- Speaker #0
Porn is a supernormal stimulus. It gives your brain very high levels of dopamine. Andrew Huberman was just on Theo Vaughn's podcast recently talking about how it's a 400% jump from baseline dopamine. Cocaine's a 450%. Part of the problem is, you know, you're young and something difficult happens and you learn that masturbation feels good. It helps you escape. It takes the edge off. It takes you out of your current present situation. It becomes your mood regulation tool. Over time, it becomes the tool. But then now you enter into high speed Internet porn with such high levels of dopamine, it just hijacks the brain. So the beautiful thing is when you start upward spiraling your brain, all of those things begin to come online. Clarity. You think more clearer. You sleep better. Physical health. Go to the gym. You get outside in nature. You call friends. You laugh. You know, you do your hobbies. People stop creating. They stop having fun because there couldn't be enough dopamine there. When you step away from dopamine dependency, all those things come online.
- Speaker #1
Raw, uncut, and unapologetic. Welcome to Men Talking Mindfulness. What if I told you that nearly 17 million American men start their day by watching porn? Not coffee, not the news, not hitting the gym. Instead, porn. And the numbers don't lie. And neither do the consequences. Broken relationships, career sabotage, and brains that are basically being held hostage. So we brought in a brain wizard, Dr. Trish Lee, world-renowned neuroscientist, and a woman who has already helped thousands of men rewire their brains and reclaim their lives. She says, control your brain or it will control you. Today, we're finding out exactly how to flip that switch. Dr. Trish, Dr. Lee, Dr. Trish Lee, welcome to the show. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
exactly. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I am very glad to be here.
- Speaker #1
Good. Awesome. We're excited to have you. Uh, just a quick announcement. We have still our, we have space available in our Spartan race on October 19th. Dr. Trish, you're welcome to join our Spartan race. It's only going to be like, yeah, it's going to be a, a 5k obstacle course down in outside of Dallas, Texas, head to mentalkingmindfulness.com to learn more about that and sign up. Uh, and we also have a weekly email list too, that anyone can join just by going to our website, mentalkingmindfulness.com. And, um, we're just going to do our one breath. grounding practice uh so uh let's everybody eyes closed or open you can do this while you're driving or walking in the grocery store but we start with a nice little exhale all the way out your mouth really get empty feel that bottom on that emptiness on that exhale take a big giant breath in feel deeply big all the way up into the head hold for three two one exhale out your mouth Let it go, let it go, let it go, let it go. And slowly come back when you're ready. And hey, thank you everyone for being here, tuning in. I know, for sharing this podcast. I know, right? We just, let's just meditate this whole episode. You know what I mean? We just do those for the next one. Because we're going to get into some pretty juicy stuff here. So let's just jump in. And like, you know, I would, I thought a great way to start was like to understand, you know, what actually pornography addiction is.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And I have to go back to the intro that you said, because that is so perfect. And I was thinking, I haven't spoken about, you know, morning porn habits in a long time. And I promise to use it to answer the question of what's happening in the brain. But, you know, a lot of men do start their day with porn. And I know that at a certain point, they begin to question it. Why do I have to consume porn in the morning? And long story short is your brain has become accustomed to needing a dopamine boost to get you through your day. That is the long story short. So we know that the brain mechanisms that fly under the radar when it comes to porn use, it's basically a dopamine dependency. And porn is a supernormal stimulus. It gives your brain very high levels of dopamine. Andrew Huberman was just on Theo Vaughn's podcast recently talking about how it's a 400% jump from baseline dopamine. Cocaine's a 450%. So you're looking for, you need a boost. Dopamine is the motivation molecule. It motivates you back to the place where you got it from. It feels like. pleasure, but it's a driving force in your life. So that's what we're talking about here. It's the chase for dopamine, but unfortunately it's insatiable and you will never find what you're looking for.
- Speaker #1
Well, I mean the dopamine, uh, itself, I mean, it's, they call it, like we actually had, uh, You might read this book, The Molecule of More, right? Yeah. So we had Michael Long, Michael Lee Long on the show. Like this guy goes back a couple couple of years, I think. But, you know, he was like, that's the driver, dopamine. And it's actually I mean, it is built into our biology in order to help us to survive, essentially. Right. And now here it is. It's like, you know, being manipulated with pornography, with gambling and so many different like, you know, technology.
- Speaker #0
It's the distortion. That's the problem. You know, like I'm sure you've heard, you know, money isn't the root of all evil. It's the constant drive for more and more money that, you know, can hijack a person. It's the same thing with dopamine. Evolutionarily, dopamine is really important to keep us alive, to keep us in tribes, to keep us thriving. And it's supposed to be linked to our purpose and our livelihood and our life and our relationships and our hobbies. All those things that not only serve us, but also serve humanity. And when it comes to porn and super normal stimuli, especially those that are digitally driven, which is the largest concern in today's day and age, it gets hijacked and it'll pull a person back into the screen away from their life.
- Speaker #1
Wow. And so so it's the dopamine that obviously we keep drives us back to more porn, more clicks, you know, watch another channel like, you know, and schooling for more. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
It's more complicated than that, of course. So from my standpoint, I use something called EEG, electroencephalogram, so I can see how people's brain perform. And there's underlying patterns that will become also drivers. They're linked to the dopamine and the need for the dopamine, but basically it's stress activation in the brain, a wired and tired brain. So every time you go back to porn, it's actually stressing the brain out. Of course, it feels good then because of the dopamine, but it's putting strain on the system. I call it strained brain. Just to make it easy to conceptualize, you have a wired and a tired pattern. You're stressed out, anxious, overstimulated, less fatigued. And that is an underlying driver to back to the dopamine. So it's caused by the porn cycle, perpetuated by it, and then relieved by it. You know, talk about your downward spiral.
- Speaker #1
Wow. So it almost like, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's we get that hit, we feel good for a moment, and then we have this massive dump. And I think I actually have a quote here, you know, by Huberman, who you're talking about, the faster the rise in dopamine, the steeper the crash, and the greater the chance of lowering your baseline dopamine level overall or over time. So and that's like, that's that hijacking.
- Speaker #0
It is. And then the lowering in baseline overall is something I call drained brain. Because basically your your arousal becomes your baseline arousal becomes lowered. This is where people will feel depression or general malaise or lack of motivation. Your get up and go, got up and went. And it's because that baseline is lowered. And now you need an extra big hit just to feel OK, to not feel bad, not even to feel good anymore. It's to not feel bad. And that's where the dependency piece comes in. And I see it in people's brains all the time on their QEG brain maps, drain brain. It leads to what I call sad sexual arousal dysfunction, namely ED, which there's a huge rise, scientific studies show. ED in young men through the roof.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. We're going to get into that a little bit later. I just want to like cover some like bases here as far as like- Sure, of course. Like the dopamine part is obviously a big driver to the addiction of porn. But why is porn itself like so highly addictive?
- Speaker #0
It is a supernormal stimulus. So, I mean, let's just go back to sex cells, right? It always has.
- Speaker #1
Exactly, yeah.
- Speaker #0
You know, sex cells and from an evolutionary perspective, speaking of the distortion, you know, I like to use the word distortion because it's a really good word. because there's these natural biological processes that are supposed to not only, you know, lock in survival, but... but allow humanity or an individual to thrive. And the mechanism of sex is the very, is a very important one. Not only, you know, it's keeping our, our planet alive with people. So the idea is the dopamine is supposed to be linked to partnered sex. And even in evolution, men are attracted to younger fertile women. So that is for procreation. That's the natural design. So when now we have porn with, you know, the easy button, the click of one button, you can have a bevy of anything that you want to be able to consume. It's hijacking that natural evolutionary drive for procreation. and distorting it. And your brain is thinking, oh, yeah, this is this is what I need to to survive. But it's not. It's been distorted and hijacked. And that's the supernormal stimulus. That is why high speed Internet pornography is so dangerous compared to, you know, old school classical porn of Playboy magazines that were hidden in the mattress, because now we have pixels over people because of all the dopamine.
- Speaker #1
Wow. And it's probably only going to get worse with AI. And I remember even those back in the day, like just the magazines. And, you know, I remember my first pornography consumption on VHS. You know, it was like after school. And my buddy, my buddy Fred, like, my God, I was not even, you know, there was like, and his mom was not coming home till five. And we throw on some old tape, you know what I mean? We're just like, my God, like 15, you know? It was, I mean, it was, it was wild, but now it's just like, I mean, it's, everyone has a phone, you know,
- Speaker #0
everyone has porn in your pocket.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Average age of exposure is down to eight years old. And it was 10 for a long time. So just think of that. And then, you know, it does hijack the brain and almost immediately it changes the baseline of dopamine to need more dopamine within the second exposure. And it's, I absolutely think it's going to get worse before it gets better. I think. AI is one component, but social media and OnlyFans, I think, is actually a larger concern because who knows, like, when AI will hit mass market that it's affecting the masses or the vast majority of people, where the interactional style on social media, totally hypersexualized, consumer and consumed, people posting hypersexualized content, mostly young women, to get the likes, external validation. men kind of manipulating women, using the likes. We know there's a significant increase in narcissism, even teenagers, self-objectification in young women. Young women are following influencers who become OnlyFans performers because the money's there. And we know that, I believe, and we know scientifically, there's an identity crisis that's upon us that we haven't even seen the ramifications because people no longer know who they are. They just know where they're getting the likes. what they're going to follow because they're getting the dopamine from that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, I feel like so much of our society is, you know, more and more people are searching for the external validation. Whereas like, you know, what we do with like mental and mindfulness and meditation, all these practices, you go within, you know, you discover who you are within and then all of a sudden, and then you can be whoever you want, you know, but it's like, especially at such a young age, which is so disturbing to hear people at eight. I mean, who knows when people just get a phone.
- Speaker #0
and social media and have the ability to connect with like millions of people like instantly um and and you have such a young brain i mean what the the brain of uh of an adult isn't fully formed into like 26 is when your executive function right is full yeah 28 for men 26 for younger women and that's why i always joke with parents that you are your child's frontal lobe until the age of 28.
- Speaker #1
well yeah exactly you have to be yeah we take a lot of cues from our parents if they're around and that's probably part of the problem here like there's not a lot of uh parenting going around and sometimes like because of how hard we're working all the time um uh and we need to work because just like things just continually get more expensive you have like no like there's like the home life is shattered for a lot of these kids and where they go and we have digitally distracted parents that's what they call them in the scientific literature so you know you have a parent who worked all day and they're vegging out on the couch on their phone.
- Speaker #0
when, you know, there's kids that need to be parented so they don't veg out on their phone. And by the way, I'm the mother of five children. So this comes with zero judgment because I've been parenting for over two decades now, you know, so it needs, it necessitates intention, especially in today's day and age.
- Speaker #1
Right. Yeah. It's wow. Good on you. Five kids. I mean, and, uh, God,
- Speaker #0
I also know how to navigate, um, you know, growing up young adults. with their devices because I know from having so many kids that it's not a one and done. Like, I can't say do this with your kid because all five of my kids have had different pitfalls with their devices, different chains that link them mentally to it. It's all different for, you know, all different kids. You have to figure out what your child needs to help regulating and be the co-regulator for them. And I've had to do that in five different ways.
- Speaker #1
Well, lots of practice. I mean, to get to where you are, you know, right, right. To be able to understand how to communicate this way.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Some big things that had to be done. some little things that had to be done with consistency for 10 years, you know, so like, I know all the things.
- Speaker #1
Coming back to dopamine, it's like, you know, how would dopamine, like, is there a way that we can understand like how, if we're experiencing a high level of dopamine or just like, is it, you know, I mean, I'd imagine it takes some level of awareness, you know, of like, of self-awareness, right? Or, and if you're, I guess if... I don't know. I mean, I don't know if that's even a good question.
- Speaker #0
You're totally with me. And what I was going to say is that, you know, they're called the four pillars of emotional intelligence. You're already talking about them. The first one is self-awareness, which leads to self-regulation, which leads to social relationship awareness, which leads to social relationship management. Those are the four pillars. And the more you're chasing down dopamine externally, the less in touch with. what's going on with you internally. So the easiest way to think about it is the more you're caught up in this, the less, the least amount of self-awareness you have. And that I believe is the trickiest thing is that you can't see it. So what I teach people, I have programs that help people not only quit porn, but figure out how to establish the lifestyle that will make it so that they never need to go back. And one of the exercises in the hardwire section, it's broken up into unwire, rewire and hardwire. And the hardwire section is ways that you can know you're moving backwards towards needing dopamine so that you're not counting on your own self-awareness. There's an external thing you can look for in your own behaviors or your own thought processes. I call it a fault line activity where you figure out like where the fault line is before you have the earthquake happen.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, that's going to take a certain amount of self-awareness. And if you're, you know, if you're, if you start, I can only, you start seeing porn at this day and age and 14, 15 years old and your friends are doing, and you're in these circles, you know, of influence. It's like you're, how do you, God, it's got to be really difficult to climb out.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, a hundred percent. That's why I, I, you know, I, I'm accused of hyperbole quite often, but people don't see the brains that I've seen. Honestly, I think. I don't know if there's another person on earth who has heard the stories that I've heard. I've heard it all in terms of porn and sexual addiction, how people are caught up in this, the depth it will take a person. So I tell people, you have to be a top 1% person more than ever, because it goes back to what you're saying. I use the adage of the fish. There's a fish swimming around in the... in the fishbowl, another fish comes, he's sitting on the rim and he's like, how's the water? And the first fish says, what's water? You know, like everybody's in it. Our devices are so commonplace. Porn's accepted and normalized in younger people. Hookup culture is totally accepted. So you have to be able to take a step back and go, this water is not for me. This will never get me to where I want to go. But that goes back to identity formation. You have to know who you are, what you stand for, and what you want out of life. So, and you know, and that fault line activity that I just told you about, it's in the hardwire section for a purpose. Because I help people unwire the need for porn, rewire their lifestyle, their brain and their habits in the rewire section. Then when their self-awareness is a lot higher, then they can go, oh yeah, like if I work seven days straight with no breaks, that's a fault line. I didn't get any time off. If I have an argument with my partner, that could be a fault line that leads me to run for some dopamine. It's different for all people, but that's the thing you have to make sure you don't do. And if it happens, you have a plan.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, what about like consumption of between men and women? Like, is there a major difference between, you know, pornography consumption between like males and females? Yeah,
- Speaker #0
it was a lot more consumption with men. Even though, you know, we we want to make this gender neutral. My book, I have a book out. It's called Mind Over Explicit Matter. It was geared solely towards men. And actually, I'm very grateful. It's published through HarperCollins. I'm very grateful that they made me include women because I'm like at first I was resistant. I'm like I'm talking to like the one percent of women and I'm talking to the ninety nine percent of men. So why would I water this down? Like, why would I water it down? I didn't want to lose sight, you know, but the way that I included, I was very excited because I included like, you know, 50 shades and, um, Game of Thrones, where a lot of women are watching that and rapes just completely normalized. And that, that actually wasn't even included in Game of Thrones in the, in the original book, they added it to the, to the television series, like that's the culture we're living in now. So, but you know, back to the question is it's the vast majority are, is men. And then unfortunately women are learning to be self objectified. So they're caught up in it, but just in a different way as the consumed and men are the consumers.
- Speaker #1
God, self-objectified is hard to hear, you know, for women. I mean, it's like they're just like feeding.
- Speaker #0
As the mom of three girls, I've had to, you know, honestly, I have one daughter who if she ever hears me talk about these things, she'll kill me. But she knows the the importance of this. Like she was caught up in putting hypersexual content on Instagram. And, you know, I told her. I'm your frontal lobe, babe. Like either you need to stop doing that or I'll take your phone away. I took her phone away and she went off the rails and I'm like, you can have it back when you're back on the rails. She couldn't get herself on the rails. I canceled her phone number. She freaked out and, but she now thanks me for doing that because that part is over. And then I have another daughter who wears giant baggy clothes because she doesn't want to be hyper sexualized. And then I have, it's, it's kind of like a Goldilocks, right? And the, yeah. You know, one bed's too hard, one bed's too soft. Then my youngest daughter, probably because we talk about it so much more openly now. You know, she's gorgeous. She's not hypersexualized at all. She's confident. She only uses social media for her purpose and passion.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Just right.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. Is that one of the younger ones?
- Speaker #0
That porridge is just right.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Is that one of your younger daughters?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, she's my last. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
exactly.
- Speaker #0
She's my fifth.
- Speaker #1
She gets all the good parenting from all the mistakes. It is. Right?
- Speaker #0
It really is true. It really is true. But, you know, I feel like I worked the first two, you know, through that. They don't, you know, neither of my older daughters exist in that realm anymore, but they did. And, you know, Billie Eilish, that's what Billie Eilish says. She wore giant baggy clothes for so long because she didn't want anybody to see her body because she would be criticized or sexualized. Right. And that's a valid.
- Speaker #1
Especially being a public figure like that. Yeah. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
I agree. You know, it's a valid concern. So I get it. You know, I had a daughter who was in that space. So thankfully, neither. They're out of those spaces. It came from intentional parenting. And it's the water is supporting all of that. You know, that's the point.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, that's what I like about having this conversation with you is not just, you know, we're talking about science here. I mean, looking at these brain scans, you can see, you know, when, you know, a porn brain or not porn brain, you know, a brain that's been. I'd imagine hijacked on porn for years, years and years and years or decades versus one that is slowly coming off like years of porn addiction. And you talk about like those Gans. Yeah. Like, what does it, I mean, so if someone is like, we're getting into the nitty gritty of like, you know, the approach of like letting go of porn, but the, uh, just like, what's like, what does it take typically, you know, from what you're doing to get off of porn? Like if someone's really like, you know what, this is destroying my life. It's destroying my relationships. It's like, I need to change. Like where do they begin and what's the process or how long would it take to.
- Speaker #0
The easiest way to think of it. I've on my website, I updated my website. I now talk about it as a pleasure pathway reset. And, you know, it's a double entendre. It's the pleasure pathways in your brain, the reward center in the midbrain and the reward pathways that feed. forward to the prefrontal cortex, we know that they are impacted by porn use and that dopamine hijacking. Those pathways literally need to be retrained back to the optimal brain performance pattern. And going back to what we were talking about, if a person's brain is hijacked at the age of 10, we'll just say they've never developed the healthy optimal brain pattern. So the people I work with, they feel better and they perform better than ever before. And their minds are blown. And then, of course, we have to also retrain through habit loops, the pleasure pathways back into your life. And to me, that's the, I guess, most tragic part is that when you get hooked on all the dopamine from the screen, then your work doesn't do it for you anymore. There's not enough dopamine there. There's not 400 percent, which there never would have been, you know, but your relationship doesn't do it for you. Your partner and all of these things are supported by science. People start doing stop, stop doing their hobbies. So. We need a pleasure pathway reset in both ways, in the brain and in the habits and the lifestyle. It has to be comprehensive. It's not just about giving up porn. It's about not needing dopamine fundamentally at a neurological level. All of my work is measurable, too. That's the most fun part of my work, I think, is that I can do a brain map and I can see the baseline performance pattern. But then the program that I offer is four months long, not an eternity. Some people think this is going to take an eternity. But I use advanced technology to teach a brain and to retrain it. And then we can see the brain coming online day by day. And within the first month, there's there tends to be usually a very large shift from where the person was. into a new pattern that doesn't need dopamine. And this is where the magic happens with the flywheel and the upward spiral.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, well, what are some of those outcomes that you do see when people start to reclaim their brain, their time and their relationships and their career, you know, and actually are a person in the world instead of, I'd imagine, like, thank God I'm not, I'm so happy I'm not addicted to porn, but just waiting for the next fix, you know, like any addiction.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I... Talked to a gentleman today, and he's one of thousands of men that I've talked to with a similar story. But, you know, basically he has sites on when he really downward spiraled. And the reason he had the sites on it is because of the increase in anxiety, feeling depressed, sad, sexual arousal dysfunction, having ED. His partner left him because of all of those things. Not able to focus on his work, so his finances are... decreasing. So it can permeate every aspect of a person's life. And it's so sneaky. It happens over time, usually a longer time frame. So people don't connect the dots on, you know, all these things that are happening in their life are connected to porn. And that's why I started speaking out about it so that people can go, oh, and then they start connecting the dots. But it permeates every aspects. So the beautiful thing is. When you start upward spiraling your brain, all of those things begin to come online. Clarity. You think more clearer. You sleep better. Sleep is trashed by porn. So immediately a person starts sleeping better, makes everything better. Physical health. You know, hit the gym now because you're not in front of your screen for endless hours. You go to the gym. You get outside in nature. You call friends. You laugh. You know, you do your hobbies. I've had so many clients. A question on my intake. is what do you do to have fun? You know, so many people put N-A, not applicable. That's not acceptable to me. You know, I'm like, not acceptable. I ask, what do you do to be creative? Nothing. I don't know. This is because all the dopamine is now in the screen. People stop creating. They stop having fun because there couldn't be enough dopamine there. When you step away from dopamine dependency, all those things come online.
- Speaker #1
Wow. I mean, that's, well, that's good to hear. uh yeah i mean it's really encouraging to hear like these upward spiraling people and one thing that i really appreciate consuming your content and uh and just like you know what we're trying to create here with men talking mindfulness is is you know just help having people like get into life like have real life experiences go to a concert you're just saying you know as we took that little break you know it's like and do things like really connect with people in a meaningful way and like in real life way. And we get to learn about ourselves when we do these things as well.
- Speaker #0
You can have real intimacy with your partner. When your brain's looking for dopamine, your partner just looks like a weak dopamine supplier. We know this from science, like satisfaction with how your partner looks, satisfaction with your sex life, hanks because it couldn't compare to the supernormal stimuli. But then you guess what you miss out on? you miss out on all the intimacy being seen by a person who loves you and shows up again to be with you, who wants to be with you for real, not for, not for fake, you know, like that's what is so cool. When, when people go through this journey, they end up getting the relationship that they wanted. They feel free. There's no more shame. Most people feel just, you know, this dissonance and incongruency, the person they want to be and the person they know they are and hiding. So yeah, no, it's all there for the taking. It's amazing.
- Speaker #1
What usually comes along with pornography consumption is masturbation, which I have a lot of experience with. Like I think a lot of men do, you know?
- Speaker #0
Is that personally or helping?
- Speaker #1
I mean, well, no. Come on. With myself alone, you know, very often.
- Speaker #0
Thank God,
- Speaker #1
yes. But what are some of the details? Well, masturbation, it's like, let's just kind of define chronic masturbation versus like healthy masturbation. So let's go to healthy masturbation first and then we can go into- I would contend that doesn't apply.
- Speaker #0
That applies to, remember how I told you 99% of men are caught in- porn to some level and there's science that shows even if you consume porn one time a month it still impacts you so you know how i contended this is affecting the vast majority thus healthy masturbation would only apply to one percent of men well okay because if you're caught up even to a small amount and going to something outside of your internal brain and nervous system to regulate yourself. you're looking for an external source for mood regulation. That's how the vast majority of people who are using masturbation are using it. So you go to it to take the edge off, release stress, release boredom. Confusion of libido and actual sexual feelings becomes, it becomes very skewed. So people think they feel sexual, but they're actually just feeling the call for mood regulation. So first, let's say healthy masturbation really only applies to people who don't have a porn habit and could take or leave masturbation, basically.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I made a commitment a few months, a couple months ago, and I think I'm on my third month doing this. Like I was just I mean, full disclosure, a little transparency, a little embarrassing as well. But I definitely am not the only man out there that's had this. You know, I just like it was just too often. you know, like once a day or every other day or several times a week. You know, I'm a little older now.
- Speaker #0
And I can just offer you something and offer it to, you know, your audience too. If you make a commitment, which is what you said, you made a commitment. I did. Like if you have to make a commitment to decrease a behavior, then that means that behavior is worthy of consideration and questioning at least. Like, you know, I don't have to commit to. eating less salads let's just you know what i mean like right right like if if you had to look inside and go i gotta commit to working on this then there's something there well yeah well we had uh another uh woman on the show talking about pornography
- Speaker #1
and masturbation and she talks about um masturbation like it could exist as a shame cycle and uh you know so for me i was like you know and i'm like oh my god am i living all the shame all the time like you know trying to escape obviously masturbation feels good uh um so what i've been doing the last few months is like i just once a month and i've come to this conclusion or i found this because i mean i'm always in this space like doing a lot of this work uh having all these conversations reading all sorts of different information about um you know how to be just a a stronger clear-minded calmer more relaxed, more helpful, you know, more like servant oriented man. And one of the things that was helpful to me is like, oh, well, I'm going to keep my potency, you know, instead of like, you know, orgasming, you know, through masturbation and just kind of releasing my potency. Is there any truth to that? Like, you know, about like kind of the lowering of your energy, lowering of testosterone or like releasing testosterone through orgasm and then having, you know, like time in order to regain that testosterone, which is. incredible for the body and the mind and how we are in the world as men.
- Speaker #0
So first, just one quick comment is that like reducing masturbation to one time a month, I encourage people who are caught up in a compulsion, even if it's one time a week, to schedule masturbation so you're not using it as mood regulation. And I call it a masturbation meditation. Use it as a way, as an embodiment exercise to connect with yourself and to be with the sensations in your body, not dissociating to fantasy, which is generally porn informed, which most men are caught in that, not euphoric recall, not imagination. You stay in your body embodiment. And then that can actually help you tap into healthy sexuality and not stay in compulsion. And then to speak to the second point, absolutely. There's research. One thing that I am good at that other people don't spend time doing, honestly, I think, but it's something I love to do is to look at all different research studies and connect the dots. So I'll read a research study and I'll be like, OK, well, why would that be? And then I'll look at the next one. and connect the dots between research studies. When I did this, in terms of what your question is in terms of testosterone, it makes perfect sense, is that basically the more you orgasm or ejaculate, that you are depleting the system, including testosterone. Testosterone is made in the brain before in the genitals. So it goes back to your brain. I know people think everything I say, I bring it back to the brain, but it is true. You know, that's where testosterone is made. So basically, if you're overworking the system, you're depleting it. And you know, one time a week, yes, that's better than a lot of the people I work with. It's daily masturbation. It's cyclical. People who are really wrapped up in it, it's three, four times a day. People who have the compulsion, they will see someone at the mall and have to go masturbate to the lusting. Like, and that's not an exception. That's not, that's actually not even really, I wish that was like 1%. That's not, that's. I've been there. To many, many, many people who are just, their brain is trained. You see someone who's, you know, you check them out at the mall, you have to go release to that. So very depleting for the system. And just one more cool thing that happened on accident is I have a client who's a bodybuilder and he happened to have had his testosterone tested right before working with me. It's a four month program. He happened to have his, his, all of his, you know, blood work and hormones and that all check happened to at the four month mark. And he was in such stronger shape all around and he could feel it too. He's like, this is insane. He's like, I never realized how much it was impacting me.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And he was like probably wet whacking it for a few, few days a week or more. Oh yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, especially someone like a bodybuilder, um, and this speak to like peak performers that. don't want to put substances into their body. So they won't use, you know, illicit drugs. They won't drink a lot of alcohol. Porn is the perfect medicinal for them, but they don't understand, especially someone who, you know, is a high level physical performer. I work with a decent amount of high level athletes. And, you know, the reason that they are with me is because they're depleting their systems in this way.
- Speaker #1
Well, you know, I like to get into like the more of the root cause, if you will, of of chronic masturbation as well as like pornography. Like there's gotta be some sort of emptiness happening or, you know, is it, uh, is it a shame cycle that's moving through? And like, you know, let's get even down like a deeper level. I mean, it's like getting what, what is missing in order for this behavior to come forth.
- Speaker #0
You know, honestly, I think it's more, that's more of the egg than the chicken and I'll tell you why, because like, um, in more classic porn use before high speed internet. porn, which we already talked about before that and more of a classical condition or addiction, older people, you know, basically 60 and over, they would use masturbation when they were young with Playboy magazines for mood regulation. So part of the problem is this is part of the problem for everybody. But part of the problem is, you know, you're young and something difficult happens and you learn that masturbation feels good. It helps you escape. It takes the edge off. It takes you out of your current present situation. So it becomes a tool, a tool to escape when reality gets difficult. So your parents are arguing, you go in your bedroom and masturbate. You don't feel as bad anymore that your parents are arguing. You get bullied at school. It becomes your mood regulation tool. Over time, it becomes the tool. But then now you enter into high speed internet porn with such high levels of dopamine, it just hijacks the brain. So even if there isn't this internal trauma, or, you know, really like this need for mood regulation, it's more of a habit loop, a habit loop that's built on very high levels of dopamine from an early age. And then of course, there's a combined version of that also. So the newest version affects younger people more who grew up on high speed internet porn, you know, people in their 20s, mid 20s, people in their 30s and 40s, it tends to be a combination. It's need for dopamine plus the habit loop.
- Speaker #1
Well One thing that coming back to that habit loop, especially developing. a connection to pornography and masturbation at a young age. It's like, you know, I have a lot of, you know, I've trained in yoga and meditation. And one of the things with meditation that is helping us to wake up to are these patterns of behavior. And they call them in Sanskrit, they call them sankara. And sankara is like an agrarian term, which means a rut. And if you just keep, you know, and that's how I used to plant seeds. They have like, you know, they would plow the field and they would, you know. But these Sankara, if you keep running over that same rut over and over and over again, it just gets more calcified, more cemented, and it's really tough to pull out of them. And this is like, I can imagine why, especially at a young age, you're developing a habit of like, whatever, it's like you had this one trigger that happened and, you know, all this kind of feels good in some ways, and it definitely is a way to escape. But then to pull yourself out of that that could be very, very challenging.
- Speaker #0
And. And in the brain, speaking of calcification, there is a transcription factor. It's called Delta Fos B. And I always refer to it as kind of like cement that's being laid on the neural pathways. So the more you traverse these neural pathways, it's exactly what you just said, but from a neurological standpoint, you're traversing these pathways over and over and over and over. And then you're not traversing the other ones that would lead you to pleasure, the happiness trifecta. pleasure from dopamine, lower levels, serotonin for joy and oxytocin for connection. If you don't do those things, then you're not using those neural pathways. And that's why I said like, this is also sneaky because that shift kind of happens over time. You know, there was a young person and who used to love soccer, but then he found porn and masturbation. So he's still playing soccer, but he's, you know, masturbating to porn. And then before you know it, hasn't played soccer. That's why I ask people. the question, you know, what do you do to be creative? What are your hobbies? And then when I meet them, I say, okay, you love hockey. When's the last time you played hockey? And this is the response, nine out of 10 times. 10 years ago, you know, people stopped doing the hobbies because the dopamine's not there. So all of this works together. Unfortunately, it's very complex. Porn addiction and sex addiction, very complex. Like to me, when I first figured out the complexity, it was mind boggling to me. There's so many layers. And like you're talking about the layer of shame, just to get back to that, there is a shame layer. There is for sure. And for some people, shame is the catalyst or the chicken. For most people in today's day and age, it's the egg that you're caught up in this cycle and the cycle's getting worse. And maybe you're not aware of it, or maybe you are, but you can't help it anymore. And then there's so much shame where you want to go to your kid's, you know, soccer game, but you pass on it. because you can be at home alone. And now you're missing out on that because the need for dopamine overrides that joy you would have had in the world. That's the shame. The shame is, and then most of this is secretive. People aren't sharing this with their partners. So, you know, you're sharing about masturbation here. So, you know, that's open, but most people aren't. They're keeping all of this hidden. And I always call that Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. They go out in the world and they look super shiny, but that dissonance inside where they know they have a need, they have a need that needs a fix, and they've got to get their fix, and that does not compute, and they do not like that. And at a certain point, like you said, there's a wake-up call where they go. And usually that wake-up call is something, you know, it's a moment that happened, not just another time of consuming porn and it's usually ED these days, you know, a 20 year old with ED. And then he hears me say it's from porn and wake up. I've got ED at the age of 20 because I've been watching porn for 10 years.
- Speaker #1
Well, let's dive into that or dive into that erectile dysfunction piece like about how it kind of happens. I mean, it is the over-sexualization. It is the the massive amount of dopamine that you're used to, you know, during. sexual experiences, you know, through pornography or even an imagination. And then you're in real life and things aren't happening, you know, the same way that you wanted them to within a particular sexual experience. So how does this lead and contribute to ED? And then, yeah, please. And we can keep going down that path.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Baseline arousal is shifted, like we've talked about, and the brain now needs 400% dopamine. And even before Andrew Huberman talked about that, What I have been saying is that. When you have healthy baseline arousal, we'll call it a level five. Like you're sitting on the couch, you're just chilling. You feel calm. You feel totally alert. You're not tired. You're not stressed. Baseline arousal, five. We've already established most people are wired and tired. Wired and tired is your nervous system's at a nine in terms of stress, and you're exhausted. You're at a two. But unfortunately, nine and two don't add up to seven. What they add up is to, I call it the pendulum effect. You're out in the extremes, which you're very far away from five. If you keep hitting the easy button of porn, you flood your brain with dopamine. It desensitizes the dopamine receptors in the brain. They no longer light up like they used to. So that level five isn't five anymore. It's completely dulled. It's down at two. So then now you're really far away. And so you're no longer at a five, which would have been healthy arousal. And your partner comes along and your brain's used to, you know, just the healthy levels of dopamine where you go from a five up to an eight. Or I always joke, eight or a nine on a good day, right? If your partner's not mad at you and your five kids aren't around and your dog's not barking and you don't have to be to work in 39 minutes, you know, you go from a five to an eight or a nine so you can have a nice, engaging sexual experience with your human partner. But now your brain needs a 15 or a 20, depending upon the level of intensity of the porn you've been consuming. And we know there's tolerance building and escalation. So usually a porn habit over time goes from a level 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, you'll need more and more and more. And that's the danger of high speed internet porn. It's all there. People get baited into clicking the next thing that takes them up a level of dopamine and you know, they're off to the races with escalation. Wow.
- Speaker #1
And, and as they continually do that, they're just diminishing. their relationship in real life, in real time relationship that they're having. And it's like, and that calls all the problems.
- Speaker #0
Partners aren't stupid, you know, partners aren't dumb. They can feel all of that. And that's where a lot of the shame comes from too. Then there's performance anxiety on top of it, you know, which we already said the stress isn't good for the underlying baseline arousal. So now it's time to be with your partner. You know, you need a level 20. You're super stressed out. Your partner's like, what is going on? And you know, it's from porn and you haven't shared that. or you have an inkling it's porn. You haven't shared that with your partner. That's why a lot of men will go watch porn real quick before they're with their partner, but then you're just keeping your brain dependent or they'll go to fantasy while with their partner. You're keeping yourself dependent on high levels of dopamine. So the solution is get back to healthy baseline arousal. And then your partner actually looks so much better to you again. It's amazing actually. And people have better sex lives than ever when they step away and heal their brain.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, it's like it's a false reality, like all this overstimulation and with dopamine and just wanting to fulfill. I'm like more of a fantasy guy. I'm not a porn guy, but it's like that's definitely gotten in the way of my relationships in the past. Like, you know, some sort of sexual experience is not, you know, meeting, you know, what my brain or like how I've been, you know, kind of masturbating to. to sexual experiences, you know, and in real time. And it's like, you know, it's a real person. It's like, it's, it's a different thing. I mean,
- Speaker #0
it's pretty wild too. Like if you think about that in terms of fantasy, is that like, if you never saw porn, what would your fantasy be? Right. It would be the highest level of experience that you ever had. That would be the bar for the highest level of dopamine. And inherently that's the problem is that even if people don't have a quote unquote porn addiction, if they've been exposed to porn and now their fantasy is up there at level 17, now your partner comes along and no partner, actually an emotionally healthy partner, likely doesn't want to do the things that would be up at a 17. Because usually those things are violent, they're objectifying of women, and they're for the highest amount of pleasure for one partner, not for that happiness trifecta for both people.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
Right. And so the point of that is the porn is the catalyst for a lot of the issues people have. And one other thing that I wanted to talk about, too, is that the reinforcement loops aren't just porn, too. Also, like porn is one reinforcement loop. So we know young people are being exposed to porn more than ever. There's scientific studies that show the younger you're exposed, the higher the frequency of consumption over the teen and adult years. So basically The earlier you see it, the more you end up using it. Then we have the reinforcement loop of social media because these dynamics are happening there and they're becoming twisted and distorted. So now you go on social media and you're kind of playing out. the dynamics of consumer and consumed. Then now that is permeating real life relationships. And so you have three reinforcement loops, not just porn itself, but porn's the catalyst.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's, oh God, it just gets, it's like layers upon, like you said, it was complex earlier. I mean, it's just layers and layers and layers of behavior. And, you know, and then we're continually being, you know, brought into that behavior by just living our lives, having our phones, like also the conversations that we're in with. You know, people like that's also where we learn about sex, like talking to your friends like, oh, my God, I did this, I did that. And then you get that thought in your head. It's like, oh, I could do that, too. You know, and it's like.
- Speaker #0
And even just the objectification that like happens out in the world, there's there's studies that show that over 70 percent of boys that are 14 years old ask for nudes from girls, 70 percent that's happening. And same thing. a little over 70% of boys send unsolicited genital pics to girls. Like these are the dynamics that are happening all over the place now, all, you know, being facilitated by digital devices. That's why you have to be a top 1% person and you have to be willing to talk to your kids about this, which yeah, it might make you uncomfortable, but going back to those emotional intelligence pillars, you get the opportunities to increase them.
- Speaker #1
What do you mean when you say that? top 1% person? Like what would that help? I imagine that would be a person. Yeah. Uh-huh.
- Speaker #0
But I love this too. So going back to the evolutionary aspect, I started saying this on accident. I'm sure it's because I had all this research in my mind. Going back to Darwin, Darwin studies show that in pair bonded creatures, which we are, humans are, that the top level females would select the top level males. And it's like this in a lot of pair bonded animals, which would leave the lower tiered men to be selected by the lower tier females. Cool, right? So like if you want an awesome partner and you want to create this amazing relationship, you have to be a top level partner to be selected by said top level women, because men say to me all the time, like in comments, you know, usually they're, I know they're very wounded men, but they're kind of hating on me. Like you just say that because you have a partner. I don't have a partner. I'm like, if you want a partner, you've got to be a partner that somebody wants to be with. And we know this from new studies that, you know, masculine vitality is at risk of being destroyed by everything that we're talking about here. Um, less men than ever are getting into college and out. more women are graduating. For the first time ever in history, the younger generation's worse off in physical and mental health. First time ever, right? It's been getting better and better and better. And now with devices, it's getting worse. More men, because of socioeconomic reasons, are living with their parents longer. They don't move out and get their own places to live. They can't find jobs and keep them. It all goes back to their brains being in the mode of passive consumption for... instant gratification. All the things I just named, they require perseverance, persistence, delayed gratification, which that's not what high levels of dopamine aren't over there. Lower levels of dopamine that lead to a little bit more when you finally use executive function skills to achieve your goals. That's what brains need to be retrained to do. So back to the question of top 1%. A top 1% person has to say, I'm not going to use porn. I'm not going to masturbate. What I'm going to do is find a partner and create an awesome sex life with that person. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not anti-sex at all. I tell people get a partner and, you know, agree to what's fun for both of you and, and get it going as much as possible if you want, you know, that's what a top 1% person is. Figure out who you are. What do you care about? There you go. What do you want to do? What do you want to add to the world? Go do it. You have the courage to do it. Even if your mom, your cousin, and your brother think you're crazy, do it anyway.
- Speaker #1
Right. Yeah. Well, I think it's like part of getting onto that 1% path is like, I mean, coming back to what I said earlier is getting control of your brain. You know what I mean? Like, and it's like, you know, right. And if you're not in control of your brain, then everything else is, and you're going to be easily manipulated, easily just. doing things that you don't necessarily you know why you're doing them you're just like everyone doing them because you don't really have that that like who am i you know and that's i mean that's a deep question for everyone to answer but it's like i mean it's worth you know asking that question Getting to those answers and then really not just in the mind, but discovering who you are in real time with real people, real circumstances. And it's like, and that's when you begin to develop the confidence. That's when you, you know, become, get to know, you know, deeper who you are. Because it's a nonstop process. I think that people, you know, they just think it's a goal or just like, oh, well, I'll do that one, whatever. Whereas like it could start right now. What are some ways that, yeah, go ahead.
- Speaker #0
Going back to, just for one second, going back to yoga and meditation, even my work with neuroregulation, most people don't have any quiet space to even, like, ask that question and contemplate it. There's no quiet. There's no quiet. Everybody's passively consuming. They're producing. They're at work. They're at school. Then they come home and they just passively consumed. All noise. N. And getting quiet, that's the first step in being able to have that thought. Oh, I like pottery. Maybe I'll take a pottery class. But what happens is you're on, you know, whatever social media and you see 27 things and, you know, you've got this distracted brain. The quiet is important to begin the journey.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. One thing, and let me know if you agree, like one thing that I teach with the men I work with and, you know, through courses that we have here, it's like how start your day on your terms. you know, get up, like, you know, have like create a little morning ritual, even if it's just 20 minutes, you know, cause then you just continually constitute a new reference point and be like, oh wait, like I can control my energy. I can control my time. I can control my mind. And, and, and then it just slowly leads to builds a little bit more, a little bit more. And it's just like, oh, I mean, it's really, it's important.
- Speaker #0
I talk about onus of control all the time, agency and most beautiful morning routine that I've had for so long. that I will never give up. And even like on the busiest of days, I'll preserve it. And now I do it for a pretty long time, but that's the way that I start my day. Just completely.
- Speaker #1
What do you got? What do you got? You can film yours. I'll show you mine. Yeah. What do you got? What do you do? What's your morning routine?
- Speaker #0
Well, usually what I do is I read, I sit in quiet. My husband will sit next to me. I look and I'm like, I don't know what you're doing there, man, but don't talk, you know, because I talk all day long. So I. is when it's not a hundred degrees out, I go outside, like outside on my back porch, I have a hummingbird feeder. There's three hummingbirds at it. Like it is so cool watching hummingbirds dive bomb each other while I read. And I just sit there too. Like I will literally just sit there and I will have thoughts. And then I always have a journal and sometimes I have a napkin. I'll make coffee and I'll write on the napkin when thoughts come to me and then I'll just sit again. I don't, I don't. chew on that thought. I just write them down to think about it later. And before you know it, like an hour's passed. It's wonderful. And then I'll start to focus. I don't check my phone. There's days I don't even check my phone. I haven't checked email today. I will not check email until like one deliberate time in the day to see if there's anything I need to catch up on. I have no notifications on. You know, it's just, I have my... My calendar is in Google Calendar. I follow my appointments. I have break times that are set in so that I know when I have a break. I'm never trying to squeeze something in. You know, that's what regulation is. And then to talk about the onus of control and the days that feel like they're getting away from me, I will just go sit on my front porch for five minutes. Like, you know, I live a busy life. I've got a lot of kids. I'm like, but this is my life. I'm creating it. At any given time, I can shut any of it down. but I definitely can take a five minute break.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I think it's important for people to realize like there's a big difference between reactivity and responsibility and responsiveness. You know, and another thing that, you know, we have a meditation course that actually we're going to put out there in October again. Like we've done four different teams of meditators that come through our course over some nine week live course. And it's been great and very helpful for mostly men that have gone through the course. And one of the reasons, one of the ways that I get men, get them into the conversation of how meditation can help them is like, is getting, if we're always doing, if we're always, if we're waking up and, you know, immediately connecting with our phone and doing, checking our email or checking social media or maybe doing some porn like 17 million men are doing every morning. It's like, and we're just doing, we're always in this space of doing, or maybe you get up and you work out and you go running or something like that. It's like, what if you, what's in the non-doing space? Yeah, definitely. Life is in opposition. Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And my husband said it the other morning, he's like, I can't wait to, cause we're doing some cleansing and things like that. We both have, we work out almost every day, but he's starting a new thing. So he goes, I can't wait to wake up. and hit the ground running. He's like, right now I'm sitting here with you, but I wish I was already out for a run. And I said, I would suggest that's not how the healthiest brain performance would be. And he's looking at me, you know, cause I'm like, easing into your day is healthy circadian rhythms. If you hit the ground running, you likely were running too hot throughout the sleep cycle. Like that's, you know, easing in and having that quiet time. We know from meditation studies that, you know, in those early hours of the morning, that is the time for creativity. So the way I've structured my schedule is that I have my morning routine, which I do meditate in that timeframe too, is that, you know, and that's why, well, just to speak to that for one second, like when you do a one breath grounding, once you experience the practice of meditation, you can feel the downshift in one breath. Like for me, that one minute together, I can feel myself just come all the way down because of the practice. That is the gift that it gives you. Later on, if something stressful happens, you take a big breath and you downshift and now you can respond and not react. Like it's such a gift, you know? But, you know, that's why I said to the hubs, I'm like, I don't think it's good for you to jump out of bed and go for a sprint. Like, you know, this time, this quiet time that you're spending right now is invaluable for the rest of your day.
- Speaker #1
Well, I think a lot of people, it's important to establish, to get to. to get to know thyself you got to go you got to slow down you got to go on the inside and when you go on the inside you begin to you create a reference point of stillness and peace and you know what it means to just like just to be here just to be present without trying to fill it with whatever and it's like and and that that's where it really begins that's how you really begin to take ownership of everything you're going to do that particular day and the rest of your life Me, I get up early, like Monday through Friday, I get up at 4.30 in the morning, and I just do a little, either I'm reading something or I'm gonna journal. I'm brewing some coffee during that time as well, have some coffee. And then I take like an hour for the morning time. It's like a 20, 20, 20 is what I end up doing. So it's like 20 minutes of just reading, getting into my day, doing a little bit of journaling. um, have some coffee, uh, during that time. And then I'll do like 20, 10, 15 minutes of just some movement, like getting in my body a little bit, get my, you know, my body working for me, get some neurochemistry, like working. And then I sit and I meditate and then I'll sit and meditate for like 20, 25 minutes and just really begin to slow things down. Uh, and then I'm like, okay, now I'm ready. Now I can pick up my phone. Now I can get into my rest of my day, but it's like starting on my terms, you know what I mean? It's like, and it could be different for everybody. And it's like, and I kind of like what you're saying about the hubs, you know, maybe don't go out and run right away. Like, what if you just like be still for a little bit? Because that could like, I get a lot of pushback sometimes in meditation. I'd be like, we even had Jocko Willink on the show and he was pushing back on meditation. He's like, oh, well, I surf. And I was like, dude, like, yeah, but you're still in the doing space. You're still waiting for a wave. You're still, I get it. You know what I mean? But it's, or people like, oh, I go running. That's my meditation. I'm like, uh, you know, um, I guess, you know. Meditation isn't necessarily for everyone, but like, I think it's very helpful.
- Speaker #0
Well, you know what they're talking about? They feel like it's meditation because what all, like, especially running and surfing would probably do the same thing. It is something called transient hypofrontality. So basically it like decreases functioning of the frontal lobe. So you feel better. It's very good for you, but it's not the same as actively regulating from within. And I like to do both of them. That's why I work out every day. And then it goes back to the self-awareness too, where first of all, I think having a morning routine like that sets the foundation of the why of your whole day. Because if not, you can get caught up in the overstimulation of worldly values, you know, like which are primarily pleasure that ultimately equals pain, you know? So when you start from a more quiet space. You remember why you're going through the day, even if it's just like for me, it's always about showing up for people and helping them to become the best versions of themselves through neurological regulation and finding purpose and passion. And then, of course, you know, my kids also in my family. But that requires a lot of me, a lot of doing. I do the whole rest of the day. So that's why I think it's interesting where my husband's kind of like he looks at me like you should be doing more than just sitting around. But I'm like. This is the only time I sit around because I am a high performer and I'm not sitting around not doing anything. I'm being. And from the being comes the ability to do all the doing with the right mindset. Like without that time to be, the rest of the doing would be misinformed. It would be built on a different foundation.
- Speaker #1
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And again, it's like, and then you're working from the inside out, which is the most important thing, you know, and you continually discover. I mean, I'm sure like myself, it's like, you know, you, you give yourself this time, you begin to take on a meditation practice, you know, and you begin to learn something about yourself because, you know, it's just, it's just a nonstop process. It's not like a... place that you arrive it's a continual practice of self-discovery a continual practice of being disciplined and like realizing because in that space when you begin to create that space for yourself uh and those impulses come up to check your phone during the day or to do this or do that or masturbate or or you know or maybe consume more um porn right if somebody is just starting their path you know to discovering themselves and just getting into that place of stillness Now you have a place that it's just like, wait, I can make a choice. you know what I mean? Instead of being like just going down that habitual path, it's like,
- Speaker #0
definitely. I can, we know impulse control and judgment is in the frontal lobe, like those areas of the brain that control executive function, impulse control, judgment. Those are the areas that are strengthened by meditation. And I think for people who are early in that journey, you learn how busy your mind is. Like when you, when you try to create stillness and then you've got I always think of it as the ticker tape up in your mind like the ticker tape's going a thousand miles a minute with, you know, a million thoughts, but then you, then you sit there and it slows down. And then after you establish the practice, you, you sit into meditation and there's no thoughts. It's the best feeling like no clue. And I, you know, I know both of these experiences. So once you know that feeling of like, just a peaceful, clear mind and you just want to stay there for a while and you want to get there every day. And the more you get there, the more you have it and the more you have access to it when you need it, when things start to get away from you, like invaluable for living the life that you want to one with calm, you know, clear peace.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. I mean, be yeah,
- Speaker #0
yourself like The need for mood regulation from external sources goes away. When you have all that, it just literally goes away. So like for people who are struggling with porn or other supernormal stimuli, social media, just devices, shows, long form, short form, whatever it might be, you know, the reason is the habit loop back to it to feel better, to take the edge off of stress or boredom or fatigue. But when you move through the world regulated, you don't have those things because the circadian rhythms are back online. Then there's just no need for the self-soothing or the self-stimulation. I mean,
- Speaker #1
you can really become a powerful individual and become one of those 1%. Yeah. One of the things that you advocate for with porn, and let's just talk about how we can, like, let go of porn, let go of some masturbation, is for porn, you say, like, you know, going cold turkey with a plan. So, you know, someone is listening and just, like, they're beginning to wake up that this is a problem for them. Like, where should they, what's their first step on the path to becoming more of that 1%?
- Speaker #0
is You need tools. Don't do it without tools. This is not the promo part for my book, but my book's a great resource because the reason I was so excited to get the book contract for that book was everything's in there that a person needs to plan for. So like, you know, you have to know what your triggers are. You have to have a pivot plan for that early on. I have people make a physical pivot plan toolkit to get them through those early days. knowing where the holes in your rewire are and the things that you need to put in place, even though it might be difficult. When people work with me, we do use advanced technology. And I think that's a game changer because now we're regulating your brain every day with tech in a really powerful way, which makes it so you can use new behaviors and you can challenge your old thought systems and start having new thoughts. The plan is making sure you have all the tools and the support that you need, recognizing this is a dopamine dependency. It's like a drug addiction. It's internalized. So, you know, a heroin addict would never go, I'm going to stop, you know, using heroin. I'm just going to do it. You know, but when we say port, it just seems like, oh, that just should be simple. But, and just to speak to something you said before about the neurological regulation at the... core of porn addiction. We know this. It's proven. It's basically, I call it the silent tsunami because. It happens deep in your brain at early exposure to porn and masturbation. And then that crack is getting larger and larger with, you know, continued exposure and use that neurological dysregulation. It's the problem, the dopamine dependency in the brain. So that's why dealing with that first and foremost helps you with the emotional regulation and self-regulation and relationships and setting up a schedule and all of those things.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's it's it's a what? You said you have a four month program, so it does definitely takes time and imagine takes a lot of commitment to do this and a lot of help. I mean, it's I guess is it something that's got to be pretty challenging because it's so deeply ingrained in the brain. I'd imagine that it's got to be really challenging on your own.
- Speaker #0
It is. And if you know, I just want people to know if you have tried to quit and you have not succeeded, it's not because it can't be done. It's just because you. don't have the right tools. And there's something about your formula you haven't figured out. Because I work with people who, they become hopeless that they'll never get out from underneath it. And they have ED, which means they can't be with a partner, which means they go back to porn, downward spiraling it over and over. When you have the comprehensive program, so in my program too, there is a large digital masterclass that I've put together of all the pieces of this thing. And so you learn about all the pieces and it's like a puzzle. So the pieces are different for each individual, but all the pieces are there. And so some of, a lot of the pieces will be easy for you to put into place, but then there might be one, two, three, or four of them that are difficult for you, which would be difficult, not the same as somebody else. When you put all the pieces to the puzzle in, you move forward quickly. That's just how it goes. So you have to figure out, okay, what are your puzzle pieces? Which ones are the tricky ones for you? And start snapping these babies in place. The more you get in place, the easier it becomes. And I have one client, he's like, when am I going to have withdrawal symptoms? This is a while ago. And I'm like, you would have already. You're well out of the woods. Like you started snapping puzzle pieces in really quickly. You never had them. And one simple, I know like that's all theoretical. and You know, you need a comprehensive plan. That's absolutely true. But one thing that your, you know, your listeners can take away is that you do have to do a pleasure pathway reset in your brain and in your life. So the way that I advocate that people do this is, first of all, recognize your brain is hijacked. It needs some work. It needs some work. But secondarily, you know, if you're going to leave the digital dopamine, dopamine stacking in your real life is really important. Many men go on a dopamine detox and you do need to detox the digital dopamine. But remember, that's at 400 percent. So you need to try to get as much dopamine from your life. Do the hobbies that you love, like your life depends on it. Call friends, get date nights going with your partner. You know, if you can't have healthy sexuality because of SAD or ED, at least have intimacy and connection. you know like
- Speaker #1
get it going as much as possible in your real life yeah i mean it's like that's well that's where it is right i mean you keep coming back to that it's like it's get out of the attachment to digital right and get into you know a normal like that reset's got to be really hard what's what is it is there uh what
- Speaker #0
do it was what does just withdrawal look like on from porn yeah withdrawal can be really really ugly for people it's it's like it definitely parallels drug addiction withdrawal, increased in anxiety. insomnia, you can't focus, urges and cravings, increase in pain. Porn actually releases opioids within the brain and the system. So there's pain reduction that comes along with it. So, you know, it can lead to significant mental and physical health issues. People feel physically sick and they feel like they can't do anything and all they need is a hit of dopamine. Unless, you know, you really get to work on. getting dopamine from your life. Another thing I encourage people to do, because I'm a realist, is that, you know, don't watch porn, but get a show that's motivational, that's slower, that you can start putting in your mind that you want to go back and watch it. Because if you go one degree off of porn or hypersexual content to healthier online content, a show, not... that like scrolling and seeking because that's a dopamine behavior that can be an easy way for people like in the evening you start you know watching a show that you like and now You're doing that instead of watching porn. You know, that's part of the comprehensive plan.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, that makes a lot of sense because you're not is not that quick fix like every ten, every 15 seconds. So, you know, when you're watching an episodic show, it's like it's it has like a big beginning, middle and end is slowly begins to build. It requires patience. You know, I mean, requires right presence and listening, you know, instead of just like, what's next, what's next, what's next?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And if you're uncomfortable with it, recognize that's part of it. But You know, usually people get to the other side of that within a few days or a week, you know, and that's the unwiring. That's why I break it up into unwire, rewire, and hardwire. The unwiring part can be tricky. That's the idea with the pivot plan toolkit. You know, the pivot plan is if you have an urge or a craving, you have to pivot and change your mental and physical space. The more you do that, the better off you are, and the more dopamine you can get from the thing you go do. So if you love basketball, you have an urge to go play basketball, you know,
- Speaker #1
and if you have healthy athletes, healthy athletes, I'd imagine. Right. Yeah, exactly. And identify those, you know, it's like it doesn't have to be basketball or pottery. Like you mentioned earlier, it could be something else. But go do those things and rewire your brain.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And that's why that's why in the end, people end up with the lifestyle they've always wanted because they've established their hobbies. Like one client I worked with. The one with the hockey, you know, when's the last time you played hockey? 10 years ago. He started playing hockey on Wednesday nights. He organized a men's league, started playing on Wednesdays. He's like, it is a game changer. Then he organized it on Saturday. So two times a week, he gets out with guys, plays hockey that he loves. Then they go eat and hang out. Like now he's got the lifestyle that he wanted. Instead of being chained to his computer or his phone, he's out with friends having fun. Same thing with his relationship with his kids. He started doubling down on like creating what he wanted from all of these things in his life.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, it's very encouraging and it's all possible. It's just, you got to take that first step. You have to have the willingness and you have to keep showing up.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And that's the thriving piece. Like when you're caught in a porn addiction or a screen, and I don't even love the word addiction because that doesn't resonate for most people. That's why compulsion is a powerful word because people do feel compelled to go back. Like if you're caught up in that, you're caught in survival mode. That's what it is. Like we know that when you escape into the screen, the escaping is a freeze response. So you have a fight or flight response and then a freeze. That's survival mode. It's the opposite of thriving. I want every person out there to get into thrive mode and not be in survival mode. Thrive mode is you're living your best life. You're a top 1% person. It doesn't have to look like anybody else's life, but. you're happy and you feel calm and peaceful.
- Speaker #1
Just a couple more questions. And thank you so much for all this. This has been just a wonderful discussion. But I wanted to get back, like, to maladaptive, like, chronic masturbation patterns in young. This is for fathers out there. Like, so we have a lot of fathers that listen. And so they have a, you know, a son that's, you know, 12, 13, 14, becoming of age, getting that testosterone rush, and, like, all of a sudden becoming interested in themselves in a new way. you know, how do they avoid this, like, this slippery slope of masturbation turning into something that's chronic versus something that, you know, could be, it's natural. I mean, it is natural to masturbate, right? I mean, it's like, you know, I mean.
- Speaker #0
I would contend it seems natural, but maybe it's not so natural. And I'll tell you why.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Let me just say, I mean, I just remember like, God, I was like. it was like when I hit 14, I could not get off my penis. Sometimes it was just like, it was just, right. I was, it was exciting. It was fun. It felt good. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Having sexual urges at the time when sexuality becomes a thing in your body, like that is normal or healthy, right? Like that is real. But what you do with that is that's the, the next step. So first to answer, okay, what do dads do when this is happening? This is going to be the most terrifying thing that I tell you. Are you ready for it? I'm ready. Communication.
- Speaker #1
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. My dad.
- Speaker #0
Talking about this stuff. Like, you know, I, my parents couldn't talk about anything. So a gift of this whole part of my work has been, I'm constantly talking about this stuff with my kids now and not telling them what to do, but just presenting like some of these, these thoughts. My husband still gives me the look when I say masturbation in front of all the kids, but I'm like, it's, it's normalized to talk about it. Nobody freaks out anymore where that would have been different years ago. But the idea is like, okay, sexuality is a thing. And this has changed my parenting a lot. because now I want my kids to have healthy sexuality with a partner. I think if my work didn't pivot into porn, I probably would have been more like my parents, like steering my kids away from wanting to build healthy intimacy that leads towards healthy sexuality. You know what I mean? So, but the idea with masturbation is it is mostly used for mood regulation, not sexual explore exploration. That's it generally is. You figure it out. It feels good. It becomes the way for you to feel good. That's the danger with it. It doesn't become about sexuality at all. It becomes your escape to feel good. So back to the like, isn't it normal? It is normal because this is what's happening for most people. But I try to teach my kids, when you feel mad, be mad. When you feel sad, be sad. When we have a problem, we talk about it. None of us are going to die. conflict doesn't kill anybody. It can be healthy if it's handled in a healthy way. So teaching your child to approach and engage instead of escape, that's the strategy. Teaching them how to build healthy sexuality towards being with a partner eventually someday and that you're not going to die if you don't have that happen in the next four weeks when you're 14. You know, like it's delayed gratification, not this instant gratification of feeling good without having to work for the intimacy piece.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that works against this as men is like, we had Dr. Carol Hooven on the show. She wrote the book of tea, you know, or tea, the story of tea, testosterone. And it's like, it's like, you know, dopamine is obviously one thing, but testosterone is another. And as a man, it's like, I mean, it is, it was really comforting. I got to say, to hear Dr. Hoeven. um all the research that she put into this book and she talks about um uh women that are transitioning to men in one little piece of the book you know they get high levels of testosterone when they start to really go down this transition process and this uh um this this like soon to be or they speak this transgender man she was like oh my god like i cannot believe like with all this testosterone in my bloodstream i was like i can't believe how many boobs I was looking at, how many butts I was looking at. And because it's like, there's like, there is a testosterone influence here for men. I mean, it's like, and sometimes it's just like, and even as you get older, like I'm 52 now and it's still like, it's still very real, you know? I mean, I live in New York and there's so many beautiful women here. And it's like, oh my, I'm not like I'm masturbating in the bathrooms in the subway, you know, you know, just to, you know, but it's like, what, what, what about that? I mean, cause it definitely, I mean, I mean, you're a woman, obviously I'm a man, like you don't, you have like one tenth of the level of testosterone than we do.
- Speaker #0
And also our- It's about paneling it and harnessing it, right?
- Speaker #1
There you go.
- Speaker #0
Like that's what we're talking about. That's what regulation is. My son just got new Crocs and with the letters on it and they currently read, I heart boobs forever.
- Speaker #1
There you go. 21. 21. There you go. Right.
- Speaker #0
Right. So, like, you know, there's no... shame in that. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me right now. But like, you know, it is about, and he, he works out like a fiend, you know, not to an unhealthy level, not gym is life kind of thing. Well, he said the other day, he's like, mom, I enjoy my life. And then I go to the gym. So like, you know, there's these healthy channels for increases in testosterone. And again, we've had lots of conversations about it. And obviously I don't take myself too seriously about it either, because, you know, you can have funny Crocs and no big deal, but. you know, it's about building intimacy. He had a girlfriend and then now he they broke up, but he's always putting himself in a position where he can meet new people to find a new partner, like super cool, you know, just a lid on, you know, it's not the differences about healthy sexuality and hypersexuality. So hypersexuality is you're walking down the street in New York, and you can't not look at everybody. And most of the people I talk with, they're in that place. Like they, they, when they look at someone, they can't stop looking. That's a dopamine dependency. That's not testosterone driven. Testosterone is, you know, yes, there's, there's beautiful people around you and, you know, there's a mating instinct, you know, but there also is a pair bonding instinct to go back to, you know, you want your pair bonding instinct to trump your mating instinct. And, you know, the research on the mating instinct is the I'm sure you've probably heard of it, the research study with rats where they would copulate with a partner, but then when a new partner came in, they would have sex with that. new rat because novelty was the driver, not the pair bonding. So again, it goes back to like, what's your goal in life? You know, if, if you want to find true intimacy, a pair bonded relationship, which humans do usually build a tribe and all of that, you have to channel that testosterone in that, in that direction. And it requires regulation. That regulation makes you a top 1% person,
- Speaker #1
you know? Right. Right, right, right.
- Speaker #0
And then all the things you do are leading you towards your goal or away. That's the truth of it. So if you go on porn, it's leading you away. It is creating more hypersexuality, taking your testosterone and making it want to go in that direction. More lusting, more dopamine, you know, insatiable. So balancing healthy dopamine, like you go for dinner with your friends, food's dopamine producing, friends are dopamine producing, laughter is. Like that's how you get healthy dopamine fixes, which. allow you to be, to have more balanced hormones. It's when your hormones get out of balance that it becomes an issue. Healthy hormones can be channeled.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Get back to a healthy dopamine baseline is like a big part of the message that we're here to hear and get out in your life.
- Speaker #0
And, you know, just, and just to speak to partnerships for a minute too, is that, that can be a big problem because, you know, there is a testosterone piece, but you have to recognize if you're, you're. brain and your mind are in a hypersexual space or a healthy sexuality space from a man's perspective. Many women, those that aren't self-objectified, and especially older women, they are hyposexual. So now you might have a partnership where the man wants to have sex a lot more often than the woman does. And again, it goes back to communication and figuring it out. So there's no need for a secret sex life or trying to tap into, you know. the feel good aspect of it.
- Speaker #1
Well, Dr. Trish, this has been such a lovely conversation. Thank you for informing our audience. Where can people find you and get plugged into your work, please?
- Speaker #0
It's my pleasure to be here. I'm on a mission to help people and I can be found at drtrishlee.com and that's kind of a hub that has pathways to, you know, everything in my space that people might need. I have a YouTube channel. It has over, I think now 2000 videos helping people. on their porn addiction recovery journey. I work with partners. I have a website that you can also access from there, Sanity After Betrayal. Women, the betrayal tends to be self-betrayal because they know they're in a situation where their partner is, their betrayal trauma is real. So I work with partners. My goal there is to help people get strong, everybody, so that they can be in a relationship that serves them. So all paths lead, you know, from. drtrishley.com.
- Speaker #1
That's what we got. Thank you. This has been a wonderful conversation and everyone out there listening. Yeah, no, my God, my pleasure. And please, hey, leave a review, share this with your friends out there. This is such, it's really important work that Dr. Trish is doing and this could, you know, is only seems to be getting worse. And this is a way to heal, you know, yourself and start living the life that you want, like we were talking about and go out and get it. So thank you so much.
- Speaker #0
Let's go.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Awesome. Peace, everybody. Thank you for showing up. Yeah. Thank you.
- Speaker #0
Thank you for joining us today. We hope you walk away with some new tools and insights to guide you on your life journey. New episodes are being published every week, so please join us again for some meaningful discussion. For more information, please check out mentalkingmindfulness.com.
