Better Buildings, Better Neighbourhoods, Better Lives - Erman Erogan | Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Description

Erman Erogan, Policy and Campaign Officer at CAN Europe, joins Energ’Ethic to discuss the Build Better Lives campaign and Europe’s race to deliver affordable, energy-efficient homes.

Europe’s homes tell a story — one of rising bills, cold rooms, and missed opportunities for fairness and comfort. But a new chapter is being written. The EU is reshaping its housing future through the Affordable Housing Dialogue, the first European Affordable Housing Plan, the Affordable Housing Initiative, and the New European Bauhaus, which reimagines places that are sustainable, beautiful and inclusive.

At the heart of this transformation stands the Build Better Lives campaign, coordinated by CAN Europe. Bringing together over 95 organisations from across housing, social justice, youth, and climate movements, it calls for renovation that delivers affordable, energy-efficient, and people-centred homes.

In this episode, Erman Erogan shares how renovation becomes powerful when it moves beyond walls — when it starts with people and spreads across neighbourhoods: “This is more than just adding a layer of insulation. This talks about your home, your comfort place, your relationship with your neighbours and your community.”

Erman explains why district-level renovation can accelerate the energy transition and strengthen local trust. Drawing from cases across the EU, he shows how integrated planning can combine energy efficiency, affordability, and inclusion.

“A good 40 percent of all waste generated in Europe is building waste. We need a culture shift that makes renovation the norm.”

We discuss how circular construction, reuse of materials, and fair labour conditions can make the upcoming EU policies deliver lasting change. From Swedish projects that trained residents to German schemes that froze heating costs, the conversation reveals what equitable renovation looks like in practice.

For Erman, success depends on aligning EU frameworks around ambition and justice. The goal: better buildings that create better neighbourhoods, and better neighbourhoods that sustain better lives.

European Citizens' Initiative HouseEurope! Power to Renovation

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Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Many people share the same problematics, many share the different ones, so there is a potential of, first of all, understanding better the problem, because all individual experiences will strengthen the outcome of the district and neighbourhood projects.
Speaker #1
The energy transition is happening, but is it fair? Is it working for people like you and me, or just for big market players? Welcome to Energetic. I am Mayenne Cornelis, an expert in energy and climate policies, and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. Activists, scientists, policymakers, the real people making real change, often against the odds. Here, we do not settle for surface level takes. We dig into the challenges, the solutions and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. And in doing so, we rediscover something vital. Our ability to trust in institutions, to believe in change, and to reclaim our power to act. Because if we want just resilience, if we want just transition, we need to understand what it takes to make it happen.
Speaker #0
And more importantly, we need to believe that we can. Let's get into it.
Speaker #1
Europe is running out of time to fix cold, costly and inefficient homes. Energy bills bite. Rents keep rising, cities struggle to deliver decent affordable places to live. The EU has now the tools and the attention, in particular the affordable housing dialogue, shaping the first urban affordable housing plan in 2025, the affordable housing initiative with its lighthouse districts, and the new urban house vision for places that are sustainable, beautiful and inclusive. This is why we are back with the Build Better Lives. The campaign gathers more than 95 groups from housing, social justice, climate and youth. It pushes for a renovation that cuts bills, improves comfort and strengthens communities. The new Energy Performance of Building Directive, EPBD, recognizes district and neighborhood approaches. And member states now have to turn that into plans and projects that people can feel at home. So today, my guest is Herman. the policy and campaign officer at CanEurope and co-coordinator of Build Better Lives. He knows Brussels level policy and on the ground delivery. So we will look at what works when cities scale renovation by district, protect tenants and design with people from day one. We will also talk about what the urban affordable housing plan must deliver. So 2026 does not arrive with promise. only on paper. Herman, welcome to the show.
Speaker #0
Hi, Marine. Thanks for having me.
Speaker #1
So you've been working both at EU level advocacy and also at the local level with some renovation projects. So what drew you personally to these challenges of building renovation?
Speaker #0
Yeah, so as a starter, it was quite a surprise because I was initially working more on environmental issues. And through environmental issues, it trickled down to one of the main topics of environmental issues, which is buildings. And through times, I also saw how this is part of a broader problem that is basically the part we spend most of our times, which is our homes. And also through opportunities that I found, as you said, I worked in local projects here in Brussels, where the idea of the projects was... gathering collective efforts around renovation and through this effort that was quite participative there was a lot of door-to-door knocking you could quite quickly see that this is more than just adding a layer of insulation yeah this um this talks about your home this talks about your comfort place and it also talks about your relationship with your neighbors with your community and That's also why it's interesting to talk about district and neighbourhood, because it is a collective problem in how it happens. Many people share the same problematics, many share the different ones, so there is a potential of first of all understanding better the problem, because all individual experiences will strengthen the outcome of the district and neighbourhood projects, and there's also a way of strengthening the existing organisations.
Speaker #1
That's great. So how come you started working exactly on this, knowing that you were working on climate first and environment policies? Because, I mean, of course, you probably like you were raised in Paris, if I'm not mistaken. So now you live in Brussels. So you've seen a lot of differences from these two places as well.
Speaker #0
Yes, and in between there was also, actually I was brought up in Turkey. I was born in France, but grew up in Turkey. Yeah, I think initially the interest over environmental issues obviously came from a bit the places I lived. Initially, maybe it was not buildings that was seen as the most pressing issue for me growing up in Istanbul, where really you see through transport and infrastructure as a place, urban areas take. but you also understand that the built environment grows and grows every more and gets into conflict with the environment. And also as part of my studies I dived more into environmental issues and ended up working on energy efficiency through the links were quite made quite organically.
Speaker #1
Yeah I mean I totally imagine how growing up in Istanbul really like shapes your view on the importance of neighborhood like the Like how it's a city that grows like so fast and there are so many buildings. Like the first time I was in Istanbul was maybe 20 years ago. And last time was maybe 10 years ago, but it has changed. It had changed already so much. And I guess that's what I would see today would be so different. So, I mean, it must make a certain impression to see not only like the hubs of, let's say, public transport, but also the private transport. The maritime transport as well, which is something many European cities are kind of forgetting, the maritime transport, how important that can be. And then all these new buildings that need resources, that need to become really part of a certain neighborhood. And still, whenever you dig something in Istanbul, you find other traces of previous civilizations, right? So that must be really quite something. I'm pretty sure that after this conversation you will have this kind of aha moment where you realize that the two are so interconnected. Now I think about it for instance, I think of like you know the big stones in Istanbul that are there to kind of prevent the land from sliding and some of them are actually columns from Greek and Roman temples right so that shows really how the environment and the builds and the buildings.
Speaker #0
do uh mingle yeah uh also with the mix of heritage and identity and also with this also more contemporary issues of security building seeing as a security there are many conflicting contexts in istanbul for example you have this pending issue of earthquakes uh it's constantly in people's mind and um so yeah you also grow up with this idea that my building should be resilient. My body should be safe. Also, feeding. You are in contact of always some tragic news from homemade heating because people don't have access to clean heating. And also visually you see the conflicts of a city that is ever growing without much social safeguards. Basically, you see slum neighborhoods being bought in, evicted and fancy new neighborhoods coming under their place in quite shocking. speedy times yeah so i think yeah actually wiped out yeah yeah diving back you see a lot of issues that now we talk about when we talk about the affordable housing plan that were ever present that you experience in a way maybe you realize them afterwards because yeah i was i was a kid when i was there but it's they were there and they're pretty much issues that we need to get our experience from and let them enrich us for us not to make the same mistakes
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really, really interesting. But I mean, in this kind of new report, new work that you've been producing, you've been calling for moving beyond the building by building approach, like more district approach, district level renovation. So, I mean, you mentioned this absolutely terrible case of neighborhood, slum neighborhoods, but still neighborhoods and communities being completely wiped out to build new fancy properties. But. Pretty certain there are other examples where such a drastic solution has not been implemented, right? And where the new food becomes resilient, you use this term, and it's not only one building that survives, but really the rest of the buildings as well.
Speaker #0
The idea was to dive into more of this. We've been hearing about this neighborhood approaches for a while now. We've been seeing also that the renovation wave, as we call it, is not picking up the pace we want. and and We've been also hearing that There are many benefits of going to a broader scale, economies of scale, also maybe mobilizing more individuals. And so we decided to have a look at it, have a look at, OK, what are we talking about? What's already happening? What can we learn from these experiences? And yeah, what principles can we have from these experiences? Because obviously, I think it's maybe the most context dependent approach to go in a neighborhood and to look. what you have and to try ways to include and to carry on these projects. So maybe there was multiple questions and in the report we try also to identify if maybe key problematics some of these projects answer or don't answer to. Some of them being more social issues, some of them being more environmental issues. Obviously they're all interlinked, but in some cases it's about integrating renewable energy. to energy efficiency improvements in some cases about affordability so really trying to have measures that makes this change and this transition affordable another one that is quite linked but is also in itself different is inclusion inclusion and participation how much of these processes include as decision makers the the inhabitants and the citizens how much of this design actually allow for a transition that avoids this kind of erasing a whole neighborhood and putting a new one that is maybe energy-wise very performative but socially it's not what we want and also another issue that we wanted to tackle is circularity because we so basically our buildings that are built today or that were built 10 years ago they're going to be standing for 50 to 100 years and for the new ones we need to think about what do we do with the waste? Because currently... A good 40% of all waste generated in Europe is buildings, built environment waste.
Speaker #1
50%?
Speaker #0
40%.
Speaker #1
Wow.
Speaker #0
38, 40%.
Speaker #1
Wow, that's still enormous.
Speaker #0
That's enormous. And it really depends on which countries in terms of how the economy is shaped. I think in France, it's even more important. So yeah, it's a big block. And if we do new builds, which in some cases might be justified, I think there are ways to see. Where is it justified? And we need to ask the right questions in terms of, well, what is the whole life carbon effect of this compared to using vacant spaces? So we really wanted to have cases where you also have this question of circularity and also, if not circularity, sufficiency through exploiting vacant spaces and using this as an opportunity as well. As an example in Germany, where this was a way also to regenerate the neighborhood that was a bit left apart.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's really interesting. And a full disclaimer, I actually work for the European Commission on the New European Bauhaus Initiative. I'm one of the 12 members of the New European Bauhaus Facility Expert Group. So it's basically a system that will help kind of scale up the New European Bauhaus Initiatives. So we are looking into financing tools, etc. And this question of circularity really came up. up recently in our discussions because we also noticed that there are so many problems with like the kind of value that is given to circularity as if in a way it were kind of I mean of course building costs a lot of money but dismantling also costs a lot of money but they are never like put at the same page and whenever you want to build something Thanks. You may not receive the same amount of money if the product you source or if the material you source is something circular and comes from a previous project or if it's something completely new. So there's a big question out there. How do we kind of level, make sure that we integrate more of this refurbished project, refurbished sourced materials? I'm not a construction expert, but... like it's what i understand like it feels like a very important conversation to have and again i think we go back to this the shores of of of istanbul and like using the stones and the columns but yes yeah man you want to do it some things yeah exactly i wanted to i think that on that specific topic there is kind of a bad dependency on when we thought about these rules
Speaker #0
to encourage construction and the moment we are in right now and the actual questions that we're aware of i think that the question of circularity or new construction versus renovating existing space and also acknowledging the existing spaces to a certain extent, mostly enough for what we need. We're not a question when we, you know, gave incentives on VATs for demolition compared to renovation. Just maybe would like to mention here the European Citizen Initiative that House Europe is carrying today. They're trying to gather up a million signatures and also with different thresholds in countries to basically address this issue and to make renovation the norm and to And to make sure that, yeah, we're not completely all encouraging without any limits new construction. And that actually this becomes kind of a culture shift. And that's, you know, in different projects, this become the go-to mental scheme of going and going for renovation and thinking about, OK, how do you renovate heritage? How do you renovate heritage using the same rocks? Actually, maybe you need to adapt some structures, but you use the same rocks of the buildings that were. part of a very old building in the french example of uh you had this example of it was quite old barracks if i'm not missing 16th century 17 that was left-leaf taking that at some point was used by the military but was left vacant because they didn't have the use of it and there is kind of an we were talking about the identity and heritage of buildings there is kind of a fascinating approach of this you know saying that we use some of the same bricks that's
Speaker #1
were there and these buildings maybe their shape changed a bit because you know their use changed the the period changed but we still you know use those rocks yeah yeah yeah and they are so so much of this material that has good uh let's say uh properties that could be because of course we're not talking about using reusing albastos and this kind of thing but really it's it's more like Like the stones, if you use stones, I mean, that's just like... ways that can make it interesting and what I find kind of interesting in what you are telling me and I must say it's completely new for me is that I see like one of my guilty pleasure is to watch people renovate their home like on Instagram I follow a lot of people who renovate their home etc and I would never be able to do that but I find it really cool and so many of these people are, I see them like trying to... make ends meet by, of course, learning new techniques and so on, but also by learning techniques from, let's say, self-renovation techniques by some experts and so on, but also trying to reuse as much as possible because they want to save on cost because they are doing things themselves. So they find it cheaper. But at the same time now, you've been telling me that it's like absolutely not the norm when we are talking about big ensembles right it's like In a way, it's fine for your little DIY project, but it's not when we are talking big infrastructures. Whereas at the same time, since you have this kind of neighborhood approach, like beyond the building, district level, etc. That would be also kind of so nice if people could gather together to build something with techniques they learned from their peers and from... like wisdom they heard from previous generations.
Speaker #0
One of the examples that we saw, so the example in Sweden, one of the interesting part of it was that you had a special procurement where it included conditions for the construction company to include some of the residents, which was it was a precarious neighborhood and there was a lot of unemployment and use this project to kind of train the citizens include them in the construction and relation of the of the housing there so there are some ideas to take there i'm not saying the project has done perfectly and so there was also the contracts was were a year contract maybe could have been longer but at the result of it there's most of these uh employed citizens train themselves and enter new careers and i think there is something there of thinking about when we do this district and neighborhood approaches, where is the community benefit sharing agreements that we have? So once we said that we have a dedicated funding scheme for these kind of projects, which is also to be defined, which is the funding scheme of these projects, which after will come a bit of who are the leading drivers of these projects and how we should reflect on that. But having specific agreements with participative approaches where we look at what we have, include the existing actors, but also proactively try to find the ones that are not usually around the table. well define collectively the benefit agreements for example say that we identify there is this issues or these opportunities and we collectively decide to say okay let's let's make most of the people that are used to renovate their homes by themselves and use this knowledge because I believe that there are many of those that we that actually like lose themselves between the cracks because they're maybe never communicated and doesn't mean they don't exist and i think that's something this could be something that is included in these approaches right and coming back to the drivers i think that one important thing is that i mean not up to me only to decide who they are but we see that many of these projects are led or are at least evolving. local municipal actors or administration. And that's maybe one big conclusion for these projects is that if you want to do district and neighborhood approaches, you need capacity. You need technical capacity. You need social capacity. You need also all the administration to help up with the permitting, with gathering up all the different information that you will have, because so far we've been talking about renovation, but our idea about district and renovation approaches district and neighbourhood innovation approaches, but also seeing these projects where other issues are also included. For example, there are some projects where within the planning of these projects, there is a broader thinking on mobility, there is a broader thinking on okay, what do you do with green spaces and the relationship with built environment and green spaces. Maybe we can include, if we do with district and neighbourhood innovation approaches, we can include considerations on adaptation and all the issues we will have in terms of passive cooling and the rules of what was it one one ten hundred you should see no three thirty three hundred you should see three trees from your home have access to i don't remember the whole rule but kind
Speaker #1
of applying this yeah yeah that's that's really interesting like this idea of having like champion that is already recognized by the community if it's the mayor or like the, let's say the... the mayoral team because it shouldn't at the same time I think we need to be kind of aware or that it has to be a project that the community embraces and when if there is a political change it still keeps on being embraced by the by the the next municipal team as well like it's not like only one one the project of the mayor or something like that I mean talking about France I remember terrible projects where, you know, you had this kind of mayors who wanted to leave a mark and, you know, they built like in the 80s or 90s, maybe even more recently, I don't know, but they wanted to leave their footprint in their community. So they approved a completely, let's say, extravagant project because they wanted to be remembered for something. And I guess that, you know, that's not the kind of project we're talking about. We are talking about things that make a difference for the community and the people who are. were actually there. So there is this kind of long-term vision, long-term project, etc. And maybe for that I have another, let's say, counter example from France as well, like the mayor of Bordeaux, the city where I come from, but they have been having this project to equip all the municipal buildings with solar panels to make sure that they are completely provided with with the renewable energy and it's their big plans for the years to come. So I think it's also quite a long-term sustainable vision for the city as well.
Speaker #0
And also, yeah, maybe one point of seeing as a district we haven't talked about is that in some cases, what exists in terms of heating systems are district-based. And we also think that it's a good approach to include in the different planning tools that we'll have. that municipality will have to use. So we have kind of a good collection of different planning tools that comes from the EU framework that municipalities and also regions and also states will have to come up with. And we believe that these should be done in a way that there is consistency, there is coherence. We, while with member states do their national building renovation plans, it's going to be the big plans where they really try to come up with the different policy and measures and the targets. to go towards a neutral built environment climate neutral environment we believe that within this other planning tools such as local heating and cooling plans that comes from the energy efficiency directive also social climate plans that tries to anticipate the it is to uh mechanism for vulnerable households all of these should be thinking in a way that it
Speaker #1
makes sense right yeah that's interesting that you mentioned the social climate plan and the social climate fund in a way because uh You've been highlighting the importance of affordability and social safeguards. I mean, it's quite a constant within Energetik to talk about these two topics. So what kind of best practice are you seeing where, you know, the renovation does not lead to displacement or renovation? Like, is it like rent caps? You mentioned already inclusive participation and some kind of employment opportunities as well. But it's a mixture. What has been working?
Speaker #0
yes so maybe that's the contentious issue of renovation projects right what happens after you have the renovation so i think it's in the examples we have we've seen quite some innovative approaches in terms of what happens when to include in terms of financing the different components of the projects for example the example in spain you have finance and there is tears you have the option to have 50 50 percent depending on your income you have the option to have a low interest rate and you have the option to basically not pay the renovation it's paid by the by the municipality and the other funds that they gathered because also noting that many of these projects they're very creative into combining different all sorts of financing and then it's linked to your registry and this financing will will stay on the registry so if you want to sell the pla your your apartment or your home at the sell point you pay the renovation costs that were there and so yeah it's quite ways to include different groups you have other ways as well and to come back to your questions uh we've seen examples uh part of the examples we analyzed some of them we've seen that they haven't worked so well they didn't have rent caps and so there was some substantial price increase i'm talking about the example in sweden So that's something we highlighted in the example in terms of... There has been quite some positive social changes, but with always maybe the consideration around the timeline in terms of what are the more structural tendencies that might emerge when you have such a project, which ends up being quite an increase in the rent. but we also have other cases, the case in Germany where you have a rent control mechanism and where there was also some Some of the money was used to freeze the cost of heating, where we really saw that there is a will to include this rent neutrality principle, which is if there are renovations, there should be a rent neutrality, meaning that maybe the costs of rent are combined with utility bills and that the money you would earn from the efficiency does not use to increase the rent. Yeah. But obviously other examples exist that maybe were not there, which are using social housing, which is part of the case in the French case, where you have systems to adapt the rent according to the revenue, which is, I think it should be key when we talk about rent eviction is actually adapt the housing to the person that is within the housing and accept the idea that when someone is a tenant and they have some sort of property of usage that gives them a certain rights to be deciding what do they do with their house. Because we shouldn't be against mobility. Mobility has always been a part of tenants' needs changing life. But it becomes problematic where this is at the expense of the tenant. And so I think that rent prices that are according to revenues, but also to a broader, when you open up to the broader market, brand caps and rent control mechanisms have seen we've seen their benefits but i would like to say that i don't think they're enough as the only mechanism if you want really want true true inclusion because first of all it means that you need to have a rent control mechanism everywhere because you obviously could have these competing dynamics and that also to really have a project that is embraced by everyone brand control would only bring so much so inclusion and that you need to complement it with all the governance issues that we mentioned.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's interesting what you're suggesting as well, because one of the biggest problems we have now in Europe is we may not have enough quality housing. And let's say that many people are also struggling with the size of their dwelling, knowing that at the same time you have maybe older populations who live with
Speaker #0
too large building and too large housing compared to their actual need but it was like impossible to to say to anyone now it's time to move and to leave your your your big house to to a family i mean that's that's really not something anyone aspires for but if if we take a very let's say uh pragmatic and cold eye on on this situation that's that's also a reality exactly and i think I think that...
Speaker #1
Before we arrive to the point where it really becomes the only solution to say we need to intervene and find more drastic approaches. I think that we need to find ways to give more options and flexibility for these maybe mismatches between the needs and the demand we have. By trying to find ways of, first of all, optimizing how we use our built environment. because if we don't have a... built environment that functions in a way that gives answer the needs by this i mean the vacant housing that we have the under occupation that we have if we don't have the legal system and the the facilitation to allow these kind of changes to adapt itself it's very difficult to take someone that you are gonna change apartments but we don't really know where and it's not really quality housing because as you said there's a problem of we don't have enough quality housing we also need to Apart from access to housing, its affordability, we also have an issue of quality housing. And how do we combine these in a way that we don't move people for... There should be maybe a principle of you can only go to more quality housing and you cannot be downgraded. And also, apart from the primary principle, that should be that everybody has a roof that is decent.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And maybe that if you are moved because another family needs your apartment, you stay in the same neighborhood, right? Because that can be completely like really breaking the social fabric if you treat people and housing like assets, right? It's not that. And that's exactly what this kind of district level renovation like. Embracing the people reality really stands for it. But now let's go to the European level and this European affordable housing plan. In many ways, it could be some kind of a game changer. So how would success look like from your perspective?
Speaker #1
I think that what we use at EU level is quite a mysterious plan because EU normally doesn't talk about housing. It's not more progressive. But by the pass, indirectly, it has been talking about housing. It has been talking about the efficiency of buildings, the heating they put, all the products they use. So, indirectly, housing has been touched. But yeah, I think there are many things that can still be done and that we would like to be done. Meaning, first of all, I think that the plan should... really try to find ways that enables that the current framework goes for ambition and just justice. That when we implement the current framework, we think about housing. Basically, for example, what this could be could be guidance on how the National Building Renovation Plans should be a way to include consideration on energy poverty and housing exclusion in a way that they should be designed so that they're complementary with the housing crisis and not contradictory. which if they're ill-designed it might happen another issue is really trying to find the framework that is offered by the commission and also some financial assistance to really as i said optimize our current building stock finding ways first of all to have systematic data because we have data on vacant housing but it's not so systematized everywhere we don't have I mean, we could have this data by proxy using energy performance, but we should have a framework that allows that, first of all, the public vacant housing is leading by example. This could be a framework that really... gives guidance on how member states use capacity to basically don't have any vacant public housing when we have a housing crisis, where we also understand better and have data on what is a vacant space, what are the different reasons, what is under occupation and what is conversion potential, so that we all see the places where it's justified to have vacant spaces or under occupied spaces. But in the meantime, we should not wait for data to arrive to act because there is a housing crisis. And we should use the financing that we're going to have, maybe MFF, maybe the European Pan-Investment Platform, to channel some of those funds into renovation and repurposing of these vacant and under-occupied spaces. And also, in some cases, energy-efficient new construction. I think there should also be a guidance on how to prioritize what we mean by new construction, by repurposing and renovation. I think there is a big topic there. There is also part of the Build Better Lives campaign in terms of the environmental organization, housing organizations. These are topics where there is potential conflict and where there is to be a maybe more broader consideration of how do we prioritize, because one should not be at the spite of the other. And another topic is how do we use the EU level to make this transition fair for our workers? Because one also important factor for these projects to happen are the workers. And so far, that's something we've been hearing that we lack skilled forces. Also, not only we lack skilled forces, but that the labor forces that are supposed to drive this, they need to adapt to new techniques which is positive could be seen as something positive for the EU but also they needed we need to adapt our rules for these conditions working conditions to be fair to be safe and to observe what's not working in terms of sub-granting maybe in some cases there are many sub-grantings that are for creating situation where there's injustice maybe the plan is a place to tackle those. to ensure that if we want an affordable housing plan, we should have all of these three, so affordable housing, with the right conditions for labourers, workers.
Speaker #0
Yeah, that sounds so fundamental. And at the same time, yeah, the workers tend to be very overlooked, their needs, like whatever the season, the fact that they need training on new techniques. I mean, we talked about self-renovation earlier, but yeah, it's also about, I mean, I think the workers have been so overlooked in the past probably 50 years. Earlier they might have been more like prestige in being a construction worker, but let's be honest, they have been suffering from a kind of a bad image, bad reputation. So how do we make younger generations want to engage in also in this kind of careers? I think it's one of the big topics though. It's really part of building better lives as a conversation starter, right? So we are reaching the end of our visit. So can you tell me just a little more, how will Build Better Lives evolve in the years to come? What kind of topic are you going to address? And yeah, if our listeners want to engage a little bit more, what can they do?
Speaker #1
So as I said, we're a European campaign, So there's going to be maybe... if not more, because also things happen, that things change compared to what you plan, but at least two streams of work that we're going to carry. So one of them is maybe more EU level with our different partners on the affordable housing plan, but not only made broader on the topic of housing and what the EU does about it and what are the different policies. So there, one important consideration would be to, as with everything that we basically just talked, that these... These are designed in a way that is complementary with our climate objectives, because climate objectives are also health objectives in the long term, and in some cases not only so much in the long term, also currently. And another work stream will be more, well, implementing all of the things that we've decided these past years. And with this, we're going to work with our national members, because we have, with the campaign, we have identified five focal points, we call them. So... France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Poland. We're going to be working closely with our members there and doing activities and... trying to find the best ways to work on national building renovation plans. So we're going to, first of all, try to have these plans ready at the right time. So we're going to engage with different policymakers for these plans, not to be just plans that stay there in an administration in a closet and that are not applied. So asking for ambition and social justice. and we're going to try once we have them to analyze them with our members and to see what can be done better there it's going to be also maybe a dual effort between the member state level but also the commission that needs to review them and give them their assessment so yeah they're basically going to be the two work streams i'm sure things are going to pop in i'm sure there's going to be a lot of things changing but yeah we're going to keep also trying to reach out to different organizations that work on the same topic. And we're also... Something that I forgot to say at the beginning is that the report is part of a broad work that we're doing and trying to collect inspiring stories. And this is a running exercise we're trying to do because hopefully we hope that there's going to be more and more examples that will come in front of us with time. So this is also something that we will continue doing. I'd like to say thanks to everyone that gives time and information. allow us to have access to these inspiring stories because we're just gathering them and they're actually carrying out the stories and uh through this help we wouldn't have anything so yeah so yeah it's always important to acknowledge absolutely
Speaker #0
i must say they are also very useful for the work of the uh new year in the house facility expert group and by the way there There is a... The New Europe and Bauhaus Festival will happen mid-June 2026. And yeah, that would actually be fantastic if the World of Better Lives could be there as well. It's going to be in Brussels.
Speaker #1
Bringing some of the examples, yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah, exactly, exactly. That would be really amazing. So I think we need more cooperation and more dialogue.
Speaker #1
Let's take a call message.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Thank you so much, Armand.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Cornelis, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer. And it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes, and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.

Chapters

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness
0sec
Understanding Urban Housing Challenges
1min
Guest Introduction: Herman from CanEurope
2min
Personal Journey into Building Renovation
2min
Collective Approaches to Neighborhood Renovation
4min
Moving Beyond Individual Building Solutions
8min
Circularity and Building Waste Management
11min
Community Engagement and Capacity Building
21min
The European Affordable Housing Plan
32min
Conclusion and Future Directions
41min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Hosted by Marine Cornelis, Energ’Ethic brings together policymakers, regulators, industry leaders, city practitioners, researchers, and civil society voices to examine what makes energy transitions succeed—or fail—in the real world.

Beyond technology and targets, the podcast focuses on trust, power, consumer rights, digitalisation, and energy justice. Each conversation connects policy and market design with lived experience, unpacking how decisions taken in boardrooms and institutions translate into everyday realities for people and communities.

Energ’Ethic is not about slogans or quick fixes. It is a space for rigorous, grounded conversations about resilience, legitimacy, and the social conditions required for lasting climate and energy strategies.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Erman Erogan, Policy and Campaign Officer at CAN Europe, joins Energ’Ethic to discuss the Build Better Lives campaign and Europe’s race to deliver affordable, energy-efficient homes.

“A good 40 percent of all waste generated in Europe is building waste. We need a culture shift that makes renovation the norm.”

For Erman, success depends on aligning EU frameworks around ambition and justice. The goal: better buildings that create better neighbourhoods, and better neighbourhoods that sustain better lives.

European Citizens' Initiative HouseEurope! Power to Renovation

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

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Reach out to Marine Cornelis via BlueSky or LinkedIn
Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

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Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Many people share the same problematics, many share the different ones, so there is a potential of, first of all, understanding better the problem, because all individual experiences will strengthen the outcome of the district and neighbourhood projects.
Speaker #1
The energy transition is happening, but is it fair? Is it working for people like you and me, or just for big market players? Welcome to Energetic. I am Mayenne Cornelis, an expert in energy and climate policies, and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. Activists, scientists, policymakers, the real people making real change, often against the odds. Here, we do not settle for surface level takes. We dig into the challenges, the solutions and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. And in doing so, we rediscover something vital. Our ability to trust in institutions, to believe in change, and to reclaim our power to act. Because if we want just resilience, if we want just transition, we need to understand what it takes to make it happen.
Speaker #0
And more importantly, we need to believe that we can. Let's get into it.
Speaker #1
Europe is running out of time to fix cold, costly and inefficient homes. Energy bills bite. Rents keep rising, cities struggle to deliver decent affordable places to live. The EU has now the tools and the attention, in particular the affordable housing dialogue, shaping the first urban affordable housing plan in 2025, the affordable housing initiative with its lighthouse districts, and the new urban house vision for places that are sustainable, beautiful and inclusive. This is why we are back with the Build Better Lives. The campaign gathers more than 95 groups from housing, social justice, climate and youth. It pushes for a renovation that cuts bills, improves comfort and strengthens communities. The new Energy Performance of Building Directive, EPBD, recognizes district and neighborhood approaches. And member states now have to turn that into plans and projects that people can feel at home. So today, my guest is Herman. the policy and campaign officer at CanEurope and co-coordinator of Build Better Lives. He knows Brussels level policy and on the ground delivery. So we will look at what works when cities scale renovation by district, protect tenants and design with people from day one. We will also talk about what the urban affordable housing plan must deliver. So 2026 does not arrive with promise. only on paper. Herman, welcome to the show.
Speaker #0
Hi, Marine. Thanks for having me.
Speaker #1
So you've been working both at EU level advocacy and also at the local level with some renovation projects. So what drew you personally to these challenges of building renovation?
Speaker #0
Yeah, so as a starter, it was quite a surprise because I was initially working more on environmental issues. And through environmental issues, it trickled down to one of the main topics of environmental issues, which is buildings. And through times, I also saw how this is part of a broader problem that is basically the part we spend most of our times, which is our homes. And also through opportunities that I found, as you said, I worked in local projects here in Brussels, where the idea of the projects was... gathering collective efforts around renovation and through this effort that was quite participative there was a lot of door-to-door knocking you could quite quickly see that this is more than just adding a layer of insulation yeah this um this talks about your home this talks about your comfort place and it also talks about your relationship with your neighbors with your community and That's also why it's interesting to talk about district and neighbourhood, because it is a collective problem in how it happens. Many people share the same problematics, many share the different ones, so there is a potential of first of all understanding better the problem, because all individual experiences will strengthen the outcome of the district and neighbourhood projects, and there's also a way of strengthening the existing organisations.
Speaker #1
That's great. So how come you started working exactly on this, knowing that you were working on climate first and environment policies? Because, I mean, of course, you probably like you were raised in Paris, if I'm not mistaken. So now you live in Brussels. So you've seen a lot of differences from these two places as well.
Speaker #0
Yes, and in between there was also, actually I was brought up in Turkey. I was born in France, but grew up in Turkey. Yeah, I think initially the interest over environmental issues obviously came from a bit the places I lived. Initially, maybe it was not buildings that was seen as the most pressing issue for me growing up in Istanbul, where really you see through transport and infrastructure as a place, urban areas take. but you also understand that the built environment grows and grows every more and gets into conflict with the environment. And also as part of my studies I dived more into environmental issues and ended up working on energy efficiency through the links were quite made quite organically.
Speaker #1
Yeah I mean I totally imagine how growing up in Istanbul really like shapes your view on the importance of neighborhood like the Like how it's a city that grows like so fast and there are so many buildings. Like the first time I was in Istanbul was maybe 20 years ago. And last time was maybe 10 years ago, but it has changed. It had changed already so much. And I guess that's what I would see today would be so different. So, I mean, it must make a certain impression to see not only like the hubs of, let's say, public transport, but also the private transport. The maritime transport as well, which is something many European cities are kind of forgetting, the maritime transport, how important that can be. And then all these new buildings that need resources, that need to become really part of a certain neighborhood. And still, whenever you dig something in Istanbul, you find other traces of previous civilizations, right? So that must be really quite something. I'm pretty sure that after this conversation you will have this kind of aha moment where you realize that the two are so interconnected. Now I think about it for instance, I think of like you know the big stones in Istanbul that are there to kind of prevent the land from sliding and some of them are actually columns from Greek and Roman temples right so that shows really how the environment and the builds and the buildings.
Speaker #0
do uh mingle yeah uh also with the mix of heritage and identity and also with this also more contemporary issues of security building seeing as a security there are many conflicting contexts in istanbul for example you have this pending issue of earthquakes uh it's constantly in people's mind and um so yeah you also grow up with this idea that my building should be resilient. My body should be safe. Also, feeding. You are in contact of always some tragic news from homemade heating because people don't have access to clean heating. And also visually you see the conflicts of a city that is ever growing without much social safeguards. Basically, you see slum neighborhoods being bought in, evicted and fancy new neighborhoods coming under their place in quite shocking. speedy times yeah so i think yeah actually wiped out yeah yeah diving back you see a lot of issues that now we talk about when we talk about the affordable housing plan that were ever present that you experience in a way maybe you realize them afterwards because yeah i was i was a kid when i was there but it's they were there and they're pretty much issues that we need to get our experience from and let them enrich us for us not to make the same mistakes
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really, really interesting. But I mean, in this kind of new report, new work that you've been producing, you've been calling for moving beyond the building by building approach, like more district approach, district level renovation. So, I mean, you mentioned this absolutely terrible case of neighborhood, slum neighborhoods, but still neighborhoods and communities being completely wiped out to build new fancy properties. But. Pretty certain there are other examples where such a drastic solution has not been implemented, right? And where the new food becomes resilient, you use this term, and it's not only one building that survives, but really the rest of the buildings as well.
Speaker #0
The idea was to dive into more of this. We've been hearing about this neighborhood approaches for a while now. We've been seeing also that the renovation wave, as we call it, is not picking up the pace we want. and and We've been also hearing that There are many benefits of going to a broader scale, economies of scale, also maybe mobilizing more individuals. And so we decided to have a look at it, have a look at, OK, what are we talking about? What's already happening? What can we learn from these experiences? And yeah, what principles can we have from these experiences? Because obviously, I think it's maybe the most context dependent approach to go in a neighborhood and to look. what you have and to try ways to include and to carry on these projects. So maybe there was multiple questions and in the report we try also to identify if maybe key problematics some of these projects answer or don't answer to. Some of them being more social issues, some of them being more environmental issues. Obviously they're all interlinked, but in some cases it's about integrating renewable energy. to energy efficiency improvements in some cases about affordability so really trying to have measures that makes this change and this transition affordable another one that is quite linked but is also in itself different is inclusion inclusion and participation how much of these processes include as decision makers the the inhabitants and the citizens how much of this design actually allow for a transition that avoids this kind of erasing a whole neighborhood and putting a new one that is maybe energy-wise very performative but socially it's not what we want and also another issue that we wanted to tackle is circularity because we so basically our buildings that are built today or that were built 10 years ago they're going to be standing for 50 to 100 years and for the new ones we need to think about what do we do with the waste? Because currently... A good 40% of all waste generated in Europe is buildings, built environment waste.
Speaker #1
50%?
Speaker #0
40%.
Speaker #1
Wow.
Speaker #0
38, 40%.
Speaker #1
Wow, that's still enormous.
Speaker #0
That's enormous. And it really depends on which countries in terms of how the economy is shaped. I think in France, it's even more important. So yeah, it's a big block. And if we do new builds, which in some cases might be justified, I think there are ways to see. Where is it justified? And we need to ask the right questions in terms of, well, what is the whole life carbon effect of this compared to using vacant spaces? So we really wanted to have cases where you also have this question of circularity and also, if not circularity, sufficiency through exploiting vacant spaces and using this as an opportunity as well. As an example in Germany, where this was a way also to regenerate the neighborhood that was a bit left apart.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's really interesting. And a full disclaimer, I actually work for the European Commission on the New European Bauhaus Initiative. I'm one of the 12 members of the New European Bauhaus Facility Expert Group. So it's basically a system that will help kind of scale up the New European Bauhaus Initiatives. So we are looking into financing tools, etc. And this question of circularity really came up. up recently in our discussions because we also noticed that there are so many problems with like the kind of value that is given to circularity as if in a way it were kind of I mean of course building costs a lot of money but dismantling also costs a lot of money but they are never like put at the same page and whenever you want to build something Thanks. You may not receive the same amount of money if the product you source or if the material you source is something circular and comes from a previous project or if it's something completely new. So there's a big question out there. How do we kind of level, make sure that we integrate more of this refurbished project, refurbished sourced materials? I'm not a construction expert, but... like it's what i understand like it feels like a very important conversation to have and again i think we go back to this the shores of of of istanbul and like using the stones and the columns but yes yeah man you want to do it some things yeah exactly i wanted to i think that on that specific topic there is kind of a bad dependency on when we thought about these rules
Speaker #0
to encourage construction and the moment we are in right now and the actual questions that we're aware of i think that the question of circularity or new construction versus renovating existing space and also acknowledging the existing spaces to a certain extent, mostly enough for what we need. We're not a question when we, you know, gave incentives on VATs for demolition compared to renovation. Just maybe would like to mention here the European Citizen Initiative that House Europe is carrying today. They're trying to gather up a million signatures and also with different thresholds in countries to basically address this issue and to make renovation the norm and to And to make sure that, yeah, we're not completely all encouraging without any limits new construction. And that actually this becomes kind of a culture shift. And that's, you know, in different projects, this become the go-to mental scheme of going and going for renovation and thinking about, OK, how do you renovate heritage? How do you renovate heritage using the same rocks? Actually, maybe you need to adapt some structures, but you use the same rocks of the buildings that were. part of a very old building in the french example of uh you had this example of it was quite old barracks if i'm not missing 16th century 17 that was left-leaf taking that at some point was used by the military but was left vacant because they didn't have the use of it and there is kind of an we were talking about the identity and heritage of buildings there is kind of a fascinating approach of this you know saying that we use some of the same bricks that's
Speaker #1
were there and these buildings maybe their shape changed a bit because you know their use changed the the period changed but we still you know use those rocks yeah yeah yeah and they are so so much of this material that has good uh let's say uh properties that could be because of course we're not talking about using reusing albastos and this kind of thing but really it's it's more like Like the stones, if you use stones, I mean, that's just like... ways that can make it interesting and what I find kind of interesting in what you are telling me and I must say it's completely new for me is that I see like one of my guilty pleasure is to watch people renovate their home like on Instagram I follow a lot of people who renovate their home etc and I would never be able to do that but I find it really cool and so many of these people are, I see them like trying to... make ends meet by, of course, learning new techniques and so on, but also by learning techniques from, let's say, self-renovation techniques by some experts and so on, but also trying to reuse as much as possible because they want to save on cost because they are doing things themselves. So they find it cheaper. But at the same time now, you've been telling me that it's like absolutely not the norm when we are talking about big ensembles right it's like In a way, it's fine for your little DIY project, but it's not when we are talking big infrastructures. Whereas at the same time, since you have this kind of neighborhood approach, like beyond the building, district level, etc. That would be also kind of so nice if people could gather together to build something with techniques they learned from their peers and from... like wisdom they heard from previous generations.
Speaker #0
One of the examples that we saw, so the example in Sweden, one of the interesting part of it was that you had a special procurement where it included conditions for the construction company to include some of the residents, which was it was a precarious neighborhood and there was a lot of unemployment and use this project to kind of train the citizens include them in the construction and relation of the of the housing there so there are some ideas to take there i'm not saying the project has done perfectly and so there was also the contracts was were a year contract maybe could have been longer but at the result of it there's most of these uh employed citizens train themselves and enter new careers and i think there is something there of thinking about when we do this district and neighborhood approaches, where is the community benefit sharing agreements that we have? So once we said that we have a dedicated funding scheme for these kind of projects, which is also to be defined, which is the funding scheme of these projects, which after will come a bit of who are the leading drivers of these projects and how we should reflect on that. But having specific agreements with participative approaches where we look at what we have, include the existing actors, but also proactively try to find the ones that are not usually around the table. well define collectively the benefit agreements for example say that we identify there is this issues or these opportunities and we collectively decide to say okay let's let's make most of the people that are used to renovate their homes by themselves and use this knowledge because I believe that there are many of those that we that actually like lose themselves between the cracks because they're maybe never communicated and doesn't mean they don't exist and i think that's something this could be something that is included in these approaches right and coming back to the drivers i think that one important thing is that i mean not up to me only to decide who they are but we see that many of these projects are led or are at least evolving. local municipal actors or administration. And that's maybe one big conclusion for these projects is that if you want to do district and neighborhood approaches, you need capacity. You need technical capacity. You need social capacity. You need also all the administration to help up with the permitting, with gathering up all the different information that you will have, because so far we've been talking about renovation, but our idea about district and renovation approaches district and neighbourhood innovation approaches, but also seeing these projects where other issues are also included. For example, there are some projects where within the planning of these projects, there is a broader thinking on mobility, there is a broader thinking on okay, what do you do with green spaces and the relationship with built environment and green spaces. Maybe we can include, if we do with district and neighbourhood innovation approaches, we can include considerations on adaptation and all the issues we will have in terms of passive cooling and the rules of what was it one one ten hundred you should see no three thirty three hundred you should see three trees from your home have access to i don't remember the whole rule but kind
Speaker #1
of applying this yeah yeah that's that's really interesting like this idea of having like champion that is already recognized by the community if it's the mayor or like the, let's say the... the mayoral team because it shouldn't at the same time I think we need to be kind of aware or that it has to be a project that the community embraces and when if there is a political change it still keeps on being embraced by the by the the next municipal team as well like it's not like only one one the project of the mayor or something like that I mean talking about France I remember terrible projects where, you know, you had this kind of mayors who wanted to leave a mark and, you know, they built like in the 80s or 90s, maybe even more recently, I don't know, but they wanted to leave their footprint in their community. So they approved a completely, let's say, extravagant project because they wanted to be remembered for something. And I guess that, you know, that's not the kind of project we're talking about. We are talking about things that make a difference for the community and the people who are. were actually there. So there is this kind of long-term vision, long-term project, etc. And maybe for that I have another, let's say, counter example from France as well, like the mayor of Bordeaux, the city where I come from, but they have been having this project to equip all the municipal buildings with solar panels to make sure that they are completely provided with with the renewable energy and it's their big plans for the years to come. So I think it's also quite a long-term sustainable vision for the city as well.
Speaker #0
And also, yeah, maybe one point of seeing as a district we haven't talked about is that in some cases, what exists in terms of heating systems are district-based. And we also think that it's a good approach to include in the different planning tools that we'll have. that municipality will have to use. So we have kind of a good collection of different planning tools that comes from the EU framework that municipalities and also regions and also states will have to come up with. And we believe that these should be done in a way that there is consistency, there is coherence. We, while with member states do their national building renovation plans, it's going to be the big plans where they really try to come up with the different policy and measures and the targets. to go towards a neutral built environment climate neutral environment we believe that within this other planning tools such as local heating and cooling plans that comes from the energy efficiency directive also social climate plans that tries to anticipate the it is to uh mechanism for vulnerable households all of these should be thinking in a way that it
Speaker #1
makes sense right yeah that's interesting that you mentioned the social climate plan and the social climate fund in a way because uh You've been highlighting the importance of affordability and social safeguards. I mean, it's quite a constant within Energetik to talk about these two topics. So what kind of best practice are you seeing where, you know, the renovation does not lead to displacement or renovation? Like, is it like rent caps? You mentioned already inclusive participation and some kind of employment opportunities as well. But it's a mixture. What has been working?
Speaker #0
yes so maybe that's the contentious issue of renovation projects right what happens after you have the renovation so i think it's in the examples we have we've seen quite some innovative approaches in terms of what happens when to include in terms of financing the different components of the projects for example the example in spain you have finance and there is tears you have the option to have 50 50 percent depending on your income you have the option to have a low interest rate and you have the option to basically not pay the renovation it's paid by the by the municipality and the other funds that they gathered because also noting that many of these projects they're very creative into combining different all sorts of financing and then it's linked to your registry and this financing will will stay on the registry so if you want to sell the pla your your apartment or your home at the sell point you pay the renovation costs that were there and so yeah it's quite ways to include different groups you have other ways as well and to come back to your questions uh we've seen examples uh part of the examples we analyzed some of them we've seen that they haven't worked so well they didn't have rent caps and so there was some substantial price increase i'm talking about the example in sweden So that's something we highlighted in the example in terms of... There has been quite some positive social changes, but with always maybe the consideration around the timeline in terms of what are the more structural tendencies that might emerge when you have such a project, which ends up being quite an increase in the rent. but we also have other cases, the case in Germany where you have a rent control mechanism and where there was also some Some of the money was used to freeze the cost of heating, where we really saw that there is a will to include this rent neutrality principle, which is if there are renovations, there should be a rent neutrality, meaning that maybe the costs of rent are combined with utility bills and that the money you would earn from the efficiency does not use to increase the rent. Yeah. But obviously other examples exist that maybe were not there, which are using social housing, which is part of the case in the French case, where you have systems to adapt the rent according to the revenue, which is, I think it should be key when we talk about rent eviction is actually adapt the housing to the person that is within the housing and accept the idea that when someone is a tenant and they have some sort of property of usage that gives them a certain rights to be deciding what do they do with their house. Because we shouldn't be against mobility. Mobility has always been a part of tenants' needs changing life. But it becomes problematic where this is at the expense of the tenant. And so I think that rent prices that are according to revenues, but also to a broader, when you open up to the broader market, brand caps and rent control mechanisms have seen we've seen their benefits but i would like to say that i don't think they're enough as the only mechanism if you want really want true true inclusion because first of all it means that you need to have a rent control mechanism everywhere because you obviously could have these competing dynamics and that also to really have a project that is embraced by everyone brand control would only bring so much so inclusion and that you need to complement it with all the governance issues that we mentioned.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's interesting what you're suggesting as well, because one of the biggest problems we have now in Europe is we may not have enough quality housing. And let's say that many people are also struggling with the size of their dwelling, knowing that at the same time you have maybe older populations who live with
Speaker #0
too large building and too large housing compared to their actual need but it was like impossible to to say to anyone now it's time to move and to leave your your your big house to to a family i mean that's that's really not something anyone aspires for but if if we take a very let's say uh pragmatic and cold eye on on this situation that's that's also a reality exactly and i think I think that...
Speaker #1
Before we arrive to the point where it really becomes the only solution to say we need to intervene and find more drastic approaches. I think that we need to find ways to give more options and flexibility for these maybe mismatches between the needs and the demand we have. By trying to find ways of, first of all, optimizing how we use our built environment. because if we don't have a... built environment that functions in a way that gives answer the needs by this i mean the vacant housing that we have the under occupation that we have if we don't have the legal system and the the facilitation to allow these kind of changes to adapt itself it's very difficult to take someone that you are gonna change apartments but we don't really know where and it's not really quality housing because as you said there's a problem of we don't have enough quality housing we also need to Apart from access to housing, its affordability, we also have an issue of quality housing. And how do we combine these in a way that we don't move people for... There should be maybe a principle of you can only go to more quality housing and you cannot be downgraded. And also, apart from the primary principle, that should be that everybody has a roof that is decent.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. And maybe that if you are moved because another family needs your apartment, you stay in the same neighborhood, right? Because that can be completely like really breaking the social fabric if you treat people and housing like assets, right? It's not that. And that's exactly what this kind of district level renovation like. Embracing the people reality really stands for it. But now let's go to the European level and this European affordable housing plan. In many ways, it could be some kind of a game changer. So how would success look like from your perspective?
Speaker #1
I think that what we use at EU level is quite a mysterious plan because EU normally doesn't talk about housing. It's not more progressive. But by the pass, indirectly, it has been talking about housing. It has been talking about the efficiency of buildings, the heating they put, all the products they use. So, indirectly, housing has been touched. But yeah, I think there are many things that can still be done and that we would like to be done. Meaning, first of all, I think that the plan should... really try to find ways that enables that the current framework goes for ambition and just justice. That when we implement the current framework, we think about housing. Basically, for example, what this could be could be guidance on how the National Building Renovation Plans should be a way to include consideration on energy poverty and housing exclusion in a way that they should be designed so that they're complementary with the housing crisis and not contradictory. which if they're ill-designed it might happen another issue is really trying to find the framework that is offered by the commission and also some financial assistance to really as i said optimize our current building stock finding ways first of all to have systematic data because we have data on vacant housing but it's not so systematized everywhere we don't have I mean, we could have this data by proxy using energy performance, but we should have a framework that allows that, first of all, the public vacant housing is leading by example. This could be a framework that really... gives guidance on how member states use capacity to basically don't have any vacant public housing when we have a housing crisis, where we also understand better and have data on what is a vacant space, what are the different reasons, what is under occupation and what is conversion potential, so that we all see the places where it's justified to have vacant spaces or under occupied spaces. But in the meantime, we should not wait for data to arrive to act because there is a housing crisis. And we should use the financing that we're going to have, maybe MFF, maybe the European Pan-Investment Platform, to channel some of those funds into renovation and repurposing of these vacant and under-occupied spaces. And also, in some cases, energy-efficient new construction. I think there should also be a guidance on how to prioritize what we mean by new construction, by repurposing and renovation. I think there is a big topic there. There is also part of the Build Better Lives campaign in terms of the environmental organization, housing organizations. These are topics where there is potential conflict and where there is to be a maybe more broader consideration of how do we prioritize, because one should not be at the spite of the other. And another topic is how do we use the EU level to make this transition fair for our workers? Because one also important factor for these projects to happen are the workers. And so far, that's something we've been hearing that we lack skilled forces. Also, not only we lack skilled forces, but that the labor forces that are supposed to drive this, they need to adapt to new techniques which is positive could be seen as something positive for the EU but also they needed we need to adapt our rules for these conditions working conditions to be fair to be safe and to observe what's not working in terms of sub-granting maybe in some cases there are many sub-grantings that are for creating situation where there's injustice maybe the plan is a place to tackle those. to ensure that if we want an affordable housing plan, we should have all of these three, so affordable housing, with the right conditions for labourers, workers.
Speaker #0
Yeah, that sounds so fundamental. And at the same time, yeah, the workers tend to be very overlooked, their needs, like whatever the season, the fact that they need training on new techniques. I mean, we talked about self-renovation earlier, but yeah, it's also about, I mean, I think the workers have been so overlooked in the past probably 50 years. Earlier they might have been more like prestige in being a construction worker, but let's be honest, they have been suffering from a kind of a bad image, bad reputation. So how do we make younger generations want to engage in also in this kind of careers? I think it's one of the big topics though. It's really part of building better lives as a conversation starter, right? So we are reaching the end of our visit. So can you tell me just a little more, how will Build Better Lives evolve in the years to come? What kind of topic are you going to address? And yeah, if our listeners want to engage a little bit more, what can they do?
Speaker #1
So as I said, we're a European campaign, So there's going to be maybe... if not more, because also things happen, that things change compared to what you plan, but at least two streams of work that we're going to carry. So one of them is maybe more EU level with our different partners on the affordable housing plan, but not only made broader on the topic of housing and what the EU does about it and what are the different policies. So there, one important consideration would be to, as with everything that we basically just talked, that these... These are designed in a way that is complementary with our climate objectives, because climate objectives are also health objectives in the long term, and in some cases not only so much in the long term, also currently. And another work stream will be more, well, implementing all of the things that we've decided these past years. And with this, we're going to work with our national members, because we have, with the campaign, we have identified five focal points, we call them. So... France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Poland. We're going to be working closely with our members there and doing activities and... trying to find the best ways to work on national building renovation plans. So we're going to, first of all, try to have these plans ready at the right time. So we're going to engage with different policymakers for these plans, not to be just plans that stay there in an administration in a closet and that are not applied. So asking for ambition and social justice. and we're going to try once we have them to analyze them with our members and to see what can be done better there it's going to be also maybe a dual effort between the member state level but also the commission that needs to review them and give them their assessment so yeah they're basically going to be the two work streams i'm sure things are going to pop in i'm sure there's going to be a lot of things changing but yeah we're going to keep also trying to reach out to different organizations that work on the same topic. And we're also... Something that I forgot to say at the beginning is that the report is part of a broad work that we're doing and trying to collect inspiring stories. And this is a running exercise we're trying to do because hopefully we hope that there's going to be more and more examples that will come in front of us with time. So this is also something that we will continue doing. I'd like to say thanks to everyone that gives time and information. allow us to have access to these inspiring stories because we're just gathering them and they're actually carrying out the stories and uh through this help we wouldn't have anything so yeah so yeah it's always important to acknowledge absolutely
Speaker #0
i must say they are also very useful for the work of the uh new year in the house facility expert group and by the way there There is a... The New Europe and Bauhaus Festival will happen mid-June 2026. And yeah, that would actually be fantastic if the World of Better Lives could be there as well. It's going to be in Brussels.
Speaker #1
Bringing some of the examples, yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah, exactly, exactly. That would be really amazing. So I think we need more cooperation and more dialogue.
Speaker #1
Let's take a call message.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Thank you so much, Armand.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Cornelis, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer. And it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes, and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.

Chapters

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness
0sec
Understanding Urban Housing Challenges
1min
Guest Introduction: Herman from CanEurope
2min
Personal Journey into Building Renovation
2min
Collective Approaches to Neighborhood Renovation
4min
Moving Beyond Individual Building Solutions
8min
Circularity and Building Waste Management
11min
Community Engagement and Capacity Building
21min
The European Affordable Housing Plan
32min
Conclusion and Future Directions
41min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness

0sec

Understanding Urban Housing Challenges

1min

Guest Introduction: Herman from CanEurope

2min

Personal Journey into Building Renovation

2min

Collective Approaches to Neighborhood Renovation

4min

Moving Beyond Individual Building Solutions

8min

Circularity and Building Waste Management

11min

Community Engagement and Capacity Building

21min

The European Affordable Housing Plan

32min

Conclusion and Future Directions

41min

Chapters

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness

0sec

Understanding Urban Housing Challenges

1min

Guest Introduction: Herman from CanEurope

2min

Personal Journey into Building Renovation

2min

Collective Approaches to Neighborhood Renovation

4min

Moving Beyond Individual Building Solutions

8min

Circularity and Building Waste Management

11min

Community Engagement and Capacity Building

21min

The European Affordable Housing Plan

32min

Conclusion and Future Directions

41min