This Is What Authenticity Really Looks Like | Clint Bruce | Men Talking Mindfulness: Mental, Physical, and Emotional Fitness to Elevate Performance and Resilience for Leaders and Teams Under Pressure!

Description

Former Navy SEAL, NFL player, and entrepreneur Clint Bruce opens up about the war most men never talk about—the battle to stay real in a world that rewards performance.

From the ball field to the battlefield to the boardroom, Clint reveals how chasing an image nearly broke him, and why authenticity is the hardest - and most important—fight of all.

Throughout this raw conversation, we explore purpose, transition, the power of curiosity, and what it really means to define your own high ground.

Feeling stuck? If you need help getting out of your rut, Will can help - head to willnotfear.com to learn more about his coaching will get you off the hamster wheel and start making better decisions.

More from MTM at: https://mentalkingmindfulness.com/

Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction
02:19 - From Football MVP to Leadership Advocate
03:24 - Grounding Practices and Personal Reflections
04:40 - Finding and Maintaining Your High Ground
06:36 - Navigating Life's Maps: Lessons from the Field
12:08 - Lessons from Battlefields to Boardrooms
15:16 - Understanding the Human Performance Systems
17:33 - Navigating Identity and Purpose in Business
19:12 - From High-Speed Feedback to Uncertainty
23:33 - The Importance of Curiosity and Asking for Help
26:54 - Embracing Hardship and Overcoming Quit Mentality
30:19 - The Achievement Equation: Angles, Allies, and Advantages
33:21 - Forging Camaraderie Through Suffering and Curiosity
46:13 - Self-Awareness and Intentionality in Personal Choices
47:21 - Intentionalism and Self-Awareness in Running
01:33:04 - A Journey of Remembrance and Celebration
01:38:19 - Choosing Sadness: The Power of Authenticity and Connection
01:46:49 - Awkward Lunch and Draft Dilemmas
01:47:16 - Overcoming Doubt: A Football Player's Journey
01:48:05 - Closing Thoughts and Gratitude

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Transcription

Speaker #0
currency isn't money currency is the value proposition upon which you make decisions john i've been places in the world where the dollar has no significance yeah but a carton of cigarettes is gold you know and gold only matters in places where beauty is is appreciated right so what's the currency and we all have this currency and you need to do some deep dive and understand what your currency is if you and i are fighting and i'm remembering and you're learning i'm gonna win because remembering is faster than learning and it's like real i'm like no it's like you're still gonna learn for me kuros is a cat yeah and the last thing is you know kuros criteria it's a it's courage it's creators catalyst and that's complacency and complacency is a kill it's in the supply chain of every disaster every it's in the cocktail of any it's just always there and people tell them like man there's no for me there's no discipline about not being complacent other than just staying curious like curiosity complacency they're incompatible like they're so if you're curious not asking questions by default you reject complacency So there's no like how to become this one. I always think curious because if I stay curious by default, I'm injecting. Right.
Speaker #1
Raw, uncut, unapologetic. Welcome to Men Talking Mindfulness.
Speaker #2
All right, everyone. Welcome back to Men Talking Mindfulness. We're actually recording here in studio here in Dallas. We're in Dallas, Texas, and I'm here in Purposeful Productions. So thank you for this, Austin, for the point.
Speaker #0
You know, we want to run the litigation. Purposeful Productions.
Speaker #2
Purposeful. productions in Plano.
Speaker #0
Frisco, Canada.
Speaker #2
We're actually in Plano.
Speaker #1
We're in Plano. Okay, sorry.
Speaker #0
You know,
Speaker #1
don't let the door let you fuck it all up.
Speaker #0
We can sideway people pretty quick.
Speaker #1
Don't get sad.
Speaker #0
It's like saying, hey, are you from Brooklyn? No, I'm from the Bronx. And just lump it up.
Speaker #1
Okay, all right.
Speaker #0
Very true. Maybe not that. That's a pretty.
Speaker #1
I don't know where the hell I am. You know,
Speaker #0
it may not be that.
Speaker #1
I'm on the show. John's waiting to do our intro. No, it's off. No,
Speaker #0
so. In spirit, it's that intense, but not.
Speaker #2
I told you this was going to be a less formal. I love it. I love it. So, like, normally we read our stuff. But, hey, we're here with Clint Bruce. Clint, welcome, brother. Hey,
Speaker #0
thanks, man. Good to be here. Good to be with you all.
Speaker #2
Clint, a fellow former Frogman. He also played in the NFL for a brief stint. He went to the Naval Academy. Yeah. Not one of the best classes, 96. 01 was probably.
Speaker #0
I was 97.
Speaker #2
97,
Speaker #0
aren't you? Yeah, but football in 96. Oh, God. That's what helped me become a 97. Ah, gotcha. Winning football games in 96. there you go yeah everyone the aloha bowl we want a bowl game you can go oh thank you yeah but mbp at that game a athletic overachievement academic under that's how you is it's an arbitrage between athletic and and all bra no brains got that was always but i was trying i'm good i tell me it's like hey listen if you try the instructors as long as it's within their moral and ethical spectrum they'll like he's trying i like that he was trying he's just dumb
Speaker #2
Hardly.
Speaker #1
We'll carry you in this conversation. No, we got you. We'll carry you in this conversation.
Speaker #2
So anyway, after transitioning from active duty, Clint, you founded multiple businesses, nonprofits. They're all rooted in leadership, service, and purpose. And you speak widely on community, vulnerability, and living with intention. And that's a lot of what we're going to cover today. Good. We're super excited to get in this conversation. Before we do that, we'll...
Speaker #1
over to your brother not much to like hey like men talking mindfulness for what we're doing check it out like we have you know a lot of stuff coming up but i just want to get in this conversation with with clint uh it's great to have you here thank you i mean we've done a quite a bit of research on you so we're really excited to dive in to see i know it was like we didn't verify uncover like oh you didn't run my fico like my credit like wow um you know your fico is i'm like yeah i know well
Speaker #0
let's let's ground our you feel my you steal my id you're going to lose your eye. You don't talk about ID.
Speaker #1
Well, let's do, we ground our show with doing one breath grounding practice just to kind of chill out a little bit. But we'll just do that one breath now. So maybe close your eyes or just kind of soften a little bit. We'll just start a nice little exhale out your mouth. Let it go. Feel yourself kind of grounding deeper into your seat. And let's take a big inhale through your nose. Bigger breath, a little bit bigger. And let's hold it for three, two, and one. And exhale, let it go. And even our production guy, he said a little prayer for us, which was like, we're definitely in the South. And he was like, he was pilling it on a little prayer. I felt like the Lord coming in for our podcast today.
Speaker #0
That's a prayer you'll let the Mastiffs get cool with. Most of the time, you're like, finish up. Mastiffs are getting cool. You're like, I'll deal with some.
Speaker #2
cool match that is man that's a prayer right there awesome throwing heat exactly um all right man so clint man like i said in the intro there played football at navy played a little bit of football with the saints the ravens i didn't actually talk about the teams um and then clearly you were in the seal teams yeah um And you've done the entrepreneurial work, right? So for guys listening right now, something Will and I have started doing is we want to ask the big picture question right off the bat because some people, hey, they've got two minutes and they can't just do an intro. Yeah. So what do you hope people walk away from this interview with?
Speaker #0
That's all. Yeah, I mean, my passion is helping people define their high ground and then get to it and stay there, you know? Yeah. And define it, get to it. And then what a lot of people don't think about is, hey, man, how do I stay? How do I hold the high ground once I get there? So that's... what I love doing. I love helping guys find the high ground post-service, post-athletic careers, get there and hold it. And sometimes you got to really recalibrate what they think the high ground is,
Speaker #2
right?
Speaker #0
So I love doing that professionally and philanthropically. I feel really blessed to have been able to do that for quite a few years here. So yeah, you have a high ground. You can get to it. It may not be what you thought it was. Often it isn't, but once you find it, get there and hold it. And everybody has the . potential to do that for sure and that for for those who are listening who may not be familiar with what you mean by the high ground what it is yeah so i'm sure you get this i get this all the time you know one of the questions i get asked all the time especially when i'm speaking to groups or teams or whatever especially on room full of men if it's like a football team or something they go hey what's your favorite gun and that's a natural question like there's nothing wrong with it it's probably what i'd ask me too but it's not the question i want to answer so i always pivot off they go hey you're asking what my favorite gun is or what my favorite weapon is and the younger they are and the more male though the faster they'll go it's the same thing but the older they are the more diverse the crowd is yeah kind of nod their head knowingly even if they don't know what the answer is and i'll always lean i go hey listen a gun is a tool a weapon is what i use to win so my favorite weapon is a map map because once i have a map i have everything i know where the bad gal be you know what to come in what to bring with leave how to get home and if we have a map the worst will ever be is wrong but we won't be lost and wrong and lost are different right yeah you know and and i've been both i've been wrong and i've been lost and i hate them both but i will take wrong over lost any day because if you're wrong it's just a matter of realizing it remember where you said you wanted to go availing yourself to the wisdom of those who are there now who have been where you want to go and the camaraderie of those want to get their ballet as you do and then you just got to do the work right but being lost is terrifying like any move could be wrong it's paralytic and yeah And kind of when I describe my life biographically to kind of get to your answer is I describe my life by anybody has their own version of this. This is just I'm a visual guy. I describe my life biographically as I've lived on the ball field, the battlefield, the boardroom and the breakfast table. Now, the ball field describes my season life, literally describes my season life as an athlete. I grew up here, Dallas-Fort Worth area, played football at the Naval Academy, played in the NFL. No one knows I played in the NFL because when I was at the Ravens, I played the same position as Ray Lewis. Oh, he was. he's all right man he was all right and uh yeah i remember you to practice one day this is so this was 1997. so it was his second year and he hadn't become ray yet but we all knew he's like one of the greatest without question and um and he's very cerebral he's very deep very passionate like i tell people like hey that ray you see with the finest like that's him that's there's no pretense there that's just who he is and uh i do remember in a practice one day because i've been selected for the teams too. So here I am. the two, you know, opportunity to play in the NFL and have been selected for the community. And I wanted to serve. There was no part of me that didn't want to serve, but we had done things in such a way that, you know, I could play that first season and then go to Buds and then come back out with kind of a Dave Robinson thing. And I remember at practice one day watching him do something, and I was like, man, it might be easier to come in ABC than it would be out there. So, you know, so the ball to discuss my season live as an athlete what a thought like yeah all right do i beat out ray lewis or do i go or do i make it through something that historically has a 10 percent retention nine percent just like hard huh yeah i mean the math was far in a way more favorable for making it to seal trade yeah and uh you know the the battlefield describes my season life being a a member of the SEAL teams. i love being a member of the seal teams but i love more having been a member of the united states military yeah and john i'll tell you like we're we're one finger on a fist on an arm on a body that is united states military and it was a privilege to to be that finger thank you for service thanks for being worth it man god as well yeah thanks for being worth it and uh yeah appreciate that so and then i like that that response thing yeah being worried about that for i think probably 12 years kind of right after i started carrying load yeah and someone goes He thinks for sure as to go, thanks for being worthy. and kind of caught him off guard. And they go, what do you mean? I said, well, that's what we're thinking. Like, we're over there missing our families, all this other stuff. I'm like, man, I hope these people are worth it. And then you come home and you meet someone that's doing more than they have to for people they don't know. And you're like, okay, they're worth it. So it's like, there's like a reconciliation for us when you're like, okay, they were worth it, right? And so, and the challenge is that he continued to be worth it. And my job is to continue to be worth it because there's some young, strapping young lad on the side of the mountain protecting my freedom now. Sure.
Speaker #2
It's like Tom Hanks. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And so the boardroom describes that season life. Now this is in the breakfast table is the, I mean, we're on that map. Our whole lives were born under a breakfast table. And sometimes that's great. Sometimes it can be better, but then we build a breakfast table. And so that's how I describe my life biographically, the way I run my life. Because if you don't have a map, you're not on a mission. You're on E and E. Right. And you know that as a, as a Red Wings guy. And I go, you know for now i i run my life i kind of guide and govern my life with a ball field mental physical health hey i take care of myself mentally and physically so conform at a high level for the number of days god gives me right the boredom am i providing for myself and my family and those entrusted me in a way that i'm proud of and where you get to keep the trophy right and the breakfast table or my bride and i building girls that love us in the matter to others and all three of those Those are a battlefield at best. Um, Graphically, it's like three discs with one disc going around them, three maps and then in the battlefield, at best, my everyday enemy is entropy and complacency. At worst, I have adversaries and competitors and enemies on these maps. But you tend to take everything more seriously when you realize you're in battle. And so for me, the high ground is where you always want to be on a network, right? And so very visually for me, my whole life is like going, Hey, what's the high ground mentally and physically? What's the high ground? And the boredom was high ground at the breakfast table and the way it would look. And you're seeing this in your mind's eye and I'll explain it for you. Um, there's these, you know, the, the breakfast table is the main party, you know, and then the ball feels like a bounding overwatch and the boredom is a, is like C2. And so these are three concurrent missions occurring at the same time. All they got to be supportive of each other. and um and for me it just works right so when i say what hey what is the high ground like what did you think the high ground was for mental physical performance and that changes over time would you i mean there's nothing more abundant than the disgruntled and depressed millionaire oh yeah so that's not what it is either that's what all of ecclesiastes is like so and and the reason it's so important to me is is you know i'm one of the hardest questions I ever get asked is who's your mentor? It's impossible. It's like, why would I ever deny myself the wisdom of somebody else? I have hundreds of mentors. Like, I'm, you know, and I crave that wisdom. Because if I get to remember what you had to learn the hard way, I don't have to learn it the hard way. Like, I was working with a UFC fighter one time. And I said, hey, man, if you and I are fighting and I'm remembering and you're learning, I'm going to win. Because remembering is faster than learning. And he's like, really? I'm like, no, it's a metaphor. Like, you're still going to learn. You recognize this guy's name. Like, I don't have a chance, right? I bite him. But for me, that high ground is where you want to get to. It's where you have positional advantage, where you have perspective, right? So our offices are called the high ground. Our office is like co-working facilities for veteran and athlete-led companies. It's like a warrior we work. What I try to do is look, hey, man, the only thing that's different on these maps is really the hard skills, between the ball field and the battlefield and the boardroom. The soft skills and experiences are very similar. and i always tell these young veterans to go hey man you know what the difference between a 15 000 foot peak in north america and south america is and they're going to be yes right because that's kind of where we are like there's an answer where you get them like nothing man it's 15 thousand 15 15 000. two-thirds of what it takes to get there is the same regardless what map you're gonna be on like so if you've been on the high ground on the battlefield you you have a percentage of what it takes to be on the high ground of the boardroom yeah and what we try to do in our business is we try to co-mingle those men and women who are leading at really high levels in in the boardroom. with men and women who are leaving the ball from the battlefield and serendipity is part of the strategy but what happens is like for me it's it's the it's the empathy engine like you put someone in a shoot house and you know the ceo of a fortune 100 company is intimidating if you're a 24 year old you know second ranger kid you know until you're in the shoot house and all of a sudden that ceo's like hey man what i do and that second race is like no i got you and all of a sudden this equilibrium sets in and you start is like oh that's just a dude doing the best he can where he is where he has and what a lot of these young veterans know is like senior executive leaders they have all the questions we do i can't tell you how many times i've been in a conversation with a guy who's more money he knows what to do with he's accomplished everything on the board even possibly can it's like man I wonder how I do on the battlefield. And so we all got questions. Sure. And the question is who you live in life with, or you ask yourself these questions. Yeah. Are you asking, are you running with people who can help you answer the questions or are they just versions? Right. You're right. So when I see the high ground, it's, it's, it's a, it's a metaphorical application of what we know to be true about being on the battlefield. Does that make sense? A hundred percent.
Speaker #1
It's also, I mean, taking even another level, it's like being the high ground of your mind. and not being so attached to your feet.
Speaker #0
I mean, that's all. I mean, that's really, it all begins there. Exactly. It all begins there. Right,
Speaker #1
exactly. On the inside.
Speaker #0
Objective. Yeah, I mean, the neck up is really the women's system. I've always told my, this isn't scientific, which will shock you and everybody who knows me watching this. But I've always told my daughters, I'm like, hey, the human machine has four performance systems. You have the body, the brain, the mind, and the soul. And for an analogy's sake, I say the body is a car. The brain is a steering wheel, the mind is a driver, and the soul is an inherent sense of where you want to be, right? But the body of the journey is just machines, and they have machine-like principles. And when you begin to understand that, you're not as harsh on yourself. Like, I'm not mad at myself when my tire got a flat or when my brakes fail. I mean, it's a byproduct of being a consumable, right? And so the body is a consumable. And that's why I love, John, what you've been doing for years, is I've watched you kind of launch this concept. is And what Chris is doing with operator syndrome and all this other stuff, I go, you can drive with four mismatched tires and steering is off. You can do it.
Speaker #1
You can get to your destination.
Speaker #0
It's going to be exhaust.
Speaker #1
Most efficiently.
Speaker #0
It'll be 180% burden because you're trying to do this all the time.
Speaker #1
Right, right.
Speaker #0
And what mindfulness allows you to do is step back and figure out what's going on with the wheels and the car and the steering. Yeah. And, you know, the mind can impose its will on the body and the brain for a little while, but it's unsustainable. So the trick is work all three. Exactly. Right. And so defining that and understanding, you know, what the high ground is and sensitizing that to really what your world is. Like if I had all the money in the world and didn't have a relationship with my daughters, it would be worthless, right? Right. And, you know, I say this.
Speaker #1
Well, you're not even in the high ground.
Speaker #0
No.
Speaker #1
You're not seeing the big picture.
Speaker #0
100%. And I say this to a lot of people. I say currency isn't money. Currency is the value proposition upon which you make decisions. So, John, I've been in places in the world where the dollar has no significance. But a carton of cigarettes is gold. And gold only matters in places where beauty is appreciated. So, what's the currency? And we all have this currency. And you need to do some deep dive and understand what your currency is. And I think that's the way I see it is the most lonely and lost I've ever felt. Ever felt, bar none, is really the first three to five years when I left the ball field and battlefield and I came to the boardroom.
Speaker #1
Well, that's identity. Well,
Speaker #0
I mean, there's simplicity, right? Right. It's simple, but it's not easy, right? But there's no mystery where the high ground is on the ball field and the battlefield. on the battlefield like you you know where it is like yeah like hey i want to play in the super wall like it's it's and not only that is their total clarity on what the x on the map is but there's an infrastructure infrastructure in an ecosystem that's designed to get you as high and as far as you're willing and able to go on the ball from the battlefield in the boardroom but you have to assemble that you have to build that right and the x on the map man profit is not purpose It is, and you can spend it however much you want to. Profit in and of itself. That's like bullets. Bullets have no purpose. They're of no value unless they're used, right? But I tell them, I say, don't be apologetic about being successful because your profit funds and facilitates and resources your purpose, right? Yeah. And I've worked with executives that they're like, hey, man, I can't make another million dollars. I'm like, sucks to be you. I got my first one, right? Yeah. But the point of it is, is like a million dollars is always going to fail you if it's just sitting in the bank like Scrooge McDuck. You know, like if we've got an army full of every weapon in every round, but we don't go outside the wire, we fail. So you don't need to be apologetic about being profitable because for me, money is bullets. More bullets, better targets, bigger targets. That's all it is.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And more you can fire.
Speaker #0
But it took me a long time to, and you can miss, you've got margin when you've got a lot of rounds, right? But for me, you know, I would tell you, I don't know that I'd ever not known what I wanted to be when I grew up. until I was in my early
Speaker #1
30s. Yeah.
Speaker #0
And the problem with that recalibration that's kind of thrust upon us when we leave the ball for it on the battlefield is everybody goes to those moments of reinvention. You've got to reinvent yourself. You're not the biggest, fastest, smartest, strongest. You're not all these other things, right? Like you stopped growing in high school. You're not going to play in the NBA. And when you have to go through that really hard moment of forced recalibration, you've got infrastructure. You've got margin to do it. And sometimes when you're leaving the NFL or you're leaving the SEAL teams, you just have less margin. So it's not that it's any less hard when you have to do it when you're 18, emotionally, but materially it's hard. because you don't have the margin. Right, yeah. I remember when I was at the Ravens, there was a dude who was the, he's always been the fastest guy wherever he's been, right? And that camp was the first time he wasn't the fastest guy and it broke him. And some of the coaches were.
Speaker #1
Well, I mean, his identity is like stuck to it.
Speaker #0
Well, that's why I told someone, some of the coaches were kind of messed with him when I was like, hey man, that's not a character issue, that's an exposure issue. Like when was the first time you realize you weren't the fastest. Right. First time I realized I wasn't as fast as fifth grade Little Rock, Arkansas. Come around second base.
Speaker #1
Some girl running.
Speaker #0
I don't know if you're not old enough to remember this, but they made, you know, you had this brief season in life when we had parachute pants. And then they made fake parachute pants. Oh, that's pretty quick. Yeah, what I learned about the fake parachute pants is those are not flame retardant. My chubby little legs are catching on fire as I'm rounding second. But then I find, you know, when I find I'm not the fastest, I go home to a mom and a dad. So I margin. And I said, this kid has always been the fastest and his speed is what's going to allow him to extract his family from poverty. And now he's just finally went the fastest. So you got to give him time. I mean, that's amygdala, that's limbic system. The brain lacks the stimulus to grow based on success. It only grows because of comfort. I mean, discomfort, adversity. And so that evolution, it has to. And I think what's hard for us is. We're having to do that later. And we're having to do it having been on a high ground that offers a unique clarity of purpose. And I'm also a horizon guy. And John, I'd be interested in kind of how I articulate this and see your opinions on it because I don't know if I do it well. I would say until my early 30s, I was flying nap at the Earth. So nap at the Earth is your contour flying. It's like every cool scene in a movie where the birds just going right along the treetops, right? That's called Napa. This is what that's called. And that provides a really fast feedback loop. I do return on effort, return on effort, return on effort, right? And also in the boardroom, I'd never been in an environment that I had to wait more than a month to figure out if what I did worked. Like on the ball field, every seven seconds.
Speaker #1
Yeah,
Speaker #0
exactly. Instant feedback. And I can self-assess my value proposition with my teammates and also so I know who I am and where where I am and what I'm doing. And then, Then I go to the sidelines and my position coach gives me feedback. Then I go to halftime and the coordinator gives me feedback. And at the end of the game, the outcome, the coaches and the fans give me feedback, right? In our world, you get feedback really quickly. Ten go out, ten come back. I mean, there's not a far horizon on effort, right? But all of a sudden, I went to the boardroom and there's a scene I kind of point to, you know, in Finding Nemo. this is my level of maturity is it i love it i want to squeeze this amazing movie that's over like hey those inside out moves are stunningly accurate they're so good there's a scene in finding nemo where he flies he swims off the core reef and it's the first time nemo didn't know where he was because he's always had the reef the you know or marvin the dad and until i was in my early 30s i was never in a scenario where i didn't have fast feedback and i and and and i'm surrounded by people who know as much or more about the map that i'm on that i do and all of a sudden it's like you fly into a fog bank and i had no instrument panel to to yeah to understand where i was you're looking for a new map you know what i mean it's like i mean and so you got to build it right and what i think's so great about this podcast and these other efforts is we we've had enough friends that have gotten out and survived their own mistakes that now you're going to get in the gouge a little bit oh sure and you still got to go through it like i can tell you everything that's going to happen in hell week and with no surprises it's still going to suck yeah and you spill not and you still might have and you can make an argument that's worse because you know what's coming yeah yeah and so You know, there's no real hack, but familiarity is always helpful, right? Right. So, you know, when guys get out, I always tell them, I was like, hey, man, the best way to look at your first three to five years after you get out is like an IA. It's like a TDY. You know, you're chopping to another command. You're trying to figure out, but hold it loosely because they rightly hold you loosely, right? But yeah, man, that first three to five years was hard and I probably made it harder. by not wanting to ask for help or not. My dad died when I was young, and my job is to protect and provide ever since then. You're not used to asking for help, and those mentors aren't so overtly. When you check in a platoon, you've got a senior enlisted, and there's just no reason to pretend like you know what they are. They're just so obviously. so much more capable you and more experienced and in our world like you're staying for not asking questions people say hey do do the special operations community have a permissive environment when it comes to curiosity like we have an expectant yeah like if if i brief you on something and you're not asking questions and you're a new guy i'm coming for you after the brief i'm like oh you don't have any questions you've never done this for but you're the best in the world like you have no questions right beginner's mindset because if we're not asking questions you're telling me one to two things you don't care or you're already great at it right those are the only two realities if you're not asking me questions you don't care or you're already perfect you know i'll throw in those i'll throw in the you're insecure yeah that's the reason yeah right you know when i have this keynote i give called pursuing elite and what i say is like hey man these are my observations on the ball field and battlefield in the boardroom yeah about people that just consistently produce elite outcomes right and yeah we're going to ask you about that yeah yeah i know you have your four pillars which i which are really Yeah, the four maps and then purposeful, passionate, protective, and modern. And yeah, and so for me, it's curiosity is what you said. I esteem curiosity greatly.
Speaker #1
Curiosity keeps you in the high ground too. You know what I mean? Because you're like, you're looking, you're nervous.
Speaker #0
Curiosity is a declaration. When I talk about pursuing elite, what I say is the difference between being excellent and elite is are you done or you're not done yet. Excellence is real. Excellence is quantifiable. I mean like. Right. People ask me all the time, what's the difference between being excellent and being elite? Is it talent? I'm like, no. There's nothing more abundant than unrealized potential and unfulfilled talent. And I'm not marginalizing talent. Talent's real. There's no reason to not talk about it. And talent will get you there, but it won't keep you there. Bud's is built to be a talent breaker, right? And a lot of times the guys that don't make it through are the guys that are so supremely talented that they've never been tested before. Like my advantage is, oh yeah, like my gift is not being gifted. because I've never walked in thinking it wasn't going to be hard. I remember when our,
Speaker #2
our buds plaque says too dumb to quit. Oh,
Speaker #0
a hundred percent. Yeah. That was like the church is like, sir, if you're going to be, you're going to be done, be tough. I'm like, I'm your man. 2.08, five at the nail with Kevin, man, I'm your guy. Right. And, uh, but, but it's always been hard. So when it's hard, I'm not shocked. Right. And, and again, it's not a character issue. Like when you talk to guys who quit during hell week, it's really kind of fascinating. and the guys that are extraordinarily talented. physically gifted when they quit and they talk about it they almost talk about it like it's an out-of-body experience like they're in the third person watching themselves quit and they're not able to stop it well that's the same thing i felt around in second base as a chubby fifth grader right it's like you go into this fight or flight it's like the inverse of flow you're in this third party state powerless to stop because the because the monkey brain's taking over like you're not driving anymore monkey brain thinks you're gonna die it's running the ship now right Hmm. And so, you know, that's why we let a lot of listed guys come back through. You know, if you're talented and it's the first hardest thing, we're going to find a way to keep you back in the community. You know, I jokingly call, I call my, it's a little bit of an origin story in some ways. I call myself the achieving average.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, that's part of the flow. You say it's like average. It's like good, bad,
Speaker #0
average. Yeah. So the outcome is your bad, average, good, excellent lead.
Speaker #1
Right. Exactly.
Speaker #0
And so the difference between being excellent is either you're done or not done yet. because excellence is real. It's quantifiable. And for me, the lead is what happens once you get to the X. And there's people who get to the X and they hug and they high-five and they celebrate and they're done.
Speaker #2
So the X is, in our vernacular, the X is the target. Right, yeah. The goal.
Speaker #0
That means you're done. Yeah, you're done. Hitting a threshold when you started your first company. In theory, you're done. And what I say is the people who are leaders, people get there. And if anything, you've got to. Encourage them to rest, recover, and revel, right? Because you can be elite if you stay restless when your competition is. When you reload, when others relax, that's when you become elite, right? Talent doesn't have much to do with it. Like I said, I call myself the achieving. I'm a little bit of an achieving average. It's a little bit of a play on words. When I say I'm an achieving average, it doesn't, you know, I'm not a, you know, I manage to do some pretty neat things, but I'm not a very gifted person. I say when I say I'm an achieving average what I mean is if you were to aggregate all my gifts and abilities you'd find me to be a high C or a low B in just about everything except for looks. I'm a good looking guy. It's an A plus. It is what it is man.
Speaker #1
I was intimidated.
Speaker #0
I know it happens all the time. It happens all the time.
Speaker #1
He's really gonna.
Speaker #0
I walked out of the house this morning I caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and I turned to look at my bride of almost 30 years and I said babe I can turn it down but I can't turn it off.
Speaker #2
And she had a lucky woman.
Speaker #0
She laughed. She was pretty hurt. And so, like, in the origin story of the achieving average is, like, I was so invisible as a football player. Like, this is how bad I was as a football player. I love football way sooner than football loved me. And so, I remember I was in eighth grade, Brandenburg Middle School, and I was the fifth-string fullback, which wouldn't have been a big deal, but there were three of the fullbacks. And even that wouldn't have been a big deal. And I remember my dad said, son, I'm not disappointed you're the fifth-string fullback. I'm disappointed they wrote it in the program. I'm like, what? It was in the program. One, two, three, blank, five. I was like, God. What happened? Number four.
Speaker #1
There was no number four.
Speaker #0
Yeah. This is not even a good movie. Jonathan McCurdy from Guard to the four-string fullback, right? And I was like, man. And so the only way I could be visible to coaches, I'd pick up all the pads after practice, right? And I'd try to take them in. And I remember one practice I was. I was picking up the pads and I was gotten to the back door and I was knocking on the door. No one answered the door. I was like, oh, they're just messing with me. Then I turned to look and coaches were leaving. Like they're in their cars leaving for the day. I was like, oh. So I remember I dove in front of my coach's cars and he hit me. I was in pads, so it was fine. And he gets out. He goes, hey, why are you just like one of my football players? I'm like, I am one of your football players. I'm trying to take the pads in. So he came and he let me in. And I'm bringing in the pads. He's like, you know what, son, when you're in eighth grade, you can be on this football team. I'm like, I'm in eighth grade. I've been on this football team for two years, right? So I had to decide. I was like, okay, well, you know, why am I playing football, right? But this is where my friends were. It's where I was learning about myself. I wanted to be a part of something bigger than myself. So I remember I went out, and I still have a piece of paper I wrote down, and I called the achievement equation. And it. For me, everything comes down to math, simple math, right? And so for me, the achievement equation is angles plus allies plus advantages equals achievement. And I remember when I wrote that down, it was kind of cool because for me, angles and allies is two-thirds of the equation. Yeah. And advantages, you know, for me, advantages are talent and treasure. People go, time? Like, no. Talent and treasure just buy you more time. But time in and of itself, we all have the same amount of. But the math for me is like, hey, man, if I get great angles. and I surround myself with people who mean what they say as much as I mean what I say, then I should be able to beat someone that just has more advantages. And that equation has driven my entire life. It is the story of Navy football when we were there and we're at our peak. Like, hey, we play Notre Dame. There's going to be a gap in advantages, you know, when it comes to talent and treasure. But that's only a third of the equation. Like, if I've got angles and allies, I've got your ass of all your advantages. Now, what's really scary in all the great ways, as you have and this is kind of the arc of ray lewis right ray had extraordinarily advantages right lots of talent yeah and then when the angles and the allies came alongside that talent you're just like this could be a tough day man yeah tony gonzalez i remember we played tony gonzalez in the loha bowl when he was a cow and he he screwed me up pretty big because i was kind of like a water boy like manufactured hatred and you know anger was my fuel i remember first play he And I hit him. push him in the helmet shut him in the head like i'm gonna be here all day this dude jumps up and he pats me on the helmet and he goes 51 you're a great linebacker i really enjoyed preparing to play you and thank you for serving our nation and he just trot off the line i was like it's like it's for the whole rest of the game protecting i'm like he's down like don't hit him and i called him sir and i was like okay sure like he just screwed me up but that's an example where like him and larry fitzgerald and and you know brady what you have is you have these advantages but when you put angles understanding your craft and you put allies great teammates and so buds for us is where you develop the allies like there's only way to forge that level of camaraderie is time and suffering that's it yeah so if you don't have time what do you have suffering right and so we suffered and then you figure out who means what they say right and so Boom. You know, I don't remember what question you asked. My meds ain't kicked in yet. They will. I mean, it should be great on my meds kick in.
Speaker #2
We're talking about the difference between elite and. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And I would love to go in those four pillars, like balance, curiosity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Tribal. I call them the, I call them the pursuit points. Cause my whole thing is, Hey, pursue elite. And these are the mechanisms we should do it. So for me, there's, there's five pursuit points. There's balance, curiosity, tribalism, intentionalism, and authenticity. There you go. And for me, balance is not. an equal distribution of effort and time because it's not realistic, right? Right. What I tell people is balance is building high ground for hard days. Right. Because here's what you know, you're going to have a hard day and you better have friends and family and faith that can remind you who you are and what you're about when the world tries to make you forget. Because that's what the world's going to do. The world craves equilibrium. It doesn't like extraordinary. And so it's going to try to regulate that. It's going to try to bring and you got to have these here's the most elite people I've always known. hey i know i'm going to need you and i don't know when so i need to invest in nurture if i could if i expect you to be there for me when i need you and i know i don't know i'm going to need you then i have to nurture that relationship like i never want to be the guy that when someone calls to go he must want something oh yeah i'll never i'll never i'll never see i'll never be that guy i'll never mean to be that guy mechanically it may have happened but it's never mine right and um you know like we're joking we're talking about scripture like hey man when i'm When I'm on it, I don't have time to find the scripture. I need to know it in the top of my head, right? If you ask Kim and I a malfunction drill at the same time, we both will give you a tap, right, bang. It's so ingrained in us, we don't have to think about it, right? And so balance is having an answer for what to do when it all goes wrong, even if you do everything right. For me, I'll slow down real quick. So for me, this isn't a math equation. It's not balance plus curiosity plus trialism. plus intentional plus authenticity for me they're five lanes on the interstate to where you said you want to go and at any time one may be more dominant than the other sure but you had to have situation awareness on the other four but i as soon as i say that what i will tell you is if you get for me curiosity is the on-ramp It is, it is because if you get curiosity, right, it kind of facilitates the others. Right. So, and for me, one of the things I love about curiosity is it's a, it's a declaration of I'm not done yet by asking questions. You're telling me you're in, like, you're not, you're not complacent. Right. So I, for me, curiosity is five things. It's, it's, it's criteria. It determines our compatibility. Um, if I've got five years and you've got two. um conflict is imminent unless i know you got two if i know you got two and i got five i want to make these two the best years of your life right like but if we're unequally yoked from our horizons perspective there's going to be conflict there and i love you too much and i like you one day so let me figure out what your horizon is and we don't have to have the same horizons right like i love people ending well man i'm not trying to vilify being done i'm just saying if you're done tell me because i want you to be done in a way that's spectacular and better than you ever could have imagined right so for me we got to figure out what those horizons are and and so for me curiosity if you're not curious and i am let's call it now right um the second thing is curiosity is courage and he's co-equal and precursor to physical courage and i and i'm not diminishing physical courage when i when i say that i know physical courage i mean i'm around men and women of valor all the time. John's an example of this. We went to an institution that teaches this. I'm not diminishing physical courage. What I'm saying is you're brave because you had to be. There's an element of inevitability to it. You got to, you're not going to make it. That's what raises curiosity to the train of courage is because it's scalable. All you do is not do this and no one else. You don't know. For me, why don't we do this? I'll only speak for myself, right? 51-year-old man, somewhat accomplished, been really fortunate. And to this day, when I'm in a room full of people that I respect and admire, to this day, I would not let them know my stomach will not be questioned because I'd rather them think I know. I'd rather you think I know. I'm afraid of the answer. I'm afraid of the word that comes with the answer. I'm afraid of admitting myself. I don't know. I'm afraid of what you'll think about me when you find out. I don't know. That's always been the definition of courage is action on the face of fear. Yeah, exactly. So when we see someone doing this, we know someone has courage. And I find courage to be a prerequisite for any good thing, right? I agree. So curiosity is criteria. It's courage. It's a creator. I don't want to answer for you. Every person has their own answers. But I will tell you, everything in my life that I love is on the other side of the question that scared me. Yeah.
Speaker #2
100%.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Everything. Hey, I wonder if I can. I wonder if she will. like everything, right? Curiosity. creates careers and relationships and experiences that we wouldn't trade anything for. So curiosity is criteria. It's courage. It's creative. It's a catalyst. And this is something that we love about our community. Our community is like there is no static in our community. Like you're either getting better or declining, right? And like I use swimming as an example for this a lot. Like I love water sports. And the reason I love water sports is because the water always works. I mean, there's humility that comes with water. Like everybody's fighting for second because the water is going to win. Like water is undefeated. I think that's what makes us kind of unique in the landscape of special operations is the water humbles us and we know it. So we're not peers with the water. And I tell people all the time, like Michael Phelps was the fastest person on the planet at not dying in the water. He doesn't die in the water fast, right? Because he knows the water's rules. You don't follow the water's rules, you're going to die. And Phelps' career is fascinating. If you look at some interviews for his last Olympics, he says something that's pretty remarkable. He says, this is the first Olympics I trained for. You're like, what? Now, of course, he trained. He's not scared to train. But what he's saying is this is the first Olympics he couldn't just show up and be better than everybody else. And so he started training with this kind of righteous fear, this urgency that righteous fear gives us. And because he did, he produced an Olympics that we still talk about it, right? Yeah. And I tell people all the time, like, I have very few regrets. I don't think I'd do anything different, but I would do everything differently. I'd do nothing different, but I'd do almost everything differently. And if I could go back and tell the 24-year-old Clint anything, I'd say, hey, ask more questions than you want to. Listen longer than you think you have to. Yeah,
Speaker #1
right.
Speaker #0
That's what I would tell him to do. For sure. And I think I'd be here today, but, you know. thinner more hair less scars right but i'd still i'd still be here right and so for me kuros is a catalyst and yeah and the last thing is you know kuros is criteria it's a it's courage it's creator it's a catalyst and it's a complacency killer and complacency is a killer i guess oh yeah well that's the average it's in the supply chain of every disaster every it's in the cocktail of any it's it's just always there and people tell me like man there's no for me there's no discipline about not being complacent other than just staying curious. Like curiosity and complacency, they're incompatible. So if you're curious- You're not asking questions. By default, you reject complacency. So there's no like how to become less complacent. It's more like how I stay curious because if I stay curious by default, I'm rejecting complacency. Right. And when we choose curiosity, a few things happen. One, we get better. Like we had, this is what our senior listed a remarkable man. And he's got his own stories. I got mine too. Like when you're a new guy, like you're throwing everything on you. Like you look like a mule. Like you got, you know, and the funny thing is guys like, is that where you're wearing your knife? You're like, God damn it. You got to go read. You walk out there wearing their knife where they told you they're making fun of you. He's like, and so you do these gear explosions. What you find is that the guys get better and older, they get leaner and faster. And so when the guy that's been on 10 combat deployments is, is, is not caring as much as you, it's probably because he knows more than you. Right. Right. And so, and he's embraced all the bigger, faster, smarter, stronger, all these other things. So, so one, when you choose curiosity, you add new, better, faster, smarter to existing proven, skilled, experienced, and wise. But not only that, you tend to attract people that are courageous. They want to create something they're proud of and be as good as they can be, as fast as they can be. And that didn't even feel like work, man. That just feels like adventure, right? Right.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Very true.
Speaker #0
And so like. those are the allies you want that's who you want man it's it's it's a criteria piece right so so you know curiosity tribalism you know for me um when you see groups of people you can call them one of four things there's gaggles groups teams and tribes and what makes these things different is what yokes them together so gaggles you look at our problems groups are yoked together by preference we like same stuff teams are you together by purpose hey we have a common goal and we need diverse skills. to pursue that goal. So, we align for the pursuit of that goal. But sometimes that's all you do, it's a declaration of intent. Like there's 32 teams in the beginning of every NFL season, and if we're only two left, right? And for me, tribes are the highest form of coexistence. Like throughout all of human history, tribes have affiliated for really two reasons, success and survival, right? And so, I say tribes, teams are united by purpose, Tribes are not by conviction. T.E. Lawrence once said, an opinion could be argued with, but a conviction is best shot because you'll hurt for a conviction, right? And what you see between a team and a tribe is the shedding of the self. There you go. All right. There's a shedding of the self between the team and the tribe, right? And it manifests itself in speed. And the way I say it is like you can see it. I go, teams row, tribes flow. There's a reduction. There's a fluidity in it, right? What you're seeing is- It's also a loss of identity. You're seeing the shed of the self. Right.
Speaker #1
You become like hive mind.
Speaker #0
Listen, we talked about the Marine Corps earlier. The Marine Corps beats the U out of you. And now you're useful. And it's beautiful. You won't find any SEAL that doesn't respect the Marines. I love it. All like, if we're going somewhere like on freezer, I like, we just got to worry about them breaking stuff. And I was supposed to, but they're like,
Speaker #2
that's not with us.
Speaker #0
Not a peacekeeping force. Right. Those boys are there to get you. And I love it about them. Right. But so, you know, and that's kind of what buds is buds beats the, you out of you. So now you're useful. Right. And that's what I love about team sports and all these other things is, is, is, is, is putting healthy distance between. you and you right so you get in the perspective right and so um but but for me it's it's i've always that's why i've always chosen really hard things i've chosen really hard things i'm gonna need people around me that are better than me and i'm gonna have to listen to them or i'm not gonna make it right there's this i kind of paint myself into the corner of the person i say i want to be right um so balanced curiosity travels intentionalism i think you know he'd tell you this like you know When I left the NFL and came into training, there was like 250 guys that said they wanted to be SEALs. And at the end, there was 12 of us left, right? 12 original day one all the way through, right? That's wild. And it's nuts. And I want to tell you, like, there's a meaningful percentage of the guys that didn't make it, they got hurt.
Speaker #1
That sucks for them,
Speaker #0
too. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?
Speaker #1
Because they put all that time in.
Speaker #0
It's awful, man. You tear your shoulder. The body's got to vote, man. It really does. You know, Rock Porter just claimed a lot of... good team guys tell us about rock board yeah yeah rocks don't care yeah we're actually like oh you're a high school quarterback great face meet the corner over here right like it's just you know so there's some there's some harshness to it but i think all buds exist to figure out who has whose conviction is they want to be a team guy vice whose opinion is i want to be a team guy right and it's not that clear it's not all black there's there's dudes that could have made it through training and they just don't want to do what team guys do. you know, I love that. Like be you and what you are. Right. And, and, um, probably the most talented guy in our class, um, quit during cake week. And he was going to be honor man. And he just quit.
Speaker #1
Honor man is the top grad,
Speaker #0
the best grad. I mean, I've never seen buds.
Speaker #1
And he quit.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Because he's like, I know what we do as an, or as a community. And I don't know if I can do that. And I don't want to be a liability. I want to. So he became a helo pilot and he's like, I want to rescue people. And he's an extraordinary, he's a brilliant guy, but the know thyself piece, when he quit, every instructor lined up and shook his hand because of self-awareness it took to, he'd made it through training. There was no cake weeks the last week.
Speaker #1
It wasn't even a physical. No,
Speaker #0
no, he made it. He even made it. He was one of the most mature and profound know thyself moments I'd ever seen. And we're betting he's successful today. He's incredibly successful.
Speaker #1
There you go.
Speaker #0
And he's universally respected by every instructor and every guy went through buds with no one questions it because it was just this, it was the self-awareness that it took the rest of us probably years to kind of cultivate. Right.
Speaker #2
If at all.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Cultivating. Yeah. Be the better way to say it. Right. Right. For me, that intentionalism has kind of been the secret sauce for me. Like always knowing why I'm doing what I'm doing. Because the what's are going to be there. And the what's are the one more. It's like one more minute, one mile. And you know why you're doing what you're doing. The what's stays small.
Speaker #1
You talk about maps right from the beginning. You know where you're going. I know where I'm going. That's fucking private.
Speaker #0
Yeah. This will be a shocker for you. He already knows this. I'm not a runner. you know oh i know i know like you ran before yeah no no i know you know like that that is gazelle you can run for days sweating yeah hot outside i don't like running and we do a lot of running like you run six miles every day to chow and i'm good with that one like i'm fine i'll run that one well you're running the breakfast yeah you know yeah and then you know what you got this eight mile condition runs and i always i always joke when i talk about average i say average has no secrets but but you can't learn anything from average but i was at best an average run And you can learn something from that if you're a bigger guy. And I always tell guys, listen, if you're a big dude, here's the secret to big man running. Lean forward until you're about to fall over, then don't.
Speaker #1
Momentum.
Speaker #0
How far you got to go is like a controlled fall. Just lean forward.
Speaker #2
One of your academy classmates was my bud's OICs. Oh, yeah? Don Weatherby.
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. Don's a big old boy, man. Yeah. He's a different kind of big. Don's like a chiseled.
Speaker #2
yeah yeah exactly good look he was he was struggling with the run and and uh he ended up
Speaker #0
learning how to run well doing it man oh yeah he's killing it and uh such a good you'd still waters run deep with that guy yeah he doesn't talk so when he does you need oh yeah that's right um but yeah so and then so the way i always say it is and this may be the thing that was my pivot point on the boardroom map is i'd always known why i was doing what i was doing until my early 30s and also in the boardroom and i didn't really know why i was doing what i was doing make a lot of money? Why? And so for me, I had to slow down and I had to, that's the thing, is I reinvented my why. And once I figured out my why, because you reinvent your whys all the time. Like when I was an 18-year-old, my why wasn't what I'm about to tell you. It was prove people right, prove people wrong with every snap, right? People thought I could, I'm going to show them I could. People thought I could, I'm going to show them I could, right? So my why, when my bride had her first daughter while I was over, and it took me longer to figure this out, but when we had our Third daughter, I knew what my why was. My why was to be the kind of guy my girls want to marry one day. That's it. And who I am, what I do, who I do it for, you know, and that man's going to be purposeful, passionate, particular provider. If he's not those four things, I'm not going to have to scare him off because my girls aren't going to want him. And if he is those four things, I'm still going to scare him off. So I always say I believe everybody has to have a high why and a big why. And your high why is personal, and your big why is personal. professional. I'll use my time, my treasure, and my talent. And once you get those things, it's not that you're unstoppable, you just won't stop yourself. So my high why, I want to be the kind of guy my girls want to marry one day. My big why, I want to work for the best leaders in America and create amazing careers for veterans and their families as they come home. And so commander's intent is what we call it. Commander's intent is that cardinal north that you reconcile all future decisions against, right? And once I figured that out, I was like, oh. Got it. And then all of a sudden, the boardroom took its right place in my world. And what I tell guys is the boardroom is just a gear lock. It's a place you use to build, guard, and grow the breakfast table. And once it becomes functional to you, like he and I like SIGs because they issued a SIGs.
Speaker #2
That's the pistol.
Speaker #0
But you give him a Glock, he can run a Glock. He can run an HK. Like, it doesn't matter.
Speaker #2
I actually love the HK, man.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they're great. They're great. But you and I know a bunch of guys are on. pretty significant raid and if you went to those guys like hey man you can go to this raid but you can't carry a sig i don't know a single one i'm like well i'm not going all right like you give me a slingshot you have black power i'm going on that thing you're saying bolt's not fast because he's wearing nike he's fast he beat me in crocs right but all of a sudden we get out and we'll get these brands that go to work for us our identity and they're not and the analogy i use Hey, listen, industry is terrain. Companies are weapon systems and platforms. Leaders are teammates. You know, finance is jungle. Commercial real estate is desert. Like, it's just a terrain. So choose your terrain, choose your weapon system, choose your teammates, and go. Right. Because the end state is the breakfast table. And like I said, like for me, it took me longer than it should have to kind of recapture that clarity I had on the ball field and the battlefield, but once I did. on the boardroom i became the version of myself i like the most right and and and for me is um you know everything i do is a is that the kind of guy i want my girls to come home with one day yes or no is come quick because all life's about making decisions it's also i mean they're obviously so close to you i mean they you know you love them so much it's a great way to continually measure how you're moving through life yeah and i and i extend that orbit beyond that if i care about you Like, you know, like, like, like I want to always say, if my girls come on the man, like me, I better be okay with it because that's what I showed him. And so for me, like I knew what kind of teammate I wanted to be on the battlefield. I knew what kind of teammate that I want to be on the, on the ball field. And okay, now I know what teammate I want to be at the breakfast table and the, and I tell people like, so I say, Hey, my mission is to win the war on veteran suicide with power of daily wins and a good day's work. And that'll find daily wins is add value to the kind of person you want to be around and learn from. with you. already know how to do as you lead a battlefield and come to the boardroom and a good day's work is provide for yourself and those you love adding value to the kind of business leader you want to be around to learn from with what you already know how to do as you leave the battlefield and come to the boardrooms you can be at the breakfast table you said you'd be or you want to be when that season of life hits you yeah and once you're there you're like oh all right you know team guys like i want to go on a mortgage i'm like really like yeah mortgages i'm like what okay why i'm Maybe you should be named Freeman Sawyer. Freeman Sawyer called me one time and was like, Hey man, I just brought 400 acres in East Texas in cash and I want to make the most adaptive hunting facility in America. What do you do? I do a mortgage. I'm like, oh, mortgage sounds cooler to me now. Like, hold on. I'm not going to. Yeah. We weren't cool because we carried cigs. So for me, when you hold the boardroom, not loosely, but you recognize it is. Like, I play football. It didn't matter what helmet I had. Rydell, shoot you. Like, I don't care. Like, I love football, right? And that's the place we need to put the boardroom. And you want to be great with whatever you're wearing. Man, once you look at it as a resource to. build garden grow the breakfast table a lot of decisions become easier right well you bring it back to humanity instead of just money you know and i think that people are going to care about you when you're gone right right so like the high white and i believe right as high wise who you are and what they say about you when you're gone and your big wise why do you use your time your treasured talent the way your time your treasured talent and you have those answers life
Speaker #1
is not easy but it is simple right well i mean yeah you know again you have another x in the map
Speaker #0
you know you're fine you know this is what i love so much about john what you've been doing and will as well like that that fifth pursuit point is authenticity right yeah and i tell people like authenticity is what you call vulnerability when you're not scared anymore you're scared is vulnerability that's where we wanted to go yeah we'll get into it but let's talk about definitely both of those yeah like authenticity and
Speaker #1
vulnerability is something we continually what we express on the show as much as we can that's part of our success it's really two of the ingredients of our formula success is like you know being authentic not giving a fuck but giving a fuck you know what i mean the sense of like no we're going no we're driving knowing like how uh what we're trying who our audience is what we're trying to speak to them about you know and help them to wake up to but then being vulnerable enough to just like not have all the answers like ask good questions be really curious period man the most the most elite people in the most elite organizations and who are the most authentic ones yeah and and yeah and and there's a more reason why we could dive into that but there's also a categories.
Speaker #0
And I don't care why you're doing the right thing. I want you to do the right things. It's the right thing. But if you're doing the right thing because it's produces an early result, that's fine. Like I tell these guys like, Hey man, you're going to make good decisions when it comes to my daughters and you're going to make good decisions because you're a good dude. You're gonna make good decisions because you're scared not to. And I don't care which one it is. I'd love you to make good decisions because you're good dude. But if you're doing it because you're scared, that's fine with me too. Right. And for me, authenticity is a harvester of time. And here's what I mean. As a species, we've agreed on one thing, 24-7, 365. We haven't agreed on anything else since then. Even the places where the sun doesn't set for six months or rise for six months, they still go 24-7, 365. So if we look at mistakes as increments of time, we begin to understand the significance of mistakes. Because time's irrecoverable. You can only save it. You can't buy it. I mean, that's the fundamental decision with Bezos and Amazon. Basically, the whole thing is you can't buy time. You can only save it, right? And so what authenticity allows you to do is not double down on irrecoverable time. And so if we go back to sports for this, like every team I ever played, me and Army in the clock, me and Air Force in the clock, me and Georgia Tech in the clock. The clock didn't care about either one of us. We both had 60 minutes at the beginning of the games, right? And if I make a two-second mistake, but I don't tell anybody about it, I'm doing 10 other guys to make a two-second mistake. Now we lost 20, 22, 24 seconds, right? And so the most authentic organizations, they don't double down on the irrecoverable asset that they and the enemy both have the same amount of. So authenticity is the most supreme tactical advantage harvester there is because you're harvesting the one thing we have the same amount of. Us and Al-Qaeda, same amount of time. I say the same amount of time. We've all got 60 minutes in an hour. And those who steward their time best win because they have more of it, right? That's why we focus so much on marksmanship. Like we miss less. And because we miss less, we don't have to carry as much. And because we don't have to carry as much, we're not as tired when we start fighting. Like there's a supply chain to it, right? So for me, authenticity is the most tactically advantageous thing you can do. But that's not. For me, the moral advantage of authenticity is good. I mean, you don't recover time. Like if I made a mistake and John was heading towards it and I stop him, I don't recover that time. But I do redeem it though. Like what was maybe minus eight is now maybe minus six, minus five. It may never be net positive, but. I said this earlier, shame is the shovel that Satan will use to bury you. And authenticity slaps that shovel out of his hands. And redemption matters. Redemption is a big deal. And authenticity allows you to claw back time and pride and character from mistakes that we've made in the past.
Speaker #1
What does that look like in the boardroom, authenticity?
Speaker #0
You know what I mean? Or I, I, one, I, for me, ethics is. It's a biological fact that you have to live with yourself for the rest of your life. And ethics determines how that feels, right? There you go. And so authenticity, one, on the boardroom, authenticity provides tremendous competitive advantage. There you go. Like if I'm faster from A to B, because I watch everyone else is getting to A to B, it's going to mechanically, it's going to produce a faster, better, more enduring result. What I've found in business is, especially when you're dealing with really successful people, is they crave authenticity. you've been often like in in their talent in their delivery or like so like i don't know if there's a person in my company that says sorry more than i do and i'm very if i make a mistake with my clients they're never going to hear about it from anybody but me i'm saying like hey i screwed this up here's why i screwed this up here's how it's never going to happen again and in the boardroom people crave authenticity and trust right and and so the authenticity breeds the more someone knows like hey I know that dude's going to tell me stuff he doesn't want to tell me. And all I want to know is what's going on. Like, you know, some of the young guys we'd work with, like, if you're, if I can trust you, then you're just going to get more tasks. You're going to get more trust, right? It's, it's, you know, so for me, authenticity, I think authenticity is the advantage on all the maps, right? Because it harvests time. You steward time better. And time is the only thing that really ultimately matters. yeah how do i use the time that i have can't control i can't control how many days i have i have no authorship over that i can influence i cannot do dumb shit right but i'm told control how i steward the days that i have right and so for me authenticity is a stewardship what gives you ability to reflect too and then and then recalibrate and then like it well if you want to be a value to others you have to reflect you want to inventory your stakes are like hey dude like i'm proactive you know i surround myself with young guys all the time and i go hey And I go, hey, I did that, it doesn't work. Right? Like, I did that. So, for me, it's a form of recovery in a way. Yeah. Wonderful. You know, rescuing others from the hole I dug myself and given out of, right? Like, I love that, right? And I think that's, I think it's our function. I think our function is to, I tell guys all the time, like, hey, I want you where I am now 15 years faster. I have this kind of theory called championing, because you put an ING on the end of anything and it's the. yeah it's a verb right so so for me as i've been around championship organizations have been a part of them there's kind of four qualities of championship organizations always have ones that are winning over and over again when i tell people there's passion talent precision and endurance the higher up you go the less passion and talent matter it's not because they matter it's just everybody's got it like in the olympics everybody's got passion talent there's no difference So what's left is precision and endurance. I look at precision maybe differently than others. For me, precision isn't being right more. It's being wrong less. I think that's a more honest way to talk about. Like being right more, that's kind of an academic kind of lab mark. Like wrong less, it considers entropy and fatigue and chaos and all these other things. But for me, precision is being wrong less and endurance is being wrong less for longer than your competition. So I hate it when they go, he gets stronger as the game goes on. Like, no, he doesn't. No one gets stronger than . You're seeing one who declines slower. Usain Bolt gets fast slower than everybody else and gets slower than everybody else and that's why he wins, right? And so for me, precision, so how do you, well, you just make new mistakes. Especially when you surround yourself with genius, like in our community, we're surrounded by genius. Like, all these guys are geniuses. And when I go to the NFL, all those guys are geniuses. all of them are physical geniuses, more of them are... intellectual geniuses than they know. When you look at the academic load of learning a playbook and triage and hiring to make a decision under pressure, I mean, the wiring for geniuses there, especially with the complexity of some of these playbooks and stuff. So all these guys are geniuses. The worst thing you do to genius is stifle its creativity because genius innovates the game. Genius is what involves and innovates. And so if Barry Sanders is your running back, you have two plays. Barry run left, Barry run right. You just take notes. Yeah. And you see Barry do something like, oh, other people can do that. That's a new play. And then you see those like, oh, it's just Barry. Only Barry can do that. Right. But Barry evolves the game. Right. And so I think as leaders, we got to tell our people, hey, make new mistakes. So when you're telling people to make new mistakes. You're giving them permission to create and innovate and evolve. Yeah,
Speaker #1
take a risk.
Speaker #0
But you're also demanding that they're a pro. Because in order to make a mistake, you've got to know everything about your old ones.
Speaker #1
Right, you're leveraging trust.
Speaker #0
If you're going to make new mistakes, you have to inventory your old ones. You have to know them. That's why the most important thing for us is that AR. You get off that bird, man, and you're downloading stuff, but you're circling up, three downs, two ups. you're learning from the last one because you don't have time to learn out there. You can only learn here, right?
Speaker #2
The AARs,
Speaker #0
the After I Turned Up the Port, After I Turned Up the View, debrief, Facebook. It's a chance to build that living library that allows me to remember what you had to learn the hard way, right? And, you know, rising tides raise all boats. Like we get to create this collective reservoir of knowledge and all tap into it. Because I may not have the margin to make it like you did, right? But now I learned what you had to learn the hard way. I get to. One of the greatest gifts you can give me is the chance to remember what you had to learn the hard way if I listen. You can't control whether I listen or not. That's every man's decision, but I can control whether or not you know or not. You've got to decide whether or not you're going to listen. And so I think that's where it comes down to the moral obligation we have for authenticity.
Speaker #2
I find it funny, kind of ironic that we're sitting five minutes from the Cowboys training facility and you used Barry Sanders.
Speaker #0
Yeah. detroit lion yeah instead of emmett smith yeah yeah i think you might have well emmett would tell you barry sanders well no barry sanders he was a genius i mean yeah i can tell you emmett would be like barry right maybe like i mean yeah but same thing with emmett like you know you call 80 of a play and you just tell emmett to be brilliant with the rest of it right yeah right and there's some environments where that creative genius won't work and you look at john manziel like that that level of creative genius works in college in the nfl it doesn't work like because Because the... You look at certain offenses, there's a really great head coach, and he went from college to NFL. And I was like, hey, your offense isn't going to work in the NFL. He's like, why? I'm like, your offense is based on inducing mistakes and exploiting the time window in that mistake. But your receivers in college got .35 seconds to get open. In the NFL, that's .15. Because this guy can change directions so much faster. So your quarterback doesn't have. the the physics to throw a ball inside a 0.15 window right so the the the more the there's that's why creativity matters up to a point right and you know reduce you know make new mistakes and learn new ones and evolve constantly and and you can only do that when you ask questions right so does that make sense yeah i feel like i'm on tangent highway right yeah oh yeah yeah sorry i took you down that no no you're good like i love this it's your show
Speaker #2
Oh, yeah. So we're having fun with it.
Speaker #0
Only I can make mistakes right now. Yeah.
Speaker #2
So, you know, we're talking about those pillars of being elite.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Balance, curiosity, capitalism, intentionalism.
Speaker #2
Yeah. So we watched a pod with you recently. I guess it probably wasn't too recent, but the intentionalism, I don't think was a piece of it. It was originally four pillars.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, it's always been there. It's always been those five. So maybe I just didn't talk about it. All right.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Well, you mentioned there the authenticity. And then I think you said fear.
Speaker #0
makes it vulnerability is did i pick no what i say is authenticity is what you call vulnerability when you're not scared anymore oh okay okay so it's again this is i'm from arkansas so i could be using several words wrong right yeah okay right that's what for me for me authenticity is you know vulnerability feels vulnerable yeah yeah but when you crave authenticity and you know the advantage that comes with authenticity vulnerability doesn't It's not scary anymore. Well,
Speaker #1
you have to lean into it in order to. Yeah,
Speaker #0
so that's why I say authenticity is what you call vulnerability when you're not scared anymore. I like that. It's because you're just so, you understand the advantage of authenticity. Exactly. So the advantage trumps the apprehension. Right, right.
Speaker #2
Well, how do you get to that understanding? Because so many people. Reps, reps and such.
Speaker #0
It all comes down to reps, man. All it comes down to reps. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
You have to be encouraged too. That's part of it too.
Speaker #0
How do you get a pull-up? It's like do pull-ups. How do you get a run in? You run.
Speaker #2
One of our instructors one time, man, on a Friday, he's like, all right, I know some of you guys are struggling with pull-ups. Why don't you guys come in on Saturday? Because you don't come in on the weekends and buds. We come in on Saturday, we're like, oh, man, we're going to get all this.
Speaker #0
We're going to get the gouge,
Speaker #2
man. We're going to get the gouge on how to do better pull-ups. He's like, all right, mount the bar. Do more pull-ups. Exactly.
Speaker #1
Exposure.
Speaker #0
Newsflash. Do the thing. Oh, man, I was pissed. There's an awesome I'm a visual guy, and that's why I love books and movies and songs because these people know how to say things better than i do and i remember i was on deployment remember we're all reading gates of fire by stephen presley if you're an operator you read gates of fire right and you've given it away to a lot of people well i know i'm a player with him oh yeah earning pro yeah i mean the world yeah he's incredible He's incredible. Yeah. But, you know, I remember. We were deploying and we were in Diego Garcia because we were going for Pecum Sancom. And I read the scene in Gates of Fire where Queen Gorgo, Leonidas, and Lady Parale were there. And King Leonidas articulates to the lady, so he chose her husband and her son.
Speaker #2
To be part of the 300.
Speaker #0
And he pulled her aside to explain it to her. And I get choked up when I think about this. And I didn't know how to tell my bride. how brave she was. I didn't know how to say that. I mean, she has her child and I'm deploying and we know what I'm deploying into. And I just marvel at her. And in the scene, he goes, do you wonder why everyone fears the Spartans? And his queen and Lady Paralate don't say anything. Is it because we're the only professional soldiers? And he goes, it's not what it is. It's because of our valor in combat. And he goes, it's not what it is. He looks and he goes, um What makes Sparta different is our women. Because when we fall, all of Greece will look to our women. And if our women stand, Greece will stand. And if our women fall, Greece will fall. It's the courage of our women that makes Spartan men great. I read that to my wife because I didn't know. Obviously, I've got to be around people who get what I don't know how to say until I've figured it out or I don't want to say it anymore. And so, you know, there's a Miles Teller's a really, really gifted actor. And there's a movie he's in where he talks. It's a boxer who broke his neck and he came back. It's a really great movie that I can't remember the name of right now. But there's a scene where he's getting interviewed by a reporter. And she talks about kind of how shady boxing is. And he's like, what's the biggest lie you were ever told? And he goes, it's not that simple. And she goes, why isn't it that simple? And he goes, no, that's the lie. The lie is it's not that simple when it is. you just do the thing every the thing they're telling you not to do that's what you do you do the thing yeah you know how do you get more authentic you be authentic man like right you know in well i think you need to go through that the
Speaker #1
authenticity can come with a lot of embarrassment a lot of like you need like you have that's part of the rep that's part of we had jocko on he was talking about exposure yeah you got to see your greatest fear and not watch it not happen like you hear rejection and so you share the thing you think someone's going to reject you
Speaker #0
and they're still there. Not only did not reject me, like money's always been a little bit of a struggle for me because I didn't have it when I was growing up and I watched it ruin a lot of people. And I raised some capital when I first started my company and every guy that I had talked to, they all looked at me and go, hey, I don't understand your business, but I understand you, I'm investing in you. And every time I said that I had this impulse to share my personal finances. And I was like, don't do that. Like, they're going to reject you if they see that. So I did. And so it was about six months, almost a year. And I finally asked them all to go to breakfast. And I laid these folders down on the table. And they're like, what's that? I'm like, that's my personal financial statement. And they go, why are you showing this to us? I'm like, well, because everyone you said you're investing in me and not our company. And when you said that, I wanted to show you my finances. But then I was scared because I thought we needed the capital. And so, but what it's done is it's kept me from asking you for your wisdom and your experience and insights. And, and I, I, I crave that more than anything else. And I just don't like making decisions out of fear. So here I am, you know, and, and so they're all flipping through it and it was agonizing. Like, they're like, they're like one. I was like, oh, and we guys like, what's the BAM? Like the BAM is a big ass mistake. The lesson of the big was, is don't buy a big truck after a good month, but after a good year. So I just started. atoning for these mistakes that I thought were catastrophic and horrific and no one ever made before in their lives. And then one of them kind of looked at me and one of them sitting on the corner, I can see it happening right now. He goes, he goes, Clint, I've, I've invested in a lot of companies a lot. He goes, I own a lot of companies. I've never had a CEO voluntarily show me his personal finances. And the guy that goes, especially something that looks like this. Right,
Speaker #1
right.
Speaker #0
Like, I'm not trying to set any records or anything here, man, but I just don't want fear to be between you and me. And then one of the other guys goes, hey, did I ever tell you about the time I lost $3 million of my boss's money? And then around the table, all those men started showing me. And I just feel myself going like, oh. And they're like, hey, why would you think we were perfect in the first place, right? Right. And none of them, I mean, all of them would have. That wasn't a key to the conversation. Like every one of those men is very free with their mistakes in the past. It was me. It was me getting out of my own way. Right. And, you know, knowing I'm surrounded by men that are men too, man. And it was a pivot point for me to. And so the only, I promise you, I mean, people who are watching this, like there's something you want to tell someone you love because you think they're going to reject you. And I can't say they won't. But I will tell you, if they're who you think they are, they won't. And you get to watch them prove it to you. I mean, you know what love is, is being fully, fully known. Yeah,
Speaker #2
you won't even be entertained. You won't know if you're not authentic and vulnerable, right?
Speaker #0
And it's so much easier, man. I mean, like authenticity is like, you know, some of the SED stuff, you know, and all that other stuff. Like that full poly lifestyle, when you're doing some of the intelligent stuff, like it's exhausting. You got to keep track of all the lies. Yeah. And that's like cardio. And I don't like cardio. Like so. I'm not going to maintain it on the cover. I'm like, that's too hard. What am I doing?
Speaker #2
I just got the truth.
Speaker #0
If you're going to reject me, reject me. Now, I remember my bride, man, my bride, we, you know, talk about authenticity, of this T-shirt that says, I beat anorexia because look at me. And I'm not trivialized. Yeah, no. It's an ancient joke between my bride and I because my bride was at the University of Arkansas and I was playing in the Navy. And my sister was at the University of Arkansas. So I flew from Navy to Arkansas because I wanted to see my sister and meet her sorority sister. So I just want to make sure they're good people because I care. I care about my sister and I want to make sure all her friends are good people.
Speaker #2
This is before you met her? No,
Speaker #0
this is when I met her. This is when I met her. Okay. And man, I was done the minute I was like, hey, you want to get married? She's like, can we go on a date? I'm like, sure. Amazing. So we went on a date and it was like, we went to Olive Garden. and a webbing I can you breadsticks night like you know that one yeah oh yeah you fill up on president's right you're full you want to get some yogurt you do the whole date like 12 bucks it wasn't bread six nine she was she was grilled chicken caesar salad and she was just kind of picking at it and i come from a family where you eat what you order yep i was sitting there watching her and i was like i was having this internal dialogue And this guy's like saying, like, don't say anything, don't say anything, don't say anything. But I was born in Arkansas. This guy's like, yeah, man, throw it out there, buddy. See what happens, right? So I remember just turning and looking at her and just going, hey, I really like you. And I think you could really like me. And I think we'd have something amazing here. But if you don't strap on the feedback, we're going to have some issues. That was $9.89. I'm not taking a salad home with my, I went this whole rant. What'd you order? What I didn't know at the time is my bride was knee deep in the throes of an erection. Man, it had her. And it's, and it's hooks and claws are deep and she just kind of bought it. And everyone in her life loved her was just young. Like, no, just be you. You're beautiful. And I didn't cure her, but I'm part of the choir and I did not save her, but I'm part of the symphony. And here's why that's so important to me. I've got three daughters. Yeah. And if anything, the, the, the world's harder now than it was then the pressures, my daughters to look and be and do are extraordinary. In eating the sword, the numbers tell me an eating sword is going to come to my house, either on my girls or one of their friends. And I'm okay with it because I know what my bride's going to do. My bride's going to go, hey, babe, I'm going to go talk to the girls. And I'll go, do you want me to come? She'll go, no, I'll go. And she'll roll up her sleeves and she will share her scars. And she will say to them, such pain. Because that's what you do when you're brave. And. So I live with an authentic, courageous woman. And because I do, I've got authentic, courageous girls, right?
Speaker #2
Right. Well, they've all got authentic, courageous dad.
Speaker #0
Right, right. And you live it. You know, one of the gifts I've always tried to give my daughters is let them know their dad's not perfect, right? And because my dad died when I was young, and then I made him perfect, and then I chased him.
Speaker #2
Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
you didn't talk about setting yourself up for failure right so i deified this this dad that i loved and i missed and i was trying to make proud and and you know if my i'm not convinced anybody in heaven cares what's happening down here you know how great heaven is but if my my dad would leave me like who are you chasing yeah like who was that's not me and i'll tell you one of the greatest gifts i was ever given is some of my dad's friends pulled me aside And he goes, hey, man, we love and miss your dad. This was probably 15 years after my dad died. And they're like, listen, we love your dad. We miss him too. But who do you think your dad was? And I listed all these things. My dad was. Yeah, he was. But he was also this. And they introduced me to the humanity, the fallibility, and made my dad human.
Speaker #2
Right.
Speaker #0
And they were like, listen, we're a little bit nervous because, you know. violent guy like we're not we love your dad but we're gonna tell you your dad really was because we can see what you're doing now you're you're you're vilifying yourself as a as a dad and you're comparing yourself to your dad but you know but this whole thing is like i always i always tell my girls like if you're gonna compare anything for everything if you're gonna compare the house compare the love this marriage if you're gonna compare the car compare the hole in the heart that a car will never feel right so you know so i just kind of chase pace and pull kind of theory of my deals like who you're chasing and what's life going to look like when you catch them right and then keep pace with people that are going to they're going to hold you accountable they're going to leave you behind if you don't do the work and you got to pull someone behind you or you'll be doing the thing longer than you want to or longer than you're good at it and both of us both of them are a disservice to the thing right yeah and um that's what i love about our community man like in our community like do your job we're not gonna wait on you to get better like you got it and so there's this kind of self-policing there's this kind of collective desire to get great right and you know so to bring it all back to the high ground it you know for me it it took me longer than it should have i remember i was down in my office i'd love for y'all to come down sometime but we have a We have a shoot house in our office at Simmon Houston's facility. My bride calls my office the Arnold Loft Boys. I'm like, what are you doing? What do you mean? She goes, listen, I have a 14-year-old who's in our office waiting for their mom to come pick them up from football practice. They would look at your office. And I'm like, so we have a shoot house. We have climbing walls. We have a gym. We have a shower that can chip paint. I mean, we got to. And I was like, yeah, well, your office would be pretty small. She's right. Like, you know what I mean? And she's like, you're like the world's biggest. You're a 51-year-old nine-year-old. I'm like, You are.
Speaker #2
That's what we're doing inside ourselves.
Speaker #0
Super mature response. I know you, everyone. And, you know, the way you always get to the high ground, I was just having a really hard day. And the way I see it is there's a difference between being here and being home. Here's geography, home is knowing why you're here. That's why so many of us can feel more at home over there than here. And I remember being down at the office, and I was just coming to grips with just how how I was with the husband and daddy and friend and boss, teammate that I wanted to be. And I kind of came to it because like, I'm here, but I'm not home. And so I was looking at the, the door three to our shoot house. And, and I'm a visual guy. I'm like, okay, everyone I love, everyone that needs me is home and home was on the other side of the door. And I'm here. So how do I get through that door? And then C4. C4 is amazing, man. C4, you can cook with it. You can blow stuff up with the C4 is incredible. But for me, C4 became an acrostic. I think that's what you call it. And for me, C4 instantly became career, compete, contribute, and catalyst. And what I realized in that moment, and this all happened really quickly. I think it was the culmination of some deep dives and conversations or whatever. What I realized in my mid-30s was my career, while I was on the ball field and the battlefield, was competing, contributing, and catalyst. So all of a sudden,
Speaker #2
I was- Many of us are victims of that.
Speaker #0
I was burdening the boardroom. with providing the satisfaction that only all four of those things could do, right? So, I've got about 18 months, almost two years of a daily checklist that was C, C, C, C. Hey, career. And it's ones and zeros because I'm either too harsh or too generous. There's no letter grade. Hey, career, did I go to work? Just can't have a good day unless you go, right? One or zero. Hey, did I compete in something or did I train to compete in something? One, zero. Did I help someone that can't help me? Think there's a hole in our soul that can only be filled by service to others? That's contribution. that I get better. And I mean, and I've got, I don't know how many four check days I had, but I had a lot of twos and a lot of threes. And our feelings are real, but they respect facts. And what that C4 became, it became my instrument panel when I was in that fog bank. And I was like, where I could orient and understand. I was like, okay, I went to work. I trained, helped somebody and I got better. And all of a sudden I could feel my brain going okay you're not lost you might be wrong but you're not lost and that's my biggest thing is like don't be lost don't be lost and sometimes you're not even wrong you're just early but don't be lost yeah and so for me those maps have always that that c4 that come all that's kind of a thing that's you know come all the way home and everybody that's not unique to the veteran experience like all of us all of us wonder who we are sometimes oh yeah and my deal is like you know There's some, I think, like I said, feelings are real, but they respect facts. And what I realized I was doing is I was, you know, the amygdala, the monkey brain is just going to take over. Like if it thinks it's not going to be like you.
Speaker #1
Anytime, anytime.
Speaker #0
And all of a sudden I would see that. career could be true catalyst and monkey brain like all right cool yeah we're not lost because all monkey brain really cares about is whether you're lost or not because lost equals dead and if it knows you're not lost then it'll let you live a little bit and so finding just a four instrument panel that let me know i wasn't lost that's when i started coming home and trying to help other guys have their version of that as quickly as i can and that and that's what i say you know my you know and it would help me like i would pull up in front of the house and I'd look at my CCC like, okay, went to work, trained, help someone, didn't get better. I'm talking about the physiology of getting better, like learning a new skill, playing the banjo, right and left handed. There's stuff that happens in our brain when we're trying to learn a new thing. And so that's not the moral get better, it's like literally gain a new skill, right with your left hand, all those things. There's some physiology that comes with doing something like that. and i'd pull up and i remember very vividly at a really hard day at work and i pulled up in front of the house and this was when i was really trying to beat drinking um because i struggled with drinking for a long time which is kind of shocking to a lot of people because i never drank when i first beer ever had was i was 29. i just never because i didn't have the margin like i couldn't yeah like one i wanted to be a good role model but two i was like i can't i don't have the margin drink and still perform at a high level right so it's practical as much as it was you know wouldn't be a good role model right and but for me and then also had evidence like i could see a trend and i was like oh hey that's eight days in a row that i've gone to work worked out uh and so there's something about facts and facts can be relative as long as they matter to us right right right and so for me it all comes down to like just don't be lost man don't be lost be wrong and a lot of times if you're wrong you're not even wrong you're just early but don't be lost yeah that's what i feel about my faith i tell people like man if you want to go from lost being wrong you pick up that bible like is a it's a map written for you by a creator that wants you home again right that's all it is and it's just bringing you back home it's a love letter that'll lead you back home and it's written to you by an all-knowing creator that loves you and he just wants you to come back home right and i said i told men like this is this is my faith like man i'll tell you what to do i'm just telling you what helped me is like you pick up that bible and you read it like as a letter leading you back home and you can go from lost to being wrong like that and in the fastest way to go from lost to being wrong in addition to that is you surround yourself with guys you know what it's like to be you they can continues like hey man you're not lost you just believe like so john says Now if you're lost, John's like, you're not lost. Then I'm in a decision where I go, okay, he's a liar or he's right. Which one's more probable? Well, I know he's not a liar, so he must be right. So I'm not lost. Now maybe I'm wrong. That's a second conversation. But that's why we're supposed to run with each other. I mean, I feel lost. Hey, you're not. You're on the phone with me. The fact that you're on the phone with anybody means you're not lost. Or I'm lost too, and I'm not lost. Yeah. I mean, if it's land nav, I might be. or my bad It's like, officers are famous for being lost. Like, John and I had just been lost together. Had to find some E4 come and save us. Like, they found a golf course again. Steve Osborne. I don't know what happened, right?
Speaker #2
Steve Osborne was my friend, man. That guy saved me more times. Dude,
Speaker #0
Wyme. Wyme would be like, hey, sir. Wyme and Fro. I had two amazing point guys. Those dudes could make, Wyme can make sir sound like the dirtiest word on the planet. Hey, sir. Like, you just called me an asshole? Like, no, I said, sir. I'm like, you an asshole. Oh my god. I know what that's like. Fro is legendary. I don't know if you know Eric Frohart. Yeah,
Speaker #2
yeah, yeah.
Speaker #0
Sure do. Fro and I did two platoons together. Any guy that names his kids after the Dixie Hazard characters is just going to be a special dude. Fro is amazing, man. I mean, we live in alliance, man.
Speaker #1
Learn from them.
Speaker #0
I've not always I would say I've not always been right, but I've almost always been around the right people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what it takes. because I've been around the right people, I've really been lost. I've been wrong a lot. Yeah, that's how you find your way. That's it, man. And it's also on my LinkedIn. My LinkedIn says, Fortunate. Like, why do you say fortunate on your LinkedIn? I'm like, because I'm fortunate. Like, yeah, it's like.
Speaker #1
You say it on your website. I do pull-ups. I mean. I don't think people appreciate that at all. Yeah. Like, the being fortunate, like, especially. Buddy.
Speaker #0
Yeah, like, people ask me about it. I'm like, I'm kind of like Forrest Gump. You just kind of lean forward, try hard.
Speaker #1
Lieutenant Dan.
Speaker #0
He's running. Like, Gen A. I kept running. I kept running. And, uh. So.
Speaker #1
Old school. We got, like, five, ten hours.
Speaker #2
We got. Well, I mean, like. so much of what we have here in our notes you've covered uh in a random and non-sequential way man but it's very natural this is an encrypted thing this is encrypted yeah chinese communist party listens to this we're gonna chop the big just the high ground man we're looking for the high ground yeah well tell us you know about carry the load and i how that carry the load so carry the load is part of that c4 yeah career compete contribute have a catalyst and
Speaker #0
for me it was a form of contribution you take care of the boys boys take care of you And for me, Carry the Load, it kind of started for me after Red Wings. It was the Memorial Day of Fall on Red Wings. I was mad. I was livid for two reasons. One, I was mad because the nation wasn't doing Memorial Day the way I needed them to do Memorial Day, given all that we had lost. And then I was more mad at me. Because I had done the world a well time. I started losing my friends too.
Speaker #2
Right.
Speaker #0
So I was mad at me more than I was mad at everyone else.
Speaker #2
Yeah. So again, real quick for our audience. Yeah. June 28th, 2005. That's Operation Red Wings. We lost three SEALs on the ground. Another eight SEALs in the helicopter along with eight Army nightstoppers. Total loss of life. 19 men. Like that. Like instantly. So.
Speaker #0
Yeah. It was awful. And. You know, and I always tell people, like, when you breathe that rare air, it's all you want to breathe again. It's what you want to share with everybody, right? Like, you've had that tribal existence, right? And so, I remember we had a barbecue. And so, if I use the word civilian, it's not derogatory, but it's not necessarily complimentary. It's kind of like a neutral thing.
Speaker #1
It's not complimentary. I'm like,
Speaker #0
sir. But if I say someone, if I say citizen, a citizen is a positive. Like, if you're a civilian, you're just managing downside risk and generally being compliant. If you're a civilian. A citizen, you're doing more than that. You're pouring into a community, you're doing more than you have to for folks you don't know, right? So I was at some friend's house and there's great American citizens they hadn't served. And it's a really affluent part of town. And I was just, you know, and my bride came up to me and she said, hey, you're scaring everybody. I'm like, I'm not scaring everybody. And she showed me a picture and I've got tattoos and beard and I'm just leaning against the wall. I'm like, maybe, maybe. And she pulled me to the side of the house. She put her hands on my shoulders. She goes, listen, I love you. and I miss them too. And I know you miss this." And she's just here to the weekend. And she goes, but I've never seen you not do something about things that bother you. So do something or get over it. Wow. Wow. We've been together since my second class.
Speaker #1
I can see why you're married at the moment.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And she's smoking hot too.
Speaker #1
There you go.
Speaker #2
I got to tell you something about smoking hot and we coming back. So I met my wife at SEAL Team 10. Oh yeah. She was the PA.
Speaker #0
That's dangerous.
Speaker #2
Yeah. Oh yeah. We had Afghanistan. when i first got there i was writing down little attributes of everybody like okay bald tall yeah like and becca walks in i'm like smoking smoking hot smoking hot rigging bobby yeah so she grabs you by the shoulders yeah yeah and so i went home and i put a pound in my pack for every person that i'd lost and i just kind of started going i
Speaker #0
mean in in coleman says it really well good pain pushes out bad pain right and um that's interesting and so i was i mean it was and so i just was going And I go, I just. And so I remember, I can remember this vividly. There's a place here in Dallas called White Rock Lake and there's this beautiful kind of 10 mile circuit and I was just going around it and it was hot and it hurt and I needed that. Because like Coleman says, good pain brings out bad pain. And Chris Kyle said that to me too before he lost me. And I came around the corner and there's this kind of World War II gentleman, I could just tell. He's like Ramrod Strayed, this military bearing that you have when you save the world and you know it. and i revere that generation right and they're imperfect just like the rest of us because their name's not jesus either but they're pretty remarkable generation and i was going to say something to him as i got close to him but as i got close to him actually said something to me first i pulled my headphones out and he said son i said yes sir he goes who are you carrying wow wow he knew it and it in i shared a name with him that was on my mind and he just and And he didn't even say anything. He just kind of knew. And so I would do that. you know every memorial day i just put on my pack and sometimes start at midnight and and i'll tell people like memorial day is midnight monday through sure sure and i don't want people to like our friends that we miss would have celebrated and had great parties on Memorial Day too, but they would have remembered why you're doing it. So it's not about mourning though, but it's about celebrating and remembering, right? And I would just go and I'd go, you know, 40, 50 miles and call my wife and she'd come pick me up. And so what happened is these great American citizens, they were like, hey, can I walk with you?
Speaker #1
Another Forrest Gump moment.
Speaker #0
Yeah, right? Yeah. No, I hadn't thought about that until just now. But I didn't really want to at first because I thought I craved solitude, but I didn't. I craved sincerity, not solitude. Right. There you go. And so they would start and they would tell me about their uncle. And I just fell in love. Wow. And so I was like, hey, who are you carrying? Who are you carrying? And so it turned into this. And I remember calling Steve and Holly and going, hey, I wanted to do this. Will you do this with me? And so we did the first carry the load. and it was a you know down here at Wild Rock Lake it was a 20 hour and 11 minute walk around Wild Rock Lake and it was awesome and it is like you know Holly comes from big family so it was a week before like 48 people had signed up and 30 of them related to Steven and uh but then like 800 people showed up and Alex Scott it wasn't even the end of that memorial day where people are coming up to me Great America says go hey uh I've already called my friends where are we doing this next year yeah And so the following year we did it down to this place called Riverside Park. But what we also did is we walked to Dallas from the cemetery at West Point. And that's what Coleman did. So Coleman, we were in at this- Dallas to West Point,
Speaker #1
fucking New York.
Speaker #0
Yeah. So every five miles, so beginning of the month of May, and every five miles we'd walk 24 seven. And every five miles you'd walk with a family if somebody lost somebody. Yeah, here you're carrying it and they tell you and you tell them. And I would carry Megan Valentine on my shoulders, you know, Tommy's. yeah tommy v i'd carry megan on my shoulders and and uh um and i'd walk with the sons and then we did it was awesome as i watched these kids grew up and you you go back the fifth year in a row and this this kid's like hey you're back i'm like i told you no one's gonna forget your dad we're not gonna let you know my dad died when i was young and to this day if someone walks in the room and says hey i know your dad i i just you know i don't want anybody to ever forget him because i need help remembering him Right. And young in. And one of the things, Stephen, I said is like, I want our kids to not remember not doing Memorial Day well. My oldest is 22 and she doesn't remember care a little bit about Memorial Day without carry load. And and what's amazing now, like Stephen, I retired from it because I'm an invasion guy. I'm not really an occupation guy. Once there's a bunch of spreadsheets, I'm like, Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
You know,
Speaker #0
like sometimes you need a linebacker, somebody's you quarterback and you know, we. I felt like Steven needed to, he was a better leader for the season we were in and then I needed to kind of square some things away. But it's kind of taken our life on its own now. Like people, it's what's incredible. I think we've given them something like 42 million. Yeah,
Speaker #1
we looked it up this morning. And it's something you do every morning.
Speaker #0
Every morning. Well,
Speaker #1
I don't, maybe, like just usually, like, I don't know if I could do like a fucking three-week track from.
Speaker #0
dallas too well no one really does right no one really does there's there's there's there's oh okay you just have a little okay yeah so it's five miles oh god and i think you know when i did the national relay last i think we walked with something like 30 000 people wow there you go right we had like four different relays going on east coast west coast and and uh and then you know in dallas i mean on sunday we'll have 20 25 000 people on a three-day weekend in dallas they'll come in from the lake.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
to walk for a little while and my whole thing is like it's all relative like my sister i get choked up when i think about this like my sister i have an older sister like that first year i don't know i probably did 40 something miles and stuff like that and she did six and her six meant more than my 48. because my thing is carrying more than you have to for than you think you can for someone you miss or something i wish you would have known right wow and i'll tell one story about carrie Lode as Megan. So Megan and... Her mom and her brother JT had come down to Dallas to be a part of Cary Lowe. And we carried Adam Brown this year. So we had Adam's portrait was on the bus. And we drove the bus through Hot Springs. And his daughter Savannah lives right by Katie Trail Ice House. And she sent me a picture on Monday morning. She started walking. And she walked right into the storyboard that told the story of her dad. It was really incredible. And so I'm carrying Megan. I'm carrying my daughter. And then, uh, I put Megan down and she goes, hangs out with her mom. And so Maddie, my oldest, we're kind of walking on a trail and she's old man. And she kind of looks at me and she's the old soul. She's the one that was born while I was over. And she's the one that endured most of my mistakes. I was just the most aware of them, you know, and, um, she's kind of like my protector. It's really. inverse what should be and uh and uh so we're holding hands she goes dad are you sad and i said yeah i'm sad i said but i could be sad because i miss my friends or i could be sad because i never knew such men i'll take this sad yeah you can choose your sad you can't often choose whether or not to be sad but you can choose which side you're going to be and so for me and it was you know it was interesting the weekend before we lost chris i was at an event with tay and chris and chris and i were just texting and uh yeah and um american sniper yeah it was the best i'd seen him was the best that's him and tay and uh you know i was someone with the keiko for that and uh um and uh you know we talked about that like you know it's it's it's I'd rather be sad because I miss my friends than to have never known you know someone like groove you know someone like yeah you know really me and and you know all the guy chris and you know all the guy dan i mean you know like that's the the price of admission right and and that's the cool thing about authenticity man is you know when you grab those memories only the gold kind of comes up with you and like the good stuff stays with you and and the stuff that you're afraid of tends to fall off to the side right yeah you fear rejections you share this thing that you think people are going to reject you and only ones that you don't need to be around will like there's there's a there's a culling that happens with authenticity i
Speaker #1
think there's also remembrance that happens too because you're remembering like that's like you know one thing that we've talked about before but like authenticity is the highest ranking emotion. and experience energetically above love, kindness, anything.
Speaker #2
And I think the one that connects you. Yeah,
Speaker #1
the mortar. It's like kind of a.
Speaker #0
Because all these, I mean, the palette of emotions is shared across all humanity. Right. You know, the experiences may be different, but those experiences reverse engineer into a particular emotion that is not unique to any human,
Speaker #1
right? Right.
Speaker #0
So that palette of emotions, we all draw and we all share that, right? Right, right. And John, I'll tell you that. like we you know An oversimplification, I think there's three kinds of people in the world. There's good people doing good things, good people doing bad things, bad people doing bad things. And there are bad people doing bad things. There is absolute evil. And you deal with them on their terms, right? Like every mission is a capture kill, but the bad guy gets a vote. Hey, stop it. No. Okay. Right? But the vast majority of the world is either good people doing good things or good people doing bad things. And the ultimate application of American might. is to change the circumstances to where good people doing bad things can start doing good things. And I would tell you there's not a lot of yield people in the world. Most people are good. Most people are good people doing. Of course. And even though, you know, I think good people do bad things because they're scared, coiled, coerced, or uninformed, and you alter those circumstances, but most people are good. And there's a lot to be hopeful about, right? Amen. And authenticity is what allows you to have that conversation. Right,
Speaker #1
right. And really see the person who they are.
Speaker #0
Well, you'd see it. You'd do one of the shakes and some of these other things. Oh, yeah. And all of a sudden, you see the way they treat their kid. And hey, are you a father too? And the minute, you know, there's a total language barrier, total culture barrier. But all of a sudden, you're seeing a guy love his daughter. And he knows you have a daughter too. And now you're having a different conversation. Yeah. And so I think the power of human emotions is shared across all humanity. And authenticity allows us to kind of. create those bridges where we didn't think there were any yeah yeah i agree and preserve bridges that we thought were going to blow up when you told her the truth like yeah man yeah here's what you don't know about me and we're like oh really but one i did know so now you're just being honest with me yeah and or two i sure wore that too right right it's liberating yeah i
Speaker #1
thought like one i mean one thing i thought to be close you mentioned like a gun versus a weapon yeah i love to hear your weapon what would be your weapon of choice if you would
Speaker #2
Hmm.
Speaker #0
It doesn't have to be different. No,
Speaker #2
but I like the map.
Speaker #1
Yeah. What came first? Did something come to mind? Yeah,
Speaker #2
it sure did. Yes. My heart.
Speaker #1
Your heart. Okay.
Speaker #2
Yeah. My heart, I think. And it comes to authenticity and vulnerability. Yeah. If I am connected with my fellow man, woman, fellow warrior next to me, like you were talking about your bride. My bride is that warrior. Holy cow. Yeah. And if I'm connected with that, then there's nothing that could stop us.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. I always feel like, hey, the boys know you don't know.
Speaker #2
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #0
The boys know you don't know. You're like an ensign, an lieutenant, JG, you know, whatever, right? The boys already know you don't know. And when you let them know you don't know, then they just know they can trust you. Yeah. Yeah. When the boys trust you, they are.
Speaker #1
legendary right yeah yeah yeah i mean i would say one my one would be kindness that's the first thing that come up for me is being kind that's a good one you know and that's like you know and being also not just kind of others kind of yourselves where it really starts do you think there's a distinction between being kind and being nice yes huge absolutely oh my god oh yeah i'll tell you what it is right i heard this joke right you might have heard like good so um so someone so there's two different people right east coast west coast right west coast people are nice right east coast people are kind right i uh if you have a flat tire right a um and you're on the side of the road you have flat tire someone from the west coast would drive by it's like oh my god sorry you have a flat tire that sucks right and they'll just drive on just drive on right a kind person like from new york will come and uh help you fix the tire make fun of you the whole make fun of you the whole fucking time And that's been the big funny. You're like, you know how to change your goddamn tire? What's wrong with you? As you're changing your fucking tire. I like that.
Speaker #0
What would you say the Deer Swing kind of nice?
Speaker #2
Oh, so I actually use this.
Speaker #0
And again, this is semantics, right? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker #2
No,
Speaker #1
I mean,
Speaker #0
it is. I mean,
Speaker #1
a lot of the time,
Speaker #2
the kind person is being, or sorry, the nice person is being nice because they're a people pleaser and they just want to be seen as nice.
Speaker #1
Right,
Speaker #2
yeah. Totally. The kind person is authentic. Right. And they're being that way because. Yeah. That is truly who they are. Now, a kind person doesn't have to be nice.
Speaker #0
I would say that there's times where being nice isn't kind.
Speaker #2
Exactly. Oh,
Speaker #0
yeah. Love doesn't feel like love sometimes. Yeah, it's fake.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I don't want to tell people what they fucking want to hear. Stuff like that.
Speaker #2
I don't want somebody to tell me that they love me.
Speaker #1
I don't want bullshit ever.
Speaker #0
I say nice is a behavior. Kind is a state.
Speaker #1
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker #0
There you go. And these aren't right or wrong. What we've decided is there should be a nice of being kind. Yeah. Your tradecraft is about being nice.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
You know, if you're on the tradecraft side of things, you're masterful at being nice.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
A spy. I'm being nice. Yeah, exactly. So I can ultimately not be very kind. Well,
Speaker #1
manipulative. Nice is almost.
Speaker #0
I'm being nice so I can be unkind at the time and place of my changing.
Speaker #2
Put a bullet in your head. Right,
Speaker #1
right.
Speaker #0
Allegedly.
Speaker #1
Well, this has been great, Clint. Wow. Thank you so much. Oh, my God. So much.
Speaker #0
I feel like I was random. I feel like I was all over the place. No, no.
Speaker #1
We brought you back.
Speaker #2
All boiled down to authenticity.
Speaker #1
Get on the fucking map. Get on a map. Be authentic. Be vulnerable.
Speaker #0
Don't be lost. Don't be lost. You know what I mean? Don't be lost.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
And even when you're wrong, you might not be wrong. You might just be early. Yeah. The way to know the difference is to surround yourself with authentic people.
Speaker #1
Right. Exactly.
Speaker #0
Authentic people will tell you you're wrong until you're early. And they'll always tell you you're lost. And I'm entering that conversation, you're not lost anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Lost is a choice.
Speaker #2
Last question, man, for those who are tuning in, watching, listening. Yeah. What's the best way for them to get a hold of you?
Speaker #0
LinkedIn is the only social media I somewhat understand. I have an Instagram. My daughter's told me like real Clint Bruce and I got it. I can't remember the password right now. It's okay.
Speaker #1
So it's a link.
Speaker #0
Yeah. LinkedIn and then real Clint Bruce on Instagram and the Facebook. Um, but I'm better on his better on LinkedIn. I am the other two, but I'm, but I'm getting better at Insta. Cause you know, my daughter, my wife told me to. I fear no man, but virtually all women. And my wife, yeah. She tells me, I grumble about it, but I was like my reen dance date. I mean, we've been together, you know, June. Amazing, man. Yeah, she's, her dad, there's so many stories. Her dad fell asleep and I was asking if I could marry her.
Speaker #2
Oh, dude, I got a story. We'll share after we hit the top of the record,
Speaker #0
man. But he was a scout for the Cowboys. And we went to lunch the next day and he's like, I'm out drafting. I'm like, I want to play for you. I want to marry your daughter. He's like, you can marry my daughter. I'm like, but I can marry her. If I knock a draft, I'm like, if you draft me, I wouldn't play for you. But I can marry you. He's like, yeah. And it was the most awkward lunch I've ever had. And I called Amy. She's like, how'd it go? I'm like, it was horrible. I mean, he said yes, but I've never felt worse about myself as a football player. He pulled up my draft report. He goes, you're the third worst linebacker in the draft. I was like, what? Like there's a tight end at Stanford that's never played linebacker. He's better than you.
Speaker #1
How do you know he never fucking played linebacker?
Speaker #0
Yeah. I was kidding. Exactly. But I didn't. I was scared.
Speaker #2
It's like the number four.
Speaker #0
Her dad looked like a mean, tasty casem. He's Armenian. Oh,
Speaker #1
my God.
Speaker #2
American top 40.
Speaker #0
He's terrifying. Well, this is great, man. I'm proud of you guys. I'm grateful for the effort. I'm grateful to have been included.
Speaker #1
Great to have you here. Great to be here.
Speaker #0
Austin, good work, man.
Speaker #1
Austin's our guy out here.
Speaker #0
Thank you, buddy.
Speaker #2
Full productions in. Where are we? Plano, Texas. Plano.
Speaker #1
I'm going to create a thing now about Texas.
Speaker #0
Don't be wrong. You'll be reviewed. You won't be. Okay, well,
Speaker #1
I'll be forgiven.
Speaker #2
You're wrong. You're not lost. All right. Well, hey, for our audience, thanks for tuning in. Really appreciate you being here. Thanks for listening. You got something out of this, which I know you did. I mean, so many gold nuggets there.
Speaker #1
Yeah, everywhere.
Speaker #2
Share it with your friends, family, whoever else you feel might need this. And thanks for tuning in.
Speaker #1
Yeah, leave us a review. Thank you,
Speaker #0
Clay. Yeah, man.
Speaker #1
Everybody.
Speaker #0
My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Hold fast, stay true.
Speaker #2
Thank you for joining us today. We hope you walk away with some new tools and insights to guide you on your life journey. New episodes are being published every week, so please join us again for some meaningful discussion. For more information, please check out mentalkingmindfulness.com.