Transcription

• Natalia

  I totally understand the fear, fear of not being liked or being trolled online or not getting business because you are leading with your values in your marketing. Like that's a very real fear, but you will also attract the values aligned people. And the impact for us as business owners, like, I don't know about you, but I just, I cannot, I cannot go back to working with. companies and people who were misaligned with my values. It really does a number on my mental health. So I guess it's one of those like choose your hard and I would rather choose this.

• Alisa

  Hello, Natalia. Welcome to the Regenerative Work Life podcast. I'm so, so happy to have you here today.

• Natalia

  Thanks for having me.

• Alisa

  So for listeners, Natalia works with humanity first brands to create anti-oppressive copy that is authentic, that does less harm, but that also sells. And I know for many people who are stepping into regenerative entrepreneurship, that that feels like an almost impossible paradox. There's this question of can I really market in a way that's going to feel good to me, that's aligned with my values, and that still delivers the concrete results that I need to sustain myself and my business. And that's why I'm really excited to have Natalia here, because I believe that you can bring those two things together. I know that you do, Natalia, and I'm really looking forward to discussing that today. Is there anything you want to add to that kind of more official intro there?

• Natalia

  No, that was perfect. I just want to point out that I love that you said does less harm. I originally had in my like branding language, do no harm. And someone on LinkedIn reached out to me and was basically challenging that concept of doing no harm, which really made me think about like that is not actually something I can promise, but doing less harm is something that we can definitely strive for. And I'm just happy that you said that.

• Alisa

  Yeah. And I love how it kind of positions it as a work in progress as well. We'd be challenging ourselves to do less and less, but we're going to make mistakes.

• Natalia

  Absolutely. Exactly.

• Alisa

  So I also wanted to share a little bit more of a kind of personal intro as to why I, this is actually the first time for people listening that, that Natalia and I have spoken, but Bye. saying before we came on like it feels like we know each other and I've felt so connected to you through our connection on LinkedIn and I came across you at a time when I was consciously rewilding my LinkedIn feed so what I mean by this is I was kind of getting rid of anything that just didn't feel good to me I didn't care who it was how important that connection had seemed to me in the past like anything that just energetically felt to me like oh you know another funding announcement or another planned like PR statement I just got rid of anything that like triggered comparison for me or anything like that like even if it was someone whose work I really appreciated it took me to that place I just got rid of it I started consciously seeking out people who were doing things differently like showing up and just being really real and authentic on LinkedIn and that is so it was during that period that I came across your content and it was like this gust of fresh mountain air in my LinkedIn feed. And you, your content just feels so alive, but also so unpolished. And you're explicit about your values. You're so upfront about that. And at the same time, like you were selling quite a lot, like quite a lot. And normally, like that would have probably been a turnoff for me. But I realized I I really like being sold to you. Even though at the time I wasn't like, I wasn't even sort of actively purchasing anything for it. So I was like, it was just, it was an enjoyable experience because, and I now kind of understanding more about your work realized because I didn't feel like there was any manipulation or expectation or obligation behind how you sell. So I wanted to share that with you. Yeah, my experience of connecting with you.

• Natalia

  I'm just sitting here receiving this and it's making me a little bit emotional because it just makes me so happy. I really love that you said unpolished. I really love that because I. work so hard not to let perfectionism get the best of me. And I am a recovering perfectionist, like all throughout my life, straight A student, like all of it and nothing, nobody could see my art until I was completely done. Like it was really hard to train myself to just be unpolished and be okay with that. And then it got to the point where I realized that like, oh, this is super liberating for me and it resonates with other humans because that humans are unpolished um so i really like to lean into that and i love that you noticed it um and obviously i love to hear that you liked being sold to because that is also something that you know that's kind of my whole thing like i try to um make it not only enjoyable for the person who is selling which includes myself but also for the people who are receiving our

• Alisa

  pitches essentially um and it's just really nice to hear that feedback yeah absolutely and i think you know go and take a look at natalia's profile on linkedin in the show notes because i think it's so important for people to see what's possible um you know like i said at the top that a lot of people that i work with just don't believe that this that that that can happen to them and the the part that they just dread more than anything, more than... leaving the perceived comfort of a corporate job more than any financial risk or going out. The part that they're just so uncomfortable and nervous about is marketing and selling. And it just, it can be done with joy.

• Natalia

  That is. I promise you absolutely can be. Yes.

• Alisa

  So maybe we should start by just rolling back a little bit before I get carried away and you could share with us how you came to this work of? anti-oppressive marketing.

• Natalia

  Okay. Yeah. So my first introduction to marketing was when I was, I decided to make a tutu for my four month old. It was my brother's wedding. I made a tutu. I got a lot of compliments on it. I ended up selling them online and realized that I need to learn how to market them. So that was my introduction to marketing. was selling my own tutus. I quickly realized that I actually loved the marketing more than the actual tutu making. So I retired the tutus and just leaned into marketing. I started working with brands, corporations, and agencies. And I kind of went back and forth between those three for a lot of my career. And I loved the creativity involved in marketing. I loved the psychology involved in marketing as far as like. understanding what resonates with humans, what motivates them to take an action, that kind of stuff. What I didn't like were all the manipulation tactics that were involved. We're familiar with all of them because we've experienced it. Marketing gets such a bad rep because we have been marketed to in a really sleazy way where we feel tricked, taken advantage of, exploited. Um, and as a marketer at that time, I remember thinking, um, I remember feeling shame around being a marketer. I didn't like telling people what I did for a living because of that. And I told myself I need to pay my bills. It was just me and my daughter at the time. Um, and this is temporary. I'm going to find my thing. It's going to be fully values aligned. And right now this is what I have to do. And this is just marketing. It's just business. And I'm just going to do it. Um, so I did it and I did the dance for a while. Um, I would attempt to raise my hand in the boardrooms and, you know, just share my perspective on like, can we maybe not do that? Um, but it was never, uh, entertained or even explored. Um, And I just kind of accepted that that's just how it is. 2020 rolls around and the whole world experienced a major shift. Part of that shift was Black Lives Matter. And that movement really opened the gates for me because that was when, for the first time, that brands noticed the impact of their marketing because they were being called out publicly on social a lot. There was, yeah, there were a lot of mentions on social from the public. naming brands and stocks were declining and shareholders were freaking out. So they were for the first time in my 10 year career, or it's been more than 10 years now, at the time they were like, oh, okay, we need to be careful. We need to be careful about what we say, how we say it, who we put in our images, all of it. Like they were very clear. that this is actually impacting their bottom line and they need to be careful. So, you know, it was on one side, it's kind of frustrating to know that they waited for something like that. And it isn't completely sincere. It was all about the bottom line. But I saw that opportunity and I run with it. And I was like raising my hand left, right and center and they were listening. So that was really great. And I got to team up with the DEI experts in those companies. And we would do workshops where it was an intersection of DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, and marketing. And that was when marketing started feeling so much better. That was like, okay, it actually can be different. And people are willing to entertain that. I, at the time, I was a freelancer. And I did not have, I had never marketed myself as one. I had a LinkedIn profile. I didn't, I don't even remember opening it, but it was there. And I checked it one day and I saw that I had a DM from someone who worked at a diamond company and they were looking for a copywriter. So by then I was already clear that like, okay, I do not ever want to go back to. oppressive marketing. And let me entertain the idea of not taking on any clients who refuse to try a different way. And I say try because there wasn't enough evidence that the anti-oppressive or humanity first marketing model actually works like for business as far as making money. And marketing is an experiment. And if they weren't willing to do that, then I wasn't willing to work with them. So I got this message and I was like, OK, obviously, red flag, diamond company, not the most ethical of industries out there. So I replied. And this was just practice for me to start positioning myself as a humanity first marketer. And I very politely declined and said, I only work with companies that are in line with my values. And I take a humanity first approach to marketing. I don't think we're a good fit. They responded quickly and said, oh, actually, I think we're a great fit because we pride ourselves in being an ethical diamond company. And that's all the information that was given. I was like, kind of curious about what that meant. I accepted a call and the call was meant it was essentially a sales call for me. But really, I was screening them to see if they were a good fit. It turned out to be a game changing call. I got on the Zoom call with this person and he from the get go, he started off by commenting on my looks, which I absolutely hated. He asked, we lived in the same city. He asked which neighborhood. And then he laughed at the neighborhood that I lived in and made fun of it and then showed, told me where he was living. It was the most expensive part of the province and showed me his penthouse, gave me a tour of his penthouse and his penthouse views. And the whole time I'm just sitting there, I'm obviously very triggered and I'm just thinking of what to say. And usually my nervous system responds. in a freeze state where I cannot speak. I find it hard to even physically move when I'm that triggered. So no words were coming out of my mouth. He didn't even notice. He was just going on about that. He talked about how he's given so much money to charities and has been awarded for his philanthropy. And that it's just, I can't even quote some of the things he said about Black people. and women. So he's going off. I am typing on my computer just like a spiel that I want to respond to it. And finally, when he's done, it's taken about 20 minutes for him to. to speak, I read my spiel and I basically tell him what I think about him in a very calm way. And I confidently say that I do not think we are a good fit. I may have called him some names. And he was very taken aback. The call ends. I had to take a minute. I mean, And I like broke down after that call and. I swore that I will never even consider, I don't want to attract clients who are so misaligned with my values. And the thing is with marketing is that like it is very, it plays a big role in businesses and growth. And I just don't want to be a part of that. So I was like, okay, I'm going to market myself. and I'm going to brand myself as the humanity first marketer. And it's going to be very clear from my LinkedIn profile that I am not for you. If you want to do those kind of icky marketing tactics, um, or even run a business that is not humanity first. Um, so that was my, that was my journey. That's how I started. And then like from the beginning of marketing to, um, my Humanity First branding today.

• Alisa

  people who are listening and not watching like I just feel like I need to describe my body language Natalia was sharing this story I have actually heard this story before but it's still just repulsive this time around um and yeah I mean I don't want to try to like put a you know positive kind of spin on it like I you should never have had to go through that kind of experience and sit through that 20 minutes. lecture um but it also kind of to me crystallizes why when like I said from the first moment that I saw any of your marketing it was so utterly clear what you stood for and what you wouldn't stand for and I think that is something that people are people who maybe don't have those kind of explicit lived experiences that have taken them to that point are really afraid of And I actually remember there's another element to the story of how I came across you is it was also the time that I was first writing about the genocide in Gaza. And at the time, I was the only person within my network and my little corner of LinkedIn to do so. And so I also remember the kind of courage that I felt by being digitally around people like you who were also speaking out about that and being really vocal about. what what really mattered to them and what's happening in the world and I guess I just want to yeah mark that I when when we do that we also like we say no to the people that we're not willing to work with to the kind of businesses that we're not working the kind of people we don't want to be but we also like we also make a huge invitation to the people who do who feel the same way who are waiting for somebody else to say something. And, you know, and I think that was exactly my experience when I came across you. I was like, I'm so grateful just to watch, watch from the sidelines and be a tiny part of your world and know that there are people like you out there. And I think I just want to offer that encouragement to others as well to, you know, when you, when you do speak up as boldly as you do, that it, it may feel like you're taking a risk of. rejecting people saying no to opportunities but really what you're doing is opening up to the people who you really want to work with and who really want to work with you yeah it's so powerful I totally understand the fear um you know fear of not

• Natalia

  being liked um or being trolled online or not getting business because you are leading with your values in your marketing like that's a very real fear. And You absolutely will lose business when you lead with your values, but you will also attract the values aligned people. And the impact for us as business owners, like, I don't know about you, but I just I cannot I cannot go back to working with companies and people who were misaligned with my values. It really does a number on my mental health. And so I guess it's one of those like choose your hard. and I would rather choose this. And as you were speaking and sharing that. I just realized something. People often talk about how LinkedIn is such a gross place, and I genuinely do not have that experience. And I think it's because I'm so upfront about my perspective and my values that I don't have anything in my feed that rubs me the wrong way. I've actually never been trolled, which I find. Shocking. And I'm kind of holding my breath because I am very, you know, some people would say I'm controversial. You know, unfortunately, like the genocide in Gaza is controversial. But I haven't received any hate. I think eventually I'm going to have to face that. But I also have so much support. Like just even energetically, because the people who are attracted to my profile are all like, we're all, I feel like we're all on the same team, you know? So there are so many benefits to that. Yes, there are risks, but I feel like the benefits really outweigh the risks.

• Alisa

  Yeah. A hundred percent.

• Natalia

  Yeah.

• Alisa

  I'm curious as you, after that point where that kind of tipping point where you made that kind of no going back decision and yeah you said the word controversial the word that comes up to me is clear i just feel like you were still clear um like was it easy for you was it kind of plain sailing because what i find even in my own um journey with marketing and sales um and you know a lot of the work i do is around like um decorporatization right and yet i've and i have never i've always spoke about i've never worked in a corporate environment. Corporate conditioning is like always there. It's always pulling me back. And I think corporate and colonial go very much. And, and it's, you know, and, and oppressive, like it, those habits just kind of pull you back and you find your, your writing content in a way going, but who's, who is this? Like who is saying this thinking that these techniques or tactics are actually going to. you know, are going to benefit or like, why do I get sucked into someone promises me a strategy that's going to work? And like, suddenly I throw out everything that I know is real, because I'm like, so desperate for that to work. And I find it's like a constant daily kind of detoxing and coming back to it. So I was just curious for you, like, you know, I guess from the outside, it looks like you made that decision and you like changed your copy and you put up your banner and suddenly it was out there but What was it like for you after you made that decision?

• Natalia

  It's also constant daily detoxing. I don't think that's ever going to end because I started that. How old was I? I don't know. I was in my 30s. That's like 30 years of conditioning. It's not going to go away overnight, if ever. It's the status quo, right? It's like all over us. We're seeing it's coming at us from all angles. um in all the media that we consume and even like the examples that we see, um, it's constantly, um, infiltrating our subconscious. And I find myself catching myself all the time, defaulting to those toxic ways of thinking. And, um, so yeah, that behind the scenes. is still very much happening. Right now, what I'm currently trying to detox is I'm a strategic person, but I would say more than strategic, I am like an artist first. I identify as an artist, even though I haven't sold any art, I still identify as an artist. I always have. And I feel like those two things are kind of on the opposite ends of the spectrum, like strategy is very structured. and artists are very free flowing. And, um, if I don't watch myself, I will get stuck in strategy mode unintentionally. And I think that that's, there's a part of strategy that can be very much out of fear. Um, so I am trying to balance those two constantly all the time. Um, one of the ways that I do that is the like. unpolished content thing. Like I'm a, I, I understand the copywriting rules and like the hooks and all that. Um, but I don't ever want it to make me into a machine. Um, and I don't ever want marketing to feel like, um, i'm trying to you know it's purely for hitting a goal a monetary goal marketing for me is so much more than that it's like a it's a platform for my self-expression it is a way for me to connect and find my people um of course it is a way for me to grow my business but i don't think we talk enough about like the opportunity in marketing for us to even just find ourselves in the practice of marketing ourselves.

• Alisa

  I love that so much. That's exactly how I feel about marketing. And I think when I mentioned before that a lot of people who are considering becoming an entrepreneur for the first time, and they're doing it through what I call a regenerative lens, that this fear around marketing and sales, I think is a really well founded fear because they don't want to become that person. They don't want to fall into that kind of manipulation. They you know, they can see enough about the conditioning to know they don't want to be part of that, but they don't have the experience of doing it differently. When they come down to the why of marketing, they're immediately at the well to get clients or to sell or, you know, to meet investors. So, you know, something very commercially driven. And I love the kind of examples that you just gave that I think we need to have much more like above the list before we get to the commercials. you know a vehicle for self-expression like what a beautiful way to think of marketing you know a place for like real and genuine connection I I also just love the concept of just kind of learning out loud like that that is part of marketing like I'm just committed to like learning publicly um and and also for me I and you know I just want to re-mention It's not that they're all the time. And I, you know, I have to kind of keep reminding myself and bring myself back to this. But when it's really working for me and my marketing just feels really playful and joyful, to me, it's a way of me falling more deeply in love with my work.

• Natalia

  Yes. I love that. That resonates. Same.

• Alisa

  You know, and I think you can like, I'm sure people can hear just the energy in. when we talk about this, it's so different to, I think, what a lot of people are anticipating when they think about marketing and sales. And I guess, yeah, that feels like the first step is find your why for doing this that isn't about the numbers. It's not about the data, it's not about the conversions, but I don't believe there are any humans in the world who feel energetically fired up by those things.

• Natalia

  Yeah. And I feel like, so for me, when it comes to numbers, I set goals. I very rarely look at my metrics. I feel like I can't even call myself a marketer if I don't do that. But very rare will I review my metrics. And if I do, it's always from a like curiosity thing like, hmm, oh, that one totally flopped. I wonder why. And then just like coming up with, um, hypothesis and testing it again, like the experimental mindset and the curiosity. And I think that numbers can offer us that an opportunity to find, um, play in our numbers as well, but it's really hard not to get attached to the numbers. Um, I think that it is, yeah, they can be helpful. Like knowing how much I just did an exercise the other day with some of my clients where we figured out like, OK, what is the number that you need to make? How many sales does that equate to? And then how many leads? So like working backwards from that, that is a very like, you know, strategic, structured, typical way of approaching marketing. And then... In that process, we also consider, do we have the capacity for that? Like energetically, do we have the capacity to be on like 10 sales calls a day? If that's what it's going to take to reach that goal. And if not, we got to change some things. Like either change the goal or remove something else or incorporate nervous system tools. You know, like I think that numbers can be helpful. but I think that the standard way of approaching numbers is not helpful. It can be really quite harmful to our nervous systems. And then when we look at the numbers, it's like, okay, I got to do whatever it takes to hit that number. And that's when marketing gets really exploited. And that really sucks. So it's like a complicated relationship. And really, it's leaving the space for us to be holistic in the process, you know? Yeah.

• Alisa

  Yeah. And I love that you brought up nervous system, actually, because that's something that I wanted to ask you because. very few people talk about looking after your nervous system in the context of marketing and sales. And I think it's so important. And I was wondering if there are any kind of particular tools that you use or that you share with your clients or kind of approaches that you have to yeah, recognizing how dysregulating marketing and sales can be for our nervous systems.

• Natalia

  That's a great question. I just want to start by saying I am not trained in this department. at all. I just am a very sensitive person. And I think that really helps me get in tune with other people so I can see when someone is not regulated and they're triggered. Mostly because I tend to, I have to be careful with that because I tend to take other people's energy on. So I can feel it is what I'm saying. I like to share what works for me and everybody has different things. And I think it's just helpful to even hear like what works for someone else. And maybe that starts their own exploration. But for me, it's different. Depends on like when you ask me right now, the tools that I'm leaning into are art. I am making space for art once a week, which is really fun.

• Alisa

  And remember correctly that you're doing Julia Cameron's. Yeah. I would say you're doing artist dates with yourself.

• Natalia

  Yes, I am. Here's the book.

• Alisa

  In the cabinet behind.

• Natalia

  Yeah. Yeah. I love it. It's so, it feels so nourishing. And it actually, maybe this metaphor will help for people. So I have frozen shoulder right now. I just found out like a couple of weeks ago. And, um, I went to physio and the physiotherapist was like, okay, you have to do these exercises. He gave me like, I don't know, maybe six exercises to do. Um, and when he was talking to me and explaining what it is, he mentioned the nervous system. He didn't go into it, but he's like, this is what happens because your nervous system, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then I go back and I find someone else. on Instagram who I have followed before. She's very scientific. People think about nervous system, they kind of think like woo-woo, but it's not. It's like actual biology. And she puts a lot of emphasis on the nervous system and physio. So I have been not very diligent about the exercises that he's given me, but I have been really focusing on the breath and calming my nervous system down. with a lot of long walks in nature and the art. And when I get stuck intellectualizing, which I tend to do a lot, I'm an overthinker. I will just dump all my thoughts. Morning pages is part of the artist's way practice. So that really helps. And today I was putting this jacket on and I could put it on with my throat. Like my shoulder allows me to put it on. I couldn't put it on before. It was like, I needed help putting my jacket on. um and today I could do it and I was like wow that is because of the nervous system work it's been frozen for a year and a half and it's so cool um

• Alisa

  I feel like I totally strayed from your original question it's magic this is I think this is the point like working working with the nervous system my coach training is very much rooted in working with the unconscious mind which is driving the nervous system so you know I think I'm I'm fully on board

• Natalia

  with you like it's incredible what can shift for us when we really pay attention and prioritize our nervous systems yeah i paying attention i think that that's like the first step and the most helpful thing you can do is just notice like so launching um i'm not sure if you do launches or if you have like a more of an evergreen always available offer like mini mini launches kind of

• Alisa

  quite a lot and then i have an evergreen underneath it i realized we started to use kind of like marketing languages people. It's not, it's not going to get dense. I promise.

• Natalia

  Yeah. I mean, so launches are basically an offer that like has an open and closed date for when you can buy. And then the evergreen is when people can buy it like year round all the time. Um, the reason I'm asking is because people who do launches get very dysregulated launch, have a very bad reputation because it tends to really throw people's nervous systems off. They may not even talk about it that way. but they just say, I hate launching. And it's because it is a very concentrated time when you are selling, like you're selling your butt off in a launch. And if you don't like selling, that's going to be extra hard for you. But for everyone, even if you like selling, I love, I love selling. I still need to be very on top of my nervous system regulation during a launch. So I noticed that when I'm launching, I tend to get obsessed with checking if I have a sales. I'm pretty sure everybody does this, but it's like refresh, refresh, refresh. Do I have a sale? It's the worst. I hate, I hate it when that happens. And I noticed this like the first time that I launched that I was like embarrassingly addicted to. refreshing my notifications because I wanted to see maybe I missed one maybe the like the notification forgot to pop up

• Alisa

  I've so been there like and it's just you know it's it's so cringe and you just don't want to and yet your finger just reaches a refresh button and you just can't help it and then the stories that you start telling yourself around it oh my gosh it's such a better place with it now but I It still happens. And I very much recognize that from the past.

• Natalia

  Yes. I would love to know if there's anyone listening that has never felt that because I've never come across a person who has been able to be totally calm, cool and collected during a launch without like doing the work. So if I'm coming into launch mode, I am very clear that that's a tendency. I need to take some space from my phone. So my phone is in another room when I'm working generally. But during a launch, I actually try to give it like to my partner or my daughter because it is very hard for me. I also make plans with people during a launch because when I'm making plans, I'm doing something else. I'm present with them. I'm not thinking about my launch and I'm not going to sit there in front of someone and like constantly check my phone. So I make... plans with people during a launch for that reason. And I get out of the house. So those are like a couple things I do to make sure there's like a lot of stuff. I go dial up the walks even more. Another thing that happens a lot with my clients is they will launch and the launch is not going the way they want it to. So they have set like goals. They want a certain number of sales. And usually the people I work with tend to set very low goals because they're already nervous. So they're like, I just want to sell three. And they're not even getting that number. And the launch is like they're mid-launch when this is happening. And now they're like towards the end. That's when if we're not getting the numbers that we want to hit, we get really sad. And like. lose confidence in ourselves. And then we just want to like abandon the launch. Um, I totally understand why those feelings happen. And I think it's really helpful for people to hear that like statistically the most number of sales happen on the last day at the 11th hour. And sometimes you still don't get it. You still don't hit those numbers. Um, and I, Bye. I think it's like we need to reframe that from like how embarrassing, what a failure, to like, okay, this is information. And it might be really annoying to hear that because it's like, you know, it might come across as like I'm just trying to paint a pretty picture here when it's actually really painful. No, I'm acknowledging that it is painful and I'm offering a reframe. You have information and the information that you could look into exploring is like. Like, was my messaging not resonating? Did I actually put myself out there? Like, did I put this offer out there enough? How many times did I do it? When I ask that question, people will be like, I only sent one. newsletter in a month and a half because I didn't want to like be overbearing. Um, so those kinds of things are like really helpful to see. And like, of course, like give yourself space to, to be sad about it. Um, and then, and then when you look at it, like say you got one sale and you were expecting 40 people to sign up. I always tell people the story of my yoga teacher training that I'd signed up for in 2018. These two yoga teachers who I absolutely adored, who are very popular, they were expecting, I think like 20 people. It was the first cohort or maybe second. Um, and there were only four signups and then one person dropped out after like the first day. So there were three of us and I, as the customer, I was like, yes, this is amazing. I get so much one-on-one attention. Um, and that is usually how people feel because it's like extra embarrassing from what I hear from people. It's extra embarrassing when it's a group program and like, there's not much of a group and I get it, but it's like, from their perspective, it is such a bonus. It is such a win. Um, they're just like super happy. So know that and like lean into it and then give them like the best experience ever. And then turn that into.

• Alisa

  an amazing case study and then that's going to make it a lot easier for you to solve next time around yeah oh there's so much good stuff in what you're sharing i feel like i could do a whole episode just dissecting all the things and then it resonates so much for me in my own experience and um i think also what i wanted to say is i just love i love how you kind of talk about this as like continual like experimentation and learning like if you're listening to the podcast for the first time like you may not know I ran a PR and marketing agency for nearly 15 years oh my gosh I didn't know that there you go see people don't always know this stuff right so like you might think I'd be like I know marketing like I know how to do this in that in that company like as the CEO one of my main responsibilities was selling like and I was selling. a lot that was a lot of what I did when I came into into coaching personal rewilding um however you describe what I do now it's it was completely different for me because it was just me there was no brand there was no team there were no structures it was just like it was like I was naked in front of people going hi would you would you like to spend money on me um it just felt It felt so different. I have had to really have the humility to take on board what you said about, like, I need that information that comes when I, you know, I put something out there and I doesn't get the response that I want. Or like early on when I was doing retreats and I found it so difficult to get people to to come to the retreat. And but it's it's all the time. It's like even now with the offers that I have that I put out that I feel I'm so joyful and playful around. but I still have to remind myself like every single time that I do even, you know, a silly little story or something on Instagram, like I'm learning about it and not in this clinical way of like, you know, I'm what's the rule book? How do I, you know, how am I supposed to do this? I'm learning. For example, I do all my best marketing out in nature. I sit down here in my office and do like marketing at the computer. It just does. I do so much of it when I'm walking. I'm literally writing the post as I'm walking. Most photos take me like two seconds and I'm like, oh, look, it's me in a tree. And like, that's what works because people feel that energy and they're kind of bought into my world and what I do. And so I just, I want to put out the encouragement there because I know how insurmountable this can feel and, you know, and feel all the feelings, but also like just find a way that you can start to do this. and start to learn and and see it as see it as a kind of lifelong learning journey because you know I ran an agency a very successful agency that I you know that I sold for 15 years and I absolutely did not know it all I had so much more to learn and I think it's just the same as like learning about being a human we learn more about being a human like this is this is one manifestation of being a human.

• Natalia

  Yeah, absolutely. I was actually just thinking about that exact point on my walk this morning that like. marketing is giving us that opportunity to learn about ourselves and like how who we want to be how do we want to show up I mean that's also like you know personal branding um but we can have fun we can have fun in our marketing I do ridiculous things

• Alisa

  I really want to like I really want to like finish on a note of fun so can you tell us like one of the most ridiculous things that you've done

• Natalia

  Okay. For me, the most ridiculous thing is rapping. I'm not a rapper. No, I will not do it on the podcast. Oh my gosh. I'm at my best level. But you will find it on my feed. And I have been, this is, I've been writing rap songs since I was a child and I started sharing them in my marketing. Uh, only because I thought I was hilarious. Like to me, I think that's just so funny that I'm rapping on a public platform when that is like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's just me being a goof and it just makes me so happy. So I just want to share it. It is almost always the topics are about either being a business owner or marketing and like, what? I haven't seen anyone rap about that. But I do it because I find it hilarious and funny. And usually when I'm launching, there's a wrap in part of my content somewhere. Because I show up with a lot of energy in my launches. But that is probably the most ridiculous thing that I do in my content is wrapping. And I'm just praying that no one will ask me to do that live or on a stage at some point. Because that is absolutely not a thing I can do.

• Alisa

  You know what? I always try to offer a little kind of play invitation to listeners when we go deep into a topic. And this is going to be my play invitation for today's episode. Like, find yourself something ridiculous to do with marketing. Like, doesn't, like, I mean, Natalia raps. And you can go and find this on the internet. I performed a poem that I had written in a black evening gown in a tree. Just in case listeners, you need a little ridiculous inspiration. You don't have to go huge with this. Just find something that feels fun and playful to you and see how the energy might shift.

• Natalia

  Yeah. And. I don't know about you. Maybe some people would feel extra vulnerable if they did something like that. But like I've done rapping. I've done dancing. I've put my paintings out there. And every time it is honestly primarily for me because I think it's just so funny. And so if I don't get like a lot of likes or comments, I don't even care. It's a win because I just put myself out there. and it just feels liberating to do that like just be myself um and it's okay if nobody if i didn't receive any sales or comments or whatever um it's really a self-expression channel so use it like that that's

• Alisa

  it um natalia i could talk to you so out i could um for people who are listening who i know will be inspired by what you're sharing where can they build a relationship with you is there an offer that you have live now that they might be interested thank you for asking um i am very active on linkedin i

• Natalia

  also have a newsletter are you able to share links with the awesome so i have those two And then I also have a subscription where I help people write content in there. Mostly, I mean, I share from my LinkedIn posts, but people use it to write Instagram posts and YouTube and newsletters as well. And the whole point is to like, just make it a little bit easier, be a little bit more human. I follow my own framework in there and it includes like building in public prompts, sales prompts. prompts to express yourself, which is really fun slash scary. Um, so yeah, that's $15 a month. So if you want some help with showing up, then maybe go check that out.

• Alisa

  Yeah, I'm going to second that. I have pointed clients in the direction of momentum. You know, if you're, if the concepts that we have shared resonate, but you feel like you just don't know where to start or you just wouldn't know what to say, like that is a great place to go and check out momentum. Thank you so much for this conversation today.

• Natalia

  It's been so fun.