Cash Current: Financing the Flow of Citizen Energy (Replay) | Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Description

This week on Energ’Ethic, we bring back a conversation worth hearing again. Stan d’Herbemont of REScoop.eu explains why citizen energy projects still face a “risk premium” simply because they are democratic. Ownership and participation are often misread by traditional finance as weakness instead of strength.

As the ACCE project reaches its closing event on 7 October 2025, this replay offers the context behind our recent episodes with Chris Vrettos and Junior. Chris showed how ACCE has channelled millions into citizen-led projects. Junior reminded us that energy is also about hope and belonging. Stan sets the stage by showing why those tools were needed in the first place.

What you’ll hear:

Why democratic projects are still labelled “risky.”
How public finance and guarantees can change the flow.
Why communities deliver more than kilowatts: jobs, trust, inclusion.

🎧 Cash Current is back to remind us that citizen energy is worth the investment.

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

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Reach out to Marine Cornelis via BlueSky or LinkedIn
Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

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Transcription

Speaker #0
The energy transition is happening, but is it fair? Is it working for people like you and me, or just for big market players? Welcome to Energetic. I am Marine Cornelis, an expert in energy and climate policies, and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. Activists, scientists, policy makers, the real people making real change, often against the odds. Here, we do not settle for surface-level takes. We dig into the challenges, the solutions and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. And in doing so, we rediscover something vital, our ability to trust in institutions, to believe in change and to reclaim our power to act. Because if we want just resilience, if we want to just transition, we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. And more importantly, we need to believe that we can. Let's get into it. When I first spoke with Stanislas D'Herbemont of Rescoop.eu, his words left a deep mark. He explained how communities, even when they deliver clean energy, jobs and social value, are often forced to pay a risk premium simply for being democratic. Banks look at citizen ownership and see dilution. They look at participation and see instability. At the time, this felt like a quiet but heavy inquiry, holding projects back. Today, with the ACE project coming close, his analysis feels even more urgent. Over the past weeks on Energetic, you've heard Junior and Bangala speak of energy as hope, and Chris Vrettos call for all hands on deck as communities mobilize millions in Citizen Capital. This conversation shows that things are moving, but they also remind us why Stan's perspective still matters. Because the storm has not passed yet. Communities still face higher costs just for choosing democracy. Public guarantees, social climate fund plans and ethical finance can't change that tide, but only if we keep pushing. So as we gather in Brussels on 7 October for the ACE closing event, I want us to revisit Stan's voices. This episode is like the keel of the ship. It shows the barrier we need to overcome and And it helps us measure how far we've sailed. So let's listen again. Stan, I'm so happy to have you with me today. And it's such a nice follow-up with the episode we recorded with Antonia Kroger a few months ago. Thank you and welcome to Energetic.
Speaker #1
Thank you for having me, Marine. And I hope I will do as well as Antonia in your wonderful podcast. And thank you very much for the kind words in the introduction.
Speaker #0
So dig into your story first. Why? development manager at Rescoop. EU. What is your backstory? How did you get interested in community energy?
Speaker #1
Well, that's at the same time a very long and a very short story. The short part of the story is that when I joined the energy sector, I was given a chance by the members of Rescoop EU to join in as a team member of what was a very small secretariat at the time, already eight years ago. And a lot of people in the corporate movement believed in me. And I think that's why I'm still here today. The long story is when I finished university, I was trained in business administration. So I was originally an accountant, had nothing to do with energy or with community energy in general. And I got interested with my brother into a new concept that at the time was emerging called a community microgrid. A community microgrid is a technical concept that looked at a potential disconnection of a part of the grid. that allowed a high penetration of renewables from the technical standpoint, you know, leveraging ancillary services, leveraging a number of the technical services that are linked to microgrids. And what was our specific interest into that was the fact that there are certain of those microgrids that started implementing community engagement mechanisms and became community-driven, meaning they looked at how to recreate a link. from the infrastructure point of view to the citizens themselves and really trace that line between what is the energy, you know, the common parts of all our lives and the real experiences of that energy in real citizens' lives. And at that time, I was lucky enough to have a brother who worked for EDF. And so we went on a tour of Europe, visiting more than 15 research projects I'm looking at how to... conceptualize this community microgrid, how to make it happen in reality both from a technical standpoint and from a community standpoint, a realistic economic standpoint. And so we finished that trip at the General Assembly of Resco PU in 2016 looking at How could cooperatives really integrate into those concepts? And so that's how then I joined Resco PU. And since then, I never left. I started working on energy efficiency, which is an absolutely fascinating topic. It's really the bedrock of the transition. And I worked with wonderful, wonderful colleagues and projects that allowed me to really discover all the aspects, not only from the point of view of the technicalities, but also from the point of view of the engagement of people. into the transition. And that led me to then work into another project, which was the Compa project that looked at then the implementation of those kind of, you know, slightly disconnected areas of the grids that had a strong community focus. And in the Compa project, we worked with many companies as well, many private partners that looked at how to make that happen technically. And then what Rescopy was bringing to the table with our members, namely Zez and... Copernico in Portugal. Our goal was really to understand how we could make that happen from a community standpoint. How could we make that happen for the service of the people? And that allowed us as well to kind of follow the publication of the clean energy package at the time in 2018, 2019. The development of the concepts of renewable energy communities, citizen energy communities, and then the implementation. And yeah, here I am now, eight years later, working on something that Yeah, it's something that was unfortunate in most of the projects that I worked on, but that became a very intrinsic part of my experiences, the financing of this project. And really, how do you realize the community ownership aspect of that?
Speaker #0
So, indeed, finance seems to be the biggest culprit for many things to happen and not happen or not steer in the direction we would like it to be. and uh In French, we say l'argent, c'est le nerf de la guerre. I don't know if an equivalent expression exists in English, but basically it says that we actually need money to move things forward. So you have been working on various strategies to kind of steer the money in the direction of energy communities, basically, and financing these energy communities. And they are facing many pitfalls. So. What should they try to avoid? What could they do, these energy communities? And what is really your experience in that? I mean, you seem quite, seems to be quite a long journey.
Speaker #1
It is. It has been quite a long journey. But I think if I can use as well another French expression, sometimes it's important to have the means of our ambitions. Les moyens de nos ambitions. and so you know I think what was important for us as a federation was to really look at how do we concretely make that transition happen from a community standpoint. And then very quickly, we started to realize, okay, the reality in the energy sector is that the money is distributed in a very interesting way. And it's not really as straightforward. Interesting, some would say. Let's say it's not as straightforward as simply in other markets where it's kind of... the client's deciding. It's not really the case in the energy sector for good reasons. I think it's very important to realize that at the end of the day, energy is a special product. It is not something that is traded the same way as, I believe, clothes, which is what you were talking to me about before we joined that podcast or any form of other customer product. The point here for us was to understand, okay, when we invest, we make a choice. We make a choice for the world of the future. It was important for us to understand how can we steer that choice in the direction of community energy. Energy communities in general are creating a different vision of the world that we think most of the traditional liberalized energy companies are providing right now, which is a very market-driven point of view, very based on financial incentives and optimization. And the reality is... the vision behind energy communities and also behind the corporate movement to a certain extent was to create a different type of world, a world that is actually based on what is called wonderfully in the language of the commission co-benefits, right? As if finance was first and then co-benefits happen on the side. But the reality is that those co-benefits are the key essence of our experience as citizens. It is our social cohesion. It is the transition to a cleaner future for our children. It is allowing for each of us to have real control over both the sources and the allocation of the energy in our lives. And so this is really the core question that we keep talking about. How do we kind of realize that in our current world? And the reality is that then, yes, Marina, I agree with you. Money is the key issue. Money is not necessarily the end, but it's the mean that we use for the allocation of our resources that are finite. And so that's where the debate started. It started at how can we allocate the resources that we have to make sure that the transition to energy democracy happened in Europe tomorrow. And from that point of view, what we started to look at is what is the expression of the community energy movement. which is really all the initiatives in the energy sector that are driven by citizens. And it's the community ownership aspect. The fact that we own, we control, which are also two different things that are strongly interlinked. We control the projects that are the outcome of our actions as citizens. And so we looked at energy communities. We looked at how they are financed. We looked at how we partner as well with public and private entities. and We did that through a project called ACE, which you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, which is Access to Capital for Community Energy, and which is really a project that looked at what are the type of models in terms of sharing the value between the different financing partners? And how do we make more energy communities happen with strong, viable projects through time? What was interesting then for me was to understand that, yes, there are a number of limitations currently in our world around community financing. The first of which is... An issue of risk. As you know, most of the, let's say, structural financing players, the banks, the financial institutions, do not necessarily talk in euros, but talk in risk. Is it a risky project? It is not a risky project. And that's how they value really the investment that they're making. The key problem with community energy is that it has been considered historically as a very risky investment partner. Why? Because of... unclear reasons because they are small because their ownership structure is diluted because their control is democratic because they are unfamiliar just to be clear because they feel removed from the way traditional financing partners are built and so therefore the understanding is very it's much more difficult and therefore when the understanding is difficult the assessment is also much more risky. And so most communities usually pay a premium. on their financing, which obviously, I mean, is most SMEs will tell you is a reality of the world, but at the same time is strongly impairing the scaling of those projects, which at the end of the day are not financially optimized. They're optimized for other things. They're optimized for the social cohesion. They're optimized for the inclusivity, the responsibility, the benefits to the local community, but they're not optimized for how much cash am I going to get out of my production project? How much cash am I going to get out of my windmill? Or, you know, how am I going to deliver this premium asset for my portfolio? That is not something that community energy organizations really look at.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they are reinventing some norms. They are reinventing somehow some standards. And traditional investors, they are not familiar with that, so they don't really trust them. And I mean, the two previous episodes of this podcast were really about norms and international norms and standards and how important they are to build trust. really foster trust and make sure that customers follow. But it's not only about customer, it's about the banks, it's about any kind of investors, any kind of money, whether private or public as well. I mean, you've been working with both channels, if I'm correct.
Speaker #1
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there is two parts in your statement here. There is the first thing, which is the trust building exercise, which is so important. And the funny thing is that... when we see in certain areas where the trust is already pre-built, like when there is a very strong ethical corporate banking movement, for example, like in Italy, the projects are getting financed quite easily. But then when you go into countries like Croatia, for example, where the trust does not exist at all, it's something that feels very foreign, then suddenly it's almost impossible to finance those projects. What we see there, and it's good that you mentioned the public and the private side of finance. Obviously, to finance a transition, we will need both. We will need public investments and private financiers as well to get engaged. However, there is a very clear difference in the roles. Public finance has always been in Europe, a kind of a front runner, a leader into looking at what can be done to, you know, trigger openings, either in the market or at least openings related to public policy objectives. And that's really what we see, where we see the opportunities for energy communities. We do see a lot of programs being developed for energy communities. Sometimes, you know, with a good understanding, sometimes with not such a good understanding, but at least really trying to push in that direction. And we really encourage that as well. What we encourage now a little bit more, though, is that those public institutions take a much more... blunt approach to the problem. It's not enough anymore to just measure the funding gap and to say, oh yeah, we will add a little bit on top and hope for those initiatives to survive. It will not work because we are facing very structural problem in the financing market. We need public financiers to really take the role that is theirs and take a step forward in terms of financing those projects structurally, not only in terms of the funding gap, which is mostly grants at that moment, but also in terms of the debt. in terms of the guarantees which are available for public institutions, for example, but are not so available for energy communities. The second part is the private financiers. And there, the debate is a little bit more complicated. Obviously, there is a trust problem. I would say that there is also an understanding problem. And that problem is from both sides. Most energy communities today are not ready to provide ESG credit guarantees, for example, for private financiers. They're not ready to really reach for those large portfolio programs. But this is changing. And one of the key things that we learned from the ACE project is that the capabilities of the movement are there. We're talking about the last 18 months in France, Energy Partagé invested 140 million euros in the movement. In the Netherlands, Energy Summer is currently running several funds of upwards of 200 million euros invested in the past 18 months. So we're talking about volumes that start to be making sense for private financiers. But then we come to the next part of the explanation, because there is one part, which is obviously the risk taking. And then the other part, which is the fact that you cannot deal with energy communities the same way that you deal with traditional projects. You need to understand their specific needs. Obviously, there we're talking about democratically governed and owned projects. And so the typical kind of financing timeline for a startup will not work there. We're not trying to look for angel investors that will come in. Yeah,
Speaker #0
it's a venture capital.
Speaker #1
Voilà, exactly. We're not talking about the traditional cascade of funding that you usually have in the private sector. Here, we need products that will fit into the true benefits of energy communities. And so I talked about ESGs. That's obviously one avenue that we're exploring, trying to valorize those quote-unquote co-benefits to the local community, but also to the world at large. And the second part is also trying to understand how can we structure deals that will make everybody feel safe? How do we spread the value in a way that makes sense for everybody? And there are a couple of things that we experimented with our hybrid products, for example, where we have equity or quasi equity that acts like that, where you guarantee a certain return for private financiers. Obviously, we're talking very long term. We are also talking about something that has a clear return and that can allow for energy communities to gather the financing that they need. The last thing that I will add is we all need to realize that there is a kind of a weird understanding in the financing world regarding the performance of certain projects. Performance is everywhere. What is my investment performance? And the problem is that most community energy projects have been placed in the high risk, high performance category, most of them. Obviously, they are not very high performance from a financial standpoint. It's clear. It's not the point either. But the problem is also that I tend to think that the quality of those investments have been heavily undervalued. Most community energy projects, most community energy organizations last very long. They are very sustainable through time. They do happen to be rather conservative in their investment profiles. But the reality is we are not building something that's going to disappear in five years. We're building something that's going to be here in 50 years so that our kids and our grandkids can be members of the cooperative. It's not about trying to make a quick buck. And so the point here is we think, at least from the point of view of me and my colleagues, at least that's my personal opinion, is that I think there is a need for better understanding the quality of those projects and valuing energy communities for what they are, which is a structural... organization in the local at the local level that will stay for a very long time that will have a goal which is not crazy investments but that will be to deliver long-term value through time and that's something that i believe most investors should understand and appreciate better yeah
Speaker #0
that's that's really really so interesting because as we like more globally talk about sustainability we think more and more about like the impact of our purchase of our let's say our daily actions, etc. And more and more, the question of finance moves to the top of the agenda. There were also discussions at COP. I mean, it's becoming really one of the... most exposed points because somehow many banks are still financing fossil fuel industries and polluting businesses and so on and we need to move beyond that for the sake of our planet, for the sake of humanity. And what, if I understand correctly, the idea of energy communities is really so sustainable that is built really to be as something steady that she doesn't really need to move up and down and be traded and move from one person to another. So it doesn't seem to be like the thing you will make a lot of money from if you are, let's say, in this kind of...
Speaker #1
It's not an excuse.
Speaker #0
No,
Speaker #1
exactly.
Speaker #0
We're not looking at that. Yeah, I mean, I remember the film Wall Street in the 80s. It's exactly not what you would see in the portfolio of... of the Wolf of Wall Street, right? Because somehow it's the impact on society, on really on the environment is so much stronger and so much broader that actually everybody who's concerned about climate should be thinking of investing in an energy community. But the thing is the intermediaries, so the bankers, they have cold feet, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's partly that and it's partly, I think, the financing world. At the end, it looks very fast when you look at movies, but the reality is that it's very slow in the background. It's those gigantic organizations that move very slowly. And our understanding is that it's normal. It's not a problem. It's not a criticism. It's just a normal thing. Today, we see more and more customers of banks asking for those green investments. The reality is that the highest performing investments are the ones that have highest ratings, the ones that actually are quote unquote green. We see popping up, you know, different types of investments, portfolios claiming high quality green. The problem is the greenwashing. Recently, the commission has implemented new standards to try to avoid that. The CRC 3Ds also now have been voted to actually be implemented as well for the European level. So we hope that those standards are kind of like coming together and making it clear that greenwashing will not be the point. but obviously you know If you want to take advantage of things, you can always take advantage of things. What we are looking for here, and that's really the message that for me is important. And that's why I hear from you as well, Marianne, is let's be responsible. Let's be responsible. At the end of the day, the customers want it. Definitely, 100%. Most of them are co-financing the investment of the bank in there. Just to be clear, they are also members. They are putting their own money on the line. So the question here is, let's take a stance together. And that's really that. And not only because we are an ethical bank, but because we believe that we can make a better future tomorrow. That's really the point. And I think it will become a reality. Granted, I'm an optimist at heart, but I do believe that at some point, the tide will turn and we will see heavy investment in energy communities and those kind of high impact qualitative projects. that will bring value to the local community. Not because it's going to be the new El Dorado, but because this is the right thing to do. And because at the end of the day, we all need to live together. And so we need to put our money where our mouth is. That's really the main point.
Speaker #0
That's really something you've been advocating for the concept of citizens' property in the energy sector. And how would you define it for somebody who's hearing that term for the first time? And it's one of the things, the most interesting things, I think, about this kind of citizens property approach is that you manage to uncouple financial investment and financial structures from the governance. So how does that work in practice?
Speaker #1
Right. So, I mean, for us and just citizen property or community ownership, as we call it, is really structured around, as you said, separating the governance right from the financing right. And that idea that it doesn't really matter how much you are. willing or able to invest. What matters is that you're invested and that you're part of the community. The operationalization of that is really through usually concepts of one member, one vote or governance by college, depending however you prefer to implement it in your country as well. And it looks at a way of collective decision that does not rely on the amount of money that you invested, but rather on the fact that you want to be part of the group and the decision together. Mind you, it doesn't mean that... the formal amount that you invested is not rewarded from a financial standpoint to the level that you invested. And so if I invest 100 euros and my neighbor invests 1,000 euros, at the end of the day, if we distribute dividends... For two, three, four percent, which is typical in the corporate movement and most of the energy communities that we know in Europe, you will get four percent of a thousand euro. You will not get four percent of a hundred, just to be clear. But at the end of the day, we get the same rights to decide, should we distribute this money or should we keep it in the business to make sure that we can continue having projects? And so that's really where at the end of the day, it's very simple. It's not rocket science, something that happened forever. The other thing as well that I find interesting is the interface of that with... the typical private finance of, well, I need to make sure that my return is here. If I'm a professional investor, I need to make sure that my return is here. And at the end of the day, nothing wrong with that. If it's your job to make sure that money is actually working, then it's understandable that you want a clear return. You can still do that through those hybrid models where, for example, in Italy right now, there is a product that you can get as an investor that will allow you to guarantee a certain level of return. minus the risk, obviously, which is linked not to the fact that you are a member of the community, but rather that you are an investment support. So it's a different category of share. You don't necessarily get the governance rights, just like the rest of the community, because at the end of the day, you're not part of the community. But you get veto rights and controlling rights on the distribution of the dividends, allowing you to guarantee your return long term. And so that's really this kind of model that we're trying to look at right now. If you look at what Energy Partagé, for example, is doing in France, they really looked at how do we share the value of the project. Obviously, we need to reward all the actors. It's not to say, ah, community actors need to get all the value. No, obviously, we should get some value because the community is the prime holder of the project, both in terms of the ownership and in terms of... also bearing the consequence of the existence of the energy project. But it's obviously everybody should get a share. Municipality, the financiers, operators, developers. And so really then the conversation of co-development becomes very interesting. I'm saying, okay, how do we ensure that everybody can have a safe business model? How can we ensure that everybody gets the right value? But we all have the same understanding. At the end of the day, we're trying to get more renewables. better renewables as well that will fit into a broader system. And we need to create local job, local economic drive, local growth and skills. So that's really what we're looking at at the end of the day. And then allowing for that partnership to be with everybody on the same point rather than a competition partnership. I think this is a very key drive in the community energy movement. It's not about competition. We're not trying to compete with one another. We're trying to collaborate together for a better world. And so that makes a big difference as well in the relationship with our partners currently.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's cooperation instead of competition. And I love that. It's really like, I feel it's a common thing among the people who were my guests in this podcast, because everybody really wants to share their insights and really want to make their solutions somehow. more mainstream and i really like that i mean i'm really grateful for the speakers to be so so generous really with their with their ideas and with their business models with their projects and so on and so so let uh let me ask you one uh one thing uh really one piece of advice so one or two key lessons you would like to to offer to uh potential listeners who would be keen to contribute or start their own community energy project.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. What I will not do is tell you what to do. That would be counterintuitive to exactly what I've just been telling you for the past 40 minutes. What I will tell you is what was my experience here in Brussels when we built the first citizen energy community in Brussels called Brupower. And when we built that community, we started in a very difficult context. Brussels has a very high energy poverty rate. Our buildings are very poorly renovated. Our energy market is terrible. There's only two suppliers available. One being Total, one being Engie. So I can tell you it's not amazing. Not to say that they're doing a bad job, just to say that there's not a lot of choice. And so when we started, we took on something that people told us was impossible. To build an energy community and to do that with people in a place where there's a high rate of poverty. And the reality now, as we are about to launch our first project, it's actually going to be put into operation next Monday. It is true, actually. It was a lot harder than we thought. So just the first advice is one, it's going to be a lot harder than you thought. Absolutely. And you should always listen to the people that are telling you, be careful, be careful. It's very hard. It's complicated. You know, you should listen to your banker. Yes, you're potentially, he's potentially right to say that your project is difficult.
Speaker #0
But at the same time, you should always listen as well to your partners, to the people around you, to your community that is telling you this is too important to give up. And I think that's really what is the main message here is at the end of the day, we all have a choice to make. Whoever it is, maybe a financier, maybe a community member, maybe we all have a choice to make. And we have to make that choice together. So we have to drive in the right direction. I think one of the interactions that really... left an imprint in my mind was when we did our first fundraising round and, you know, we were raising a very significant amount of money for us. We were raising 400,000 euros and we didn't think that we were going to make it because at the end of the day, we did six months, nothing really happened. People started telling us we did too much. And then we received a single time investment of 20,000 euros for a single person, which to me is enormous. 20,000 euros is incredible. So at the beginning, my first reaction was, oh, this is a mistake. So I'm going to write to that person and let them know that they made a mistake. And also, also...
Speaker #1
One or two extra zero.
Speaker #0
Voilà, that's it. You probably made one zero extra or two. And then also to remind them of the rules of the cooperative, which are very, very tight, right? He will only be able to get his investment back after six years. It's, you know, limited returns. And I received the most wonderful email in return saying... You're very emotional. I didn't think it was going to be that hard. He literally wrote me an email saying, listen, not only check yourself, you need to know that I actually wanted to put 20,000 euros. I checked my amounts before saying send, which is okay. And the second part was, we think that you're going to do great things with this money. And we really believe in what you're doing. And at the end of the day, that's important enough for us to do. you know It's not that we don't need that money, but we do believe that at the end of the day, you will do what you said you will do and that we will see that money back. And that, you know, whatever the return, we invested in the right thing. We invested in the future of our children. And I think this answer, which was very simple at the end of the day, is just, no, I made an investment. I know what I'm doing. I am capable of making a financial analysis. It was really wonderful because it really showed, you know, that people care, that people actually want to make that difference. And so
Speaker #1
I have trust in you. they put their trust in you.
Speaker #0
Exactly. And at the end, it all relies on that. It all relies on the trust. It all relies on the beliefs that we have together. And at the end of the day, I'm sure that we'll make it. And I'm sure that I'll be more than happy in six years from now to hopefully not give him his money back, but to deliver to him his first dividends on his returns and to make sure that he knows that he made a difference in the creation of the community, which obviously I'm sure that we are not the most performant part of his portfolio, but at least he made a difference. for a lot of people around here.
Speaker #1
That's super inspiring. So people with deep pockets, please reach out to Stan for our energy projects. And yeah, I mean, that's also, that's such an interesting story also because, you know, one of the key aspects, of course, of the energy transition is like the renovation of the building and so on. And somehow if you decide to invest in your own solar panels or in your own... let's say, retrofitting of your home by putting a heat pump or renovating it. Yeah, maybe you get some money back, but it's only for you. Whereas in that case, it was really about the community and delivering for the community and mostly delivering for those who could benefit, but who are actually not capable of putting any money at first. I mean, maybe they can put... They have all the skills or talents they can share, but maybe they are not able to put any money because of many reasons and many circumstances that are present to them. So that's really great. I mean, thank you, person, generous contributor in Brussels.
Speaker #0
I won't give his name right now because he didn't give me the green light to do that, but I definitely carry, we all carrying him in our arms, definitely.
Speaker #1
That's brilliant. Can you share one or two more things about the Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels and how it will really look like?
Speaker #0
What we hope to build is an organization that will be able to deliver cheaper kilowatt hours for all Bosselliers here in Brussels. And so what we started with is something that is very new in Brussels called energy sharing that is meant to allow us to basically deliver. kilowatt hours that we produce through rooftop installations directly to our members. And that allows us, thanks to the Brussels law, to provide with the cheaper kilowatt hours. Relatively, it's between 20% and 25% cheaper than a traditional fixed contract on the energy. So that's the vision. We already are starting to implement rooftop PV across the region. We are lucky enough to also partner with several Brussels municipalities, as well as large public buildings, to also implement this production. And Brutpower really is looking at bringing citizens together to understand, Yes. the production side of things to get cheaper kilowatt hours, but also to understand how can we as a region be more sustainable. And so what it means really is that the production side is going to be important, but the more important side is the sobriety aspect. And how can we change the way we consume energy and understand energy so that we can all better take advantage of it? Because we are such a big city, very urban area, we will need anyway the support of the other regions in Belgium. And so... We need to understand also the role that we have compared to that. The vision of Brutpower then is at some point to take on the supply as well in order to be able to be providing the entire bill of our members. So Brutpower was built two years ago by a group of 10 founders. And we are now looking to invest. We built our first project. We're looking to invest into... and much more until the end of the year. We are planning to get to 1.5 megawatt installed in, I think, a year and a half, so basically 2026. So it's hopefully going to make a difference for a significant number of people. You can join the cooperative very easily. We decided by design to make the share very low. So we have a 50 euro share, which granted is a lot for some people, but it's is considerably lower than most corporates in Belgium. And we also offer the opportunity for people then to join into different information activities to better understand the energy sector, better understand also the energy bill, which is very complex here in Brussels. So that's basically the project. On the face of it, rather simple.
Speaker #1
That's great. Thank you so much for all those insights, Stan. And yes, that really sounds very exciting for Brussels. And I mean, I'm not talking about Brussels EU policy making, but really Brussels, like Brussels people who are really. Yeah, for once, it's a. Yeah, it's lovely to hear a direct communication between those two words, because we talked about really like EU policy and the many, many facets of EU policies. And now we can like how we can actually deliver for the people. And that's that's really super inspiring because I mean. For once, your bubble is speaking to Brussels, Brussels, to the Zinneker. And that's really so nice and so empowering. Thank you so much, Dan.
Speaker #0
With pleasure. And I think one thing that I might add as well for the people that are in the finance world and want to look at something that works. I recommend that you go and take a look at what Bruxelles Finance & Invest has been doing here in Brussels because they helped us significantly. With BluePower, it's also one of the mechanisms that we're looking into with ACE. And it's a fantastic mechanism, both in terms of the equity investment, in terms of the debt investment as well, or the debt provision. So great job to them. They also helped us significantly as well. And, you know, I think we, strangely enough, we are very, I mean, we are very lucky, obviously, to be in Brussels because of all the great people and the bubble and so on and so forth. we have a a wealth of knowledge and understanding that is also coming to us and the corporatives. But we're also very lucky on the fact that, you know, you've been to Brussels, you lived here for quite a while. And it's at the end of the day, it's a village. And maybe sometime we are a bit too focused on the outside. And it feels good to also focus on ourselves a little bit.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Dan. Thank you for your generosity and for all those really interesting tips. And as you said, the energy community and energy citizenship is only at its beginning. So let's keep on being inspired by practices like ProPower and models like ProPower. So thank you so much.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the Just Energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. I'm Marine Cornelis, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer. And it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes. And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.

Chapters

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness
3sec
Interview with Stanislas D'Herbemont: Community Energy Insights
1min
Stanislas' Journey into Community Energy
2min
Challenges in Financing Community Energy Projects
6min
The Role of Trust in Energy Financing
17min
Advice for Starting Community Energy Projects
28min
Overview of Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels
34min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Hosted by Marine Cornelis, Energ’Ethic brings together policymakers, regulators, industry leaders, city practitioners, researchers, and civil society voices to examine what makes energy transitions succeed—or fail—in the real world.

Beyond technology and targets, the podcast focuses on trust, power, consumer rights, digitalisation, and energy justice. Each conversation connects policy and market design with lived experience, unpacking how decisions taken in boardrooms and institutions translate into everyday realities for people and communities.

Energ’Ethic is not about slogans or quick fixes. It is a space for rigorous, grounded conversations about resilience, legitimacy, and the social conditions required for lasting climate and energy strategies.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

What you’ll hear:

Why democratic projects are still labelled “risky.”
How public finance and guarantees can change the flow.
Why communities deliver more than kilowatts: jobs, trust, inclusion.

🎧 Cash Current is back to remind us that citizen energy is worth the investment.

Energ' Ethic goes out every other week.

Keep up to date with new episodes straight from your inbox

Reach out to Marine Cornelis via BlueSky or LinkedIn
Music: I Need You Here - Kamarius
Edition: Podcast Media Factory

Support Energ'Ethic on Patreon

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
The energy transition is happening, but is it fair? Is it working for people like you and me, or just for big market players? Welcome to Energetic. I am Marine Cornelis, an expert in energy and climate policies, and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. Activists, scientists, policy makers, the real people making real change, often against the odds. Here, we do not settle for surface-level takes. We dig into the challenges, the solutions and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. And in doing so, we rediscover something vital, our ability to trust in institutions, to believe in change and to reclaim our power to act. Because if we want just resilience, if we want to just transition, we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. And more importantly, we need to believe that we can. Let's get into it. When I first spoke with Stanislas D'Herbemont of Rescoop.eu, his words left a deep mark. He explained how communities, even when they deliver clean energy, jobs and social value, are often forced to pay a risk premium simply for being democratic. Banks look at citizen ownership and see dilution. They look at participation and see instability. At the time, this felt like a quiet but heavy inquiry, holding projects back. Today, with the ACE project coming close, his analysis feels even more urgent. Over the past weeks on Energetic, you've heard Junior and Bangala speak of energy as hope, and Chris Vrettos call for all hands on deck as communities mobilize millions in Citizen Capital. This conversation shows that things are moving, but they also remind us why Stan's perspective still matters. Because the storm has not passed yet. Communities still face higher costs just for choosing democracy. Public guarantees, social climate fund plans and ethical finance can't change that tide, but only if we keep pushing. So as we gather in Brussels on 7 October for the ACE closing event, I want us to revisit Stan's voices. This episode is like the keel of the ship. It shows the barrier we need to overcome and And it helps us measure how far we've sailed. So let's listen again. Stan, I'm so happy to have you with me today. And it's such a nice follow-up with the episode we recorded with Antonia Kroger a few months ago. Thank you and welcome to Energetic.
Speaker #1
Thank you for having me, Marine. And I hope I will do as well as Antonia in your wonderful podcast. And thank you very much for the kind words in the introduction.
Speaker #0
So dig into your story first. Why? development manager at Rescoop. EU. What is your backstory? How did you get interested in community energy?
Speaker #1
Well, that's at the same time a very long and a very short story. The short part of the story is that when I joined the energy sector, I was given a chance by the members of Rescoop EU to join in as a team member of what was a very small secretariat at the time, already eight years ago. And a lot of people in the corporate movement believed in me. And I think that's why I'm still here today. The long story is when I finished university, I was trained in business administration. So I was originally an accountant, had nothing to do with energy or with community energy in general. And I got interested with my brother into a new concept that at the time was emerging called a community microgrid. A community microgrid is a technical concept that looked at a potential disconnection of a part of the grid. that allowed a high penetration of renewables from the technical standpoint, you know, leveraging ancillary services, leveraging a number of the technical services that are linked to microgrids. And what was our specific interest into that was the fact that there are certain of those microgrids that started implementing community engagement mechanisms and became community-driven, meaning they looked at how to recreate a link. from the infrastructure point of view to the citizens themselves and really trace that line between what is the energy, you know, the common parts of all our lives and the real experiences of that energy in real citizens' lives. And at that time, I was lucky enough to have a brother who worked for EDF. And so we went on a tour of Europe, visiting more than 15 research projects I'm looking at how to... conceptualize this community microgrid, how to make it happen in reality both from a technical standpoint and from a community standpoint, a realistic economic standpoint. And so we finished that trip at the General Assembly of Resco PU in 2016 looking at How could cooperatives really integrate into those concepts? And so that's how then I joined Resco PU. And since then, I never left. I started working on energy efficiency, which is an absolutely fascinating topic. It's really the bedrock of the transition. And I worked with wonderful, wonderful colleagues and projects that allowed me to really discover all the aspects, not only from the point of view of the technicalities, but also from the point of view of the engagement of people. into the transition. And that led me to then work into another project, which was the Compa project that looked at then the implementation of those kind of, you know, slightly disconnected areas of the grids that had a strong community focus. And in the Compa project, we worked with many companies as well, many private partners that looked at how to make that happen technically. And then what Rescopy was bringing to the table with our members, namely Zez and... Copernico in Portugal. Our goal was really to understand how we could make that happen from a community standpoint. How could we make that happen for the service of the people? And that allowed us as well to kind of follow the publication of the clean energy package at the time in 2018, 2019. The development of the concepts of renewable energy communities, citizen energy communities, and then the implementation. And yeah, here I am now, eight years later, working on something that Yeah, it's something that was unfortunate in most of the projects that I worked on, but that became a very intrinsic part of my experiences, the financing of this project. And really, how do you realize the community ownership aspect of that?
Speaker #0
So, indeed, finance seems to be the biggest culprit for many things to happen and not happen or not steer in the direction we would like it to be. and uh In French, we say l'argent, c'est le nerf de la guerre. I don't know if an equivalent expression exists in English, but basically it says that we actually need money to move things forward. So you have been working on various strategies to kind of steer the money in the direction of energy communities, basically, and financing these energy communities. And they are facing many pitfalls. So. What should they try to avoid? What could they do, these energy communities? And what is really your experience in that? I mean, you seem quite, seems to be quite a long journey.
Speaker #1
It is. It has been quite a long journey. But I think if I can use as well another French expression, sometimes it's important to have the means of our ambitions. Les moyens de nos ambitions. and so you know I think what was important for us as a federation was to really look at how do we concretely make that transition happen from a community standpoint. And then very quickly, we started to realize, okay, the reality in the energy sector is that the money is distributed in a very interesting way. And it's not really as straightforward. Interesting, some would say. Let's say it's not as straightforward as simply in other markets where it's kind of... the client's deciding. It's not really the case in the energy sector for good reasons. I think it's very important to realize that at the end of the day, energy is a special product. It is not something that is traded the same way as, I believe, clothes, which is what you were talking to me about before we joined that podcast or any form of other customer product. The point here for us was to understand, okay, when we invest, we make a choice. We make a choice for the world of the future. It was important for us to understand how can we steer that choice in the direction of community energy. Energy communities in general are creating a different vision of the world that we think most of the traditional liberalized energy companies are providing right now, which is a very market-driven point of view, very based on financial incentives and optimization. And the reality is... the vision behind energy communities and also behind the corporate movement to a certain extent was to create a different type of world, a world that is actually based on what is called wonderfully in the language of the commission co-benefits, right? As if finance was first and then co-benefits happen on the side. But the reality is that those co-benefits are the key essence of our experience as citizens. It is our social cohesion. It is the transition to a cleaner future for our children. It is allowing for each of us to have real control over both the sources and the allocation of the energy in our lives. And so this is really the core question that we keep talking about. How do we kind of realize that in our current world? And the reality is that then, yes, Marina, I agree with you. Money is the key issue. Money is not necessarily the end, but it's the mean that we use for the allocation of our resources that are finite. And so that's where the debate started. It started at how can we allocate the resources that we have to make sure that the transition to energy democracy happened in Europe tomorrow. And from that point of view, what we started to look at is what is the expression of the community energy movement. which is really all the initiatives in the energy sector that are driven by citizens. And it's the community ownership aspect. The fact that we own, we control, which are also two different things that are strongly interlinked. We control the projects that are the outcome of our actions as citizens. And so we looked at energy communities. We looked at how they are financed. We looked at how we partner as well with public and private entities. and We did that through a project called ACE, which you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, which is Access to Capital for Community Energy, and which is really a project that looked at what are the type of models in terms of sharing the value between the different financing partners? And how do we make more energy communities happen with strong, viable projects through time? What was interesting then for me was to understand that, yes, there are a number of limitations currently in our world around community financing. The first of which is... An issue of risk. As you know, most of the, let's say, structural financing players, the banks, the financial institutions, do not necessarily talk in euros, but talk in risk. Is it a risky project? It is not a risky project. And that's how they value really the investment that they're making. The key problem with community energy is that it has been considered historically as a very risky investment partner. Why? Because of... unclear reasons because they are small because their ownership structure is diluted because their control is democratic because they are unfamiliar just to be clear because they feel removed from the way traditional financing partners are built and so therefore the understanding is very it's much more difficult and therefore when the understanding is difficult the assessment is also much more risky. And so most communities usually pay a premium. on their financing, which obviously, I mean, is most SMEs will tell you is a reality of the world, but at the same time is strongly impairing the scaling of those projects, which at the end of the day are not financially optimized. They're optimized for other things. They're optimized for the social cohesion. They're optimized for the inclusivity, the responsibility, the benefits to the local community, but they're not optimized for how much cash am I going to get out of my production project? How much cash am I going to get out of my windmill? Or, you know, how am I going to deliver this premium asset for my portfolio? That is not something that community energy organizations really look at.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they are reinventing some norms. They are reinventing somehow some standards. And traditional investors, they are not familiar with that, so they don't really trust them. And I mean, the two previous episodes of this podcast were really about norms and international norms and standards and how important they are to build trust. really foster trust and make sure that customers follow. But it's not only about customer, it's about the banks, it's about any kind of investors, any kind of money, whether private or public as well. I mean, you've been working with both channels, if I'm correct.
Speaker #1
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there is two parts in your statement here. There is the first thing, which is the trust building exercise, which is so important. And the funny thing is that... when we see in certain areas where the trust is already pre-built, like when there is a very strong ethical corporate banking movement, for example, like in Italy, the projects are getting financed quite easily. But then when you go into countries like Croatia, for example, where the trust does not exist at all, it's something that feels very foreign, then suddenly it's almost impossible to finance those projects. What we see there, and it's good that you mentioned the public and the private side of finance. Obviously, to finance a transition, we will need both. We will need public investments and private financiers as well to get engaged. However, there is a very clear difference in the roles. Public finance has always been in Europe, a kind of a front runner, a leader into looking at what can be done to, you know, trigger openings, either in the market or at least openings related to public policy objectives. And that's really what we see, where we see the opportunities for energy communities. We do see a lot of programs being developed for energy communities. Sometimes, you know, with a good understanding, sometimes with not such a good understanding, but at least really trying to push in that direction. And we really encourage that as well. What we encourage now a little bit more, though, is that those public institutions take a much more... blunt approach to the problem. It's not enough anymore to just measure the funding gap and to say, oh yeah, we will add a little bit on top and hope for those initiatives to survive. It will not work because we are facing very structural problem in the financing market. We need public financiers to really take the role that is theirs and take a step forward in terms of financing those projects structurally, not only in terms of the funding gap, which is mostly grants at that moment, but also in terms of the debt. in terms of the guarantees which are available for public institutions, for example, but are not so available for energy communities. The second part is the private financiers. And there, the debate is a little bit more complicated. Obviously, there is a trust problem. I would say that there is also an understanding problem. And that problem is from both sides. Most energy communities today are not ready to provide ESG credit guarantees, for example, for private financiers. They're not ready to really reach for those large portfolio programs. But this is changing. And one of the key things that we learned from the ACE project is that the capabilities of the movement are there. We're talking about the last 18 months in France, Energy Partagé invested 140 million euros in the movement. In the Netherlands, Energy Summer is currently running several funds of upwards of 200 million euros invested in the past 18 months. So we're talking about volumes that start to be making sense for private financiers. But then we come to the next part of the explanation, because there is one part, which is obviously the risk taking. And then the other part, which is the fact that you cannot deal with energy communities the same way that you deal with traditional projects. You need to understand their specific needs. Obviously, there we're talking about democratically governed and owned projects. And so the typical kind of financing timeline for a startup will not work there. We're not trying to look for angel investors that will come in. Yeah,
Speaker #0
it's a venture capital.
Speaker #1
Voilà, exactly. We're not talking about the traditional cascade of funding that you usually have in the private sector. Here, we need products that will fit into the true benefits of energy communities. And so I talked about ESGs. That's obviously one avenue that we're exploring, trying to valorize those quote-unquote co-benefits to the local community, but also to the world at large. And the second part is also trying to understand how can we structure deals that will make everybody feel safe? How do we spread the value in a way that makes sense for everybody? And there are a couple of things that we experimented with our hybrid products, for example, where we have equity or quasi equity that acts like that, where you guarantee a certain return for private financiers. Obviously, we're talking very long term. We are also talking about something that has a clear return and that can allow for energy communities to gather the financing that they need. The last thing that I will add is we all need to realize that there is a kind of a weird understanding in the financing world regarding the performance of certain projects. Performance is everywhere. What is my investment performance? And the problem is that most community energy projects have been placed in the high risk, high performance category, most of them. Obviously, they are not very high performance from a financial standpoint. It's clear. It's not the point either. But the problem is also that I tend to think that the quality of those investments have been heavily undervalued. Most community energy projects, most community energy organizations last very long. They are very sustainable through time. They do happen to be rather conservative in their investment profiles. But the reality is we are not building something that's going to disappear in five years. We're building something that's going to be here in 50 years so that our kids and our grandkids can be members of the cooperative. It's not about trying to make a quick buck. And so the point here is we think, at least from the point of view of me and my colleagues, at least that's my personal opinion, is that I think there is a need for better understanding the quality of those projects and valuing energy communities for what they are, which is a structural... organization in the local at the local level that will stay for a very long time that will have a goal which is not crazy investments but that will be to deliver long-term value through time and that's something that i believe most investors should understand and appreciate better yeah
Speaker #0
that's that's really really so interesting because as we like more globally talk about sustainability we think more and more about like the impact of our purchase of our let's say our daily actions, etc. And more and more, the question of finance moves to the top of the agenda. There were also discussions at COP. I mean, it's becoming really one of the... most exposed points because somehow many banks are still financing fossil fuel industries and polluting businesses and so on and we need to move beyond that for the sake of our planet, for the sake of humanity. And what, if I understand correctly, the idea of energy communities is really so sustainable that is built really to be as something steady that she doesn't really need to move up and down and be traded and move from one person to another. So it doesn't seem to be like the thing you will make a lot of money from if you are, let's say, in this kind of...
Speaker #1
It's not an excuse.
Speaker #0
No,
Speaker #1
exactly.
Speaker #0
We're not looking at that. Yeah, I mean, I remember the film Wall Street in the 80s. It's exactly not what you would see in the portfolio of... of the Wolf of Wall Street, right? Because somehow it's the impact on society, on really on the environment is so much stronger and so much broader that actually everybody who's concerned about climate should be thinking of investing in an energy community. But the thing is the intermediaries, so the bankers, they have cold feet, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's partly that and it's partly, I think, the financing world. At the end, it looks very fast when you look at movies, but the reality is that it's very slow in the background. It's those gigantic organizations that move very slowly. And our understanding is that it's normal. It's not a problem. It's not a criticism. It's just a normal thing. Today, we see more and more customers of banks asking for those green investments. The reality is that the highest performing investments are the ones that have highest ratings, the ones that actually are quote unquote green. We see popping up, you know, different types of investments, portfolios claiming high quality green. The problem is the greenwashing. Recently, the commission has implemented new standards to try to avoid that. The CRC 3Ds also now have been voted to actually be implemented as well for the European level. So we hope that those standards are kind of like coming together and making it clear that greenwashing will not be the point. but obviously you know If you want to take advantage of things, you can always take advantage of things. What we are looking for here, and that's really the message that for me is important. And that's why I hear from you as well, Marianne, is let's be responsible. Let's be responsible. At the end of the day, the customers want it. Definitely, 100%. Most of them are co-financing the investment of the bank in there. Just to be clear, they are also members. They are putting their own money on the line. So the question here is, let's take a stance together. And that's really that. And not only because we are an ethical bank, but because we believe that we can make a better future tomorrow. That's really the point. And I think it will become a reality. Granted, I'm an optimist at heart, but I do believe that at some point, the tide will turn and we will see heavy investment in energy communities and those kind of high impact qualitative projects. that will bring value to the local community. Not because it's going to be the new El Dorado, but because this is the right thing to do. And because at the end of the day, we all need to live together. And so we need to put our money where our mouth is. That's really the main point.
Speaker #0
That's really something you've been advocating for the concept of citizens' property in the energy sector. And how would you define it for somebody who's hearing that term for the first time? And it's one of the things, the most interesting things, I think, about this kind of citizens property approach is that you manage to uncouple financial investment and financial structures from the governance. So how does that work in practice?
Speaker #1
Right. So, I mean, for us and just citizen property or community ownership, as we call it, is really structured around, as you said, separating the governance right from the financing right. And that idea that it doesn't really matter how much you are. willing or able to invest. What matters is that you're invested and that you're part of the community. The operationalization of that is really through usually concepts of one member, one vote or governance by college, depending however you prefer to implement it in your country as well. And it looks at a way of collective decision that does not rely on the amount of money that you invested, but rather on the fact that you want to be part of the group and the decision together. Mind you, it doesn't mean that... the formal amount that you invested is not rewarded from a financial standpoint to the level that you invested. And so if I invest 100 euros and my neighbor invests 1,000 euros, at the end of the day, if we distribute dividends... For two, three, four percent, which is typical in the corporate movement and most of the energy communities that we know in Europe, you will get four percent of a thousand euro. You will not get four percent of a hundred, just to be clear. But at the end of the day, we get the same rights to decide, should we distribute this money or should we keep it in the business to make sure that we can continue having projects? And so that's really where at the end of the day, it's very simple. It's not rocket science, something that happened forever. The other thing as well that I find interesting is the interface of that with... the typical private finance of, well, I need to make sure that my return is here. If I'm a professional investor, I need to make sure that my return is here. And at the end of the day, nothing wrong with that. If it's your job to make sure that money is actually working, then it's understandable that you want a clear return. You can still do that through those hybrid models where, for example, in Italy right now, there is a product that you can get as an investor that will allow you to guarantee a certain level of return. minus the risk, obviously, which is linked not to the fact that you are a member of the community, but rather that you are an investment support. So it's a different category of share. You don't necessarily get the governance rights, just like the rest of the community, because at the end of the day, you're not part of the community. But you get veto rights and controlling rights on the distribution of the dividends, allowing you to guarantee your return long term. And so that's really this kind of model that we're trying to look at right now. If you look at what Energy Partagé, for example, is doing in France, they really looked at how do we share the value of the project. Obviously, we need to reward all the actors. It's not to say, ah, community actors need to get all the value. No, obviously, we should get some value because the community is the prime holder of the project, both in terms of the ownership and in terms of... also bearing the consequence of the existence of the energy project. But it's obviously everybody should get a share. Municipality, the financiers, operators, developers. And so really then the conversation of co-development becomes very interesting. I'm saying, okay, how do we ensure that everybody can have a safe business model? How can we ensure that everybody gets the right value? But we all have the same understanding. At the end of the day, we're trying to get more renewables. better renewables as well that will fit into a broader system. And we need to create local job, local economic drive, local growth and skills. So that's really what we're looking at at the end of the day. And then allowing for that partnership to be with everybody on the same point rather than a competition partnership. I think this is a very key drive in the community energy movement. It's not about competition. We're not trying to compete with one another. We're trying to collaborate together for a better world. And so that makes a big difference as well in the relationship with our partners currently.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's cooperation instead of competition. And I love that. It's really like, I feel it's a common thing among the people who were my guests in this podcast, because everybody really wants to share their insights and really want to make their solutions somehow. more mainstream and i really like that i mean i'm really grateful for the speakers to be so so generous really with their with their ideas and with their business models with their projects and so on and so so let uh let me ask you one uh one thing uh really one piece of advice so one or two key lessons you would like to to offer to uh potential listeners who would be keen to contribute or start their own community energy project.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. What I will not do is tell you what to do. That would be counterintuitive to exactly what I've just been telling you for the past 40 minutes. What I will tell you is what was my experience here in Brussels when we built the first citizen energy community in Brussels called Brupower. And when we built that community, we started in a very difficult context. Brussels has a very high energy poverty rate. Our buildings are very poorly renovated. Our energy market is terrible. There's only two suppliers available. One being Total, one being Engie. So I can tell you it's not amazing. Not to say that they're doing a bad job, just to say that there's not a lot of choice. And so when we started, we took on something that people told us was impossible. To build an energy community and to do that with people in a place where there's a high rate of poverty. And the reality now, as we are about to launch our first project, it's actually going to be put into operation next Monday. It is true, actually. It was a lot harder than we thought. So just the first advice is one, it's going to be a lot harder than you thought. Absolutely. And you should always listen to the people that are telling you, be careful, be careful. It's very hard. It's complicated. You know, you should listen to your banker. Yes, you're potentially, he's potentially right to say that your project is difficult.
Speaker #0
But at the same time, you should always listen as well to your partners, to the people around you, to your community that is telling you this is too important to give up. And I think that's really what is the main message here is at the end of the day, we all have a choice to make. Whoever it is, maybe a financier, maybe a community member, maybe we all have a choice to make. And we have to make that choice together. So we have to drive in the right direction. I think one of the interactions that really... left an imprint in my mind was when we did our first fundraising round and, you know, we were raising a very significant amount of money for us. We were raising 400,000 euros and we didn't think that we were going to make it because at the end of the day, we did six months, nothing really happened. People started telling us we did too much. And then we received a single time investment of 20,000 euros for a single person, which to me is enormous. 20,000 euros is incredible. So at the beginning, my first reaction was, oh, this is a mistake. So I'm going to write to that person and let them know that they made a mistake. And also, also...
Speaker #1
One or two extra zero.
Speaker #0
Voilà, that's it. You probably made one zero extra or two. And then also to remind them of the rules of the cooperative, which are very, very tight, right? He will only be able to get his investment back after six years. It's, you know, limited returns. And I received the most wonderful email in return saying... You're very emotional. I didn't think it was going to be that hard. He literally wrote me an email saying, listen, not only check yourself, you need to know that I actually wanted to put 20,000 euros. I checked my amounts before saying send, which is okay. And the second part was, we think that you're going to do great things with this money. And we really believe in what you're doing. And at the end of the day, that's important enough for us to do. you know It's not that we don't need that money, but we do believe that at the end of the day, you will do what you said you will do and that we will see that money back. And that, you know, whatever the return, we invested in the right thing. We invested in the future of our children. And I think this answer, which was very simple at the end of the day, is just, no, I made an investment. I know what I'm doing. I am capable of making a financial analysis. It was really wonderful because it really showed, you know, that people care, that people actually want to make that difference. And so
Speaker #1
I have trust in you. they put their trust in you.
Speaker #0
Exactly. And at the end, it all relies on that. It all relies on the trust. It all relies on the beliefs that we have together. And at the end of the day, I'm sure that we'll make it. And I'm sure that I'll be more than happy in six years from now to hopefully not give him his money back, but to deliver to him his first dividends on his returns and to make sure that he knows that he made a difference in the creation of the community, which obviously I'm sure that we are not the most performant part of his portfolio, but at least he made a difference. for a lot of people around here.
Speaker #1
That's super inspiring. So people with deep pockets, please reach out to Stan for our energy projects. And yeah, I mean, that's also, that's such an interesting story also because, you know, one of the key aspects, of course, of the energy transition is like the renovation of the building and so on. And somehow if you decide to invest in your own solar panels or in your own... let's say, retrofitting of your home by putting a heat pump or renovating it. Yeah, maybe you get some money back, but it's only for you. Whereas in that case, it was really about the community and delivering for the community and mostly delivering for those who could benefit, but who are actually not capable of putting any money at first. I mean, maybe they can put... They have all the skills or talents they can share, but maybe they are not able to put any money because of many reasons and many circumstances that are present to them. So that's really great. I mean, thank you, person, generous contributor in Brussels.
Speaker #0
I won't give his name right now because he didn't give me the green light to do that, but I definitely carry, we all carrying him in our arms, definitely.
Speaker #1
That's brilliant. Can you share one or two more things about the Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels and how it will really look like?
Speaker #0
What we hope to build is an organization that will be able to deliver cheaper kilowatt hours for all Bosselliers here in Brussels. And so what we started with is something that is very new in Brussels called energy sharing that is meant to allow us to basically deliver. kilowatt hours that we produce through rooftop installations directly to our members. And that allows us, thanks to the Brussels law, to provide with the cheaper kilowatt hours. Relatively, it's between 20% and 25% cheaper than a traditional fixed contract on the energy. So that's the vision. We already are starting to implement rooftop PV across the region. We are lucky enough to also partner with several Brussels municipalities, as well as large public buildings, to also implement this production. And Brutpower really is looking at bringing citizens together to understand, Yes. the production side of things to get cheaper kilowatt hours, but also to understand how can we as a region be more sustainable. And so what it means really is that the production side is going to be important, but the more important side is the sobriety aspect. And how can we change the way we consume energy and understand energy so that we can all better take advantage of it? Because we are such a big city, very urban area, we will need anyway the support of the other regions in Belgium. And so... We need to understand also the role that we have compared to that. The vision of Brutpower then is at some point to take on the supply as well in order to be able to be providing the entire bill of our members. So Brutpower was built two years ago by a group of 10 founders. And we are now looking to invest. We built our first project. We're looking to invest into... and much more until the end of the year. We are planning to get to 1.5 megawatt installed in, I think, a year and a half, so basically 2026. So it's hopefully going to make a difference for a significant number of people. You can join the cooperative very easily. We decided by design to make the share very low. So we have a 50 euro share, which granted is a lot for some people, but it's is considerably lower than most corporates in Belgium. And we also offer the opportunity for people then to join into different information activities to better understand the energy sector, better understand also the energy bill, which is very complex here in Brussels. So that's basically the project. On the face of it, rather simple.
Speaker #1
That's great. Thank you so much for all those insights, Stan. And yes, that really sounds very exciting for Brussels. And I mean, I'm not talking about Brussels EU policy making, but really Brussels, like Brussels people who are really. Yeah, for once, it's a. Yeah, it's lovely to hear a direct communication between those two words, because we talked about really like EU policy and the many, many facets of EU policies. And now we can like how we can actually deliver for the people. And that's that's really super inspiring because I mean. For once, your bubble is speaking to Brussels, Brussels, to the Zinneker. And that's really so nice and so empowering. Thank you so much, Dan.
Speaker #0
With pleasure. And I think one thing that I might add as well for the people that are in the finance world and want to look at something that works. I recommend that you go and take a look at what Bruxelles Finance & Invest has been doing here in Brussels because they helped us significantly. With BluePower, it's also one of the mechanisms that we're looking into with ACE. And it's a fantastic mechanism, both in terms of the equity investment, in terms of the debt investment as well, or the debt provision. So great job to them. They also helped us significantly as well. And, you know, I think we, strangely enough, we are very, I mean, we are very lucky, obviously, to be in Brussels because of all the great people and the bubble and so on and so forth. we have a a wealth of knowledge and understanding that is also coming to us and the corporatives. But we're also very lucky on the fact that, you know, you've been to Brussels, you lived here for quite a while. And it's at the end of the day, it's a village. And maybe sometime we are a bit too focused on the outside. And it feels good to also focus on ourselves a little bit.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Dan. Thank you for your generosity and for all those really interesting tips. And as you said, the energy community and energy citizenship is only at its beginning. So let's keep on being inspired by practices like ProPower and models like ProPower. So thank you so much.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the Just Energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. I'm Marine Cornelis, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer. And it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes. And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.

Chapters

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness
3sec
Interview with Stanislas D'Herbemont: Community Energy Insights
1min
Stanislas' Journey into Community Energy
2min
Challenges in Financing Community Energy Projects
6min
The Role of Trust in Energy Financing
17min
Advice for Starting Community Energy Projects
28min
Overview of Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels
34min

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Energ’Ethic - Climate Justice and Energy Transition

Energ’Ethic is a podcast exploring the human, institutional, and ethical dimensions of the energy transition.

Listen to Energ’Ethic to:

Hear first-hand perspectives from those shaping energy and climate policy from the inside
Understand how governance, regulation, and technology affect consumers and communities
Explore energy and climate justice through practical, experience-based insights

Energ’Ethic speaks to an engaged audience of decision-makers and practitioners working at the intersection of policy, markets, cities, and society.

Organisations can partner with Energ’Ethic to support high-quality dialogue and reach a thoughtful, policy-literate audience committed to a fair and resilient energy transition.

Listen, subscribe, and join the conversation.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness

3sec

Interview with Stanislas D'Herbemont: Community Energy Insights

1min

Stanislas' Journey into Community Energy

2min

Challenges in Financing Community Energy Projects

6min

The Role of Trust in Energy Financing

17min

Advice for Starting Community Energy Projects

28min

Overview of Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels

34min

Transcription

Speaker #0
The energy transition is happening, but is it fair? Is it working for people like you and me, or just for big market players? Welcome to Energetic. I am Marine Cornelis, an expert in energy and climate policies, and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. Activists, scientists, policy makers, the real people making real change, often against the odds. Here, we do not settle for surface-level takes. We dig into the challenges, the solutions and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. And in doing so, we rediscover something vital, our ability to trust in institutions, to believe in change and to reclaim our power to act. Because if we want just resilience, if we want to just transition, we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. And more importantly, we need to believe that we can. Let's get into it. When I first spoke with Stanislas D'Herbemont of Rescoop.eu, his words left a deep mark. He explained how communities, even when they deliver clean energy, jobs and social value, are often forced to pay a risk premium simply for being democratic. Banks look at citizen ownership and see dilution. They look at participation and see instability. At the time, this felt like a quiet but heavy inquiry, holding projects back. Today, with the ACE project coming close, his analysis feels even more urgent. Over the past weeks on Energetic, you've heard Junior and Bangala speak of energy as hope, and Chris Vrettos call for all hands on deck as communities mobilize millions in Citizen Capital. This conversation shows that things are moving, but they also remind us why Stan's perspective still matters. Because the storm has not passed yet. Communities still face higher costs just for choosing democracy. Public guarantees, social climate fund plans and ethical finance can't change that tide, but only if we keep pushing. So as we gather in Brussels on 7 October for the ACE closing event, I want us to revisit Stan's voices. This episode is like the keel of the ship. It shows the barrier we need to overcome and And it helps us measure how far we've sailed. So let's listen again. Stan, I'm so happy to have you with me today. And it's such a nice follow-up with the episode we recorded with Antonia Kroger a few months ago. Thank you and welcome to Energetic.
Speaker #1
Thank you for having me, Marine. And I hope I will do as well as Antonia in your wonderful podcast. And thank you very much for the kind words in the introduction.
Speaker #0
So dig into your story first. Why? development manager at Rescoop. EU. What is your backstory? How did you get interested in community energy?
Speaker #1
Well, that's at the same time a very long and a very short story. The short part of the story is that when I joined the energy sector, I was given a chance by the members of Rescoop EU to join in as a team member of what was a very small secretariat at the time, already eight years ago. And a lot of people in the corporate movement believed in me. And I think that's why I'm still here today. The long story is when I finished university, I was trained in business administration. So I was originally an accountant, had nothing to do with energy or with community energy in general. And I got interested with my brother into a new concept that at the time was emerging called a community microgrid. A community microgrid is a technical concept that looked at a potential disconnection of a part of the grid. that allowed a high penetration of renewables from the technical standpoint, you know, leveraging ancillary services, leveraging a number of the technical services that are linked to microgrids. And what was our specific interest into that was the fact that there are certain of those microgrids that started implementing community engagement mechanisms and became community-driven, meaning they looked at how to recreate a link. from the infrastructure point of view to the citizens themselves and really trace that line between what is the energy, you know, the common parts of all our lives and the real experiences of that energy in real citizens' lives. And at that time, I was lucky enough to have a brother who worked for EDF. And so we went on a tour of Europe, visiting more than 15 research projects I'm looking at how to... conceptualize this community microgrid, how to make it happen in reality both from a technical standpoint and from a community standpoint, a realistic economic standpoint. And so we finished that trip at the General Assembly of Resco PU in 2016 looking at How could cooperatives really integrate into those concepts? And so that's how then I joined Resco PU. And since then, I never left. I started working on energy efficiency, which is an absolutely fascinating topic. It's really the bedrock of the transition. And I worked with wonderful, wonderful colleagues and projects that allowed me to really discover all the aspects, not only from the point of view of the technicalities, but also from the point of view of the engagement of people. into the transition. And that led me to then work into another project, which was the Compa project that looked at then the implementation of those kind of, you know, slightly disconnected areas of the grids that had a strong community focus. And in the Compa project, we worked with many companies as well, many private partners that looked at how to make that happen technically. And then what Rescopy was bringing to the table with our members, namely Zez and... Copernico in Portugal. Our goal was really to understand how we could make that happen from a community standpoint. How could we make that happen for the service of the people? And that allowed us as well to kind of follow the publication of the clean energy package at the time in 2018, 2019. The development of the concepts of renewable energy communities, citizen energy communities, and then the implementation. And yeah, here I am now, eight years later, working on something that Yeah, it's something that was unfortunate in most of the projects that I worked on, but that became a very intrinsic part of my experiences, the financing of this project. And really, how do you realize the community ownership aspect of that?
Speaker #0
So, indeed, finance seems to be the biggest culprit for many things to happen and not happen or not steer in the direction we would like it to be. and uh In French, we say l'argent, c'est le nerf de la guerre. I don't know if an equivalent expression exists in English, but basically it says that we actually need money to move things forward. So you have been working on various strategies to kind of steer the money in the direction of energy communities, basically, and financing these energy communities. And they are facing many pitfalls. So. What should they try to avoid? What could they do, these energy communities? And what is really your experience in that? I mean, you seem quite, seems to be quite a long journey.
Speaker #1
It is. It has been quite a long journey. But I think if I can use as well another French expression, sometimes it's important to have the means of our ambitions. Les moyens de nos ambitions. and so you know I think what was important for us as a federation was to really look at how do we concretely make that transition happen from a community standpoint. And then very quickly, we started to realize, okay, the reality in the energy sector is that the money is distributed in a very interesting way. And it's not really as straightforward. Interesting, some would say. Let's say it's not as straightforward as simply in other markets where it's kind of... the client's deciding. It's not really the case in the energy sector for good reasons. I think it's very important to realize that at the end of the day, energy is a special product. It is not something that is traded the same way as, I believe, clothes, which is what you were talking to me about before we joined that podcast or any form of other customer product. The point here for us was to understand, okay, when we invest, we make a choice. We make a choice for the world of the future. It was important for us to understand how can we steer that choice in the direction of community energy. Energy communities in general are creating a different vision of the world that we think most of the traditional liberalized energy companies are providing right now, which is a very market-driven point of view, very based on financial incentives and optimization. And the reality is... the vision behind energy communities and also behind the corporate movement to a certain extent was to create a different type of world, a world that is actually based on what is called wonderfully in the language of the commission co-benefits, right? As if finance was first and then co-benefits happen on the side. But the reality is that those co-benefits are the key essence of our experience as citizens. It is our social cohesion. It is the transition to a cleaner future for our children. It is allowing for each of us to have real control over both the sources and the allocation of the energy in our lives. And so this is really the core question that we keep talking about. How do we kind of realize that in our current world? And the reality is that then, yes, Marina, I agree with you. Money is the key issue. Money is not necessarily the end, but it's the mean that we use for the allocation of our resources that are finite. And so that's where the debate started. It started at how can we allocate the resources that we have to make sure that the transition to energy democracy happened in Europe tomorrow. And from that point of view, what we started to look at is what is the expression of the community energy movement. which is really all the initiatives in the energy sector that are driven by citizens. And it's the community ownership aspect. The fact that we own, we control, which are also two different things that are strongly interlinked. We control the projects that are the outcome of our actions as citizens. And so we looked at energy communities. We looked at how they are financed. We looked at how we partner as well with public and private entities. and We did that through a project called ACE, which you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, which is Access to Capital for Community Energy, and which is really a project that looked at what are the type of models in terms of sharing the value between the different financing partners? And how do we make more energy communities happen with strong, viable projects through time? What was interesting then for me was to understand that, yes, there are a number of limitations currently in our world around community financing. The first of which is... An issue of risk. As you know, most of the, let's say, structural financing players, the banks, the financial institutions, do not necessarily talk in euros, but talk in risk. Is it a risky project? It is not a risky project. And that's how they value really the investment that they're making. The key problem with community energy is that it has been considered historically as a very risky investment partner. Why? Because of... unclear reasons because they are small because their ownership structure is diluted because their control is democratic because they are unfamiliar just to be clear because they feel removed from the way traditional financing partners are built and so therefore the understanding is very it's much more difficult and therefore when the understanding is difficult the assessment is also much more risky. And so most communities usually pay a premium. on their financing, which obviously, I mean, is most SMEs will tell you is a reality of the world, but at the same time is strongly impairing the scaling of those projects, which at the end of the day are not financially optimized. They're optimized for other things. They're optimized for the social cohesion. They're optimized for the inclusivity, the responsibility, the benefits to the local community, but they're not optimized for how much cash am I going to get out of my production project? How much cash am I going to get out of my windmill? Or, you know, how am I going to deliver this premium asset for my portfolio? That is not something that community energy organizations really look at.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they are reinventing some norms. They are reinventing somehow some standards. And traditional investors, they are not familiar with that, so they don't really trust them. And I mean, the two previous episodes of this podcast were really about norms and international norms and standards and how important they are to build trust. really foster trust and make sure that customers follow. But it's not only about customer, it's about the banks, it's about any kind of investors, any kind of money, whether private or public as well. I mean, you've been working with both channels, if I'm correct.
Speaker #1
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there is two parts in your statement here. There is the first thing, which is the trust building exercise, which is so important. And the funny thing is that... when we see in certain areas where the trust is already pre-built, like when there is a very strong ethical corporate banking movement, for example, like in Italy, the projects are getting financed quite easily. But then when you go into countries like Croatia, for example, where the trust does not exist at all, it's something that feels very foreign, then suddenly it's almost impossible to finance those projects. What we see there, and it's good that you mentioned the public and the private side of finance. Obviously, to finance a transition, we will need both. We will need public investments and private financiers as well to get engaged. However, there is a very clear difference in the roles. Public finance has always been in Europe, a kind of a front runner, a leader into looking at what can be done to, you know, trigger openings, either in the market or at least openings related to public policy objectives. And that's really what we see, where we see the opportunities for energy communities. We do see a lot of programs being developed for energy communities. Sometimes, you know, with a good understanding, sometimes with not such a good understanding, but at least really trying to push in that direction. And we really encourage that as well. What we encourage now a little bit more, though, is that those public institutions take a much more... blunt approach to the problem. It's not enough anymore to just measure the funding gap and to say, oh yeah, we will add a little bit on top and hope for those initiatives to survive. It will not work because we are facing very structural problem in the financing market. We need public financiers to really take the role that is theirs and take a step forward in terms of financing those projects structurally, not only in terms of the funding gap, which is mostly grants at that moment, but also in terms of the debt. in terms of the guarantees which are available for public institutions, for example, but are not so available for energy communities. The second part is the private financiers. And there, the debate is a little bit more complicated. Obviously, there is a trust problem. I would say that there is also an understanding problem. And that problem is from both sides. Most energy communities today are not ready to provide ESG credit guarantees, for example, for private financiers. They're not ready to really reach for those large portfolio programs. But this is changing. And one of the key things that we learned from the ACE project is that the capabilities of the movement are there. We're talking about the last 18 months in France, Energy Partagé invested 140 million euros in the movement. In the Netherlands, Energy Summer is currently running several funds of upwards of 200 million euros invested in the past 18 months. So we're talking about volumes that start to be making sense for private financiers. But then we come to the next part of the explanation, because there is one part, which is obviously the risk taking. And then the other part, which is the fact that you cannot deal with energy communities the same way that you deal with traditional projects. You need to understand their specific needs. Obviously, there we're talking about democratically governed and owned projects. And so the typical kind of financing timeline for a startup will not work there. We're not trying to look for angel investors that will come in. Yeah,
Speaker #0
it's a venture capital.
Speaker #1
Voilà, exactly. We're not talking about the traditional cascade of funding that you usually have in the private sector. Here, we need products that will fit into the true benefits of energy communities. And so I talked about ESGs. That's obviously one avenue that we're exploring, trying to valorize those quote-unquote co-benefits to the local community, but also to the world at large. And the second part is also trying to understand how can we structure deals that will make everybody feel safe? How do we spread the value in a way that makes sense for everybody? And there are a couple of things that we experimented with our hybrid products, for example, where we have equity or quasi equity that acts like that, where you guarantee a certain return for private financiers. Obviously, we're talking very long term. We are also talking about something that has a clear return and that can allow for energy communities to gather the financing that they need. The last thing that I will add is we all need to realize that there is a kind of a weird understanding in the financing world regarding the performance of certain projects. Performance is everywhere. What is my investment performance? And the problem is that most community energy projects have been placed in the high risk, high performance category, most of them. Obviously, they are not very high performance from a financial standpoint. It's clear. It's not the point either. But the problem is also that I tend to think that the quality of those investments have been heavily undervalued. Most community energy projects, most community energy organizations last very long. They are very sustainable through time. They do happen to be rather conservative in their investment profiles. But the reality is we are not building something that's going to disappear in five years. We're building something that's going to be here in 50 years so that our kids and our grandkids can be members of the cooperative. It's not about trying to make a quick buck. And so the point here is we think, at least from the point of view of me and my colleagues, at least that's my personal opinion, is that I think there is a need for better understanding the quality of those projects and valuing energy communities for what they are, which is a structural... organization in the local at the local level that will stay for a very long time that will have a goal which is not crazy investments but that will be to deliver long-term value through time and that's something that i believe most investors should understand and appreciate better yeah
Speaker #0
that's that's really really so interesting because as we like more globally talk about sustainability we think more and more about like the impact of our purchase of our let's say our daily actions, etc. And more and more, the question of finance moves to the top of the agenda. There were also discussions at COP. I mean, it's becoming really one of the... most exposed points because somehow many banks are still financing fossil fuel industries and polluting businesses and so on and we need to move beyond that for the sake of our planet, for the sake of humanity. And what, if I understand correctly, the idea of energy communities is really so sustainable that is built really to be as something steady that she doesn't really need to move up and down and be traded and move from one person to another. So it doesn't seem to be like the thing you will make a lot of money from if you are, let's say, in this kind of...
Speaker #1
It's not an excuse.
Speaker #0
No,
Speaker #1
exactly.
Speaker #0
We're not looking at that. Yeah, I mean, I remember the film Wall Street in the 80s. It's exactly not what you would see in the portfolio of... of the Wolf of Wall Street, right? Because somehow it's the impact on society, on really on the environment is so much stronger and so much broader that actually everybody who's concerned about climate should be thinking of investing in an energy community. But the thing is the intermediaries, so the bankers, they have cold feet, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's partly that and it's partly, I think, the financing world. At the end, it looks very fast when you look at movies, but the reality is that it's very slow in the background. It's those gigantic organizations that move very slowly. And our understanding is that it's normal. It's not a problem. It's not a criticism. It's just a normal thing. Today, we see more and more customers of banks asking for those green investments. The reality is that the highest performing investments are the ones that have highest ratings, the ones that actually are quote unquote green. We see popping up, you know, different types of investments, portfolios claiming high quality green. The problem is the greenwashing. Recently, the commission has implemented new standards to try to avoid that. The CRC 3Ds also now have been voted to actually be implemented as well for the European level. So we hope that those standards are kind of like coming together and making it clear that greenwashing will not be the point. but obviously you know If you want to take advantage of things, you can always take advantage of things. What we are looking for here, and that's really the message that for me is important. And that's why I hear from you as well, Marianne, is let's be responsible. Let's be responsible. At the end of the day, the customers want it. Definitely, 100%. Most of them are co-financing the investment of the bank in there. Just to be clear, they are also members. They are putting their own money on the line. So the question here is, let's take a stance together. And that's really that. And not only because we are an ethical bank, but because we believe that we can make a better future tomorrow. That's really the point. And I think it will become a reality. Granted, I'm an optimist at heart, but I do believe that at some point, the tide will turn and we will see heavy investment in energy communities and those kind of high impact qualitative projects. that will bring value to the local community. Not because it's going to be the new El Dorado, but because this is the right thing to do. And because at the end of the day, we all need to live together. And so we need to put our money where our mouth is. That's really the main point.
Speaker #0
That's really something you've been advocating for the concept of citizens' property in the energy sector. And how would you define it for somebody who's hearing that term for the first time? And it's one of the things, the most interesting things, I think, about this kind of citizens property approach is that you manage to uncouple financial investment and financial structures from the governance. So how does that work in practice?
Speaker #1
Right. So, I mean, for us and just citizen property or community ownership, as we call it, is really structured around, as you said, separating the governance right from the financing right. And that idea that it doesn't really matter how much you are. willing or able to invest. What matters is that you're invested and that you're part of the community. The operationalization of that is really through usually concepts of one member, one vote or governance by college, depending however you prefer to implement it in your country as well. And it looks at a way of collective decision that does not rely on the amount of money that you invested, but rather on the fact that you want to be part of the group and the decision together. Mind you, it doesn't mean that... the formal amount that you invested is not rewarded from a financial standpoint to the level that you invested. And so if I invest 100 euros and my neighbor invests 1,000 euros, at the end of the day, if we distribute dividends... For two, three, four percent, which is typical in the corporate movement and most of the energy communities that we know in Europe, you will get four percent of a thousand euro. You will not get four percent of a hundred, just to be clear. But at the end of the day, we get the same rights to decide, should we distribute this money or should we keep it in the business to make sure that we can continue having projects? And so that's really where at the end of the day, it's very simple. It's not rocket science, something that happened forever. The other thing as well that I find interesting is the interface of that with... the typical private finance of, well, I need to make sure that my return is here. If I'm a professional investor, I need to make sure that my return is here. And at the end of the day, nothing wrong with that. If it's your job to make sure that money is actually working, then it's understandable that you want a clear return. You can still do that through those hybrid models where, for example, in Italy right now, there is a product that you can get as an investor that will allow you to guarantee a certain level of return. minus the risk, obviously, which is linked not to the fact that you are a member of the community, but rather that you are an investment support. So it's a different category of share. You don't necessarily get the governance rights, just like the rest of the community, because at the end of the day, you're not part of the community. But you get veto rights and controlling rights on the distribution of the dividends, allowing you to guarantee your return long term. And so that's really this kind of model that we're trying to look at right now. If you look at what Energy Partagé, for example, is doing in France, they really looked at how do we share the value of the project. Obviously, we need to reward all the actors. It's not to say, ah, community actors need to get all the value. No, obviously, we should get some value because the community is the prime holder of the project, both in terms of the ownership and in terms of... also bearing the consequence of the existence of the energy project. But it's obviously everybody should get a share. Municipality, the financiers, operators, developers. And so really then the conversation of co-development becomes very interesting. I'm saying, okay, how do we ensure that everybody can have a safe business model? How can we ensure that everybody gets the right value? But we all have the same understanding. At the end of the day, we're trying to get more renewables. better renewables as well that will fit into a broader system. And we need to create local job, local economic drive, local growth and skills. So that's really what we're looking at at the end of the day. And then allowing for that partnership to be with everybody on the same point rather than a competition partnership. I think this is a very key drive in the community energy movement. It's not about competition. We're not trying to compete with one another. We're trying to collaborate together for a better world. And so that makes a big difference as well in the relationship with our partners currently.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's cooperation instead of competition. And I love that. It's really like, I feel it's a common thing among the people who were my guests in this podcast, because everybody really wants to share their insights and really want to make their solutions somehow. more mainstream and i really like that i mean i'm really grateful for the speakers to be so so generous really with their with their ideas and with their business models with their projects and so on and so so let uh let me ask you one uh one thing uh really one piece of advice so one or two key lessons you would like to to offer to uh potential listeners who would be keen to contribute or start their own community energy project.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. What I will not do is tell you what to do. That would be counterintuitive to exactly what I've just been telling you for the past 40 minutes. What I will tell you is what was my experience here in Brussels when we built the first citizen energy community in Brussels called Brupower. And when we built that community, we started in a very difficult context. Brussels has a very high energy poverty rate. Our buildings are very poorly renovated. Our energy market is terrible. There's only two suppliers available. One being Total, one being Engie. So I can tell you it's not amazing. Not to say that they're doing a bad job, just to say that there's not a lot of choice. And so when we started, we took on something that people told us was impossible. To build an energy community and to do that with people in a place where there's a high rate of poverty. And the reality now, as we are about to launch our first project, it's actually going to be put into operation next Monday. It is true, actually. It was a lot harder than we thought. So just the first advice is one, it's going to be a lot harder than you thought. Absolutely. And you should always listen to the people that are telling you, be careful, be careful. It's very hard. It's complicated. You know, you should listen to your banker. Yes, you're potentially, he's potentially right to say that your project is difficult.
Speaker #0
But at the same time, you should always listen as well to your partners, to the people around you, to your community that is telling you this is too important to give up. And I think that's really what is the main message here is at the end of the day, we all have a choice to make. Whoever it is, maybe a financier, maybe a community member, maybe we all have a choice to make. And we have to make that choice together. So we have to drive in the right direction. I think one of the interactions that really... left an imprint in my mind was when we did our first fundraising round and, you know, we were raising a very significant amount of money for us. We were raising 400,000 euros and we didn't think that we were going to make it because at the end of the day, we did six months, nothing really happened. People started telling us we did too much. And then we received a single time investment of 20,000 euros for a single person, which to me is enormous. 20,000 euros is incredible. So at the beginning, my first reaction was, oh, this is a mistake. So I'm going to write to that person and let them know that they made a mistake. And also, also...
Speaker #1
One or two extra zero.
Speaker #0
Voilà, that's it. You probably made one zero extra or two. And then also to remind them of the rules of the cooperative, which are very, very tight, right? He will only be able to get his investment back after six years. It's, you know, limited returns. And I received the most wonderful email in return saying... You're very emotional. I didn't think it was going to be that hard. He literally wrote me an email saying, listen, not only check yourself, you need to know that I actually wanted to put 20,000 euros. I checked my amounts before saying send, which is okay. And the second part was, we think that you're going to do great things with this money. And we really believe in what you're doing. And at the end of the day, that's important enough for us to do. you know It's not that we don't need that money, but we do believe that at the end of the day, you will do what you said you will do and that we will see that money back. And that, you know, whatever the return, we invested in the right thing. We invested in the future of our children. And I think this answer, which was very simple at the end of the day, is just, no, I made an investment. I know what I'm doing. I am capable of making a financial analysis. It was really wonderful because it really showed, you know, that people care, that people actually want to make that difference. And so
Speaker #1
I have trust in you. they put their trust in you.
Speaker #0
Exactly. And at the end, it all relies on that. It all relies on the trust. It all relies on the beliefs that we have together. And at the end of the day, I'm sure that we'll make it. And I'm sure that I'll be more than happy in six years from now to hopefully not give him his money back, but to deliver to him his first dividends on his returns and to make sure that he knows that he made a difference in the creation of the community, which obviously I'm sure that we are not the most performant part of his portfolio, but at least he made a difference. for a lot of people around here.
Speaker #1
That's super inspiring. So people with deep pockets, please reach out to Stan for our energy projects. And yeah, I mean, that's also, that's such an interesting story also because, you know, one of the key aspects, of course, of the energy transition is like the renovation of the building and so on. And somehow if you decide to invest in your own solar panels or in your own... let's say, retrofitting of your home by putting a heat pump or renovating it. Yeah, maybe you get some money back, but it's only for you. Whereas in that case, it was really about the community and delivering for the community and mostly delivering for those who could benefit, but who are actually not capable of putting any money at first. I mean, maybe they can put... They have all the skills or talents they can share, but maybe they are not able to put any money because of many reasons and many circumstances that are present to them. So that's really great. I mean, thank you, person, generous contributor in Brussels.
Speaker #0
I won't give his name right now because he didn't give me the green light to do that, but I definitely carry, we all carrying him in our arms, definitely.
Speaker #1
That's brilliant. Can you share one or two more things about the Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels and how it will really look like?
Speaker #0
What we hope to build is an organization that will be able to deliver cheaper kilowatt hours for all Bosselliers here in Brussels. And so what we started with is something that is very new in Brussels called energy sharing that is meant to allow us to basically deliver. kilowatt hours that we produce through rooftop installations directly to our members. And that allows us, thanks to the Brussels law, to provide with the cheaper kilowatt hours. Relatively, it's between 20% and 25% cheaper than a traditional fixed contract on the energy. So that's the vision. We already are starting to implement rooftop PV across the region. We are lucky enough to also partner with several Brussels municipalities, as well as large public buildings, to also implement this production. And Brutpower really is looking at bringing citizens together to understand, Yes. the production side of things to get cheaper kilowatt hours, but also to understand how can we as a region be more sustainable. And so what it means really is that the production side is going to be important, but the more important side is the sobriety aspect. And how can we change the way we consume energy and understand energy so that we can all better take advantage of it? Because we are such a big city, very urban area, we will need anyway the support of the other regions in Belgium. And so... We need to understand also the role that we have compared to that. The vision of Brutpower then is at some point to take on the supply as well in order to be able to be providing the entire bill of our members. So Brutpower was built two years ago by a group of 10 founders. And we are now looking to invest. We built our first project. We're looking to invest into... and much more until the end of the year. We are planning to get to 1.5 megawatt installed in, I think, a year and a half, so basically 2026. So it's hopefully going to make a difference for a significant number of people. You can join the cooperative very easily. We decided by design to make the share very low. So we have a 50 euro share, which granted is a lot for some people, but it's is considerably lower than most corporates in Belgium. And we also offer the opportunity for people then to join into different information activities to better understand the energy sector, better understand also the energy bill, which is very complex here in Brussels. So that's basically the project. On the face of it, rather simple.
Speaker #1
That's great. Thank you so much for all those insights, Stan. And yes, that really sounds very exciting for Brussels. And I mean, I'm not talking about Brussels EU policy making, but really Brussels, like Brussels people who are really. Yeah, for once, it's a. Yeah, it's lovely to hear a direct communication between those two words, because we talked about really like EU policy and the many, many facets of EU policies. And now we can like how we can actually deliver for the people. And that's that's really super inspiring because I mean. For once, your bubble is speaking to Brussels, Brussels, to the Zinneker. And that's really so nice and so empowering. Thank you so much, Dan.
Speaker #0
With pleasure. And I think one thing that I might add as well for the people that are in the finance world and want to look at something that works. I recommend that you go and take a look at what Bruxelles Finance & Invest has been doing here in Brussels because they helped us significantly. With BluePower, it's also one of the mechanisms that we're looking into with ACE. And it's a fantastic mechanism, both in terms of the equity investment, in terms of the debt investment as well, or the debt provision. So great job to them. They also helped us significantly as well. And, you know, I think we, strangely enough, we are very, I mean, we are very lucky, obviously, to be in Brussels because of all the great people and the bubble and so on and so forth. we have a a wealth of knowledge and understanding that is also coming to us and the corporatives. But we're also very lucky on the fact that, you know, you've been to Brussels, you lived here for quite a while. And it's at the end of the day, it's a village. And maybe sometime we are a bit too focused on the outside. And it feels good to also focus on ourselves a little bit.
Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Dan. Thank you for your generosity and for all those really interesting tips. And as you said, the energy community and energy citizenship is only at its beginning. So let's keep on being inspired by practices like ProPower and models like ProPower. So thank you so much.
Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the Just Energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. I'm Marine Cornelis, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer. And it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes. And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.

Chapters

Introduction to Energy Transition and Fairness

3sec

Interview with Stanislas D'Herbemont: Community Energy Insights

1min

Stanislas' Journey into Community Energy

2min

Challenges in Financing Community Energy Projects

6min

The Role of Trust in Energy Financing

17min

Advice for Starting Community Energy Projects

28min

Overview of Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels

34min