Transcription

• Speaker #0

  You know, I've done the therapy, I've done the rituals, I've done the talking, the walking, the reflecting, the praying, the whatever, which is all about me. And so I'm going to feel empowered by not granting you forgiveness.

• Speaker #1

  Hello, my name is MC Lessard, and welcome to Stories of Forgiveness, the podcast where you don't have to forgive, but you can, and you can also be in the process of forgiving or have made the decision not to forgive. It's all okay. There's no judgment here. This space is a safe space. It is because I want to hear all of your stories. In every episode, I have guests who have the courage and the generosity to share their path along the forgiveness journey. And every story has its own gem. So you listen to one and you'll want to listen to the others. And this one is no different. So stay tuned. Well, hold on to your britches, my friends, because in this episode, my special friend Julie Keon joins me to hash it out on my favorite topic. I can't say that she's my guest because at some point she becomes the impromptu co-host and a good one at that and asks me really hard questions. And if you can't tell, I get triggered. Yes, I get triggered. And as uncomfortable as it is, I love getting triggered because it always sparks new awareness in me. But enough about me. This is about you. And if you've ever felt guilty for not forgiving, well, this episode might help you move through this emotion to a place where you feel more empowered, a greater sense of agency, because this is the essence of Julie's message. And make sure to keep listening after Julie signs off too, because I will be asking you a few coaching questions to help you. take whatever you got from this episode and transfer it to your own life. So hang in there and see you real soon. Hello, Julie.

• Speaker #0

  Good morning. How are you?

• Speaker #1

  I'm doing great. Thank you so much for accepting my invitation. I know that with you, things are never shallow. We're going to be getting into some really juicy, juicy conversation today. Where would you like to start us?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I think I want to start with a really bold statement.

• Speaker #1

  Go for it.

• Speaker #0

  I think that forgiveness is not mandatory for healing. contrary to 99% of everything that you could ever read about forgiveness, including a very popular book called Radical Forgiveness. Yes. I come from maybe see it through a different lens, and I'm hoping maybe this will resonate with some of your listeners that. In some circumstances, I think we can process, we can recover, we can heal, we can live beautiful, full lives, empowered, not bogged down by resentment and grudges and anger, and not forgive someone who has done us wrong.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, that is a bold statement. I want you to tell me more about that.

• Speaker #0

  Well, I work with people who have experienced traumatic loss. So I'm a grief and bereavement counsellor. But most people I see have had some sort of traumatic aspect to the death that they're grieving. And sometimes they're burdened by this need or this obstacle that they have to forgive someone for what has happened. And I also have experienced trauma. And so I think that there are potentially harmful effects in having someone who's experienced trauma, who's been abused by somebody, who intentionally caused harm to you or to somebody you care about, to someone vulnerable. There's harmful effects in focusing on the forgiveness part.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, I see what you mean, because we're putting obligation or duty to forgive when the person is still suffering from the trauma. Is that what you're saying?

• Speaker #0

  No, I also mean when people have actually processed the trauma.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, okay. So regardless of where they're at, okay.

• Speaker #0

  Because I think there's this thing that if you're choosing not to forgive, you just haven't healed enough. You haven't done all the work yet. You haven't processed all the feelings. You're still sitting in anger. and so it's actually insulting to me to have for someone to say well once you know once you're further along once you get to a place where you've processed all your emotions then you will be able to forgive but not necessarily. And I think in our culture, we live in this culture that positivity and we have to get over things and we have to, you know, only grieve a certain amount of time, all of these things, you know, we have to be happy, we have to work towards happiness. These are all lovely. However, for a lot of people, that's just not the reality. So I think it's okay for us to not be all those things, you know, that there is empowerment in them. not forgiving.

• Speaker #1

  There is impairment in not forgiving.

• Speaker #0

  I know I'm taking us on a whole other route.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. And that's perfect because that's exactly the raison d'etre of this podcast is to bring all perspectives. I'm really happy that you have the courage to speak this very bold affirmation of, yeah, we don't have to forgive and we can still be at peace and have healed. and that will resonate with some folks, and that will trigger others.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, good. That's why we have these conversations.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. So have you always thought this? Have you always believed this?

• Speaker #0

  I will be honest, I've always struggled with the concept of forgiveness, because, you know, the concept of forgiveness being that not about saying what happened is okay. It's not about saying you're going to forget what happened. It's more about you. And so, I still struggle with that, especially when there's an abuser, for example, because by forgiving, we're giving some of our power away again to an abuser. People who have survived trauma, they need to have that sense of agency. They need to have a sense of some sort of control. If they really don't feel it in their heart, if what has been done to them or someone they love is completely unforgivable, then... forgiveness can diminish the survivor's sense of their own ability to control things. And that's what was lost when they were abused or assaulted or whatever it might be.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  There is also the part of, let's say, the person that you are struggling with forgiving. If they're not remorseful for what they did, then I feel that forgiving them can be another form of victimizing. The thing is, some things are unforgivable. and you don't have to look too far. You just have to go look at news and see the things that happen to people. And I think there's things that are done by accident, you know, whatever, somebody, somebody who's driving, they decide to switch the radio, they cross the line, they hit another vehicle, somebody dies.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  That is something that I believe can lead to forgiveness because it wasn't intentional. They weren't. They weren't acting in a way that was cruel or violent. And so when somebody has genuinely made an error, when they have done something for whatever reason, the person who has the power to forgive has to determine whether or not those actions are forgivable.

• Speaker #1

  Mm hmm. And I'm sure that you've read stories about what you might deem to be unforgivable, yet people have forgiven.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Everything I say today is my own opinion. Yes. From my own personal experience and from my professional experience. But certainly, I mean, certainly, there are things that are unforgivable. People, people forgive murderers, people, I mean, people forgive all kinds of, you know, horrible acts. And I guess my position today is that it's also okay to not forgive. It doesn't make you a person who's not evolved. or not spiritual enough, or any of those things. That you can process emotions and you can set people free without actually forgiving them. Maybe that's the same thing, setting somebody free or forgiving them. Maybe that is what forgiveness is for some people. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Could it be, Julie, that, you know, it's the grammar, the words, because we know how limiting words can be. Because especially when we've grown up with a Judeo-Christian background, as you and I have, there's just so many subtle connotations of that F word. And so maybe that's what's kind of triggering. It's triggering, but it is also informing you or helping you to form a different vocabulary that sits better with you. And yours is, I can still set him free.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And be at peace.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yeah, except.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Except setting somebody free as far as. You know, you as a person over here and what you did does not impact me anymore because I've done all the work. You know, I've done the therapy, I've done the rituals, I've done the talking, the walking, the reflecting, the praying, the whatever, which is all about me. And so I'm going to feel empowered by not granting you forgiveness. And I can do that. I can do that without holding a grudge. I can do that not because I'm angry. But because this is that sense of agency, this is that sense of control. You don't get my forgiveness. You don't get my forgiveness.

• Speaker #1

  So do you see this as a form of retaliation or vengeance?

• Speaker #0

  No, I see it as an act of rebellion in a society that is so focused on us doing something that maybe is not appropriate for a lot of people. I think we have to give people permission. You know, it's like. It's like people who are grieving are told you have to, you can, you know, you only can grieve to about this point and then there's something wrong and you need help. This is why I have a job because of our society's really mixed up ideas about grief.

• Speaker #1

  And you speak from the trenches. I mean, you see it every week.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. Yeah. Every day. So having this conversation, I think maybe would just give some people who are feeling isolated in that sense of not. wanting, not willing to forgive, and still being able to move forward with their lives with a sense of power and healing. That's that's kind of a gift, I think.

• Speaker #1

  It is.

• Speaker #0

  That's my act of rebellion is that we can live full, whole, healed lives, and not but, and we can do so without forgiving somebody who did something that is unforgivable.

• Speaker #1

  So the sense of choice.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  The power of choice liberates you.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. Yeah. And, you know, when something happens to us that is unforgivable, somebody does something to us or to somebody we love, especially our vulnerable children or elderly adults or, you know, anyone who is unable to defend themselves. That's a good example. Maybe forgiveness comes to forgiving ourselves, you know, that sense of self-compassion in forgiving ourselves and absolving ourselves of guilt and the wonderings of what could we have done to have prevented this from happening? I mean, most people who've gone through some sort of event or especially a loss, you know, I always say guilt is the close first cousin of grief because nobody comes into my office and sits down and just has grief. I always say now make space on the couch for some guilt because there's always guilt. And so a lot of the work that comes with working through a traumatic death, for example, or any kind of a trauma is forgiveness of what we could have done differently to have prevented this from happening. So if somebody you love is vulnerable and somebody you trusted has assaulted, abused, done something to that person, and you were the one that was expected to protect them, then... I think there's a lot to be said for forgiveness of ourselves.

• Speaker #1

  And so in that act of rebellion that you were describing earlier, and now transferring that to the forgiveness of self, how does that play out?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I think forgiveness is just granting yourself grace for, you know, not having maybe not having the knowledge that you wish you had at the time. If you knew then what you know now, you would have done it. And that's different. That's different than the forgiveness of or lack of forgiveness of somebody who does something cruel and intentional.

• Speaker #1

  But perhaps there's something that they don't know either.

• Speaker #0

  What do you mean? Give me an example.

• Speaker #1

  Well, you know what? Years ago, Julie, I created a short. trailer called Compassion for Criminals. This man sitting in court being sentenced, he was a serial killer and raped women and I mean, the horror story. And so at the sentencing, there were many family members and the judge gave a chance to the family members to speak out their rage and their... anger and their sadness and their grief. And I mean, it was just very, very harsh to watch. And then this man gets up and he pretty much looks like Santa Claus. He's very calm and he has this big, low baritone voice. And he alluded to something about Jesus. And it was almost as if he was saying, I'm not the one forgiving you, but I think forgiveness is what... needs to be done here. And until then, the serial killer was stoic. As long as the family of the victims were just coming down on him, he was just so stoic and cold. And as soon as this man stepped up, and he really was beaming like a light in his words and his energy, and he said, I forgive you, or we forgive you, or he forgives you, the murderer started to cry.

• Speaker #0

  Mm-hmm.

• Speaker #1

  he broke down. So 30 years ago, I was one who was for the death sentence. And when I saw that, I was perplexed. I was curious. And it got me wondering, what is happening there? Did all these horrific things happen so that other beings can find their way back to the light through compassion, through forgiveness? And I don't have the answer, but that really stayed with me.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, it's the whole concept of restorative justice, right?

• Speaker #1

  It is.

• Speaker #0

  Here's my thing with that.

• Speaker #1

  Go.

• Speaker #0

  So let's say, hypothetically speaking, your child is in the care of a babysitter, somebody. This person has a history of abuse, maybe. they're struggling financially to make ends meet. They're working three other jobs. They're exhausted. They've gone through a divorce. They're trying to raise their children. But they also have a little daycare, let's say, or they come into your home to look after your child, whatever. So this is where I struggle. I can forgive. I can honor someone. Let's say one day, they're exhausted, and they've just, they've reached their limits. But now they've got all these kids in their home that they're caring for, and they lose their cool. And they maybe grab the kid by the arm, you know, your kid by the arm, and they give them a jerk, which they're not supposed to do. They're never supposed to lay their hands on your child like that. Right? Of course. So there's two scenarios. One, they don't feel bad about it. They don't care. Or they're just like, oh, this kid and they're blaming the kid. And then the next day, the kid comes in, and it just continues and it escalates. And now, now they're starting to give the child a swat on the bum, or they're starting to shake them. They're getting they're just getting more and more angry because they're not they're they're just overwhelmed. They're overwhelmed. Or that very first time they did that, they say to the parent and all the parents that the kids are looking after, I did not care. for your child in a way that I, to reach my high standards that I have for this privilege of caring for your kids. And I lost my cool with your child. And I want to tell you that because I do not trust myself right now because I've got a lot going on. And I feel like, I feel like it is in the best interest of your children and of myself. It's my responsibility to not. be doing anything. I need to, I need to step back. That to me is somebody has made a mistake. They've crossed a line. Maybe they've, you know, they have done something rough with your child and they have recognized that it's wrong. And now they're, they're taking responsibility and they have the courage to come to you to say that. That is, to me, is forgivable. That is somebody who is human, who's lost their cool. And they realize it and they've come to you to tell you that. The second scenario, though, to me, is not forgivable. Because in the end, hurt people do hurt people. Hurt people also have choice. And we always have choice. And so the minute we're hurting people, we have the choice to... get help, get out of the relationship. And I know you can say, well, that's really lovely, Julie, and privileged of you to think that all people have the capacity to make those choices. However, in a lot of circumstances, people do not take responsibility for their actions because not everyone who is hurt hurts people. There are people who grow up in horrendous, horrendous circumstances. they go on and they fight and they work and they go to school and they get educated and do all the things they take responsibility for that. Again, I have difficulty with, with that piece. I know her people, trust me, I have gone through this with circumstances where somebody has harmed somebody I care about or whatever. And I, I will think, and I'll like, well, you know, maybe this and maybe that. And in the end, I still say, but you didn't stop when it started. You didn't take responsibility. It was intentional. You had choices. You didn't make the choices. You do not get my forgiveness.

• Speaker #1

  responsibility is a word that comes back up in most of these conversations that I have with my guests. And I'm wondering, what do you think dictates our ability to take responsibility?

• Speaker #0

  Courage. I mean, it's easier to not take responsibility. It's easier to be a victim of circumstance people will do something and they'll blame everything they'll blame the weather they'll blame their grade four teacher you know they'll blame everything except for taking responsibility for themselves and saying i was wrong I'm or I was wrong, I made a mistake or whatever it might be.

• Speaker #1

  So, you know, we're 8 billion of us on the planet, our capacity for responsibility, obviously differs, because we see it every day, some who can take more responsibility and some who have the capacity for less. So, how do we handle this?

• Speaker #0

  Good question.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, right?

• Speaker #0

  And if it isn't obvious, I see things often very black and white, both a blessing and a curse. I have a hard time seeing gray areas when it comes to intentional acts of assault, abuse, harm. especially to vulnerable people, especially to vulnerable defenseless people. Because a lot of things are forgivable. I can see myself forgiving circumstances where somebody is very seriously, mentally ill, you know, very seriously mentally ill, they commit a murder, I can see myself coming to a place of forgiveness because of those circumstances, when the reasoning is just because I can, because I can get away with it. because I have my own issues going on in my life, and I'm taking it out on a vulnerable person or an animal, somebody who I feel is beneath me who can't stand up to me. Those are things I find extremely unforgivable.

• Speaker #1

  Let's say such a person would then get a diagnostic of mental illness. Would that then change your perception of them?

• Speaker #0

  I hope everyone heard that very dramatic sigh.

• Speaker #1

  And I will not edit it out.

• Speaker #0

  well yeah i think so i think that could impact yeah i'll be i'll be honest but i'm talking like i'm talking serious mental illness i'm not i'm not talking about well they were suffering from anxiety because of the pandemic and that kind of thing that's not what i'm talking about i'm talking about somebody who has like a psychotic break okay and

• Speaker #1

  commits an act of violence you know so there are certain criteria or reference points for you which will lead you to come to either this is forgivable, this is not forgivable, and this is how I want to process this.

• Speaker #0

  And I may, you know, in 25 years from now, I might reflect back on this conversation and go, I was so naive. I was so not evolved. But I don't think so. I really don't think so. I think I've thought this way for a very, very, very long time. And I do have the capacity to forgive. It's not that I'm, you know, you're not allowed to do any wrong with me or that's it. I cut you loose and we're done. I do have the capacity to forgive. And I also, I guess my point is that I want to say out loud that it's okay to also go through all the things, all the steps and come to the conclusion that, you know what, this is not forgivable. It's not forgivable. And that is more powerful and empowering for me than granting someone forgiveness. Because if they say forgiveness is about us, you know, it's really about us, then not forgiving is also really about us. Because if we're forced to forgive, or we feel we have to forgive in order to heal or to move forward, then that hurts ourselves. Mm hmm.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Agency is really resonant throughout this conversation, right? And that's, it's not entitlement. It's not privilege. It's agency.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. The choice to not forgive isn't about causing harm to the person who did the wrongdoing. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like, oh, I know you would feel better if I forgave you, but too bad, you do not get my forgiveness. It's not about them. It's not about them at all. It's about the person who chooses to forgive or not to forgive. I want to make that clear that I think there's a sense that if you choose not to forgive, you're either... not healed or you're stuck in anger or you are holding a grudge or you're doing it to harm that person in some way by not forgiving them um and i don't think that's i don't think that's true i don't think that's the case

• Speaker #1

  but would you say though, Julie, that even though you might not be holding on to those low vibrational emotions, what you are saying though, is I am right. And you were wrong.

• Speaker #0

  I don't know if it has anything to do with right or wrong. Like, I don't think it's a matter of like you did wrong and I'm right in not forgiving you. I don't, I like to think that has really very little to do with that person. Okay. It has to do with me. Is that selfish? Maybe, maybe. I mean,

• Speaker #1

  yeah, go ahead. That word selfish. I like to use self-focused instead, you know, I mean, or self-sustaining. Would that even be?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that goes back to that trauma piece, right? The people who have been traumatized need to have a sense of agency. And when we force people to forgive, because if you don't, you're not overly evolved or you're selfish or you're hanging on to a grudge or you're, you know, you're in the victim mentality or whatever, it's actually empowering to make it about themselves. that power was taken away. So to give people the choice to forgive, how freeing if you've done all the hard work of healing and recovering from a trauma, and then you're feeling this pressure that you should forgive the perpetrator. And that word should is just laden with blame and shame and guilt and all the things. that in order to really find true peace, to really be on that high vibration, you have to forgive the person who harmed you. How freeing it would be to have a therapist or somebody say, or not, or not. You have done all the hard work. And you have worked through all those feelings that sit under anger because anger is usually not anger. Anger is usually like the tip of the iceberg and underneath it is all the really hard, vulnerable emotions, right?

• Speaker #1

  Yes.

• Speaker #0

  And so I think we think that if we don't forgive, we're sitting in that place of anger. And it's like, I'm not forgiving you. You do not deserve my forgiveness. What you did was horrible. You will never get my forgiveness. That's anger. I think that when you do all the work and you get, you know, go through all the... how this made you so vulnerable and the fear and the sorrow and the shattering of assumptions of how the world works and your sense of safety and all those things. And you come to the other side of that and you're like, no, I'm not forgiving you. That's my power card. That's my power. You can say is like a, you know, power is really egotistical or whatever, but it's more that I'm going to make a choice where I had no choice, but I'm going to choose and not forgive you. I'm not going to forgive you. and I'm not going to give it another thought. That's the thing. That's the key. I can move forward from this, and I've done all the work, and I forgive myself. I did all the work, and I'm just not going to think of you. I'm not going to give you one more thought, one more moment of my time or my energy. And you're right. Maybe it is all about words, right? Maybe by doing that, it's still a form of forgiveness without using the term forgiveness.

• Speaker #1

  Maybe. And let that be important.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I think it's respecting our personal boundaries. I have very strong boundaries. So I don't know if that comes across at all. But you know, I think by not forgiving, and being at peace with that in a really deep, beautiful, spiritual way, not just in a surfacy, like anger way, but in a, in a in an empowered way that I'm respecting my boundaries.

• Speaker #1

  And that's healthy for you.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's healthy for me.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, you were saying earlier that you feel at peace with your decision and that you're able to set others free without forgiving them. I'm just wondering, how do you know?

• Speaker #0

  I think because there's no feeling around them, good or bad. There's not anger or sadness or regret or anything like that. It's just, it's neutral or not even neutral. It's non-existent. They're just not in, they're just not in my fear or in my reality. Okay. You know, non-existent. yeah, I don't think about them. If they happen to come into my mind, or I think, oh, it's been this long since that happened, or since I last saw that person, there's no emotion attached whatsoever. And that's how I know I've let it go. It's just not part of me anymore.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, that's your litmus test.

• Speaker #0

  That's my litmus test.

• Speaker #1

  This is a very enlightening conversation. And I thank you so much. is there anything else that you want to add to what we've shared already?

• Speaker #0

  I'm curious how your mind is now from the beginning to now. Do you feel a sense that this has not evolved? Do you know what I mean?

• Speaker #1

  I do know what you mean.

• Speaker #0

  I'm going to give you a politician's answer.

• Speaker #1

  My favorite.

• Speaker #0

  No, no, I'm not going to do that.

• Speaker #1

  You can do whatever you want. It's your podcast. I shouldn't be asking you the question.

• Speaker #0

  it's funny because I operate very consciously from my two selves, you know, my, what I call my smaller self and my higher self. And right now they're not integrating. So what I mean by that, to answer your question more directly, is my human self says, damn right. Right? We have agency, we have choice. and whatever you choose is right and healthy for you, great, I'm with you. Then there's the higher self and the one that I actually have felt in my body and my heart. where personally, when I have had the experience of betrayal, I have felt loving, kind, and I have only felt well in my body when I actually have forgiven the other to the point that I am even able to be compassionate towards them. When I reach the level of compassion for the other, my higher self has been involved clearly. And when I'm in that space, I know that my body relaxes in a way that it does not when I'm on my human position. I don't know. Does that answer your question?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So I guess, you know, really to bottom line it is that my higher self would probably say, it feels good to forgive. But, and we don't know. Julie, you are making me realize something right now. I did not know for the longest time that I was an anxious person. And I covered up my anxiety with optimism. Yeah. When people told me that your positivity is toxic. I've had people tell me that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, talk to positivity. It's a thing.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it is. And that was just, it was really insulting to me to use your word earlier. It was insulting to me that people would say that, whereas I thought I was just beaming. positivity and, you know, putting good energy in the world. But what I was really doing was covering up some hurt and covering up anxious energy that came from the hurt that I had experienced as a younger person. But my subconscious mind had all that hidden. And my conscious mind decided that the strategy of being optimistic was the one that was going to get me further in life. And so I used that until it didn't work because as everybody knows, my son, and you know, because you've been the life celebrant of my dear Fred, and that was a beautiful ceremony. Thanks again.

• Speaker #1

  It was.

• Speaker #0

  And so until I was with Fred and my optimism was violent to him. I had to peel that back. Before Fred happened, nobody could tell me, MC, stop being optimistic. It's not good for you. Well, no, that's my strategy. That's how I operate in the world. What do you mean? It's not just my strategy. At that time, I thought it was me. I defined myself that way. the experience that I had of being with Fred, nine years, depression, ending up with him taking his life, it just opened up a new world of emotional experiences to lower lows and higher highs than I had ever had before. And it was through this emotional journey that I realized that I had been anxious and sad for a lot of my life. So if we transfer that to your experience, if your choice right now to not forgive and being at peace with that choice right now, it's like my optimism. That's where you are. Will that at some point be totally blown out of the water and some other emotions and some other perspectives will surface? If they do, great. If they don't, great.

• Speaker #1

  If they do, I'll let you know.

• Speaker #0

  right? It's just where you are. So it's really meeting yourself where you are, me meeting you where you are as well, and not imposing any of my values, any of my beliefs on you.

• Speaker #1

  So just correct me if I'm wrong, because what I heard you say, in a way is that your perception is that the way I'm operating right now, is covering something else, like your optimism was covering anxiety. So you are perhaps assuming that my strong beliefs around forgiveness is like an armor around something else. Is that accurate?

• Speaker #0

  I didn't say it like that, but I guess that's what it is. But not in a way, and I don't know if it is.

• Speaker #1

  I don't think it is. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  But what I do know for sure is one thing. We are beings of evolution, and our evolution always goes to love and light. that I do know for sure. That's a truth. And so that's why I think when I go back to that story about that serial murderer and that gracious man came in and spoke the word, the F word and saying, we forgive you. And then that man breaks down. Let's say that the soul of that murderer came in this incarnation to hurt others. well, in that moment of forgiveness, was he healed? And if for those of us who believe in reincarnation, will that have made his soul evolve positively or more than those other family members who had full right and justification to just come at him, but who kept him stoic and kept him just even totally blocked? from any love and from any light, because that's not what was coming at him. But in the moment that that's what was presented to him, there was a little crack in his heart that was open or that his soul, and then... I don't know.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we might need to have another conversation. Because what I what my mind goes to when we talk about toxic positivity, something else that that comes up working with dying people, grieving people, is what's called spiritual bypassing. When we don't tend to our humanness, because we're just like, yeah, but God will look after it. And God does this and their soul and all those things. We throw all those words around. And it's bypassing the real human stuff that we have to tend to. And so I'm always aware of that as well. I think of the serial killer and, you know, I can, part of me can say, oh, that's really beautiful and lovely. And then my mind automatically goes to all of the people that he murdered and how their souls had to deal with the shock and the trauma and probably hundreds of people that were impacted by his actions. I actually don't feel compassion for him. So.

• Speaker #0

  And that's okay?

• Speaker #1

  That's okay. And that does not mean that I'm unevolved. That may just be my truth. And I'm okay with that. I can live with that. I'm okay with that. That might be very harsh and stingy for people to hear that. Yeah, that's just where I sit.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly.

• Speaker #1

  and I hope it doesn't shatter your image of me, MC.

• Speaker #0

  Oh my God, no.

• Speaker #1

  That's why I'm all about the victims. I am all about the victims. I'm all about the victims. I am about the people who are harmed and the person who does the harming for the most part makes a choice.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, and you know what? Whatever perception I have of you is none of your business. in a sense, right?

• Speaker #1

  It isn't. It isn't any of my business.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, in the sense that you should not care about what my perception of you is, because that would be only my biases anyways.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah. No, and I truly, I truly, I'm all about that. You know, when people say so and so, I always say it's none of my business what people think of me. I really, it's not my concern.

• Speaker #0

  No, exactly.

• Speaker #1

  When I think of myself, can I live with myself? Can I look in the mirror? Can I? Can I go on caring for people in the capacity that I do and, you know, be okay with my strong views about forgiveness and things like that? Absolutely. I'm okay where I sit. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. Now, if anything, Julie, what I see today is a woman who has the courage of her convictions.

• Speaker #1

  Convictions that were just came into my mind before you said it. Yes. There we go. There you go. I was ending with that. Convictions. Yeah. Courage of convictions.

• Speaker #0

  Courage of convictions. That's our takeaway.

• Speaker #1

  That's the takeaway.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you so much, Julie, for this precious moment.

• Speaker #1

  You're welcome. You're welcome. It'll be interesting to see the feedback.

• Speaker #0

  It will be. Absolutely. See you around.

• Speaker #1

  Take care.

• Speaker #2

  Ooh, la, la, la. I'm not a clairvoyant or a clairsentient or a clair-anything for that matter. But I'm pretty sure you were stirred by Julie one way or another. And as you heard, I was triggered by her frank stance. and could not on the spot even make up my own mind about where I stood relative to her point of view. We recorded this episode weeks ago, and I'm honestly still processing it. So if you need a hand processing it too, here are a couple of coaching questions. What did Julie say that shocked you? What did she say that resonated? Hmm, here's a good one. If you had to create a bumper sticker out of what you got from this episode, what would it say? And maybe one more question. How is what you heard here today going to change the way that you do forgiveness? I generally don't dish out any advice, but I do encourage you to use Julie's two questions to assess whether your way of doing forgiveness reflects who you are today. And of course, the only person whose opinion you should value is your own. So those questions are, can I live with myself and can I look at myself in the mirror? And if the answer is yes, well, you don't have to give a hoot about what anybody else thinks. And in case. You are curious to explore a little bit more about Julie and what she does. She has a business called Ready or Not and of Life Services. And I will put the link in the description notes so you can look her up and read up about the really interesting and important work that she does. And I really want to thank you for listening in today. I hope that you got tons of value and that you will like this episode. Give us a thumbs up. or give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, maybe even a comment on YouTube, anything. Thanks again. Have a great day, my friends. See you in the next one.