult it felt like a closing down of opportunity yeah and then what we were doing around the land management feels incredibly hopeful and there's lots of good things around species recovery and landscape scale working and working with other farmers but um but it was difficult to see how that could scale out right And Iyara seemed to me to be a way of learning from completely new people you know i i was thrilled when i heard that you graze your cows in a forest in a forest in england nobody would put cows in a forest but actually not so many in southern sweden either but of course if you were a cow what could be a better place to live in than a than a woodland with shade and and dappled light and shelter how fantastic and and so It's like every time I go onto a call with the ER or I read something, I pick up something every time. And it's that opening out and that blossoming of hearing new ideas from people that have a completely different perspective, that are farming in a completely different way. And from just this amazing group of people on the OT, the operating team. Just incredible, you know, this massive enthusiasm and drive. And energy. And energy. And I just look at them and just say, whew, you know, they're so inspiring. And they make so many things happen for us farmers.
Speaker #2
They are very dear to us.
Speaker #0
Very dear to us indeed. And I find it constantly invigorating being part of IARA, actually.
Speaker #2
Yeah, me too.
Speaker #0
I think we joined at the same time. I think Yeah, I think we both appeared at the castle together. Yeah, right, yeah. And I just remember arriving at the castle, the crazy castle, with that amazing building in that incredible landscape with beavers in the valley and just thinking I'd stepped almost into like a parallel universe with these people that had come together and how...
Speaker #2
That's really amazing. I came from, you know, being part of the regenerative movement in Sweden. Before that, the first thing, hearing anything about that was Ellen Zaver's TED Talk in 2013. I watched it on YouTube in 2015 or 16. And then I started searching for... for people who are doing anything in this direction in Sweden. It took me a couple of years. I was in a divorce too, and at the same time, I met my now wife. So life was a little bit, you know, up and down at the time, or down and up. And then I got into the Swedish Redundancy Movement, and that was a strong sense of homecoming. I felt that this is the way, the place I like to be. But still... I had very little knowledge about what's going on in Europe. I heard and read a lot about what's happening in the States because there are so many proponents there that have been very verbal. You can find everything and anything on YouTube from people like Gabe Brown and Yul Saladin and all of those guys. But from Europe, not so much. Then I heard about the ARA. And now, suddenly... Hang on, there's lots of people all over Europe.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And as you say, farming in so many very different ways, but we all adhere to the same principles.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
It's all nature-based. It's all systemic. It's all...
Speaker #0
uh taking responsibility right yeah and the whole i must admit the first time i heard i i read the phrase unity and diversity i was like it sounded a bit culty to me and i was a bit like but the more i think about it it's exactly the right words because it is everybody it's such a lovely inclusive way of talking about all of the different ways and encompassing all the different ways that we can we can be on that regenerative path together and it being about a like a constant improvement a constant learning and growth and such a positive thing and i think um i love going to the castle but going to pulacaro this year that that place Actually, I thought my brain was going to melt. It was so exciting. It just had this revelation walking down the track. And I looked, this is really charming, I looked at a giant pile of dog shit. It was huge. It must have been a kilo of proper white dog poo, which you never see white dog poo anymore. And it was from where the dogs were eating bones and natural raw food. And the heaving amount of insect life and stuff that was going on. And the dogs and the chickens and the goats and just the whole ecosystem seeming to revolve around those guardian dogs. And just this incredible bond of people. to the animals to the place in this amazing like a dance it is that that was beautiful that's a nice way to put it we're all dancing together we're all just dancing together across europe and it's just fantastic yeah yeah and and this uh describing
Speaker #2
it this way it this is also the answer to why there is so much energy among people doing this because you you you don't want to stop you want to keep going
Speaker #0
You don't want to be the person that steps out, really. You never want to let anybody down. And I think, and everybody feels that way, which is why it's so important. And I find each time that new people join, it's like your family's growing bigger and bigger. And it's not like a sense of, oh, now I've got to share. It's like, wow, more people, you know, and just that momentum.
Speaker #2
There's a revelation that this is going on in so many different places. And that's also part of the answer to how we can make this grow. Because we are approaching, I sometimes get the sense that we're approaching quite quickly, like a critical mass, where this is going eventually to be the standard way. Yeah. Instead of industrial agriculture, very much dependent on different inputs in terms of artificial fertilizer and diesel and all of that. So people will, that will be on history's, what do you call it?
Speaker #0
In the history books.
Speaker #2
No, landfill. In the history books. Yeah, well, it's something that we used to do that wasn't very smart. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker #0
And I think as long as we learn from things that aren't so smart, that's okay. But I think what bothers me is the number of people that I see in my own community, the number of farmers that are so, even post-Brexit, and we haven't got farm support in the same way in England. We're losing our area payments. In fact, I think they've gone now completely. And so we've got this... very complicated agri-environment system that's quite difficult to apply for um and you have to get an agent to help you and farmers feel a sense of entitlement for that money and with that entitlement comes this this
Speaker #2
disconnect from the whole reason for being a farmer yeah and you victimize yourself yeah yeah and that's that's what happens all the time when when the rest of society... Including the academy and all the consultants say, you should listen to us. We will give you the recipe on how to handle the land. And we, as a society, we treat farmers as someone who are, they are not.
Speaker #0
up for it that they they need help from everybody yeah we yeah we victimize them yeah they become the victim yeah and then all of those those companies and and advisors become their rescuer right and they never get out of that trap and and it's like i think iara is part of our role is to shine a light and to say you know look yeah stop stop looking at this circle of despair
Speaker #2
come over here see there's another way yeah but you so when you when you take that step away instead of farming by someone else's recipe and start observing that's what we were talking about before yeah you start observing see how does the different parts of nature how do the different parts of nature interact what can i learn every time i'm there with the cows or in the forest whatever, I can learn something new. And I can't... I can change the way I do the different things that I do, where the cows, I have the cows grazing at different parts of the season, in which numbers, et cetera. I can, small changes and constantly observe. I will have the ability to better, together with my friends, the cows even have an even better positive effect. on the environment. And you can do that. You can do that in market garden. You can do that in grain production or whatever. So the key is observation, experimentation, and observation again, and seeing what you actually can do. And then you take on responsibility rather than being a victim to everything else beside you. And hopefully in the long run, you will be in a situation where we are not... independent of everything from the governments in terms of subsidies and stuff. So we talked about that also during these days a lot. So subsidies is like the farmer has to come and beg, and society gives them a little bit of money, and that's subsidy. We are so nice to you farmers. Flip it over. Farmers, we deliver services. It's just natural that we should be remunerated.
Speaker #1
If you enjoy listening to the Deep Seat Podcast, please, please support me and my work. You can do that in just five seconds by just clicking on the like and the subscribe button just down here at the bottom of your screen. And if you want to go a small extra step, you can also leave us a message in the comment section or ask us a question. We'll make sure to get back to you with an answer as soon as possible. Thank you so much in advance. Much love. And let's get back to the end of this conversation.
Speaker #0
In England, there's a lot of issues around farmers feel that they're dictated to through science and evidence. But they don't understand the science and evidence because it's put in a language and in a way that's just impenetrable to them. And I think that...
Speaker #2
And it's not relevant either. It's not relevant, yeah. Because it's theoretical, given certain conditions, that actually it's really hard to find the place where those exact conditions apply. Then it's not really relevant anymore. So the experts regarding what actually works in terms of regeneration on a specific farm, that's the farmer on site. And obviously the farmer can use the reductionist research as a tool, as another tool in the improvement of ecosystem processes.
Speaker #0
But for me, it's really important that the value of science can be fantastic. There's some things, you know, climate change, irrefutable. you know that's just it is happening yeah oh but but you can you need to make useful science into a language that farmers can understand and then can apply to their own farm but also making it so that observation is something that's respected you know but to observe you need to get off your tractor or off your pod bike and you need to stand in silence on your land yeah and listen and smell yeah hear properly and watch.
Speaker #2
And try to understand the whole rather than separate pieces. And this is also something that's extremely important in terms of how we use science and the tools of science when we study complex systems like ecosystems or the human body or social organizations, whatever. So the reductionist way of doing science, it's the tool that's not really applicable when you're trying to understand how it works. complex system works. So we need to, instead of studying details in complex systems, we need to study the system as a whole and to take to together all the different pieces and compare the regenerative agricultural system to conventional. Not a detail from each with each other, but the whole system. And this way of doing science, so far, at least in Sweden, most scientists, they are quite uncomfortable because they feel that they are asked to step out of their comfort zone. into another part of science that they don't have the top knowledge within. So they're uncomfortable. But I think I get the sense that also they are moving, not fast enough, but a little bit anyway, in that direction, that they do understand that it doesn't work to look at just a little bit of details. They have to look at the whole. I heard a conversation with, it was on a John Kempf podcast with an American woman, I don't remember her name now. And she was talking a lot about this, that we have to look at systems. Because it's no point in looking at the different parts of the system. By doing that, there's no chance that you can understand how the complex system as a whole works.
Speaker #0
And to think that we... The complexity is the beauty and we will make mistakes and that's all right. You know, as a farmer quite often I'll try something new and it fails and that's fine. You know, as long as you learn from it and you know what you did and you can then think it through and go, oh, I see. Okay, I shouldn't have done that. That's okay.
Speaker #2
And it's very likely that the mistakes that you... you make they aren't you know like uh uh the risk that the you that the system will topple topple over yeah no because you're constant constantly observing so so when you're doing that you will pick up And you're monitoring, you're able to control before things get worse. And then you will also, when it goes in the direction you don't want, you can replan.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And then, you know, the feedback loop goes around and around.
Speaker #0
And I think that an understanding that it's okay to try something new. Yeah. And then if that doesn't work, you can try something else. And that's how. Yeah, human evolution must have worked like that. Yeah,
Speaker #2
yeah. I have to share one example. I had, you know, when I started to graze all of those peatland, drained peatland that I talked about before, that hadn't been grazed for 20, 25 years, more reeds than grass. Did we talk about this? Yeah. Yeah, I can share it again. We haven't told all these people. Because this was, I had the idea that high animal impact, would be the solution because they will just trample down all the reeds. Yeah, and I was quite confident in my hybris, you know, theoretical scientist thinking this out. Yeah, and the result was the opposite. Less grass and more reeds. Yeah, yeah. And I was, you know, I felt... I felt like I tricked myself into this. And I thought, what am I going to do now? So I talked to this guy. He has no scientific training at all, but he has much more experience with running cattle than me, both on different kinds of lands, including drained peatland. So he said that, well, in my experience, what worked with not high animal impact, quite uh uh quite low impact for a short period of time. And then let the system rest and let them come back. And I thought about it a long time. I thought, hang on, that might work. So the critical thing here is that if you have the grasses that are there, which actually have co-evolved with the grazers, In order for them to be able to compete with the reeds, they need to be handled with care in the beginning. Now, when they have really picked up energy and have had their resting periods and they can grow vigorously, then you can also raise them with a high impact. But not when they are really starting. off. So what I did was that I picked up that idea but I also thought okay so these reeds they were like big bushes so I thought I need us need to do something more so I decided to just after having the animals grazing there, low animal impact just short time, I took out the tractor and I cut the reed like bunches. at like 25, 30 centimeters. And I thought, okay, so the regrown grass wouldn't be affected. And then when I came back like three or four weeks later, I could see the regrowth from the grass, but not from the reeds. So already after a few weeks, the grass was taking over. And I almost started to cry. Because I saw with my observation, my understanding, don't just be a theoretical scientist with hybrids. And we're talking to my very good friend who is not a scientist, but could get me down to earth. I actually found, this is actually working. So now I've done it in other places as well. And yeah. and it seems to actually be working like so i did what so this summer when we bail hay on place like that i i have like so much better hay quality than i ever had for in the few years that i've been doing that there i uh i've got a similar story we we have a a
Speaker #0
lot of european gorse which is non-native super invasive uh goose gorse so i i It's a very spiky plant. Ah,
Speaker #2
it's a plant.
Speaker #0
It's a huge plant. It'll grow up to sort of two meters high, smothers everything out, and nothing will graze it.
Speaker #2
What is it, like a thistle or no?
Speaker #0
Oh, it's like a shrub.
Speaker #2
Right, okay. A woody shrub. It's a woody shrub, all right.
Speaker #0
And it loves being burnt. So the more my dad... my dad my bless him he would go out regularly set fire to it which was very exciting you get like meters of flame going everywhere uh but then it the the seed uh falls onto the bare ash and it's the first thing to germinate so actually it's fire um you know it loves a bit of fire so it's like fire dependent yeah it's fire dependent and and it's just out competing all of your native. sort of grasses and flowers yeah and we my dad said well you know this would be good for this it was an area by a by a river he said it would be good for it to be woodland yeah so i'm going to burn the gorse down yeah and plant trees right so engineering yeah man dominates like nature so off you went and then we took over the my husband and i took over the farm and i went right I'm going to burn the gorse and he said don't be ridiculous you know that's just making it worse is the gorse getting any less I said no it's not getting any less he's just just leave it yeah and we had a stand of birch trees yeah and uh there was the from the predominant wind was blowing the seed into the gorse yeah and then the little trees were beginning to grow up and then as the birch trees grew up through because nobody was burning the gorse off all the time and killing all the baby trees right all of the gauze is it doesn't like being in the shade right and so all the gauze is getting shaded out and the birch trees are growing and the beautiful natural flora is returning underneath it's like oh yeah yeah just be humble yeah leave it alone yeah and let nature do what nature needs to do yeah and be patient right so i think you know observation, learning, but also having My husband and I don't set the phone to him.
Speaker #2
And what you're talking about is a disturbance regime. And that's quite a good way of thinking, because that makes you understand that nature isn't static. It's dynamic. It's disturbance continuously. And with a specific type of disturbance regime, you will have a certain type of development. and starting. Rather than succession, you will have a state when transition that goes back and forth a little bit. But when you keep up the disturbance regime and understanding how to do that, you will be able to keep a dynamic going on. It's not a static thing. It's a dynamic continuously going on.
Speaker #0
And I think it comes back to joy. You know, you get from that holding back and observing, you get that, you know, now I go down and I stand and I look at my little trees growing that have cost me nothing. And they're just this amazing habitat. And it's a sense of joy. And it is that wonder in what nature can do. Yeah,
Speaker #2
there are so many examples of this. that there are a lot of people who are who have a lot of trouble with thistles, nettles, and duck. Their grazing areas are full of that. They think up all of these mechanical engineering solutions to reduce those problems. What I hear from, what I feel myself, what I can see myself, and what I hear from a lot of people that do regenerative grazing is that we don't worry about that. that it sorts itself out yeah when when you when you adapt to grazing and it's uh uh and you let the the grasses and the the forbs that evolved with the grazing animals in symbiosis when you let it function the way evolution made it function it will sort itself out and the thistles and the the doc anyway. They are... they are also signaling to you that something is wrong here.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
So.
Speaker #0
Yeah, listen to what you're being told. Yeah. And I think, I know that for me, docks are where I've got compaction.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
But I don't want to get rid of them because there's nothing more beautiful than a flock of goldfinches. feeding on dock seed in the autumn it's a beautiful thing yeah yeah so you know a few docks is a small price yeah there's room for a little bit of that too yeah and this is another interesting thing when we talk about you know all these uh my
Speaker #2
old colleagues from university nature conservationist people uh one thought as you know as biologists is that I have all these, you know, friends from university who started biology, who now works in nature conservation. In courses at university, they were told, you know, together with me, that nature is dynamic. Everything changes, we have the disturbance regimes, all of that. And now a lot of those people... those people. Those people, not us. Well, my friends, they were working, you know, with nature conservation in some kind of government place. And they seem to have completely forgotten about the dynamics of nature, which they have studied at university. And they are working with nature conservation. I have a problem with that word. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't conserve a state.
Speaker #0
And it's like you can bring it to that. a good state or a favorable state, when we call it in England, but not thinking that that isn't an amazing dynamic thing. Yeah,
Speaker #2
that's the key.
Speaker #0
And you're not going to get it there and it's going to somehow stay there. Yeah. Like, ta-da You know, it's not something that needs constant...
Speaker #2
So that's not... We were talking about conventional farming. A lot of problems arise when you think you can engineer nature. That nature conservation idea, that's also a kind of engineering idea. I want to keep all these. A lot of times it's focused on a few indicator species. I want to keep those. So you're looking at the details, you're missing the whole. How did the habitat for these species come about? That's the question you constantly should ask yourself when you're working with that. And there is a disturbance regime that made this possible. So that's what you have to find out. What is that? And then try to not stand in the way for that. And a lot of times in Sweden and a lot of many other places, it's so very many times linked to grazing animals.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
All over the place.
Speaker #0
We've got a beautiful butterfly, the marsh fritillary butterfly. And it is on our wet, peaty Maya systems. But the marsh fertility butterfly isn't very good at flying. So it's not very good.
Speaker #2
It's too bad if you're a butterfly.
Speaker #0
It's really bad. You're a butterfly living in a rainy swamp. Aye.
Speaker #2
And you can't fly.
Speaker #0
They're not very good at flying. And everything tries to, it's got a parasitic wasp. And so it's no good managing small patches. so a group of us Farmers have come together as a farm cluster to manage for the marsh fertility butterfly. We're all passionate about it because when it flies, it's orange and brown, and it's like a flying stained glass window. It's the most beautiful little thing. I don't think we have that one. Oh, it's so good. We're very proud of it.
Speaker #2
It's like endangered?
Speaker #0
Oh, super endangered. and we have a We have a tiny cup that came from a charity shop and we have an organisation that are really interested in the butterflies. And they come out and they walk a transect on everybody's farms. And then we compete for this rubbish little cup every year. And it's the biggest competition, you know, and it's always... But what it means is we're all tied into this thing and looking after the metapopulation. there's competition there's community and but some years somebody will have a huge population and the next year they'll have nothing and that's why it's important to look at the whole dynamic habitat yeah yeah so i have to ask so all these nature conservationist people that come around how
Speaker #2
do they interact with you are they like so because there are so many cases where people Those people, sorry, they have come around and say, okay, we can't let farmers handle this because they don't know anything about that butterfly. And then they would like to put, you know, all these restrictions on what you can and can't do. And a lot of times the result is you lose those endangered species.
Speaker #0
I think that's very true in the past. Yeah. But I think that... our nature conservation agencies in in england we've got amazing environmental ngos like butterfly conservation and the staff that they employ are very uh very balanced on their understanding of the role of farmers and see their value yeah and i would say that it's all down to the quality of that individual advisor yeah yeah that makes or breaks a project yeah and you And also the longevity that they're in place, so that they've got a decent amount of time and funding, so they've got enough time to build relationships with people to sort out the species that needs the sorting.
Speaker #2
Yeah, I think we're a little bit behind in Sweden in that sense. And a lot of things are happening. I worked at a conference three years ago, where we, me and a few others, within the regenerative movement we were invited to talk about how we work with with grazing uh and how the the idea was that let's see how we can can work together better how they can use us as a resource in their nature conservation work lack of better word um so and it's i went there with a sense that okay they're probably gonna tell me now you can't graze the way it's Because a lot of times they have this idea that they have to degenerate the system in order for these poor competitive species to thrive. And that's completely contradictory to what I want to do. I want a vibrant system which actually we know can keep much more biodiversity in total numbers of species. So I was expecting opposition. But I was surprised that... The way we approached understanding of ecosystem processes, they didn't protest, but they have a conflict within them. They do understand the importance of well-functioning ecosystem processes, but at the same time, they have sort of decided that these few poor competitive species are proxies for total biodiversity. you It's very confusing for them. So when they're making a plan for how to handle a nature reserve somewhere, far too many times it actually suggests to do degenerative grazing.
Speaker #0
yeah and i think not seeing um that nature nature conservation can sit alongside farm systems and be completely integrated in yeah and i think so that's why i think you get this
Speaker #2
dichotomy with farming and nature yeah yeah farming and rewilding as well yeah you know i think it's all part of the same thing yeah and yeah and what i was going to say is that the the nature conservationist at this conference they said some one thing that that stuck in my mind and was really a key to understand for me anyway how we could better work together because they described what they were doing on a daily basis that was managing small stamps of land dispersed in a sea of green that they have no possibility to handle or to work with at all. And actually, one of them said, actually, is this all we want to do really work with these small stamps? No, we want something more. And who might be the best people for us to make that happen? That's actually the the land stewards out there, the farmers. So if we can come together from our different perspectives, it can become quite powerful. So I spend some time trying to get, and we will have a conference with our Swedish NGO, a yearly annual meeting, where we're actually talking about these things. How can we bring these two?
Speaker #0
two attitudes these two two views together we've had a really successful thing in england which is catchment sensitive farming right and it's about we have massive problems with water pollution from from intensive dairy in particular but from intensive cattle systems yeah and catchment sensitive farming employed people that understand about the water environment but also have a very strong background in farming yeah and so they were going in Thank you. To help farmers with a problem. And then on the back of that.
Speaker #2
The ones causing the pollution.
Speaker #0
The ones causing the pollution, but to come up with solutions with them on their farm. Right. To make it better. Yeah. And then, so these were really intensive. These are really intensive farmers.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And then they were going, and at the same time, whilst you're thinking about catchment sensitive farming, what about all these other things you could do for nature as well?
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And because they were very trusted. And they were very agricultural focused. They were almost giving legitimacy for the farmers to go, oh, I could think about nature conservation as well. And that was, I think it's an incredibly powerful model for how you get into all of that bright green sea of ground. That poor little patches of nature sit in a patchwork. It's completely unsustainable to manage them that way. So
Speaker #2
In some way managed to get the farmers to understand that this is something that they could gain from. What was the key?
Speaker #0
I think there's something about farmers letting go a little bit, that they don't have to manage every bit of land right up to the edge of a nature reserve. Celebrating good... You know, when they do great things, celebrating what they're doing, celebrating their investment and their time. I do think that the role of advice and helping people on that journey is really important. But I think farmers being part of the solution rather than being part of the problem is a massive part of that transition.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and it's very important the way you approach a farmer. at that time, isn't it? If you go there with the sense that this is a polluter that I have to force to stop, or you approach them as part of the solution instead. Yeah. A very different situation to meet someone.
Speaker #0
I mean, you're dealing with most of the problems with the environment. People, not, I come from people. They don't come from anywhere else. And it's our behavior that has such an impact. Woo, I'm done. Yeah.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

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Description

This is not another conversation about agricultural policy, carbon markets, subsidies or food system bureaucracy.

It is a deeply human conversation about regenerative farming, biodiversity, grazing animals, soil health, ecosystem restoration, community, belonging… and joy.

At the heart of the conversation is a powerful idea: farmers are not simply producers trapped inside industrial systems. They are observers, experimenters and caretakers of living ecosystems.

It is hopeful without being naïve.

A conversation about farming, yes — but also about how humans might find their way back to meaning, resilience and connection in an increasingly fractured world.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
the primal thing that drives me in my farming system and that's joy that the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer i get the chills what are you talking about farming like that welcome
Speaker #1
back to the deep seed and thank you so much for tuning in today we have a wonderful wonderful conversation between two regenerative farmers so naomi from the uk and Gunnar from Sweden. Absolutely love this conversation because they are both so passionate and so in love with their job and their lifestyle and the way they're farming in harmony with nature and with animals. We spent a lot of time talking about how much better regenerative agriculture is from a technical perspective, ecological perspective and even economical, right? And these are all super important. But I feel like we're not talking enough about how much more... Nourishing for the soul regenerative farming is. And that's huge, right? Because we know that a majority of farmers are going to be retiring in the next 10 years. And we need millions and millions of young people coming to farming. But the problem is that young people, myself included, are not interested in the old conventional extractive model of agriculture. We're not interested in spending our days destroying ecosystems, spraying chemicals to kill life. And all of that, right? So we need a version, a vision for agriculture that is exciting for young people, that is fun, that is desirable. And I really think that regenerative agriculture offers just that. I love this conversation because it's filled with joy and with hope. And God knows we need a little dose of joy and hope right now. This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. I'm your host, Raphael. And this is the Deep Seat Podcast.
Speaker #0
So, let's talk about joy.
Speaker #2
Yeah, go ahead Naomi.
Speaker #0
So, the things that I've taken away from the last two days here in Brussels is that we've talked about lots of systemic issues and the need for funding and the need for verification and all sorts of things. Well, what we've not talked about is the primal thing that drives me in my farming system. And that's joy, the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer after a life of working off the farm as an ecologist. And just how incredible it is to have the time and the space to interact with my animals and my landscape and then sell my products to people. And just how incredible that is.
Speaker #2
as a process and what a luxury and i wondered if you could tell me about what that's like for you that resonates to me a lot i get the chills when you talk about farming like that i'm a bit envious too because i i don't don't do it full time i i would love to but still you know i spend a lot of time uh teaching and and and consulting and which is also extremely rewarding because you can see the lights appearing in people's eyes. Well, it's not that I bring them a gospel. It's more like I help them to open the rise for what they really have in front of them in their very own place, so they can get the same sense of joy that you're talking about. Because I have to say, that's what drives me too. Whenever I'm feeling a little bit, you know, not so comfortable, stressed out, the very best thing is to go to my cows and hang out with them for a while because they just ooze out well-being. What's the opposite to being stressed?
Speaker #0
Being chilled, I suppose. I find it really interesting. It's soothing. Very soothing. Very, very good for your soul. I find it really interesting that if I go to work with my cows, and I'm stressed, and I'm holding tension, they won't have it. They don't want to interact with me. They don't want me there, because I'm not... in a positive space this is true they'll give you the eye yeah they give you the side eye come back come back when you calm down come back when you've sorted your stuff out and then i'll be ready and that different and realizing that if you're like that and that you have that impact on animals you must have that impact on people as well yeah and to realize that you are they they're just mirror bring back your behavior yeah and and it's it's so humbling to be put in your place by a cow oh yes it's a beautiful thing and and i think that i look at the the richness that they give me it's much more than being a farmer in a place um i i think that um at christmas time i live in a small village and out of the people in our village you Maybe half of them have bought meat from us that was for their Christmas meal.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker #0
And that just, it gives me such a sense of rootedness within my community that somebody chooses for probably one of the most important celebratory meals for their year that they want something from my farm.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's great.
Speaker #0
How many times do you have to be reassured that you have a place and a position in your community? And I think so many farmers feel disconnected from their place and from their community and they don't feel valued. And that must be terrible.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Absolutely terrible.
Speaker #2
A lot of this has to do with a sense of coherence and a sense of belonging. Where I live, it's the place where I grew up. I was two years old when my... My parents bought the farm and we moved there. I don't remember anything before that. And I lived away from when I was about 20. I lived away for 30 years. I never felt at home anywhere else. And then a few years ago, five years ago, I moved back. And I feel that now I own land there. That land doesn't belong to me, I belong to the land. And it's a very strong feeling, it's a very positive feeling. So I feel that I am part of this part of the world. I'm integrated and it's an enormous feeling. And also having the possibility to work with the landscape, together with my friends, the cows, vitalizing the system. It's extremely joyful. And when I think about that, and I also know from knowing the numbers as a scientist, I'm an ecologist like you, we have the numbers that we heal. We do heal the system. We sequester carbon. We improve water holding capacity, nutrient holding capacity. We improve nutrient mineral cycling, water cycle, all of that. This is extremely hopeful.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and I think a lot about young people detached from the basis of our lives, ecosystems, in despair about climate change and war and strange people ruling the world. I would really be wanting to share with them more what we experience on a daily basis.
Speaker #0
I find it interesting. I'm a third generation. We're tenants on our farm, but we don't have children. And so when we go, somebody else will take on the tenancy. And I see myself as a long line of, part of a long line of farmers that have lived there and have worked the land. And I'll do my bit and then I'll die and I'll be gone. And then somebody else will come along and they'll take on the, you know, the. looking after the place and the biodiversity and and there's something incredibly comforting about the idea of that legacy of what you've done and and you're a guardian for the time you're there and i don't i've always been fascinated by this idea of farmer succession we don't say oh well you're you can't be a doctor your dad's not a doctor why do we say you can't be a farmer if That's not a pharma. It's ridiculous. Anybody can be a farmer, I think. You just need a certain set of skills. My husband comes from a very urban background with no farming experience. And he's the most wonderful stockman. Yeah, he's gentle and he's got empathy. He's just lovely. And I think it's about showing young people that this is a possibility for them. You don't have to have a huge amount of capital. You could rent a farm. You could come into it by many different ways and maybe in a different place, maybe in a different country, but it's a possibility for you. And I think, as you say, there's so much darkness in the world and horror, but this is something that can give real meaning to people's lives and is so hopeful.
Speaker #2
It is.
Speaker #0
It's so good. Why doesn't everybody want to be a farmer? Right,
Speaker #2
yeah, I get you, exactly. And actually, large parts of the school system and education within farming, to some degree, sometimes to a large degree, stands in the way. Because it's reductionist, it reduces everything, all the joy and the happiness to... to numbers that even those numbers aren't very relevant if you actually want to achieve ecosystem vitalization. So then it comes down, it's just a job. You could just, you know, it's nothing different from being employed by a big food retailer somewhere. You're just another link in the chain and you're not attached to the farming and to the animals and to the nature. So we have to take that back.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I always say that I want to farm like my granddad did. You know, he had a very rich, very seasonal life. And his animals would go away in the winter to the lowlands. And he would have less work to do on the farm. And then he would just, it was a very, he would have some sheep. And it was all very simple. And then the cows would come back in the summer. And it was kind of... you Very low input, very little money, but actually his richness was in the amount of food he could grow for himself.
Speaker #2
You're working with a different currency, right? Yeah,
Speaker #0
and his currency was not being dependent on other people. You know, fiercely independent. And I see that that's a really exciting thing.
Speaker #2
Sometimes I have a little bit of problems with independency. I've read talk about codependency because you really wanted to do this together with other people. Because like your customers or mine, because I sell my projects the same way you do. And when we started, we thought that we would have locally because we really want to sell our meat locally. Because otherwise people living far away, friends of ours, you know, hours away, they would like to buy from us. and I tell him, well, it's That's all very nice, but we have a good friend in your area. Use your source and meet there instead. So we were a little bit hesitant. Will we be able to sell everything? So we started talking to people, and we had a mail list, and we put it out. And in two days, everything was sold. Yeah. So there was an urge. There was a demand much higher than we could experience because people really valued... Knowing that when I consume this meat together with friends at dinner, I am a part of vitalizing the landscape. I can't say that they would put it in just those words, but I'm quite sure that that's the sentiment that they feel. So they become a part of our codependency. So they actually become a part of my farm, if you like.
Speaker #0
Well, they become part of our wider ecosystem, don't they? Our social landscape. And then we touch out much further into the community than we could as individuals. I love it. We have sheep and there are many different colors. So they range from black to white, but through all of the colors of browns and golds. And they're very beautiful. we um We shear them off and we sell the wool and we sell the sheepskins when the sheep are slaughtered. And people buy them and they're expensive. And people value the fact that they're organic, they're regenerative, they're beautiful. And they're becoming something that's going to be really important in their home. It's like a piece of software machine in their home. and they put their babies on them because it's a lovely organic thing to put your small baby on. What is more precious than a thing that you put a baby on? And this just, the richness that you get from that is enormous, I think.
Speaker #2
Yeah. And would you say that your customers, as they interact with you, they buy your meat, your skin, the wool, do they feel, would you think that they feel that they... also take on responsibility for the landscape when doing so.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. The number of people, since we've used social media and blogs to engage people, so we never advertise meat, we just do it through social media. Yeah, yeah. You know, we're just like, oh, we've got some meat coming.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And it'll be gone.
Speaker #2
That's the same story for me. Exactly. You hear this from so many different places in the world. And this, that, it's not just you and me. It's a lot of other people. This is quite a strong message. That our people around us actually want something else. And those people who actually are not saying it out loud that they want that, I'm quite sure it's because they are not aware that this is a possibility. So this is where we have work to do.
Speaker #1
Just a really quick pause from this awesome conversation to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, Soil Capital. Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health or biodiversity. If you'd like to learn more about them, I will leave a link in the description of this episode.
Speaker #0
I think we have a lot of work to do around communication. And I think when you can tell that story about, I think both our cases, you know, we're doing a lot for nature conservation by using our grazing animals to deliver for biodiversity. And that story is a beautiful thing, isn't it? Your cow or your sheep has lived a wild, natural life in a nature-rich place. And its presence is good for nature recovery.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's a lovely story.
Speaker #2
A lot of times when I teach holistic management of regenerative agriculture, we talk about the grazing animals as tools for regenerating the ecosystem. Now, a lot of people, they kind of hesitate when I say tool about my friend, the cow. But when I explain that, I'm a tool too. We're all just tools together to make about the positive change. Now we're getting into this debate whether should we have production areas or should we have nature? Because that's what society tells us that we have to choose. And what we say all the time is that we can actually use domesticated cattle as a proxy for the mega herbivores that were around before we, in our poor wisdom, killed off most of them. We had them, didn't we? Yeah. So now that critical component of a well-functioning ecosystem is to a large degree gone. So we have to take on the responsibility to replace that component with the domesticated animals and us playing sort of the carnivores that keep the cattle in place and move them around. And when I explain this to people, we are trying to mimic what evolution actually uh invented over millions of years people can understand that this is probably a good idea i think i get quite hung up when people talk about the nature
Speaker #0
or production right like it's a dichotomy you can't have both and i and then when people talk about nature and rewilding i get quite Peace. I think it's quite contentious. I think there is a continuum from conventional agriculture to full rewilding, full natural processes. And I think that regenerative agriculture sits in that place along that continuum and different farms sit in different places. I think I'm quite close. My cows have run on a very, very extensive system and they have a lot of autonomy to decide where they want to go. but a fully rewilded system. we have a big fashion in England at the moment for people to, everybody who's got a lot of money, which is quite a few people, wants bison at the moment. They're like the trendy thing of the moment. So there's a big market for bison. And people are putting bison into woodlands. But bison don't like people particularly. They're not great with public access. And then... They've not been in our system for a long time and every cow, every bovine in England has to be tested regularly for bovine tuberculosis. And they really don't like that. And so you think, well, I can see that having these animals, you know, they're really a sort of conspicuous megafauna, aren't they? They're like,
Speaker #2
wow.
Speaker #0
But...
Speaker #2
It's a very attractive thought, isn't it? That you can rewild, bring back those mega herbivores that are still around and just put them into our system and everything just will sort of...
Speaker #0
itself out without thinking about the framework right of legislation like right tb testing and yeah yeah and there is a little bit of infrastructure in the way as well yeah highways cities yeah cities people yeah and you think well the a domestic cow probably isn't as good at that ecosystem engineering yeah but she's probably pretty good
Speaker #2
If you give them a chance. Yeah, they act within the ecosystem if they get the possibility to do so. Very similar to what a bison would do.
Speaker #0
Yeah, but not as kind of attractive for people. No, no. And then that's about humans wanting to have their impact on the system.
Speaker #2
It's not as David Attenborough-ish.
Speaker #0
No. And it's maybe not as cool, but I do think that we should be um People take the horns off cattle now, don't they? If cows have horns, they'll take the horns off. But actually, that makes them a much better ecosystem engineer, getting in and rubbing on trees and generally having a bit of a good time.
Speaker #2
So I have a hornless breed, naturally hornless.
Speaker #0
And so that's a choice,
Speaker #2
isn't it? Yeah. It's an old heritage breed. They function very well in our landscape. And I just, the landscape. tells me that these are the ones that we want. So it's fine with us there.
Speaker #0
I think that often there are breeds of animal that are indigenous to a place, and they grew up there because of the conditions there.
Speaker #2
And they are molded by the conditions and vice versa.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I think it's amazing that those breeds have probably got traits that will be useful for us in the future, particularly within regenerative systems. Yeah, yeah. It would be great if we could have some kind of way of supporting that.
Speaker #2
And this is another thing I think about when coming back to the hope thing. I'm continuously fascinated by the competences and the intelligence that the cows and the rest of the nature also has. And I've seen so many examples of us. We're like Socrates. I'm a little bit smarter than the other ones because I know that I don't know anything. There is so much more to know. And you could be like feeling very frustrated because I know so little. I flip it over. I'm just fascinated. It's great there is so much that we don't know, which is intrinsic in nature. Nature, it's evolved over time. And so one thing that actually is a part of also bringing hope is that we, instead of thinking engineering, we can trust that nature actually have the solutions already. Just try to, as much as we can, to observe and, you know, without all the... School knowledge that stands in the way to observe and then try to take our part to let nature work as close to evolution as made it as possible.
Speaker #0
I think
Speaker #2
I tried to do that on a daily basis. And it feels like it's strong feeling that this is probably most probably the best thing that I can do for myself and for my, you know, my family and everybody else around.
Speaker #0
I think that business, I find myself wanting to go in and intervene with things.
Speaker #3
Yeah,
Speaker #2
you have to struggle that all the time, don't you?
Speaker #0
And I really struggle because it's almost like I have to justify why I'm the farmer. Because actually nature and most often my livestock, they don't need me. You know, they'd be perfectly fine without me, thank you. It's just that I kind of, I fill in the forms and generally buy bits and pieces for them. And that it is that wonder of how much nature can thrive if you just give it the opportunity and that livestock can as well.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker #0
That's beautiful.
Speaker #2
So when we feel so much joy and hope in what we're doing on a daily basis, all we want, not all we want, but what we really would like to have happen is to bring it to as many other people as possible. Right?
Speaker #0
Yep.
Speaker #2
And that's the reason for why I am an EARA farmer, I would say. Because I think that this platform might be the most powerful thing I've seen.
Speaker #0
so far in order to propagate this i think um for me i i live in a very tight-knit farming community uh that's very insular um so it's a very hilly region in an otherwise super productive area so it sort of sits in a sea of dairy farming um and
Speaker #2
so you're the other one out there yeah yeah in my swamp Ha
Speaker #0
It's very, very wet. So we're doing a lot of land management for flooding and water quality and quantity to stop downstream flooding. And we're really keen on that. And we work with a farm cluster and we do lots of good things. But it all felt very inward looking. So we didn't feel that we were... Leaving Europe was incredibly... negative for me i felt the whole brexit vote felt very difficult it felt like a closing down of opportunity yeah and then what we were doing around the land management feels incredibly hopeful and there's lots of good things around species recovery and landscape scale working and working with other farmers but um but it was difficult to see how that could scale out right And Iyara seemed to me to be a way of learning from completely new people you know i i was thrilled when i heard that you graze your cows in a forest in a forest in england nobody would put cows in a forest but actually not so many in southern sweden either but of course if you were a cow what could be a better place to live in than a than a woodland with shade and and dappled light and shelter how fantastic and and so It's like every time I go onto a call with the ER or I read something, I pick up something every time. And it's that opening out and that blossoming of hearing new ideas from people that have a completely different perspective, that are farming in a completely different way. And from just this amazing group of people on the OT, the operating team. Just incredible, you know, this massive enthusiasm and drive. And energy. And energy. And I just look at them and just say, whew, you know, they're so inspiring. And they make so many things happen for us farmers.
Speaker #2
They are very dear to us.
Speaker #0
Very dear to us indeed. And I find it constantly invigorating being part of IARA, actually.
Speaker #2
Yeah, me too.
Speaker #0
I think we joined at the same time. I think Yeah, I think we both appeared at the castle together. Yeah, right, yeah. And I just remember arriving at the castle, the crazy castle, with that amazing building in that incredible landscape with beavers in the valley and just thinking I'd stepped almost into like a parallel universe with these people that had come together and how...
Speaker #2
That's really amazing. I came from, you know, being part of the regenerative movement in Sweden. Before that, the first thing, hearing anything about that was Ellen Zaver's TED Talk in 2013. I watched it on YouTube in 2015 or 16. And then I started searching for... for people who are doing anything in this direction in Sweden. It took me a couple of years. I was in a divorce too, and at the same time, I met my now wife. So life was a little bit, you know, up and down at the time, or down and up. And then I got into the Swedish Redundancy Movement, and that was a strong sense of homecoming. I felt that this is the way, the place I like to be. But still... I had very little knowledge about what's going on in Europe. I heard and read a lot about what's happening in the States because there are so many proponents there that have been very verbal. You can find everything and anything on YouTube from people like Gabe Brown and Yul Saladin and all of those guys. But from Europe, not so much. Then I heard about the ARA. And now, suddenly... Hang on, there's lots of people all over Europe.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And as you say, farming in so many very different ways, but we all adhere to the same principles.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
It's all nature-based. It's all systemic. It's all...
Speaker #0
uh taking responsibility right yeah and the whole i must admit the first time i heard i i read the phrase unity and diversity i was like it sounded a bit culty to me and i was a bit like but the more i think about it it's exactly the right words because it is everybody it's such a lovely inclusive way of talking about all of the different ways and encompassing all the different ways that we can we can be on that regenerative path together and it being about a like a constant improvement a constant learning and growth and such a positive thing and i think um i love going to the castle but going to pulacaro this year that that place Actually, I thought my brain was going to melt. It was so exciting. It just had this revelation walking down the track. And I looked, this is really charming, I looked at a giant pile of dog shit. It was huge. It must have been a kilo of proper white dog poo, which you never see white dog poo anymore. And it was from where the dogs were eating bones and natural raw food. And the heaving amount of insect life and stuff that was going on. And the dogs and the chickens and the goats and just the whole ecosystem seeming to revolve around those guardian dogs. And just this incredible bond of people. to the animals to the place in this amazing like a dance it is that that was beautiful that's a nice way to put it we're all dancing together we're all just dancing together across europe and it's just fantastic yeah yeah and and this uh describing
Speaker #2
it this way it this is also the answer to why there is so much energy among people doing this because you you you don't want to stop you want to keep going
Speaker #0
You don't want to be the person that steps out, really. You never want to let anybody down. And I think, and everybody feels that way, which is why it's so important. And I find each time that new people join, it's like your family's growing bigger and bigger. And it's not like a sense of, oh, now I've got to share. It's like, wow, more people, you know, and just that momentum.
Speaker #2
There's a revelation that this is going on in so many different places. And that's also part of the answer to how we can make this grow. Because we are approaching, I sometimes get the sense that we're approaching quite quickly, like a critical mass, where this is going eventually to be the standard way. Yeah. Instead of industrial agriculture, very much dependent on different inputs in terms of artificial fertilizer and diesel and all of that. So people will, that will be on history's, what do you call it?
Speaker #0
In the history books.
Speaker #2
No, landfill. In the history books. Yeah, well, it's something that we used to do that wasn't very smart. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker #0
And I think as long as we learn from things that aren't so smart, that's okay. But I think what bothers me is the number of people that I see in my own community, the number of farmers that are so, even post-Brexit, and we haven't got farm support in the same way in England. We're losing our area payments. In fact, I think they've gone now completely. And so we've got this... very complicated agri-environment system that's quite difficult to apply for um and you have to get an agent to help you and farmers feel a sense of entitlement for that money and with that entitlement comes this this
Speaker #2
disconnect from the whole reason for being a farmer yeah and you victimize yourself yeah yeah and that's that's what happens all the time when when the rest of society... Including the academy and all the consultants say, you should listen to us. We will give you the recipe on how to handle the land. And we, as a society, we treat farmers as someone who are, they are not.
Speaker #0
up for it that they they need help from everybody yeah we yeah we victimize them yeah they become the victim yeah and then all of those those companies and and advisors become their rescuer right and they never get out of that trap and and it's like i think iara is part of our role is to shine a light and to say you know look yeah stop stop looking at this circle of despair
Speaker #2
come over here see there's another way yeah but you so when you when you take that step away instead of farming by someone else's recipe and start observing that's what we were talking about before yeah you start observing see how does the different parts of nature how do the different parts of nature interact what can i learn every time i'm there with the cows or in the forest whatever, I can learn something new. And I can't... I can change the way I do the different things that I do, where the cows, I have the cows grazing at different parts of the season, in which numbers, et cetera. I can, small changes and constantly observe. I will have the ability to better, together with my friends, the cows even have an even better positive effect. on the environment. And you can do that. You can do that in market garden. You can do that in grain production or whatever. So the key is observation, experimentation, and observation again, and seeing what you actually can do. And then you take on responsibility rather than being a victim to everything else beside you. And hopefully in the long run, you will be in a situation where we are not... independent of everything from the governments in terms of subsidies and stuff. So we talked about that also during these days a lot. So subsidies is like the farmer has to come and beg, and society gives them a little bit of money, and that's subsidy. We are so nice to you farmers. Flip it over. Farmers, we deliver services. It's just natural that we should be remunerated.
Speaker #1
If you enjoy listening to the Deep Seat Podcast, please, please support me and my work. You can do that in just five seconds by just clicking on the like and the subscribe button just down here at the bottom of your screen. And if you want to go a small extra step, you can also leave us a message in the comment section or ask us a question. We'll make sure to get back to you with an answer as soon as possible. Thank you so much in advance. Much love. And let's get back to the end of this conversation.
Speaker #0
In England, there's a lot of issues around farmers feel that they're dictated to through science and evidence. But they don't understand the science and evidence because it's put in a language and in a way that's just impenetrable to them. And I think that...
Speaker #2
And it's not relevant either. It's not relevant, yeah. Because it's theoretical, given certain conditions, that actually it's really hard to find the place where those exact conditions apply. Then it's not really relevant anymore. So the experts regarding what actually works in terms of regeneration on a specific farm, that's the farmer on site. And obviously the farmer can use the reductionist research as a tool, as another tool in the improvement of ecosystem processes.
Speaker #0
But for me, it's really important that the value of science can be fantastic. There's some things, you know, climate change, irrefutable. you know that's just it is happening yeah oh but but you can you need to make useful science into a language that farmers can understand and then can apply to their own farm but also making it so that observation is something that's respected you know but to observe you need to get off your tractor or off your pod bike and you need to stand in silence on your land yeah and listen and smell yeah hear properly and watch.
Speaker #2
And try to understand the whole rather than separate pieces. And this is also something that's extremely important in terms of how we use science and the tools of science when we study complex systems like ecosystems or the human body or social organizations, whatever. So the reductionist way of doing science, it's the tool that's not really applicable when you're trying to understand how it works. complex system works. So we need to, instead of studying details in complex systems, we need to study the system as a whole and to take to together all the different pieces and compare the regenerative agricultural system to conventional. Not a detail from each with each other, but the whole system. And this way of doing science, so far, at least in Sweden, most scientists, they are quite uncomfortable because they feel that they are asked to step out of their comfort zone. into another part of science that they don't have the top knowledge within. So they're uncomfortable. But I think I get the sense that also they are moving, not fast enough, but a little bit anyway, in that direction, that they do understand that it doesn't work to look at just a little bit of details. They have to look at the whole. I heard a conversation with, it was on a John Kempf podcast with an American woman, I don't remember her name now. And she was talking a lot about this, that we have to look at systems. Because it's no point in looking at the different parts of the system. By doing that, there's no chance that you can understand how the complex system as a whole works.
Speaker #0
And to think that we... The complexity is the beauty and we will make mistakes and that's all right. You know, as a farmer quite often I'll try something new and it fails and that's fine. You know, as long as you learn from it and you know what you did and you can then think it through and go, oh, I see. Okay, I shouldn't have done that. That's okay.
Speaker #2
And it's very likely that the mistakes that you... you make they aren't you know like uh uh the risk that the you that the system will topple topple over yeah no because you're constant constantly observing so so when you're doing that you will pick up And you're monitoring, you're able to control before things get worse. And then you will also, when it goes in the direction you don't want, you can replan.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And then, you know, the feedback loop goes around and around.
Speaker #0
And I think that an understanding that it's okay to try something new. Yeah. And then if that doesn't work, you can try something else. And that's how. Yeah, human evolution must have worked like that. Yeah,
Speaker #2
yeah. I have to share one example. I had, you know, when I started to graze all of those peatland, drained peatland that I talked about before, that hadn't been grazed for 20, 25 years, more reeds than grass. Did we talk about this? Yeah. Yeah, I can share it again. We haven't told all these people. Because this was, I had the idea that high animal impact, would be the solution because they will just trample down all the reeds. Yeah, and I was quite confident in my hybris, you know, theoretical scientist thinking this out. Yeah, and the result was the opposite. Less grass and more reeds. Yeah, yeah. And I was, you know, I felt... I felt like I tricked myself into this. And I thought, what am I going to do now? So I talked to this guy. He has no scientific training at all, but he has much more experience with running cattle than me, both on different kinds of lands, including drained peatland. So he said that, well, in my experience, what worked with not high animal impact, quite uh uh quite low impact for a short period of time. And then let the system rest and let them come back. And I thought about it a long time. I thought, hang on, that might work. So the critical thing here is that if you have the grasses that are there, which actually have co-evolved with the grazers, In order for them to be able to compete with the reeds, they need to be handled with care in the beginning. Now, when they have really picked up energy and have had their resting periods and they can grow vigorously, then you can also raise them with a high impact. But not when they are really starting. off. So what I did was that I picked up that idea but I also thought okay so these reeds they were like big bushes so I thought I need us need to do something more so I decided to just after having the animals grazing there, low animal impact just short time, I took out the tractor and I cut the reed like bunches. at like 25, 30 centimeters. And I thought, okay, so the regrown grass wouldn't be affected. And then when I came back like three or four weeks later, I could see the regrowth from the grass, but not from the reeds. So already after a few weeks, the grass was taking over. And I almost started to cry. Because I saw with my observation, my understanding, don't just be a theoretical scientist with hybrids. And we're talking to my very good friend who is not a scientist, but could get me down to earth. I actually found, this is actually working. So now I've done it in other places as well. And yeah. and it seems to actually be working like so i did what so this summer when we bail hay on place like that i i have like so much better hay quality than i ever had for in the few years that i've been doing that there i uh i've got a similar story we we have a a
Speaker #0
lot of european gorse which is non-native super invasive uh goose gorse so i i It's a very spiky plant. Ah,
Speaker #2
it's a plant.
Speaker #0
It's a huge plant. It'll grow up to sort of two meters high, smothers everything out, and nothing will graze it.
Speaker #2
What is it, like a thistle or no?
Speaker #0
Oh, it's like a shrub.
Speaker #2
Right, okay. A woody shrub. It's a woody shrub, all right.
Speaker #0
And it loves being burnt. So the more my dad... my dad my bless him he would go out regularly set fire to it which was very exciting you get like meters of flame going everywhere uh but then it the the seed uh falls onto the bare ash and it's the first thing to germinate so actually it's fire um you know it loves a bit of fire so it's like fire dependent yeah it's fire dependent and and it's just out competing all of your native. sort of grasses and flowers yeah and we my dad said well you know this would be good for this it was an area by a by a river he said it would be good for it to be woodland yeah so i'm going to burn the gorse down yeah and plant trees right so engineering yeah man dominates like nature so off you went and then we took over the my husband and i took over the farm and i went right I'm going to burn the gorse and he said don't be ridiculous you know that's just making it worse is the gorse getting any less I said no it's not getting any less he's just just leave it yeah and we had a stand of birch trees yeah and uh there was the from the predominant wind was blowing the seed into the gorse yeah and then the little trees were beginning to grow up and then as the birch trees grew up through because nobody was burning the gorse off all the time and killing all the baby trees right all of the gauze is it doesn't like being in the shade right and so all the gauze is getting shaded out and the birch trees are growing and the beautiful natural flora is returning underneath it's like oh yeah yeah just be humble yeah leave it alone yeah and let nature do what nature needs to do yeah and be patient right so i think you know observation, learning, but also having My husband and I don't set the phone to him.
Speaker #2
And what you're talking about is a disturbance regime. And that's quite a good way of thinking, because that makes you understand that nature isn't static. It's dynamic. It's disturbance continuously. And with a specific type of disturbance regime, you will have a certain type of development. and starting. Rather than succession, you will have a state when transition that goes back and forth a little bit. But when you keep up the disturbance regime and understanding how to do that, you will be able to keep a dynamic going on. It's not a static thing. It's a dynamic continuously going on.
Speaker #0
And I think it comes back to joy. You know, you get from that holding back and observing, you get that, you know, now I go down and I stand and I look at my little trees growing that have cost me nothing. And they're just this amazing habitat. And it's a sense of joy. And it is that wonder in what nature can do. Yeah,
Speaker #2
there are so many examples of this. that there are a lot of people who are who have a lot of trouble with thistles, nettles, and duck. Their grazing areas are full of that. They think up all of these mechanical engineering solutions to reduce those problems. What I hear from, what I feel myself, what I can see myself, and what I hear from a lot of people that do regenerative grazing is that we don't worry about that. that it sorts itself out yeah when when you when you adapt to grazing and it's uh uh and you let the the grasses and the the forbs that evolved with the grazing animals in symbiosis when you let it function the way evolution made it function it will sort itself out and the thistles and the the doc anyway. They are... they are also signaling to you that something is wrong here.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
So.
Speaker #0
Yeah, listen to what you're being told. Yeah. And I think, I know that for me, docks are where I've got compaction.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
But I don't want to get rid of them because there's nothing more beautiful than a flock of goldfinches. feeding on dock seed in the autumn it's a beautiful thing yeah yeah so you know a few docks is a small price yeah there's room for a little bit of that too yeah and this is another interesting thing when we talk about you know all these uh my
Speaker #2
old colleagues from university nature conservationist people uh one thought as you know as biologists is that I have all these, you know, friends from university who started biology, who now works in nature conservation. In courses at university, they were told, you know, together with me, that nature is dynamic. Everything changes, we have the disturbance regimes, all of that. And now a lot of those people... those people. Those people, not us. Well, my friends, they were working, you know, with nature conservation in some kind of government place. And they seem to have completely forgotten about the dynamics of nature, which they have studied at university. And they are working with nature conservation. I have a problem with that word. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't conserve a state.
Speaker #0
And it's like you can bring it to that. a good state or a favorable state, when we call it in England, but not thinking that that isn't an amazing dynamic thing. Yeah,
Speaker #2
that's the key.
Speaker #0
And you're not going to get it there and it's going to somehow stay there. Yeah. Like, ta-da You know, it's not something that needs constant...
Speaker #2
So that's not... We were talking about conventional farming. A lot of problems arise when you think you can engineer nature. That nature conservation idea, that's also a kind of engineering idea. I want to keep all these. A lot of times it's focused on a few indicator species. I want to keep those. So you're looking at the details, you're missing the whole. How did the habitat for these species come about? That's the question you constantly should ask yourself when you're working with that. And there is a disturbance regime that made this possible. So that's what you have to find out. What is that? And then try to not stand in the way for that. And a lot of times in Sweden and a lot of many other places, it's so very many times linked to grazing animals.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
All over the place.
Speaker #0
We've got a beautiful butterfly, the marsh fritillary butterfly. And it is on our wet, peaty Maya systems. But the marsh fertility butterfly isn't very good at flying. So it's not very good.
Speaker #2
It's too bad if you're a butterfly.
Speaker #0
It's really bad. You're a butterfly living in a rainy swamp. Aye.
Speaker #2
And you can't fly.
Speaker #0
They're not very good at flying. And everything tries to, it's got a parasitic wasp. And so it's no good managing small patches. so a group of us Farmers have come together as a farm cluster to manage for the marsh fertility butterfly. We're all passionate about it because when it flies, it's orange and brown, and it's like a flying stained glass window. It's the most beautiful little thing. I don't think we have that one. Oh, it's so good. We're very proud of it.
Speaker #2
It's like endangered?
Speaker #0
Oh, super endangered. and we have a We have a tiny cup that came from a charity shop and we have an organisation that are really interested in the butterflies. And they come out and they walk a transect on everybody's farms. And then we compete for this rubbish little cup every year. And it's the biggest competition, you know, and it's always... But what it means is we're all tied into this thing and looking after the metapopulation. there's competition there's community and but some years somebody will have a huge population and the next year they'll have nothing and that's why it's important to look at the whole dynamic habitat yeah yeah so i have to ask so all these nature conservationist people that come around how
Speaker #2
do they interact with you are they like so because there are so many cases where people Those people, sorry, they have come around and say, okay, we can't let farmers handle this because they don't know anything about that butterfly. And then they would like to put, you know, all these restrictions on what you can and can't do. And a lot of times the result is you lose those endangered species.
Speaker #0
I think that's very true in the past. Yeah. But I think that... our nature conservation agencies in in england we've got amazing environmental ngos like butterfly conservation and the staff that they employ are very uh very balanced on their understanding of the role of farmers and see their value yeah and i would say that it's all down to the quality of that individual advisor yeah yeah that makes or breaks a project yeah and you And also the longevity that they're in place, so that they've got a decent amount of time and funding, so they've got enough time to build relationships with people to sort out the species that needs the sorting.
Speaker #2
Yeah, I think we're a little bit behind in Sweden in that sense. And a lot of things are happening. I worked at a conference three years ago, where we, me and a few others, within the regenerative movement we were invited to talk about how we work with with grazing uh and how the the idea was that let's see how we can can work together better how they can use us as a resource in their nature conservation work lack of better word um so and it's i went there with a sense that okay they're probably gonna tell me now you can't graze the way it's Because a lot of times they have this idea that they have to degenerate the system in order for these poor competitive species to thrive. And that's completely contradictory to what I want to do. I want a vibrant system which actually we know can keep much more biodiversity in total numbers of species. So I was expecting opposition. But I was surprised that... The way we approached understanding of ecosystem processes, they didn't protest, but they have a conflict within them. They do understand the importance of well-functioning ecosystem processes, but at the same time, they have sort of decided that these few poor competitive species are proxies for total biodiversity. you It's very confusing for them. So when they're making a plan for how to handle a nature reserve somewhere, far too many times it actually suggests to do degenerative grazing.
Speaker #0
yeah and i think not seeing um that nature nature conservation can sit alongside farm systems and be completely integrated in yeah and i think so that's why i think you get this
Speaker #2
dichotomy with farming and nature yeah yeah farming and rewilding as well yeah you know i think it's all part of the same thing yeah and yeah and what i was going to say is that the the nature conservationist at this conference they said some one thing that that stuck in my mind and was really a key to understand for me anyway how we could better work together because they described what they were doing on a daily basis that was managing small stamps of land dispersed in a sea of green that they have no possibility to handle or to work with at all. And actually, one of them said, actually, is this all we want to do really work with these small stamps? No, we want something more. And who might be the best people for us to make that happen? That's actually the the land stewards out there, the farmers. So if we can come together from our different perspectives, it can become quite powerful. So I spend some time trying to get, and we will have a conference with our Swedish NGO, a yearly annual meeting, where we're actually talking about these things. How can we bring these two?
Speaker #0
two attitudes these two two views together we've had a really successful thing in england which is catchment sensitive farming right and it's about we have massive problems with water pollution from from intensive dairy in particular but from intensive cattle systems yeah and catchment sensitive farming employed people that understand about the water environment but also have a very strong background in farming yeah and so they were going in Thank you. To help farmers with a problem. And then on the back of that.
Speaker #2
The ones causing the pollution.
Speaker #0
The ones causing the pollution, but to come up with solutions with them on their farm. Right. To make it better. Yeah. And then, so these were really intensive. These are really intensive farmers.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And then they were going, and at the same time, whilst you're thinking about catchment sensitive farming, what about all these other things you could do for nature as well?
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And because they were very trusted. And they were very agricultural focused. They were almost giving legitimacy for the farmers to go, oh, I could think about nature conservation as well. And that was, I think it's an incredibly powerful model for how you get into all of that bright green sea of ground. That poor little patches of nature sit in a patchwork. It's completely unsustainable to manage them that way. So
Speaker #2
In some way managed to get the farmers to understand that this is something that they could gain from. What was the key?
Speaker #0
I think there's something about farmers letting go a little bit, that they don't have to manage every bit of land right up to the edge of a nature reserve. Celebrating good... You know, when they do great things, celebrating what they're doing, celebrating their investment and their time. I do think that the role of advice and helping people on that journey is really important. But I think farmers being part of the solution rather than being part of the problem is a massive part of that transition.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and it's very important the way you approach a farmer. at that time, isn't it? If you go there with the sense that this is a polluter that I have to force to stop, or you approach them as part of the solution instead. Yeah. A very different situation to meet someone.
Speaker #0
I mean, you're dealing with most of the problems with the environment. People, not, I come from people. They don't come from anywhere else. And it's our behavior that has such an impact. Woo, I'm done. Yeah.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

This is not another conversation about agricultural policy, carbon markets, subsidies or food system bureaucracy.

It is a deeply human conversation about regenerative farming, biodiversity, grazing animals, soil health, ecosystem restoration, community, belonging… and joy.

At the heart of the conversation is a powerful idea: farmers are not simply producers trapped inside industrial systems. They are observers, experimenters and caretakers of living ecosystems.

It is hopeful without being naïve.

A conversation about farming, yes — but also about how humans might find their way back to meaning, resilience and connection in an increasingly fractured world.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
the primal thing that drives me in my farming system and that's joy that the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer i get the chills what are you talking about farming like that welcome
Speaker #1
back to the deep seed and thank you so much for tuning in today we have a wonderful wonderful conversation between two regenerative farmers so naomi from the uk and Gunnar from Sweden. Absolutely love this conversation because they are both so passionate and so in love with their job and their lifestyle and the way they're farming in harmony with nature and with animals. We spent a lot of time talking about how much better regenerative agriculture is from a technical perspective, ecological perspective and even economical, right? And these are all super important. But I feel like we're not talking enough about how much more... Nourishing for the soul regenerative farming is. And that's huge, right? Because we know that a majority of farmers are going to be retiring in the next 10 years. And we need millions and millions of young people coming to farming. But the problem is that young people, myself included, are not interested in the old conventional extractive model of agriculture. We're not interested in spending our days destroying ecosystems, spraying chemicals to kill life. And all of that, right? So we need a version, a vision for agriculture that is exciting for young people, that is fun, that is desirable. And I really think that regenerative agriculture offers just that. I love this conversation because it's filled with joy and with hope. And God knows we need a little dose of joy and hope right now. This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. I'm your host, Raphael. And this is the Deep Seat Podcast.
Speaker #0
So, let's talk about joy.
Speaker #2
Yeah, go ahead Naomi.
Speaker #0
So, the things that I've taken away from the last two days here in Brussels is that we've talked about lots of systemic issues and the need for funding and the need for verification and all sorts of things. Well, what we've not talked about is the primal thing that drives me in my farming system. And that's joy, the sheer wonder of waking up in the morning and being a full-time farmer after a life of working off the farm as an ecologist. And just how incredible it is to have the time and the space to interact with my animals and my landscape and then sell my products to people. And just how incredible that is.
Speaker #2
as a process and what a luxury and i wondered if you could tell me about what that's like for you that resonates to me a lot i get the chills when you talk about farming like that i'm a bit envious too because i i don't don't do it full time i i would love to but still you know i spend a lot of time uh teaching and and and consulting and which is also extremely rewarding because you can see the lights appearing in people's eyes. Well, it's not that I bring them a gospel. It's more like I help them to open the rise for what they really have in front of them in their very own place, so they can get the same sense of joy that you're talking about. Because I have to say, that's what drives me too. Whenever I'm feeling a little bit, you know, not so comfortable, stressed out, the very best thing is to go to my cows and hang out with them for a while because they just ooze out well-being. What's the opposite to being stressed?
Speaker #0
Being chilled, I suppose. I find it really interesting. It's soothing. Very soothing. Very, very good for your soul. I find it really interesting that if I go to work with my cows, and I'm stressed, and I'm holding tension, they won't have it. They don't want to interact with me. They don't want me there, because I'm not... in a positive space this is true they'll give you the eye yeah they give you the side eye come back come back when you calm down come back when you've sorted your stuff out and then i'll be ready and that different and realizing that if you're like that and that you have that impact on animals you must have that impact on people as well yeah and to realize that you are they they're just mirror bring back your behavior yeah and and it's it's so humbling to be put in your place by a cow oh yes it's a beautiful thing and and i think that i look at the the richness that they give me it's much more than being a farmer in a place um i i think that um at christmas time i live in a small village and out of the people in our village you Maybe half of them have bought meat from us that was for their Christmas meal.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker #0
And that just, it gives me such a sense of rootedness within my community that somebody chooses for probably one of the most important celebratory meals for their year that they want something from my farm.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's great.
Speaker #0
How many times do you have to be reassured that you have a place and a position in your community? And I think so many farmers feel disconnected from their place and from their community and they don't feel valued. And that must be terrible.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Absolutely terrible.
Speaker #2
A lot of this has to do with a sense of coherence and a sense of belonging. Where I live, it's the place where I grew up. I was two years old when my... My parents bought the farm and we moved there. I don't remember anything before that. And I lived away from when I was about 20. I lived away for 30 years. I never felt at home anywhere else. And then a few years ago, five years ago, I moved back. And I feel that now I own land there. That land doesn't belong to me, I belong to the land. And it's a very strong feeling, it's a very positive feeling. So I feel that I am part of this part of the world. I'm integrated and it's an enormous feeling. And also having the possibility to work with the landscape, together with my friends, the cows, vitalizing the system. It's extremely joyful. And when I think about that, and I also know from knowing the numbers as a scientist, I'm an ecologist like you, we have the numbers that we heal. We do heal the system. We sequester carbon. We improve water holding capacity, nutrient holding capacity. We improve nutrient mineral cycling, water cycle, all of that. This is extremely hopeful.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and I think a lot about young people detached from the basis of our lives, ecosystems, in despair about climate change and war and strange people ruling the world. I would really be wanting to share with them more what we experience on a daily basis.
Speaker #0
I find it interesting. I'm a third generation. We're tenants on our farm, but we don't have children. And so when we go, somebody else will take on the tenancy. And I see myself as a long line of, part of a long line of farmers that have lived there and have worked the land. And I'll do my bit and then I'll die and I'll be gone. And then somebody else will come along and they'll take on the, you know, the. looking after the place and the biodiversity and and there's something incredibly comforting about the idea of that legacy of what you've done and and you're a guardian for the time you're there and i don't i've always been fascinated by this idea of farmer succession we don't say oh well you're you can't be a doctor your dad's not a doctor why do we say you can't be a farmer if That's not a pharma. It's ridiculous. Anybody can be a farmer, I think. You just need a certain set of skills. My husband comes from a very urban background with no farming experience. And he's the most wonderful stockman. Yeah, he's gentle and he's got empathy. He's just lovely. And I think it's about showing young people that this is a possibility for them. You don't have to have a huge amount of capital. You could rent a farm. You could come into it by many different ways and maybe in a different place, maybe in a different country, but it's a possibility for you. And I think, as you say, there's so much darkness in the world and horror, but this is something that can give real meaning to people's lives and is so hopeful.
Speaker #2
It is.
Speaker #0
It's so good. Why doesn't everybody want to be a farmer? Right,
Speaker #2
yeah, I get you, exactly. And actually, large parts of the school system and education within farming, to some degree, sometimes to a large degree, stands in the way. Because it's reductionist, it reduces everything, all the joy and the happiness to... to numbers that even those numbers aren't very relevant if you actually want to achieve ecosystem vitalization. So then it comes down, it's just a job. You could just, you know, it's nothing different from being employed by a big food retailer somewhere. You're just another link in the chain and you're not attached to the farming and to the animals and to the nature. So we have to take that back.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I always say that I want to farm like my granddad did. You know, he had a very rich, very seasonal life. And his animals would go away in the winter to the lowlands. And he would have less work to do on the farm. And then he would just, it was a very, he would have some sheep. And it was all very simple. And then the cows would come back in the summer. And it was kind of... you Very low input, very little money, but actually his richness was in the amount of food he could grow for himself.
Speaker #2
You're working with a different currency, right? Yeah,
Speaker #0
and his currency was not being dependent on other people. You know, fiercely independent. And I see that that's a really exciting thing.
Speaker #2
Sometimes I have a little bit of problems with independency. I've read talk about codependency because you really wanted to do this together with other people. Because like your customers or mine, because I sell my projects the same way you do. And when we started, we thought that we would have locally because we really want to sell our meat locally. Because otherwise people living far away, friends of ours, you know, hours away, they would like to buy from us. and I tell him, well, it's That's all very nice, but we have a good friend in your area. Use your source and meet there instead. So we were a little bit hesitant. Will we be able to sell everything? So we started talking to people, and we had a mail list, and we put it out. And in two days, everything was sold. Yeah. So there was an urge. There was a demand much higher than we could experience because people really valued... Knowing that when I consume this meat together with friends at dinner, I am a part of vitalizing the landscape. I can't say that they would put it in just those words, but I'm quite sure that that's the sentiment that they feel. So they become a part of our codependency. So they actually become a part of my farm, if you like.
Speaker #0
Well, they become part of our wider ecosystem, don't they? Our social landscape. And then we touch out much further into the community than we could as individuals. I love it. We have sheep and there are many different colors. So they range from black to white, but through all of the colors of browns and golds. And they're very beautiful. we um We shear them off and we sell the wool and we sell the sheepskins when the sheep are slaughtered. And people buy them and they're expensive. And people value the fact that they're organic, they're regenerative, they're beautiful. And they're becoming something that's going to be really important in their home. It's like a piece of software machine in their home. and they put their babies on them because it's a lovely organic thing to put your small baby on. What is more precious than a thing that you put a baby on? And this just, the richness that you get from that is enormous, I think.
Speaker #2
Yeah. And would you say that your customers, as they interact with you, they buy your meat, your skin, the wool, do they feel, would you think that they feel that they... also take on responsibility for the landscape when doing so.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. The number of people, since we've used social media and blogs to engage people, so we never advertise meat, we just do it through social media. Yeah, yeah. You know, we're just like, oh, we've got some meat coming.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And it'll be gone.
Speaker #2
That's the same story for me. Exactly. You hear this from so many different places in the world. And this, that, it's not just you and me. It's a lot of other people. This is quite a strong message. That our people around us actually want something else. And those people who actually are not saying it out loud that they want that, I'm quite sure it's because they are not aware that this is a possibility. So this is where we have work to do.
Speaker #1
Just a really quick pause from this awesome conversation to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, Soil Capital. Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health or biodiversity. If you'd like to learn more about them, I will leave a link in the description of this episode.
Speaker #0
I think we have a lot of work to do around communication. And I think when you can tell that story about, I think both our cases, you know, we're doing a lot for nature conservation by using our grazing animals to deliver for biodiversity. And that story is a beautiful thing, isn't it? Your cow or your sheep has lived a wild, natural life in a nature-rich place. And its presence is good for nature recovery.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's a lovely story.
Speaker #2
A lot of times when I teach holistic management of regenerative agriculture, we talk about the grazing animals as tools for regenerating the ecosystem. Now, a lot of people, they kind of hesitate when I say tool about my friend, the cow. But when I explain that, I'm a tool too. We're all just tools together to make about the positive change. Now we're getting into this debate whether should we have production areas or should we have nature? Because that's what society tells us that we have to choose. And what we say all the time is that we can actually use domesticated cattle as a proxy for the mega herbivores that were around before we, in our poor wisdom, killed off most of them. We had them, didn't we? Yeah. So now that critical component of a well-functioning ecosystem is to a large degree gone. So we have to take on the responsibility to replace that component with the domesticated animals and us playing sort of the carnivores that keep the cattle in place and move them around. And when I explain this to people, we are trying to mimic what evolution actually uh invented over millions of years people can understand that this is probably a good idea i think i get quite hung up when people talk about the nature
Speaker #0
or production right like it's a dichotomy you can't have both and i and then when people talk about nature and rewilding i get quite Peace. I think it's quite contentious. I think there is a continuum from conventional agriculture to full rewilding, full natural processes. And I think that regenerative agriculture sits in that place along that continuum and different farms sit in different places. I think I'm quite close. My cows have run on a very, very extensive system and they have a lot of autonomy to decide where they want to go. but a fully rewilded system. we have a big fashion in England at the moment for people to, everybody who's got a lot of money, which is quite a few people, wants bison at the moment. They're like the trendy thing of the moment. So there's a big market for bison. And people are putting bison into woodlands. But bison don't like people particularly. They're not great with public access. And then... They've not been in our system for a long time and every cow, every bovine in England has to be tested regularly for bovine tuberculosis. And they really don't like that. And so you think, well, I can see that having these animals, you know, they're really a sort of conspicuous megafauna, aren't they? They're like,
Speaker #2
wow.
Speaker #0
But...
Speaker #2
It's a very attractive thought, isn't it? That you can rewild, bring back those mega herbivores that are still around and just put them into our system and everything just will sort of...
Speaker #0
itself out without thinking about the framework right of legislation like right tb testing and yeah yeah and there is a little bit of infrastructure in the way as well yeah highways cities yeah cities people yeah and you think well the a domestic cow probably isn't as good at that ecosystem engineering yeah but she's probably pretty good
Speaker #2
If you give them a chance. Yeah, they act within the ecosystem if they get the possibility to do so. Very similar to what a bison would do.
Speaker #0
Yeah, but not as kind of attractive for people. No, no. And then that's about humans wanting to have their impact on the system.
Speaker #2
It's not as David Attenborough-ish.
Speaker #0
No. And it's maybe not as cool, but I do think that we should be um People take the horns off cattle now, don't they? If cows have horns, they'll take the horns off. But actually, that makes them a much better ecosystem engineer, getting in and rubbing on trees and generally having a bit of a good time.
Speaker #2
So I have a hornless breed, naturally hornless.
Speaker #0
And so that's a choice,
Speaker #2
isn't it? Yeah. It's an old heritage breed. They function very well in our landscape. And I just, the landscape. tells me that these are the ones that we want. So it's fine with us there.
Speaker #0
I think that often there are breeds of animal that are indigenous to a place, and they grew up there because of the conditions there.
Speaker #2
And they are molded by the conditions and vice versa.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I think it's amazing that those breeds have probably got traits that will be useful for us in the future, particularly within regenerative systems. Yeah, yeah. It would be great if we could have some kind of way of supporting that.
Speaker #2
And this is another thing I think about when coming back to the hope thing. I'm continuously fascinated by the competences and the intelligence that the cows and the rest of the nature also has. And I've seen so many examples of us. We're like Socrates. I'm a little bit smarter than the other ones because I know that I don't know anything. There is so much more to know. And you could be like feeling very frustrated because I know so little. I flip it over. I'm just fascinated. It's great there is so much that we don't know, which is intrinsic in nature. Nature, it's evolved over time. And so one thing that actually is a part of also bringing hope is that we, instead of thinking engineering, we can trust that nature actually have the solutions already. Just try to, as much as we can, to observe and, you know, without all the... School knowledge that stands in the way to observe and then try to take our part to let nature work as close to evolution as made it as possible.
Speaker #0
I think
Speaker #2
I tried to do that on a daily basis. And it feels like it's strong feeling that this is probably most probably the best thing that I can do for myself and for my, you know, my family and everybody else around.
Speaker #0
I think that business, I find myself wanting to go in and intervene with things.
Speaker #3
Yeah,
Speaker #2
you have to struggle that all the time, don't you?
Speaker #0
And I really struggle because it's almost like I have to justify why I'm the farmer. Because actually nature and most often my livestock, they don't need me. You know, they'd be perfectly fine without me, thank you. It's just that I kind of, I fill in the forms and generally buy bits and pieces for them. And that it is that wonder of how much nature can thrive if you just give it the opportunity and that livestock can as well.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker #0
That's beautiful.
Speaker #2
So when we feel so much joy and hope in what we're doing on a daily basis, all we want, not all we want, but what we really would like to have happen is to bring it to as many other people as possible. Right?
Speaker #0
Yep.
Speaker #2
And that's the reason for why I am an EARA farmer, I would say. Because I think that this platform might be the most powerful thing I've seen.
Speaker #0
so far in order to propagate this i think um for me i i live in a very tight-knit farming community uh that's very insular um so it's a very hilly region in an otherwise super productive area so it sort of sits in a sea of dairy farming um and
Speaker #2
so you're the other one out there yeah yeah in my swamp Ha
Speaker #0
It's very, very wet. So we're doing a lot of land management for flooding and water quality and quantity to stop downstream flooding. And we're really keen on that. And we work with a farm cluster and we do lots of good things. But it all felt very inward looking. So we didn't feel that we were... Leaving Europe was incredibly... negative for me i felt the whole brexit vote felt very difficult it felt like a closing down of opportunity yeah and then what we were doing around the land management feels incredibly hopeful and there's lots of good things around species recovery and landscape scale working and working with other farmers but um but it was difficult to see how that could scale out right And Iyara seemed to me to be a way of learning from completely new people you know i i was thrilled when i heard that you graze your cows in a forest in a forest in england nobody would put cows in a forest but actually not so many in southern sweden either but of course if you were a cow what could be a better place to live in than a than a woodland with shade and and dappled light and shelter how fantastic and and so It's like every time I go onto a call with the ER or I read something, I pick up something every time. And it's that opening out and that blossoming of hearing new ideas from people that have a completely different perspective, that are farming in a completely different way. And from just this amazing group of people on the OT, the operating team. Just incredible, you know, this massive enthusiasm and drive. And energy. And energy. And I just look at them and just say, whew, you know, they're so inspiring. And they make so many things happen for us farmers.
Speaker #2
They are very dear to us.
Speaker #0
Very dear to us indeed. And I find it constantly invigorating being part of IARA, actually.
Speaker #2
Yeah, me too.
Speaker #0
I think we joined at the same time. I think Yeah, I think we both appeared at the castle together. Yeah, right, yeah. And I just remember arriving at the castle, the crazy castle, with that amazing building in that incredible landscape with beavers in the valley and just thinking I'd stepped almost into like a parallel universe with these people that had come together and how...
Speaker #2
That's really amazing. I came from, you know, being part of the regenerative movement in Sweden. Before that, the first thing, hearing anything about that was Ellen Zaver's TED Talk in 2013. I watched it on YouTube in 2015 or 16. And then I started searching for... for people who are doing anything in this direction in Sweden. It took me a couple of years. I was in a divorce too, and at the same time, I met my now wife. So life was a little bit, you know, up and down at the time, or down and up. And then I got into the Swedish Redundancy Movement, and that was a strong sense of homecoming. I felt that this is the way, the place I like to be. But still... I had very little knowledge about what's going on in Europe. I heard and read a lot about what's happening in the States because there are so many proponents there that have been very verbal. You can find everything and anything on YouTube from people like Gabe Brown and Yul Saladin and all of those guys. But from Europe, not so much. Then I heard about the ARA. And now, suddenly... Hang on, there's lots of people all over Europe.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And as you say, farming in so many very different ways, but we all adhere to the same principles.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
It's all nature-based. It's all systemic. It's all...
Speaker #0
uh taking responsibility right yeah and the whole i must admit the first time i heard i i read the phrase unity and diversity i was like it sounded a bit culty to me and i was a bit like but the more i think about it it's exactly the right words because it is everybody it's such a lovely inclusive way of talking about all of the different ways and encompassing all the different ways that we can we can be on that regenerative path together and it being about a like a constant improvement a constant learning and growth and such a positive thing and i think um i love going to the castle but going to pulacaro this year that that place Actually, I thought my brain was going to melt. It was so exciting. It just had this revelation walking down the track. And I looked, this is really charming, I looked at a giant pile of dog shit. It was huge. It must have been a kilo of proper white dog poo, which you never see white dog poo anymore. And it was from where the dogs were eating bones and natural raw food. And the heaving amount of insect life and stuff that was going on. And the dogs and the chickens and the goats and just the whole ecosystem seeming to revolve around those guardian dogs. And just this incredible bond of people. to the animals to the place in this amazing like a dance it is that that was beautiful that's a nice way to put it we're all dancing together we're all just dancing together across europe and it's just fantastic yeah yeah and and this uh describing
Speaker #2
it this way it this is also the answer to why there is so much energy among people doing this because you you you don't want to stop you want to keep going
Speaker #0
You don't want to be the person that steps out, really. You never want to let anybody down. And I think, and everybody feels that way, which is why it's so important. And I find each time that new people join, it's like your family's growing bigger and bigger. And it's not like a sense of, oh, now I've got to share. It's like, wow, more people, you know, and just that momentum.
Speaker #2
There's a revelation that this is going on in so many different places. And that's also part of the answer to how we can make this grow. Because we are approaching, I sometimes get the sense that we're approaching quite quickly, like a critical mass, where this is going eventually to be the standard way. Yeah. Instead of industrial agriculture, very much dependent on different inputs in terms of artificial fertilizer and diesel and all of that. So people will, that will be on history's, what do you call it?
Speaker #0
In the history books.
Speaker #2
No, landfill. In the history books. Yeah, well, it's something that we used to do that wasn't very smart. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker #0
And I think as long as we learn from things that aren't so smart, that's okay. But I think what bothers me is the number of people that I see in my own community, the number of farmers that are so, even post-Brexit, and we haven't got farm support in the same way in England. We're losing our area payments. In fact, I think they've gone now completely. And so we've got this... very complicated agri-environment system that's quite difficult to apply for um and you have to get an agent to help you and farmers feel a sense of entitlement for that money and with that entitlement comes this this
Speaker #2
disconnect from the whole reason for being a farmer yeah and you victimize yourself yeah yeah and that's that's what happens all the time when when the rest of society... Including the academy and all the consultants say, you should listen to us. We will give you the recipe on how to handle the land. And we, as a society, we treat farmers as someone who are, they are not.
Speaker #0
up for it that they they need help from everybody yeah we yeah we victimize them yeah they become the victim yeah and then all of those those companies and and advisors become their rescuer right and they never get out of that trap and and it's like i think iara is part of our role is to shine a light and to say you know look yeah stop stop looking at this circle of despair
Speaker #2
come over here see there's another way yeah but you so when you when you take that step away instead of farming by someone else's recipe and start observing that's what we were talking about before yeah you start observing see how does the different parts of nature how do the different parts of nature interact what can i learn every time i'm there with the cows or in the forest whatever, I can learn something new. And I can't... I can change the way I do the different things that I do, where the cows, I have the cows grazing at different parts of the season, in which numbers, et cetera. I can, small changes and constantly observe. I will have the ability to better, together with my friends, the cows even have an even better positive effect. on the environment. And you can do that. You can do that in market garden. You can do that in grain production or whatever. So the key is observation, experimentation, and observation again, and seeing what you actually can do. And then you take on responsibility rather than being a victim to everything else beside you. And hopefully in the long run, you will be in a situation where we are not... independent of everything from the governments in terms of subsidies and stuff. So we talked about that also during these days a lot. So subsidies is like the farmer has to come and beg, and society gives them a little bit of money, and that's subsidy. We are so nice to you farmers. Flip it over. Farmers, we deliver services. It's just natural that we should be remunerated.
Speaker #1
If you enjoy listening to the Deep Seat Podcast, please, please support me and my work. You can do that in just five seconds by just clicking on the like and the subscribe button just down here at the bottom of your screen. And if you want to go a small extra step, you can also leave us a message in the comment section or ask us a question. We'll make sure to get back to you with an answer as soon as possible. Thank you so much in advance. Much love. And let's get back to the end of this conversation.
Speaker #0
In England, there's a lot of issues around farmers feel that they're dictated to through science and evidence. But they don't understand the science and evidence because it's put in a language and in a way that's just impenetrable to them. And I think that...
Speaker #2
And it's not relevant either. It's not relevant, yeah. Because it's theoretical, given certain conditions, that actually it's really hard to find the place where those exact conditions apply. Then it's not really relevant anymore. So the experts regarding what actually works in terms of regeneration on a specific farm, that's the farmer on site. And obviously the farmer can use the reductionist research as a tool, as another tool in the improvement of ecosystem processes.
Speaker #0
But for me, it's really important that the value of science can be fantastic. There's some things, you know, climate change, irrefutable. you know that's just it is happening yeah oh but but you can you need to make useful science into a language that farmers can understand and then can apply to their own farm but also making it so that observation is something that's respected you know but to observe you need to get off your tractor or off your pod bike and you need to stand in silence on your land yeah and listen and smell yeah hear properly and watch.
Speaker #2
And try to understand the whole rather than separate pieces. And this is also something that's extremely important in terms of how we use science and the tools of science when we study complex systems like ecosystems or the human body or social organizations, whatever. So the reductionist way of doing science, it's the tool that's not really applicable when you're trying to understand how it works. complex system works. So we need to, instead of studying details in complex systems, we need to study the system as a whole and to take to together all the different pieces and compare the regenerative agricultural system to conventional. Not a detail from each with each other, but the whole system. And this way of doing science, so far, at least in Sweden, most scientists, they are quite uncomfortable because they feel that they are asked to step out of their comfort zone. into another part of science that they don't have the top knowledge within. So they're uncomfortable. But I think I get the sense that also they are moving, not fast enough, but a little bit anyway, in that direction, that they do understand that it doesn't work to look at just a little bit of details. They have to look at the whole. I heard a conversation with, it was on a John Kempf podcast with an American woman, I don't remember her name now. And she was talking a lot about this, that we have to look at systems. Because it's no point in looking at the different parts of the system. By doing that, there's no chance that you can understand how the complex system as a whole works.
Speaker #0
And to think that we... The complexity is the beauty and we will make mistakes and that's all right. You know, as a farmer quite often I'll try something new and it fails and that's fine. You know, as long as you learn from it and you know what you did and you can then think it through and go, oh, I see. Okay, I shouldn't have done that. That's okay.
Speaker #2
And it's very likely that the mistakes that you... you make they aren't you know like uh uh the risk that the you that the system will topple topple over yeah no because you're constant constantly observing so so when you're doing that you will pick up And you're monitoring, you're able to control before things get worse. And then you will also, when it goes in the direction you don't want, you can replan.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #2
And then, you know, the feedback loop goes around and around.
Speaker #0
And I think that an understanding that it's okay to try something new. Yeah. And then if that doesn't work, you can try something else. And that's how. Yeah, human evolution must have worked like that. Yeah,
Speaker #2
yeah. I have to share one example. I had, you know, when I started to graze all of those peatland, drained peatland that I talked about before, that hadn't been grazed for 20, 25 years, more reeds than grass. Did we talk about this? Yeah. Yeah, I can share it again. We haven't told all these people. Because this was, I had the idea that high animal impact, would be the solution because they will just trample down all the reeds. Yeah, and I was quite confident in my hybris, you know, theoretical scientist thinking this out. Yeah, and the result was the opposite. Less grass and more reeds. Yeah, yeah. And I was, you know, I felt... I felt like I tricked myself into this. And I thought, what am I going to do now? So I talked to this guy. He has no scientific training at all, but he has much more experience with running cattle than me, both on different kinds of lands, including drained peatland. So he said that, well, in my experience, what worked with not high animal impact, quite uh uh quite low impact for a short period of time. And then let the system rest and let them come back. And I thought about it a long time. I thought, hang on, that might work. So the critical thing here is that if you have the grasses that are there, which actually have co-evolved with the grazers, In order for them to be able to compete with the reeds, they need to be handled with care in the beginning. Now, when they have really picked up energy and have had their resting periods and they can grow vigorously, then you can also raise them with a high impact. But not when they are really starting. off. So what I did was that I picked up that idea but I also thought okay so these reeds they were like big bushes so I thought I need us need to do something more so I decided to just after having the animals grazing there, low animal impact just short time, I took out the tractor and I cut the reed like bunches. at like 25, 30 centimeters. And I thought, okay, so the regrown grass wouldn't be affected. And then when I came back like three or four weeks later, I could see the regrowth from the grass, but not from the reeds. So already after a few weeks, the grass was taking over. And I almost started to cry. Because I saw with my observation, my understanding, don't just be a theoretical scientist with hybrids. And we're talking to my very good friend who is not a scientist, but could get me down to earth. I actually found, this is actually working. So now I've done it in other places as well. And yeah. and it seems to actually be working like so i did what so this summer when we bail hay on place like that i i have like so much better hay quality than i ever had for in the few years that i've been doing that there i uh i've got a similar story we we have a a
Speaker #0
lot of european gorse which is non-native super invasive uh goose gorse so i i It's a very spiky plant. Ah,
Speaker #2
it's a plant.
Speaker #0
It's a huge plant. It'll grow up to sort of two meters high, smothers everything out, and nothing will graze it.
Speaker #2
What is it, like a thistle or no?
Speaker #0
Oh, it's like a shrub.
Speaker #2
Right, okay. A woody shrub. It's a woody shrub, all right.
Speaker #0
And it loves being burnt. So the more my dad... my dad my bless him he would go out regularly set fire to it which was very exciting you get like meters of flame going everywhere uh but then it the the seed uh falls onto the bare ash and it's the first thing to germinate so actually it's fire um you know it loves a bit of fire so it's like fire dependent yeah it's fire dependent and and it's just out competing all of your native. sort of grasses and flowers yeah and we my dad said well you know this would be good for this it was an area by a by a river he said it would be good for it to be woodland yeah so i'm going to burn the gorse down yeah and plant trees right so engineering yeah man dominates like nature so off you went and then we took over the my husband and i took over the farm and i went right I'm going to burn the gorse and he said don't be ridiculous you know that's just making it worse is the gorse getting any less I said no it's not getting any less he's just just leave it yeah and we had a stand of birch trees yeah and uh there was the from the predominant wind was blowing the seed into the gorse yeah and then the little trees were beginning to grow up and then as the birch trees grew up through because nobody was burning the gorse off all the time and killing all the baby trees right all of the gauze is it doesn't like being in the shade right and so all the gauze is getting shaded out and the birch trees are growing and the beautiful natural flora is returning underneath it's like oh yeah yeah just be humble yeah leave it alone yeah and let nature do what nature needs to do yeah and be patient right so i think you know observation, learning, but also having My husband and I don't set the phone to him.
Speaker #2
And what you're talking about is a disturbance regime. And that's quite a good way of thinking, because that makes you understand that nature isn't static. It's dynamic. It's disturbance continuously. And with a specific type of disturbance regime, you will have a certain type of development. and starting. Rather than succession, you will have a state when transition that goes back and forth a little bit. But when you keep up the disturbance regime and understanding how to do that, you will be able to keep a dynamic going on. It's not a static thing. It's a dynamic continuously going on.
Speaker #0
And I think it comes back to joy. You know, you get from that holding back and observing, you get that, you know, now I go down and I stand and I look at my little trees growing that have cost me nothing. And they're just this amazing habitat. And it's a sense of joy. And it is that wonder in what nature can do. Yeah,
Speaker #2
there are so many examples of this. that there are a lot of people who are who have a lot of trouble with thistles, nettles, and duck. Their grazing areas are full of that. They think up all of these mechanical engineering solutions to reduce those problems. What I hear from, what I feel myself, what I can see myself, and what I hear from a lot of people that do regenerative grazing is that we don't worry about that. that it sorts itself out yeah when when you when you adapt to grazing and it's uh uh and you let the the grasses and the the forbs that evolved with the grazing animals in symbiosis when you let it function the way evolution made it function it will sort itself out and the thistles and the the doc anyway. They are... they are also signaling to you that something is wrong here.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
So.
Speaker #0
Yeah, listen to what you're being told. Yeah. And I think, I know that for me, docks are where I've got compaction.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
But I don't want to get rid of them because there's nothing more beautiful than a flock of goldfinches. feeding on dock seed in the autumn it's a beautiful thing yeah yeah so you know a few docks is a small price yeah there's room for a little bit of that too yeah and this is another interesting thing when we talk about you know all these uh my
Speaker #2
old colleagues from university nature conservationist people uh one thought as you know as biologists is that I have all these, you know, friends from university who started biology, who now works in nature conservation. In courses at university, they were told, you know, together with me, that nature is dynamic. Everything changes, we have the disturbance regimes, all of that. And now a lot of those people... those people. Those people, not us. Well, my friends, they were working, you know, with nature conservation in some kind of government place. And they seem to have completely forgotten about the dynamics of nature, which they have studied at university. And they are working with nature conservation. I have a problem with that word. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't conserve a state.
Speaker #0
And it's like you can bring it to that. a good state or a favorable state, when we call it in England, but not thinking that that isn't an amazing dynamic thing. Yeah,
Speaker #2
that's the key.
Speaker #0
And you're not going to get it there and it's going to somehow stay there. Yeah. Like, ta-da You know, it's not something that needs constant...
Speaker #2
So that's not... We were talking about conventional farming. A lot of problems arise when you think you can engineer nature. That nature conservation idea, that's also a kind of engineering idea. I want to keep all these. A lot of times it's focused on a few indicator species. I want to keep those. So you're looking at the details, you're missing the whole. How did the habitat for these species come about? That's the question you constantly should ask yourself when you're working with that. And there is a disturbance regime that made this possible. So that's what you have to find out. What is that? And then try to not stand in the way for that. And a lot of times in Sweden and a lot of many other places, it's so very many times linked to grazing animals.
Speaker #3
Yeah.
Speaker #2
All over the place.
Speaker #0
We've got a beautiful butterfly, the marsh fritillary butterfly. And it is on our wet, peaty Maya systems. But the marsh fertility butterfly isn't very good at flying. So it's not very good.
Speaker #2
It's too bad if you're a butterfly.
Speaker #0
It's really bad. You're a butterfly living in a rainy swamp. Aye.
Speaker #2
And you can't fly.
Speaker #0
They're not very good at flying. And everything tries to, it's got a parasitic wasp. And so it's no good managing small patches. so a group of us Farmers have come together as a farm cluster to manage for the marsh fertility butterfly. We're all passionate about it because when it flies, it's orange and brown, and it's like a flying stained glass window. It's the most beautiful little thing. I don't think we have that one. Oh, it's so good. We're very proud of it.
Speaker #2
It's like endangered?
Speaker #0
Oh, super endangered. and we have a We have a tiny cup that came from a charity shop and we have an organisation that are really interested in the butterflies. And they come out and they walk a transect on everybody's farms. And then we compete for this rubbish little cup every year. And it's the biggest competition, you know, and it's always... But what it means is we're all tied into this thing and looking after the metapopulation. there's competition there's community and but some years somebody will have a huge population and the next year they'll have nothing and that's why it's important to look at the whole dynamic habitat yeah yeah so i have to ask so all these nature conservationist people that come around how
Speaker #2
do they interact with you are they like so because there are so many cases where people Those people, sorry, they have come around and say, okay, we can't let farmers handle this because they don't know anything about that butterfly. And then they would like to put, you know, all these restrictions on what you can and can't do. And a lot of times the result is you lose those endangered species.
Speaker #0
I think that's very true in the past. Yeah. But I think that... our nature conservation agencies in in england we've got amazing environmental ngos like butterfly conservation and the staff that they employ are very uh very balanced on their understanding of the role of farmers and see their value yeah and i would say that it's all down to the quality of that individual advisor yeah yeah that makes or breaks a project yeah and you And also the longevity that they're in place, so that they've got a decent amount of time and funding, so they've got enough time to build relationships with people to sort out the species that needs the sorting.
Speaker #2
Yeah, I think we're a little bit behind in Sweden in that sense. And a lot of things are happening. I worked at a conference three years ago, where we, me and a few others, within the regenerative movement we were invited to talk about how we work with with grazing uh and how the the idea was that let's see how we can can work together better how they can use us as a resource in their nature conservation work lack of better word um so and it's i went there with a sense that okay they're probably gonna tell me now you can't graze the way it's Because a lot of times they have this idea that they have to degenerate the system in order for these poor competitive species to thrive. And that's completely contradictory to what I want to do. I want a vibrant system which actually we know can keep much more biodiversity in total numbers of species. So I was expecting opposition. But I was surprised that... The way we approached understanding of ecosystem processes, they didn't protest, but they have a conflict within them. They do understand the importance of well-functioning ecosystem processes, but at the same time, they have sort of decided that these few poor competitive species are proxies for total biodiversity. you It's very confusing for them. So when they're making a plan for how to handle a nature reserve somewhere, far too many times it actually suggests to do degenerative grazing.
Speaker #0
yeah and i think not seeing um that nature nature conservation can sit alongside farm systems and be completely integrated in yeah and i think so that's why i think you get this
Speaker #2
dichotomy with farming and nature yeah yeah farming and rewilding as well yeah you know i think it's all part of the same thing yeah and yeah and what i was going to say is that the the nature conservationist at this conference they said some one thing that that stuck in my mind and was really a key to understand for me anyway how we could better work together because they described what they were doing on a daily basis that was managing small stamps of land dispersed in a sea of green that they have no possibility to handle or to work with at all. And actually, one of them said, actually, is this all we want to do really work with these small stamps? No, we want something more. And who might be the best people for us to make that happen? That's actually the the land stewards out there, the farmers. So if we can come together from our different perspectives, it can become quite powerful. So I spend some time trying to get, and we will have a conference with our Swedish NGO, a yearly annual meeting, where we're actually talking about these things. How can we bring these two?
Speaker #0
two attitudes these two two views together we've had a really successful thing in england which is catchment sensitive farming right and it's about we have massive problems with water pollution from from intensive dairy in particular but from intensive cattle systems yeah and catchment sensitive farming employed people that understand about the water environment but also have a very strong background in farming yeah and so they were going in Thank you. To help farmers with a problem. And then on the back of that.
Speaker #2
The ones causing the pollution.
Speaker #0
The ones causing the pollution, but to come up with solutions with them on their farm. Right. To make it better. Yeah. And then, so these were really intensive. These are really intensive farmers.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And then they were going, and at the same time, whilst you're thinking about catchment sensitive farming, what about all these other things you could do for nature as well?
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And because they were very trusted. And they were very agricultural focused. They were almost giving legitimacy for the farmers to go, oh, I could think about nature conservation as well. And that was, I think it's an incredibly powerful model for how you get into all of that bright green sea of ground. That poor little patches of nature sit in a patchwork. It's completely unsustainable to manage them that way. So
Speaker #2
In some way managed to get the farmers to understand that this is something that they could gain from. What was the key?
Speaker #0
I think there's something about farmers letting go a little bit, that they don't have to manage every bit of land right up to the edge of a nature reserve. Celebrating good... You know, when they do great things, celebrating what they're doing, celebrating their investment and their time. I do think that the role of advice and helping people on that journey is really important. But I think farmers being part of the solution rather than being part of the problem is a massive part of that transition.
Speaker #2
Yeah, and it's very important the way you approach a farmer. at that time, isn't it? If you go there with the sense that this is a polluter that I have to force to stop, or you approach them as part of the solution instead. Yeah. A very different situation to meet someone.
Speaker #0
I mean, you're dealing with most of the problems with the environment. People, not, I come from people. They don't come from anywhere else. And it's our behavior that has such an impact. Woo, I'm done. Yeah.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Deep Seed - Regenerative Agriculture

Welcome to the Deep Seed Podcast, your ultimate source for all things regenerative agriculture, soil health, and ecosystem restoration!

Key topics discussed include:

Agroecology and its role in creating sustainable food systems
The power of agroforestry in boosting biodiversity and productivity
How carbon farming can fight climate change while benefiting farmers
The benefits of no-till farming for soil health and erosion prevention
Holistic grazing practices that restore ecosystems and enhance animal welfare
Crop rotation and polyculture for nutrient-rich soils and resilient farms
Exploring the potential of food forests and other nature-based solutions
The critical link between soil microbiology and plant health
Restoration agriculture and the future of land regeneration
Climate solutions that leverage regenerative practices to sequester carbon
Promoting biodiversity through sustainable farming approaches
Insights into the importance of sustainable diets and their environmental impact
Rewilding and its role in ecosystem restoration and preservation

Get in touch with me LinkedIn - Raphael Esterhazy

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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