Redefining Societal Success I Julia Kim, Club of Rome | S5E4 | Inner Green Deal - the human dimension of sustainability.

Description

How should we measure progress - by what we produce and consume, or by how people and nature are doing? Dr. Julia Kim, a physician and systems thinker, discusses Bhutan’s Gross National Happiness (GNH) as an alternative to GDP, and shows how inner development - including her contemplative and spiritual practice - provides the human foundations for translating that vision into policy, institutions, and everyday life.

Julia Kim began her career in clinical medicine before moving into health policy and international development with the UN and other agencies. She later served as Program Director at the Gross National Happiness Centre, Bhutan, and is a member of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance and an Executive Committee Member of the Club of Rome.

In this conversation:

Julia’s path from medicine to systems work—and how contemplative practice and spirituality inform her leadership
What Gross National Happiness measures and how it reframes policy choices
Practical ways NGOs can create low-barrier spaces for reflection and values-aligned action
Real-world effects of GNH (e.g. community norms around forest conservation) and the tensions of a GDP-centric world

How other Wellbeing Economy approaches are taking shape in the world

Resources:

Season 5 leads into the IDG Summit 2025 in Stockholm, where the Inner Green Deal curates a full-day track. Use code “MeSummit2025” for 15% off in-person and 50% off digital tickets. With thanks to the Robert Ho Family Foundation for their support.

Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit  innergreendeal.com or write to info@innergreendeal.com.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
I think we're living in such an interesting time. And when we move into the sense of certainty, whether it's certainty about I have the solution or certainty about, oh, it's all going to go terribly wrong, that cuts off possibilities. And it also really sucks out our energy. I think it's a really important time to be curious. What's next for us as human beings?
Speaker #1
Welcome back to the Inner Green Deal podcast with me, Tamsin Walker, and to another episode exploring the role of inner development in the work of NGOs and other impact organizations. Many people might be facing current uncertainties, be that in the form of political or financial tensions that stir a drive to push harder and do more. But as we've been hearing over the course of the past episodes, it can also be a moment to invest in inner development. as a way of staying grounded and building the trust and collaboration needed for deeper systemic change. Last month, I spoke to Helmi Aboulaesh of Sekem, an initiative that supports tens of thousands of people while greening parts of the Egyptian desert and has inner development at its core. This time, I'm speaking to Julia Kim about challenging the idea of economic growth as the single metric of success. and about how moving towards a well-being economy requires both new policies and new mindsets, and the role of inner development in helping NGOs and funders to lead that shift. Julia is an expert in global well-being and well-being economies, with a focus on understanding the connection between inner transformation and systems change. After starting out as a medical doctor, she moved into health policy and international development. where she realized the importance of being able to shift mindsets, values, and beliefs. She has since worked for the UN and other agencies, and in recent years has been the program director of the Gross National Happiness Center in Bhutan. She's also a member of the Well-Being Economy Alliance and an executive committee member of the Club of Rome. Welcome, Julia. It's a pleasure to have this time to talk with you.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Tansin. Happy to be here.
Speaker #1
In keeping with the title of the podcast, I'd like to start with a question that everybody is being asked in this season, which is how would you define inner development?
Speaker #0
So I would say inner development is something that is kind of happening all the time, whether we know it or not. And on one level, it's kind of a personal individual thing. And on another level, it's collective, it's societal. So From a personal point of view, we're constantly changing. We have an inner life. And these days, that inner life is often being developed or manipulated or pushed in different directions through all these outside influences, whether that's social media or advertising or just watching the news. But that is influencing our attitudes, our values, our inner life. And we can also be cultivating that. So rather than just going with the flow of whatever the current tide is, I think we can also cultivate our inner development. And there's many, many traditions and wisdom lineages that have been doing that for a long time. And then collectively, we're transforming as human beings. Our culture, our values, what we believe in, our societies is constantly moving and changing. So again, the same question comes up. Is that something we just leave to chance and to world events and to the largest voices? Or is that something that we want to maybe shepherd and steer and promote towards the highest good? So those are the aspects of inner development that come to mind for me.
Speaker #1
Okay, well, thank you. That gets us off to a very good start. And I'm sure that both of those are things that we're going to be looking at a little bit more deeply in this conversation. I mentioned in the introduction... that you began your working life as a medical doctor. But since then, your career has taken a different direction or different directions. Can you explain the role that inner development has played in this journey that you have been on and I imagine are still on?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that my work has been constantly moving upstream, starting from being a physician and looking at individual health and physical and mental well-being. Just to going up to public health and international health and further, and always driven by this, I would say, this sense of dissonance when the previous mental models or ways of working no longer seemed to be. Serving or satisfying. And also a sense of curiosity, just kind of asking, well, why are things like that? Why do people get sick? Why certain people and not others? How do social conditions lead to that? And that brought me to rural Africa to work as an HIV AIDS doctor and working on domestic violence and gender inequalities. And eventually up to health policy and international health at the United Nations in New York. But I think, to be honest, the other part of that was my own sense of dissonance and looking for a sense of happiness and well-being and purpose in my own life. And the transitions between different parts of the world and different ways of living shook that up a lot. And there were times when I really questioned, am I going in the right direction? Am I happy?
Speaker #1
When you were asking yourself those questions. Was that a time also where you were sensing that there was a need for something different to be going on on the inside? Or how does it tie together?
Speaker #0
So when I moved to New York to start working with the UN, I was definitely earning more money than I had before. I felt like I was working at a global level that was really challenging and felt like a high point in my career. And I was also busier than I'd ever been and kind of more anxious. And there was a constant fear of, am I doing the right thing? Am I making an impact? All these things that I had not experienced so much before. And it was a time for me to really contemplate, how do I look after myself? And fortunately, I came across meditation and started diving into spirituality, got interested in Buddhism, and then started doing serious retreats and taking time to really cultivate my own inner life, my own resilience. And it was a going back and forth between the work and being in New York and sometimes several months in retreat. And I found that the two really went together in a way that kept me alive and invigorated the work as well.
Speaker #1
So, I mean, I'm very interested in how being invigorated yourself and how that then feeds into the work. I think we're going to talk about that a little bit more later on, unless you would like to say anything about that now.
Speaker #0
Well, maybe the thing I would say is there was an aspect. of working with my own ego. You know, one of the core teachings of Buddhism is that, of course, there are a lot of external circumstances and situations that happen that cause you to suffer, and we all experience that as human beings. But a big part of it is also how we respond to that. That is within our own control, but we're not usually taught how to do that, or we don't feel within our capacity. So that was something I was able to bring in very strongly in terms of working with my own ego, my own expectations, my own pressures. And I realized it was also important in thinking about the work I was doing that a lot of times we're limited by institutional ego and institutional agendas, even though we're trying to do something that is supposed to be of benefit to a much wider community. So it was also raising a lot of questions in my own mind about... How does this inner development relate to the outer work that we're doing in the world?
Speaker #1
It is really interesting, I think, to explore how we can get bogged down by our own ego. Also, wanting to do good work and the relationship between ego and the drive to do good work, it's not necessarily always a good one.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. I mean, I think an initial sense of ego and self is important. It often gets us started. But then we start to demarcate what is self and what is other. Who is our in-group and who are we serving and who is outside of that group? And then who are our competitors and how do we get ahead of them? And soon it becomes a very complex game of often institutional competition and survival under this umbrella of wanting to do good things in the world. So I think that kind of reflection individually and at an organizational level is really important.
Speaker #1
Hmm.
Speaker #0
Another insight that came to me was this idea that we have the capacity to shift things also. The Buddha said, we are what we think, all that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. And that's quite a powerful statement if you're thinking about the world we want to create. We tend to jump to the technology, the tools, the policy, but we rarely look inside to say, well, what is it that we want to create? And I think that's starting point. is relevant when I think about both the individual journey and the journey of transforming systems.
Speaker #1
But of course, one of the things that you have been involved in is Bhutan's gross national happiness approach. So it was first introduced in the 1970s as a counterpoint to the idea of gross domestic product, sort of as an idea of how a society can succeed. Can you tell me a little bit about it? What led to this idea in the first place?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think GNH or gross national happiness really points to this idea that Inner development and outer development are linked, and they need to go hand in hand. I think the way that the leaders, including the kings of Bhutan and the prime ministers, would say it is that spiritual and material development should progress together. And that's quite a brilliant statement in the context of a country that was entering globalization and the world economy slowly and deliberately in the 1970s. So the fourth king at that time. was looking around him, traveling around the world, seeing some of the benefits and gifts of economic development and also some of the downsides. And he said as Bhutan started to open up to the world, gross national happiness would be more important than gross national product. In other words, looking after the happiness and well-being of people, living organisms, the country itself, indeed the world, was the center of... the economy and economic development and not just GDP growth, economic growth for its own sake. So I think that was a pretty profound statement to be making in the 1970s and it's continued up to the present day.
Speaker #1
And so what was the definition then of happiness? What was the idea? What should constitute happiness?
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's a brilliant question and I love the definitions that have come from Bhutan. The first prime minister said true abiding happiness. happiness cannot exist while others suffer, but comes from serving others, living in harmony with nature, and coming to know the true and brilliant nature of our own minds. So right away you see happiness is relational. It's not me and my personal little nugget of happiness that I'm going to protect from the rest of the world. It's in relation to others, and that's an extraordinary comment that actually we cannot be happy. if others around us are suffering, that our happiness depends on living in balance and harmony with nature. We now know that from climate science, and that's very much the case. And perhaps most profoundly, our inner relationship with ourselves, that if we do not connect with our inner wisdom, our sense of purpose and meaning, we also can't be happy. So I think that's a very profound definition of happiness, and very different from The idea of hedonia or pleasure or, you know, having a good cappuccino, that kind of happiness, which is transient, doesn't last. And certainly you can't use that to steer a country in the right direction.
Speaker #1
I'm really interested to hear how the country responded to these efforts and also how going inside played a role in cementing this approach. What are the... pillars of gross national happiness?
Speaker #0
I think in order to know if you're going in the right direction, it's helpful to have some kind of measure. And Bhutan measures GNH through nine domains, nine areas. Some of them are kind of the backbones of development. So health, obviously, education, living standards, everybody needs those basics in order to be happy and well. But then some unusual ones, time use. And in a time of time poverty, I think many of us can relate to that. Psychological well-being, obviously we're experiencing a global crisis in that right now. Cultural diversity and resilience, community vitality, good governance, whether there's trust in the government, whether people are voting. All of these things are seen as important measures of whether a country like Bhutan feels they're moving in the right direction. It's something that you can actually... measure in national surveys over time.
Speaker #1
In many ways, you might say then that Bhutan has been a living experiment in developing an alternative economy. What are the lessons that have emerged?
Speaker #0
I think part of it is the importance of vision and values, and that this is championed by the leadership as it has been in Bhutan. Many places we don't even ask what is the purpose of the economy. So being very clear about the vision is important. And then measures are great, but they're not enough. So do they translate into policies? And in Bhutan, you would see that they're really trying to minimize the impact of tourism and try to balance the impacts on economic growth, preserving environment, preserving culture. So there's a sustainable development fee that you would pay as a tourist to visit Bhutan. Also, I think Bhutan is committed to keeping at least 60% of the country under forced cover for all time. So that has translated into being one of the first carbon negative countries in the world. So I think that's an important aspect, having policies that are aligned with the vision and the values. And then bringing people along on the journey and making sure that it's kind of in alignment with what's happening on the ground. And I would say that since the COVID pandemic, Bhutan has faced some real challenges because tourism was a real source of national revenue. When everything shut down, it put a lot of pressure on jobs and especially for young people. And so in recent years, young people have been checking out other countries, wanting to find job opportunities elsewhere. And that's been a challenge for the country. I would say also... Bhutan is not immune to the marketing, the advertising, the social media. And young people there will see images of people having what they think is the great life in Australia and Europe, the United States. And that can be a big lure out of the country as well.
Speaker #1
So is that what is happening to some degree then, that people are being drawn away?
Speaker #0
Yes, I think we've been very successful at marketing a model that is not necessarily delivering what it promises. but of course Young people are curious and they want to spread their wings. I think the hope is that they will gain skills and experience and also maybe experience a bit of the disillusionment of going abroad that is also part of that journey and come home maybe with a bit of a deeper sense of understanding about why Bhutan is different and maybe a different sense of appreciation in taking Bhutan through this next phase of its own story.
Speaker #1
The younger generation aside, Would you say that it has been... a successful endeavor to embed the values that go hand in hand with this approach into the lives and the way of life of the country and people in the country?
Speaker #0
I think in Bhutan, what has been helpful is that many of those values were already very much a part of the culture and the community life. And I think G&H grew as an expression of that rather than being kind of retrofitted onto it. although the measurements came later on. What you could say is, as one of the ministers said, Bhutan can't be a G&H bubble in a GDP world. And so I think the interest in Bhutan and the wish to visit should come not with this kind of Shangri-La mentality, like Bhutan has it all sorted out, why are there problems, but more like what is our role in helping a country like Bhutan stay the course. What can we be doing on our side? What are the lessons for our own over-consuming cultures so that we can be part of what allows these experiments to thrive?
Speaker #1
It sounds like the gross national happiness has been shaped by the culture and the values of the country. Are there, to the best of your knowledge, examples of similar initiatives happening elsewhere in the world?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's really relevant to other countries. It doesn't have to be a small Buddhist kingdom in the Himalayas. Even the notion of asking what is the purpose of the economy or of society, there are ancient roots to that in Western philosophy. Aristotle spoke about eudaimonia, a good life, a meaningful life, as being the center of building a society. In Southern Africa, you hear of Ubuntu, I am because you are. So this notion of our interdependence and that shaping how we think about the economy and society is really important. I think you're seeing examples now of the gift economy, circular economies, well-being economies. These are all similar expressions of what Bhutan has been trying to do. There's also examples of businesses trying to take up measurements that are like G&H. Again, not just looking at profit, but looking at well-being, balance with nature, and so on. Well-being economies alliance is doing great work looking at How do we start similar well-being economy models, whether at the city level, communities, or organizations? I think there's a... A global initiative that's really interesting called Earth for All, which is with the Club of Rome and partners. Again, looking at what kind of transformational economics could help move us from a business-as-usual model to something that would really take us into a more positive future. So I see a lot of different examples that are coming up around the world.
Speaker #1
Which is very encouraging, because one could be easily left with the impression that self-interest is really... all that's going on.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's also a part of how our media feeds are happening and how our news coverage is focusing on the negative. But it's really important to keep your eye on what's actually happening and what are the positive seeds of innovation that are going on right now.
Speaker #1
So important. What I would also be really interested to hear from you is why there may now be more of an interest or growing interest in inner development.
Speaker #0
Well, part of it is kind of enlightened self-interest for our basic sanity and well-being. I think really looking at neurodevelopment is now more important than ever. There's a really brilliant piece of research that was published in Science in 2010. It's an oldie but a goodie, and it's called Distracted Mind is an Unhappy Mind. And they basically tracked people on their apps. and looked at what they were doing at various moments of the day, how happy they were at the time, and whether they were actually aware of what they were doing. And their findings were that, I think, almost half the time we're distracted. We're not actually present with what we're doing. And that if we're distracted, we're more likely to be unhappy. And that was actually a stronger correlation than what we're actually doing. So it's not whether you're taking out the garbage or having a lovely romantic dinner with... your partner. It's whether you're present with taking out the garbage or present with being with your partner. So the ability to actually cultivate our own presence is critical to our sense of well-being at this time. And then it connects to the other aspect, which is when we're not doing that, that means we're constantly looking for our happiness outside ourselves, which leads to all of the distractions that we know, whether it's shopping or constant looking for entertainment. And this FOMO, fear of missing out, overconsumption lifestyle, is leading to the devastation of our natural resources and our planet, and ironically, not making us any happier. So I see the two as being really fundamentally connected.
Speaker #1
I think awareness is the operative word here.
Speaker #0
Yeah, staying aware, not sleepwalking through life. The other aspect that's important is that it feels like in these times as human beings, we've kind of forgotten who we are. We're going through a bit of an identity crisis. And a lot of the images and stories that we're being fed are that human beings can't be trusted. We're by nature selfish and competitive and aggressive. And I think it's really important to remember that a lot of that is within our own being, within our own control. And I think one of the really encouraging messages of many spiritual traditions, including Buddhism, is that we are actually basically sane, basically good as human beings, that there's a natural dignity that we possess. And that is being under salt these days because of the media, the advertising, the news. And so reconnecting to our sense as human beings and being able to cultivate our highest potential, I think, is also central to how we're going to face the challenges that are coming up. We have to reconnect to who we are as human beings. And the inner development journey is very much a part of that.
Speaker #1
Well, on that note, and then on a more personal level, how do you pay attention to your own inner development? And how are you bringing it into the work that you do?
Speaker #0
I would say I pay attention to what I cultivate in my life and what I choose to let go. What I cultivate is a daily meditation practice to connect back to that awareness that we were speaking about. taking time to do retreats and to study Buddhism. Again, with the idea that this isn't a luxury, it's not separate from my work. This is what enables me to show up at work with an open mind and an open heart. Random acts of kindness, you know, I think not because it's for the other person, because it lifts my own spirits. I see the interdependence and the magic in the world when I do that. What I choose to let go of is I'm not on social media. I Just check into the news in a minimal way and not allowing news feeds to just throw things at me. During the pandemic, I realized that I didn't want to travel as much. I wanted to slow down. I was able to really pick and choose how I use my time and I kept that up. And also just stopped shopping during the pandemic like a lot of people did. And then figured out that I actually enjoyed living more simply. I enjoyed not having a car. You can actually reorient your dopamine hits so that you feel happy when you kind of renovate a piece of furniture or get your shoes redone instead of buying a new pair. It's like you rewire your neurochemistry. So those are the things I've been playing with a little bit to cultivate my own sense of well-being. And in terms of work, I bring the inner journey, the meditation, the contemplation into all the leadership programs, the well-being economy programs that I do. I also am bringing in a violin. I'm a musician and I love improvised music as a way of kind of cutting through the intellectual overthinking mind to just be in your body, to let the music be what it is. I mean, there's a reason we say we play music. It's playful. I don't think we play enough in our adult lives. And I think that's really important for our creativity and our sense of sanity.
Speaker #1
Even what you were saying there about restoring a piece of furniture or just revamping something. I mean, that is a form of play as well. And it's a form of creativity and self-expression and all of those things, which really, in my experience, also are very nurturing.
Speaker #0
Yeah, very much so.
Speaker #1
People who perhaps wouldn't describe themselves as spiritual, who are thinking, oh, this sounds good. You know, maybe I would like also to find my fulfillment in ways other than I currently do. I wonder if you have any thoughts there.
Speaker #0
I would say first, just acknowledge that we all have an inner life. It seems like a radical thing to say, but for many people, they're almost embarrassed to say, oh, why does it feel like I'm missing something? And to go deeper into trying to explore, acknowledge that there's an inner life that's feeling a little bit thirsty, a little bit curious. And we're living in amazing times when there's so much available at our fingertips. if you're curious, books, retreats, YouTube, all kinds of things. So start by exploring and bring your sense of curiosity with you. Don't let people talk you out of it or feel like it's frivolous somehow. I think that's really important. And then I think the awareness doesn't have to be sitting on a cushion, cross-legged and meditating. For many people, the awareness happens as soon as you walk into a forest. Sometimes your breathing just changes. Other people, it's music, it's exercise, it's running. But seeing it as giving yourself permission to explore and take care of your inner life, I would say is really important.
Speaker #1
Do you have thoughts to offer NGOs or other impact organizations who are looking maybe to begin exploring what's going on on the inside? Would it be the same kind of advice?
Speaker #0
I think that plus what you can do collectively to create an environment where people feel they have permission to be human. I think there's some really good, you could call them social technologies that have been developed by groups like the Presencing Institute that look at how can you even convene a meeting, even if it's just sort of your weekly team meeting, in such a way that it provides a moment to cultivate awareness as a group. to check in with each other so you're actually hearing how people are doing on a human level, to allow space for creativity to pop up on the agenda instead of just plowing through item one to item five and then end of meeting, and ways of really thinking about problem solving that aren't just vertical, top-down, head-thinking ways of working, but much more akin to what we were talking about earlier, play, about bringing forward those different elements. I think there's really good apps and meditation and well-being courses that are out there. Not all of it's good, that you have to really be a bit discerning, but the Center for Healthy Minds, which has also been doing a lot of the neuroscience behind well-being, has a really good program that looks at, I think, four pillars of well-being, cultivating awareness, connection, insight, and purpose. And they've been doing work with educators, people in the health field, people in business, climate activists, in order to cultivate that resilience while they're doing the very challenging work that they're doing.
Speaker #1
Okay. Well, Julia, I have one final question for you. It's the closing question at the bookends of the conversations I have with everybody. So if there were a single quality that you believe the world needs more of right now, what would it be and why?
Speaker #0
I would say it's a sense of curiosity. I think we're living in such an interesting time. When we move into the sense of certainty, whether it's certainty about I have the solution or certainty about, oh, it's all going to go terribly wrong, that cuts off possibilities. And it also really sucks out our energy. I think it's a really important time to be curious. What's next for us as human beings? We're evolving technically in terms of our power, in terms of our awareness. where globally aware as a species now for the first time, what does that mean for our capacity to grow spiritually? What is next for us as human beings? And I think that curiosity leads to a sense of playfulness and a sense of hope and a sense of possibility. And I think that makes not only the journey more fruitful, but it makes the journey worthwhile to be curious. So that's what I would say.
Speaker #1
Okay, well, I will... take that and all of those things takes right back to play. Yes, very much so. Okay, Julie, well, thank you so very much for your time and for this conversation. I wonder if you would play us out a little bit of violin music. You bet. Thank you. It's been a pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much, Tamsin. It's been a pleasure here too.
Speaker #1
If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more about Julia, you'll find the relevant links in the show notes. You'll also find a link to the upcoming Inner Development Goals Summit, including discount codes for both in-person and digital tickets. And if you'd like to hear more inspiring voices from the field of sustainability and inner development, you might like to have a listen through our archive of past episodes, including the first three from this season, in case you missed them. And as always, if this conversation captured your imagination, feel free to share with others you think might be interested. And of course, we'd be grateful if you'd subscribe to the podcast. That's it for this time. Thank you for listening, and bye-bye.

Description

In this conversation:

Julia’s path from medicine to systems work—and how contemplative practice and spirituality inform her leadership
What Gross National Happiness measures and how it reframes policy choices
Practical ways NGOs can create low-barrier spaces for reflection and values-aligned action
Real-world effects of GNH (e.g. community norms around forest conservation) and the tensions of a GDP-centric world

How other Wellbeing Economy approaches are taking shape in the world

Resources:

Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit  innergreendeal.com or write to info@innergreendeal.com.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
I think we're living in such an interesting time. And when we move into the sense of certainty, whether it's certainty about I have the solution or certainty about, oh, it's all going to go terribly wrong, that cuts off possibilities. And it also really sucks out our energy. I think it's a really important time to be curious. What's next for us as human beings?
Speaker #1
Welcome back to the Inner Green Deal podcast with me, Tamsin Walker, and to another episode exploring the role of inner development in the work of NGOs and other impact organizations. Many people might be facing current uncertainties, be that in the form of political or financial tensions that stir a drive to push harder and do more. But as we've been hearing over the course of the past episodes, it can also be a moment to invest in inner development. as a way of staying grounded and building the trust and collaboration needed for deeper systemic change. Last month, I spoke to Helmi Aboulaesh of Sekem, an initiative that supports tens of thousands of people while greening parts of the Egyptian desert and has inner development at its core. This time, I'm speaking to Julia Kim about challenging the idea of economic growth as the single metric of success. and about how moving towards a well-being economy requires both new policies and new mindsets, and the role of inner development in helping NGOs and funders to lead that shift. Julia is an expert in global well-being and well-being economies, with a focus on understanding the connection between inner transformation and systems change. After starting out as a medical doctor, she moved into health policy and international development. where she realized the importance of being able to shift mindsets, values, and beliefs. She has since worked for the UN and other agencies, and in recent years has been the program director of the Gross National Happiness Center in Bhutan. She's also a member of the Well-Being Economy Alliance and an executive committee member of the Club of Rome. Welcome, Julia. It's a pleasure to have this time to talk with you.
Speaker #0
Thank you, Tansin. Happy to be here.
Speaker #1
In keeping with the title of the podcast, I'd like to start with a question that everybody is being asked in this season, which is how would you define inner development?
Speaker #0
So I would say inner development is something that is kind of happening all the time, whether we know it or not. And on one level, it's kind of a personal individual thing. And on another level, it's collective, it's societal. So From a personal point of view, we're constantly changing. We have an inner life. And these days, that inner life is often being developed or manipulated or pushed in different directions through all these outside influences, whether that's social media or advertising or just watching the news. But that is influencing our attitudes, our values, our inner life. And we can also be cultivating that. So rather than just going with the flow of whatever the current tide is, I think we can also cultivate our inner development. And there's many, many traditions and wisdom lineages that have been doing that for a long time. And then collectively, we're transforming as human beings. Our culture, our values, what we believe in, our societies is constantly moving and changing. So again, the same question comes up. Is that something we just leave to chance and to world events and to the largest voices? Or is that something that we want to maybe shepherd and steer and promote towards the highest good? So those are the aspects of inner development that come to mind for me.
Speaker #1
Okay, well, thank you. That gets us off to a very good start. And I'm sure that both of those are things that we're going to be looking at a little bit more deeply in this conversation. I mentioned in the introduction... that you began your working life as a medical doctor. But since then, your career has taken a different direction or different directions. Can you explain the role that inner development has played in this journey that you have been on and I imagine are still on?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that my work has been constantly moving upstream, starting from being a physician and looking at individual health and physical and mental well-being. Just to going up to public health and international health and further, and always driven by this, I would say, this sense of dissonance when the previous mental models or ways of working no longer seemed to be. Serving or satisfying. And also a sense of curiosity, just kind of asking, well, why are things like that? Why do people get sick? Why certain people and not others? How do social conditions lead to that? And that brought me to rural Africa to work as an HIV AIDS doctor and working on domestic violence and gender inequalities. And eventually up to health policy and international health at the United Nations in New York. But I think, to be honest, the other part of that was my own sense of dissonance and looking for a sense of happiness and well-being and purpose in my own life. And the transitions between different parts of the world and different ways of living shook that up a lot. And there were times when I really questioned, am I going in the right direction? Am I happy?
Speaker #1
When you were asking yourself those questions. Was that a time also where you were sensing that there was a need for something different to be going on on the inside? Or how does it tie together?
Speaker #0
So when I moved to New York to start working with the UN, I was definitely earning more money than I had before. I felt like I was working at a global level that was really challenging and felt like a high point in my career. And I was also busier than I'd ever been and kind of more anxious. And there was a constant fear of, am I doing the right thing? Am I making an impact? All these things that I had not experienced so much before. And it was a time for me to really contemplate, how do I look after myself? And fortunately, I came across meditation and started diving into spirituality, got interested in Buddhism, and then started doing serious retreats and taking time to really cultivate my own inner life, my own resilience. And it was a going back and forth between the work and being in New York and sometimes several months in retreat. And I found that the two really went together in a way that kept me alive and invigorated the work as well.
Speaker #1
So, I mean, I'm very interested in how being invigorated yourself and how that then feeds into the work. I think we're going to talk about that a little bit more later on, unless you would like to say anything about that now.
Speaker #0
Well, maybe the thing I would say is there was an aspect. of working with my own ego. You know, one of the core teachings of Buddhism is that, of course, there are a lot of external circumstances and situations that happen that cause you to suffer, and we all experience that as human beings. But a big part of it is also how we respond to that. That is within our own control, but we're not usually taught how to do that, or we don't feel within our capacity. So that was something I was able to bring in very strongly in terms of working with my own ego, my own expectations, my own pressures. And I realized it was also important in thinking about the work I was doing that a lot of times we're limited by institutional ego and institutional agendas, even though we're trying to do something that is supposed to be of benefit to a much wider community. So it was also raising a lot of questions in my own mind about... How does this inner development relate to the outer work that we're doing in the world?
Speaker #1
It is really interesting, I think, to explore how we can get bogged down by our own ego. Also, wanting to do good work and the relationship between ego and the drive to do good work, it's not necessarily always a good one.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. I mean, I think an initial sense of ego and self is important. It often gets us started. But then we start to demarcate what is self and what is other. Who is our in-group and who are we serving and who is outside of that group? And then who are our competitors and how do we get ahead of them? And soon it becomes a very complex game of often institutional competition and survival under this umbrella of wanting to do good things in the world. So I think that kind of reflection individually and at an organizational level is really important.
Speaker #1
Hmm.
Speaker #0
Another insight that came to me was this idea that we have the capacity to shift things also. The Buddha said, we are what we think, all that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. And that's quite a powerful statement if you're thinking about the world we want to create. We tend to jump to the technology, the tools, the policy, but we rarely look inside to say, well, what is it that we want to create? And I think that's starting point. is relevant when I think about both the individual journey and the journey of transforming systems.
Speaker #1
But of course, one of the things that you have been involved in is Bhutan's gross national happiness approach. So it was first introduced in the 1970s as a counterpoint to the idea of gross domestic product, sort of as an idea of how a society can succeed. Can you tell me a little bit about it? What led to this idea in the first place?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think GNH or gross national happiness really points to this idea that Inner development and outer development are linked, and they need to go hand in hand. I think the way that the leaders, including the kings of Bhutan and the prime ministers, would say it is that spiritual and material development should progress together. And that's quite a brilliant statement in the context of a country that was entering globalization and the world economy slowly and deliberately in the 1970s. So the fourth king at that time. was looking around him, traveling around the world, seeing some of the benefits and gifts of economic development and also some of the downsides. And he said as Bhutan started to open up to the world, gross national happiness would be more important than gross national product. In other words, looking after the happiness and well-being of people, living organisms, the country itself, indeed the world, was the center of... the economy and economic development and not just GDP growth, economic growth for its own sake. So I think that was a pretty profound statement to be making in the 1970s and it's continued up to the present day.
Speaker #1
And so what was the definition then of happiness? What was the idea? What should constitute happiness?
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's a brilliant question and I love the definitions that have come from Bhutan. The first prime minister said true abiding happiness. happiness cannot exist while others suffer, but comes from serving others, living in harmony with nature, and coming to know the true and brilliant nature of our own minds. So right away you see happiness is relational. It's not me and my personal little nugget of happiness that I'm going to protect from the rest of the world. It's in relation to others, and that's an extraordinary comment that actually we cannot be happy. if others around us are suffering, that our happiness depends on living in balance and harmony with nature. We now know that from climate science, and that's very much the case. And perhaps most profoundly, our inner relationship with ourselves, that if we do not connect with our inner wisdom, our sense of purpose and meaning, we also can't be happy. So I think that's a very profound definition of happiness, and very different from The idea of hedonia or pleasure or, you know, having a good cappuccino, that kind of happiness, which is transient, doesn't last. And certainly you can't use that to steer a country in the right direction.
Speaker #1
I'm really interested to hear how the country responded to these efforts and also how going inside played a role in cementing this approach. What are the... pillars of gross national happiness?
Speaker #0
I think in order to know if you're going in the right direction, it's helpful to have some kind of measure. And Bhutan measures GNH through nine domains, nine areas. Some of them are kind of the backbones of development. So health, obviously, education, living standards, everybody needs those basics in order to be happy and well. But then some unusual ones, time use. And in a time of time poverty, I think many of us can relate to that. Psychological well-being, obviously we're experiencing a global crisis in that right now. Cultural diversity and resilience, community vitality, good governance, whether there's trust in the government, whether people are voting. All of these things are seen as important measures of whether a country like Bhutan feels they're moving in the right direction. It's something that you can actually... measure in national surveys over time.
Speaker #1
In many ways, you might say then that Bhutan has been a living experiment in developing an alternative economy. What are the lessons that have emerged?
Speaker #0
I think part of it is the importance of vision and values, and that this is championed by the leadership as it has been in Bhutan. Many places we don't even ask what is the purpose of the economy. So being very clear about the vision is important. And then measures are great, but they're not enough. So do they translate into policies? And in Bhutan, you would see that they're really trying to minimize the impact of tourism and try to balance the impacts on economic growth, preserving environment, preserving culture. So there's a sustainable development fee that you would pay as a tourist to visit Bhutan. Also, I think Bhutan is committed to keeping at least 60% of the country under forced cover for all time. So that has translated into being one of the first carbon negative countries in the world. So I think that's an important aspect, having policies that are aligned with the vision and the values. And then bringing people along on the journey and making sure that it's kind of in alignment with what's happening on the ground. And I would say that since the COVID pandemic, Bhutan has faced some real challenges because tourism was a real source of national revenue. When everything shut down, it put a lot of pressure on jobs and especially for young people. And so in recent years, young people have been checking out other countries, wanting to find job opportunities elsewhere. And that's been a challenge for the country. I would say also... Bhutan is not immune to the marketing, the advertising, the social media. And young people there will see images of people having what they think is the great life in Australia and Europe, the United States. And that can be a big lure out of the country as well.
Speaker #1
So is that what is happening to some degree then, that people are being drawn away?
Speaker #0
Yes, I think we've been very successful at marketing a model that is not necessarily delivering what it promises. but of course Young people are curious and they want to spread their wings. I think the hope is that they will gain skills and experience and also maybe experience a bit of the disillusionment of going abroad that is also part of that journey and come home maybe with a bit of a deeper sense of understanding about why Bhutan is different and maybe a different sense of appreciation in taking Bhutan through this next phase of its own story.
Speaker #1
The younger generation aside, Would you say that it has been... a successful endeavor to embed the values that go hand in hand with this approach into the lives and the way of life of the country and people in the country?
Speaker #0
I think in Bhutan, what has been helpful is that many of those values were already very much a part of the culture and the community life. And I think G&H grew as an expression of that rather than being kind of retrofitted onto it. although the measurements came later on. What you could say is, as one of the ministers said, Bhutan can't be a G&H bubble in a GDP world. And so I think the interest in Bhutan and the wish to visit should come not with this kind of Shangri-La mentality, like Bhutan has it all sorted out, why are there problems, but more like what is our role in helping a country like Bhutan stay the course. What can we be doing on our side? What are the lessons for our own over-consuming cultures so that we can be part of what allows these experiments to thrive?
Speaker #1
It sounds like the gross national happiness has been shaped by the culture and the values of the country. Are there, to the best of your knowledge, examples of similar initiatives happening elsewhere in the world?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's really relevant to other countries. It doesn't have to be a small Buddhist kingdom in the Himalayas. Even the notion of asking what is the purpose of the economy or of society, there are ancient roots to that in Western philosophy. Aristotle spoke about eudaimonia, a good life, a meaningful life, as being the center of building a society. In Southern Africa, you hear of Ubuntu, I am because you are. So this notion of our interdependence and that shaping how we think about the economy and society is really important. I think you're seeing examples now of the gift economy, circular economies, well-being economies. These are all similar expressions of what Bhutan has been trying to do. There's also examples of businesses trying to take up measurements that are like G&H. Again, not just looking at profit, but looking at well-being, balance with nature, and so on. Well-being economies alliance is doing great work looking at How do we start similar well-being economy models, whether at the city level, communities, or organizations? I think there's a... A global initiative that's really interesting called Earth for All, which is with the Club of Rome and partners. Again, looking at what kind of transformational economics could help move us from a business-as-usual model to something that would really take us into a more positive future. So I see a lot of different examples that are coming up around the world.
Speaker #1
Which is very encouraging, because one could be easily left with the impression that self-interest is really... all that's going on.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's also a part of how our media feeds are happening and how our news coverage is focusing on the negative. But it's really important to keep your eye on what's actually happening and what are the positive seeds of innovation that are going on right now.
Speaker #1
So important. What I would also be really interested to hear from you is why there may now be more of an interest or growing interest in inner development.
Speaker #0
Well, part of it is kind of enlightened self-interest for our basic sanity and well-being. I think really looking at neurodevelopment is now more important than ever. There's a really brilliant piece of research that was published in Science in 2010. It's an oldie but a goodie, and it's called Distracted Mind is an Unhappy Mind. And they basically tracked people on their apps. and looked at what they were doing at various moments of the day, how happy they were at the time, and whether they were actually aware of what they were doing. And their findings were that, I think, almost half the time we're distracted. We're not actually present with what we're doing. And that if we're distracted, we're more likely to be unhappy. And that was actually a stronger correlation than what we're actually doing. So it's not whether you're taking out the garbage or having a lovely romantic dinner with... your partner. It's whether you're present with taking out the garbage or present with being with your partner. So the ability to actually cultivate our own presence is critical to our sense of well-being at this time. And then it connects to the other aspect, which is when we're not doing that, that means we're constantly looking for our happiness outside ourselves, which leads to all of the distractions that we know, whether it's shopping or constant looking for entertainment. And this FOMO, fear of missing out, overconsumption lifestyle, is leading to the devastation of our natural resources and our planet, and ironically, not making us any happier. So I see the two as being really fundamentally connected.
Speaker #1
I think awareness is the operative word here.
Speaker #0
Yeah, staying aware, not sleepwalking through life. The other aspect that's important is that it feels like in these times as human beings, we've kind of forgotten who we are. We're going through a bit of an identity crisis. And a lot of the images and stories that we're being fed are that human beings can't be trusted. We're by nature selfish and competitive and aggressive. And I think it's really important to remember that a lot of that is within our own being, within our own control. And I think one of the really encouraging messages of many spiritual traditions, including Buddhism, is that we are actually basically sane, basically good as human beings, that there's a natural dignity that we possess. And that is being under salt these days because of the media, the advertising, the news. And so reconnecting to our sense as human beings and being able to cultivate our highest potential, I think, is also central to how we're going to face the challenges that are coming up. We have to reconnect to who we are as human beings. And the inner development journey is very much a part of that.
Speaker #1
Well, on that note, and then on a more personal level, how do you pay attention to your own inner development? And how are you bringing it into the work that you do?
Speaker #0
I would say I pay attention to what I cultivate in my life and what I choose to let go. What I cultivate is a daily meditation practice to connect back to that awareness that we were speaking about. taking time to do retreats and to study Buddhism. Again, with the idea that this isn't a luxury, it's not separate from my work. This is what enables me to show up at work with an open mind and an open heart. Random acts of kindness, you know, I think not because it's for the other person, because it lifts my own spirits. I see the interdependence and the magic in the world when I do that. What I choose to let go of is I'm not on social media. I Just check into the news in a minimal way and not allowing news feeds to just throw things at me. During the pandemic, I realized that I didn't want to travel as much. I wanted to slow down. I was able to really pick and choose how I use my time and I kept that up. And also just stopped shopping during the pandemic like a lot of people did. And then figured out that I actually enjoyed living more simply. I enjoyed not having a car. You can actually reorient your dopamine hits so that you feel happy when you kind of renovate a piece of furniture or get your shoes redone instead of buying a new pair. It's like you rewire your neurochemistry. So those are the things I've been playing with a little bit to cultivate my own sense of well-being. And in terms of work, I bring the inner journey, the meditation, the contemplation into all the leadership programs, the well-being economy programs that I do. I also am bringing in a violin. I'm a musician and I love improvised music as a way of kind of cutting through the intellectual overthinking mind to just be in your body, to let the music be what it is. I mean, there's a reason we say we play music. It's playful. I don't think we play enough in our adult lives. And I think that's really important for our creativity and our sense of sanity.
Speaker #1
Even what you were saying there about restoring a piece of furniture or just revamping something. I mean, that is a form of play as well. And it's a form of creativity and self-expression and all of those things, which really, in my experience, also are very nurturing.
Speaker #0
Yeah, very much so.
Speaker #1
People who perhaps wouldn't describe themselves as spiritual, who are thinking, oh, this sounds good. You know, maybe I would like also to find my fulfillment in ways other than I currently do. I wonder if you have any thoughts there.
Speaker #0
I would say first, just acknowledge that we all have an inner life. It seems like a radical thing to say, but for many people, they're almost embarrassed to say, oh, why does it feel like I'm missing something? And to go deeper into trying to explore, acknowledge that there's an inner life that's feeling a little bit thirsty, a little bit curious. And we're living in amazing times when there's so much available at our fingertips. if you're curious, books, retreats, YouTube, all kinds of things. So start by exploring and bring your sense of curiosity with you. Don't let people talk you out of it or feel like it's frivolous somehow. I think that's really important. And then I think the awareness doesn't have to be sitting on a cushion, cross-legged and meditating. For many people, the awareness happens as soon as you walk into a forest. Sometimes your breathing just changes. Other people, it's music, it's exercise, it's running. But seeing it as giving yourself permission to explore and take care of your inner life, I would say is really important.
Speaker #1
Do you have thoughts to offer NGOs or other impact organizations who are looking maybe to begin exploring what's going on on the inside? Would it be the same kind of advice?
Speaker #0
I think that plus what you can do collectively to create an environment where people feel they have permission to be human. I think there's some really good, you could call them social technologies that have been developed by groups like the Presencing Institute that look at how can you even convene a meeting, even if it's just sort of your weekly team meeting, in such a way that it provides a moment to cultivate awareness as a group. to check in with each other so you're actually hearing how people are doing on a human level, to allow space for creativity to pop up on the agenda instead of just plowing through item one to item five and then end of meeting, and ways of really thinking about problem solving that aren't just vertical, top-down, head-thinking ways of working, but much more akin to what we were talking about earlier, play, about bringing forward those different elements. I think there's really good apps and meditation and well-being courses that are out there. Not all of it's good, that you have to really be a bit discerning, but the Center for Healthy Minds, which has also been doing a lot of the neuroscience behind well-being, has a really good program that looks at, I think, four pillars of well-being, cultivating awareness, connection, insight, and purpose. And they've been doing work with educators, people in the health field, people in business, climate activists, in order to cultivate that resilience while they're doing the very challenging work that they're doing.
Speaker #1
Okay. Well, Julia, I have one final question for you. It's the closing question at the bookends of the conversations I have with everybody. So if there were a single quality that you believe the world needs more of right now, what would it be and why?
Speaker #0
I would say it's a sense of curiosity. I think we're living in such an interesting time. When we move into the sense of certainty, whether it's certainty about I have the solution or certainty about, oh, it's all going to go terribly wrong, that cuts off possibilities. And it also really sucks out our energy. I think it's a really important time to be curious. What's next for us as human beings? We're evolving technically in terms of our power, in terms of our awareness. where globally aware as a species now for the first time, what does that mean for our capacity to grow spiritually? What is next for us as human beings? And I think that curiosity leads to a sense of playfulness and a sense of hope and a sense of possibility. And I think that makes not only the journey more fruitful, but it makes the journey worthwhile to be curious. So that's what I would say.
Speaker #1
Okay, well, I will... take that and all of those things takes right back to play. Yes, very much so. Okay, Julie, well, thank you so very much for your time and for this conversation. I wonder if you would play us out a little bit of violin music. You bet. Thank you. It's been a pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much, Tamsin. It's been a pleasure here too.
Speaker #1
If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more about Julia, you'll find the relevant links in the show notes. You'll also find a link to the upcoming Inner Development Goals Summit, including discount codes for both in-person and digital tickets. And if you'd like to hear more inspiring voices from the field of sustainability and inner development, you might like to have a listen through our archive of past episodes, including the first three from this season, in case you missed them. And as always, if this conversation captured your imagination, feel free to share with others you think might be interested. And of course, we'd be grateful if you'd subscribe to the podcast. That's it for this time. Thank you for listening, and bye-bye.

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