Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Hi, it's Pauline from Meet the Expats. Today I meet with Nancy Hunter, who is an expat. She has lived in Switzerland and Denmark in the past 20 years, gone back to the US twice, and through her journey has managed her career and also navigated, unfortunately, the death of immediate family. So we're going to go through that story about grief, but also you know, change going back to the US and everything that goes with expat life, basically. Hi, Nancy. How are you?

• Speaker #1

  Hi, Pauline. I'm good. Thanks for having me on your show.

• Speaker #0

  I'm excited to hear your fascinating story for sure. I'll let you introduce yourself briefly, and then we'll go into the beginning of the journey.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So let's see, I have been kind of living the expat life on and off over the years, as you said in your introduction. And A lot of that for me was predicated on having a career in the pharma and biotech space. So I have to give a lot of credit to those companies for allowing me the chance to live and work abroad. Great international companies. Yeah, exactly. Big international companies. It makes the paperwork easier, right? The HR departments are quite helpful.

• Speaker #0

  For sure.

• Speaker #1

  So that's kind of how my whole journey got started. And it's been good. I mean, And I love living the expat life. I think I'll probably always go back and forth over the pond somehow. It just seems to fit. So, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. And so was this something you always wanted at some point to move abroad? Or did it just come up through your job and through the companies you were at?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think, good question. You know, I've reflected on this a lot because other people have asked, and I think probably what started it for me. So. I may have mentioned that my, when we were chatting earlier on email, that my mom had cancer when I was a kid. So I was about six months old and she was in the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. And so I spent a lot of time as a kid going to the Mayo Clinic with her, visiting oncologists. And at that time in the U.S., many of the, like, you know, sheikhs were coming in with their flowing robes. So we had a lot of, like, Arabic, you know, coming in. Oh, wow. travelers. And this was in Minnesota. So you could imagine, Pauline, how like these small kids coming from the West or the Midwest, and all of a sudden you're seeing all these exotic, wonderful looking people just going, wow, what is this? And they had a lot of folks from Europe, but I just really remember early memories of watching people from the Middle East come through for treatment. And I thought, this is so cool. Like, I like this environment. I like. being with people from all around the world. They had translators with them, right? So I was hearing this. And I think somehow that embedded really deeply in me. And my parents also helped to stoke some of that. So we had Crow Native American kids as foster kids in my family. So that's also like an intercultural way that we were integrating and they were integrating with us when I was growing up. Also, I had a brother who was adopted. So I think I've just been in these very different kinds of cultural...

• Speaker #0

  Very mixed family in the end. Lots of pieces coming together. Wow.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, which you wouldn't expect in the middle of Montana, like a very traditionally boring white kind of part of the country, right? But all of a sudden, I started having all these fun cultural experiences. And so when I was working my way through college, thinking about what I want to do, I really knew I wanted to live and work internationally. That was something that struck a chord. And so I focused my MBA at Pepperdine on global business, which then allowed me to do a little bit of coursework at Oxford in the UK, which was great. We went on a seminar in China, all through China and into Tibet even. So that was great because I had not had Asian experience before. You know, I'd been to Europe, but certainly not Asia. So I just really. continue to be drawn to sort of opening up my eyes and opening up where I could be in the world and how I could contribute. So that's how it got started. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  All right. So yeah, it started quite deeply early on. I think so.

• Speaker #1

  I think so. I didn't necessarily have a normal childhood, and I think that was all right. It was, you know, it was a different way to be, and certainly I was having different experiences.

• Speaker #0

  But I guess that sort of shapes also that mindset to go abroad and do something different. And once you arrive. It's fine, you know, I'm just ready for it.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I think like, you know, well, too, that if you're kind of choosing that expat life, you really rely on yourself a lot. And you know, yeah,

• Speaker #0

  but I think you discover it once you're there. Exactly right. Like if you didn't before, you know it now. You know, you can do it now.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. But I do think some of that independence and the self-reliance piece is really a good underpinning. And I had that early on just because of. my family situation and what was happening. So I think that also set me up for success, to be honest. So yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Let's fast forward then you're working in these large pharma medical brands. How does your first like big move come up and how do you navigate it?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's a good question. So I owe a lot to Bob Azelby at Amgen for allowing me the chance. to really move abroad and move my career in another direction. So I had a lot of support from my senior management team at Amgen to go to Zug. So at the time, I would be living in Zurich, Switzerland, but working in Zug. Okay. And yeah, there were two job opportunities that came up, and I was talking to the management teams over there, and we decided on a fit, and that's why I made the move. So, yeah, again, I can't stress enough how. My opportunities have really been shaped by what these corporations have allowed me to do. Yeah, exactly.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, it's great when they're there and you can actually see them. Totally.

• Speaker #1

  It's totally great. And again, like kind of still pulling on that thread a little bit, you know, there were other expats there like me. So all of a sudden you start having really interesting friends, right? Italian friends, French friends. Swiss friends, everybody kind of coming together and people who have lived and worked abroad before and who are either raising all these, you know, multicultural families or families who speak multiple languages. It just really enriches your life. And I think that's what I was drawn to. And that's why I stayed so long. I was in Switzerland for about six years.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, yeah. So pretty.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So pretty long time. And, you know, as you live in a country for a long time, you definitely start. really changing at a core level. And I remember coming back to the US and going to Costco, you know, those big bulk stores. Yeah, because I know you have them in France. And I was overwhelmed. I literally wanted just to sit down because the Migros and the Cope grocery store, there was nothing. They're tiny in Switzerland.

• Speaker #0

  It's like in Paris. It's like the city, the city stop shops,

• Speaker #1

  basically. Totally. And then all of a sudden, you have like these massive warehouses. And I remember feeling overwhelmed. I thought, oh my God, this is interesting. This is definitely reverse culture shock. And I had to turn around to go out to the car because I was like, I just need a minute.

• Speaker #0

  Wow. I need a minute.

• Speaker #1

  I need to decompress because it was like overwhelming. And which is strange as an American, because obviously I had done that a lot before and it didn't phase me. But after so many years, you really do become rewired, maybe is a good way to say it. So yeah, interesting.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, definitely. That's funny to see. How much, yeah, just that small little thing that you were so used to just becomes impossible coming back after.

• Speaker #1

  Coming back.

• Speaker #0

  I think when we talk about reverse culture shock, sometimes we just think of, oh, just general feeling of not feeling in place. But we never really pinpoint those tiny things that are just so complicated after a few years.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and you'll appreciate this one. And so. I also had a time, excuse me, I had a time when I was at the airport. And, you know, in Europe, really, when you're standing in line at the airport, nobody talks to anybody, right? We're quiet. There's not music playing. Everybody's keeping their voice low, right? You're just kind of existing. But in America, people talk to you when you're standing in line at the airport, right? Or when you go to the ticket counter. Where are you coming from? Yeah, exactly. And coming back again from Switzerland, I was like, oh, my God, this feels so invasive. Like. Like, who are these people? Why are they asking me questions? And then I'm like, okay, kind of, you got to flip into your American side.

• Speaker #0

  Flip back, yeah. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  flip back, right? You have to adjust, exactly.

• Speaker #0

  All right. Coming back to Switzerland more specifically. So you, I know in the back and forth of emails, you mentioned a little bit that cultural difference in terms of work. You were moving with work. So you were in the same company. But how did you adapt and just sort of intake this new environment of work specifically?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, two things to that. One, I was lucky enough to have what I'd call like a cultural attache assigned to me. So I had a few.

• Speaker #0

  Wow.

• Speaker #1

  I know, which is, again, that's the plus of a corporation, at least at the time. I don't think many corporations are doing what they did.

• Speaker #0

  It's the first time I hear about it.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, okay, cool. All right. So this is good to know. So when I moved in 2014, pharma companies, at least back then, were still giving kind of these more complete packages where they really wanted. you to be successful when you move to a new country, right? Because I'm a reflection of them. They want me to have a good experience. And obviously, yeah, they want me to have a high quality work output, right? So I had a cultural attache where I had a few sessions, maybe three or four with her, and I could chat about what it was like for me to integrate into Swiss society. So she was sort of a safe zone where she wasn't attached to the company and she wasn't- Okay, so she was external. Yeah, so she was external, which was good. So you could say whatever it was you needed to say. And one thing that stuck out in my mind that she taught me is just remember, when you move to a new country, you can keep the things you like and you can let go of the things you don't. So she gave that kind of metaphor of a backpack, right? Just fill your backpack with the stuff you love about the country and let go of the stuff that you don't want to integrate.

• Speaker #0

  Do you mean of the old country or of the new country? Well,

• Speaker #1

  Of the new country and, you know, also, I guess, of the old too, right? Like Americans have a tendency to talk really loud and can be a bit overwhelming. Like I definitely worked on dialing that down. I had, I know it's, well, any tourist in Paris. I've heard that a lot. Yeah, exactly. Any Parisian can say, please, the American tourist.

• Speaker #0

  I've heard that so many times. I get it.

• Speaker #1

  Right. And so like another kind of key piece to that is I had a good. Swiss friend who was on a work team and she said one day she pulled me aside and she said hey listen you're way too positive like this is coming off kind of like saccharine sweet you know we can't really buy this over here and I was thinking oh my god I'm just kind of enthusiastic right like I really we're trying to launch this drug there's a lot of good energy you know we have to do a lot of work all the time and she's like you might just want to like dial it back a little and I tell you, that was great advice. And so I worked on that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I mean, I completely get it. And I do feel the same way at the same time. And in a way, I also try to see both sides and sometimes wonder, but can we not let people just be themselves? And that's what I find very hard is where is that limit of how much of yourself can you actually be?

• Speaker #1

  Right.

• Speaker #0

  in this environment.

• Speaker #1

  I think you bring up a good question. And I think some of it is, you know, if you're going to be an expat and you want to be successful at it, you have to be okay.

• Speaker #0

  You have to play along with the game. But in any company, it's a little bit like that. You have to play along with the politics or whatever it is.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I think you have to be willing to pull pieces out of yourself and look at them, which you don't do when you're living in your home culture, right?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, because you're the norm. Because yeah,

• Speaker #1

  exactly. You're kind of surrounded by what you know. And so that was, she gave me really, really great advice. And so I was able to kind of step outside of myself and start looking at my behaviors and adjusting them. And honestly, she was right. It didn't make a difference.

• Speaker #0

  Because we- So you felt that the relationships shifted also.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Because I think once you're willing to change and show that you like being in the country, you want to work with the team. you're happy to adjust, then also the people feel like, okay, well, you know, she's, she's taking this seriously. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  we can work together.

• Speaker #1

  And we can work together. So I just remember that it was a watershed moment. And I owe her a lot for that comment.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, but I mean, it's amazing how much effort they actually put into the expats move. And it's great, because I mean, it definitely makes it much more successful, the fact that there's an entire support and it's just not financial. It's also really the mental health and the whole adjustment of life.

• Speaker #1

  And I think that's really, really important. Even if people don't move with a corporation, right? If you could find a local who maybe has lived and worked in other countries, just to have someone as a touchstone to say, hey, is this normal? I'm feeling this. How is that? You know, how could you see it? Am I overreacting, underreacting? It's just good to

• Speaker #0

  you know have people to bounce things off of so that was yeah that was a good part of that move for sure okay um let's move on to the bit more touchy topic about Grief piece. I know when we move abroad, we miss things. You're far from family. And yeah, unfortunately, things happen. You don't always make it back on time. Can you talk us through a little bit that piece and how you were able to manage it also?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think that's, as you know, right, because you're living the life too. That is one of the hardest pieces with being an expat is that. You miss big milestones with your families and your extended families. And you sort of become like, you know, a little planet that orbits on the outside sometime of that family, core family stuff. So in my case, you know, I was in Switzerland for about six years. And then when COVID hit, I had the opportunity with the company I was working for at the time to either take a job in Boston or take. just a package, right? Because they were starting to reorg, et cetera. So I decided to take the package and I really did it based on a big gut feeling that I had that something was not going to be right in my family. And when I talk about my family, it was my mom and dad. And then I have a brother who had Asperger's, rheumatoid arthritis, a lot of health complications. So lovely, but he had so many challenges, right? That he was dealing with. So I went with my gut feeling and I said, okay, I'll take the package. I ended up moving back to the US and then probably a week later, not thanks to me, by the way, thanks to my brother, who had came over for birthday cake. It was my birthday. And he was asymptomatic with COVID and then gave my mom, dad, and I COVID. And none of us knew that because he wasn't expressing any symptoms. Exactly. So it's not. like obviously his fault it was just yeah no of course I mean everyone can get you don't always yeah totally and you know this was before the vaccines had come out right so I think this was maybe 2020 in that time period and or 2019 the I had gotten pretty sick so I was down for about two months. My dad, however, was one of these that... was hit really hard and we had to take him to the hospital and he even had to go through rehabilitation and my mom had gotten it but she bounced back quicker than anyone. So that whole COVID kind of piece kicked off some downstream effects in my family and after COVID I stayed in the U.S. and I was working for a startup company and my mom's cancer came back and she had been struggling with heart disease. heart failure. And so that had also kicked into another gear. And she was starting to go through the early stages of decline. So yeah, and it was as sad as that is to go through, I was so grateful that I had the opportunity to be back in the US at that time. To be there. Yeah, because honestly, as you probably know, or if you have friends who have parents who are aging, there's a lot of guilt sometimes that comes along with being an expat and living and working outside, being two, three thousand miles away. And so I had time to be with my mom, probably about a good year and a half before she had really, really, really gotten to... Yeah, exactly. And then I ended up moving over to Denmark and two weeks after I had moved to Copenhagen, my mom passed away. And yeah... That was an interesting story too. I'd gotten a phone call from my best friend's mom, who was kind of my second mother. When my mom was going through cancer treatments, I would stay with my best friend, Wendy and her mom. And my friend's mom, Renee called me on FaceTime and she usually, you know, doesn't like use video or whatever. And she talked to me for an hour and started reminiscing about my mom and about, you know, her cancer journey. and heart disease journey and just what we had all gone through as a community. And when I hung up the phone, I thought, that's really weird. You know, it's weird that she would call me. No. And my mom was still alive when she did that the very next day.

• Speaker #0

  But she felt it. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And somehow, somehow Renee felt that. So the very next day, my mom ended up going into the hospital and she passed away that night. And so it was such a strange combination of being connected. when I was sitting in my temporary apartment in Copenhagen and having this really long phone call with my second mom, and then my mother passed away the very next day. So I had to fly immediately back to Montana, do all of the funeral preparations. There's a lot of paperwork that comes with death. It's kind of overwhelming. And then you're grieving and trying to do everything. And so. I've been fortunate from the standpoint that I've been given kind of these moments of break in my career, where I was able to choose what I wanted to be doing next, and that sort of helped buffer it. But I have good friends in Denmark who are trying to manage their aging parents, you know, from miles away, and it is overwhelming. And you don't ever feel like you're doing a good job, and you wish that you could be there. You're not in control of a lot,

• Speaker #0

  unfortunately, when you're that far.

• Speaker #1

  100%. Yeah, exactly. And you sometimes feel selfish, right? Like, it's like, okay, I'm living, I'm choosing to live this life where I'm in another country. But also, you can't stop what's happening anyway.

• Speaker #0

  Well, yeah, I think there's that piece of you can't stop your life either. And at the same time, there's also that I think there's a piece where the parents don't share that much over the phone. It's the conversations that you have as they're not as frequent with especially with time zone changes it just makes it so complicated that you're not on the phone every day and so it's more about catching up on the big information than actually going deep into like the day-to-day and getting to that point where they feel free to share what's actually going on and I think they're also scared to put that stress on you. probably don't overshare what's going on either, unfortunately.

• Speaker #1

  I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think most parents want their children, like I'm sure your parents think you're doing wonderful things and you are, right? And it's exciting to watch you succeed. And you're right, you don't want to feel like a burden, but also it's hard to manage an aging parent if you don't know the truth. So what I started doing, which I'm sure many of your listeners do in my situation as well, is talk to the neighbors a lot right we had very good find that person of trust that totally and say okay what's really going on did you stop over the other day you know how is she looking how is he feeling etc yeah yeah i actually see that with my grandmother where she's lucky enough to have

• Speaker #0

  these very close neighbors that we've known for forever because my parents live 800 kilometers away from her so no one's close to interfere if something happens but there is that trust relationship with And with neighbors and deeds or a close family that might be around who has that external eye on a day to day, that's me.

• Speaker #1

  And it takes a village, right? It does really, you really do need additional people to help if you're going to live abroad successfully. So, yeah, so that's been an interesting piece. And then my brother passed away in January of this year, and that was very unexpected. So I was lucky enough to see him over the Christmas holiday. had gone back to Copenhagen. I think I was back in the city three weeks and I got a random phone call from my dad. I'm going down to meet the coroner. Your brother has passed away. And it was just sudden, very sudden. So yeah, sudden death due to complications from uncontrolled diabetes, I think is eventually what the coroner landed on. But that one took me by surprise because I thought I was probably going to need to move back to the U.S. at some point and help support my brother just because he had so many health challenges. And I was prepared to do that, right? That was always in the back of my mind, which was part of why I think I liked living the expat life. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  because now is the time where you get to focus on yourself also.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And so, you know, you're having a great career, you're doing things, you're trying to make money because I was always thinking in the back of my mind, I've got a brother I need to support. So there's two of us I need to. care for. And so, yeah, his death has really thrown me. So now it's just my dad and I, and I made the choice to move back to where my dad is in Montana. So I'm now a lot closer to him. And I think that's the right thing. But yeah, I think death and unpredictability of life really throws a wrench into, you know.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I mean, I think even if. You're not an expat. It's definitely going to shift something. You have that realization that people are going to leave at some point, so I have to be there. But when you're that far, you start counting how many times are you going to see them.

• Speaker #1

  Right.

• Speaker #0

  And just making that choice at some point of, well, I think now is the time and maybe later I'll go back out.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's not like death is predictable, right? So I think to the, yeah, I think it's also important to, and your listeners know this quite well, it's expensive when you're an expat, right? You're always, when you're flying back and you're doing everything and absorbing all the cost. So I ended up flying back, you know, quite a bit with all the challenges going on. And after a while you just kind of go, gosh, is this worth it? Or should I like live around the corner.

• Speaker #0

  because yeah yeah it does add up from time and cost etc too and just the stress the emotional the emotional piece of course of having that fear being that far away not being

• Speaker #1

  there can can overtake in some cases yes exactly and you also feel i think frustrated because you can't physically be there to do things you know and there's like i have a friend who's got a an app um Avonlea Cares. And so she's created this app to help people with their aging parents get medication or groceries sent, you know, to their door, which is nice because you can try to manage things remotely. But sometimes you do end up being in situations where you're like, physically, I need to be there. And that can be frustrating when you're an expat because it's sometimes hard to get there. So, yeah. Yeah, I know.

• Speaker #0

  kind of it that's sort of a heavy topic right like yeah but I think it's important to actually cover it I don't think it's I don't think grief is something we actually covered or just a loss of a close one when you're abroad um yeah we haven't had it come up necessarily during during interviews and it does happen and a lot of people say at some point well I indeed I see my parents aging. I want to be close to them. I want to help. And I just want to spend that time. So I get it. I, I was ready to come back also, because I, you know, I felt, okay, weren't right at that stage. But when I came back, I saw sort of a difference of before I had left of, okay, yeah, I'm happy. I'm back, actually, right, to be there and see them more often than I was before.

• Speaker #1

  You're totally right, because you and you do see your parents or your grandparents like age sort of exponentially because you don't see them on a daily basis so I do think sometimes you know it is helpful to have an outside view like we do as an expat because you can say oh gosh okay they've really because I think there's also that bubble when you go back just for a week you know it's

• Speaker #0

  yeah absolutely yeah there's a see them just for a week it's very short they put on their show they're excited to see you and if you stay longer you see the day-to-day kick in again and how well they can be very tired once they've hosted the whole family after Christmas or whatever it's intense so and usually you just left after Christmas so you don't see that tiredness after

• Speaker #1

  Totally. And you know, the longer you're around your parents or your grandparents, the more they keep talking and then eventually stuff comes out.

• Speaker #0

  Then you get the info.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. So you need to hang in there for a while. You're right. That's how it worked for me anyway.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So now that you've been back in the US for quite a while and completely shifted, you started your own company also.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  How is the whole settling in? The context is completely different, of course.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think a couple things on that. So I've been back in the U.S. for five months now. And it's been super fun starting up a company. So it's called Collabio Healthcare. And I'm doing it with other, all of us, by the way, have had expat experiences. So it's a collective of about 10 of us who put this together. We've all had years in pharma and biotech and decided, you know, we really want to start our own company. And we're getting to that. point where it's just starting to tip over. So everything's hitting at once, which is great. And it's very exciting. And being able to be a part of a founding group has given me more autonomy and control of my time. And that's been helpful because, you know, my dad is 78 and he's also getting to the point where I'm having to do things right. So he's not on the computer. So I'm doing his banking or I'm helping him with certain things. Yeah, exactly. And it's been so nice to be able to be back in the U.S. where I can help him hands on. Like we had to get his house painted this past week. And he doesn't want to do any of that. He doesn't want to coordinate anything. He wants to make no decisions. He doesn't want to change. Right. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  I don't even want to get a house painted. You know, no one does.

• Speaker #1

  Right. And it's expensive and he's on a pension. Right. And so, you know, you have all that stuff to to weigh out. And so it's been. Great, honestly. I've been telling friends I'm so full of joy, and I feel that way because

• Speaker #0

  Again, I'm doing something I've wanted to do, which was being an entrepreneur. Yeah, it was your decision. Yeah, and it was my decision. You're right. And I had control over that. And also, you know, politically right now in the U.S., there are crazy things happening. This is not, many of my expat friends were like, why in the world would you choose to go back? Would you be back now? Like, you have horrible timing, let's be clear. And so I've, you know, and... they're not wrong. I mean, there is a lot of upheaval happening. And so just being able to focus on starting a company, focus on my dad, reconnect with all my friends. Like I had such good friends growing up in Montana. And, you know, like my friend Wendy, and I have a friend here in town, Rika. It's been so nice to just get back with them and catch up on life. Because they knew me as a kid. We went to elementary school and middle school and high school together.

• Speaker #1

  Like you're able to reconnect in the same place.

• Speaker #0

  I know, right? It's great. Not, of course, not everybody in my class stuck around, right? But some of them did. And it's nice to come back to where you grew up and just be accepted. And they're happy. They're like, look at what you've done. Isn't this awesome? And, you know, come back and then lend your expertise to the community. Because like my state here in Montana, it's grown and changed a lot. I've been talking to many people about how the biotech scene is burgeoning here. It's really, really growing. And there's been a shift in capital infusion into the state. There's been more people coming here. And so I've been pleasantly surprised that the state is growing in the industry, you know, that I've spent my career in. And I'm happy to help and contribute. And I think that it's just, again, timing. And this isn't timing. I could tell you I was trying to map out or game or choose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's just...

• Speaker #1

  It might happen and this is how it's meant to be. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  and this is how it's playing out. And I also think, too, you know, as an expat, you really have to be true to yourself. You know, you've got to, like, even you mentioned it earlier, you need to know when it's time to move or you need to know when it's time to make a shift, right? Because you can't just stay one course for your whole entire existence. I don't know many people who get that luxury, you know. I had to move around for my career, some of it by choice, but also some of it being opportunistic. If I wanted to continue to grow in my skill set, that's the choice that I made. So you do sacrifice a lot as an expat, but I think it's worth it. I don't regret any of my choices, you know, the good and the bad. And there's lots of nights where you're crying, you know, where you're just like, oh, my God, I'm so sick of this.

• Speaker #1

  Why am I here?

• Speaker #0

  Why did I do this to myself? Yeah. And, um, I think even through all of that, you know, being an expat can be super lonely, especially at the beginning before you find your friends or before you sort of. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  the big tight knit circle. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. You're kind of roaming around town, stopping at coffee shops, you know, being a little bit of a tourist, but thinking, OK, I'm going to go back to an empty apartment. Like I need to get some friends. Yeah. Yeah. So. I don't know that many people talk about that either. There's a lot of ups and a lot of downs.

• Speaker #1

  I mean, yeah, yeah, we definitely talk about that. And the fact that you really need to get out there to make friends and just be very proactive about it, which also I think goes with adult life of once you finish college and if you move after that, you know, it's harder to make friends and you have to get out there a little bit more. but I expect exponentially when you move abroad I guess because you won't have that circle that circle of old childhood friends but I'm pretty amazed when you the way that just life has fallen into place back in Montana with you finding reconnecting with those old friends and it it's just the way you say it it seems like yeah 20 30 years whatever have passed but it's just there and the new cycle has just started with them, plus the new environment and everything. It just doesn't seem like there's any issue with reverse culture shock at all, which is pretty nice.

• Speaker #0

  It's pretty nice, but also, you know, I have my days, right? Like, it's not that all of this is seamless. And it was really helpful when I first moved back from Denmark to just sort of take some time over the summer and focus on my dad. Like, Like you're just doing stuff like, let me get the lawnmower fixed or, oh, you need a cataract surgery. Great. Let's schedule that. You know, and it sort of it allows you to kind of get back into the.

• Speaker #1

  Get in. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Right. You know, and get to meet his doctors. And then, you know, my family is Christian. And so go back to church and talk to everybody there. And that sense of like community and kind of. Starting to tell the story. It does. And I think that's what makes it easier to, but you've got to be willing, just like you said, you've got to be willing to go out and make friends, but you also have to be willing to kind of. be a little vulnerable and share your story with people. And I think most people are interested in that.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah. I think they always are.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, because it's fun to hear about somebody's life and what are you doing that I'm not doing. And yeah, so that's been good. Yeah, right. Would you do it again? I don't know. So we'll see.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. Well, thank you so much. Let's finish with your recommendations. Would you want to do them in... Montana or in the United States?

• Speaker #0

  Oh, that's a good one. How about if I do a couple of both? So we can mix it up. If somebody happens to be in one country or the other. So I gave some thought to this. So when I first moved to Copenhagen, there were two places that I hung out at a lot that were really expat friendly. So one was a restaurant called Zahida. And I would recommend people check that out in downtown Copenhagen. It is killer food. excellent excellent food and the vibe is super fun I have had more conversations there that were just enjoyable I brought friends from the U.S. there I hung out with Danish friends there and I really recommend that place I also love Union Kitchen that's a great spot that place had kind of like an American brunch menu you know like a little avocado toast some pancakes whatever I kind of like that once in a while so I'd recommend Union Kitchen um and then You know, in Montana, there are so many places. So if people come out to go fly fishing or skiing or hiking, you know, in Billings or Bozeman, Missoula, there's a lot of great places. But one of my favorite coffee shops in town, like in Billings, Bozeman, that area is City Brew. They're like a local coffee shop. The people are so nice. When I came back, I kept saying to my dad, the staff, why are they so nice? And some of this is that American service culture. Right.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Where I was clicking back into that.

• Speaker #1

  Especially coming from the Nordics, you know. Totally.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. That was quite different. You're right. But, you know, a lot of them are like kind of high school, early college kids and they just want to chat and they're sweet. So I recommend City Brew. It's a good local spot. Yeah. That is a good question. So I gave that some thought too. So there's an old hymn that I grew up with as a kid. That's. Uh, it's like great as your faithfulness. And it kind of makes me tear up because I think as I went through like the death of my mom and my brother, you sort of have to, at least for me, it's been really great to, um, to tag in with my faith, you know, and just have that be no matter where I live in the world, like it's a good underpinning. Right. And I don't know why I get emotional talking about that, but It's a song that like I grew up with in my family and it means a lot to me. And so just kind of remembering no matter what I'm going through, if it's working, not working, if it's really tough, you know, like whatever's going on with a move or you're trying to sign a lease in another language or whatever, right? All these tough things that we do that, you know, there's faithfulness throughout that. So that would be my song. Yeah, it's a good old hymn. It's not something probably most people would pick, but for me, it kind of runs in the back of my mind that, yeah, there's a strong foundation.

• Speaker #1

  Well, thank you so much for sharing, for being vulnerable, definitely. And yeah, just giving the full story as it is. And as usual, you can find everything, all the places in the comments and keep the updates on Instagram. and you can also put a... five-star rating on apple podcast or spotify do that thanks pauline it's fun to be on your podcast appreciate it