#128 Starry Nights and Soulless Office: Jim and Sander on Van Gogh, Corporate Dementors, and the Art of Mastery

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Welcome to Mastering Agility. If you want to listen to authentic conversations with the most inspiring guests, find like-minded people in the Mastering Agility Discord community, or both online and face-to-face events, this is the platform for you. Grab a drink, sit back and join professional Scrum trainers, Sander Doerr, Jim Sammons, and their guests in an all new episode.
Speaker #1
Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. And hey Jim, for once in the ZVL studio.
Speaker #2
I know this place is beautiful and I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker #1
It's wild, isn't it?
Speaker #2
It brings back memories as I was telling you to a company I used to work with or work at like six, seven years ago. And it's so inspiring to be in a place like this. And like my creative juices are flowing there. They're spilling out. There's so much creative juices when I get to be in a space like this.
Speaker #1
Right. And we just drove here. You mentioned you went to the Van Gogh Museum. How is that to be in a place like that?
Speaker #2
You know, I don't know how other people go to museums. I find myself being very reflective. And I find that when I talk to people after the fact, they're like, so how did you like this museum or that museum or this thing? And I'm like, I take away really different things than many people do. So, you know, when we walked in, I would say I was obviously aware of Vincent Van Gogh. I was a fan, but I just started seeing. the type of things I'm passionate about everywhere. So here, I'll give you an example. There's a really popular viral Neil deGrasse Tyson short recently about... The interviewer asked him who was the most prolific, I think it was scientist or science mind in Neil's opinion. And he said, hands down without fail, it's Isaac Newton. And he rattled off all these things that Newton did. He ends and I'm sorry to ruin the punchline if you all haven't seen it is and then he turned 26
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah,
Speaker #2
i've seen that one Well van gogh did not start painting until he's 27 Because when I hear the thing like all this stuff that somebody did by 26 and i'm sitting here as a as a 48 year Old i'm like man. I am behind i'm lazy. I mean, obviously i'm no isaac newton, but I do as I age. I don't know about you feel just time slipping away. So it was The first thing I took away from the Van Gogh Museum was, okay, he started at 27 and he only really painted for 10 years, unfortunately, because he decided to end his life. But there's other painters, other people in other professions where we might see them as one of the greats. And when you really look at their life, maybe they started late, started early, but maybe their total productive time was less than we might think.
Speaker #1
Does it really matter in that sense? Is there a race against the clock? When do you need to start in order to be successful? That comes back to the discussion that we've had multiple times in this podcast. What does success mean? And to me, there's nothing else to success than the achievement of your goals. And if they're low goals, they're low goals. If you achieve them, you're successful, which is fine. But like when we talk about age like this in this form, it feels like there is a certain deadline that we have to make or like you have to start so early so that by the time that you're 50 or 60 or 70, you know, you've achieved X and Y.
Speaker #2
I hope you're right. I want to believe that you're right. I want to subscribe to your newsletter. That is a healthy way of seeing things. And I've said on here many times before, you are mentally healthier than I am. But I struggle to think like I have goals and many of my goals have been the same since I was young, like since I was 10, 12. Many are new and I worry that I'm going to find or evolve in such a way that a goal or something really passionate becomes important to me and I'm unable to do it. Either from just the act of growing old or time or space or be like, if I had known this. Now, I know what you're going to say. You're probably going to say, well, but you can't look backwards. You can't, you know, the rear view mirror shows you where you're going. The windshield shows you where you're going. And I get that. But yeah, I mean, I'd be lying if I said this, you know, celebrating a birthday and then walking through the life's work of somebody and all that doesn't worry me, right? Like, because something, another area you and I... differ in is I enjoy being good at something. Right? Like... I have friends who are, maybe they're making a physical item or maybe they're writing or maybe they're into decoration, like interior design. And they're okay with not being great currently and they're okay with never being great. That bothers me.
Speaker #1
Does that bother you for you or for them?
Speaker #2
Oh, it doesn't bother me for them. It used to. Like, I used to be the type of person who, I wouldn't, okay, I'm not going to say I don't judge others, but. I would say I would not think less of somebody who is not good at something. But I love the act of learning and I love the act of mastery. And, you know, if you think about Dan Ping's autonomy, mastery, purpose, right? Like, I totally see all three of those in myself. And I don't let, like, I'm never going to play the guitar like Eddie Vedder or Marcus Mumford. But I surely would like to say I'm capable and competent, right? Like I think I've said on here before, I know I've said it to you is I don't know what I want to be, but I know what I don't want to be. And what I don't want to be is one thing, right? So no one is good at everything. No one's even capable or competent at everything. But yeah, I don't know. How do you see it? If you break me down, if I lay on your couch, and there's a lot of couches around here, if I go lay on the couch, how would you psychoanalyze what I just said?
Speaker #1
I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily psychoanalyze. I just have an endless curiosity. So if you don't... Let's start with what are these goals?
Speaker #2
What goals do you have? I want to write a book. Okay. Hands down, I want to have a book. And not just any book. Like I want... All I really care about, and I don't even... have a domain in mind. I just want to be proud of it. I've been a lifelong reader. I'm a firm believer that all leaders are readers, but not all readers are leaders. And because I enjoy consuming the written word my whole life, I want to produce something. And I do know that that is probably what some experts would call an immortality project, right? We've talked about this. There's a certain calmness of... That can come from saying, I put something into the world that is going to outlive me. And physical copies of your book may fall off the face of the planet in a few years, but no one will ever be able to take that away. Somewhere, somewhere, there's going to be a little citation of you and Ryan Brooke, right? So that's one.
Speaker #1
That's funny that you mentioned that specifically, because initially, when we just started writing the book, this is where, to me, the concept or the idea of bringing that forward, just bringing that to... fruition actually emerges as well. I want to have something that's semi-tangible that's almost proof that I've been here even beyond when I die. And that was in there in the beginning. We want to have something tangible that is still here when we leave this planet. And then we used the Discord community to give us feedback on one very adamant statement that kept coming back. This is too depressing, basically, for the rest of the tone of the book. So we took that out, but it resonates with me what you're saying.
Speaker #2
Yeah. So that's one. This is going to sound easy. I would like to develop a product, a physical product. And it could be as simple as a coaster. Or today I took a picture at the art museum of basically this little felt thing that hangs on a doorknob. And it's like a place to put your bookmark, a small paperback book, your reading glasses, or a remote control or something. And I'm like, so simple, not innovative. Um, people have been hanging things on doorknobs for hundreds and thousands of years, right? But I just like to have something physical that I can sell and that someone gives me money for, even if it's just 10 euro. And even if I sell 10 of them, like, because I know that that experience because of what you and I do for a living will be extremely enlightening because you'll have to think about pricing. You'll have to think about marketing. You'll have to think about payments, you know. That will either tell me, I don't want to do this again. But what I think it will do is it's going to be like, ooh, I want to do this more.
Speaker #1
Now, guess my follow-up question.
Speaker #2
What's stopping you from doing it? I know. You ask that question all the time.
Speaker #1
And again, what is stopping you?
Speaker #2
And audience, I will tell you how I feel when he asked me this question. I love that you asked me because when he stares in your eyes, those deep, murky eyes. You can tell he genuinely cares, right? And he genuinely wants to do it. But here's my tip to you. It feels like the fact that you said, guess my response and I guess right, tells me it's an automatic response from you. Find a way to do it to people that feels a little more personal, right? Because again, I'm not trying to change you because I love that you're doing it.
Speaker #1
Listening.
Speaker #2
But when I talk to people like you or other people in our industry or my coach, Alex, many times you all will ask the right question of me or have the right... Okay, right's the wrong word. But you'll have a very productive response or question. But my brain can't get past the delivery mechanism. Okay. Right? And I'm not saying this about you in this instance. But my coach, Alex, I will say, dude, stop coaching me. Because it's so obvious. He'll be like, yeah, what do you want out of it? Yeah, what do you want out of it?
Speaker #1
No, no, I'll ask you a different question. I appreciate the feedback, buddy. Yeah. Where are you going to start?
Speaker #2
Yeah. So today, I texted my friend Adam, who is a very prolific writer. In his own right, he's published. It's not Adam that you're going to find on the shelves at Barnes & Noble yet. And I said, I think I... Because he asked me. I reached out to him when I had the idea for a... A... a less businessy book, a more kind of just like philosophical or theoretical book. Would you like to partner? And he said, yeah, absolutely. I said, I think I just got hit by a Mack truck of inspiration. Does this title and concept resonate with you? And I'm waiting here back. He's probably just barely waking up right now. But even if he says no, I'm still going to. Pull on that thread a little bit. See if it goes anywhere. I might get home and lose the high of this travel and be like, yeah, I'm not interested in that anymore. And I think that's okay. Right? Like I tell everybody, a good idea at the wrong time, that happens to everybody. A good idea at a good time, that's ideal. So I don't know. We'll see. But I would say what I have already mentally started or not mentally and literally started doing is. capturing a list of people that I would want to research and tell stories about. Because that's the other thing I like about books, right? Like you and Ryan's book is a certain type of book, and it goes to a certain type of audience. And I love that type. I have bookshelves of that type of book. There are other types of books that you can tell the author. And if you read like the little synopsis on the back, the author was not an expert in the topic before they started writing it. But something... Something encouraged Ken Burns to go look at the US military or World War II or whatever. And then if you read, he spent years immersing himself in that, interviewing countless of people, all that. That part of the job feels so awesome to me. And I'm sure every aspiring writer out there is like, well, yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Of course, it would be great to be paid to travel the world, meet some of your heroes and interview interesting people. So I know I'm not new to have that thought. But... To me, that's the selling point of maybe writing a slightly different type of book. But do you ever see yourself doing something like that? Here, let me give it to you as a more constrained question. If I were to tell you your next book must be something other than a professional-leaning book in the domain that you're an expert in, what would you want to write about?
Speaker #1
And why? That's going to be the constraint. Oh, that's a good question. I never thought about that. Because to me, like the whole, my whole profession and the things I discuss about in class vary widely. So there's always going to be a, like a connection to the work that I do. Some, a question that I feel is a recurring one. that I teach people or that I discuss with people in my classes and also in consulting, etc. that is not necessarily tied to whatever framework or whatever product management, whatever we're doing, is what makes you happy. And I think that would be a very interesting way to think for people and to be educated or to educate themselves a little bit more on what truly makes them happy. Because, again, it never comes back into our work, our education, the way that we were brought up. It never is an exaggeration, but it's still something that too few people truly think about. What makes me happy? What do I need to do? And is the thing that I'm doing right now, does that make me happy or not? Do I get value? Do I bring home more energy than I bring to the office? And that is something that is so intangible for many people. I would like to help people get to that point a little bit faster, hopefully, and just poke them with questions that they... could ask themselves to figure out, is this meaningful to me? Does this help? Like, am I doing my job in a different, for something else than just paying the bills?
Speaker #2
Yeah. You are objectively good at what you do. Like, I'm not going to just kiss your ash and say that because I got to watch people interact with you in Finland and there was genuine, like you had a small line, a medium-sized line at one point, right? Do you think being good at what you do and taking pride in what you do, does it make you a better person? Does it make you a better life partner? Does it make you a better father?
Speaker #1
I would like to say yes, because it brings me joy. And therefore, it's easier to interact with me, I would say, whether that's in the office or outside or at home. Imagine the opposite side. If I leave my job, completely frustrated, annoyed, pissed at that stupid manager that's always nagging my shit, you know, the micromanager. If I come home with that attitude, I will rub that off on my family. Right? So in that sense, it would make me, I would say it makes me a better partner that I truly enjoy what I'm doing because I bring home that energy as well. And those are lessons that I can bring to my kids.
Speaker #2
So, Think back to a time, not in the too distant past, where you had a bad day. Tell me when you have it in your head.
Speaker #1
I honestly cannot recall that. The only thing that comes close to having a bad day is just having way too much work. Fair. For a continuous period.
Speaker #2
Okay. So put yourself mentally back there just for a second. Don't wallow in it. What would your family say or the people closest to you? I'll just leave it open. Have said back then. about what you were just saying. Like basically you're saying by being good at what you do and having pride in what you do, that carries over into your home life. So what would the opposite look like for you?
Speaker #1
The opposite of doing or bringing home the joy.
Speaker #2
Like when you were like, it could just be simple as having a bad day or it could be a prolonged amount of burnout. How would that manifest itself? You know, like on a Saturday with your kids or would it? Or are you able to compartmentalize those two things?
Speaker #1
really clearly uh if it takes too long if i continue that mentality too long it will drain my energy and therefore also my patience with my kids so something i really cannot stand i love my kids to death but like screaming and yelling i i do not take that shit well it just annoys like it sits with me in my brain and i really don't like that so then the moment that they start screaming i will be super annoyed right away and try to push that down you And if I have a group week, if I'm not that fatigued, I have a lot higher tolerance for those kind of things than when I'm super tired and everything irritates me. So that is something that I then also bring to my kids, you know, that they will start tiptoeing around me just because that's an exaggeration, but that they would have to pay a lot more attention to my mood rather than... I facilitate their mood. And that's not what I think a parent should be.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Do you think in the long term, like 10, 20 years from now, people looking back would be like, oh, I could tell that those couple years, I could tell you were burned out. Yes. Okay.
Speaker #1
Because I've had a burnout, right? Right. At that point, definitely people are telling me like... you're heading to a burnout i see the signs i was like no why burnouts are for the week not for me like i'm not one of those weak people that was my mentality back then honestly and i really thought that would never happen to me and then two weeks later i fainted on my way walking to work but i always thought like this is something that's never going to happen to me like i am unbeatable right right uh you
Speaker #2
Is that a man thing or is that just a human thing?
Speaker #1
I think that's a human thing, but I think men still have that more because of the perception of being weak. And that could be either culture, that could be self-perception, that could be taught. My therapist always calls the generation before ours the silent generation that never were taught to talk about their feelings. So if you don't know how to deal with that, you'll suck up everything and that's going to destroy you from the inside. And therefore, that's going to... exacerbate the pace of burnout yeah and you know that's that's hard to discuss then even if if so coming back to your question is that a man thing I think it has been created to be a man thing but it's not limited to we just like men are just in general I feel trying to be more macho yeah and hide it and then you know that is a negative spiral yeah Both Jim and I are experienced consultants and trainers. Therefore, we know how important it is for organizations to have the fundaments in place before delivering high-value products. And this starts with understanding the theory behind whatever framework, method, or process organizations apply. And this... is where Xebia comes in. Xebia is a pioneering software engineering and IT consultancy company transforming and executing at the intersection of domain and technology to create digital leaders for our people, clients, partners, and communities. As a gift for our Mastering Agility audience, they provided us with a discount code MA10 when signing up for their open enrollment classes to get 10% off. Go to xebia.com slash academy to find the entire curriculum of courses that is Xebia xebia.com slash academy to find all their courses.
Speaker #2
I saw today our colleague, Jamie Kriegel, who I think you know better than I, created kind of a new personas of some small cartoon type figures to talk about common patterns and behaviors. And Barry and Christian with the Liberators have done some awesome work over the years in this. I came up with a new one in Finland. do tell my my what we do in the shadows uh people will get this reference is the energy vampire that person on a team or people or in a company that suck the life out of things yes right corporate dementors yes i think it goes without saying that you would agree that there are certain people who when you remove them from the team the company everybody gets better right the whole addition by subtraction yes um And I also know from being here and in other countries for the last week, week and a half, that this looks different in different countries. In Germany, for example, for the audience, because I know our podcast is listened to in like over 100 different countries. In Germany, when I was in a few years ago, I was in London and we had a German student in the class. And on a break, he asked me, is it true that in the United States, there are... You could have to pack your desk up in a box and get the F out of the building. Oh, absolutely. A hundred percent. I've done it to people. I've seen it done to others. And I go, why? He goes, we would never do that in Germany. Ever. Like it's not even legal in, I think in most or all scenarios. So what do you think leads to, like, what are some patterns you see in teams and companies that lead to... everybody can point to who the energy vampire is in the room or on the team. And I don't know. I'll just stop there. Maybe they do something about it. Maybe they don't. What do you think?
Speaker #1
People are just, I think it's, people are scared in many cases to deliver that kind of feedback. Like, this is what I see. This is how it affects me. And this is what I would need from you to change that for me. Like, it's the path of least resistance to not bring it up. and not having to deal with those consequences or not having to hurt the other people. It's easier to not do that or just go to that person's manager and say, I know you're managing Jim. He's such an energy vampire. Do something about it. Make someone else do your dirty job for you so you don't have to feel the feelings that would come along with it. I think that's the most recurring or most often recurring pattern.
Speaker #2
So they're taking the easy way out. I would say just avoiding conflict.
Speaker #1
I would say so, yeah. I mean, how many people have you seen in organizations that are just conflict-averse?
Speaker #2
Yeah, I mean, I've seen that everywhere, right? Like, I think most people, even me, I'm conflict-averse at times. People like you and I, because of our training and experience and skills and all that, may be less than others. We may be slightly more in some cases or a lot more in other instances having hard conversations. I know I have just in the last, I can think of multiple examples just in the last few months, but they're never easy. Like even, yeah, they're never easy. Right. Yeah. It's just an interesting thought. Like I'm not going anywhere with this. I don't have a big aha, except to say, you know, walking through the ZB offices. And again, this is a podcast. So just for the audience, right? There's so many books here. It's like a library. So you can tell this company learns. and that they value learning, they value reading, writing, and arithmetic, and all that stuff. So I don't think there's any book on any of the shelves here in the building that would say, oh, the best way to deal with radical candor is to not talk about it, and the best way to deal with conflict is to ignore it. I'm pretty sure the books say the exact opposite of that. So if there's decades of research, and studies, and books, and movies, and all this stuff about dealing with it, why are we still so bad at it? Or why do we still so often take the easy way out?
Speaker #1
Because I don't think it's necessarily a big part of our job to actually do that. Like we don't get rewarded to do so. We don't get properly trained or get the opportunities to apply that feedback. Unless you really deliberately and consciously choose to do so. And this is find a style that works for you and how you do that. Because some people are just super charismatic and they can deliver it basically in any way. Even they could say it as bluntly as possible that would offend many other people if they would have delivered it. But some people are just so charismatic, they can just basically do everything and deliver it in a way that would be accepted by many. There are sufficient people that I know that would have to sit down with someone, kind of massage it in or go out for a walk. And either is going to be fine, but people don't take the opportunity to become good at it. It's one of those things. It's like teaching. We were discussing on the way here that if you do a certain course. often enough, you'll learn the slides by heart. You know what's going to come next. But now compare that, like how often you do that to the amount or the frequency that you deliver feedback to someone in the way that it should be delivered, right? The amount of normal work that fits your job, like teaching, knowing the slides by heart, knowing the material, you do that so much more than delivering feedback. So you don't have the opportunity to become really good at it unless you do it beyond delivering tough messages. You can also practice feedback by saying positive stuff, giving compliments in a structured way. And then that way you'll start to own the structure of giving feedback and then you'll slowly become better at it.
Speaker #2
Yeah, for the audience's sake, one of the things we're talking about in this is in the old radio DJ days, they call it hitting the post, right? When that DJ does that beautiful, seamless transition from... Maybe speaking about something, reading the weather into like the next big hit from Pink Floyd. In the classroom setting or in the workplace setting, that can look like a lot of different things. It might mean like you've mastered the art of walking around a room facilitating a group of people. Or maybe you've got a certain way that you prep for a workshop or a session or an important meeting that just to the attendee. in the moment or after the fact just look seamless. It looked like an artist at their craft. And even when we were in Helsinki, someone came up to me and we were about to record a podcast with them. I won't out them. And they were nervous. They're like, I'm really nervous. I go, don't be. Like, how do you do this? Like, how do you just sit down and throw the headphones on and just do this? I'm like, well, maybe I suck at it. I don't get hung up about it. I believe in iterative and incremental improvements. So... if episode 127 is better than episode 100, like clearly better, I'm happy. Yeah. And I said, also, it's just repetition.
Speaker #1
It's just that, but also, I don't think it's different. Like the conversations that we have now are not necessarily different from the conversations, the way that we would converse. No. When our headphones and the mics would be off. Right. It's just having a normal conversation with decent and human interest. And that's the... the only difference between those conversations is that we're now talking into a microphone. There's cameras at us and we have headphones on. That's the only difference. Like we just have a normal conversation.
Speaker #2
Well, and the number one compliment you and I get is, man, that felt so comfortable. That felt so easy. It was just like we were sitting around a bar talking. Well, yeah, because it kind of is. But also when I ask people, what surprised you? They're like, well, in my head, as we were having this. easy conversation, I'm running through, what if they ask me about this? Don't forget to say this. If they say this, this is the right answer. I'm like, yeah, all that mental prep and load was for nothing because it might've just been like dick jokes and puns. So, but I do think comfort comes from mastery and being genuine. And that's something we've talked about in here a lot. Like if you're genuine, when you screw up, you're just gonna be like, yeah, I screwed up. Yeah.
Speaker #1
You're going to screw up regardless who you are, in what way. Like you cannot expect yourself to be a master or an expert overnight. Like right now I'm having the same idea or the same feeling with AI. Like I'm running behind on where I want to be. Like I'm definitely running behind on other people. They are a lot more knowledgeable than I am, but I want to learn more. Right. And that's like what you were just discussing. Like that mastery is something that I want to be better at.
Speaker #0
But I also don't put in the time and effort yet. So I cannot expect myself to be an instant expert tomorrow if I don't put in the effort. And even if I would put in a lot of effort today, I know I'm not going to be an expert tomorrow. I need to apply that stuff, apply the knowledge, whether that's on LLMs, on Gen AI, on gigantic AI, on the whole shebam. I need to apply that to become better and gradually better at it. It's just an unrealistic expectation. I think... That's also coming back to goals. That's where a lot of people flunk out on their goals because it takes too much time. It takes too much effort. They have to grind too long and too often and too difficultly. That's an interesting word. But sometimes things are too challenging and it just takes too much time for people to truly persevere in the achievement of their goals.
Speaker #1
Right. Microsoft just made a dollar because you said agentic AI. I had never heard that phrase until like two weeks ago. And now I think I've heard it every day for the last week. So some marketing person somewhere is like,
Speaker #0
it's a good thing. Yeah,
Speaker #1
it is. Well, and to connect this back to Van Gogh, what you see well in the museum here in Amsterdam is the growth, right? And you hear in the audio tour about how he got better. And in between painting, was talking to his peers. He was observing life. He was focusing on getting better and innovating. That's one of the other big takeaways ahead is, you know, in the world of fine art, Van Gogh was by no means one of the early ones, right? You know, in the grand scheme of things, people had been painting for shitloads of time before him. But they were finding new pigments at the time, finding new brushstrokes. types, finding new techniques, entirely new techniques, some of which he invented or mastered or whatever. But that's another thing I took away is, you know, this person that we now in hindsight see as, you know, one of the luminaries of an entire genre of art, started at 27, learned from his peers, actively sought out in spur, like all these things that apply to almost any domain. Yeah. Right? And the point there is not that anybody can be the next Van Gogh or that you should strive to be that level. But it's don't put people like this on a pedestal because they had to slog through it. And I wonder if maybe they were just born talented, right? Or could it be the way that they approached work?
Speaker #0
It's probably a little bit of both. It's the same with the idea of bodybuilding. bodybuilders get looked at. They just use steroids. So the automatic, no, that's not how that shit works. You still have to put in the effort. You still have to slave away at the gym. You still have to be super strict about your diet. It's not going to be because you put a needle up your ass that all of a sudden, bam, you're a balloon. No, you still have to put in all the effort. So even if you have a talent, you still have to do it. You still have to use it. You still have to find your way. to actually apply that stuff and become super good at what you're doing. And even with a lot of artists and painters, et cetera, some of that stuff doesn't even get appreciated until you die.
Speaker #1
I'm going to purposely be vague. Do you know what two of the funniest words to me are? Okay, don't answer that. With dimple. Hear me out. Here's the story. Yes. Okay. This is a total effing tangent. Okay. years ago, 15 years ago, I was working at a company and I was on the leadership team. So I got shared calendars from all the executives, which is no big deal, right? To share meetings. It's like, basically, we had just decided we need to show each other where we're at instead of just when we're busy so that certain things can be booked over, not booked over, right? Whatever we were inspecting and adapting, scheduling issues. I was looking at one of my colleagues' calendars and I saw this big time block and I'm like, whoa, why can't I schedule this time with them? And it was blah, blah, blah, Dr. So-and-so for chin implant dash with dimple. I don't know why, but the with dimple just, it just killed me.
Speaker #0
It's a feature.
Speaker #1
It's a feature, right? And I was literally laughing at my desk and I'm like, oh my God. I mean, the amount of vanity to take the time to type that in your own Outload calendar with Dimple as if the doctor was going to be, as if you're going to be sitting there in the chair like, oh, hey doc, by the way.
Speaker #0
Here's some acceptance criteria.
Speaker #1
Don't forget the dimple. Here's some acceptance criteria, right? Like I don't... So a friend of mine was also on this team and also the same, right? I'm like, hey, go try and schedule a meeting on this certain day with this person. And he didn't even... Like I got the little dot, dot, dot of the day that says he was IMing me in the company I am. And then it went away. And I'm like, ooh, he's writing a long message. And then he comes bursting into my office like the damn Kool-Aid man. His face is red. He's like, can you believe this? Oh, my God. And they had known each other for like 25 years. And he's like, I can't wait to bust his balls about this. It's going to be so fun. Because he put it out there for, you know, like, it's not like we snooped, right? Like, this is.
Speaker #0
I mean, if it's public, if it's in your agenda, if it's in your calendar and everyone can see it.
Speaker #1
Yes. Sorry. Total tangent about something that you said. A little bit of a squirrel brain there.
Speaker #0
Brain squirrel.
Speaker #1
Brain squirrel. Yes. Hashtag, trademark, copyright, brain squirrel. So, and where I'm going with some of this Van Gogh stuff is there's a common phrase out there that no one ever said on their deathbed, I wish I had worked more.
Speaker #0
I don't know.
Speaker #1
I've never been. What do you think of that idea, that sentence?
Speaker #0
Well, A, I cannot verify it because I'm not attending everyone's death. So, I don't know. It's an assumption.
Speaker #1
Have one of your agentic AIs comb the life's history of like, what would that be? I don't know what the Dutch word would be, but like obituary. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Great idea. And some people, let's be honest, put the bitch in obituary.
Speaker #1
Never heard that before.
Speaker #0
There you go.
Speaker #1
Is that when you're happy to see a woman pass away? Sometimes. Or a guy, I guess. Anybody could be a bitch.
Speaker #0
No. It depends on where you look at work, where you want to. put work in. I mean, if you're on your deathbed and it's about more work into your relationships and having a happier life, then yes. If it means going to the office just to slave away for corporate, then no. I don't think anyone is going to be there like, oh, I wish I would have been at a doo-doo company X being there 60 hours a week instead of four. No one's going to be saying that at all.
Speaker #1
Right. And that's where the purpose from autonomy, mastery, and purpose comes from. Like, yeah, if you're some corporate citizen living in some rabbit warren cubicle, I'm pretty sure you're going to say, yeah, I don't wish I had spent more time at work. But when you see people that truly love what they do and work doesn't feel like work or that it's rewarding at a macro level, and I don't think you're alone in the fact that the people around you benefit from... you being good at what you do and enjoying what you do. Not just because maybe you're nicer to be around, but because that passion isn't contagious. It might be lucrative. You might make good money. You might be comfortable. You might have a certain lifestyle. So I do think that there probably is some truth to the fact that loving what you do is a really good thing.
Speaker #0
I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. What makes you happy about your job? What is it that makes you do the thing that you're doing?
Speaker #1
It sounds cliche, but for me, it's really, it's two things. It's about the people, right? The connections I've made, I think it's one of my superpowers is I'm really good over time at making real connections with people, good people, people that, you know, decades in the future, I'm still friends with and consider, you know, they're on my personal Facebook and we share the ups and downs of life, right? Like to me. And I think I've said before, one of the biggest compliments I can get is people who would say, I would kill to do another project with you or I would love to work with you again. Or if you ever can hire me, I would like to me, there is no as a business person. There almost is no better compliment from a people side. The other reason I do what I do is it's kind of a little bit of like spelunking or archaeology. I am hopeful. That being good at what I do and doing what I do and putting more things in the world will somehow put me in the right place at the right time to really do something that I enjoy doing. That brings together what I'm good at doing and what I enjoy. And I was talking to a few people on a break at the conference. And one thing I mentioned to them was recycling or sustainability or permaculture. If I could find a way... to do what I do and do it well with a company like Patagonia or maybe even Doctors Without Borders or a recycling or sustainability type of initiative. And it could even be inside of a big corporate monolith that's got a societal program or an environmental impact. I think I would be the type who would happily throw themselves into that work at the expense of other things to do it well, because it's kind of like the combination of what I enjoy doing, working with people, and what I'm passionate about.
Speaker #0
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Speaker #1
What is my toilet? What are you talking about?
Speaker #0
You would be sitting there for four days. Anyway, do you ever have these days where you're like, I just have to do this so I'll get more money so I can do X faster?
Speaker #1
Yes, all the time. If you had asked me 24 hours before I boarded the plane to come over here a week and a half ago for two weeks, I would have said I would much rather be at home with my dog. my family and on my lawnmower. It's a beautiful spring at home. But I came over here knowing once I get here, I'm going to love it. I'm going to have a blast. But yeah, it pays the bills. It's just great that I have had a blast for the last week and a half doing what I enjoy and being able to benefit. But yeah, there's many days that I feel like that. One of the things we struggle with as a team, so me and the Wiser Bees team have had so much time in person in the last week and a half. And one of the things that I struggle with, and I'm open to advice on this, is at times we have to do something we would rather not do. Or we'd have to do something, teach something, coach something, help people do something in a way that we know is not ideal, but is a step towards better. And… I was naive, you know, I don't know, let's say 12 years ago when I was working at the time of seeing people who are clearly better than me and saying, why would they tell us to do it this way? They have to know this is dumb or this isn't the point. Like, how many times have you and I heard like, that's not the point of agility or that's not scrum. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But y'all ain't ready for whatever that is. Like, I've said a lot on here and I'll shut up talking in just a second. It's like. One of the ways to encourage people to get better is to show them what's possible. So I don't like the phrase, meet people where they are. If you meet people where they are, it's too easy for all of us to be like, well, if this is good enough for them, I guess it's good enough for me, right? Like that's easy. So I like to meet people a little bit away, a little bit, half step, a step from where they're at and take them on field trips, whether a digital field trip or... literal field trip and say this is what the next level could look like or this is what two levels higher could be i have unequivocally had nothing but good luck with that with that that technique but what
Speaker #0
do you think i totally agree with that this is necessary because uh i hate the term meet them where they're at as well but um this kind of compares to i've been doing kickboxing in the past for let's say 10 years and when I started training, I always wanted to do matches, like do kickboxing matches. I've been in training to do matches. Ultimately, I never did them, but you know. If I would be there, like start and just learn the basic movements and positioning and defense, etc. And then I still cannot go into like the scrum, like the picture perfect scrum world of kickboxing and do these matches and go into the ring. I still need to learn how to take a hit, how it feels to take a hit, what it feels the day after to take a hit. And I can tell you that shit hurts. It really hurts. when you get like someone's shinbone against your face. But first you have to take the first step oddly. And that starts with taking like these pads against your legs and have them kicked. And even though it's foam that's like 20 centimeters thick, it will still hurt if you kick in the right way. But you cannot take a hip from one day to the other if it's such a big difference between where you're at right now and where you want to be. Even so, if your coach sees like... They want to be there. But first, we have to train them to do marginal increases so they feel the consequences. They feel how that goes. They build the muscle memory and then slowly start to progressively become better. But you cannot do that from one day to another, even though you see the potential and you want to have them running, but they cannot even crawl yet. They need to have the basic momentum, the basic motion to get there. And that's something that made me think about what you just said.
Speaker #1
How do you feel about when someone says... hey, I'm on board with getting better, with continuous improvement. But whoa, man, you got to dial back your expectations. It's going to take a long time. Maybe you think it's already taking too long. And they're trying to convince you or sell you on the idea that you're still asking or expecting way too much. Not of yourself. This wouldn't really apply to yourself, but of others maybe.
Speaker #0
I think it's a combination of two things I would follow that remark with. A would be, all right, then you better prepare your budget, dude. That's one. Because if it's going to take longer for me to do it, then it's going to take you more money to invest. And also, I think that is making it a little bit too comfortable for yourself. Not from you as a consultant perspective, but more from the client. Like, eh, kind of massages that into, just go easy on us. No, I'm here to do a job. I'm here to make you effective. And that's not going to happen. If I always just sit with you and hold your hand, I'm like, oh, poor baby. No. Sometimes you're going to be uncomfortable. Sometimes you're going to hate me. And sometimes you wish you never started this. And that's good because that's how you grow.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
What do you think?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you said. I found myself recently saying kind of a riff on the, if it's too loud, you're too old. thing of saying, I can go faster and there is a lot more we can do, but I am also taking the lead from the client, right? Part of being a consultant, part of being a coach is allowing the coachee, the consultee to set the pace. But there is a concept in coaching called pace, pace, lead, right? And it really goes to speaking. Like, and what this is talking about and where I first heard about this was in like conflict de-escalation. So part of one of the techniques in conflict de-escalation is if somebody is just super agitated, talking to them in really quiet, soft voice, that is the wrong thing in most people, for most people. So pace, pace, lead means you meet them where they're at. So if they're loud, you're loud. If they're frustrated, you're frustrated. It doesn't mean you argue with them. It doesn't mean you also start screaming. But it's meeting them where they are and kind of then changing it. And that can go up or down. Like if you're trying to motivate or encourage somebody to want more, to be more, to run faster, to do something, it could be pace, pace, lead, like to pull. And in conflict de-escalation, it can be to decrease from a level four conflict down to a level three. And I see that a lot at work and in my personal life. And I think some people do that naturally. Some people probably have learned how to do that, but it's a technique. It frustrates me to, when I know that people are smart enough, they're capable enough, they're able to do more. And I do, I know this might sound bad, everybody, but I'm going to admit it. It does frustrate me sometimes when people that I care about doing work that I am passionate about and that they're passionate about set the bar too low. Right?
Speaker #0
Then what do you do?
Speaker #1
Still figuring it out. Like I don't have a strategy. I can't create you a one page or a one slider on how I do it. But I would say some of the things I do is showing them what good could look like. Taking them to another company, showing them an article, a case study, or just a person that maybe has been where they're at and has improved or grown. I do sometimes what you said, which is asking like, what's the cost of going slow? or going slower. And I'm not even just talking about dollars and cents. Because sometimes, you know, I used to work for a big blue company and they used to talk a lot about, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jim, but that's just blue dollars. I don't know if you've heard this over here, but blue dollars just means it's internal money. It's cross-charging. It's a cost center. And maybe it is, it turns into green money somewhere. It turns into real money, but they're so removed from that. It's just, it's spreadsheet money. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, but it's still time. Like, and it's even if it's blue dollars, it's still it comes off the blue budget, the internal budget, which means you may have less internal dollars to spend on something else. So it's still kind of real, even though it might not come out of their literal pocket. So the cost is, OK, you want me to go slower? You want to take six months to learn taps? Fine. What's that going to do to your arc as a musician? But it's harder when it's work. Like, you know, what's it going to do to the arc of your product? Yeah, whatever. I don't care. I can't say. Who knows? How could anyone know? I'm like, yeah, I know. And that's the problem is many things you don't know until you have hindsight. And then you're like, oh, shit. I wish we had started doing this two years ago. Yeah.
Speaker #0
No shit. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Sometimes to come full circle to the energy vampires. Pulling somebody out of your team can be the impetus to go faster. Or sometimes hiring a single person is what I've seen has totally sparked any of these things. Interest, passion, engagement, whatever. One of the best things that I've seen multiple teams do is hire a test automation person. Because, okay, let's say you got a team of six people and they're great. engineers or maybe they're sort of full stacky, but then they hire somebody who has a skill set that's been lacking. Or maybe they hire a domain expert, like an automation, test automation expert. And that person's like, what the hell are y'all doing? We're going to make this a lot better real fast. And we probably all know those Herculean type people who can just... pick something up and put it on their proverbial shoulders and move it forward like without even being told to do it without being bribed just because they know it's what's needed and it's is what they want to do yes
Speaker #0
and then it feels again so natural and like this it's it's as if these people never had to practice you know it looks like from the from the outside like this is just a god-given talent and you don't have to do anything for it Like the bodybuilders of coaching.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Hey, let's start slowly bringing this one home. Let's pull up ChatGPT.
Speaker #1
Oh, we get to answer the ChatGPT question today? Okay. Can we create our own agent? What if we had a mastering agility agent that just was a powerful question prompt?
Speaker #0
Oh.
Speaker #1
Hashtag product idea.
Speaker #0
Let's see. Hey,
Speaker #1
everybody. While he's looking this up, I'm going to leave you with something I wrote in my phone. A quote from Van Gogh in a letter to his brother. And this stuck with me. I mean, to the point where I stopped and wrote it. It says, I still hope not to work for myself alone. And I think that's a really interesting quote. And the backstory, and please still go give the museum your money, is he took time to create a painting for his newborn nephew, who was also named Vincent, was named after him. And the museum I'm walking through was actually opened by Vincent van Gogh, but not the painter, but by his nephew. And in this letter, he's basically, what I interpret from this and infer from this is, I'm doing this thing that I love for my nephew. But it's, you know, I want my work to be for other people. Right? Yeah. Inspiring.
Speaker #0
It is.
Speaker #1
Because what you and I do is not for us. Like there is some amount of selfish pursuits in it, right? Like I'm not saying we do it as a nonprofit. But we normally do things for the benefit of others.
Speaker #0
Yes. That's true.
Speaker #1
Even this podcast is not for us. Like you and I could have this conversation we have without the mics on.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And also we're not making any money out of this.
Speaker #1
No.
Speaker #0
So we're definitely not doing it. Anyway, coming back to ChatGPT.
Speaker #1
Yes, ChatGPT.
Speaker #0
What assumption am I making that if challenged could open up new possibilities?
Speaker #1
Oh my. gosh, what assumption are you making? I would say, I mean, wow, something doesn't come to mind, but I would say one of the things that I think I hear from you is how busy you are. And I think you're making an assumption, maybe, that you're going to burn out. And that you don't enjoy being busy could be an assumption. And that, or maybe that you don't have enough time to do something. And I don't know. I'm guessing a little bit at some of these, but, um, Ryan Brooke gave you a phenomenal compliment just to me, not to you. So he might get a little upset that I tell you is he's like, he credits you and your tenacity with, with, with finishing the book because, um, you know, you know, we're all working on some initiatives. And we all have the things we're good at. We all have the things we're not good at. We all have our things, right? But, and I've joked with you and busted your chops many times about, you know, brain squirrels and all that stuff. But folks, it's also paired with tenacity, right? So just to compliment for you. So I guess those would be my answers about your assumptions. So, all right, tell me, hit me with it. What assumptions am I making that are limiting me somehow?
Speaker #0
First one, thank you. Thank you for giving me that.
Speaker #1
Well, thank Ryan, but you're welcome.
Speaker #0
And thank you for giving that. I think you, from earlier in this conversation, like the assumption that you're almost too old to start these kinds of things. I think it's, I get it, but I also think it's nonsense. Look at Colonel Sanders. He didn't start KFC until he was in his 60s.
Speaker #1
Can we use someone else for me to aspire to? Okay, I get it. It's another point.
Speaker #0
yes fair point so i think that's that's the thing if if you want to do this do this and there's nothing no one's stopping you but you and i know this is that's an open door as well but don't assume that your
Speaker #1
goals are going to fade out because i know they're just going to continue to stack yeah i need to i need to ruin my my goal tree a little bit right and get rid of some that maybe are not important enough anymore. And maybe they've been replaced by new things that are more important.
Speaker #0
I would say refine your idea backlog. Terrible way to end the show. All right. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Love it. As always, you too. Thank you.
Speaker #2
That is all for today. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, let us know by hitting that like button, share it with friends and colleagues, sharing a message on LinkedIn, joining our warm and welcoming Discord community, or attend recordings as a virtual audience. You can find all the relevant links in the show notes. We hope you'll tune back in for the next episode of the Mastering Agility podcast.

About Mastering Agility

Why is it that products are so hard to develop and deliver?

How can we truly deliver value with so many different variables that can affect the outcome?

We are Sander Dur and Jim Sammons, professional consultants and trainers who support organizations in their pursuit of creating valuable products. Passionate about helping the community and practitioners apply the theory many authors and thought leaders bring to the industry, we started this podcast to make these concepts more accessible.

This podcast will change your career and organization. You’ll be entertained while learning about the industry’s leaders and other practitioners, and you’ll feel familiar with the situations discussed as we invite guests over and discuss tools, concepts, models, metrics, leadership, frameworks, and many more elements that help you deliver amazing products.

Both of us understand the many struggles, challenges, antipatterns, and dysfunctions many of us face in our daily working lives. We are here to provide actionable advice and strategies for you to create continuous improvement. You will find things that actually work for many organizations, as we and our guests have tried and tested them.

You will find a goldmine of actionable information from many fields, including the space industry, Formula 1, psychology, and Silicon Valley’s top entrepreneurs. We break down these complex topics into easily digestible insights that you can start applying in your careers right away. The best part is that you can even join our live recordings to ask your most burning questions and get them answered based on your needs!

We dive deep into the world of business agility, product discovery, delivery, validation, product management, and product frameworks like Scrum, Kanban, LeSS, and many more. We’ll explore the benefits of decentralized decision-making, autonomous empowered teams, leadership, and much more. We empower you with the information you need to become the leaders your organization deserve.

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About Mastering Agility

Why is it that products are so hard to develop and deliver?

How can we truly deliver value with so many different variables that can affect the outcome?

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

They also tackle workplace dynamics, including how to deal with energy vampires on teams, giving and receiving feedback effectively, and staying authentic even when the work gets tough.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Welcome to Mastering Agility. If you want to listen to authentic conversations with the most inspiring guests, find like-minded people in the Mastering Agility Discord community, or both online and face-to-face events, this is the platform for you. Grab a drink, sit back and join professional Scrum trainers, Sander Doerr, Jim Sammons, and their guests in an all new episode.
Speaker #1
Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. And hey Jim, for once in the ZVL studio.
Speaker #2
I know this place is beautiful and I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker #1
It's wild, isn't it?
Speaker #2
It brings back memories as I was telling you to a company I used to work with or work at like six, seven years ago. And it's so inspiring to be in a place like this. And like my creative juices are flowing there. They're spilling out. There's so much creative juices when I get to be in a space like this.
Speaker #1
Right. And we just drove here. You mentioned you went to the Van Gogh Museum. How is that to be in a place like that?
Speaker #2
You know, I don't know how other people go to museums. I find myself being very reflective. And I find that when I talk to people after the fact, they're like, so how did you like this museum or that museum or this thing? And I'm like, I take away really different things than many people do. So, you know, when we walked in, I would say I was obviously aware of Vincent Van Gogh. I was a fan, but I just started seeing. the type of things I'm passionate about everywhere. So here, I'll give you an example. There's a really popular viral Neil deGrasse Tyson short recently about... The interviewer asked him who was the most prolific, I think it was scientist or science mind in Neil's opinion. And he said, hands down without fail, it's Isaac Newton. And he rattled off all these things that Newton did. He ends and I'm sorry to ruin the punchline if you all haven't seen it is and then he turned 26
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah,
Speaker #2
i've seen that one Well van gogh did not start painting until he's 27 Because when I hear the thing like all this stuff that somebody did by 26 and i'm sitting here as a as a 48 year Old i'm like man. I am behind i'm lazy. I mean, obviously i'm no isaac newton, but I do as I age. I don't know about you feel just time slipping away. So it was The first thing I took away from the Van Gogh Museum was, okay, he started at 27 and he only really painted for 10 years, unfortunately, because he decided to end his life. But there's other painters, other people in other professions where we might see them as one of the greats. And when you really look at their life, maybe they started late, started early, but maybe their total productive time was less than we might think.
Speaker #1
Does it really matter in that sense? Is there a race against the clock? When do you need to start in order to be successful? That comes back to the discussion that we've had multiple times in this podcast. What does success mean? And to me, there's nothing else to success than the achievement of your goals. And if they're low goals, they're low goals. If you achieve them, you're successful, which is fine. But like when we talk about age like this in this form, it feels like there is a certain deadline that we have to make or like you have to start so early so that by the time that you're 50 or 60 or 70, you know, you've achieved X and Y.
Speaker #2
I hope you're right. I want to believe that you're right. I want to subscribe to your newsletter. That is a healthy way of seeing things. And I've said on here many times before, you are mentally healthier than I am. But I struggle to think like I have goals and many of my goals have been the same since I was young, like since I was 10, 12. Many are new and I worry that I'm going to find or evolve in such a way that a goal or something really passionate becomes important to me and I'm unable to do it. Either from just the act of growing old or time or space or be like, if I had known this. Now, I know what you're going to say. You're probably going to say, well, but you can't look backwards. You can't, you know, the rear view mirror shows you where you're going. The windshield shows you where you're going. And I get that. But yeah, I mean, I'd be lying if I said this, you know, celebrating a birthday and then walking through the life's work of somebody and all that doesn't worry me, right? Like, because something, another area you and I... differ in is I enjoy being good at something. Right? Like... I have friends who are, maybe they're making a physical item or maybe they're writing or maybe they're into decoration, like interior design. And they're okay with not being great currently and they're okay with never being great. That bothers me.
Speaker #1
Does that bother you for you or for them?
Speaker #2
Oh, it doesn't bother me for them. It used to. Like, I used to be the type of person who, I wouldn't, okay, I'm not going to say I don't judge others, but. I would say I would not think less of somebody who is not good at something. But I love the act of learning and I love the act of mastery. And, you know, if you think about Dan Ping's autonomy, mastery, purpose, right? Like, I totally see all three of those in myself. And I don't let, like, I'm never going to play the guitar like Eddie Vedder or Marcus Mumford. But I surely would like to say I'm capable and competent, right? Like I think I've said on here before, I know I've said it to you is I don't know what I want to be, but I know what I don't want to be. And what I don't want to be is one thing, right? So no one is good at everything. No one's even capable or competent at everything. But yeah, I don't know. How do you see it? If you break me down, if I lay on your couch, and there's a lot of couches around here, if I go lay on the couch, how would you psychoanalyze what I just said?
Speaker #1
I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily psychoanalyze. I just have an endless curiosity. So if you don't... Let's start with what are these goals?
Speaker #2
What goals do you have? I want to write a book. Okay. Hands down, I want to have a book. And not just any book. Like I want... All I really care about, and I don't even... have a domain in mind. I just want to be proud of it. I've been a lifelong reader. I'm a firm believer that all leaders are readers, but not all readers are leaders. And because I enjoy consuming the written word my whole life, I want to produce something. And I do know that that is probably what some experts would call an immortality project, right? We've talked about this. There's a certain calmness of... That can come from saying, I put something into the world that is going to outlive me. And physical copies of your book may fall off the face of the planet in a few years, but no one will ever be able to take that away. Somewhere, somewhere, there's going to be a little citation of you and Ryan Brooke, right? So that's one.
Speaker #1
That's funny that you mentioned that specifically, because initially, when we just started writing the book, this is where, to me, the concept or the idea of bringing that forward, just bringing that to... fruition actually emerges as well. I want to have something that's semi-tangible that's almost proof that I've been here even beyond when I die. And that was in there in the beginning. We want to have something tangible that is still here when we leave this planet. And then we used the Discord community to give us feedback on one very adamant statement that kept coming back. This is too depressing, basically, for the rest of the tone of the book. So we took that out, but it resonates with me what you're saying.
Speaker #2
Yeah. So that's one. This is going to sound easy. I would like to develop a product, a physical product. And it could be as simple as a coaster. Or today I took a picture at the art museum of basically this little felt thing that hangs on a doorknob. And it's like a place to put your bookmark, a small paperback book, your reading glasses, or a remote control or something. And I'm like, so simple, not innovative. Um, people have been hanging things on doorknobs for hundreds and thousands of years, right? But I just like to have something physical that I can sell and that someone gives me money for, even if it's just 10 euro. And even if I sell 10 of them, like, because I know that that experience because of what you and I do for a living will be extremely enlightening because you'll have to think about pricing. You'll have to think about marketing. You'll have to think about payments, you know. That will either tell me, I don't want to do this again. But what I think it will do is it's going to be like, ooh, I want to do this more.
Speaker #1
Now, guess my follow-up question.
Speaker #2
What's stopping you from doing it? I know. You ask that question all the time.
Speaker #1
And again, what is stopping you?
Speaker #2
And audience, I will tell you how I feel when he asked me this question. I love that you asked me because when he stares in your eyes, those deep, murky eyes. You can tell he genuinely cares, right? And he genuinely wants to do it. But here's my tip to you. It feels like the fact that you said, guess my response and I guess right, tells me it's an automatic response from you. Find a way to do it to people that feels a little more personal, right? Because again, I'm not trying to change you because I love that you're doing it.
Speaker #1
Listening.
Speaker #2
But when I talk to people like you or other people in our industry or my coach, Alex, many times you all will ask the right question of me or have the right... Okay, right's the wrong word. But you'll have a very productive response or question. But my brain can't get past the delivery mechanism. Okay. Right? And I'm not saying this about you in this instance. But my coach, Alex, I will say, dude, stop coaching me. Because it's so obvious. He'll be like, yeah, what do you want out of it? Yeah, what do you want out of it?
Speaker #1
No, no, I'll ask you a different question. I appreciate the feedback, buddy. Yeah. Where are you going to start?
Speaker #2
Yeah. So today, I texted my friend Adam, who is a very prolific writer. In his own right, he's published. It's not Adam that you're going to find on the shelves at Barnes & Noble yet. And I said, I think I... Because he asked me. I reached out to him when I had the idea for a... A... a less businessy book, a more kind of just like philosophical or theoretical book. Would you like to partner? And he said, yeah, absolutely. I said, I think I just got hit by a Mack truck of inspiration. Does this title and concept resonate with you? And I'm waiting here back. He's probably just barely waking up right now. But even if he says no, I'm still going to. Pull on that thread a little bit. See if it goes anywhere. I might get home and lose the high of this travel and be like, yeah, I'm not interested in that anymore. And I think that's okay. Right? Like I tell everybody, a good idea at the wrong time, that happens to everybody. A good idea at a good time, that's ideal. So I don't know. We'll see. But I would say what I have already mentally started or not mentally and literally started doing is. capturing a list of people that I would want to research and tell stories about. Because that's the other thing I like about books, right? Like you and Ryan's book is a certain type of book, and it goes to a certain type of audience. And I love that type. I have bookshelves of that type of book. There are other types of books that you can tell the author. And if you read like the little synopsis on the back, the author was not an expert in the topic before they started writing it. But something... Something encouraged Ken Burns to go look at the US military or World War II or whatever. And then if you read, he spent years immersing himself in that, interviewing countless of people, all that. That part of the job feels so awesome to me. And I'm sure every aspiring writer out there is like, well, yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Of course, it would be great to be paid to travel the world, meet some of your heroes and interview interesting people. So I know I'm not new to have that thought. But... To me, that's the selling point of maybe writing a slightly different type of book. But do you ever see yourself doing something like that? Here, let me give it to you as a more constrained question. If I were to tell you your next book must be something other than a professional-leaning book in the domain that you're an expert in, what would you want to write about?
Speaker #1
And why? That's going to be the constraint. Oh, that's a good question. I never thought about that. Because to me, like the whole, my whole profession and the things I discuss about in class vary widely. So there's always going to be a, like a connection to the work that I do. Some, a question that I feel is a recurring one. that I teach people or that I discuss with people in my classes and also in consulting, etc. that is not necessarily tied to whatever framework or whatever product management, whatever we're doing, is what makes you happy. And I think that would be a very interesting way to think for people and to be educated or to educate themselves a little bit more on what truly makes them happy. Because, again, it never comes back into our work, our education, the way that we were brought up. It never is an exaggeration, but it's still something that too few people truly think about. What makes me happy? What do I need to do? And is the thing that I'm doing right now, does that make me happy or not? Do I get value? Do I bring home more energy than I bring to the office? And that is something that is so intangible for many people. I would like to help people get to that point a little bit faster, hopefully, and just poke them with questions that they... could ask themselves to figure out, is this meaningful to me? Does this help? Like, am I doing my job in a different, for something else than just paying the bills?
Speaker #2
Yeah. You are objectively good at what you do. Like, I'm not going to just kiss your ash and say that because I got to watch people interact with you in Finland and there was genuine, like you had a small line, a medium-sized line at one point, right? Do you think being good at what you do and taking pride in what you do, does it make you a better person? Does it make you a better life partner? Does it make you a better father?
Speaker #1
I would like to say yes, because it brings me joy. And therefore, it's easier to interact with me, I would say, whether that's in the office or outside or at home. Imagine the opposite side. If I leave my job, completely frustrated, annoyed, pissed at that stupid manager that's always nagging my shit, you know, the micromanager. If I come home with that attitude, I will rub that off on my family. Right? So in that sense, it would make me, I would say it makes me a better partner that I truly enjoy what I'm doing because I bring home that energy as well. And those are lessons that I can bring to my kids.
Speaker #2
So, Think back to a time, not in the too distant past, where you had a bad day. Tell me when you have it in your head.
Speaker #1
I honestly cannot recall that. The only thing that comes close to having a bad day is just having way too much work. Fair. For a continuous period.
Speaker #2
Okay. So put yourself mentally back there just for a second. Don't wallow in it. What would your family say or the people closest to you? I'll just leave it open. Have said back then. about what you were just saying. Like basically you're saying by being good at what you do and having pride in what you do, that carries over into your home life. So what would the opposite look like for you?
Speaker #1
The opposite of doing or bringing home the joy.
Speaker #2
Like when you were like, it could just be simple as having a bad day or it could be a prolonged amount of burnout. How would that manifest itself? You know, like on a Saturday with your kids or would it? Or are you able to compartmentalize those two things?
Speaker #1
really clearly uh if it takes too long if i continue that mentality too long it will drain my energy and therefore also my patience with my kids so something i really cannot stand i love my kids to death but like screaming and yelling i i do not take that shit well it just annoys like it sits with me in my brain and i really don't like that so then the moment that they start screaming i will be super annoyed right away and try to push that down you And if I have a group week, if I'm not that fatigued, I have a lot higher tolerance for those kind of things than when I'm super tired and everything irritates me. So that is something that I then also bring to my kids, you know, that they will start tiptoeing around me just because that's an exaggeration, but that they would have to pay a lot more attention to my mood rather than... I facilitate their mood. And that's not what I think a parent should be.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Do you think in the long term, like 10, 20 years from now, people looking back would be like, oh, I could tell that those couple years, I could tell you were burned out. Yes. Okay.
Speaker #1
Because I've had a burnout, right? Right. At that point, definitely people are telling me like... you're heading to a burnout i see the signs i was like no why burnouts are for the week not for me like i'm not one of those weak people that was my mentality back then honestly and i really thought that would never happen to me and then two weeks later i fainted on my way walking to work but i always thought like this is something that's never going to happen to me like i am unbeatable right right uh you
Speaker #2
Is that a man thing or is that just a human thing?
Speaker #1
I think that's a human thing, but I think men still have that more because of the perception of being weak. And that could be either culture, that could be self-perception, that could be taught. My therapist always calls the generation before ours the silent generation that never were taught to talk about their feelings. So if you don't know how to deal with that, you'll suck up everything and that's going to destroy you from the inside. And therefore, that's going to... exacerbate the pace of burnout yeah and you know that's that's hard to discuss then even if if so coming back to your question is that a man thing I think it has been created to be a man thing but it's not limited to we just like men are just in general I feel trying to be more macho yeah and hide it and then you know that is a negative spiral yeah Both Jim and I are experienced consultants and trainers. Therefore, we know how important it is for organizations to have the fundaments in place before delivering high-value products. And this starts with understanding the theory behind whatever framework, method, or process organizations apply. And this... is where Xebia comes in. Xebia is a pioneering software engineering and IT consultancy company transforming and executing at the intersection of domain and technology to create digital leaders for our people, clients, partners, and communities. As a gift for our Mastering Agility audience, they provided us with a discount code MA10 when signing up for their open enrollment classes to get 10% off. Go to xebia.com slash academy to find the entire curriculum of courses that is Xebia xebia.com slash academy to find all their courses.
Speaker #2
I saw today our colleague, Jamie Kriegel, who I think you know better than I, created kind of a new personas of some small cartoon type figures to talk about common patterns and behaviors. And Barry and Christian with the Liberators have done some awesome work over the years in this. I came up with a new one in Finland. do tell my my what we do in the shadows uh people will get this reference is the energy vampire that person on a team or people or in a company that suck the life out of things yes right corporate dementors yes i think it goes without saying that you would agree that there are certain people who when you remove them from the team the company everybody gets better right the whole addition by subtraction yes um And I also know from being here and in other countries for the last week, week and a half, that this looks different in different countries. In Germany, for example, for the audience, because I know our podcast is listened to in like over 100 different countries. In Germany, when I was in a few years ago, I was in London and we had a German student in the class. And on a break, he asked me, is it true that in the United States, there are... You could have to pack your desk up in a box and get the F out of the building. Oh, absolutely. A hundred percent. I've done it to people. I've seen it done to others. And I go, why? He goes, we would never do that in Germany. Ever. Like it's not even legal in, I think in most or all scenarios. So what do you think leads to, like, what are some patterns you see in teams and companies that lead to... everybody can point to who the energy vampire is in the room or on the team. And I don't know. I'll just stop there. Maybe they do something about it. Maybe they don't. What do you think?
Speaker #1
People are just, I think it's, people are scared in many cases to deliver that kind of feedback. Like, this is what I see. This is how it affects me. And this is what I would need from you to change that for me. Like, it's the path of least resistance to not bring it up. and not having to deal with those consequences or not having to hurt the other people. It's easier to not do that or just go to that person's manager and say, I know you're managing Jim. He's such an energy vampire. Do something about it. Make someone else do your dirty job for you so you don't have to feel the feelings that would come along with it. I think that's the most recurring or most often recurring pattern.
Speaker #2
So they're taking the easy way out. I would say just avoiding conflict.
Speaker #1
I would say so, yeah. I mean, how many people have you seen in organizations that are just conflict-averse?
Speaker #2
Yeah, I mean, I've seen that everywhere, right? Like, I think most people, even me, I'm conflict-averse at times. People like you and I, because of our training and experience and skills and all that, may be less than others. We may be slightly more in some cases or a lot more in other instances having hard conversations. I know I have just in the last, I can think of multiple examples just in the last few months, but they're never easy. Like even, yeah, they're never easy. Right. Yeah. It's just an interesting thought. Like I'm not going anywhere with this. I don't have a big aha, except to say, you know, walking through the ZB offices. And again, this is a podcast. So just for the audience, right? There's so many books here. It's like a library. So you can tell this company learns. and that they value learning, they value reading, writing, and arithmetic, and all that stuff. So I don't think there's any book on any of the shelves here in the building that would say, oh, the best way to deal with radical candor is to not talk about it, and the best way to deal with conflict is to ignore it. I'm pretty sure the books say the exact opposite of that. So if there's decades of research, and studies, and books, and movies, and all this stuff about dealing with it, why are we still so bad at it? Or why do we still so often take the easy way out?
Speaker #1
Because I don't think it's necessarily a big part of our job to actually do that. Like we don't get rewarded to do so. We don't get properly trained or get the opportunities to apply that feedback. Unless you really deliberately and consciously choose to do so. And this is find a style that works for you and how you do that. Because some people are just super charismatic and they can deliver it basically in any way. Even they could say it as bluntly as possible that would offend many other people if they would have delivered it. But some people are just so charismatic, they can just basically do everything and deliver it in a way that would be accepted by many. There are sufficient people that I know that would have to sit down with someone, kind of massage it in or go out for a walk. And either is going to be fine, but people don't take the opportunity to become good at it. It's one of those things. It's like teaching. We were discussing on the way here that if you do a certain course. often enough, you'll learn the slides by heart. You know what's going to come next. But now compare that, like how often you do that to the amount or the frequency that you deliver feedback to someone in the way that it should be delivered, right? The amount of normal work that fits your job, like teaching, knowing the slides by heart, knowing the material, you do that so much more than delivering feedback. So you don't have the opportunity to become really good at it unless you do it beyond delivering tough messages. You can also practice feedback by saying positive stuff, giving compliments in a structured way. And then that way you'll start to own the structure of giving feedback and then you'll slowly become better at it.
Speaker #2
Yeah, for the audience's sake, one of the things we're talking about in this is in the old radio DJ days, they call it hitting the post, right? When that DJ does that beautiful, seamless transition from... Maybe speaking about something, reading the weather into like the next big hit from Pink Floyd. In the classroom setting or in the workplace setting, that can look like a lot of different things. It might mean like you've mastered the art of walking around a room facilitating a group of people. Or maybe you've got a certain way that you prep for a workshop or a session or an important meeting that just to the attendee. in the moment or after the fact just look seamless. It looked like an artist at their craft. And even when we were in Helsinki, someone came up to me and we were about to record a podcast with them. I won't out them. And they were nervous. They're like, I'm really nervous. I go, don't be. Like, how do you do this? Like, how do you just sit down and throw the headphones on and just do this? I'm like, well, maybe I suck at it. I don't get hung up about it. I believe in iterative and incremental improvements. So... if episode 127 is better than episode 100, like clearly better, I'm happy. Yeah. And I said, also, it's just repetition.
Speaker #1
It's just that, but also, I don't think it's different. Like the conversations that we have now are not necessarily different from the conversations, the way that we would converse. No. When our headphones and the mics would be off. Right. It's just having a normal conversation with decent and human interest. And that's the... the only difference between those conversations is that we're now talking into a microphone. There's cameras at us and we have headphones on. That's the only difference. Like we just have a normal conversation.
Speaker #2
Well, and the number one compliment you and I get is, man, that felt so comfortable. That felt so easy. It was just like we were sitting around a bar talking. Well, yeah, because it kind of is. But also when I ask people, what surprised you? They're like, well, in my head, as we were having this. easy conversation, I'm running through, what if they ask me about this? Don't forget to say this. If they say this, this is the right answer. I'm like, yeah, all that mental prep and load was for nothing because it might've just been like dick jokes and puns. So, but I do think comfort comes from mastery and being genuine. And that's something we've talked about in here a lot. Like if you're genuine, when you screw up, you're just gonna be like, yeah, I screwed up. Yeah.
Speaker #1
You're going to screw up regardless who you are, in what way. Like you cannot expect yourself to be a master or an expert overnight. Like right now I'm having the same idea or the same feeling with AI. Like I'm running behind on where I want to be. Like I'm definitely running behind on other people. They are a lot more knowledgeable than I am, but I want to learn more. Right. And that's like what you were just discussing. Like that mastery is something that I want to be better at.
Speaker #0
But I also don't put in the time and effort yet. So I cannot expect myself to be an instant expert tomorrow if I don't put in the effort. And even if I would put in a lot of effort today, I know I'm not going to be an expert tomorrow. I need to apply that stuff, apply the knowledge, whether that's on LLMs, on Gen AI, on gigantic AI, on the whole shebam. I need to apply that to become better and gradually better at it. It's just an unrealistic expectation. I think... That's also coming back to goals. That's where a lot of people flunk out on their goals because it takes too much time. It takes too much effort. They have to grind too long and too often and too difficultly. That's an interesting word. But sometimes things are too challenging and it just takes too much time for people to truly persevere in the achievement of their goals.
Speaker #1
Right. Microsoft just made a dollar because you said agentic AI. I had never heard that phrase until like two weeks ago. And now I think I've heard it every day for the last week. So some marketing person somewhere is like,
Speaker #0
it's a good thing. Yeah,
Speaker #1
it is. Well, and to connect this back to Van Gogh, what you see well in the museum here in Amsterdam is the growth, right? And you hear in the audio tour about how he got better. And in between painting, was talking to his peers. He was observing life. He was focusing on getting better and innovating. That's one of the other big takeaways ahead is, you know, in the world of fine art, Van Gogh was by no means one of the early ones, right? You know, in the grand scheme of things, people had been painting for shitloads of time before him. But they were finding new pigments at the time, finding new brushstrokes. types, finding new techniques, entirely new techniques, some of which he invented or mastered or whatever. But that's another thing I took away is, you know, this person that we now in hindsight see as, you know, one of the luminaries of an entire genre of art, started at 27, learned from his peers, actively sought out in spur, like all these things that apply to almost any domain. Yeah. Right? And the point there is not that anybody can be the next Van Gogh or that you should strive to be that level. But it's don't put people like this on a pedestal because they had to slog through it. And I wonder if maybe they were just born talented, right? Or could it be the way that they approached work?
Speaker #0
It's probably a little bit of both. It's the same with the idea of bodybuilding. bodybuilders get looked at. They just use steroids. So the automatic, no, that's not how that shit works. You still have to put in the effort. You still have to slave away at the gym. You still have to be super strict about your diet. It's not going to be because you put a needle up your ass that all of a sudden, bam, you're a balloon. No, you still have to put in all the effort. So even if you have a talent, you still have to do it. You still have to use it. You still have to find your way. to actually apply that stuff and become super good at what you're doing. And even with a lot of artists and painters, et cetera, some of that stuff doesn't even get appreciated until you die.
Speaker #1
I'm going to purposely be vague. Do you know what two of the funniest words to me are? Okay, don't answer that. With dimple. Hear me out. Here's the story. Yes. Okay. This is a total effing tangent. Okay. years ago, 15 years ago, I was working at a company and I was on the leadership team. So I got shared calendars from all the executives, which is no big deal, right? To share meetings. It's like, basically, we had just decided we need to show each other where we're at instead of just when we're busy so that certain things can be booked over, not booked over, right? Whatever we were inspecting and adapting, scheduling issues. I was looking at one of my colleagues' calendars and I saw this big time block and I'm like, whoa, why can't I schedule this time with them? And it was blah, blah, blah, Dr. So-and-so for chin implant dash with dimple. I don't know why, but the with dimple just, it just killed me.
Speaker #0
It's a feature.
Speaker #1
It's a feature, right? And I was literally laughing at my desk and I'm like, oh my God. I mean, the amount of vanity to take the time to type that in your own Outload calendar with Dimple as if the doctor was going to be, as if you're going to be sitting there in the chair like, oh, hey doc, by the way.
Speaker #0
Here's some acceptance criteria.
Speaker #1
Don't forget the dimple. Here's some acceptance criteria, right? Like I don't... So a friend of mine was also on this team and also the same, right? I'm like, hey, go try and schedule a meeting on this certain day with this person. And he didn't even... Like I got the little dot, dot, dot of the day that says he was IMing me in the company I am. And then it went away. And I'm like, ooh, he's writing a long message. And then he comes bursting into my office like the damn Kool-Aid man. His face is red. He's like, can you believe this? Oh, my God. And they had known each other for like 25 years. And he's like, I can't wait to bust his balls about this. It's going to be so fun. Because he put it out there for, you know, like, it's not like we snooped, right? Like, this is.
Speaker #0
I mean, if it's public, if it's in your agenda, if it's in your calendar and everyone can see it.
Speaker #1
Yes. Sorry. Total tangent about something that you said. A little bit of a squirrel brain there.
Speaker #0
Brain squirrel.
Speaker #1
Brain squirrel. Yes. Hashtag, trademark, copyright, brain squirrel. So, and where I'm going with some of this Van Gogh stuff is there's a common phrase out there that no one ever said on their deathbed, I wish I had worked more.
Speaker #0
I don't know.
Speaker #1
I've never been. What do you think of that idea, that sentence?
Speaker #0
Well, A, I cannot verify it because I'm not attending everyone's death. So, I don't know. It's an assumption.
Speaker #1
Have one of your agentic AIs comb the life's history of like, what would that be? I don't know what the Dutch word would be, but like obituary. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Great idea. And some people, let's be honest, put the bitch in obituary.
Speaker #1
Never heard that before.
Speaker #0
There you go.
Speaker #1
Is that when you're happy to see a woman pass away? Sometimes. Or a guy, I guess. Anybody could be a bitch.
Speaker #0
No. It depends on where you look at work, where you want to. put work in. I mean, if you're on your deathbed and it's about more work into your relationships and having a happier life, then yes. If it means going to the office just to slave away for corporate, then no. I don't think anyone is going to be there like, oh, I wish I would have been at a doo-doo company X being there 60 hours a week instead of four. No one's going to be saying that at all.
Speaker #1
Right. And that's where the purpose from autonomy, mastery, and purpose comes from. Like, yeah, if you're some corporate citizen living in some rabbit warren cubicle, I'm pretty sure you're going to say, yeah, I don't wish I had spent more time at work. But when you see people that truly love what they do and work doesn't feel like work or that it's rewarding at a macro level, and I don't think you're alone in the fact that the people around you benefit from... you being good at what you do and enjoying what you do. Not just because maybe you're nicer to be around, but because that passion isn't contagious. It might be lucrative. You might make good money. You might be comfortable. You might have a certain lifestyle. So I do think that there probably is some truth to the fact that loving what you do is a really good thing.
Speaker #0
I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. What makes you happy about your job? What is it that makes you do the thing that you're doing?
Speaker #1
It sounds cliche, but for me, it's really, it's two things. It's about the people, right? The connections I've made, I think it's one of my superpowers is I'm really good over time at making real connections with people, good people, people that, you know, decades in the future, I'm still friends with and consider, you know, they're on my personal Facebook and we share the ups and downs of life, right? Like to me. And I think I've said before, one of the biggest compliments I can get is people who would say, I would kill to do another project with you or I would love to work with you again. Or if you ever can hire me, I would like to me, there is no as a business person. There almost is no better compliment from a people side. The other reason I do what I do is it's kind of a little bit of like spelunking or archaeology. I am hopeful. That being good at what I do and doing what I do and putting more things in the world will somehow put me in the right place at the right time to really do something that I enjoy doing. That brings together what I'm good at doing and what I enjoy. And I was talking to a few people on a break at the conference. And one thing I mentioned to them was recycling or sustainability or permaculture. If I could find a way... to do what I do and do it well with a company like Patagonia or maybe even Doctors Without Borders or a recycling or sustainability type of initiative. And it could even be inside of a big corporate monolith that's got a societal program or an environmental impact. I think I would be the type who would happily throw themselves into that work at the expense of other things to do it well, because it's kind of like the combination of what I enjoy doing, working with people, and what I'm passionate about.
Speaker #0
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Speaker #1
What is my toilet? What are you talking about?
Speaker #0
You would be sitting there for four days. Anyway, do you ever have these days where you're like, I just have to do this so I'll get more money so I can do X faster?
Speaker #1
Yes, all the time. If you had asked me 24 hours before I boarded the plane to come over here a week and a half ago for two weeks, I would have said I would much rather be at home with my dog. my family and on my lawnmower. It's a beautiful spring at home. But I came over here knowing once I get here, I'm going to love it. I'm going to have a blast. But yeah, it pays the bills. It's just great that I have had a blast for the last week and a half doing what I enjoy and being able to benefit. But yeah, there's many days that I feel like that. One of the things we struggle with as a team, so me and the Wiser Bees team have had so much time in person in the last week and a half. And one of the things that I struggle with, and I'm open to advice on this, is at times we have to do something we would rather not do. Or we'd have to do something, teach something, coach something, help people do something in a way that we know is not ideal, but is a step towards better. And… I was naive, you know, I don't know, let's say 12 years ago when I was working at the time of seeing people who are clearly better than me and saying, why would they tell us to do it this way? They have to know this is dumb or this isn't the point. Like, how many times have you and I heard like, that's not the point of agility or that's not scrum. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But y'all ain't ready for whatever that is. Like, I've said a lot on here and I'll shut up talking in just a second. It's like. One of the ways to encourage people to get better is to show them what's possible. So I don't like the phrase, meet people where they are. If you meet people where they are, it's too easy for all of us to be like, well, if this is good enough for them, I guess it's good enough for me, right? Like that's easy. So I like to meet people a little bit away, a little bit, half step, a step from where they're at and take them on field trips, whether a digital field trip or... literal field trip and say this is what the next level could look like or this is what two levels higher could be i have unequivocally had nothing but good luck with that with that that technique but what
Speaker #0
do you think i totally agree with that this is necessary because uh i hate the term meet them where they're at as well but um this kind of compares to i've been doing kickboxing in the past for let's say 10 years and when I started training, I always wanted to do matches, like do kickboxing matches. I've been in training to do matches. Ultimately, I never did them, but you know. If I would be there, like start and just learn the basic movements and positioning and defense, etc. And then I still cannot go into like the scrum, like the picture perfect scrum world of kickboxing and do these matches and go into the ring. I still need to learn how to take a hit, how it feels to take a hit, what it feels the day after to take a hit. And I can tell you that shit hurts. It really hurts. when you get like someone's shinbone against your face. But first you have to take the first step oddly. And that starts with taking like these pads against your legs and have them kicked. And even though it's foam that's like 20 centimeters thick, it will still hurt if you kick in the right way. But you cannot take a hip from one day to the other if it's such a big difference between where you're at right now and where you want to be. Even so, if your coach sees like... They want to be there. But first, we have to train them to do marginal increases so they feel the consequences. They feel how that goes. They build the muscle memory and then slowly start to progressively become better. But you cannot do that from one day to another, even though you see the potential and you want to have them running, but they cannot even crawl yet. They need to have the basic momentum, the basic motion to get there. And that's something that made me think about what you just said.
Speaker #1
How do you feel about when someone says... hey, I'm on board with getting better, with continuous improvement. But whoa, man, you got to dial back your expectations. It's going to take a long time. Maybe you think it's already taking too long. And they're trying to convince you or sell you on the idea that you're still asking or expecting way too much. Not of yourself. This wouldn't really apply to yourself, but of others maybe.
Speaker #0
I think it's a combination of two things I would follow that remark with. A would be, all right, then you better prepare your budget, dude. That's one. Because if it's going to take longer for me to do it, then it's going to take you more money to invest. And also, I think that is making it a little bit too comfortable for yourself. Not from you as a consultant perspective, but more from the client. Like, eh, kind of massages that into, just go easy on us. No, I'm here to do a job. I'm here to make you effective. And that's not going to happen. If I always just sit with you and hold your hand, I'm like, oh, poor baby. No. Sometimes you're going to be uncomfortable. Sometimes you're going to hate me. And sometimes you wish you never started this. And that's good because that's how you grow.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
What do you think?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you said. I found myself recently saying kind of a riff on the, if it's too loud, you're too old. thing of saying, I can go faster and there is a lot more we can do, but I am also taking the lead from the client, right? Part of being a consultant, part of being a coach is allowing the coachee, the consultee to set the pace. But there is a concept in coaching called pace, pace, lead, right? And it really goes to speaking. Like, and what this is talking about and where I first heard about this was in like conflict de-escalation. So part of one of the techniques in conflict de-escalation is if somebody is just super agitated, talking to them in really quiet, soft voice, that is the wrong thing in most people, for most people. So pace, pace, lead means you meet them where they're at. So if they're loud, you're loud. If they're frustrated, you're frustrated. It doesn't mean you argue with them. It doesn't mean you also start screaming. But it's meeting them where they are and kind of then changing it. And that can go up or down. Like if you're trying to motivate or encourage somebody to want more, to be more, to run faster, to do something, it could be pace, pace, lead, like to pull. And in conflict de-escalation, it can be to decrease from a level four conflict down to a level three. And I see that a lot at work and in my personal life. And I think some people do that naturally. Some people probably have learned how to do that, but it's a technique. It frustrates me to, when I know that people are smart enough, they're capable enough, they're able to do more. And I do, I know this might sound bad, everybody, but I'm going to admit it. It does frustrate me sometimes when people that I care about doing work that I am passionate about and that they're passionate about set the bar too low. Right?
Speaker #0
Then what do you do?
Speaker #1
Still figuring it out. Like I don't have a strategy. I can't create you a one page or a one slider on how I do it. But I would say some of the things I do is showing them what good could look like. Taking them to another company, showing them an article, a case study, or just a person that maybe has been where they're at and has improved or grown. I do sometimes what you said, which is asking like, what's the cost of going slow? or going slower. And I'm not even just talking about dollars and cents. Because sometimes, you know, I used to work for a big blue company and they used to talk a lot about, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jim, but that's just blue dollars. I don't know if you've heard this over here, but blue dollars just means it's internal money. It's cross-charging. It's a cost center. And maybe it is, it turns into green money somewhere. It turns into real money, but they're so removed from that. It's just, it's spreadsheet money. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, but it's still time. Like, and it's even if it's blue dollars, it's still it comes off the blue budget, the internal budget, which means you may have less internal dollars to spend on something else. So it's still kind of real, even though it might not come out of their literal pocket. So the cost is, OK, you want me to go slower? You want to take six months to learn taps? Fine. What's that going to do to your arc as a musician? But it's harder when it's work. Like, you know, what's it going to do to the arc of your product? Yeah, whatever. I don't care. I can't say. Who knows? How could anyone know? I'm like, yeah, I know. And that's the problem is many things you don't know until you have hindsight. And then you're like, oh, shit. I wish we had started doing this two years ago. Yeah.
Speaker #0
No shit. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Sometimes to come full circle to the energy vampires. Pulling somebody out of your team can be the impetus to go faster. Or sometimes hiring a single person is what I've seen has totally sparked any of these things. Interest, passion, engagement, whatever. One of the best things that I've seen multiple teams do is hire a test automation person. Because, okay, let's say you got a team of six people and they're great. engineers or maybe they're sort of full stacky, but then they hire somebody who has a skill set that's been lacking. Or maybe they hire a domain expert, like an automation, test automation expert. And that person's like, what the hell are y'all doing? We're going to make this a lot better real fast. And we probably all know those Herculean type people who can just... pick something up and put it on their proverbial shoulders and move it forward like without even being told to do it without being bribed just because they know it's what's needed and it's is what they want to do yes
Speaker #0
and then it feels again so natural and like this it's it's as if these people never had to practice you know it looks like from the from the outside like this is just a god-given talent and you don't have to do anything for it Like the bodybuilders of coaching.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Hey, let's start slowly bringing this one home. Let's pull up ChatGPT.
Speaker #1
Oh, we get to answer the ChatGPT question today? Okay. Can we create our own agent? What if we had a mastering agility agent that just was a powerful question prompt?
Speaker #0
Oh.
Speaker #1
Hashtag product idea.
Speaker #0
Let's see. Hey,
Speaker #1
everybody. While he's looking this up, I'm going to leave you with something I wrote in my phone. A quote from Van Gogh in a letter to his brother. And this stuck with me. I mean, to the point where I stopped and wrote it. It says, I still hope not to work for myself alone. And I think that's a really interesting quote. And the backstory, and please still go give the museum your money, is he took time to create a painting for his newborn nephew, who was also named Vincent, was named after him. And the museum I'm walking through was actually opened by Vincent van Gogh, but not the painter, but by his nephew. And in this letter, he's basically, what I interpret from this and infer from this is, I'm doing this thing that I love for my nephew. But it's, you know, I want my work to be for other people. Right? Yeah. Inspiring.
Speaker #0
It is.
Speaker #1
Because what you and I do is not for us. Like there is some amount of selfish pursuits in it, right? Like I'm not saying we do it as a nonprofit. But we normally do things for the benefit of others.
Speaker #0
Yes. That's true.
Speaker #1
Even this podcast is not for us. Like you and I could have this conversation we have without the mics on.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And also we're not making any money out of this.
Speaker #1
No.
Speaker #0
So we're definitely not doing it. Anyway, coming back to ChatGPT.
Speaker #1
Yes, ChatGPT.
Speaker #0
What assumption am I making that if challenged could open up new possibilities?
Speaker #1
Oh my. gosh, what assumption are you making? I would say, I mean, wow, something doesn't come to mind, but I would say one of the things that I think I hear from you is how busy you are. And I think you're making an assumption, maybe, that you're going to burn out. And that you don't enjoy being busy could be an assumption. And that, or maybe that you don't have enough time to do something. And I don't know. I'm guessing a little bit at some of these, but, um, Ryan Brooke gave you a phenomenal compliment just to me, not to you. So he might get a little upset that I tell you is he's like, he credits you and your tenacity with, with, with finishing the book because, um, you know, you know, we're all working on some initiatives. And we all have the things we're good at. We all have the things we're not good at. We all have our things, right? But, and I've joked with you and busted your chops many times about, you know, brain squirrels and all that stuff. But folks, it's also paired with tenacity, right? So just to compliment for you. So I guess those would be my answers about your assumptions. So, all right, tell me, hit me with it. What assumptions am I making that are limiting me somehow?
Speaker #0
First one, thank you. Thank you for giving me that.
Speaker #1
Well, thank Ryan, but you're welcome.
Speaker #0
And thank you for giving that. I think you, from earlier in this conversation, like the assumption that you're almost too old to start these kinds of things. I think it's, I get it, but I also think it's nonsense. Look at Colonel Sanders. He didn't start KFC until he was in his 60s.
Speaker #1
Can we use someone else for me to aspire to? Okay, I get it. It's another point.
Speaker #0
yes fair point so i think that's that's the thing if if you want to do this do this and there's nothing no one's stopping you but you and i know this is that's an open door as well but don't assume that your
Speaker #1
goals are going to fade out because i know they're just going to continue to stack yeah i need to i need to ruin my my goal tree a little bit right and get rid of some that maybe are not important enough anymore. And maybe they've been replaced by new things that are more important.
Speaker #0
I would say refine your idea backlog. Terrible way to end the show. All right. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Love it. As always, you too. Thank you.
Speaker #2
That is all for today. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, let us know by hitting that like button, share it with friends and colleagues, sharing a message on LinkedIn, joining our warm and welcoming Discord community, or attend recordings as a virtual audience. You can find all the relevant links in the show notes. We hope you'll tune back in for the next episode of the Mastering Agility podcast.

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Speaker #0
Welcome to Mastering Agility. If you want to listen to authentic conversations with the most inspiring guests, find like-minded people in the Mastering Agility Discord community, or both online and face-to-face events, this is the platform for you. Grab a drink, sit back and join professional Scrum trainers, Sander Doerr, Jim Sammons, and their guests in an all new episode.
Speaker #1
Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. And hey Jim, for once in the ZVL studio.
Speaker #2
I know this place is beautiful and I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker #1
It's wild, isn't it?
Speaker #2
It brings back memories as I was telling you to a company I used to work with or work at like six, seven years ago. And it's so inspiring to be in a place like this. And like my creative juices are flowing there. They're spilling out. There's so much creative juices when I get to be in a space like this.
Speaker #1
Right. And we just drove here. You mentioned you went to the Van Gogh Museum. How is that to be in a place like that?
Speaker #2
You know, I don't know how other people go to museums. I find myself being very reflective. And I find that when I talk to people after the fact, they're like, so how did you like this museum or that museum or this thing? And I'm like, I take away really different things than many people do. So, you know, when we walked in, I would say I was obviously aware of Vincent Van Gogh. I was a fan, but I just started seeing. the type of things I'm passionate about everywhere. So here, I'll give you an example. There's a really popular viral Neil deGrasse Tyson short recently about... The interviewer asked him who was the most prolific, I think it was scientist or science mind in Neil's opinion. And he said, hands down without fail, it's Isaac Newton. And he rattled off all these things that Newton did. He ends and I'm sorry to ruin the punchline if you all haven't seen it is and then he turned 26
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah,
Speaker #2
i've seen that one Well van gogh did not start painting until he's 27 Because when I hear the thing like all this stuff that somebody did by 26 and i'm sitting here as a as a 48 year Old i'm like man. I am behind i'm lazy. I mean, obviously i'm no isaac newton, but I do as I age. I don't know about you feel just time slipping away. So it was The first thing I took away from the Van Gogh Museum was, okay, he started at 27 and he only really painted for 10 years, unfortunately, because he decided to end his life. But there's other painters, other people in other professions where we might see them as one of the greats. And when you really look at their life, maybe they started late, started early, but maybe their total productive time was less than we might think.
Speaker #1
Does it really matter in that sense? Is there a race against the clock? When do you need to start in order to be successful? That comes back to the discussion that we've had multiple times in this podcast. What does success mean? And to me, there's nothing else to success than the achievement of your goals. And if they're low goals, they're low goals. If you achieve them, you're successful, which is fine. But like when we talk about age like this in this form, it feels like there is a certain deadline that we have to make or like you have to start so early so that by the time that you're 50 or 60 or 70, you know, you've achieved X and Y.
Speaker #2
I hope you're right. I want to believe that you're right. I want to subscribe to your newsletter. That is a healthy way of seeing things. And I've said on here many times before, you are mentally healthier than I am. But I struggle to think like I have goals and many of my goals have been the same since I was young, like since I was 10, 12. Many are new and I worry that I'm going to find or evolve in such a way that a goal or something really passionate becomes important to me and I'm unable to do it. Either from just the act of growing old or time or space or be like, if I had known this. Now, I know what you're going to say. You're probably going to say, well, but you can't look backwards. You can't, you know, the rear view mirror shows you where you're going. The windshield shows you where you're going. And I get that. But yeah, I mean, I'd be lying if I said this, you know, celebrating a birthday and then walking through the life's work of somebody and all that doesn't worry me, right? Like, because something, another area you and I... differ in is I enjoy being good at something. Right? Like... I have friends who are, maybe they're making a physical item or maybe they're writing or maybe they're into decoration, like interior design. And they're okay with not being great currently and they're okay with never being great. That bothers me.
Speaker #1
Does that bother you for you or for them?
Speaker #2
Oh, it doesn't bother me for them. It used to. Like, I used to be the type of person who, I wouldn't, okay, I'm not going to say I don't judge others, but. I would say I would not think less of somebody who is not good at something. But I love the act of learning and I love the act of mastery. And, you know, if you think about Dan Ping's autonomy, mastery, purpose, right? Like, I totally see all three of those in myself. And I don't let, like, I'm never going to play the guitar like Eddie Vedder or Marcus Mumford. But I surely would like to say I'm capable and competent, right? Like I think I've said on here before, I know I've said it to you is I don't know what I want to be, but I know what I don't want to be. And what I don't want to be is one thing, right? So no one is good at everything. No one's even capable or competent at everything. But yeah, I don't know. How do you see it? If you break me down, if I lay on your couch, and there's a lot of couches around here, if I go lay on the couch, how would you psychoanalyze what I just said?
Speaker #1
I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily psychoanalyze. I just have an endless curiosity. So if you don't... Let's start with what are these goals?
Speaker #2
What goals do you have? I want to write a book. Okay. Hands down, I want to have a book. And not just any book. Like I want... All I really care about, and I don't even... have a domain in mind. I just want to be proud of it. I've been a lifelong reader. I'm a firm believer that all leaders are readers, but not all readers are leaders. And because I enjoy consuming the written word my whole life, I want to produce something. And I do know that that is probably what some experts would call an immortality project, right? We've talked about this. There's a certain calmness of... That can come from saying, I put something into the world that is going to outlive me. And physical copies of your book may fall off the face of the planet in a few years, but no one will ever be able to take that away. Somewhere, somewhere, there's going to be a little citation of you and Ryan Brooke, right? So that's one.
Speaker #1
That's funny that you mentioned that specifically, because initially, when we just started writing the book, this is where, to me, the concept or the idea of bringing that forward, just bringing that to... fruition actually emerges as well. I want to have something that's semi-tangible that's almost proof that I've been here even beyond when I die. And that was in there in the beginning. We want to have something tangible that is still here when we leave this planet. And then we used the Discord community to give us feedback on one very adamant statement that kept coming back. This is too depressing, basically, for the rest of the tone of the book. So we took that out, but it resonates with me what you're saying.
Speaker #2
Yeah. So that's one. This is going to sound easy. I would like to develop a product, a physical product. And it could be as simple as a coaster. Or today I took a picture at the art museum of basically this little felt thing that hangs on a doorknob. And it's like a place to put your bookmark, a small paperback book, your reading glasses, or a remote control or something. And I'm like, so simple, not innovative. Um, people have been hanging things on doorknobs for hundreds and thousands of years, right? But I just like to have something physical that I can sell and that someone gives me money for, even if it's just 10 euro. And even if I sell 10 of them, like, because I know that that experience because of what you and I do for a living will be extremely enlightening because you'll have to think about pricing. You'll have to think about marketing. You'll have to think about payments, you know. That will either tell me, I don't want to do this again. But what I think it will do is it's going to be like, ooh, I want to do this more.
Speaker #1
Now, guess my follow-up question.
Speaker #2
What's stopping you from doing it? I know. You ask that question all the time.
Speaker #1
And again, what is stopping you?
Speaker #2
And audience, I will tell you how I feel when he asked me this question. I love that you asked me because when he stares in your eyes, those deep, murky eyes. You can tell he genuinely cares, right? And he genuinely wants to do it. But here's my tip to you. It feels like the fact that you said, guess my response and I guess right, tells me it's an automatic response from you. Find a way to do it to people that feels a little more personal, right? Because again, I'm not trying to change you because I love that you're doing it.
Speaker #1
Listening.
Speaker #2
But when I talk to people like you or other people in our industry or my coach, Alex, many times you all will ask the right question of me or have the right... Okay, right's the wrong word. But you'll have a very productive response or question. But my brain can't get past the delivery mechanism. Okay. Right? And I'm not saying this about you in this instance. But my coach, Alex, I will say, dude, stop coaching me. Because it's so obvious. He'll be like, yeah, what do you want out of it? Yeah, what do you want out of it?
Speaker #1
No, no, I'll ask you a different question. I appreciate the feedback, buddy. Yeah. Where are you going to start?
Speaker #2
Yeah. So today, I texted my friend Adam, who is a very prolific writer. In his own right, he's published. It's not Adam that you're going to find on the shelves at Barnes & Noble yet. And I said, I think I... Because he asked me. I reached out to him when I had the idea for a... A... a less businessy book, a more kind of just like philosophical or theoretical book. Would you like to partner? And he said, yeah, absolutely. I said, I think I just got hit by a Mack truck of inspiration. Does this title and concept resonate with you? And I'm waiting here back. He's probably just barely waking up right now. But even if he says no, I'm still going to. Pull on that thread a little bit. See if it goes anywhere. I might get home and lose the high of this travel and be like, yeah, I'm not interested in that anymore. And I think that's okay. Right? Like I tell everybody, a good idea at the wrong time, that happens to everybody. A good idea at a good time, that's ideal. So I don't know. We'll see. But I would say what I have already mentally started or not mentally and literally started doing is. capturing a list of people that I would want to research and tell stories about. Because that's the other thing I like about books, right? Like you and Ryan's book is a certain type of book, and it goes to a certain type of audience. And I love that type. I have bookshelves of that type of book. There are other types of books that you can tell the author. And if you read like the little synopsis on the back, the author was not an expert in the topic before they started writing it. But something... Something encouraged Ken Burns to go look at the US military or World War II or whatever. And then if you read, he spent years immersing himself in that, interviewing countless of people, all that. That part of the job feels so awesome to me. And I'm sure every aspiring writer out there is like, well, yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Of course, it would be great to be paid to travel the world, meet some of your heroes and interview interesting people. So I know I'm not new to have that thought. But... To me, that's the selling point of maybe writing a slightly different type of book. But do you ever see yourself doing something like that? Here, let me give it to you as a more constrained question. If I were to tell you your next book must be something other than a professional-leaning book in the domain that you're an expert in, what would you want to write about?
Speaker #1
And why? That's going to be the constraint. Oh, that's a good question. I never thought about that. Because to me, like the whole, my whole profession and the things I discuss about in class vary widely. So there's always going to be a, like a connection to the work that I do. Some, a question that I feel is a recurring one. that I teach people or that I discuss with people in my classes and also in consulting, etc. that is not necessarily tied to whatever framework or whatever product management, whatever we're doing, is what makes you happy. And I think that would be a very interesting way to think for people and to be educated or to educate themselves a little bit more on what truly makes them happy. Because, again, it never comes back into our work, our education, the way that we were brought up. It never is an exaggeration, but it's still something that too few people truly think about. What makes me happy? What do I need to do? And is the thing that I'm doing right now, does that make me happy or not? Do I get value? Do I bring home more energy than I bring to the office? And that is something that is so intangible for many people. I would like to help people get to that point a little bit faster, hopefully, and just poke them with questions that they... could ask themselves to figure out, is this meaningful to me? Does this help? Like, am I doing my job in a different, for something else than just paying the bills?
Speaker #2
Yeah. You are objectively good at what you do. Like, I'm not going to just kiss your ash and say that because I got to watch people interact with you in Finland and there was genuine, like you had a small line, a medium-sized line at one point, right? Do you think being good at what you do and taking pride in what you do, does it make you a better person? Does it make you a better life partner? Does it make you a better father?
Speaker #1
I would like to say yes, because it brings me joy. And therefore, it's easier to interact with me, I would say, whether that's in the office or outside or at home. Imagine the opposite side. If I leave my job, completely frustrated, annoyed, pissed at that stupid manager that's always nagging my shit, you know, the micromanager. If I come home with that attitude, I will rub that off on my family. Right? So in that sense, it would make me, I would say it makes me a better partner that I truly enjoy what I'm doing because I bring home that energy as well. And those are lessons that I can bring to my kids.
Speaker #2
So, Think back to a time, not in the too distant past, where you had a bad day. Tell me when you have it in your head.
Speaker #1
I honestly cannot recall that. The only thing that comes close to having a bad day is just having way too much work. Fair. For a continuous period.
Speaker #2
Okay. So put yourself mentally back there just for a second. Don't wallow in it. What would your family say or the people closest to you? I'll just leave it open. Have said back then. about what you were just saying. Like basically you're saying by being good at what you do and having pride in what you do, that carries over into your home life. So what would the opposite look like for you?
Speaker #1
The opposite of doing or bringing home the joy.
Speaker #2
Like when you were like, it could just be simple as having a bad day or it could be a prolonged amount of burnout. How would that manifest itself? You know, like on a Saturday with your kids or would it? Or are you able to compartmentalize those two things?
Speaker #1
really clearly uh if it takes too long if i continue that mentality too long it will drain my energy and therefore also my patience with my kids so something i really cannot stand i love my kids to death but like screaming and yelling i i do not take that shit well it just annoys like it sits with me in my brain and i really don't like that so then the moment that they start screaming i will be super annoyed right away and try to push that down you And if I have a group week, if I'm not that fatigued, I have a lot higher tolerance for those kind of things than when I'm super tired and everything irritates me. So that is something that I then also bring to my kids, you know, that they will start tiptoeing around me just because that's an exaggeration, but that they would have to pay a lot more attention to my mood rather than... I facilitate their mood. And that's not what I think a parent should be.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Do you think in the long term, like 10, 20 years from now, people looking back would be like, oh, I could tell that those couple years, I could tell you were burned out. Yes. Okay.
Speaker #1
Because I've had a burnout, right? Right. At that point, definitely people are telling me like... you're heading to a burnout i see the signs i was like no why burnouts are for the week not for me like i'm not one of those weak people that was my mentality back then honestly and i really thought that would never happen to me and then two weeks later i fainted on my way walking to work but i always thought like this is something that's never going to happen to me like i am unbeatable right right uh you
Speaker #2
Is that a man thing or is that just a human thing?
Speaker #1
I think that's a human thing, but I think men still have that more because of the perception of being weak. And that could be either culture, that could be self-perception, that could be taught. My therapist always calls the generation before ours the silent generation that never were taught to talk about their feelings. So if you don't know how to deal with that, you'll suck up everything and that's going to destroy you from the inside. And therefore, that's going to... exacerbate the pace of burnout yeah and you know that's that's hard to discuss then even if if so coming back to your question is that a man thing I think it has been created to be a man thing but it's not limited to we just like men are just in general I feel trying to be more macho yeah and hide it and then you know that is a negative spiral yeah Both Jim and I are experienced consultants and trainers. Therefore, we know how important it is for organizations to have the fundaments in place before delivering high-value products. And this starts with understanding the theory behind whatever framework, method, or process organizations apply. And this... is where Xebia comes in. Xebia is a pioneering software engineering and IT consultancy company transforming and executing at the intersection of domain and technology to create digital leaders for our people, clients, partners, and communities. As a gift for our Mastering Agility audience, they provided us with a discount code MA10 when signing up for their open enrollment classes to get 10% off. Go to xebia.com slash academy to find the entire curriculum of courses that is Xebia xebia.com slash academy to find all their courses.
Speaker #2
I saw today our colleague, Jamie Kriegel, who I think you know better than I, created kind of a new personas of some small cartoon type figures to talk about common patterns and behaviors. And Barry and Christian with the Liberators have done some awesome work over the years in this. I came up with a new one in Finland. do tell my my what we do in the shadows uh people will get this reference is the energy vampire that person on a team or people or in a company that suck the life out of things yes right corporate dementors yes i think it goes without saying that you would agree that there are certain people who when you remove them from the team the company everybody gets better right the whole addition by subtraction yes um And I also know from being here and in other countries for the last week, week and a half, that this looks different in different countries. In Germany, for example, for the audience, because I know our podcast is listened to in like over 100 different countries. In Germany, when I was in a few years ago, I was in London and we had a German student in the class. And on a break, he asked me, is it true that in the United States, there are... You could have to pack your desk up in a box and get the F out of the building. Oh, absolutely. A hundred percent. I've done it to people. I've seen it done to others. And I go, why? He goes, we would never do that in Germany. Ever. Like it's not even legal in, I think in most or all scenarios. So what do you think leads to, like, what are some patterns you see in teams and companies that lead to... everybody can point to who the energy vampire is in the room or on the team. And I don't know. I'll just stop there. Maybe they do something about it. Maybe they don't. What do you think?
Speaker #1
People are just, I think it's, people are scared in many cases to deliver that kind of feedback. Like, this is what I see. This is how it affects me. And this is what I would need from you to change that for me. Like, it's the path of least resistance to not bring it up. and not having to deal with those consequences or not having to hurt the other people. It's easier to not do that or just go to that person's manager and say, I know you're managing Jim. He's such an energy vampire. Do something about it. Make someone else do your dirty job for you so you don't have to feel the feelings that would come along with it. I think that's the most recurring or most often recurring pattern.
Speaker #2
So they're taking the easy way out. I would say just avoiding conflict.
Speaker #1
I would say so, yeah. I mean, how many people have you seen in organizations that are just conflict-averse?
Speaker #2
Yeah, I mean, I've seen that everywhere, right? Like, I think most people, even me, I'm conflict-averse at times. People like you and I, because of our training and experience and skills and all that, may be less than others. We may be slightly more in some cases or a lot more in other instances having hard conversations. I know I have just in the last, I can think of multiple examples just in the last few months, but they're never easy. Like even, yeah, they're never easy. Right. Yeah. It's just an interesting thought. Like I'm not going anywhere with this. I don't have a big aha, except to say, you know, walking through the ZB offices. And again, this is a podcast. So just for the audience, right? There's so many books here. It's like a library. So you can tell this company learns. and that they value learning, they value reading, writing, and arithmetic, and all that stuff. So I don't think there's any book on any of the shelves here in the building that would say, oh, the best way to deal with radical candor is to not talk about it, and the best way to deal with conflict is to ignore it. I'm pretty sure the books say the exact opposite of that. So if there's decades of research, and studies, and books, and movies, and all this stuff about dealing with it, why are we still so bad at it? Or why do we still so often take the easy way out?
Speaker #1
Because I don't think it's necessarily a big part of our job to actually do that. Like we don't get rewarded to do so. We don't get properly trained or get the opportunities to apply that feedback. Unless you really deliberately and consciously choose to do so. And this is find a style that works for you and how you do that. Because some people are just super charismatic and they can deliver it basically in any way. Even they could say it as bluntly as possible that would offend many other people if they would have delivered it. But some people are just so charismatic, they can just basically do everything and deliver it in a way that would be accepted by many. There are sufficient people that I know that would have to sit down with someone, kind of massage it in or go out for a walk. And either is going to be fine, but people don't take the opportunity to become good at it. It's one of those things. It's like teaching. We were discussing on the way here that if you do a certain course. often enough, you'll learn the slides by heart. You know what's going to come next. But now compare that, like how often you do that to the amount or the frequency that you deliver feedback to someone in the way that it should be delivered, right? The amount of normal work that fits your job, like teaching, knowing the slides by heart, knowing the material, you do that so much more than delivering feedback. So you don't have the opportunity to become really good at it unless you do it beyond delivering tough messages. You can also practice feedback by saying positive stuff, giving compliments in a structured way. And then that way you'll start to own the structure of giving feedback and then you'll slowly become better at it.
Speaker #2
Yeah, for the audience's sake, one of the things we're talking about in this is in the old radio DJ days, they call it hitting the post, right? When that DJ does that beautiful, seamless transition from... Maybe speaking about something, reading the weather into like the next big hit from Pink Floyd. In the classroom setting or in the workplace setting, that can look like a lot of different things. It might mean like you've mastered the art of walking around a room facilitating a group of people. Or maybe you've got a certain way that you prep for a workshop or a session or an important meeting that just to the attendee. in the moment or after the fact just look seamless. It looked like an artist at their craft. And even when we were in Helsinki, someone came up to me and we were about to record a podcast with them. I won't out them. And they were nervous. They're like, I'm really nervous. I go, don't be. Like, how do you do this? Like, how do you just sit down and throw the headphones on and just do this? I'm like, well, maybe I suck at it. I don't get hung up about it. I believe in iterative and incremental improvements. So... if episode 127 is better than episode 100, like clearly better, I'm happy. Yeah. And I said, also, it's just repetition.
Speaker #1
It's just that, but also, I don't think it's different. Like the conversations that we have now are not necessarily different from the conversations, the way that we would converse. No. When our headphones and the mics would be off. Right. It's just having a normal conversation with decent and human interest. And that's the... the only difference between those conversations is that we're now talking into a microphone. There's cameras at us and we have headphones on. That's the only difference. Like we just have a normal conversation.
Speaker #2
Well, and the number one compliment you and I get is, man, that felt so comfortable. That felt so easy. It was just like we were sitting around a bar talking. Well, yeah, because it kind of is. But also when I ask people, what surprised you? They're like, well, in my head, as we were having this. easy conversation, I'm running through, what if they ask me about this? Don't forget to say this. If they say this, this is the right answer. I'm like, yeah, all that mental prep and load was for nothing because it might've just been like dick jokes and puns. So, but I do think comfort comes from mastery and being genuine. And that's something we've talked about in here a lot. Like if you're genuine, when you screw up, you're just gonna be like, yeah, I screwed up. Yeah.
Speaker #1
You're going to screw up regardless who you are, in what way. Like you cannot expect yourself to be a master or an expert overnight. Like right now I'm having the same idea or the same feeling with AI. Like I'm running behind on where I want to be. Like I'm definitely running behind on other people. They are a lot more knowledgeable than I am, but I want to learn more. Right. And that's like what you were just discussing. Like that mastery is something that I want to be better at.
Speaker #0
But I also don't put in the time and effort yet. So I cannot expect myself to be an instant expert tomorrow if I don't put in the effort. And even if I would put in a lot of effort today, I know I'm not going to be an expert tomorrow. I need to apply that stuff, apply the knowledge, whether that's on LLMs, on Gen AI, on gigantic AI, on the whole shebam. I need to apply that to become better and gradually better at it. It's just an unrealistic expectation. I think... That's also coming back to goals. That's where a lot of people flunk out on their goals because it takes too much time. It takes too much effort. They have to grind too long and too often and too difficultly. That's an interesting word. But sometimes things are too challenging and it just takes too much time for people to truly persevere in the achievement of their goals.
Speaker #1
Right. Microsoft just made a dollar because you said agentic AI. I had never heard that phrase until like two weeks ago. And now I think I've heard it every day for the last week. So some marketing person somewhere is like,
Speaker #0
it's a good thing. Yeah,
Speaker #1
it is. Well, and to connect this back to Van Gogh, what you see well in the museum here in Amsterdam is the growth, right? And you hear in the audio tour about how he got better. And in between painting, was talking to his peers. He was observing life. He was focusing on getting better and innovating. That's one of the other big takeaways ahead is, you know, in the world of fine art, Van Gogh was by no means one of the early ones, right? You know, in the grand scheme of things, people had been painting for shitloads of time before him. But they were finding new pigments at the time, finding new brushstrokes. types, finding new techniques, entirely new techniques, some of which he invented or mastered or whatever. But that's another thing I took away is, you know, this person that we now in hindsight see as, you know, one of the luminaries of an entire genre of art, started at 27, learned from his peers, actively sought out in spur, like all these things that apply to almost any domain. Yeah. Right? And the point there is not that anybody can be the next Van Gogh or that you should strive to be that level. But it's don't put people like this on a pedestal because they had to slog through it. And I wonder if maybe they were just born talented, right? Or could it be the way that they approached work?
Speaker #0
It's probably a little bit of both. It's the same with the idea of bodybuilding. bodybuilders get looked at. They just use steroids. So the automatic, no, that's not how that shit works. You still have to put in the effort. You still have to slave away at the gym. You still have to be super strict about your diet. It's not going to be because you put a needle up your ass that all of a sudden, bam, you're a balloon. No, you still have to put in all the effort. So even if you have a talent, you still have to do it. You still have to use it. You still have to find your way. to actually apply that stuff and become super good at what you're doing. And even with a lot of artists and painters, et cetera, some of that stuff doesn't even get appreciated until you die.
Speaker #1
I'm going to purposely be vague. Do you know what two of the funniest words to me are? Okay, don't answer that. With dimple. Hear me out. Here's the story. Yes. Okay. This is a total effing tangent. Okay. years ago, 15 years ago, I was working at a company and I was on the leadership team. So I got shared calendars from all the executives, which is no big deal, right? To share meetings. It's like, basically, we had just decided we need to show each other where we're at instead of just when we're busy so that certain things can be booked over, not booked over, right? Whatever we were inspecting and adapting, scheduling issues. I was looking at one of my colleagues' calendars and I saw this big time block and I'm like, whoa, why can't I schedule this time with them? And it was blah, blah, blah, Dr. So-and-so for chin implant dash with dimple. I don't know why, but the with dimple just, it just killed me.
Speaker #0
It's a feature.
Speaker #1
It's a feature, right? And I was literally laughing at my desk and I'm like, oh my God. I mean, the amount of vanity to take the time to type that in your own Outload calendar with Dimple as if the doctor was going to be, as if you're going to be sitting there in the chair like, oh, hey doc, by the way.
Speaker #0
Here's some acceptance criteria.
Speaker #1
Don't forget the dimple. Here's some acceptance criteria, right? Like I don't... So a friend of mine was also on this team and also the same, right? I'm like, hey, go try and schedule a meeting on this certain day with this person. And he didn't even... Like I got the little dot, dot, dot of the day that says he was IMing me in the company I am. And then it went away. And I'm like, ooh, he's writing a long message. And then he comes bursting into my office like the damn Kool-Aid man. His face is red. He's like, can you believe this? Oh, my God. And they had known each other for like 25 years. And he's like, I can't wait to bust his balls about this. It's going to be so fun. Because he put it out there for, you know, like, it's not like we snooped, right? Like, this is.
Speaker #0
I mean, if it's public, if it's in your agenda, if it's in your calendar and everyone can see it.
Speaker #1
Yes. Sorry. Total tangent about something that you said. A little bit of a squirrel brain there.
Speaker #0
Brain squirrel.
Speaker #1
Brain squirrel. Yes. Hashtag, trademark, copyright, brain squirrel. So, and where I'm going with some of this Van Gogh stuff is there's a common phrase out there that no one ever said on their deathbed, I wish I had worked more.
Speaker #0
I don't know.
Speaker #1
I've never been. What do you think of that idea, that sentence?
Speaker #0
Well, A, I cannot verify it because I'm not attending everyone's death. So, I don't know. It's an assumption.
Speaker #1
Have one of your agentic AIs comb the life's history of like, what would that be? I don't know what the Dutch word would be, but like obituary. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Great idea. And some people, let's be honest, put the bitch in obituary.
Speaker #1
Never heard that before.
Speaker #0
There you go.
Speaker #1
Is that when you're happy to see a woman pass away? Sometimes. Or a guy, I guess. Anybody could be a bitch.
Speaker #0
No. It depends on where you look at work, where you want to. put work in. I mean, if you're on your deathbed and it's about more work into your relationships and having a happier life, then yes. If it means going to the office just to slave away for corporate, then no. I don't think anyone is going to be there like, oh, I wish I would have been at a doo-doo company X being there 60 hours a week instead of four. No one's going to be saying that at all.
Speaker #1
Right. And that's where the purpose from autonomy, mastery, and purpose comes from. Like, yeah, if you're some corporate citizen living in some rabbit warren cubicle, I'm pretty sure you're going to say, yeah, I don't wish I had spent more time at work. But when you see people that truly love what they do and work doesn't feel like work or that it's rewarding at a macro level, and I don't think you're alone in the fact that the people around you benefit from... you being good at what you do and enjoying what you do. Not just because maybe you're nicer to be around, but because that passion isn't contagious. It might be lucrative. You might make good money. You might be comfortable. You might have a certain lifestyle. So I do think that there probably is some truth to the fact that loving what you do is a really good thing.
Speaker #0
I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. What makes you happy about your job? What is it that makes you do the thing that you're doing?
Speaker #1
It sounds cliche, but for me, it's really, it's two things. It's about the people, right? The connections I've made, I think it's one of my superpowers is I'm really good over time at making real connections with people, good people, people that, you know, decades in the future, I'm still friends with and consider, you know, they're on my personal Facebook and we share the ups and downs of life, right? Like to me. And I think I've said before, one of the biggest compliments I can get is people who would say, I would kill to do another project with you or I would love to work with you again. Or if you ever can hire me, I would like to me, there is no as a business person. There almost is no better compliment from a people side. The other reason I do what I do is it's kind of a little bit of like spelunking or archaeology. I am hopeful. That being good at what I do and doing what I do and putting more things in the world will somehow put me in the right place at the right time to really do something that I enjoy doing. That brings together what I'm good at doing and what I enjoy. And I was talking to a few people on a break at the conference. And one thing I mentioned to them was recycling or sustainability or permaculture. If I could find a way... to do what I do and do it well with a company like Patagonia or maybe even Doctors Without Borders or a recycling or sustainability type of initiative. And it could even be inside of a big corporate monolith that's got a societal program or an environmental impact. I think I would be the type who would happily throw themselves into that work at the expense of other things to do it well, because it's kind of like the combination of what I enjoy doing, working with people, and what I'm passionate about.
Speaker #0
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Speaker #1
What is my toilet? What are you talking about?
Speaker #0
You would be sitting there for four days. Anyway, do you ever have these days where you're like, I just have to do this so I'll get more money so I can do X faster?
Speaker #1
Yes, all the time. If you had asked me 24 hours before I boarded the plane to come over here a week and a half ago for two weeks, I would have said I would much rather be at home with my dog. my family and on my lawnmower. It's a beautiful spring at home. But I came over here knowing once I get here, I'm going to love it. I'm going to have a blast. But yeah, it pays the bills. It's just great that I have had a blast for the last week and a half doing what I enjoy and being able to benefit. But yeah, there's many days that I feel like that. One of the things we struggle with as a team, so me and the Wiser Bees team have had so much time in person in the last week and a half. And one of the things that I struggle with, and I'm open to advice on this, is at times we have to do something we would rather not do. Or we'd have to do something, teach something, coach something, help people do something in a way that we know is not ideal, but is a step towards better. And… I was naive, you know, I don't know, let's say 12 years ago when I was working at the time of seeing people who are clearly better than me and saying, why would they tell us to do it this way? They have to know this is dumb or this isn't the point. Like, how many times have you and I heard like, that's not the point of agility or that's not scrum. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But y'all ain't ready for whatever that is. Like, I've said a lot on here and I'll shut up talking in just a second. It's like. One of the ways to encourage people to get better is to show them what's possible. So I don't like the phrase, meet people where they are. If you meet people where they are, it's too easy for all of us to be like, well, if this is good enough for them, I guess it's good enough for me, right? Like that's easy. So I like to meet people a little bit away, a little bit, half step, a step from where they're at and take them on field trips, whether a digital field trip or... literal field trip and say this is what the next level could look like or this is what two levels higher could be i have unequivocally had nothing but good luck with that with that that technique but what
Speaker #0
do you think i totally agree with that this is necessary because uh i hate the term meet them where they're at as well but um this kind of compares to i've been doing kickboxing in the past for let's say 10 years and when I started training, I always wanted to do matches, like do kickboxing matches. I've been in training to do matches. Ultimately, I never did them, but you know. If I would be there, like start and just learn the basic movements and positioning and defense, etc. And then I still cannot go into like the scrum, like the picture perfect scrum world of kickboxing and do these matches and go into the ring. I still need to learn how to take a hit, how it feels to take a hit, what it feels the day after to take a hit. And I can tell you that shit hurts. It really hurts. when you get like someone's shinbone against your face. But first you have to take the first step oddly. And that starts with taking like these pads against your legs and have them kicked. And even though it's foam that's like 20 centimeters thick, it will still hurt if you kick in the right way. But you cannot take a hip from one day to the other if it's such a big difference between where you're at right now and where you want to be. Even so, if your coach sees like... They want to be there. But first, we have to train them to do marginal increases so they feel the consequences. They feel how that goes. They build the muscle memory and then slowly start to progressively become better. But you cannot do that from one day to another, even though you see the potential and you want to have them running, but they cannot even crawl yet. They need to have the basic momentum, the basic motion to get there. And that's something that made me think about what you just said.
Speaker #1
How do you feel about when someone says... hey, I'm on board with getting better, with continuous improvement. But whoa, man, you got to dial back your expectations. It's going to take a long time. Maybe you think it's already taking too long. And they're trying to convince you or sell you on the idea that you're still asking or expecting way too much. Not of yourself. This wouldn't really apply to yourself, but of others maybe.
Speaker #0
I think it's a combination of two things I would follow that remark with. A would be, all right, then you better prepare your budget, dude. That's one. Because if it's going to take longer for me to do it, then it's going to take you more money to invest. And also, I think that is making it a little bit too comfortable for yourself. Not from you as a consultant perspective, but more from the client. Like, eh, kind of massages that into, just go easy on us. No, I'm here to do a job. I'm here to make you effective. And that's not going to happen. If I always just sit with you and hold your hand, I'm like, oh, poor baby. No. Sometimes you're going to be uncomfortable. Sometimes you're going to hate me. And sometimes you wish you never started this. And that's good because that's how you grow.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
What do you think?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you said. I found myself recently saying kind of a riff on the, if it's too loud, you're too old. thing of saying, I can go faster and there is a lot more we can do, but I am also taking the lead from the client, right? Part of being a consultant, part of being a coach is allowing the coachee, the consultee to set the pace. But there is a concept in coaching called pace, pace, lead, right? And it really goes to speaking. Like, and what this is talking about and where I first heard about this was in like conflict de-escalation. So part of one of the techniques in conflict de-escalation is if somebody is just super agitated, talking to them in really quiet, soft voice, that is the wrong thing in most people, for most people. So pace, pace, lead means you meet them where they're at. So if they're loud, you're loud. If they're frustrated, you're frustrated. It doesn't mean you argue with them. It doesn't mean you also start screaming. But it's meeting them where they are and kind of then changing it. And that can go up or down. Like if you're trying to motivate or encourage somebody to want more, to be more, to run faster, to do something, it could be pace, pace, lead, like to pull. And in conflict de-escalation, it can be to decrease from a level four conflict down to a level three. And I see that a lot at work and in my personal life. And I think some people do that naturally. Some people probably have learned how to do that, but it's a technique. It frustrates me to, when I know that people are smart enough, they're capable enough, they're able to do more. And I do, I know this might sound bad, everybody, but I'm going to admit it. It does frustrate me sometimes when people that I care about doing work that I am passionate about and that they're passionate about set the bar too low. Right?
Speaker #0
Then what do you do?
Speaker #1
Still figuring it out. Like I don't have a strategy. I can't create you a one page or a one slider on how I do it. But I would say some of the things I do is showing them what good could look like. Taking them to another company, showing them an article, a case study, or just a person that maybe has been where they're at and has improved or grown. I do sometimes what you said, which is asking like, what's the cost of going slow? or going slower. And I'm not even just talking about dollars and cents. Because sometimes, you know, I used to work for a big blue company and they used to talk a lot about, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jim, but that's just blue dollars. I don't know if you've heard this over here, but blue dollars just means it's internal money. It's cross-charging. It's a cost center. And maybe it is, it turns into green money somewhere. It turns into real money, but they're so removed from that. It's just, it's spreadsheet money. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, but it's still time. Like, and it's even if it's blue dollars, it's still it comes off the blue budget, the internal budget, which means you may have less internal dollars to spend on something else. So it's still kind of real, even though it might not come out of their literal pocket. So the cost is, OK, you want me to go slower? You want to take six months to learn taps? Fine. What's that going to do to your arc as a musician? But it's harder when it's work. Like, you know, what's it going to do to the arc of your product? Yeah, whatever. I don't care. I can't say. Who knows? How could anyone know? I'm like, yeah, I know. And that's the problem is many things you don't know until you have hindsight. And then you're like, oh, shit. I wish we had started doing this two years ago. Yeah.
Speaker #0
No shit. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Sometimes to come full circle to the energy vampires. Pulling somebody out of your team can be the impetus to go faster. Or sometimes hiring a single person is what I've seen has totally sparked any of these things. Interest, passion, engagement, whatever. One of the best things that I've seen multiple teams do is hire a test automation person. Because, okay, let's say you got a team of six people and they're great. engineers or maybe they're sort of full stacky, but then they hire somebody who has a skill set that's been lacking. Or maybe they hire a domain expert, like an automation, test automation expert. And that person's like, what the hell are y'all doing? We're going to make this a lot better real fast. And we probably all know those Herculean type people who can just... pick something up and put it on their proverbial shoulders and move it forward like without even being told to do it without being bribed just because they know it's what's needed and it's is what they want to do yes
Speaker #0
and then it feels again so natural and like this it's it's as if these people never had to practice you know it looks like from the from the outside like this is just a god-given talent and you don't have to do anything for it Like the bodybuilders of coaching.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Hey, let's start slowly bringing this one home. Let's pull up ChatGPT.
Speaker #1
Oh, we get to answer the ChatGPT question today? Okay. Can we create our own agent? What if we had a mastering agility agent that just was a powerful question prompt?
Speaker #0
Oh.
Speaker #1
Hashtag product idea.
Speaker #0
Let's see. Hey,
Speaker #1
everybody. While he's looking this up, I'm going to leave you with something I wrote in my phone. A quote from Van Gogh in a letter to his brother. And this stuck with me. I mean, to the point where I stopped and wrote it. It says, I still hope not to work for myself alone. And I think that's a really interesting quote. And the backstory, and please still go give the museum your money, is he took time to create a painting for his newborn nephew, who was also named Vincent, was named after him. And the museum I'm walking through was actually opened by Vincent van Gogh, but not the painter, but by his nephew. And in this letter, he's basically, what I interpret from this and infer from this is, I'm doing this thing that I love for my nephew. But it's, you know, I want my work to be for other people. Right? Yeah. Inspiring.
Speaker #0
It is.
Speaker #1
Because what you and I do is not for us. Like there is some amount of selfish pursuits in it, right? Like I'm not saying we do it as a nonprofit. But we normally do things for the benefit of others.
Speaker #0
Yes. That's true.
Speaker #1
Even this podcast is not for us. Like you and I could have this conversation we have without the mics on.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And also we're not making any money out of this.
Speaker #1
No.
Speaker #0
So we're definitely not doing it. Anyway, coming back to ChatGPT.
Speaker #1
Yes, ChatGPT.
Speaker #0
What assumption am I making that if challenged could open up new possibilities?
Speaker #1
Oh my. gosh, what assumption are you making? I would say, I mean, wow, something doesn't come to mind, but I would say one of the things that I think I hear from you is how busy you are. And I think you're making an assumption, maybe, that you're going to burn out. And that you don't enjoy being busy could be an assumption. And that, or maybe that you don't have enough time to do something. And I don't know. I'm guessing a little bit at some of these, but, um, Ryan Brooke gave you a phenomenal compliment just to me, not to you. So he might get a little upset that I tell you is he's like, he credits you and your tenacity with, with, with finishing the book because, um, you know, you know, we're all working on some initiatives. And we all have the things we're good at. We all have the things we're not good at. We all have our things, right? But, and I've joked with you and busted your chops many times about, you know, brain squirrels and all that stuff. But folks, it's also paired with tenacity, right? So just to compliment for you. So I guess those would be my answers about your assumptions. So, all right, tell me, hit me with it. What assumptions am I making that are limiting me somehow?
Speaker #0
First one, thank you. Thank you for giving me that.
Speaker #1
Well, thank Ryan, but you're welcome.
Speaker #0
And thank you for giving that. I think you, from earlier in this conversation, like the assumption that you're almost too old to start these kinds of things. I think it's, I get it, but I also think it's nonsense. Look at Colonel Sanders. He didn't start KFC until he was in his 60s.
Speaker #1
Can we use someone else for me to aspire to? Okay, I get it. It's another point.
Speaker #0
yes fair point so i think that's that's the thing if if you want to do this do this and there's nothing no one's stopping you but you and i know this is that's an open door as well but don't assume that your
Speaker #1
goals are going to fade out because i know they're just going to continue to stack yeah i need to i need to ruin my my goal tree a little bit right and get rid of some that maybe are not important enough anymore. And maybe they've been replaced by new things that are more important.
Speaker #0
I would say refine your idea backlog. Terrible way to end the show. All right. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Love it. As always, you too. Thank you.
Speaker #2
That is all for today. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, let us know by hitting that like button, share it with friends and colleagues, sharing a message on LinkedIn, joining our warm and welcoming Discord community, or attend recordings as a virtual audience. You can find all the relevant links in the show notes. We hope you'll tune back in for the next episode of the Mastering Agility podcast.

About Mastering Agility

Why is it that products are so hard to develop and deliver?

How can we truly deliver value with so many different variables that can affect the outcome?

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Mastering Agility

Why is it that products are so hard to develop and deliver?

How can we truly deliver value with so many different variables that can affect the outcome?

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

They also tackle workplace dynamics, including how to deal with energy vampires on teams, giving and receiving feedback effectively, and staying authentic even when the work gets tough.

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