- Speaker #0
I would be curious to hear what is your definition of leadership?
- Speaker #1
I think that if I have only one tip or piece of advice, and it's not necessarily evident, especially for my generation, is to be yourself or sincere at the day one. A lot of people, they imagine that they need to play a role or to play a game or to imitate. Guys, be yourself. Need also to keep this humanity. If now I'm 60 years old, it's absolutely possible to be trans. to go back at school, to learn, to pass exams. I need people who are embarked with the same qualities.
- Speaker #0
Energy,
- Speaker #1
curiosity, respect of others.
- Speaker #0
Welcome to the Luxury Leadership Talks, a podcast and videocast in which I discuss with inspiring charismatic leaders. of premium and luxury companies about their leadership styles about their way of influencing impacting and guiding people and today we are going to dive into the leadership secrets of the world's biggest most successful company in perfumes and cosmetics i guess you know which company i'm talking about it was my first employer because you're worth it. L'Oréal. And to do so, I'm extremely excited to discuss and meet with an iconic personality, yes, personality, the Global Human Resources Director of L'Oréal across all divisions, the one and only Jean-Claude Legrand.
- Speaker #1
Hello.
- Speaker #0
And welcome and thank you so much for hosting my cameraman and myself here in L'Oréal at the head office, the international head office. Jean-Claude, when I look at your posts on LinkedIn and all you do, I see that you have a very busy schedule. So thank you for... allocating us one hour of your precious time. And at the same time, I say to myself, you do so many things at once. People usually say men are not able to do multitasking. You are the best proof that it's possible.
- Speaker #1
It's a challenge. I try to do so. It's related to my wife, to my daughters. It's a challenge with them. It's a job also with a woman like you.
- Speaker #0
Can you tell us what What does, if this exists, a typical day in the life of Jean-Claude Legrand look like?
- Speaker #1
Typical day, like today for example, it's a cocktail between one-on-one with people and I try to follow people on a kind of long period and to discuss about any topics. It's always something I try to push my team to do so. there I discuss with her. a top manager and we spoke openly about her cancer, about the consequences, about some colleagues with some. She gave me a lot of information. I discovered many things, like always with people, but I saw also a fantastic e-commerce expert, initially a lawyer, who became one of the top people in the knowledge of TikTok, for example. Because it's always, you know, a conversation about the people. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
but it's also to open new facets of personality so that they,
- Speaker #1
but not forcing people,
- Speaker #0
express themselves.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, because it's a way for me to understand better, to learn a lot about themselves. But I did also two meetings before coming because I'm pushing at max with the old partnership with Danone to open EV with a fantastic seminars in Europe, in Asia, in Africa, and to launch in the beginning of 26 in In Latin America and Mexico, at the time, or suddenly, during the last two months, everything changed. Everybody smiled, a lot of major changes, and not for the best. The role of women leaders in companies, equal treatment, minorities, I don't know, from gay, lesbian to black people. So suddenly it's not the same. We started to work quite a few months ago and suddenly it's more evident than ever.
- Speaker #0
You mentioned EVE. What is EVE? Can you say a word on that?
- Speaker #1
It's a seminar. I participated actively to the creation with my team, probably 15 years ago. in Europe and it's a seminar of three days and it's a way about a lot of super accurate topics. It was quite new 15 years ago about well-being, about work-life balance, about trust because as you know, Kayla, it's impossible to buy trust, you are building trust. And like I'm all now, I'm able to multiply things during the day. It's funny because I share my agenda. And if you want to take an appointment with me, I think it's not possible before September. It's funny because now I lack a doctor.
- Speaker #0
And we just need to fix our appointment and be really on time. A very demanded doctor. Jean-Claude, this podcast is about leadership. And I know there are so many different definitions about leadership. When you look at what people say, what is leadership? I would be curious to hear what is your definition of leadership?
- Speaker #1
My definition of leadership. I agree with you. I think that there is no one side, one way. I think that if I have only one tip or piece of advice, and it's not necessarily evident, especially for my generation, is to be yourself or sincere at day one. I think that there is no time to waste. There is no replay. And I think that a lot of people, they imagine that they need to play a role. game or to imitate other guys be yourself it's enough after if you are not necessarily the right person you want work work and work again it's what it's something is absolutely fantastic about yourself with one of this interview today um it's not necessarily one of my favorite topic but i'm also i'm always i love sometimes discussing about the kids yeah you imagine this this fantastic woman. She's the mother of three guys. One is starting to learn. He started years ago. He's more or less fluent in Chinese. Doing an exchange program in Tsinghua. It's one of the best Chinese universities. The other one is in California.
- Speaker #0
Tsinghua University. I've been teaching in Tsinghua University in Beijing.
- Speaker #1
Congratulations. He's in Beijing. The other one is in California, moving to McGill in artificial intelligence. Yep. And the third one is a physician at École Polytechnique de Lausanne. So you imagine for me, it's crazy how we're able to do so many possibilities. And about leadership, some people are limiting themselves and we have no limit. But we need to be conscious of there is only one limit, it's the time. Because some people are procrastinating about what I'm going to do, planning. One part of my team is working about Five years ago it had been COVID. Five years later, what are the consequences? What does it mean in terms of hybrid work or remote work? Or full return to the office? I think that one of the crazy things of today, people are lacking about the importance of the speed. And because we have no time. We are only there for 67 in our life. and if we are comparing with the history of the earth, I think that people imagine that they are there forever.
- Speaker #0
If I say to you, leadership is, you would complete with what?
- Speaker #1
Yourself.
- Speaker #0
Yourself. Amazing. I remember when I started at L'Oréal, this was in 1999, you were already human resources director. Absolutely. And today you are overlooking... all of the divisions of the 94,000 employees across around...
- Speaker #1
We just merged the 4,000 employees of ESOP. Some of them are more than welcome.
- Speaker #0
And so you have people from really all across the world. Which were, in your opinion, the biggest step stones that really marked your career as a leader. in your position today? When you look back to your moments, was there two or three stepstones where you say this was critical to how I became as a leader today?
- Speaker #1
I think that... It's something I try to encourage and to replicate, and it's a little bit more complicated to the size of the company. Because I grew not in a startup, but L'Oréal was already a big company, but not necessarily as visible as today. Now, it's the fact that taking early responsibilities, I think that is absolutely vital. We need to push this idea of there is no correlation between your age and your level. of responsibilities.
- Speaker #0
No matter your age, you can take leadership even at a young age.
- Speaker #1
The companies, the generation before, gave me super big responsibilities when I was 33 years old because it was 25 years ago and I overtook 35 and I overtook the French. It was, I'm more consumer guy initially, but in the consumer division, it was Division France. I was very young and said, go for it. It was thousands of employees. It was super important at this time. Lorel in France was a very important masterpiece of the European. And you imagine when when they started, for example, to take this the helm of this possibility, there is no business in China. We are building China with the effort of a generation of people there. So it was that after I took in 2000.
- Speaker #0
It was really the opening.
- Speaker #1
2000, I was 35 years old and I became the head of HR. of Cosmetic Active, it was one of the four divisions of the company and it was a great possible but I was coming for the consumer good, why changing and it's only after that I discovered the importance of promoting people young changing all the time, not to say I'm occupying something forever.
- Speaker #0
Jean-Claude, you are to me a real people person who loves to connect. And I remember we recently met again at the newly renovated historic head office, the Visionnaire, beautiful location, the Augean Schiller, Visionnaire, Eugen Schiller, François Dalle, they had their head office. You immediately remembered me, we chatted together and you put me in contact with people of your team. You need to talk to this person and that person. To me, this is really what I call relational intelligence. This intelligence of connecting people and amplifying things and moments. Where does it come from? In your opinion, this talent of... connecting people and working with people. Who gave this to you? Maybe even when you look back to your childhood, I don't know.
- Speaker #1
It's coming from that, clearly, because I was super shy. So I was observing all the time and I was not in... I want to be outside. I remember so well. It's funny because one of my kids, one of my daughter is like that. And she's... I remember I told her she's 13 now and it was six or seven years ago. She came to a birthday party and she said, I don't want to stay without you. And she cried. Even myself, I never managed that with my parents. So I said, OK, I understand this. I'm going to take you with me. And we discussed a lot about that. So I was super shy. And the second thing, and people, they don't want to believe me about that. So it's a... I just wanted to tell you. If you ask into my family, my father, he can't tell you, but he's old now. And it's a work. It means I decided one day to be less shy.
- Speaker #0
Okay, it's your decision.
- Speaker #1
Absolutely. Because I said, guys, finally, I'm going to miss so many opportunities. But initially, I was in my bubble. I don't want to be with others. I was shy. And I said, finally, it's a shock. I realized that I'm going to miss something. So it's a decision. It's not coming because somebody told me. Because I said, I need to do more. I need to work differently. I need to behave differently. But it's a choice.
- Speaker #0
You know what? I have so many because my second profession is professor. in business schools at Ausha and I have so many students who are shy. Yeah? Shy, they don't dare to speak up. I tell them, speak up because then we interact and it becomes much more exciting. They can't. Do you have any recommendation for so many shy people in the world? It's your time. Tell them. No,
- Speaker #1
but life is super short. You have only, you know, it's the reason why I'm always preparing people, saying guys, it's between 35 and 55, you have a window of 20 years and... during these 20 years you need to change the world. I think that lucky I've been, it's one of the piece of advice of my mother, who told me a long time ago, came from China, a proverb, life is like a comb.
- Speaker #0
Life is like a comb.
- Speaker #1
And it means that you have the comb when you are bald. Because when the people are young, they never imagine that they are going to be bald. So they don't use the comb. And it's only at the end of their life when they have no hair anymore, they say, Guys, baby, it's too late. So use the comb, the sooner will be the better. And it's always a conversation about that. Because when, especially young males, they have so many hairs, they say, Guys, ten years after you are not bald anymore. And in between it's only ten years. So life is super short. you have no other way be yourself the sooner will be the better don't waste time and all these years i i'm shy and i'm going to do it okay no time no time to waste and i think it's one of the secrets of life wow is to help people to be themselves the sooner will be the better don't waste time there
- Speaker #0
is no time amazing amazing recommendation waste time my dad he always says carpe diem I use every single moment, every single day.
- Speaker #1
I know this piece of advice. I'm lucky I took into consideration at the end of 80, this kind of idea.
- Speaker #0
Since you've been with L'Oréal for 30 years now, you are one of the people, one of the leaders who really shaped the company culture of L'Oréal. And also making L'Oréal, to me, it's one of those companies which Masters keeping long-term relationships even beyond after when we quit L'Oréal, we still stay in relationship with that. What would you say is this unique company culture of L'Oréal that gives it a true competitive advantage?
- Speaker #1
If you're asking us, the difference is, it's funny because first, It's a real advantage. It's based on the human resources policy. And human resources policy means done by managers. It's a frame, it's not only for HR for HR. It's all together the way we are embarking people in the adventure. But what is fantastic about that is 10 times more easier to replicate than a patent. But no worries, nobody is going to do so because it's only a question of commitment and to deal with people, with humanity. I can tell you that it's another story. It's great to declare something. So it's what I say, guys, if I want to, if I'm going to be judged, judge my 30 years, and especially my last eight or nine years of agility of the company. So all the decisions I took, I'm able to assume, and it had been done with always this idea of people at the center and not only consideration, economical consideration. It's a battle. I have also the same financial people that everybody has.
- Speaker #0
Now, what you do today is you overlook all of the four different divisions. I've always been with the luxury division. And you moved through many different divisions. Today, you overlook all of them. I animated, actually, conferences for all divisions at L'Oréal after I quit. So, I animated a conference for Cosmetic Active. then Many times, by the way, for professional hair care and also for the luxury division. And it's always just a great feeling to be back, to be back home. Like today.
- Speaker #1
It's the reason why we decided, I decided 10 years ago. So, more or less, it's 1,000 people per year. I'm back. Boomerang. So, now everybody's practicing. Super. Do it.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So, what I would be super curious to hear from you is... When you recruit leaders for the luxury division, how is leadership different from somebody who is expected to lead in the luxury division, where we have beautiful brands, Mugler now, we have Prada, Armani, versus maybe mass market division, where products...
- Speaker #1
This idea is funny. It's always my conversation. I'm going to have a meeting with the luxury people. you saw probably like me, that in the leader of Lux a week ago they promoted two Laurelian guys, I recruited both of them, I had sorted HEC 25 years ago, they never spent a minute in the luxury industry. So now there is no leader for the Air Division or for LDB, even if it's a pharmacies or even if it's a dermatologist or even if it's somebody no i i need people We are embarked with the same qualities.
- Speaker #0
Energy,
- Speaker #1
curiosity, respect of others. With that, I'm done.
- Speaker #0
Three keys.
- Speaker #1
Energy,
- Speaker #0
curiosity...
- Speaker #1
I spend a lot of time to interview in order to be sure that the people have this level of energy, commitment, they want to change the world, they have dreams. They are not on their sofa, they say, guys, I don't know what is going to happen, I don't need this kind of...
- Speaker #0
Which tells me that... uh, leadership qualities are universal in order to embark people.
- Speaker #1
This idea is actually different. It's not.
- Speaker #0
Maybe it's different in marketing because here we have different... You can learn. Of course.
- Speaker #1
You can learn, but after you can change. Why people are there for... It's very interesting. Jean-Paul entered in this building at the inauguration time in 1978. So you imagine 1978, almost 50 years. If he's still there 50 years after, it's not because he has a gun, it's not because it's an obligation, it's not forced, because it's a pleasure. Why is it a pleasure? To do international career, 1,600 expatriates. Like Emmanuel, we discussed about Emmanuel Goulart, you crossed Emmanuel, he got for Emmanuel.
- Speaker #0
One of my first colleagues.
- Speaker #1
Imagine Emmanuel, he moved to Asia, he came back. We send him in Italy, discover something completely different, in change for luxury to another global world. So it's a challenge. It's always a challenge to adapt, to see how people are going to adapt. And be careful about appearance. Because if you know him, some people are thinking he's very classical. Don't dig guys. It's the reason why also I'm working for more than 20 years on appearance. A lot of people that are going to judge in two seconds. Because we are animals.
- Speaker #0
That's what you wear, always behave, yeah.
- Speaker #1
It's clear, it's great to have a feeling, but the feeling is animals, the education, or the background is to have insight and to judge with humanity and not only because I love, I hate, I don't know the color, the age, the color of the skin, it's visible, we are animals, we are able to evaluate that, but after we need to work on it.
- Speaker #0
So that's also a great learning to not judge from the first impression on people.
- Speaker #1
It's normal to have one. Of course. But we need to consider that, but not to just...
- Speaker #0
Stay on it.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Animals are going to stay on this first impression. They're not going to have that.
- Speaker #0
We can dig. We can question.
- Speaker #1
We have to, and especially HR people, they have to dig.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely.
- Speaker #1
And they have to dig and to know.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I think you have, I don't know, how many thousands of talents you've recruited at L'Oréal. A lot. A lot.
- Speaker #1
I used to say I interviewed 35,000 people.
- Speaker #0
You've seen many people pass, others recruit, not recruit, but when you have to recruit somebody in a leadership role, how would you detect that somebody can become one of those potential leaders of tomorrow? And I remember...
- Speaker #1
I've been starting with design in mind. I'm always searching with the new Hieronymus, who I remember so well, many times ago, I was searching the new Angel, the new Agon. So I'm always this quest in mind. and I'm pushing the people to reveal the best of what they have. I think that we have a lot. It's the reason why, for example, initially, years ago, my presence was working with one person. Now it's all players. We're all working, everybody. Because we have all the talent, the question is, and after it depends on your life. Are you mobile, not mobile, ready to jump in? It's so personal. Your personal life is great or not. You have some difficulties. Suddenly you have a disease, I discuss about you about cancer, you imagine suddenly your life is still a super taboo, life is changing, so you are not necessarily at the top of the time. So we need to consider this.
- Speaker #0
It's like ups and downs.
- Speaker #1
Yes, we need to consider that. And after, the reason why Napoleon is always asking, are you lucky or not? It doesn't mean nothing at this time. Nobody is playing EuroMillion. It's a question of for me to be lucky or not, it's to be lucky to be cursed enough. Because as you said, everything is coming from others. So. or others are going to help you. It's true in your personal life, it's true in your professional life. But you need to be careful and to listen carefully.
- Speaker #0
This innovation was one of my questions where I think it's very interesting. L'Oréal was to me always a pioneering company. And of course, there's this very important role of product development. Lots of people are developing new products, trying to disrupt, trying to bring out new products, they succeed or they fail. I mean, you have both. What did you do in terms of human resources management in order to create for so many talents a good ground for innovation so that they dare to, you know, openly think, to break the box?
- Speaker #1
It's a growth mindset. As the idea is, guys, how we can create new ideas, we are going to... first-world service or real innovation and it's a stimulation because to describe L'Oréal and I used to say that with people they know, the first shock is in the first meeting. Because you are around the table and there is a conversation and suddenly you say, wow, she, he, her, they have ideas different from mine. It's super stimulating because you are not, like in many companies, the only one. There's a bunch of super talented people. This is the secret. The secret that the difference of many companies, not only... one leading other who are okay, is to have hundreds of super talented people. And like the idea and something I changed many years ago is not to say a lot of careers there is less and less opportunities, say exactly the same thing, there is more and more because we are growing new brands, because we are launching new countries, because we are launching new categories, because we are observing the world differently. When we are entering in aesthetics is different. clear that suddenly It's opening new ideas for people coming from LDB. By the way, we doubled the size in the last five years like startups. When we are acquiring Aesop, it's fantastic new exchange, discovery.
- Speaker #0
What happens when L'Oréal acquires a new company like Aesop, for instance, from a leadership perspective? What is happening?
- Speaker #1
Some leaders are still with us, some are coming from L'Oréal.
- Speaker #0
So in the beginning, when the company has been purchased, what kind of trainings did they get in order to integrate? Integrate.
- Speaker #1
I think the key of success is to do it the sooner will be the better. If it's only on the side, the guys know you are not really L'Oréalian, but not completely. It's a big mistake. We learn of the mistakes.
- Speaker #0
And how do you onboard people today?
- Speaker #1
It's this idea of fit. It's one of the first surprises. people because I used to say you need two years to catch a culture to understand to decode before two years it's very complicated to discuss because it's something very human connection and we are creating a program where there is averagely one of the connection because we want to help people with the first network we are a very network company so they need to know people in order to leverage his connection from the lab, from operations, from the supply, from digital, from tech, rather than work in a Korean system.
- Speaker #0
What would you say did L'Oréal do or did you implement in order to value talents, to make them visible also within the company? Because that's something I observed. Sometimes you have talents and people don't even know it. People don't show it.
- Speaker #1
We want them to refill, but there is no... There are many initiatives internally to help people to reveal, like we did for Exxon with BronzStorm.
- Speaker #0
Can you say a word about it?
- Speaker #1
About BronzStorm? Yes. Oh, BronzStorm, we started... It's funny because initially it was a business game. Everybody came on this market, a big business game from Danone, from LVMH, from Procter. Today there is nobody else. And because always the question is a question of long term. It's great to start something, it's better to unleash. to work again with different teams, different visions. So we are almost 35 years after. This year we are going to reach 200,000 students. 200,000 students.
- Speaker #0
Just one day.
- Speaker #1
One day it will be a million. I said to the team many years ago, one day it's going to reach one million. That always a surprise. But one day it will be a million of students because it's not only a way to select, it's also a way to learn, to train. And so this is more so, but internally we're also internal. competition of best practices. It's super powerful, especially for example in the consumer good. I'm a member of the jury and it's people presenting best practice in sales, in innovation, in marketing and it's a huge simulation but it's not a way to assess their quality because we're assessing all the time. We're an assessing machine.
- Speaker #0
Since you mentioned Nicolas Hieronymus as the CEO, the global CEO of L'Oréal, you are so close with him side by side. How do you see him as a leader?
- Speaker #1
For me it's very interesting because he's very human. For some people sometimes he's quite cold but no he's very smart. He's been there for almost 40 years, he knows a lot of things.
- Speaker #0
What are the major challenges working so close with a CEO who is heading really all of the strategies. of a giant like L'Oreal. No, the main challenge is always the same. Like it's a long-term vision, it's more to think who is going to replace him and who is behind the scene and who is going to replace him, the replacement of him. I remember very well when I was young, the dream of Mr. Owen Jones was to reach 15 billion euros turnover in 2000. We ended more or less at 45. Even for him, he's quite old probably today. He's watching the company, he said what they did and it's due to the… Part of what they did in order to select for example, Hieronymus. When he was young, he was working with him, with Patrick, after he became the number two of Jean Polagon. The success for me is the fact that we're able to select on this idea of long term.
- Speaker #1
What made you decide to step right into people leadership, human resources?
- Speaker #0
It's a long time ago, it's when I was very young, because it's the reason why I have a lot of respect. You know, it's a trend, say in France, So, École Nationale des Internationaux is not at all interested. So I prepared, but I felt because the preparation was so intense, I prepared a lot. I was coming from Provence and I felt that it's possible to have it, it's possible not. And I prepared Plan B. I was 22 years old and searching. And it's always like that for me, it's exchanging with people. And also, I saw a book at this time about the headhunter, it was one of the first books. And I said, why not explore this kind of idea? And I entered in the Dauphine. It was a second promotion of this training about HR. It was at the end of the 80s and it was something completely new. Because initially, My dream was to be a diplomat. I always with this idea of connecting people, to be in tune, in touch with people. But I discovered that...
- Speaker #1
And that's why you wanted to do inner, to become a diplomat.
- Speaker #0
And finally I discovered this new HR role. And I started a long time ago in this job. And for me to be HR, it's a fantastic opportunity, first to be in connection, but to have impact. It's super funny because when I was young, it was when I was in a dinner or in a cocktail with friends or in a party. They would say, what is HR? What are you doing? It's nothing.
- Speaker #1
When you told people what you're doing,
- Speaker #0
they were... No interest. So it's clear that when I started almost 40 years ago, HR was completely on the side. Today,
- Speaker #1
it's at the heart of the company.
- Speaker #0
Especially, and congratulations. You are a great coach, but for especially coaching. It's also funny because this morning I was searching a document and I found a document where I did for Jean-Paul Agouin this time. It's part of the innovation. So, for example, I had been the first in 1988, 1998 to discuss with external coach and to start coaching internally. I remember so well the reaction of my manager at the time. So my dear Jean-Claude, you are telling me that somebody from outside, so outside, wow.
- Speaker #1
Impossible to let somebody come inside the company.
- Speaker #0
Somebody from outside is going to help somebody from inside to improve. Yes, exactly that. And we did it. And then you did it. And today, it's funny because only from my population there is 80 coaches.
- Speaker #1
I just wanted to ask the question. So the image today, the reality today is that
- Speaker #0
There is coaching everywhere.
- Speaker #1
There is coaching everywhere. And I guess all of the leadership teams have somehow coaches on their side.
- Speaker #0
It's also one of my jokes. Her great HRD is Christina Cheno. It was many years ago. She created a program, it's a coaching tool for HR. And I did it because I said it's not only for everybody, it's also for me. And I realized how impossible it is to do, for example, internal coaching. For me, I'm coach, I'm certified, and that guy's coaching is a gift. Coaching is not linked internally. So I realized many things, like always, to be trained and learn. And recently I did a post because I've been trained to process methodology. So I want to demonstrate that even if now I'm 60 years old, it's absolutely possible to be trained, to go back at school, to learn, to pass exams. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I saw that post,
- Speaker #0
to continue all the time. I asked the trainer and he told me it's the first time that there is an Enchanted in this program. But... No, the company did it, but the guy said, no, I don't want to have the exam. He said, yes, I'm going to do the full experience. And even to pass the exam at my age, it's funny because everybody's expecting, oh, I'm going to fail, or I'm going to miss.
- Speaker #1
But this is, I think, a great learning for all, no matter your age, your level of experience. I think it's a lifelong experience. I think just the day when you think I know it all.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
You're done. You are done. You are. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. In your leadership career, is there somebody who was like a mentor to you, somebody you looked up to, somebody who pulled you up? You said, this is somebody I admired and I learned a lot from?
- Speaker #0
Not really. Yes, one of my boss was Patrick Rabin, he had been the role model for, even if the guy was super harsh. Now, I think that It's more the idea, I remember very well because it's funny. 30 years ago, I'd been interviewed by Loan. It was spring, exactly 30 years ago, spring 1995.
- Speaker #1
This is when you started?
- Speaker #0
No, when I'd been recruited. I started months after because I negotiated because I was in a very good term with my previous employers and I was not the type of person and I'm engaged with people. So I said, guys, I'm not able to move in three months. It took six months because I want to be super fair. And to say bye-bye to these people who I put out during five years, a lot of crises with them. It was a very tough moment for me. I was working for an Italian company in the tech industry. I can tell you that it had been years and years of restructuring. It was impossible for me just to say goodbye. So it took six months and I started at the beginning of 1996. But my interview had been during spring and summer 30 years ago precisely. But what I remember very well, I was in front of the HIV and my mind said, one day I will be there. It was completely impossible, completely underdog, not coming from L'Oréal, quite young at this time, but more than a role model because I saw the guy and said, one day I want to do it, not to occupy something, but just to have an impact. Because especially, it's funny, five years ago it was COVID, we can discuss about that. Today, for example, with the crazy change on many topics, suddenly we need to have people with long-term vision, calm and not obsessive.
- Speaker #1
Not overexcited.
- Speaker #0
No, I'm overexcited, but I'm calm.
- Speaker #1
When things are not happening the way that you expected them to happen.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. Like in sports, it's the reason why I'm practicing a lot, because it's like in sports, you need Toot. You need to win, you need to lose, you need to stay calm, you need to cry for emotion, but you need also to keep this humanity. That is the most important.
- Speaker #1
And since you mentioned the word coach, I mean, it's a word that a lot of people use now, right? It's it has become this fashionable word.
- Speaker #0
Everybody wants to be a coach.
- Speaker #1
It's a word that comes from sports. But to you, and especially you are a coach, what is a good coach? that really makes an impact.
- Speaker #0
It's funny because I want to thank you for that. You told us that you started with that. A Laurelian manager is somebody who is able to do a lot of things by his own. So you're asking to the team and finally say okay I'm going to do it. A coach is something is helping others to do. What is complicated for traditional Laurelian who are super entrepreneur and now for me a good coach is somebody is helping you think but It's a super long journey. But if you're asking me, it's funny because when I did this training, it was five years ago, six years ago now, and because it lasts a year, and in this training, you have to help somebody for free. And I came to a young, powerful woman and said, I'm going, are you okay? To test on you. And so I did that on somebody who is today the first woman who is leading a McKinsey in France. So I think that more than coaching her, my main quality is to detect the talent. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
absolutely.
- Speaker #0
That's my main driver. What is funny about that, because everybody thinks that he knows. Yeah. And it's something you need absolutely to accept that it's complicated, but you need to be curious enough to. to meet real people.
- Speaker #1
What is curiosity for you?
- Speaker #0
This question is... you know i i have this image it's also antenna i used to say that male are absolutely bad at that so they need to be super close to you he said please and and women are able sometimes so i try yes i try to have people like hand where i bought at 10 meters to
- Speaker #1
feel something and not to be in your face you know when i step on stage in a huge conference be there 50, 100 or 2,500 people, I can sense if the audience is in a good mood, if the audience is afraid, if they are super scared, if they are funny, if they are positive or if they're negative. You can tell it.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. But I've been trained because I did in 1987, I did a French election campaign. And I learned a lot about that. With whom? With Raymond Barre. He passed away, he was a social democrat. And I did the campaign but I used to do meetings with thousands of people. And one of the learnings is to start the meeting in the back, in order to observe the crowd, to understand the feeling and the mood of the people. But I fully agree with you, it's possible to cap if you want. But if you know I'm a star or I know better, I don't need it. So some people they have no any curiosity, so they have no... any antenna in order to detect this kind of weak signal, because we are animals. Even if I have a tie, we are well-educated, we are animals. So like animals, we need, and we are social animals, we need others, I need to see you, you need to flirt. There is many emotions due to the connection between human.
- Speaker #1
what Jane Goodall by the way teaches all the time, you know the famous lady. And I met her when I was 13 years old. We spent time in Tanzania and she told me we humans are like animals. So what you say it just resonates so much. I remember when I entered during the time when I was with L'Oréal way back 25 years ago I started. There were leaders who were really tough, who were even feared for their very strong...
- Speaker #0
Not feared because it was personal. This generation of people, they're not speaking about your ideas, they're speaking about you. So immediately after five minutes, they are not okay. It's an attack. It's an attack. Recently I was in a meeting, it was obvious, why suddenly? you are not respecting, you are attacking personally. There is no any interest, but I think it's a question of generation.
- Speaker #1
I think at least this is really something that I remember well. There were some leaders people were afraid of before they had to present their products, their plans, their strategies. And you know, oh my God, what is going to happen? At this time, Lindsay Owen Jones, he was the CEO. There was this confrontation room.
- Speaker #0
Confrontation is good. Confrontation of ideas. I think it's good. The question is how? If suddenly it's becoming personal because you are confronting an idea, but if suddenly I say, Mikaela, your idea is a piece of shit, we can discuss.
- Speaker #1
But it can hurt. Okay,
- Speaker #0
okay. No, it can hurt, but we can discuss about the idea. But if moving from your idea is not a good one to you, you are stupid because these ideas came from you. That's the problem. The problem is not. It's fantastic to exchange. I disagree. I agree. I understand. I don't understand. I want. I don't know. It's great for me. One of the qualities of Lauriane is the ability to say no. Yes. But the problem is if suddenly I'm moving from your idea is not the right one because it's not only my emotion that we can discuss but you because your idea is not the right one. You are stupid. That's a problem.
- Speaker #1
That hurts.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, clearly. And it was directly not a conversation about the idea but about you. Yeah. The problem is that you are feeling suddenly completely attacked.
- Speaker #1
This is something that I observed with some leaders. And when I think now, years after, I'm not sure if this kind of leadership would still work, especially with a younger generation. And that's why I would like to ask you the question, like looking, you know, 20, 25 years back and today, in which way has leadership changed? so that it can work and be also motivating and engaging because in the end that's what...
- Speaker #0
There's only one way. Even some of these guys are harsh, but some are harsh with nobody behind them. I use the image of the NATO standards is... for the French people is very meaningful and a lot of people they love Napoléon. So it's Arcol, so there's this painting in the Louvre where there is Napoléon taking the flag and crossing the river in Italy in the beginning of the legends of Pont d'Arcole. So there's the legend, it's storytelling, it's marketing, it's advertising companies, it's what you want. It's it was that because it's not happening that way. But anyway, everybody for a lot of of the world that have this image. And I used to say, guys, in the old model, The problem is I'm able to find a lot of ambitious people taking the flag and crossing the river. The problem is not that. It's if you are so unmanageable that it's your camp that are going to kill you in your back and not the people in front of you. The question is who is going to kill you first? Because if you are, the question is the aim. So some of these leaders, I worked with them, some are fascinating. This Patrick was able to speak about Goethe. when we are in Germany or Shakespeare in England or crossing.
- Speaker #1
I was in a park in Korea.
- Speaker #0
The guy was able to tell you essence of essence of trees. So super cultivated. So it's clear that it was fascinating and some people are following even if the guy was super harsh. So it's more the quality of the people. But it's clear that he lost probably connection with people because sometimes it was so harsh, people... They are okay to follow on that. For me, even the new generation, the question is not new, old generation. The question is what is the aim? What is the sense of purpose? What is going to happen with me? Oh, I'm going to be respected as an individual? Oh, they don't care because they think that finally they don't need me. So we need everybody and we have to respect everybody. And I think it's not evident for people. It's the reason why for Islam. Often I explain to my team, we need to be strong with the strong and weak with the weak. And a lot of companies are doing the contrary. They are super strong with the weak and super weak with the strong. It's a question of complacency. It's a question. So for me, it's a question of demanding to explain precisely what those rules are and after to help people and not to help some of them because I love them or because they like me or because I know them, because I'm proud of them. No, it's to be fair. What is the most important thing is not complacent.
- Speaker #1
And adapt yourself to the type of person that is in front of you. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
For that, you need to have a lot of emotion and to be curious about yourself and not to say, guys, I'm a star. It's not existing anymore. We don't... Superheroes, it's only for Hollywood.
- Speaker #1
Superheroes, that's maybe the past.
- Speaker #0
Because it's not existing. It would be fantastic. It's like in Disney, it's a conversation I had with my...
- Speaker #1
Don't young people want to be the superheroes with all the social media? And what is your observation?
- Speaker #0
My observation is, you know, when I'm discussing, because during many years I've been in charge of talent acquisition, when we are discussing about generation, I used to do this exercise, to close your eyes, to be with me in Paris in 1830. In a theater, there is a battle in the street. And because why? Because it's the first, it's the premiere of Hernani from Victor Hugo. It's the beginning of the Romantism. I can tell you that it's more something that is going to change the world than an iPhone 16 which is going not to change anything. Okay, so I think that it's not a question of generation, it's a question of context. So what does it mean to jump? in Saint-Mère-l'Église during the night of the 5th of the 6th, June 1944. Do you think that the young troops from America, they want to be killed on the beach at the age of 20? Nobody wants that. It's a question of what is your aim, what is your goal, what is your motivation, what is your explanation? And what we need today is more explanation. It's not only say, guys, you are going to jump and I don't want to listen.
- Speaker #1
But why and what do we expect from you? Leah. And if it's clear,
- Speaker #0
people are able to follow you. If not, they don't want.
- Speaker #1
So the leadership recommendation that I hear out from you is be more clear with the younger people on the purpose of their job, of what is expected from you, and then they do it.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. Like others.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, like others.
- Speaker #0
Need explanation.
- Speaker #1
More pedagogy, maybe.
- Speaker #0
Yes, more. Not because they are weak and we are strong. No, just because people. it's for me part of the... You might not dissay, it's totally normal that people are more educated and they are going to be more and more educated. And it's a fantastic advantage. I need to have some educated and the rest are going to follow.
- Speaker #1
Which also means that with more educated people, we need also more educated leaders who can also up-level everything. Right. I can't have a leadership discussion without talking today about AI, artificial intelligence. In which way do you think, do you feel already that artificial intelligence, of course, is touching everybody of us, all of the companies? How might it impact leadership?
- Speaker #0
I think it's going to help because suddenly you have more capabilities. But I think it's also able to add things that we need. My concern is more the fact that we are hyper-solicitated. We are going to be more. So my concern is more about the health of the people because we are receiving so many information. So artificial intelligence is going to help us to do more. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Where is the barrier?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, where is the barrier? Because now we are able to have more capability. At the difference of some bank or big consulting firm told us, season. The question is always... topic for me. Why suddenly this new idea came and immediately it's going to kill 300 million jobs, 60 million. Why just to say it's going to help a lot of us? Yeah. It's enough.
- Speaker #1
Fully agree on that. I know this is always a tricky question, but I still ask it to you. When you look back to your career, what are you proud of?
- Speaker #0
I'm not the type of people who are proud of something.
- Speaker #1
I know, that's why I anticipated
- Speaker #0
But there can be something new. Something new. I'm coming from the middle working class. My mother is not there, my grandmother neither. But I think that if they imagine that one day I will become this person doing a lot of things for male, female, rebalancing the poor, I think it's related also to these two fantastic women. She had been super inspirational for me. And probably, I'm not missing proud of something, but they had been very proud of me. I mean, recently I received many honors. It's not for me. It's for...
- Speaker #1
But there is something I think you can be proud of because you were one of the first to initiate this idea of diversity and inclusion. And I think you correct me, it was in the year 2000, that you initiated the Department of Diversity and Inclusion in a time where this word was not at all in companies. Today, it's a different story.
- Speaker #0
It's funny because I used to say I've been lucky to be one of the first, and if I need I will be one of the last.
- Speaker #1
But why already at this time was this important to you?
- Speaker #0
Because it's humanity. It's clear that it's also due to meetings and I realized that it's impossible not to rebalance the power between men and women. Why? I've been indicated in the chart where there's a lot of jurisprudence about the fact that it is more or less normal that women are less paid and finally why? What is the meaning behind it?
- Speaker #1
No reason.
- Speaker #0
It was the same job. And even if there is great lawyers explaining to you that for the same job is normal. No, I disagree with that.
- Speaker #1
Did you have sisters? No,
- Speaker #0
only my grandmother and my mother. And a lot of powerful women around me. Even if they are super modest and they are a sense person and they have their own boutique. No problem.
- Speaker #1
So, if I ask you the question, if you put yourself... now in the mindset of the age of my daughter, she's 10, and you would have to give an advice to little Jean-Claude.
- Speaker #0
So it will be everything. Everything is possible. There is two good news. First, everything is possible. There's a fantastic good news is related to you. There is a super bad news is also related to you. So that's it.
- Speaker #1
So basically take responsibility.
- Speaker #0
You're sad. Don't complain. Yeah, do it.
- Speaker #1
Do it.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It's you.
- Speaker #1
So do it. Jean-Claude, thank you so much for this very authentic, as always, exchange, for showing us what you think about leadership. And I also wanted to thank you for accepting to write the preface of my leadership book, The Power of Relational Intelligence, because I think knowing you, you really incarnate relational intelligence, this cohesion of people in all of their diversity. no matter their age, no matter their gender.
- Speaker #0
I use this opportunity to thank you, to thank also Nadege, because she's going to help me to do this preface.
- Speaker #1
If you loved this episode, please write your comments. That's also very inspiring for everybody, for the whole community. If you have people in your environment where you think they can really profit and grow from all of those recommendations that we have heard, together with jean-claude and also other leaders that i had the pleasure to interview already share this episode share also the podcast luxury leadership talks you know it's filmed on youtube it's also accessible on all of the podcast platforms and Of course, subscribe so that you're not going to miss the next episode. It's already in the starting blocks and I'm not yet talking and telling you who it's going to be our next leader. Until then, take care and see you soon. Goodbye.
