The Courage to Be the Fool: Why Taking Risks Is the Best Way Forward (Mega MicroDose) | Men Talking Mindfulness: Mental, Physical, and Emotional Health for Leaders Under Pressure

Description

Resharing an episode from YouTube Channel Leadership Sound Bites with Host Michelle Smith. (Thank you for this opportunity, Michelle!!)

Here, we dive deep into the wisdom of Dostoevsky and discuss the trap of overthinking and the transformational power of direct experience. We explore why the world needs more compassionate “fools”—people who take risks, show up imperfectly, and lead with heart, not ego.

Feeling stuck? If you need help getting out of your rut, Will can help. Head to willnotfear.com to learn more about his coaching and how it can help you get off the hamster wheel and start making better decisions.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hey, here's another microdose. This one might want to think of a triple dose, a little bit longer than what we typically put out there as a microdose. But I had an opportunity in the last month or so to jump on a podcast and YouTube channel by Michelle Smith entitled Leadership Soundbites. And we took this 30 minutes to break down and go deep into a quote by Dostoevsky, which I really enjoy, from a book called Notes from Underground. And,
Speaker #1
you know, this is going to help you to,
Speaker #0
by listening, maybe you're trapped in overthinking and can understand the transformational power of direct experience. In this conversation, we explore, you know, why the world needs more compassionate fools, if you will. People who take risks show up imperfectly and lead with heart and not ego. So enjoy, everybody. And leave a comment down below. Let us know what you think. Thanks for checking this out and being part of our community. Have a great day.
Speaker #1
Like don't pursue perfection. It is like to be perfect, to sound perfect, to look perfect. Like it's a false pursuit and it's always going to let you down because the goalpost is always moving. I think excellence, like how can I, through this experience, discover and refine through more excellence? and And I think that's definitely the way forward. That's like the fool's way forward. And I'd rather be in the game, but I'll use my intelligence.
Speaker #2
So welcome. So this week's episode of Latest Soundbites, my special guest, who I freaking met on a LinkedIn live with April and a couple other people. And I just had to reach out. So people are like, okay, who's Will? Because Will's name is right there. um will schneider ambassador of compassion from stanford university and it's so funny when you were telling me this and i'll just share with people out myself i'm like he can't be saying stanford because that's west coast and will is the last thing was a resident of new york co-host which i freaking love too is men talking is it mindfulness podcast men talking about this um and i I... I'm so excited about that. And here's why is because I think there's a lot of guys that go into this tough guy thing that I, that I'm not going to connect into, you know, feelers, if you will. Um, and it's important to start breaking that crap down so that they, that you guys are okay with it. I know women are more, you know, into that and it's okay. Um, so I got super excited about that when you were, um, when April did a LinkedIn live. So welcome to Conversation, sir. And I know you have a quote to kick us off with.
Speaker #1
Okay. Well, I appreciate this opportunity. Always great to teach and spread the word. And it's really been an honor to be here, but also like to serve within the podcast. Like it's really been great. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And all right, so we're going to go into a quote that I've used before, like speaking gigs. It's really had a profound impact on my life when I first read it. And it's from Dostoevsky from Notes from Underground. And he says, and this is a character in the book, it's called The Underground Man. And The Underground Man is this, this is his, towards the end of his life, he has this realization. And he realizes, I cannot become anything, neither good nor bad, neither a scoundrel, nor an honest man, neither a hero, nor an insect. And now I'm eking out my days in my corner. taunting myself with the bitter and entirely useless consolation that an intelligent man cannot seriously become anything that only a fool can become something i was like whoa right what is that what's this intellectual man versus the fool you know what am i kind of missing here and
Speaker #2
um you know you want to ask questions you want me to just dive right in speak a little i want i want to yeah i was waiting i didn't want to interrupt because the brain goes 50 zoning directions when you say that
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #2
What does it mean to you? And I think that's part of my question to start out with, because I do have thoughts.
Speaker #1
I'm glad you do. That's good, Michelle. You have thinking, but sometimes that thinking, but really what the underground man is doing and he realizes like he, it's like analysis paralysis, right? Always overthinking. And therefore he's like questioning himself and kind of like lives in this like internal chaotic state in his mind. So, like, he talks, I think it's really interesting, he lives in this fence of nor, you know, couldn't be good nor bad. I mean, it's just like, yeah, it couldn't be, you know, a hero nor an insect. He couldn't even imagine himself as an insect because, like... He might seem foolish or something like that. You know, so he's always like waffling. Should I do this? Should I do that? And like living, you know, in the would'ves and should'ves and could'ves instead of taking action, having direct experience and learning. And actually, how do we gain knowledge? The only way we actually gain knowledge is through direct experience, right? And the experience doesn't matter. Failure. Yeah, through failure. Through failure. Yeah, through failure, right? And triumph. You know, you can definitely triumph and be successful and learn from that. We learn a hell of a lot more from failure. Yeah. Of course we do. Of course. I mean, but it's not even failure. It's feedback. It's like, you know, that F word.
Speaker #2
Yes.
Speaker #1
Right. And I like that F word. I mean, I like the other F word. You know, that is not. But, you know, but feedback is just it's what we need. Like, if you really want to explore your potential, you need to take a risk. You need to put yourself out there. You know. and what really helps us lead, you know, where does risk take place, right? Where does courage come from? From the heart, right? So it's not from the mind. And we get like so trapped in the mind for so many different reasons. But when we begin to like let go, it's like, hey, that's just thinking like that and understand like the message from the underground man here, like the intelligent man cannot seriously become anything. that only a fool can become something. But what's the fool do? You know, the fool is the one that like takes up the cause. The fool is the one that is willing to like take the risk and try something. The fool is the one that is like looking for results, right? Actually, like real results instead of just hypothesizing or theorizing or thinking all the time.
Speaker #2
Well, and I think that so it's interesting because the thing that came to mind when you were talking is that we all... we have humans tend to have a fear of failure and it gets reinforced or elevated or made to be more important because of society around us and then this you know what if someone sees it what if someone what is someone going to think um and the thing is is it's important i strongly believe it's important to break out of that mold and be able to just say the stuff It's like when we bounced off when we first started here, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to share with people how my brain went through and got I couldn't be it couldn't be Stanford. It's got to be something else because you're from, you know, the East Coast and Stanford's on the West Coast. I think that stuff's important, which is why, like with this podcast, I tell people I'll trim the front end of it where, you know, we may be making noise before it starts and the back end of it because I can't find the stop recording button. Right. That's good enough. But we don't do the middle because I think it's important to realize that we're humans in the human experience and we have stumbles, missteps, faux pas, whatever it may be. And we pick ourselves up and we learn from it. And that's OK.
Speaker #1
Well, it should be the norm. Yes. It's not even about being OK. It should be the norm. It's the only way that we grow as human beings is through direct experience, is through trying, is through, you know, I mean, it's not even failure. just like you trying and trying and doing and doing. And what happens when you, you know, you keep showing up for a particular thing, you keep putting yourself out there. You know, you keep like just trying, like, I mean, my first few years of podcasts, I go back and I cringe. But like, if I if I never started, I would never be five years down the road with having like a top one and a half percent global podcast, because like, I've taken those steps, and just trying and trying. And then what What do I do? I refine, I refine. I get better. I go back and I listen. I still cringe sometimes. But I'm just like refining, refining, refining. And it's just like anything that you want to do, anything you want to be great at requires direct experience, but like honest self-reflection, but not beating yourself up. That's why the compassion part is key to direct experience. Instead of saying, oh, I sounded so stupid and it being about the external validation, it's being about everybody else. And if you're trying to live up to everyone else's expectations, like the goalpost is always moving. So you're never going to be able to see.
Speaker #2
You don't even know, half the time you don't even know those expectations in all honesty. Yeah. Okay. We make stuff up, you know, and a lot of times when you look at it, people relate more to real because they can see themselves in that real. Yeah. We might aspire to be the curated reality, whatever, but that's reality.
Speaker #1
Right. No. Yeah. I mean, it's like that, like what you said is very important too. It's like the authentic experience, like being truly yourself, right? This is a heart-led life. I think there's a big difference, distinction between like the mind-led and I think it's the mind is always transactional, give and take, you know, it's always like, you know, deciphering, you know, defining, you know, just kind of separating things, which is important. I mean, the mind and the heart is part of the human experience, but if we're still locked that are always locked in our mind, then we're never going to get on the inside. And, and insert like for that internal valid, internal validation, like the implicit experience of things. And that's the only way we grow, the only way we learn. And from that in that intrinsic or implicit experience, right. In order to get there, there's a certain amount of like, fuck it, like, I'm just going to try it, which, which calls forth our authenticity, right, which is the highest ranking energy that you can possibly experience from another person. so just like so you have this like This frequency that goes out when you're just like, fuck it, I don't care. I'm just doing this. I'm just waiting. I'm here talking to you in this way because I've learned that the more that I just listen to the internal compass. And we have a goal here. We want to help people unlock. We want to help people free themselves and live a more holistic and loving life. And what happens when they do that? They feel better. People around them feel better. The results are better. The creativity goes up. right their relationships begin to change right they start to become you know they begin to grow as a person their company grows their family grows the opportunities come forth and it's all from you know being authentic forgetting about like what the crowd like and what everybody thinking and saying like i would be locked up i mean i'd still i wouldn't have left scranton i mean i wouldn't have like if i was so worried about what everyone felt and i see a lot of my family a lot of my friends back home they're still living with that like oh what would they think what happens if I, if this, if I, if I did that or said this, and it's just like, well, who cares?
Speaker #2
Well, the thing, and the other part too, is that people know is that no matter what you do, you're not going to appeal to everyone.
Speaker #1
Why even try?
Speaker #2
You might as well appeal to yourself. Exactly. And then your people will find you.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, again, that, that energy of authenticity, it's like what your vibe attracts your, your, your tribe. Right. Like, so you putting that vibe out there and all of a sudden it's like, oh, wow. One thing I've seen, like from like authenticity point of view and from this like, you know, foolish perspective, if you will, is like I remember I teach I taught I taught a lot of yoga here in the city pre pandemic. Like the industry decimated because of the pandemic. But it is what it is, you know, but I learned by showing up like. eight, 10 times a week teaching class. Like I'm teaching in front of like, and New York is no small place. I have like 20, 30, 50, 60 people in my class. Wow. Right. So it's like, so, and it's not like I'm performing and performance is like, I hope they like me. Like, oh my God, did that sound right? Like, what does my outfit look like? No, no, no. I just show up. It's like, I'm here to serve. I'm here to help them, you know, understand this particular aspect of the practice, whether it's the breathing or meditating or their body in some way. And using all the tools I have available to me from my direct experiences leading up to that point to help them have a genuine experience with whatever I'm particularly teaching.
Speaker #2
Here's my question for you, because you're freaking absolutely right. And my brain goes to that's you in front of the class. That is leadership, leaders who are like that leading authentically. And I get people all the time that go, you know, I get in front of a room and I'm nervous or people. I said shift the focus this is not about you this is about the people in the room and when you shift the focus like you did so my my hypothesis is or my gut is is you were not nervous in front of 20 40 50 whatever however many people in that room because you were there for them right right and when we're in service to someone else that way in that in that capacity there are no nerves i've been You know, room of 150 people doing leadership development, senior leaders in an organization. I'm not nervous because it's not about me.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Attach to something more meaningful.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yes. Yeah. I see that with a lot of young yoga teachers that come through. They're like, oh, I don't want to sound like this or I'm afraid about this. I'm like, well, who's that about? That's about you. It's like serve. I mean, the nerves are still there sometimes. You know what I mean? Because it's just like, okay. Here we go. But it's like I use them to just empower me and move forward. Or even here's another moment, right? You step up, anyone's listening, worried about being, you know, stepping in front of like giving a PowerPoint. It's like sometimes I'll even mention. It's like, oh, got to say I'm a little nervous because I'm really excited to present this to you all. And all of a sudden, you know, one thing I've learned through the ambassador training, one key point of self-compassion and compassion is common humanity. and the idea of common humanity is like we're all doing the best we can we're all flawed human beings we all have our own experiences right so why not like understand it just like this is the human experience and like double triple quadruple and make that like a value Right. To live in the authenticity because you begin to unlock everyone else around you when you come with that level of authenticity and that level of like foolishness, if you will.
Speaker #2
Well, it's interesting you say that, right, because it's like if you've been in the room with people and, you know, that are nervous. Are you surprised when they say I'm nervous? No.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #2
Because you see it already. So it's like... Just say it so that it's out there. It's no longer the elephant in the room. And then people are going to go, oh, my. And then odds are the response is, you're going to be fine. You're going to be fine. It's going to be okay. But, I mean, it's not like you're telling them something they don't already see. It's like people when they get their 360 back or their leaders that are, you know, uncomfortable being vulnerable about stuff. Hey, I'm working on XYZ. What do people think? They're going to think that you're actually self-aware because they've seen it. forever you know right i just that kind of stuff is like don't let that get in the way because your energy's showing up that way anyway just call it out yeah yeah and it and it takes practice and awareness like because if you're you
Speaker #1
know we're having this conversation like kind of higher level because we've unlocked enough that we realize the value of just really showing up being honest being authentic trying not giving a shit right where a lot of people like I'm God, that would mortify me. Like I want to crawl in a hole like the, like the underground man, you know, where it's like, okay, well, I mean, so it might be difficult to like step up in front of like a large group or, uh, you know, uh, but what if you make it smaller in some ways, like put yourself out there in other ways. Like, you know, when I, you know, prepare for like a big talk, it's like, I'll have a little small audience, you know, at my apartment, I'll just have a few friends over the head. I need to run this through. I need to kind of get it out of my body. I need to get it out of my mouth. you know, and through my lips and I just really needed a little bit of an audience here and just run throughs, whatever it is, you know, just really helped me just to gain more confidence, ground myself into the reality of my humanity and just, and just, and just do the best I can. And when people are seeing that I'm doing the best I can, even though it might not be, you know, as beautiful as someone else might speak it or a speaker, but I'm trying. And again, that common humanity, people experience that. It's like, well, at least that's an authentic human being. And now I can be more authentic and just being here, maybe more relaxed instead of agitated or nervous.
Speaker #2
Yeah. It's interesting to say that because one of the things, too, that's helpful because what you talked about is I'm going to get it out of here. And or whatever, you know, place that I've kept this, people do PowerPoint slides or maybe you're doing flip chart paper or maybe you're just talking in front of people. We need to get to the point where even if you just walked around, I tell people, I said, as you're getting ready in the morning, as you're cooking dinner, as you're cleaning, say it, whatever it is, talk, just say it. You know, read it at first a few times and then drop the paper and just go say it to where literally it's natural. It's just coming out natural because a lot of it is, I think people get wound up because we're so programmed from school. You know, we've got to memorize this report. We've got to get up in front of the room and we've got, you know, it's like, okay, you don't have to memorize anything, but there's key points that you're going to want to hit. Speak it out loud. Get comfortable with it.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Part of the, that you, I thought earlier and you brought it up again. I'm glad you did. It's like part of the reason the intelligent man becomes such a part of our experience, man and woman, you know, when I, when I say man, I mean, everybody, you know, um, is because we're rewarded for our intelligence at a very young age. Like you think about like, oh, they're so smart, you know, or like they're so this, you know, and just like, you know, I got, and even think of the way our, sadly, our educational system design, it's all like, I mean, it's changing because things are radically changing now, but it's all about memorization or just like, you know, it's all intellectual exercises instead of like, of just trying different things. You know, and like and letting that be being evaluated on our attempt, where it's like if, you know, oh, you're a bad student because, you know, you didn't get a grade. And then you begin to feel, you know, experience yourself in a different way. And that's maybe that's why you begin to, you know, get a little bit smaller and you begin to diminish and eat yourself, you know, in the taunting yourself in your corner. Whereas like and then the opposite is true to the people that are really smart and get A's. They go out there and always looking for that for that. Oh, you're so smart. Oh, that's genius. You know, so they're always, again, and now they screw themselves because now looking for an external validation. So everything is all about like, am I not smart? Isn't that smart? Look how I look. You know, am I not smart? You know, even dress smart and try to sound smart. Whereas I put themselves in situations with smart people. And it's always just that they never get down to where it really matters. It's here in the heart.
Speaker #2
It's all here. It's interesting you say that because it's about you're chasing that next thing. And Sean Aker talks about happiness advantage. When you do that, and it's about external rewards, your brain never gets to the cognitive horizon. It never gets there because it keeps moving the goalpost. And the same thing happens. People that I coach, it's like when you were talking, faces of people I coach in situations that... high achievers and are never satisfied they're never so i'm like can you just look for a minute and see how far you've come i mean could your 18 year old self do what you're doing right now well no and i'm like celebrate that yeah celebrate that but it's like it's never enough and when we're never enough you're like a hamster on the wheel and it's like so i'm gonna run after it's gonna feel good in this next promotion the next thing or not right It's like, just celebrate how far you've come. I mean, I'm able here to sit with you like you were talking about when you first started the podcast. And four years ago, this would not have been the case. I would not have reached out and said, hey, well, do you want to get in real record and we'll talk about that? It wouldn't have happened.
Speaker #1
Right. Yeah.
Speaker #2
So it's that kind of evolution that we need to celebrate it and say, you know what? I can do what I do now because of what I went through and what I learned. And well done me.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for talking about the high achievers, because that's a trap that I get locked into. What's next? What's next? What's next? What's next? But what I'm learning is like, take a step back and like celebrate my wins for the month, for the week. You know what I mean? Even if they're small wins, like, you know, I got to the gym a bunch of times or, you know, I made these phone calls or I completed this and it's like, and it's like, but that's like, what's going to help bring us forward, you know, like from a more complete point of view. instead of being like, oh, I'm failing because I haven't accomplished this yet. And it's not, you know, and like, you can't be always chasing tomorrow. Yeah. Like, you know, everything is in the here and now, you know, and it's just like the more that you could use this moment, right, to, to, if you don't have your passion or purpose, go out and find that because that's going to be your compass going forward. But if you're on passion and purpose, right, then. you can use this moment to move you forward like very tactically like i'm i move forward tactically as i can i have like a mastermind i'm a part of you know it's just like what am i doing today what am i doing this week what am i doing this month what's my 90 day looking like and then and and it's and that's it's great to be in communion with other people to do that but um but if you're also this is part of the problem too that i that would comes up a lot in the podcast is people are not living on passion and on purpose So they're always, so the only thing that they really have to chase, right, is the external, which is the raise, the bonus, the promotion, right? Which is all about, hey, look at me. Didn't I do a great job on that presentation? Like, look at me. I'm staying here for 15 hours. I'm really just moving papers around, but I'm just trying to seem like I'm busy and I'm doing something because I love the company, right? And it's all transactional, right? Whereas like when you're on purpose, right, and you're doing things and where does purpose rest? It's in your heart. Passion, it's in your heart, right? and you're the expression is completely different. And the work is very different too, because it's easier sometimes to go to work and just check a bunch of boxes. And I check my boxes with my entrepreneurial life because it's of passion and purpose. But there's a different metric, if you will, like living on passion and purpose instead of just punching the clock. You know, I'm sorry. I don't mean to diminish like, you know, people that are like nine to five at all. But like, you know, there's a lot of like people that are part of problems. A lot of problems we have in society right now are because people are just trying to get a paycheck instead of trying to live on purpose.
Speaker #2
Big difference. And you can do both.
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker #2
So it's like one of those things, and I think the important thing is, is... People may go in and I'm just going to make stuff up right now because that's what I do sometimes. But I fully call myself out for it, right?
Speaker #1
Be authentic.
Speaker #2
Yeah, I'm just going to make it up. But it's one of those things is like maybe you're working a job that's not your ultimate career job. Maybe you don't love what you're doing. Maybe it is to put food on the table. Yeah. But the thing is, when we ask ourselves, what in this that I'm doing that I actually enjoy doing? What aspect of it is so that you can connect to something else? Because otherwise, to your point earlier, we're going to look at all the crap as to why this is the worst place to spend X number of hours a day or a week. Right. But if I go in and go, you know what? Yeah, it's not my dream job, but hey, I'm getting a paycheck. I'm putting food on the table. And I actually like a lot of the people I work with. So I get to hang out with people, even though it's not my dream job. I get to hang out with people that I kind of like hanging out with. That's great. Find that stuff. Because otherwise we're always going, well, it's not that and it's not that. No, it's not. But what is it?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right. God, I'm sorry.
Speaker #2
We can connect. Yeah, we can connect to that stuff. Yeah. You know, and. you know maybe my purpose is to my purpose in life is to help people that's my purpose and it just came out when someone asked me and i know that's big but but the beauty of it is it can play out in a number of ways and what happens in that space is i'm not i'm not narrating like well they're taking advantage of me they're whatever no i can always connect back to am am i helping is this helpful to you because if it is i'm in it
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #2
I'm there.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #2
We can all do that. Whatever your purpose is, connect to that and figure out what you're doing in front of you. Maybe it's not the ultimate whatever, which, oh, by the way, there really isn't. But maybe it's not the ultimate. But there's aspects of it that as long as we look, we will find something that connects to what I'm going to say fills my cup.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Well, one part of that feeling and you bring up a really good point there. It's like connecting to other human beings. Right. Like instead of just connecting to, you know, something, you know, I mean, the external more of like, oh, I just want more money. And it's just like, you know, they've shown it's like, you know, at a certain level of income, you know, happiness, you know, I think it's like seventy two thousand dollars, probably a little more now because of inflation. But like it's like probably about eighty, eighty two thousand dollars, eighty, eighty two thousand dollars to eight million dollars. Right. The level of happiness is marginally increases marginally. It doesn't even like, I mean, it doesn't matter like the money so much. It's like how you're filling your time, you know, with with what you have. And if you're out there connecting authentically with more people, like within your team, within your company, and really trying to help them and like staying on mission, staying on vision, you're going to be filled up from the inside. because like you're there's a certain you know almost a need like that other people have because you're part of a team and it's just like it's Anytime you can connect to your own humanity as well as humanity of other people, right, that's when you're I mean my experience is and things I'm learning continually through the show, like you're really going to have a greater impact instead of just being I keep coming back to the transactional because we're getting so I feel so distorted by the transactional. What can I get? How much money can I make? That is just it's just I think it's a false metric very much so.
Speaker #2
It is a measurement. It is,
Speaker #1
yes.
Speaker #2
If that is the only one that's at play right now, yeah, you're right. It's a hollow existence. I mean, it's like if you're chasing it, and the reality of it is, like we talked about before, it's like, well, I'm nervous. Well, that's not news to anyone that was in the room with you, right? They saw it before you did. And it's the same thing with people that are chasing the dollar. Right. The people around them, if that's truly your core focus, they know that you're going to show up in the room that way. You're going to engage with people that way. It's all about you. People know that. And part of the coaching I've done with some of the people that have aspirations to rapidly move up the food chain is part of that. I said, why? Why are you in the room? Well, I've got to prove myself. And I've got to do you. Do you really? Because if you got invited into the room. you're, you've already earned the right to be in the room. So now what do you need to learn? Because you're in the room with the people that you can learn from. But if you go in focused on the fact that, well, I've got to look good or I've got to prove that I should be here. How are you going to show up? How are you showing up?
Speaker #1
Right. How do you present yourself?
Speaker #2
Exactly. Right. So it's so, it's a totally different shift. It's like, you know, if you're in the room, you've earned there, there's a reason you're there. Just chill on that.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Now figure out. What can I learn? Right.
Speaker #1
How can I help?
Speaker #2
You are not here to impress people. You're here to absorb what they have to teach you. Be the sponge.
Speaker #0
Right. And a lot of times I find it's totally reversed. So I've got to demonstrate what I know. Do you? Because you've done something, which is why you got invited to that table in the first place.
Speaker #1
Yeah. That's another great distinction with this too. It's like being a know-it-all. You know what I mean? It's just like, and we, people like that, like, you know, it's just like, I feel bad for them because it's all about like, oh, look how intelligent I am. Look how intelligent I sound. Like it's, you know, but our, and they also kind of hold their nose. They're not even listening. You know what I mean? Which is like, oh, God, you talk about an easy way of like of expressing compassion or just adding value to another person just by simply listening to them. But a know-it-all is always like they hold their nose up. You know, it's like, oh, I know everything. This is stupid. Like blah, blah, blah. And that's literally this is that this is the guy in Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground. That's the underground man. Whereas like, you know, being alert at all, right. And just trying to absorb everything in your moment, but realizing, well. the only way I'm going to learn is through direct experience. I need to take some sort of action, regardless of how nervous I am or whatever. I'm not, it's just like, but on the other side of this experience, you know, we're, I'm going to learn something. We're all going to learn something. And, and I just happen to be the guinea pig right now that needs to put himself out there in order to create this experience for people.
Speaker #0
Yeah, no,
Speaker #1
I totally agree.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I'm sitting here bobbleheading and grinning and thank you. um for this time well thank you for this time it's it's pretty cool topic and uh i want to if you don't mind the door open for some future thing to get back together because i i enjoy the exploration uh of topics that impact people that we all support so question for you what what are one or two things that you would love people to walk away with um
Speaker #1
that uh the fall is the way you know, and fool takes the risk, takes up the cause. He's the one that like, you know, puts himself forward, you know, disregard and disregarding, you know, the external validation of what people are going to think. And I think just keep trying, try, try, try, try, try. And I think another thing that gets people locked up is like, don't pursue perfection. It is like to be perfect, to sound perfect, to look perfect. Like it's a false pursuit and it's always going to let you down because the goalpost is always moving. I think excellence, like how can I, through this experience, discover and refine through more excellence? And I think that's definitely the way forward. That's like the fool's way forward. And I'd rather be the fool than the intelligent man. But I'll use my intelligence to be more foolish and maybe take more calculated foolishness, you know. Uh, but But I just got to go out and, you know, here's what they give it. Just say, fuck it, jump in and go do it. And then report back to Michelle and I and let us know how it went.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's so funny. A couple things come to mind is the hashtag that I use all the time to get me through, to get me to doing things that I'm uncomfortable doing and haven't done before is face your fears and do it anyway. And so while you were talking, it's like it's a face your fears and do it anyway moment. So if you do come across, you know, all the stuff that you just said, well, but if you do come up against that barrier, that wall, that resistance, check yourself. Face my fears. Woo. This is this is this is kind of scary. OK, great. Acknowledge it and then go forward. And I'm not talking about being on the edge of a cliff or jumping out of a perfectly good airplane. If for some reason you don't want to do it and someone talked to you into that stuff, that's not what I'm talking about. But it's about stepping into stuff that you're uncomfortable because on the other side of it is where you want to be, where the learning, the growing, all this stuff is. But yeah, I just,
Speaker #1
yeah, just go for it. Yeah. Joseph Campbell says, and with this, it's like he goes, where you struggle is where your treasure lies. Those moments of fear, like those are your best teachers. Those are going to be your most transformative experiences in your life. those are going to be things you're going to remember when When you really just dance with that fear, with that anxiety, with that stress. Because there's a great education within feeling that energy, being with it, and working with it, and moving through it and with it. And then see what the results are. I think that results orientation is a very critical part of this conversation. Like, work for results. And then call someone like Michelle and be like, I want to talk about the results. Let's sift through them. Because you can find all these like there's gems and jewels in those experiences. But it takes sometimes like a coach like yourself to take a step back and like, hey, let's learn from this experience we had. And if you're not taking yourself experiences, you're always going to take yourself back and eking yourself in your corner, taunting yourself with the bitter and entirely useless consolation that intelligent man cannot seriously become anything. Mic drop.
Speaker #0
There's your mic drop moment. I love that.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Michelle. This has been a blast.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's been a blast. So this is Leadership Soundbites. Please like, share, subscribe. Until next time, from Will and Michelle, have a freaking awesome day. Thank you.
Speaker #1
Hey, welcome to a little double, maybe even a triple microdose,
Speaker #2
if you will. Recently, I, hey, this is Will Schneider.
Speaker #1
I did an episode on this podcast,
Speaker #2
this YouTube channel called Leadership Soundbites with Michelle Smith. And we dove deep into a quote by Dostoevsky in mining out the information. about what it really takes to be the fool and why the fool and being falling and being more of the fool, what that all means. We'll kind of get you out of the overthinking and give you more of a transformational power of direct experience.

Chapters

Chapter 1
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Description

Resharing an episode from YouTube Channel Leadership Sound Bites with Host Michelle Smith. (Thank you for this opportunity, Michelle!!)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hey, here's another microdose. This one might want to think of a triple dose, a little bit longer than what we typically put out there as a microdose. But I had an opportunity in the last month or so to jump on a podcast and YouTube channel by Michelle Smith entitled Leadership Soundbites. And we took this 30 minutes to break down and go deep into a quote by Dostoevsky, which I really enjoy, from a book called Notes from Underground. And,
Speaker #1
you know, this is going to help you to,
Speaker #0
by listening, maybe you're trapped in overthinking and can understand the transformational power of direct experience. In this conversation, we explore, you know, why the world needs more compassionate fools, if you will. People who take risks show up imperfectly and lead with heart and not ego. So enjoy, everybody. And leave a comment down below. Let us know what you think. Thanks for checking this out and being part of our community. Have a great day.
Speaker #1
Like don't pursue perfection. It is like to be perfect, to sound perfect, to look perfect. Like it's a false pursuit and it's always going to let you down because the goalpost is always moving. I think excellence, like how can I, through this experience, discover and refine through more excellence? and And I think that's definitely the way forward. That's like the fool's way forward. And I'd rather be in the game, but I'll use my intelligence.
Speaker #2
So welcome. So this week's episode of Latest Soundbites, my special guest, who I freaking met on a LinkedIn live with April and a couple other people. And I just had to reach out. So people are like, okay, who's Will? Because Will's name is right there. um will schneider ambassador of compassion from stanford university and it's so funny when you were telling me this and i'll just share with people out myself i'm like he can't be saying stanford because that's west coast and will is the last thing was a resident of new york co-host which i freaking love too is men talking is it mindfulness podcast men talking about this um and i I... I'm so excited about that. And here's why is because I think there's a lot of guys that go into this tough guy thing that I, that I'm not going to connect into, you know, feelers, if you will. Um, and it's important to start breaking that crap down so that they, that you guys are okay with it. I know women are more, you know, into that and it's okay. Um, so I got super excited about that when you were, um, when April did a LinkedIn live. So welcome to Conversation, sir. And I know you have a quote to kick us off with.
Speaker #1
Okay. Well, I appreciate this opportunity. Always great to teach and spread the word. And it's really been an honor to be here, but also like to serve within the podcast. Like it's really been great. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And all right, so we're going to go into a quote that I've used before, like speaking gigs. It's really had a profound impact on my life when I first read it. And it's from Dostoevsky from Notes from Underground. And he says, and this is a character in the book, it's called The Underground Man. And The Underground Man is this, this is his, towards the end of his life, he has this realization. And he realizes, I cannot become anything, neither good nor bad, neither a scoundrel, nor an honest man, neither a hero, nor an insect. And now I'm eking out my days in my corner. taunting myself with the bitter and entirely useless consolation that an intelligent man cannot seriously become anything that only a fool can become something i was like whoa right what is that what's this intellectual man versus the fool you know what am i kind of missing here and
Speaker #2
um you know you want to ask questions you want me to just dive right in speak a little i want i want to yeah i was waiting i didn't want to interrupt because the brain goes 50 zoning directions when you say that
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #2
What does it mean to you? And I think that's part of my question to start out with, because I do have thoughts.
Speaker #1
I'm glad you do. That's good, Michelle. You have thinking, but sometimes that thinking, but really what the underground man is doing and he realizes like he, it's like analysis paralysis, right? Always overthinking. And therefore he's like questioning himself and kind of like lives in this like internal chaotic state in his mind. So, like, he talks, I think it's really interesting, he lives in this fence of nor, you know, couldn't be good nor bad. I mean, it's just like, yeah, it couldn't be, you know, a hero nor an insect. He couldn't even imagine himself as an insect because, like... He might seem foolish or something like that. You know, so he's always like waffling. Should I do this? Should I do that? And like living, you know, in the would'ves and should'ves and could'ves instead of taking action, having direct experience and learning. And actually, how do we gain knowledge? The only way we actually gain knowledge is through direct experience, right? And the experience doesn't matter. Failure. Yeah, through failure. Through failure. Yeah, through failure, right? And triumph. You know, you can definitely triumph and be successful and learn from that. We learn a hell of a lot more from failure. Yeah. Of course we do. Of course. I mean, but it's not even failure. It's feedback. It's like, you know, that F word.
Speaker #2
Yes.
Speaker #1
Right. And I like that F word. I mean, I like the other F word. You know, that is not. But, you know, but feedback is just it's what we need. Like, if you really want to explore your potential, you need to take a risk. You need to put yourself out there. You know. and what really helps us lead, you know, where does risk take place, right? Where does courage come from? From the heart, right? So it's not from the mind. And we get like so trapped in the mind for so many different reasons. But when we begin to like let go, it's like, hey, that's just thinking like that and understand like the message from the underground man here, like the intelligent man cannot seriously become anything. that only a fool can become something. But what's the fool do? You know, the fool is the one that like takes up the cause. The fool is the one that is willing to like take the risk and try something. The fool is the one that is like looking for results, right? Actually, like real results instead of just hypothesizing or theorizing or thinking all the time.
Speaker #2
Well, and I think that so it's interesting because the thing that came to mind when you were talking is that we all... we have humans tend to have a fear of failure and it gets reinforced or elevated or made to be more important because of society around us and then this you know what if someone sees it what if someone what is someone going to think um and the thing is is it's important i strongly believe it's important to break out of that mold and be able to just say the stuff It's like when we bounced off when we first started here, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to share with people how my brain went through and got I couldn't be it couldn't be Stanford. It's got to be something else because you're from, you know, the East Coast and Stanford's on the West Coast. I think that stuff's important, which is why, like with this podcast, I tell people I'll trim the front end of it where, you know, we may be making noise before it starts and the back end of it because I can't find the stop recording button. Right. That's good enough. But we don't do the middle because I think it's important to realize that we're humans in the human experience and we have stumbles, missteps, faux pas, whatever it may be. And we pick ourselves up and we learn from it. And that's OK.
Speaker #1
Well, it should be the norm. Yes. It's not even about being OK. It should be the norm. It's the only way that we grow as human beings is through direct experience, is through trying, is through, you know, I mean, it's not even failure. just like you trying and trying and doing and doing. And what happens when you, you know, you keep showing up for a particular thing, you keep putting yourself out there. You know, you keep like just trying, like, I mean, my first few years of podcasts, I go back and I cringe. But like, if I if I never started, I would never be five years down the road with having like a top one and a half percent global podcast, because like, I've taken those steps, and just trying and trying. And then what What do I do? I refine, I refine. I get better. I go back and I listen. I still cringe sometimes. But I'm just like refining, refining, refining. And it's just like anything that you want to do, anything you want to be great at requires direct experience, but like honest self-reflection, but not beating yourself up. That's why the compassion part is key to direct experience. Instead of saying, oh, I sounded so stupid and it being about the external validation, it's being about everybody else. And if you're trying to live up to everyone else's expectations, like the goalpost is always moving. So you're never going to be able to see.
Speaker #2
You don't even know, half the time you don't even know those expectations in all honesty. Yeah. Okay. We make stuff up, you know, and a lot of times when you look at it, people relate more to real because they can see themselves in that real. Yeah. We might aspire to be the curated reality, whatever, but that's reality.
Speaker #1
Right. No. Yeah. I mean, it's like that, like what you said is very important too. It's like the authentic experience, like being truly yourself, right? This is a heart-led life. I think there's a big difference, distinction between like the mind-led and I think it's the mind is always transactional, give and take, you know, it's always like, you know, deciphering, you know, defining, you know, just kind of separating things, which is important. I mean, the mind and the heart is part of the human experience, but if we're still locked that are always locked in our mind, then we're never going to get on the inside. And, and insert like for that internal valid, internal validation, like the implicit experience of things. And that's the only way we grow, the only way we learn. And from that in that intrinsic or implicit experience, right. In order to get there, there's a certain amount of like, fuck it, like, I'm just going to try it, which, which calls forth our authenticity, right, which is the highest ranking energy that you can possibly experience from another person. so just like so you have this like This frequency that goes out when you're just like, fuck it, I don't care. I'm just doing this. I'm just waiting. I'm here talking to you in this way because I've learned that the more that I just listen to the internal compass. And we have a goal here. We want to help people unlock. We want to help people free themselves and live a more holistic and loving life. And what happens when they do that? They feel better. People around them feel better. The results are better. The creativity goes up. right their relationships begin to change right they start to become you know they begin to grow as a person their company grows their family grows the opportunities come forth and it's all from you know being authentic forgetting about like what the crowd like and what everybody thinking and saying like i would be locked up i mean i'd still i wouldn't have left scranton i mean i wouldn't have like if i was so worried about what everyone felt and i see a lot of my family a lot of my friends back home they're still living with that like oh what would they think what happens if I, if this, if I, if I did that or said this, and it's just like, well, who cares?
Speaker #2
Well, the thing, and the other part too, is that people know is that no matter what you do, you're not going to appeal to everyone.
Speaker #1
Why even try?
Speaker #2
You might as well appeal to yourself. Exactly. And then your people will find you.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, again, that, that energy of authenticity, it's like what your vibe attracts your, your, your tribe. Right. Like, so you putting that vibe out there and all of a sudden it's like, oh, wow. One thing I've seen, like from like authenticity point of view and from this like, you know, foolish perspective, if you will, is like I remember I teach I taught I taught a lot of yoga here in the city pre pandemic. Like the industry decimated because of the pandemic. But it is what it is, you know, but I learned by showing up like. eight, 10 times a week teaching class. Like I'm teaching in front of like, and New York is no small place. I have like 20, 30, 50, 60 people in my class. Wow. Right. So it's like, so, and it's not like I'm performing and performance is like, I hope they like me. Like, oh my God, did that sound right? Like, what does my outfit look like? No, no, no. I just show up. It's like, I'm here to serve. I'm here to help them, you know, understand this particular aspect of the practice, whether it's the breathing or meditating or their body in some way. And using all the tools I have available to me from my direct experiences leading up to that point to help them have a genuine experience with whatever I'm particularly teaching.
Speaker #2
Here's my question for you, because you're freaking absolutely right. And my brain goes to that's you in front of the class. That is leadership, leaders who are like that leading authentically. And I get people all the time that go, you know, I get in front of a room and I'm nervous or people. I said shift the focus this is not about you this is about the people in the room and when you shift the focus like you did so my my hypothesis is or my gut is is you were not nervous in front of 20 40 50 whatever however many people in that room because you were there for them right right and when we're in service to someone else that way in that in that capacity there are no nerves i've been You know, room of 150 people doing leadership development, senior leaders in an organization. I'm not nervous because it's not about me.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Attach to something more meaningful.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yes. Yeah. I see that with a lot of young yoga teachers that come through. They're like, oh, I don't want to sound like this or I'm afraid about this. I'm like, well, who's that about? That's about you. It's like serve. I mean, the nerves are still there sometimes. You know what I mean? Because it's just like, okay. Here we go. But it's like I use them to just empower me and move forward. Or even here's another moment, right? You step up, anyone's listening, worried about being, you know, stepping in front of like giving a PowerPoint. It's like sometimes I'll even mention. It's like, oh, got to say I'm a little nervous because I'm really excited to present this to you all. And all of a sudden, you know, one thing I've learned through the ambassador training, one key point of self-compassion and compassion is common humanity. and the idea of common humanity is like we're all doing the best we can we're all flawed human beings we all have our own experiences right so why not like understand it just like this is the human experience and like double triple quadruple and make that like a value Right. To live in the authenticity because you begin to unlock everyone else around you when you come with that level of authenticity and that level of like foolishness, if you will.
Speaker #2
Well, it's interesting you say that, right, because it's like if you've been in the room with people and, you know, that are nervous. Are you surprised when they say I'm nervous? No.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #2
Because you see it already. So it's like... Just say it so that it's out there. It's no longer the elephant in the room. And then people are going to go, oh, my. And then odds are the response is, you're going to be fine. You're going to be fine. It's going to be okay. But, I mean, it's not like you're telling them something they don't already see. It's like people when they get their 360 back or their leaders that are, you know, uncomfortable being vulnerable about stuff. Hey, I'm working on XYZ. What do people think? They're going to think that you're actually self-aware because they've seen it. forever you know right i just that kind of stuff is like don't let that get in the way because your energy's showing up that way anyway just call it out yeah yeah and it and it takes practice and awareness like because if you're you
Speaker #1
know we're having this conversation like kind of higher level because we've unlocked enough that we realize the value of just really showing up being honest being authentic trying not giving a shit right where a lot of people like I'm God, that would mortify me. Like I want to crawl in a hole like the, like the underground man, you know, where it's like, okay, well, I mean, so it might be difficult to like step up in front of like a large group or, uh, you know, uh, but what if you make it smaller in some ways, like put yourself out there in other ways. Like, you know, when I, you know, prepare for like a big talk, it's like, I'll have a little small audience, you know, at my apartment, I'll just have a few friends over the head. I need to run this through. I need to kind of get it out of my body. I need to get it out of my mouth. you know, and through my lips and I just really needed a little bit of an audience here and just run throughs, whatever it is, you know, just really helped me just to gain more confidence, ground myself into the reality of my humanity and just, and just, and just do the best I can. And when people are seeing that I'm doing the best I can, even though it might not be, you know, as beautiful as someone else might speak it or a speaker, but I'm trying. And again, that common humanity, people experience that. It's like, well, at least that's an authentic human being. And now I can be more authentic and just being here, maybe more relaxed instead of agitated or nervous.
Speaker #2
Yeah. It's interesting to say that because one of the things, too, that's helpful because what you talked about is I'm going to get it out of here. And or whatever, you know, place that I've kept this, people do PowerPoint slides or maybe you're doing flip chart paper or maybe you're just talking in front of people. We need to get to the point where even if you just walked around, I tell people, I said, as you're getting ready in the morning, as you're cooking dinner, as you're cleaning, say it, whatever it is, talk, just say it. You know, read it at first a few times and then drop the paper and just go say it to where literally it's natural. It's just coming out natural because a lot of it is, I think people get wound up because we're so programmed from school. You know, we've got to memorize this report. We've got to get up in front of the room and we've got, you know, it's like, okay, you don't have to memorize anything, but there's key points that you're going to want to hit. Speak it out loud. Get comfortable with it.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Part of the, that you, I thought earlier and you brought it up again. I'm glad you did. It's like part of the reason the intelligent man becomes such a part of our experience, man and woman, you know, when I, when I say man, I mean, everybody, you know, um, is because we're rewarded for our intelligence at a very young age. Like you think about like, oh, they're so smart, you know, or like they're so this, you know, and just like, you know, I got, and even think of the way our, sadly, our educational system design, it's all like, I mean, it's changing because things are radically changing now, but it's all about memorization or just like, you know, it's all intellectual exercises instead of like, of just trying different things. You know, and like and letting that be being evaluated on our attempt, where it's like if, you know, oh, you're a bad student because, you know, you didn't get a grade. And then you begin to feel, you know, experience yourself in a different way. And that's maybe that's why you begin to, you know, get a little bit smaller and you begin to diminish and eat yourself, you know, in the taunting yourself in your corner. Whereas like and then the opposite is true to the people that are really smart and get A's. They go out there and always looking for that for that. Oh, you're so smart. Oh, that's genius. You know, so they're always, again, and now they screw themselves because now looking for an external validation. So everything is all about like, am I not smart? Isn't that smart? Look how I look. You know, am I not smart? You know, even dress smart and try to sound smart. Whereas I put themselves in situations with smart people. And it's always just that they never get down to where it really matters. It's here in the heart.
Speaker #2
It's all here. It's interesting you say that because it's about you're chasing that next thing. And Sean Aker talks about happiness advantage. When you do that, and it's about external rewards, your brain never gets to the cognitive horizon. It never gets there because it keeps moving the goalpost. And the same thing happens. People that I coach, it's like when you were talking, faces of people I coach in situations that... high achievers and are never satisfied they're never so i'm like can you just look for a minute and see how far you've come i mean could your 18 year old self do what you're doing right now well no and i'm like celebrate that yeah celebrate that but it's like it's never enough and when we're never enough you're like a hamster on the wheel and it's like so i'm gonna run after it's gonna feel good in this next promotion the next thing or not right It's like, just celebrate how far you've come. I mean, I'm able here to sit with you like you were talking about when you first started the podcast. And four years ago, this would not have been the case. I would not have reached out and said, hey, well, do you want to get in real record and we'll talk about that? It wouldn't have happened.
Speaker #1
Right. Yeah.
Speaker #2
So it's that kind of evolution that we need to celebrate it and say, you know what? I can do what I do now because of what I went through and what I learned. And well done me.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for talking about the high achievers, because that's a trap that I get locked into. What's next? What's next? What's next? What's next? But what I'm learning is like, take a step back and like celebrate my wins for the month, for the week. You know what I mean? Even if they're small wins, like, you know, I got to the gym a bunch of times or, you know, I made these phone calls or I completed this and it's like, and it's like, but that's like, what's going to help bring us forward, you know, like from a more complete point of view. instead of being like, oh, I'm failing because I haven't accomplished this yet. And it's not, you know, and like, you can't be always chasing tomorrow. Yeah. Like, you know, everything is in the here and now, you know, and it's just like the more that you could use this moment, right, to, to, if you don't have your passion or purpose, go out and find that because that's going to be your compass going forward. But if you're on passion and purpose, right, then. you can use this moment to move you forward like very tactically like i'm i move forward tactically as i can i have like a mastermind i'm a part of you know it's just like what am i doing today what am i doing this week what am i doing this month what's my 90 day looking like and then and and it's and that's it's great to be in communion with other people to do that but um but if you're also this is part of the problem too that i that would comes up a lot in the podcast is people are not living on passion and on purpose So they're always, so the only thing that they really have to chase, right, is the external, which is the raise, the bonus, the promotion, right? Which is all about, hey, look at me. Didn't I do a great job on that presentation? Like, look at me. I'm staying here for 15 hours. I'm really just moving papers around, but I'm just trying to seem like I'm busy and I'm doing something because I love the company, right? And it's all transactional, right? Whereas like when you're on purpose, right, and you're doing things and where does purpose rest? It's in your heart. Passion, it's in your heart, right? and you're the expression is completely different. And the work is very different too, because it's easier sometimes to go to work and just check a bunch of boxes. And I check my boxes with my entrepreneurial life because it's of passion and purpose. But there's a different metric, if you will, like living on passion and purpose instead of just punching the clock. You know, I'm sorry. I don't mean to diminish like, you know, people that are like nine to five at all. But like, you know, there's a lot of like people that are part of problems. A lot of problems we have in society right now are because people are just trying to get a paycheck instead of trying to live on purpose.
Speaker #2
Big difference. And you can do both.
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker #2
So it's like one of those things, and I think the important thing is, is... People may go in and I'm just going to make stuff up right now because that's what I do sometimes. But I fully call myself out for it, right?
Speaker #1
Be authentic.
Speaker #2
Yeah, I'm just going to make it up. But it's one of those things is like maybe you're working a job that's not your ultimate career job. Maybe you don't love what you're doing. Maybe it is to put food on the table. Yeah. But the thing is, when we ask ourselves, what in this that I'm doing that I actually enjoy doing? What aspect of it is so that you can connect to something else? Because otherwise, to your point earlier, we're going to look at all the crap as to why this is the worst place to spend X number of hours a day or a week. Right. But if I go in and go, you know what? Yeah, it's not my dream job, but hey, I'm getting a paycheck. I'm putting food on the table. And I actually like a lot of the people I work with. So I get to hang out with people, even though it's not my dream job. I get to hang out with people that I kind of like hanging out with. That's great. Find that stuff. Because otherwise we're always going, well, it's not that and it's not that. No, it's not. But what is it?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right. God, I'm sorry.
Speaker #2
We can connect. Yeah, we can connect to that stuff. Yeah. You know, and. you know maybe my purpose is to my purpose in life is to help people that's my purpose and it just came out when someone asked me and i know that's big but but the beauty of it is it can play out in a number of ways and what happens in that space is i'm not i'm not narrating like well they're taking advantage of me they're whatever no i can always connect back to am am i helping is this helpful to you because if it is i'm in it
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #2
I'm there.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #2
We can all do that. Whatever your purpose is, connect to that and figure out what you're doing in front of you. Maybe it's not the ultimate whatever, which, oh, by the way, there really isn't. But maybe it's not the ultimate. But there's aspects of it that as long as we look, we will find something that connects to what I'm going to say fills my cup.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Well, one part of that feeling and you bring up a really good point there. It's like connecting to other human beings. Right. Like instead of just connecting to, you know, something, you know, I mean, the external more of like, oh, I just want more money. And it's just like, you know, they've shown it's like, you know, at a certain level of income, you know, happiness, you know, I think it's like seventy two thousand dollars, probably a little more now because of inflation. But like it's like probably about eighty, eighty two thousand dollars, eighty, eighty two thousand dollars to eight million dollars. Right. The level of happiness is marginally increases marginally. It doesn't even like, I mean, it doesn't matter like the money so much. It's like how you're filling your time, you know, with with what you have. And if you're out there connecting authentically with more people, like within your team, within your company, and really trying to help them and like staying on mission, staying on vision, you're going to be filled up from the inside. because like you're there's a certain you know almost a need like that other people have because you're part of a team and it's just like it's Anytime you can connect to your own humanity as well as humanity of other people, right, that's when you're I mean my experience is and things I'm learning continually through the show, like you're really going to have a greater impact instead of just being I keep coming back to the transactional because we're getting so I feel so distorted by the transactional. What can I get? How much money can I make? That is just it's just I think it's a false metric very much so.
Speaker #2
It is a measurement. It is,
Speaker #1
yes.
Speaker #2
If that is the only one that's at play right now, yeah, you're right. It's a hollow existence. I mean, it's like if you're chasing it, and the reality of it is, like we talked about before, it's like, well, I'm nervous. Well, that's not news to anyone that was in the room with you, right? They saw it before you did. And it's the same thing with people that are chasing the dollar. Right. The people around them, if that's truly your core focus, they know that you're going to show up in the room that way. You're going to engage with people that way. It's all about you. People know that. And part of the coaching I've done with some of the people that have aspirations to rapidly move up the food chain is part of that. I said, why? Why are you in the room? Well, I've got to prove myself. And I've got to do you. Do you really? Because if you got invited into the room. you're, you've already earned the right to be in the room. So now what do you need to learn? Because you're in the room with the people that you can learn from. But if you go in focused on the fact that, well, I've got to look good or I've got to prove that I should be here. How are you going to show up? How are you showing up?
Speaker #1
Right. How do you present yourself?
Speaker #2
Exactly. Right. So it's so, it's a totally different shift. It's like, you know, if you're in the room, you've earned there, there's a reason you're there. Just chill on that.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Now figure out. What can I learn? Right.
Speaker #1
How can I help?
Speaker #2
You are not here to impress people. You're here to absorb what they have to teach you. Be the sponge.
Speaker #0
Right. And a lot of times I find it's totally reversed. So I've got to demonstrate what I know. Do you? Because you've done something, which is why you got invited to that table in the first place.
Speaker #1
Yeah. That's another great distinction with this too. It's like being a know-it-all. You know what I mean? It's just like, and we, people like that, like, you know, it's just like, I feel bad for them because it's all about like, oh, look how intelligent I am. Look how intelligent I sound. Like it's, you know, but our, and they also kind of hold their nose. They're not even listening. You know what I mean? Which is like, oh, God, you talk about an easy way of like of expressing compassion or just adding value to another person just by simply listening to them. But a know-it-all is always like they hold their nose up. You know, it's like, oh, I know everything. This is stupid. Like blah, blah, blah. And that's literally this is that this is the guy in Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground. That's the underground man. Whereas like, you know, being alert at all, right. And just trying to absorb everything in your moment, but realizing, well. the only way I'm going to learn is through direct experience. I need to take some sort of action, regardless of how nervous I am or whatever. I'm not, it's just like, but on the other side of this experience, you know, we're, I'm going to learn something. We're all going to learn something. And, and I just happen to be the guinea pig right now that needs to put himself out there in order to create this experience for people.
Speaker #0
Yeah, no,
Speaker #1
I totally agree.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I'm sitting here bobbleheading and grinning and thank you. um for this time well thank you for this time it's it's pretty cool topic and uh i want to if you don't mind the door open for some future thing to get back together because i i enjoy the exploration uh of topics that impact people that we all support so question for you what what are one or two things that you would love people to walk away with um
Speaker #1
that uh the fall is the way you know, and fool takes the risk, takes up the cause. He's the one that like, you know, puts himself forward, you know, disregard and disregarding, you know, the external validation of what people are going to think. And I think just keep trying, try, try, try, try, try. And I think another thing that gets people locked up is like, don't pursue perfection. It is like to be perfect, to sound perfect, to look perfect. Like it's a false pursuit and it's always going to let you down because the goalpost is always moving. I think excellence, like how can I, through this experience, discover and refine through more excellence? And I think that's definitely the way forward. That's like the fool's way forward. And I'd rather be the fool than the intelligent man. But I'll use my intelligence to be more foolish and maybe take more calculated foolishness, you know. Uh, but But I just got to go out and, you know, here's what they give it. Just say, fuck it, jump in and go do it. And then report back to Michelle and I and let us know how it went.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's so funny. A couple things come to mind is the hashtag that I use all the time to get me through, to get me to doing things that I'm uncomfortable doing and haven't done before is face your fears and do it anyway. And so while you were talking, it's like it's a face your fears and do it anyway moment. So if you do come across, you know, all the stuff that you just said, well, but if you do come up against that barrier, that wall, that resistance, check yourself. Face my fears. Woo. This is this is this is kind of scary. OK, great. Acknowledge it and then go forward. And I'm not talking about being on the edge of a cliff or jumping out of a perfectly good airplane. If for some reason you don't want to do it and someone talked to you into that stuff, that's not what I'm talking about. But it's about stepping into stuff that you're uncomfortable because on the other side of it is where you want to be, where the learning, the growing, all this stuff is. But yeah, I just,
Speaker #1
yeah, just go for it. Yeah. Joseph Campbell says, and with this, it's like he goes, where you struggle is where your treasure lies. Those moments of fear, like those are your best teachers. Those are going to be your most transformative experiences in your life. those are going to be things you're going to remember when When you really just dance with that fear, with that anxiety, with that stress. Because there's a great education within feeling that energy, being with it, and working with it, and moving through it and with it. And then see what the results are. I think that results orientation is a very critical part of this conversation. Like, work for results. And then call someone like Michelle and be like, I want to talk about the results. Let's sift through them. Because you can find all these like there's gems and jewels in those experiences. But it takes sometimes like a coach like yourself to take a step back and like, hey, let's learn from this experience we had. And if you're not taking yourself experiences, you're always going to take yourself back and eking yourself in your corner, taunting yourself with the bitter and entirely useless consolation that intelligent man cannot seriously become anything. Mic drop.
Speaker #0
There's your mic drop moment. I love that.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Michelle. This has been a blast.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's been a blast. So this is Leadership Soundbites. Please like, share, subscribe. Until next time, from Will and Michelle, have a freaking awesome day. Thank you.
Speaker #1
Hey, welcome to a little double, maybe even a triple microdose,
Speaker #2
if you will. Recently, I, hey, this is Will Schneider.
Speaker #1
I did an episode on this podcast,
Speaker #2
this YouTube channel called Leadership Soundbites with Michelle Smith. And we dove deep into a quote by Dostoevsky in mining out the information. about what it really takes to be the fool and why the fool and being falling and being more of the fool, what that all means. We'll kind of get you out of the overthinking and give you more of a transformational power of direct experience.

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Resharing an episode from YouTube Channel Leadership Sound Bites with Host Michelle Smith. (Thank you for this opportunity, Michelle!!)

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hey, here's another microdose. This one might want to think of a triple dose, a little bit longer than what we typically put out there as a microdose. But I had an opportunity in the last month or so to jump on a podcast and YouTube channel by Michelle Smith entitled Leadership Soundbites. And we took this 30 minutes to break down and go deep into a quote by Dostoevsky, which I really enjoy, from a book called Notes from Underground. And,
Speaker #1
you know, this is going to help you to,
Speaker #0
by listening, maybe you're trapped in overthinking and can understand the transformational power of direct experience. In this conversation, we explore, you know, why the world needs more compassionate fools, if you will. People who take risks show up imperfectly and lead with heart and not ego. So enjoy, everybody. And leave a comment down below. Let us know what you think. Thanks for checking this out and being part of our community. Have a great day.
Speaker #1
Like don't pursue perfection. It is like to be perfect, to sound perfect, to look perfect. Like it's a false pursuit and it's always going to let you down because the goalpost is always moving. I think excellence, like how can I, through this experience, discover and refine through more excellence? and And I think that's definitely the way forward. That's like the fool's way forward. And I'd rather be in the game, but I'll use my intelligence.
Speaker #2
So welcome. So this week's episode of Latest Soundbites, my special guest, who I freaking met on a LinkedIn live with April and a couple other people. And I just had to reach out. So people are like, okay, who's Will? Because Will's name is right there. um will schneider ambassador of compassion from stanford university and it's so funny when you were telling me this and i'll just share with people out myself i'm like he can't be saying stanford because that's west coast and will is the last thing was a resident of new york co-host which i freaking love too is men talking is it mindfulness podcast men talking about this um and i I... I'm so excited about that. And here's why is because I think there's a lot of guys that go into this tough guy thing that I, that I'm not going to connect into, you know, feelers, if you will. Um, and it's important to start breaking that crap down so that they, that you guys are okay with it. I know women are more, you know, into that and it's okay. Um, so I got super excited about that when you were, um, when April did a LinkedIn live. So welcome to Conversation, sir. And I know you have a quote to kick us off with.
Speaker #1
Okay. Well, I appreciate this opportunity. Always great to teach and spread the word. And it's really been an honor to be here, but also like to serve within the podcast. Like it's really been great. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And all right, so we're going to go into a quote that I've used before, like speaking gigs. It's really had a profound impact on my life when I first read it. And it's from Dostoevsky from Notes from Underground. And he says, and this is a character in the book, it's called The Underground Man. And The Underground Man is this, this is his, towards the end of his life, he has this realization. And he realizes, I cannot become anything, neither good nor bad, neither a scoundrel, nor an honest man, neither a hero, nor an insect. And now I'm eking out my days in my corner. taunting myself with the bitter and entirely useless consolation that an intelligent man cannot seriously become anything that only a fool can become something i was like whoa right what is that what's this intellectual man versus the fool you know what am i kind of missing here and
Speaker #2
um you know you want to ask questions you want me to just dive right in speak a little i want i want to yeah i was waiting i didn't want to interrupt because the brain goes 50 zoning directions when you say that
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #2
What does it mean to you? And I think that's part of my question to start out with, because I do have thoughts.
Speaker #1
I'm glad you do. That's good, Michelle. You have thinking, but sometimes that thinking, but really what the underground man is doing and he realizes like he, it's like analysis paralysis, right? Always overthinking. And therefore he's like questioning himself and kind of like lives in this like internal chaotic state in his mind. So, like, he talks, I think it's really interesting, he lives in this fence of nor, you know, couldn't be good nor bad. I mean, it's just like, yeah, it couldn't be, you know, a hero nor an insect. He couldn't even imagine himself as an insect because, like... He might seem foolish or something like that. You know, so he's always like waffling. Should I do this? Should I do that? And like living, you know, in the would'ves and should'ves and could'ves instead of taking action, having direct experience and learning. And actually, how do we gain knowledge? The only way we actually gain knowledge is through direct experience, right? And the experience doesn't matter. Failure. Yeah, through failure. Through failure. Yeah, through failure, right? And triumph. You know, you can definitely triumph and be successful and learn from that. We learn a hell of a lot more from failure. Yeah. Of course we do. Of course. I mean, but it's not even failure. It's feedback. It's like, you know, that F word.
Speaker #2
Yes.
Speaker #1
Right. And I like that F word. I mean, I like the other F word. You know, that is not. But, you know, but feedback is just it's what we need. Like, if you really want to explore your potential, you need to take a risk. You need to put yourself out there. You know. and what really helps us lead, you know, where does risk take place, right? Where does courage come from? From the heart, right? So it's not from the mind. And we get like so trapped in the mind for so many different reasons. But when we begin to like let go, it's like, hey, that's just thinking like that and understand like the message from the underground man here, like the intelligent man cannot seriously become anything. that only a fool can become something. But what's the fool do? You know, the fool is the one that like takes up the cause. The fool is the one that is willing to like take the risk and try something. The fool is the one that is like looking for results, right? Actually, like real results instead of just hypothesizing or theorizing or thinking all the time.
Speaker #2
Well, and I think that so it's interesting because the thing that came to mind when you were talking is that we all... we have humans tend to have a fear of failure and it gets reinforced or elevated or made to be more important because of society around us and then this you know what if someone sees it what if someone what is someone going to think um and the thing is is it's important i strongly believe it's important to break out of that mold and be able to just say the stuff It's like when we bounced off when we first started here, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to share with people how my brain went through and got I couldn't be it couldn't be Stanford. It's got to be something else because you're from, you know, the East Coast and Stanford's on the West Coast. I think that stuff's important, which is why, like with this podcast, I tell people I'll trim the front end of it where, you know, we may be making noise before it starts and the back end of it because I can't find the stop recording button. Right. That's good enough. But we don't do the middle because I think it's important to realize that we're humans in the human experience and we have stumbles, missteps, faux pas, whatever it may be. And we pick ourselves up and we learn from it. And that's OK.
Speaker #1
Well, it should be the norm. Yes. It's not even about being OK. It should be the norm. It's the only way that we grow as human beings is through direct experience, is through trying, is through, you know, I mean, it's not even failure. just like you trying and trying and doing and doing. And what happens when you, you know, you keep showing up for a particular thing, you keep putting yourself out there. You know, you keep like just trying, like, I mean, my first few years of podcasts, I go back and I cringe. But like, if I if I never started, I would never be five years down the road with having like a top one and a half percent global podcast, because like, I've taken those steps, and just trying and trying. And then what What do I do? I refine, I refine. I get better. I go back and I listen. I still cringe sometimes. But I'm just like refining, refining, refining. And it's just like anything that you want to do, anything you want to be great at requires direct experience, but like honest self-reflection, but not beating yourself up. That's why the compassion part is key to direct experience. Instead of saying, oh, I sounded so stupid and it being about the external validation, it's being about everybody else. And if you're trying to live up to everyone else's expectations, like the goalpost is always moving. So you're never going to be able to see.
Speaker #2
You don't even know, half the time you don't even know those expectations in all honesty. Yeah. Okay. We make stuff up, you know, and a lot of times when you look at it, people relate more to real because they can see themselves in that real. Yeah. We might aspire to be the curated reality, whatever, but that's reality.
Speaker #1
Right. No. Yeah. I mean, it's like that, like what you said is very important too. It's like the authentic experience, like being truly yourself, right? This is a heart-led life. I think there's a big difference, distinction between like the mind-led and I think it's the mind is always transactional, give and take, you know, it's always like, you know, deciphering, you know, defining, you know, just kind of separating things, which is important. I mean, the mind and the heart is part of the human experience, but if we're still locked that are always locked in our mind, then we're never going to get on the inside. And, and insert like for that internal valid, internal validation, like the implicit experience of things. And that's the only way we grow, the only way we learn. And from that in that intrinsic or implicit experience, right. In order to get there, there's a certain amount of like, fuck it, like, I'm just going to try it, which, which calls forth our authenticity, right, which is the highest ranking energy that you can possibly experience from another person. so just like so you have this like This frequency that goes out when you're just like, fuck it, I don't care. I'm just doing this. I'm just waiting. I'm here talking to you in this way because I've learned that the more that I just listen to the internal compass. And we have a goal here. We want to help people unlock. We want to help people free themselves and live a more holistic and loving life. And what happens when they do that? They feel better. People around them feel better. The results are better. The creativity goes up. right their relationships begin to change right they start to become you know they begin to grow as a person their company grows their family grows the opportunities come forth and it's all from you know being authentic forgetting about like what the crowd like and what everybody thinking and saying like i would be locked up i mean i'd still i wouldn't have left scranton i mean i wouldn't have like if i was so worried about what everyone felt and i see a lot of my family a lot of my friends back home they're still living with that like oh what would they think what happens if I, if this, if I, if I did that or said this, and it's just like, well, who cares?
Speaker #2
Well, the thing, and the other part too, is that people know is that no matter what you do, you're not going to appeal to everyone.
Speaker #1
Why even try?
Speaker #2
You might as well appeal to yourself. Exactly. And then your people will find you.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, again, that, that energy of authenticity, it's like what your vibe attracts your, your, your tribe. Right. Like, so you putting that vibe out there and all of a sudden it's like, oh, wow. One thing I've seen, like from like authenticity point of view and from this like, you know, foolish perspective, if you will, is like I remember I teach I taught I taught a lot of yoga here in the city pre pandemic. Like the industry decimated because of the pandemic. But it is what it is, you know, but I learned by showing up like. eight, 10 times a week teaching class. Like I'm teaching in front of like, and New York is no small place. I have like 20, 30, 50, 60 people in my class. Wow. Right. So it's like, so, and it's not like I'm performing and performance is like, I hope they like me. Like, oh my God, did that sound right? Like, what does my outfit look like? No, no, no. I just show up. It's like, I'm here to serve. I'm here to help them, you know, understand this particular aspect of the practice, whether it's the breathing or meditating or their body in some way. And using all the tools I have available to me from my direct experiences leading up to that point to help them have a genuine experience with whatever I'm particularly teaching.
Speaker #2
Here's my question for you, because you're freaking absolutely right. And my brain goes to that's you in front of the class. That is leadership, leaders who are like that leading authentically. And I get people all the time that go, you know, I get in front of a room and I'm nervous or people. I said shift the focus this is not about you this is about the people in the room and when you shift the focus like you did so my my hypothesis is or my gut is is you were not nervous in front of 20 40 50 whatever however many people in that room because you were there for them right right and when we're in service to someone else that way in that in that capacity there are no nerves i've been You know, room of 150 people doing leadership development, senior leaders in an organization. I'm not nervous because it's not about me.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Attach to something more meaningful.
Speaker #2
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yes. Yeah. I see that with a lot of young yoga teachers that come through. They're like, oh, I don't want to sound like this or I'm afraid about this. I'm like, well, who's that about? That's about you. It's like serve. I mean, the nerves are still there sometimes. You know what I mean? Because it's just like, okay. Here we go. But it's like I use them to just empower me and move forward. Or even here's another moment, right? You step up, anyone's listening, worried about being, you know, stepping in front of like giving a PowerPoint. It's like sometimes I'll even mention. It's like, oh, got to say I'm a little nervous because I'm really excited to present this to you all. And all of a sudden, you know, one thing I've learned through the ambassador training, one key point of self-compassion and compassion is common humanity. and the idea of common humanity is like we're all doing the best we can we're all flawed human beings we all have our own experiences right so why not like understand it just like this is the human experience and like double triple quadruple and make that like a value Right. To live in the authenticity because you begin to unlock everyone else around you when you come with that level of authenticity and that level of like foolishness, if you will.
Speaker #2
Well, it's interesting you say that, right, because it's like if you've been in the room with people and, you know, that are nervous. Are you surprised when they say I'm nervous? No.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #2
Because you see it already. So it's like... Just say it so that it's out there. It's no longer the elephant in the room. And then people are going to go, oh, my. And then odds are the response is, you're going to be fine. You're going to be fine. It's going to be okay. But, I mean, it's not like you're telling them something they don't already see. It's like people when they get their 360 back or their leaders that are, you know, uncomfortable being vulnerable about stuff. Hey, I'm working on XYZ. What do people think? They're going to think that you're actually self-aware because they've seen it. forever you know right i just that kind of stuff is like don't let that get in the way because your energy's showing up that way anyway just call it out yeah yeah and it and it takes practice and awareness like because if you're you
Speaker #1
know we're having this conversation like kind of higher level because we've unlocked enough that we realize the value of just really showing up being honest being authentic trying not giving a shit right where a lot of people like I'm God, that would mortify me. Like I want to crawl in a hole like the, like the underground man, you know, where it's like, okay, well, I mean, so it might be difficult to like step up in front of like a large group or, uh, you know, uh, but what if you make it smaller in some ways, like put yourself out there in other ways. Like, you know, when I, you know, prepare for like a big talk, it's like, I'll have a little small audience, you know, at my apartment, I'll just have a few friends over the head. I need to run this through. I need to kind of get it out of my body. I need to get it out of my mouth. you know, and through my lips and I just really needed a little bit of an audience here and just run throughs, whatever it is, you know, just really helped me just to gain more confidence, ground myself into the reality of my humanity and just, and just, and just do the best I can. And when people are seeing that I'm doing the best I can, even though it might not be, you know, as beautiful as someone else might speak it or a speaker, but I'm trying. And again, that common humanity, people experience that. It's like, well, at least that's an authentic human being. And now I can be more authentic and just being here, maybe more relaxed instead of agitated or nervous.
Speaker #2
Yeah. It's interesting to say that because one of the things, too, that's helpful because what you talked about is I'm going to get it out of here. And or whatever, you know, place that I've kept this, people do PowerPoint slides or maybe you're doing flip chart paper or maybe you're just talking in front of people. We need to get to the point where even if you just walked around, I tell people, I said, as you're getting ready in the morning, as you're cooking dinner, as you're cleaning, say it, whatever it is, talk, just say it. You know, read it at first a few times and then drop the paper and just go say it to where literally it's natural. It's just coming out natural because a lot of it is, I think people get wound up because we're so programmed from school. You know, we've got to memorize this report. We've got to get up in front of the room and we've got, you know, it's like, okay, you don't have to memorize anything, but there's key points that you're going to want to hit. Speak it out loud. Get comfortable with it.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Part of the, that you, I thought earlier and you brought it up again. I'm glad you did. It's like part of the reason the intelligent man becomes such a part of our experience, man and woman, you know, when I, when I say man, I mean, everybody, you know, um, is because we're rewarded for our intelligence at a very young age. Like you think about like, oh, they're so smart, you know, or like they're so this, you know, and just like, you know, I got, and even think of the way our, sadly, our educational system design, it's all like, I mean, it's changing because things are radically changing now, but it's all about memorization or just like, you know, it's all intellectual exercises instead of like, of just trying different things. You know, and like and letting that be being evaluated on our attempt, where it's like if, you know, oh, you're a bad student because, you know, you didn't get a grade. And then you begin to feel, you know, experience yourself in a different way. And that's maybe that's why you begin to, you know, get a little bit smaller and you begin to diminish and eat yourself, you know, in the taunting yourself in your corner. Whereas like and then the opposite is true to the people that are really smart and get A's. They go out there and always looking for that for that. Oh, you're so smart. Oh, that's genius. You know, so they're always, again, and now they screw themselves because now looking for an external validation. So everything is all about like, am I not smart? Isn't that smart? Look how I look. You know, am I not smart? You know, even dress smart and try to sound smart. Whereas I put themselves in situations with smart people. And it's always just that they never get down to where it really matters. It's here in the heart.
Speaker #2
It's all here. It's interesting you say that because it's about you're chasing that next thing. And Sean Aker talks about happiness advantage. When you do that, and it's about external rewards, your brain never gets to the cognitive horizon. It never gets there because it keeps moving the goalpost. And the same thing happens. People that I coach, it's like when you were talking, faces of people I coach in situations that... high achievers and are never satisfied they're never so i'm like can you just look for a minute and see how far you've come i mean could your 18 year old self do what you're doing right now well no and i'm like celebrate that yeah celebrate that but it's like it's never enough and when we're never enough you're like a hamster on the wheel and it's like so i'm gonna run after it's gonna feel good in this next promotion the next thing or not right It's like, just celebrate how far you've come. I mean, I'm able here to sit with you like you were talking about when you first started the podcast. And four years ago, this would not have been the case. I would not have reached out and said, hey, well, do you want to get in real record and we'll talk about that? It wouldn't have happened.
Speaker #1
Right. Yeah.
Speaker #2
So it's that kind of evolution that we need to celebrate it and say, you know what? I can do what I do now because of what I went through and what I learned. And well done me.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for talking about the high achievers, because that's a trap that I get locked into. What's next? What's next? What's next? What's next? But what I'm learning is like, take a step back and like celebrate my wins for the month, for the week. You know what I mean? Even if they're small wins, like, you know, I got to the gym a bunch of times or, you know, I made these phone calls or I completed this and it's like, and it's like, but that's like, what's going to help bring us forward, you know, like from a more complete point of view. instead of being like, oh, I'm failing because I haven't accomplished this yet. And it's not, you know, and like, you can't be always chasing tomorrow. Yeah. Like, you know, everything is in the here and now, you know, and it's just like the more that you could use this moment, right, to, to, if you don't have your passion or purpose, go out and find that because that's going to be your compass going forward. But if you're on passion and purpose, right, then. you can use this moment to move you forward like very tactically like i'm i move forward tactically as i can i have like a mastermind i'm a part of you know it's just like what am i doing today what am i doing this week what am i doing this month what's my 90 day looking like and then and and it's and that's it's great to be in communion with other people to do that but um but if you're also this is part of the problem too that i that would comes up a lot in the podcast is people are not living on passion and on purpose So they're always, so the only thing that they really have to chase, right, is the external, which is the raise, the bonus, the promotion, right? Which is all about, hey, look at me. Didn't I do a great job on that presentation? Like, look at me. I'm staying here for 15 hours. I'm really just moving papers around, but I'm just trying to seem like I'm busy and I'm doing something because I love the company, right? And it's all transactional, right? Whereas like when you're on purpose, right, and you're doing things and where does purpose rest? It's in your heart. Passion, it's in your heart, right? and you're the expression is completely different. And the work is very different too, because it's easier sometimes to go to work and just check a bunch of boxes. And I check my boxes with my entrepreneurial life because it's of passion and purpose. But there's a different metric, if you will, like living on passion and purpose instead of just punching the clock. You know, I'm sorry. I don't mean to diminish like, you know, people that are like nine to five at all. But like, you know, there's a lot of like people that are part of problems. A lot of problems we have in society right now are because people are just trying to get a paycheck instead of trying to live on purpose.
Speaker #2
Big difference. And you can do both.
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker #2
So it's like one of those things, and I think the important thing is, is... People may go in and I'm just going to make stuff up right now because that's what I do sometimes. But I fully call myself out for it, right?
Speaker #1
Be authentic.
Speaker #2
Yeah, I'm just going to make it up. But it's one of those things is like maybe you're working a job that's not your ultimate career job. Maybe you don't love what you're doing. Maybe it is to put food on the table. Yeah. But the thing is, when we ask ourselves, what in this that I'm doing that I actually enjoy doing? What aspect of it is so that you can connect to something else? Because otherwise, to your point earlier, we're going to look at all the crap as to why this is the worst place to spend X number of hours a day or a week. Right. But if I go in and go, you know what? Yeah, it's not my dream job, but hey, I'm getting a paycheck. I'm putting food on the table. And I actually like a lot of the people I work with. So I get to hang out with people, even though it's not my dream job. I get to hang out with people that I kind of like hanging out with. That's great. Find that stuff. Because otherwise we're always going, well, it's not that and it's not that. No, it's not. But what is it?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right. God, I'm sorry.
Speaker #2
We can connect. Yeah, we can connect to that stuff. Yeah. You know, and. you know maybe my purpose is to my purpose in life is to help people that's my purpose and it just came out when someone asked me and i know that's big but but the beauty of it is it can play out in a number of ways and what happens in that space is i'm not i'm not narrating like well they're taking advantage of me they're whatever no i can always connect back to am am i helping is this helpful to you because if it is i'm in it
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #2
I'm there.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #2
We can all do that. Whatever your purpose is, connect to that and figure out what you're doing in front of you. Maybe it's not the ultimate whatever, which, oh, by the way, there really isn't. But maybe it's not the ultimate. But there's aspects of it that as long as we look, we will find something that connects to what I'm going to say fills my cup.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. Well, one part of that feeling and you bring up a really good point there. It's like connecting to other human beings. Right. Like instead of just connecting to, you know, something, you know, I mean, the external more of like, oh, I just want more money. And it's just like, you know, they've shown it's like, you know, at a certain level of income, you know, happiness, you know, I think it's like seventy two thousand dollars, probably a little more now because of inflation. But like it's like probably about eighty, eighty two thousand dollars, eighty, eighty two thousand dollars to eight million dollars. Right. The level of happiness is marginally increases marginally. It doesn't even like, I mean, it doesn't matter like the money so much. It's like how you're filling your time, you know, with with what you have. And if you're out there connecting authentically with more people, like within your team, within your company, and really trying to help them and like staying on mission, staying on vision, you're going to be filled up from the inside. because like you're there's a certain you know almost a need like that other people have because you're part of a team and it's just like it's Anytime you can connect to your own humanity as well as humanity of other people, right, that's when you're I mean my experience is and things I'm learning continually through the show, like you're really going to have a greater impact instead of just being I keep coming back to the transactional because we're getting so I feel so distorted by the transactional. What can I get? How much money can I make? That is just it's just I think it's a false metric very much so.
Speaker #2
It is a measurement. It is,
Speaker #1
yes.
Speaker #2
If that is the only one that's at play right now, yeah, you're right. It's a hollow existence. I mean, it's like if you're chasing it, and the reality of it is, like we talked about before, it's like, well, I'm nervous. Well, that's not news to anyone that was in the room with you, right? They saw it before you did. And it's the same thing with people that are chasing the dollar. Right. The people around them, if that's truly your core focus, they know that you're going to show up in the room that way. You're going to engage with people that way. It's all about you. People know that. And part of the coaching I've done with some of the people that have aspirations to rapidly move up the food chain is part of that. I said, why? Why are you in the room? Well, I've got to prove myself. And I've got to do you. Do you really? Because if you got invited into the room. you're, you've already earned the right to be in the room. So now what do you need to learn? Because you're in the room with the people that you can learn from. But if you go in focused on the fact that, well, I've got to look good or I've got to prove that I should be here. How are you going to show up? How are you showing up?
Speaker #1
Right. How do you present yourself?
Speaker #2
Exactly. Right. So it's so, it's a totally different shift. It's like, you know, if you're in the room, you've earned there, there's a reason you're there. Just chill on that.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #2
Now figure out. What can I learn? Right.
Speaker #1
How can I help?
Speaker #2
You are not here to impress people. You're here to absorb what they have to teach you. Be the sponge.
Speaker #0
Right. And a lot of times I find it's totally reversed. So I've got to demonstrate what I know. Do you? Because you've done something, which is why you got invited to that table in the first place.
Speaker #1
Yeah. That's another great distinction with this too. It's like being a know-it-all. You know what I mean? It's just like, and we, people like that, like, you know, it's just like, I feel bad for them because it's all about like, oh, look how intelligent I am. Look how intelligent I sound. Like it's, you know, but our, and they also kind of hold their nose. They're not even listening. You know what I mean? Which is like, oh, God, you talk about an easy way of like of expressing compassion or just adding value to another person just by simply listening to them. But a know-it-all is always like they hold their nose up. You know, it's like, oh, I know everything. This is stupid. Like blah, blah, blah. And that's literally this is that this is the guy in Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground. That's the underground man. Whereas like, you know, being alert at all, right. And just trying to absorb everything in your moment, but realizing, well. the only way I'm going to learn is through direct experience. I need to take some sort of action, regardless of how nervous I am or whatever. I'm not, it's just like, but on the other side of this experience, you know, we're, I'm going to learn something. We're all going to learn something. And, and I just happen to be the guinea pig right now that needs to put himself out there in order to create this experience for people.
Speaker #0
Yeah, no,
Speaker #1
I totally agree.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I'm sitting here bobbleheading and grinning and thank you. um for this time well thank you for this time it's it's pretty cool topic and uh i want to if you don't mind the door open for some future thing to get back together because i i enjoy the exploration uh of topics that impact people that we all support so question for you what what are one or two things that you would love people to walk away with um
Speaker #1
that uh the fall is the way you know, and fool takes the risk, takes up the cause. He's the one that like, you know, puts himself forward, you know, disregard and disregarding, you know, the external validation of what people are going to think. And I think just keep trying, try, try, try, try, try. And I think another thing that gets people locked up is like, don't pursue perfection. It is like to be perfect, to sound perfect, to look perfect. Like it's a false pursuit and it's always going to let you down because the goalpost is always moving. I think excellence, like how can I, through this experience, discover and refine through more excellence? And I think that's definitely the way forward. That's like the fool's way forward. And I'd rather be the fool than the intelligent man. But I'll use my intelligence to be more foolish and maybe take more calculated foolishness, you know. Uh, but But I just got to go out and, you know, here's what they give it. Just say, fuck it, jump in and go do it. And then report back to Michelle and I and let us know how it went.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's so funny. A couple things come to mind is the hashtag that I use all the time to get me through, to get me to doing things that I'm uncomfortable doing and haven't done before is face your fears and do it anyway. And so while you were talking, it's like it's a face your fears and do it anyway moment. So if you do come across, you know, all the stuff that you just said, well, but if you do come up against that barrier, that wall, that resistance, check yourself. Face my fears. Woo. This is this is this is kind of scary. OK, great. Acknowledge it and then go forward. And I'm not talking about being on the edge of a cliff or jumping out of a perfectly good airplane. If for some reason you don't want to do it and someone talked to you into that stuff, that's not what I'm talking about. But it's about stepping into stuff that you're uncomfortable because on the other side of it is where you want to be, where the learning, the growing, all this stuff is. But yeah, I just,
Speaker #1
yeah, just go for it. Yeah. Joseph Campbell says, and with this, it's like he goes, where you struggle is where your treasure lies. Those moments of fear, like those are your best teachers. Those are going to be your most transformative experiences in your life. those are going to be things you're going to remember when When you really just dance with that fear, with that anxiety, with that stress. Because there's a great education within feeling that energy, being with it, and working with it, and moving through it and with it. And then see what the results are. I think that results orientation is a very critical part of this conversation. Like, work for results. And then call someone like Michelle and be like, I want to talk about the results. Let's sift through them. Because you can find all these like there's gems and jewels in those experiences. But it takes sometimes like a coach like yourself to take a step back and like, hey, let's learn from this experience we had. And if you're not taking yourself experiences, you're always going to take yourself back and eking yourself in your corner, taunting yourself with the bitter and entirely useless consolation that intelligent man cannot seriously become anything. Mic drop.
Speaker #0
There's your mic drop moment. I love that.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Michelle. This has been a blast.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's been a blast. So this is Leadership Soundbites. Please like, share, subscribe. Until next time, from Will and Michelle, have a freaking awesome day. Thank you.
Speaker #1
Hey, welcome to a little double, maybe even a triple microdose,
Speaker #2
if you will. Recently, I, hey, this is Will Schneider.
Speaker #1
I did an episode on this podcast,
Speaker #2
this YouTube channel called Leadership Soundbites with Michelle Smith. And we dove deep into a quote by Dostoevsky in mining out the information. about what it really takes to be the fool and why the fool and being falling and being more of the fool, what that all means. We'll kind of get you out of the overthinking and give you more of a transformational power of direct experience.

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