- Speaker #0
We need all hands on deck. We need to mobilize massive amounts of investment for the challenges that lie ahead in terms of decarbonization and also competitiveness. Because right now we all agree that decarbonization equals competitiveness and we cannot afford to leave the series behind.
- Speaker #1
The energy transition is happening, but is it fair? Is it working for people like you and me or just for big market players? Welcome to Energetic. I am Mayenne Cornelis, an expert in energy and climate policies, and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. Activists, scientists, policymakers, the real people making real change, often against the odds. Here, we do not settle for surface level takes. We dig into the challenges, the solutions, and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. And in doing so, we rediscover something vital. our ability to trust in institutions, to believe in change, and to reclaim our power to act. Because if we want just resilience, if we want just transition, we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. And more importantly, we need to believe that we can. Let's get into it. A little while ago, I spoke with the son, Debremon from Rescope EU, who reminded us that finance is often the senior support. in community energy, a make or break factor for projects that prioritize social value over pure profit. Today, we continue that conversation with someone who's been taking this challenge head on. My guest is Chris Veritas, who works with Rescope EU in Brussels. And Rescope is the European Federation of Energy Cooperatives. And he also works for ElectroEnergy in Greece. Chris is deeply involved in EU advocacy on renewable energy and citizen participation. with a sharp focus on how funding tools from the Social Climate Fund to the EU's multi-year budget can empower people rather than exclude them. Chris is here in the framework of the ACE project. ACE stands for Access to Capital for Community Energy. And over the past three years, ACE has been developing innovative collective financing tools so that local energy communities don't have to reinvent the wheel every time they want to launch. a solar rooftop district heating system or mobility project. The results speak for themselves because pilot schemes across Belgium, Germany, Croatia, Romania and Spain and beyond, of course, mobilized 738 million euros to new and existing community energy financing schemes and the mobilization of citizens' own savings into something with tangible social, environmental and economic returns. as As ACE draws to a close with this final event on 7 October, which I will have the pleasure to moderate, Chris and I will explore what has been achieved, what remains unfinished, and what it all means for the future of community energy in Europe. Chris, welcome to the show.
- Speaker #0
Great to be with you, Marine. Thanks for having me.
- Speaker #1
So, Chris, can you tell us how you became passionate about community energy? Was there a moment, perhaps back in Greece where you grew up, when you realized citizens had to be at the center of the end transition?
- Speaker #0
It was very random. I was working kind of as a freelance journalist in Greece and I was invited on the Rainbow Warrior, the boat of Greenpeace, where completely coincidentally one of my now colleagues at Elektra I was giving a presentation on the topic of energy communities and specifically the model of collective self-consumption, which is kind of what most energy communities work with in Greece. And I was like, OK, wow, there's a possibility for citizens to come together, invest in solar. So, you know, tackle climate change, which was and is a big passion for me, and reduce their energy bills and, you know, kind of contribute to more fair society. you know, count me in. I immediately went to him after the presentation. I was like, I want to get involved. And yeah, five years later, I had also the privilege to join Resco, to also have a more perspective of what's happening across the EU. And here we are today.
- Speaker #1
That's really cool. I don't hear that often. People really go into a place with one idea and then living with another. It's really these sliding door moments that we don't really realize when they happen, but then you actually realize it. That's really cool. How is it on the Rainbow Warriors? I've always been curious to know that.
- Speaker #0
it's definitely it's exciting yeah it's kind of has this energy it vibrates you feel like okay i am part of something bigger and something more important yeah and i think that speaks it goes back to your question like why did you get involved into to all of this and i think you know you we do live in an era of disidentification there's kind of a lack of social cohesion we more and more young people are finding it hard to identify with certain political currents so we just end up depoliticizing, scrolling on social media, not caring about the world because we cannot find anything to identify with. And I feel like the community energy movement gives you that sense of metaphorically and literally collective energy. You know, like you become part of something bigger, you feel like you're fighting the good fight. And yeah, that's kind of the feeling I had when I was on the Rainbow Water. Like, okay, here we're here to fight the good fight. So that's great.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's great. And, you know, I also... I read recently that when assessing students or, let's say, young people's behavior and understanding of climate change, actually what was making the difference was really to feel that they were part of a movement. If they were feeling that they were fighting alone, that it was like a side thing that nobody really cared about. But from the moment they realized that they were not alone in their fight. I mean, that was the remedy to apathy and to, let's say, also this kind of ego anxiety that you probably felt when you were putting your feet on this boat, literally. And that's also, I guess, one of the reasons why the community energy movement is so powerful. So you've been working at the Grassroots Initiative, right? And also at EU level advocacy. and I mean that's really nice because they are i've been doing the same and often i've met people who are very disconnected from reality and now you told me that you are moving to milan so you will also be a little bit closer to existing initiatives and daily struggles so how do you make that work how do you make the combination of those two worlds like eu policy and grassroots initiative work in your daily life i
- Speaker #0
think you can't have one without the other if we want to be honest It's great, you know, it feels very impactful to be working with EU policy and you're speaking with decision makers and you feel like you're kind of putting your little, little, let's say, contribution to something bigger. But at the same time, if that's isolated from the realities on the ground, then it becomes an ivory tower. And it's very self-referential. It's almost irrelevant, if you allow me. Whereas if you also kind of, and that's also the motto, the model, let's say, the strategic model of Rescopillo. We want a strong European federation, but also to keep growing strong national federations of energy communities at every member state. Exactly so that there is this connection between what's happening on the ground and what's happening at the EU level. Because, you know, we can pass all the great laws, all the great ideas, but if we don't raise the awareness, if we don't build the power from the bottom up, if we don't speak to people in their neighborhoods, in the workplaces, and actually...
- Speaker #1
make them understand what the energy transition is about and how they can co-benefit from it and how they can shape it then of course it's not going to go anywhere yeah yeah that's that's very very true it's also something i've observed and and many of my guests have also pointed out this uh those factors right uh from cedar run afghan europe to uh like monica um also i mean it's really about how things become really tangible. And money is one of... the, let's say, seniors of one of the roadblocks somehow. And when I spoke with Stan, we discussed how community projects often pay a kind of risk premium simply because banks don't understand their models. And I think bankers are human beings and they need to be educated as well on the benefits and on the impact as well. But, I mean, that goes way beyond that. So how do you feel that ACE has managed to... help change that perception?
- Speaker #0
I would say there's two main ways. One is that It basically created the framework, common language, as you correctly also said, for communities to speak with financiers. Many times, you know, because energy communities are bottom up, they're voluntary led, they don't have the tools, they don't know how to approach financiers and actually make a value proposition. And so that, look, we're bringing societal value, we're bringing environmental value, but it's not necessarily reflected in huge returns, huge economic returns, but we're bringing this extra value, we're tackling energy poverty. how do I translate that into a value proposition that is understandable to you? So that's the part of the financial literacy. And then there's also what we, this new term that we kind of created through the ACE project, the so-called community energy financing schemes. And these are sort of, let's say, almost revolving funds or let's say services, some sort of structure that the community organization creates to keep funding community energy projects.
- Speaker #1
So how does it work in practice?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so there were five countries in the project. There was Belgium, Croatia, Romania, the Netherlands, France and Spain. I think that was six, but they might have said five. And each of them had a very, very different, let's say, structure. So for example, in Spain, our partner Goyener provides a facilitation service between two ethical banks and small and energy communities on the ground. And basically what Goiner does is that it provides a standardized template, a business model template, that all the energy communities have to fill in. And, you know, kind of all the paperwork simplifies it, standardizes it so that they all feel the same thing. And then Goiner applies for a loan on their behalf.
- Speaker #1
So it cuts the red tape in a way. I mean, it doesn't cut the red tape, but it eases the red tape.
- Speaker #0
Yes, exactly. And it also reduces the risk for the banks because, you know, if you have a standardized template and if you have a trusted intermediary, then there's less risk. Yeah, there's less, let's say, space for error. Or in France and the Netherlands, we have, let's say, maybe the pioneer, the biggest community energy financing schemes. In the Netherlands, you have Energy Salmon, which is the National Federation of Energy Communities in the Netherlands. they created the so-called development fund which was capitalized by the national ministry the national government and for regions in the netherlands and the idea is that it provides loans to grants to start in community energy projects to cover the risky first stages of project development so it provides them with a loan of um let's say yeah for the development stage feasibility studies you know kind of the first steps And if then the project does not move forward, the loan is forgiven and it turns into a grant. Okay. So there is this built-in solidarity mechanism, you know, between the successful projects and the...
- Speaker #1
yeah. That's interesting because in fact there it's rare that there are actually dialogues between this kind of like grants and loans like it's something like either it's either or and for many let's say startup projects even like with community ones, that makes so much sense to have something like the right to forget and the right to try and to make mistakes and start better if you can, right?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, exactly. And what makes these community energy financing schemes really successful? And, you know, you said the numbers. We've seen that in about five years, they've crowded in more than 738 million euros for the energy transition. What makes them successful is that they have this another built-in mechanism which is technical assistance. You know, sometimes we have funds, EU funds. They exist. There's cohesion funds, there's a recovery facility, and they may put out a call for energy communities. But there's no applicants because there's a lot of red tape for a small community to access such a big EU fund. Whereas what happens with community energy financing schemes is that they have people going from region to region, from neighborhood to neighborhood. taking people by the hand and telling them there's this financing opportunity. Here's how you fill out this like templates. Here's like a proposed business model. I'll help guide you through the process. And this is really, really what we're asking from the EU as well, as Rescoop EU, to acknowledge this very important work that national federations of energy communities are doing in creating these financing schemes, in providing the technical assistance, because that's how you really get the money on the ground. So this peer-to-peer approach.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this part that you just mentioned, the peer-to-peer approach is like so fundamental because even if you are passionate about clean energy, if... Like you, let's say five years ago, when you put a step on the Rainbow Warrior and you realized that there was something to do, you didn't really have the skills or the tools to understand what and how you could make that happen. So you needed to get some peer learning to know how to make that happen. But you learned about, let's say, the technical bits. You learned about the policy. But you also needed someone to teach you about the financial aspects and all the process and the red tape and how to actually talk to the financiers, right?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, exactly.
- Speaker #1
How to speak their same language, because they speak a very, very different language, as we already mentioned, because they are used to certain kind of KPIs that may not be the one that the community, especially at its seeding stage, can see.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, exactly.
- Speaker #1
That's really, really interesting. So what I understand from the ACE project is that you managed to work on different streams, like the learning bit, the learning phase, peer-to-peer, very human-to-human, authentic, and based on actual challenges. So that must have been a really interesting part of the work. And then also the kind of how to make this stand in place, how to navigate this red tape and build the trust of... the financial institutions. And yeah, so that everybody could be around the same table and understand that some of the projects would succeed and some of them would fail, which gets back to the third point,
- Speaker #0
right? Yeah, exactly. And I think what's really interesting as well with this community and energy financing teams is that they create pipelines of projects. They bundle them into something that ultimately is attractive to a financier. that is used to looking at larger volumes, you know, looking at megawatts, gigawatts. So, you know, if your small neighborhood community puts out like a 100 kilowatt solar, that's probably not very interesting to finance here because there's not like a big investment there to mobilize. Whereas if you have a federation that creates a community energy financing scheme that bundles 10, 15, 50 of these small solar projects into a portfolio, it both spreads the risk. and it creates an attractive financing opportunity for financiers.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's so interesting because again you move from the, let's say, very local community energy that will be like around the neighborhood or village or something into something that is so much bigger but works as a proper social network in a way.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, exactly.
- Speaker #1
Yeah and that must have been quite also a big task from you guys at Resco.eu to put yourself in the shoes of the financiers, like to try to understand what they were looking for, right?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's still a lot of work to do in that sense. I think there's still a lot of capacity building that's needed. One of the things we are asking from the commission is some sort of, on a tape perhaps, an annual dialogue, some sort of platform where we can connects. financiers or specifically ethical and alternative financiers with the community energy sector. There can be more of a structured dialogue that the stakeholders can come together. We do see some opportunities as well in the upcoming EU budget. We have made some proposals as part also of the ACE project on how the European Investment Bank can play a greater role in unlocking funding for energy communities by creating some sort of InvestEU for energy community. So... You look at the European Investment Bank creating a guarantee scheme. It guarantees national banks. And then the national banks lend to energy communities because through the guarantee, they reduce the risk. Okay. So there's different ways to go about this. And we believe at Rescoop that there is a role both for this bottom-up community energy, let's say, financing schemes. But there's also a role for... policy and the European Investment Bank to step in and de-risk these projects.
- Speaker #1
Okay, and does that already exist in other sectors?
- Speaker #0
We're seeing it. There's an SME window in the InvestEU scheme, which is built on the same premise. Let's say that you're looking at smaller companies, they usually don't have easy access to credit, so yeah, how can you make it work? And it has been a quite successful program, so we don't don't want to reinvent the wheel here.
- Speaker #1
Okay, yeah, that's really interesting. So you've mobilized 738 million euros to new and existing community energy financial schemes. How did it work in practice? Maybe you have an example to share.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, we've already briefly talked about the Spanish and the Dutch examples, but maybe I can also, perhaps, you know, some people are listening and they're saying, okay, you know, big Western European countries with mature markets. But as I said, you know, we also have financing schemes being set up in Croatia and Romania. and there it's um It's still kind of in the setup phase of simpler, let's say, more small-scale schemes, such as in Romania, basically, the community energy financing scheme there is people collecting, let's say, investment through the cooperative and installing a collective solar park on top of a multi-apartment building or a public building, so it's rooftop solar in both cases. So they pay for the investment upfront, they install it, and then they get their money back with some sort of interest after a few years through the savings that the inhabitants of that building incur. So they inhabit, you know, let's say the inhabitants of the multi-apartment building, they pay less for electricity because of the solar and through the savings, they pay back the cooperative. Okay. So again, it's some sort of system of looking, thinking, okay, how do I create a sort of revolving Yeah, sustainable, let's say, financing schemes by cooperatives for community energy projects.
- Speaker #1
And it improves investment, right? Because if the community, the people who invested know they will get their money back, they may feel that it's more advantageous to leave their money to the community rather than sleep at the bank.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, where it's also devalued because of all of the inflation. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
exactly.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no, exactly. And I mean, look, we are facing a huge funding gap. Mario Draghi has said that we need 800 billion euros of additional investment every year. Just for climate, the European Commission estimates a 400 billion annual gap. We need city central board. We need all sorts of investments. And we're hearing that the commission is about to come out with an energy investment strategy now in Q3 2025. And this is our argument towards the Commission. Let the citizens be part of this. They do really have a very strong potential to mobilize capital. This is not part of the ACE project per se, but in Belgium right now, there's a really big movement where all of the cooperatives of the country came together to create a secondary cooperative called SICUP, which is claiming a 10% stake in the new offshore wind tender that's going to come out in the next months. So they've already managed to mobilize over 2 million euros. Wow. Thousands, tens of thousands of Belgian citizens. So, you know, it's really, I think the potential is there. And exactly because cooperatives, they also have the trust. There is that trust within the members of the cooperative. It's easier to say, okay, guys, we're going, give us your money. We're going to invest it somewhere ethically. There's going to be returns.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, especially at a time where there is so much volatility on the market, so much mistrust. in you how governments will be using the money, etc. But I mean, you said that this kind of model also worked in Romania and Croatia, which may be countries where people have less liquidity in general. But you know, what happens for the people who cannot actually spend any money on the community energy project? Because if being part of it means that you can have to invest in it, How do you make that work? I know of a...
- Speaker #0
some projects who are kind of giving away some of the shares etc but is it a problem right at this stage no first of all thank you for posing that question because i think we need to keep having that reflexivity within the the community engine movement that just because it's community doesn't mean it's always inclusive so yeah that's that's the baseline but yeah no i think there's all sorts of models of of solidarity that we see in in greece people can basically buy the shares of energy vulnerable households so that they can join the community for free. In France, we have Enercoop, which is a cooperative supplier that charges a small solidarity levy to its customers and then uses that to reinvest into actions for energy poverty. There's all sorts of ways. But here, this is definitely somewhere where the EU can also play a role in supporting communities that specifically have, let's say, an orientation towards attacking energy poverty. Okay. One big, let's say, way is the Social Climate Fund. Yeah. It's upcoming. You know, we're going to have it in operation in a couple of months, in January 2026. And Rescoop is now coordinating over 40 organizations in creating the Social Climate Fund tracker. When we rate and analyze the different social climate plans of the member states to look, okay, are they, you know, are they planning, for example, any actions on energy communities and energy poverty? That's one of our criteria. Yeah. So that's definitely a fund that we're really closely looking at. And I think another good example is using grants. It could be also from the Social Climate Fund or through LIFE or other programs. Using grants to de-risk those first... stages of project development like like what you remember what we talked about in the netherlands with the community energy financing that's always the most risky part let's say stages of project development those first stages where you don't know are you going to get the permit paying the tech you know the engineers for the feasibility studies and all of that and as you correctly point out vulnerable households don't have the leeway to to to take that risk to say okay now I'm going to put 500 euros in this wind energy project and a way to see if it's going to be accepted and so on. So another really good example that's coming from the EU is the Enercom facility. This is a really big, more than 7 million euro program by CINEA, by the European Commission, to basically provide 45,000 euro lump sum grants to over 140 energy communities from across the EU. And the recipient community basically uses that money to create a robust business plan, you know, to kind of take the first steps of setting up a community. And again, this de-risking in the form of grants for the first stages is quite important. But again, yeah, we know grants are a scarce resource. We're not asking that all communities get grants. But especially if we're looking at communities that tackle energy poverty, or if there is a rationale. there's a logical basis to provide them with these de-risking grants.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, especially if it's, let's say, part of a broader conversation, if you have social organizations or, let's say, the municipality on board. I mean, I've been involved in another EU project that works also on exactly this, like with the, it's called PowerUp, and it's coordinated by Energy Cities. And I know some of the members of RISC-OP EU are... also part of power because there is the Belgian member which is part of it and really one of the key aspects is the fact that the community energy yeah of course you need to people who are motivated to make it happen but you also need to make the trust happen and that doesn't happen overnight you need uh really like uh a lot of let's say granular work and a lot of time speaking to the people, to the right people, to the right intermediaries, including, as you just explained, the financial intermediaries. Because there might be some processes that they don't know. There might be some grants that they are not aware of. There might be also some, maybe even in the village, the local, the area, there are some people who work in banks that would be enthusiastic, but they don't know how to mobilize it. So... I feel that this part of trying to assemble all the little pieces is so important. I mean, the podcast we just released like two weeks ago was with Junior and Bangala, who worked on energy community as a kind of horizon approach. So we are connected all like trees, all like plants, all like fungi, like horizon. And yeah, that's really nice to kind of see how that... can work in practice through financial education, financial mobilization, and so on. Do you feel that the banks that have been involved in the project or could be involved in the project, do you think there is enough education or awareness on the side of this kind of financial institutions? Because on my side, I see very much like how much a risk climate change is for the insurers. So they would be smart. to kind of invest in this kind of things as you know some kind of mitigation adaptation you know prevention of risk approach right but is it actually the case also so banks financial institutions are they seeing the opportunity there yeah
- Speaker #0
i think they're seeing it more and more we are starting now a collaboration also in the context of the ace project with the federation of of ethical and alternative banks for them. We're starting this matchmaking between members of EBEA, like, you know, ethical and alternative financiers, and members of Brescu to exactly facilitate these connections. As I said, in some countries, particularly in Western Europe, there is a very long tradition of, like in Germany, in Belgium, of banks actually speaking with energy communities because they know there's... There's solid financial returns, there's good reputational gains to be gained out of it, there's opening up to a completely new clientele. And if you kind of lend to a community energy project, you're lending to tens, if not hundreds of people. So you're potentially, you know, kind of raising awareness about your product to a whole new segment of society.
- Speaker #1
So marketing-wise, it's interesting.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, exactly. And again, ESG-wise, reputational-wise, I think it would make a lot of sense. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I mean, when we think of the ESG criteria, so environmental, social and governance, let's say that the environmental part seems to be way more understood than the social and the governance. But if the money is also going to a community energy project, the SMG, so the social and governance, profoundly embedded in the model, right? So that is kind of solving also this part of the triangle, right? Yeah,
- Speaker #0
exactly. Because the governance, it's multi-level governance, it's democratic governance, you have all sorts of people participating, often it's one member, one vote, because many times these are cooperatives. And then the societal part, yeah, you do have inclusion of all of our households, you do have inclusion of... underrepresented groups, you do have all sorts of actions of giving back and reinvesting your revenues to local community actions. So yeah, there's all sorts of social benefits there.
- Speaker #1
Really inspiring. I'm looking forward to the event in a couple of weeks. So the ACE final event, you will be, I will be moderating most of the conversation, but you will be moderating one session on the financial tools. And I will be there like reporting. with the Energetic podcast on that day. So our listeners will be able to tune in and learn a few things. I wanted to ask you, I mean, now to kind of look ahead because ACE is ending in November. What happens next? How can the tools and partnership you created will survive and scale?
- Speaker #0
We want to keep going for sure. The commission is coming forward with... the so-called citizen energy package, which is going to be a raft of measures to boost citizen energy at the member state level. We don't know yet the architecture, but we assume it's going to provide technical assistance, funding to member states, to municipalities, you know, to create community energy projects. And we really, in our submission to the consultation as ResCoop, we really highlight that, look, here's the results of this project. This is what federations can do in terms of creating. community energy financing schemes in terms of really mobilizing capital, implementing projects. So acknowledge them, work with them, instruct the member states to work with them, and let's keep expanding. Let's make sure that there's a strong community energy financing scheme in every country and that they could even kind of support each other through cross-border investments, which is also becoming more and more a priority of the EU.
- Speaker #1
Is it the message you would like to give to policymakers? Like, make sure you actually use and try not to reinvent the wheel because we've been doing some great work.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no, I think this is what, if you hear the Commissioner for Energy, like Mr. Jorgensen, or if you hear Mr. Hoekstra, Mrs. Rivera, like any of the commissioners working on climate and energy, they will say, we need all hands on deck. We need to mobilize massive amounts of investment for the challenges that lie ahead in terms of decarbonization and also competitiveness, because right now we all agree that decarbonization equals competitiveness. And we cannot afford to leave the series behind. I think that would be the concluding message.
- Speaker #1
No, I mean, that's so important and that's so true, especially when we have, let's say, people who are like actively trying to. undermine this kind of science-based knowledge around the fact that we need to decarbonize as fast as possible and socially fear as possible right so that's um that's extremely important yeah at the same time you are you yourself are have been moving to have just moved to italy and you will realize that the community energy landscape may be very different so that's going to be also quite an interesting learning curve. perhaps for you to discover really from the ground what is happening in some member states, right?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, we have some of the strongest members of our network are actually from Italy, like Enostra, for example, which is a cooperative supplier. But definitely, I agree that, and it goes back to the beginning of our conversation, we need the EU to bridge with the local, to have our feet on the ground and to understand the realities, to then report back to the EU, you know, to keep that cycle up.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, no, that's a different topic for a different conversation, but let's say that It's such an important topic. It's such an inspiring conversation. And, you know, I think it's really important to share the kind of best practice, just the fact that you mobilized 738 million euros. I mean, the figures I was looking into online was like 20 million. I mean, that's insane. Congratulations.
- Speaker #0
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, not me, the whole team. and the the hundreds of thousands of citizens that have invested into these schemes. But yeah.
- Speaker #1
Okay. So in a couple of weeks, we're going to celebrate them and really celebrate this first big milestone, right? Because it's just a milestone and there is much more coming, right?
- Speaker #0
Exactly. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Okay. So please tune in for the next episode. And thank you so much, Chris, from Rescope for your time today. It's been really enlightening. Thank you so much.
- Speaker #0
Thank you.
- Speaker #2
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Canales, your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes. And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.
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