Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Somebody came up to me after a talk I gave once and said, Dan, I feel really inspired. I said, don't worry, it'll pass.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Because inspiration comes and goes. Motivation waxes and wanes. Right, right, yeah. You have to depend on something deeper than waiting to feel inspired or motivated. Our lives have been shaped by what we've done over time. Despite all our dreams, we are what we do, moment to moment. That's what creates our life. Waiting for the right feeling, the right motivation, the right inspiration doesn't really happen. It's like, what needs doing right now and doing it? That's what takes that warrior spirit. You know, a young man came up to me after a talk I gave once and said, Dan, I understand you sometimes do personal one-on-one consultations with people, but it must cost a lot for your time. He said, what can you tell a poor college student for a dollar? And he handed me a dollar. and I told him six words that were a lifetime practice that could change his life. And those six words were here and now, breathe and relax.

• Speaker #1

  Raw, uncut and unapologetic. Welcome to Men Talking Mindfulness. First published in 1980, Way of the Peaceful Warrior, known as a multi-million copy word of mouth seller, has become a beloved spiritual classic thanks to its timeless message of mindfulness and inner growth. It's been translated into more than 27 languages and adapted into a major motion picture by Lionsgate in 2006. This book has cemented itself and its influence for generations to come. I first read Way of the Peaceful Warrior back in 2008 and helped change the course of my life. And here we are, 17 years later, I'm interviewing the author Dan Millman. Dan, it's an honor to meet you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

• Speaker #0

  Will, a pleasure to be here with you and John.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So good to have you. Yeah.

• Speaker #2

  We're very excited. And, and we'll, uh, thank you for that intro and I'll just jump in with some announcements, uh, real quick, short and sweet. We've got a Spartan race, October 19th in Dallas or close to Dallas. If you would like to join us, we'd love to have you join us on our team, head to men talking mindfulness.com to find out more about that. And now we're just going to jump into our grounding practice. Dan, we kick off every episode with the grounding practice is just one breath for the three of us and for our audience. so if you'd feel comfortable joining us we invite you to do so and for our audience go ahead and get comfortable whatever that looks like and let's begin with a nice exhale letting off that air and stress and anxiety out holding empty and then nice long slow deep breath in all the way up to the top of the lungs and an extra sip at the top hold And release, release, release. And as you release and let go of that stress, that anxiety, and here we are for the episode. Will, let's kick it off, my brother.

• Speaker #1

  Dan, Dan Millman. I can't believe you're on our podcast. I might be a little starstruck at times. But anyway, so let's just jump right in. So would you please define what do you mean by peaceful warrior?

• Speaker #0

  That's a very good place to start. And before I do that, let me just say, it's a pleasure to be here with you both, really. And speaking with a largely male audience, people on the build, you mentioned like 35, 50, around that range. Some people turning their midlife crises into midcourse corrections.

• Speaker #1

  There you go. I love that.

• Speaker #0

  And striving to live mindfully. So in that light, let me define the issue for those who don't know my work. There are true warriors out there, people who run towards danger, firefighters, police, military. And I don't mean to cheapen or dissipate that true literal sense of the word warrior. I want to acknowledge that first. And yet, well, look, let me just go back. about the inception of the term. I was teaching a martial arts course at Oberlin College when I was a young college professor. And it was two martial arts I'd studied of many, actually. But Aikido and Tai Chi. And the students were very receptive to these. So I was going to call it for the catalog, The Way of the Warrior, which makes sense. The way or the path of the warrior. But then in a light bulb moment, I said, you know, These are more receptive arts. They're not really aggressive arts. They use others' force and so on in getting out of the way, despite what you may have seen Steven Seagal in his movie. And then I said, why don't I call it the way of the peaceful warrior, kind of to modify the warrior, to give it a sense of balance. And I view... all of your listeners, both of you, myself, and everyone I know as peaceful warriors in training. And the reason I say that is because we're all striving to live with a peaceful heart amidst the chaos and changes of everyday life and all the challenges it involves. I view daily life as a form of spiritual weight training. You don't lift any weights, you don't get any stronger. Great point. So yes, we are striving for a peaceful heart, a sense of equanimity, serenity throughout our lives. However, there are moments in our lives we've all encountered where we need a warrior's spirit. And that spirit doesn't necessarily mean fighting, except struggling with those inner demons of insecurity, fear, self-doubt, and so on. Sometimes we have to deal with the darkness before we see the light. Yeah. So that's what I mean by peaceful warrior. And that's why I say we're all peaceful warriors in training. It's not a... club you can join. It's not some special thing or you need a special initiation. Our lives have been our initiation. Sometimes I ask audiences, please raise your hand if you've experienced physical, emotional, or mental pain in your life. All the hands go up.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly.

• Speaker #0

  And I say, you know, it's fine to disagree with something I say, because if we agree on everything, only one of us is necessary. But I hope we can agree on this. Wouldn't you say that that pain, that difficulty, that challenge, that adversity. left you a little bit wiser, maybe a little bit stronger, a more of a sense of perspective. So every adversity has hidden gifts. And I like to remind people of that. Most people are coming today to appreciate the value of training. And in fact, many of us volunteer for it. You know, I ask people, how many of you have done a fitness, approaching fitness or exercises or learned a martial art or playing a musical instrument? All those are forms of voluntary adversity. Life is easier if we don't do that. Don't take on those challenges. How many of you, I would say, have maintained a relationship with someone for more than, let's say, two weeks? Voluntary adversity. My wife, Joy, and I are going to be celebrating this year our 50th wedding anniversary. Wow, that's exhalation. We have disagreements. yeah last very long. But it's not easy carrying on a relationship. And how many of you had children? Boy, voluntary adversity.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, very true.

• Speaker #0

  Insanity is hereditary. We get it from our kids. So all these things are forms of business, the world of business and striving and making money and making income and all forms of voluntary adversity. And that's what daily life is for, to strengthen our spirits. So that gives you a flavor. I know it's a long answer, but it gives you a flavor for what I mean by peaceful warrior in everyday life.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #2

  I got to jump in with one thing. It's funny. And when I do my speaking, I actually ask the reverse. I ask, raise your hand if you haven't faced adversity, if you haven't faced challenges, if you haven't had to overcome some obstacles to get to this very point right here today. and Every once in a while, I'll get somebody who misunderstands the question and they'll raise their hand. But for the most part, nobody raises their hand. And I say, exactly. Everybody here has overcome an obstacle to get here. And I always tell them, look back at your past. Look back over your shoulder at these mountains that you've climbed in the past. And those mountains that you've summited are going to empower future climbs. And you can kind of see this light bulb go off. Some of them are in challenges and obstacles and adversity right now. And if you can kind of see them like, oh, you know what? I'm tougher than I'm giving myself credit for. I like that New York mug. I think that's a New York mug. I've got the same exact mug in my kitchen.

• Speaker #0

  New York Starbucks, I think.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I'm a guy who lives in New York. In New York. Now we're actually going to interview. Howard Behar, who is one of the big names at Starbucks in the future. So yeah, I mean, amazing. And Godwinks, what do they say? What did we learn from Dan Carsello? Godwinks, like this happens on our show. But that kind of what you mentioned about the peaceful warrior and the definition you gave kind of leads to the inspiration of the book. Is there anything flesh out there? But also it's like, what was the... You know, when you sat down to write this book, what was the audience that you had in mind to help them overcome or become more aligned with the warrior that they are or can be? Sure.

• Speaker #0

  By the way, somebody came up to me after a talk I gave once and said, I feel really inspired. I said, don't worry, it'll pass. Because inspiration comes and goes, motivation waxes and wanes. So it depends on something deeper than waiting to feel inspired or motivated. In any case, yeah, inspiration for the book, you know, a quick story that I tell. Socrates and I are walking down. By the way, I got a bit of this story into the movie two weeks before they started shooting. I told the director about it, and he skillfully incorporated it. So we were walking down Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley, California, and I'm seeing posters of the Vietnam War, because this was the late 60s, early 70s. and starving children, oppressed people. And I said, Socrates, I'm doing so much work on myself, self-analysis, self-massage even, Mongolian warrior massage, cleaning fear from the bone surfaces of the body, all that kind of stuff. And I said, all this navel-gazing, I said, aren't people in need out there? Shouldn't I be more socially active and politically active in the world? And he stopped and he said, take a swing at me. And I went, what? I said, did you just hear what I was saying? He said, come on, I'll give you five bucks if you can slap me up. Go for it. So I started bobbing and weaving and then I took a swing at him, found myself on the ground in a rather painful wrist lock. And as he helped me to my feet, he said, notice a little leverage can be very effective. And I went, yeah, I noticed shaking out of my wrist. And he said, well, if you want to help others, of course, do what your heart tells you. Do what you can in your practical circumstances. But don't neglect the work on yourself to develop that clarity, that mindfulness, so you can know how to exert the right leverage at the right place at the right time. And that made a difference to me, but I didn't know how I was going to do that. But somehow, like most people in high school or college, a 10-page paper I found totally intimidating. How am I going to fill up 10 pages? I was kind of moved to share my experiences to that time. And there's much more to that story. So I started writing. And this book shapeshifted over a seven-year period. Many, many, many drafts. And finally, it ended up the book. So it was my way to try to... See, I was really into self-improvement, like many of your listeners probably. I learned... But in my case, I mean, I learned ventriloquism. I learned... I'm hand skilled, martial arts, acrobatics and gymnastics. I took memory courses, speed reading, you name it, juggling. But one day it struck me that no matter how much I improve myself, only one person benefited. But if I could somehow improve the lives of other people, that made my life more meaningful. How might I do that? I didn't know until, you know, I... put together this book. I had no idea. I thought a few college students might like it. But that's how I ended up. Yeah. And I had no idea. It wasn't like for money. Most of us have dreams of being a bestselling author and all that, but it wasn't anything like that. I just wanted to share that material. And there's a long story about how the book came out and died and then came out again with a second life. But nonetheless, that's what inspired the book.

• Speaker #1

  and what moved me to write it yeah awesome and how about the you know as you're you're a young man writing this book i held you at the during this time like uh or younger man you know yeah right now i'm uh in february i'll turn 80 oh no wow wow yeah and this book it came out in 1980 so you started writing it in 73 right because it uh you said it took seven years around that time Well,

• Speaker #0

  I finished it around, yeah, around, well, I was about 34, 35. Okay. around then. Wow. I want to emphasize, people get put up on pedestals because I'm an author of 17 books, blah, blah, blah. Maybe it's 18. Yeah, I think it's 18 books now.

• Speaker #1

  You lose count after what, like 10?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, after 10. But the thing is, you don't have to write a book necessarily, though I encourage people to share the story of their life. Anybody who writes me through my website. I'm going to send them a little essay on encouraging them to do just that, a short essay on... your life on paper. So I encourage everyone to do that. Whether or not it's for a publication or wide distribution, who knows? But people make a difference in their own families. You know, Albert Schweitzer said, in influencing other people, example is not the main thing. It's the only thing.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, wow. There you go. I love that. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And so we can have, each of us can have an influence in the lives of others and do. um, for good or ill based on our behavior moment to moment.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, let's actually, let's dive into your book here. Here's like, here's the cover in case anybody wants to. And I think it's like probably the second cover. I was, I thought it was interesting that, you know, it was originally published in 1980 and then it kind of just died, like you said, and then picked up by a bigger author in 84 or something like that. Right. So, um, love it. Love it. Love it. Well, let's, let's get into, um, some of the main points of, uh, of the book and and first one here is like understanding the brain and the mind and i love the distinction that uh socrates make socrates makes and we're going to talk about your teacher a little bit uh as we go through this but um he says the brain and the mind are not the same the brain is real the mind isn't the mind is an illusionary illusionary illusionary illusionary sorry reflection of cerebral uh fidgeting It comprises of all the random uncontrolled thoughts that bubble into awareness, into the subconscious. Consciousness is not mind. Awareness is not mind. Attention is not mind. Mind is an obstruction, an aggravation. It is a kind of evolutionary mistake in the human being, a primal weakness in the human experiment. I have no use for the mind, is what Socrates says. so can you just Help us to flesh out that distinction between brain and mind. Because I'm reading this, I'm like, holy cow. All right, so what's going on here, Dan?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, remember, I wrote this book when I was 34. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I learned a lot over the years. Yes. I wouldn't take back anything I've written in the book by any means. But I might clarify it. It's really a matter of definition than semantics. The random accumulation of thoughts. You know, we don't... Thoughts happen to us. They appear, random thoughts. Of course, we have the intellect and the brain to write poetry and solve mathematics problems and invent AI. Let's not even get into that right now.

• Speaker #1

  It's getting scary, right? Oh, boy. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So the mind is capable of many things. It's wonderful. The intellect, the brain. Socrates, in the book, defined mind as these random assortment of thoughts, the busyness. The buzz, the monkey mind, stung by a scorpion, that kind of idea in Buddhist cosmology. So what I need to clarify, and this is a fundamental element of what I teach today, is that we have very little control over thoughts that simply pop into our awareness. We don't say, I think I'll think this thought next. You know, thoughts just happen. They pop in, we're aware of them. Sometimes they're positive, sometimes they're negative. It's not a problem. It's like dreams. You go to sleep at night, dreams happen. And during your day, thoughts happen. But the problem is we take them seriously. We mistake them for reality. You know, a young man came up to me after a talk I gave once and said, Dan, I understand you sometimes do personal one-on-one consultations with people, but it must be cost a lot for your time. He said, what can you tell a poor college student for a dollar? And he handed me a dollar. And I told him six words that were a lifetime practice that could change his life. And those six words were here and now, breathe and relax. And what I mean by that, the here and now part, you know, ad nauseum, we've covered that in so many books. I can talk about it if you want later. But the breathe and relax part is an antidote to stress. Now, I can tell people the formula for not having any stress in your life. Would you like to hear it?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I'm very curious. I kind of don't want to know the answer.

• Speaker #0

  Well, don't care about anything.

• Speaker #1

  There you go. Be a nihilist, right?

• Speaker #0

  But that's not really practical advice because we do care. We care about our lives, our work, our loved ones, and so on. So stress is going to be a part of our life, but it's not the stress. that causes the problems. Stress, you know, you can't put it in my hand. It's an idea. It's a concept for a feeling of maybe pressure in our head or tension in our stomach. It's certain situations people feel stressful. Like on a roller coaster about to go through the, on the big drop, you know, the first drop, two people are screaming, one with delight and excitement, the other with terror. Because one is saying, this is going to be so great, and the other, I'm going to die. So we experience, different people experience stress in different situations. Somebody might be stressed out at a party, a social gathering, but not on the sports field. Someone else might be just the opposite. So, stress is a part of our lives, but it's not the stress that is the problem. It's the tension and inhibited breathing that goes along with the stress. And two things that are under our control is, as you indicated at the beginning of our conversation, we can take a deep breath and we can relax the body. If you can tense the body, you can relax it. We tend to unconsciously tense our bodies a lot. But by just consciously letting go, relaxing, shaking loose, and taking a deep breath, can you imagine somebody sitting there going, Ah, I'm so stressed right now.

• Speaker #1

  Sounds like a cartoon.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. It's really, it's not the stress, it's the tension and inhibited breathing that is the problem. So those six words really are a lifetime practice. Remembering what is real. What is not real is the past. When we talk about the past, it no longer exists. It's only a set of neural impulses in our brain we call memory. And the future is not yet. It's never. It's always in the future. We call it imagination. Now, it's a wonderful gift, memory and imagination. But when we mistake them for reality, that's when we get very confused. There's an ancient proverb, The lesson is simple. The student is complicated. Yeah. We complicate everything. Sex, food. It's just fairly simple and straightforward. It's important for all of us to understand what we have and do not have control over. Because the basis of neurosis is trying to control things we have no control over. Right. And so emotions, for example, very important. Very important. Um, Many people who come to me say, I'm interested in enlightenment, illumination, awakening, or just personal spiritual growth. But really what they're asking for is, can you tell me a way to feel good more of the time and feel bad less of the time? So our feelings are very important. However, as it happens, we don't have any direct conscious control over what we happen to be feeling in any given moment. Emotions are like weather patterns that just pass through us. The only thing we can control is our behavior. If I were asked you to touch the tip of your nose, you could do it. You can will yourself to do it and then, wow, it happens. I mean, that's amazing. Unless we're disabled, then we can't do that. But most people can control how they move their arms and legs and their mouth. That's a behavior. So that is what... we focus on. That's why it's a way of action, because it simplifies our life, trying to fix our emotions, laying one emotion over the other, or fix our thoughts, or quiet the mind, have it still in meditation, the illusion that we're supposed to have a completely quiet mind. We sit down and close our eyes, and we start seeing all that internal stuff. So that's fine. Eventually, we recognize mindfully, you know, let me just bring up the word mindfulness because obviously it's men talking mindfulness.

• Speaker #1

  And we're three men talking mindfulness right now. Imagine that.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. Can you imagine that? And I know I'm going on, but there's some enthusiasm in wanting to share this with you and your audience. Mindfulness has become a thing, like I practice mindfulness, but really it's just paying attention to what is going on in the present moment without judgments. Just noticing. And if we turn that mindfulness into the inner content, like in meditation, we call it mindfulness meditation. But more important, because we don't live our lives in a cross-legged position. We're moving around. We're doing things in everyday life. Mindfulness in everyday life is the key, is paying attention to what's going on in the present moment without getting too wrapped up in memory or imagination. Nothing wrong with that. We can plan our day, but The day usually will not unfold the way we planned it. What did Mike Tyson used to say? First, you make a plan, then you get hit, right? Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Then you get punched in the mouth.

• Speaker #2

  Until you get punched in the mouth.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  I'm glad we're all Mike Tyson fans. Well, you touched on a lot there, Dan. Yeah. And, um, you know, and I, I, um, cause one thing I really enjoyed in the book, like, I mean, was, was your whole journey with Socrates and, and understanding these tools and he sends you away to medit for on meditation. You take it very seriously. And I just loved reading like how serious you were about the meditation. but also the breathing you mentioned earlier. And that's like really our first behavior in some ways, right? And it's our last behavior, but it's also the behavior that we can control or we can do our best we can to control in every moment if we really want to, once we get to know it, which is very important. And one thing that I really appreciated that, you know, Socrates said to you about the breathing. And I remember like this set with me after when I first read this book back in 2008, for a while, it's like breathe so softly that if you held a feather underneath your nose, it wouldn't even move. And I was like, wow, like that's the level of calm and patience and peacefulness that you can really use the breath for. And I teach yoga here in the city and meditation and other things as well. And John and I are doing more corporate speaking as well. And I really talk about the importance of the breath. And it's just like it's the one thing in any moment. And it brings us into the moment as well. that can take us out of the mind, into the moment, become more mindful, become more aware, slow things down, and be not just aware of the environment around us, but also the inner environment, which that's what really gets us in trouble. Then you also touched on feelings as well. And I love the little equation that Socrates has here about happiness. And he says, happiness is satisfaction divided by desire. right and he goes on to say the secret is developing the capacity to enjoy less so what do you have to say to guys out there who keep accumulating more stuff that's this guy over here yeah got so much he probably bought three more gadgets in the last like couple days or so well so what do you have to say to john right yeah

• Speaker #0

  john just just move a lot. And every time you move, you're going to get rid of stuff,

• Speaker #2

  right? Oh, I did that in the Navy. I did. I get rid of stuff every single time I moved. Then somehow I accumulated more.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yeah. We moved from a five bedroom house in Marin County, California to a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment in a pre-war co-op building in Brooklyn, New York, because we have two daughters and three grandkids here. So That's our emotional center of gravity right now.

• Speaker #1

  Wow. Oh, you're in Brooklyn right now? You're in Brooklyn?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, yeah. Living in Brooklyn the last 11 years. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  shit. I'm in Queens. I would love to get coffee with you if you can or something like that. I would love to. Yeah, we're not far. But anyway, keep going. Please tell us about happiness. And John, how you can stop accumulating more stuff. Sorry, John.

• Speaker #0

  Well, let me say this about happiness. I used to think it was what everyone was seeking. because whether it's a new car, more money in the bank, traveling more, all that represents, you know, better relationship. It all represents, then I'll be happy. And, you know, the best thing about going to college is you find out it doesn't make you happy. Maybe for a moment when you get your diploma, oh, wow, you know, great. A few moments of happiness. We've all had moments of happiness, that satisfaction and all that. But there are people who never went to college that For years, they suffer under the illusion, if only I'd gone to college, I'd be happy. If only I had an even better relationship, I'd be happy. If only I'd had children, I'd be happy. If only I hadn't had children, I'd be happy. If only I made more money. If only I traveled more. When I retire, then I'll be happy. And we realize future happiness never arrives. I present happiness today. as a practice. Now, what do I mean by that? Well, let me put it this way. One of the most controversial things that I express is that I don't encourage people to feel happy or loving or peaceful or kind or courageous or confident. I only encourage people to behave that way. Now, people might go, wait a minute, that sounds like pretense. You mean pretend to be happy? No, not really. And I give the example, what if you were walking down the street and you saw a little toddler walking out in the middle of heavy traffic, cars whizzing by. You might be terrified to run out into traffic, but you end up doing that, feeling afraid, and grabbing the child, running back and saving its life. And you were afraid, and yet you behaved with courage. In the same way, we can feel irritable and behave with kindness. We can feel shy and behave with confidence. That's what I mean. Again, I emphasize what our lives have been shaped by what we've done over time. Despite all our dreams, we are what we do, moment to moment. That's what creates our life. And so waiting for the right feeling, the right motivation, the right inspiration doesn't really happen. It's like what needs doing right now and doing it. That's what takes that warrior spirit.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I mean, years ago I learned the whole difference between have do be versus be do have. Right. So if like I have the car, the job, the college degree, you know, and I'm doing the things in order to make those things happy, then I'm going to be, you know, happy versus like if I am happy, content, you know, and I do things to continually support my happiness, then I can have anything I want. you know so it's really like working from the inside out instead of it making From my experience in making it about accumulating more things that you kind of label as like, well, that's going to make me happy. And then once you acquire it, it's like, oh, well, what's next? It's like we're always getting that, searching for that dopamine rush, or just being a slave to it in some ways.

• Speaker #2

  I've got a question really quick. And I have to admit, embarrassingly enough, Dan, I have not read the book.

• Speaker #0

  Don't worry.

• Speaker #2

  So it's a work of fiction, correct? And Socrates- No,

• Speaker #0

  actually, it blends autobiographical fact, law that is true, with fictional elements, significant fictional elements as well.

• Speaker #2

  So, okay, with that, and forgive me here, Socrates is clearly not the Greek philosopher in this book, but is it- Is Socrates a fictional teacher of yours that's modeled after the Greek philosopher?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's a very good question, a very important question. I did meet this cosmic old service station attendant a little after three in the morning. It was coming home from a late night date. And I wandered by this old Texaco station on the corner of Oxford and Hearst in Berkeley, California, on the way back to my boarding house area. And I wandered into the station, met this cosmical guy, had a long conversation with him. Uh, and when it came time to write the book, I based it on him. Now, this old guy, for some reason, reminded me of my image of the old ancient Greek from Athens, Socrates, the philosopher. By the way, Socrates once said, by all means, marry. The ancient Greek said, not my Socrates, but the original Socrates. He was known for saying, by all means, marry. Uh, if you choose well, you'll be happy. If you don't, you'll become a philosopher.

• Speaker #1

  There you go. So it's like a win-win situation for people.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, exactly. But the thing is, he did remind me of the ancient Greeks. So when it came time to write the book, nobody's going to really listen to a 35-year-old guy talk about life and bigger picture of life. So just like Daniel had Mr. Miyagi, right? And Frodo had Gandalf, and Arthur had Merlin, and Carlos Castaneda had the brujo, Don Juan. So in literature and life, this mentor-student relationship, I honored that by creating this teacher whom I called Socrates. Now, I wrote a book 25 years later called The Journeys of Socrates, and it's really about how a man became a warrior, or how a boy became a man, how a man became a warrior, and how a warrior found peace. That's the essence of the book, The Journeys of Socrates. And it was based on so many people that asked me, who was this old guy? Was he ever married? How did he become this cosmical character? And so I created a story around that. It starts in Russia in 1872, and it tells his life story. So anyway, I hope that responds to the question of, he is a character. Now, in my latest book, Peaceful Heart, Warrior Spirit, In the preface, I make a confession about Socrates, because it's the true story behind my spiritual quest, a 20-year period of preparation with four radically different teachers over a 20-year period. Most people think, oh, they saw the movie, they read the book, they think, Dan met this old guy in a service station, now he teaches. But no, there was a lot more to that story.

• Speaker #1

  Got it. Okay.

• Speaker #2

  I think I've seen the movie now that you mentioned him. him being found at the gas station. That was

• Speaker #1

  Nick Nolte.

• Speaker #2

  Nick Nolte. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I have seen that. All right. I love it. Now I know where I'm at.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I was going to say, the lifeboat just fell. Well, okay. Well, Socrates in the book, Dan, like, you know, why why i gotta ask i'm as i'm reading this book i'm like why is socrates such a prick you know half the time you know what i mean he's like a really good teacher at times and i love you know i mean because i almost i i understand in some ways like but he just was like very very kind very deliberate like very intentional how he teaches you you know what seemed like a really great mentor really great teacher and then he just is like mysterious and like and quite a prick sometimes. So. You know, and he was. I mean, you're shaking your head, Dan. I see it as like, yeah, he was a prick. Like, so what, like, is that necessary? You know, that kind of attitude and fortitude and like strength within a teacher, you know, to really help to, for you to continually stay awake and continually like self-reflect and continually move forward on this path?

• Speaker #0

  Well, yeah. You know, somebody came up to me once and said, Dan, you seem like a nice guy. I said, sometimes. Because sometimes we're this, sometimes we're that. And And, uh, given that I was a bit full of myself as a young, successful, like world champion athlete, you know, as a freshman in college, a bit full of myself that he had to shake me up a little bit and, uh, tear down those layers of, uh, um, self-assurance. Cause you know, kids, guys in their twenties, they're bulletproof, you know, they can do anything. They know, they know everything. Um, so, so I was around, uh, around that age, about 20. and So that's why the story has him sometimes very tender and sometimes very tough.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah. And I kind of like that dichotomy. I like the yin and the yang there for sure. Well, let's dive into what it takes to become a warrior. And in the book, it says it's necessary to pass through the gate, right? And here's a quote here.

• Speaker #0

  As a metaphor.

• Speaker #1

  What's that? As a metaphor. Oh, yeah, yeah, I get it, yeah. So I'm just going to read this. The realm of the warrior is guarded by something like a gate. It's well hidden, like a monastery in a mountain. Many knock, but few can enter. So what does a gate represent?

• Speaker #0

  Well, it was more of a dramatic device, as if the cosmic oar is going to smack us alongside the head and we'll finally get the message. Eventually, some people can meditate literally five minutes and they have a realization. Others, 50 years. Until we finally realize we're not just aware of the mind, aware of the body. We're not just the witness of all that. But we are awareness itself. And I can say the words and people can go, oh, wow, maybe I'm awareness itself or consciousness. this. But until we realize it, until it... penetrates us. And that's what spiritual practice is all about in our work until we finally get the message and we start living from that viewpoint that we are pure awareness. It's like love has been defined as recognizing the same consciousness in other people as in yourself. It's the same awareness shining through billions of eyes on planet Earth. And it's just a matter of becoming a clear vessel. of that awareness, recognizing not only we're all in this together, but we are actually one. Now, in one of my books called The Hidden School, I go through the key of paradox. Remember Socrates' business card said paradox, humor, and change. But paradox is a key to understanding. Let me put it this way. In the beginning of The Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens, He starts out, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times, and all these different opposites. And a paradox are opposites that are both true. There's a story about Mullah Nasruddin, a Sufi wise man who walked into the marketplace and found two men about to come to blows because they had opposite opinions about some important object, an important topic. And... There's a crowd of people gathered around. They said, ah, the mullah, he's wise. He will know who's right. So the first guy says, yeah, listen. And he tells his side of the story. And Nasruddin says, you know what? You're right. And the second man says, wait a minute. You haven't heard my side yet. And oh, what's your side? And he tells his side of the story. And Nasruddin says, you're right. And a bystander said, mullah, they can't both be right. He scratches his head and said, you know what? You're right. We're all right from our viewpoint, from our place in evolution, from our understanding and our scope of life. So the point I'm making here is that... If we talk about free will, free will, does it exist? Yes. Oh, but maybe it's an illusion too. From a higher viewpoint, from a transcendent viewpoint, time. Time seems to pass. Conventional view, time is real. From a transcendental view, there's only the eternal present. How about, are we separate selves? Well, demonstrably, if I stub my toe, it doesn't hurt. you guys, unless you're highly empathic, right? So we're separate beings responsible for our own lives through our choices and taking responsibility. But from a higher viewpoint, if we are pure awareness, then there are no separate selves. We are literally all one consciousness. And finally, death. Death is real. I was there when my father died and I won't see him again. The body dissolves. It decomposes. But from a transcendental viewpoint, awareness is never born and never dies. So it's about realizing that. And that's more than happiness. It's been called bliss. It's a realization that's more important than almost anything. So this is cosmic stuff. But it's not about intellectually understanding it. It's about doing the practices and finally having some breakthroughs. And we all have had those. moments, numinous moments where we, oh yeah, we get, it's like being down in the weeds and then suddenly find ourselves on the mountaintop with a 360 degree panoramic vision. Astronauts went up into space and they looked back at the earth and they became mystics. They said, you know, our problems aren't that big a deal. Look at this beautiful planet. You know, we're all there together. Crew members on spaceship earth, as Bucky Fuller used to say. So that's a higher teaching. But meanwhile, I try to be very practical. You know, I teach a four-minute Peaceful Warrior workout based on the idea a little of something is better than a lot of nothing. I teach four-minute meditation where we get to experience the process of dying and what we have to let go of, which nothing like that helps us appreciate life more. And I do these every day, every day. I've done them for... 40, well, I've done the workout for probably 50 years now. And the meditation for the last 20, when I created. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. One of some of those most, you know, you've done a lot of speaking, you've done a lot of work out there, you've written a lot of books. And yeah, there must be some common gates that people kind of experience or, you know, that are out there that really are difficult for people to overcome. Like, what are some of those that you continue to run into as you? continually spread the good word of, you know, being a peaceful warrior.

• Speaker #0

  Well, one thing, one gateway, let's say, is stop trying to change everyone else in the world and realize we can change our vision, our own perception of life. We look at life through a filter colored by our projections, associations, beliefs, and opinions. It's about clearing that window of perception. So we start seeing life simply.

• Speaker #1

  as it is and accepting that that's one major gateway thank you and that's like spot on yeah i mean i think a lot of people can identify with that for sure and uh well then and then another another thing that gets in the way and and we you kind of alluded to earlier and and why it's so important to really find your breath meditate you know know what the now is so you can get away from like all the fiction of the mind typically is is uh is our emotions and uh you And so, like, a lot of men out there struggle with anger. You know, how, you know, you talk about in the book the alchemy of emotions. How do we turn something like anger into something that's more positive and productive? Well,

• Speaker #0

  even Mahatma Gandhi, who believed in nonviolence, said anger can transform the world if rightly used. I gave a talk at San Quentin Prison in the Bay Area when I lived there. I was invited by someone who was in the Prison Insight Project. They did yoga and meditation. practice. And a very large inmate came up to me after my little talk and said, you know, I have a problem with rage. And I looked at him and I looked up at him and said, no, you don't. And he said, yes, I do. I'm trying to scare you. And I said, no, you don't. I said, the problem you have is not with rage. That's just an inner storm. The problem is what you do. when you're feeling that rage, when your behavior. And so he'd been trying to fix not getting angry. But you know, anger management courses don't manage anger. They manage behavior. They teach you to count to 10, to take some deep breaths and so on. So you don't react in the same way. But again, I remind people, we don't have direct control. We can't will ourselves to feel differently from the way we feel in any given moment. Emotions pass and change all the time. So the point is, a light bulb went on for him. Because he realized, wow, I can change my behavior. I can't change my emotions. I can still be enraged, right? I said, yeah, be enraged as much as you want. For example, when you're enraged at your wife, which is what got him in prison in the first place, I said, slam the door while you're leaving the room where she is. So in other words, do something different. And that's a key for many people is not about managing anger not getting angry anymore or not getting sad anymore not getting fearful anymore you know remember customato the boxing coach said my heroes and cowards feel exactly the same fear they just respond differently yeah

• Speaker #1

  yeah it's funny i was just looking uh i just saw well we mentioned mike tyson earlier that was customato's teacher our customato was was mike tyson's teacher and I literally just saw I was scrolling through social media and I saw something like Mike Tyson hugging Customato. I was like, and here we are talking about him again. It's crazy how it all works. Well, you know, another thing that I really enjoyed in the book was when Socrates was talking about moderation. And I thought this was really interesting because like we hear like everything in moderation, do a little of this, do a little of that, you know? And then, and then I read this and it like, and it really kind of hit me because, and this is a quote from Socrates, it says, moderation, he leaped up on his desk like an evangelist, moderation, it's mediocrity, fear and confusion in disguise. It's the devil's dilemma. It's neither doing nor not doing. It's the wobbling compromise that makes no one happy. Moderation is for the bland, the apologetic. For the fence sitters of the world, afraid to take a stand is for those afraid to laugh or cry, or for those afraid to live or die. Moderation, he took a deep breath, getting ready for his final condemnation, is lukewarm tea, the devil's own brew. So I really enjoyed that statement right there about moderation. So help us understand that. I love that idea of It's almost like we talked about the fool and the intelligent man before on the show. And like the fool just gets up and tries and does and fails and does again and eventually succeeds. Right. Whereas the intelligent man just thinks and sits in the fence, stays in the audience. Right. And judges and criticizes. So how does that all this wise moderation kind of the death of experience, if you will?

• Speaker #0

  Well, yeah. And that was a bit of an extreme statement. But, you know, that was Socrates. That was the character. I'm amused, you know. So the point he was making is, do you want to just have a lukewarm shower every night? Or do you want to take a hot shower, then a cold shower? That is a form of balance as well. Now, Buddhists will be horrified by that idea. That's a whole statement that Socrates made in the book, because it's all about the middle way. It's not the, you know, the Buddha himself, the story is, you know, in Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. about how he was wealthy and protected from illness and from sites of people growing old. And then he went up into the ascetic. He escaped to the forest and lived as a sannyasin, which is a renunciate, barely eating enough food and doing physical austerities and so on. And finally, he discovered it in watching the river flow the middle way. Um, so it's not about abandoning the middle way and a life of balance, but balance can be one extreme than the other extreme. It, um, so yeah, I mean, I take a hot shower than a cold shower. That's what I do. I don't take a lukewarm shower. Um, so that's what he was talking about. Uh, ideas of being kind of milquetoast and halfway, you know, thinking about doing something is the same as not doing it. And it's also been said that you don't want to. act without thinking or think without acting. So it's, again, one of my little books is called The Laws of Spirit. And this ageless woman sage teaches me these 12 spiritual laws through the mountains and through the natural world. And the first law in the book is the law of balance, which I go into in terms of accelerating one's learning process and so on. Obviously, I've got more than I could possibly share in this particular conversation. But so it's not about abandoning balance. it's recognizing that you don't want to just, you know, the Japanese have that saying, when you sit, sit, when you stand, stand, just don't wobble in between.

• Speaker #1

  Right. Well, I feel that it really plays into, you know, his three core tenets of like, you know, paradox, change and, and, and humor, right? Whereas like paradox, it's like, if you're going to go, then go, you know what I mean? And do it and have the best time you possibly can with it, right? Instead of wondering. you know, if I should do it or like, you know, or wobble or, or like think, or, or, you know, contemplate in some ways, or, you know, what do they say? Paralysis by analysis by paralysis. And if you're going to go in the other direction, then go in the other direction and see what happens. You know, I think that's the only, that's like paradox. And what we're talking about here, it really speaks to experience. And if you really want to experience something, then dive in, jump in, but you know, both feet, you know, and then see what happens. Cause that's when you're getting results. And that's when those results can really, you can process those results. And then maybe come up with a new way forward for yourself. But if you're just going to wobble, right, and like play like, well, maybe I'll just have, you know, maybe I'll do a little bit or maybe just a little toe. You're really not going to, you know, go anywhere, right? I mean, that's, you know, then that's, I think it speaks to that paradox. Like,

• Speaker #0

  be bold because you can't jump over a chasm in a couple of small steps.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you can fall down into the chasm, well, you know what I mean? At least you took the leap, you know, if you will. Um, so, um, we're going to kind of, uh, we're closing things out a little bit and just kind of getting to more of a, you know, ways that, uh, the people that are listening, um, could, you know, maybe change the course of their lives, right. By with some of this information. Um, so, you know, why would, with, with being a peaceful warrior and if someone can jump on this path and, uh, being a peaceful warrior is like, why is it so important to always, you know, to always do your best in the way of the peaceful warrior?

• Speaker #0

  Well, that's a very good question because it brings up, again, back to what we can and can't control. I never advise people to strive for success because, you know, we can't control the outcomes in our lives. That's a fact. We can't control whether we make a putt every time or sink a basket or find love or success. But we can control our efforts. And by making a good effort over time. We vastly increase the odds of getting our desired result over not making the effort. Was it Wayne Gretzky who said you make 0% of the shots you don't take? Yeah. So I say strive for excellence. Whatever that means to you, strive for excellence. And let success take care of itself. In fact, I redefine success as making progress toward a meaningful goal. Because we're hardwired goal seekers, everybody out there. When I watched my grandchildren, again, reviewing from my children, that was a long time ago. But the grandkids are fresh reminders. When my little granddaughter was crawling across the floor, she wasn't doing it to get a workout. She wanted her brother's shiny toy. She was going for something. So hardwired, at the time we're very young, from our point A, we need a point B. And if we're making progress toward a goal that's meaningful to us, that's what absorbs us. That's what gets us into the flow. To me, that's success, not just reaching the destination.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, I mean, even preparing for today, you know, I kind of set the questions or started. I set the questions like days ago and I had certain parts of the book I wanted to read. And I was like, I literally rehearsed the intro a few times. Like I read through all the passages I wanted to read because it's like, I mean, that's, you know, I. because when we get here and we're being spontaneous or having fun and I want to be in the flow of the conversation and not lost in or nervous about like, oh, my God, am I going to am I going to fuck up that passage or something, you know? So I just like I read, I slow down, I do it, I prepare, prepare, prepare. And it's like, here we are. We're live. We're doing this together right now, you know, and and I am trying to do my best, you know, and that's like and this is the best I can hope for right now is what exactly is happening right in this moment.

• Speaker #2

  So success will take care of itself.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. That's right.

• Speaker #0

  By definition, we always do our best. You know, we don't always see it that way. Our parents did the best they could raising us, whether they were kind and attentive or abusive. They did that within their wounds, their limited life space, their visions, their suffering, their traumas. They were doing the best they knew how at the time and may not have been good on an absolute scale. In the same way, each of us does our best each day. I have these young guys come up to me saying, Dan, you know, I'm doing pretty well, but I want to reach my potential. How can I do that? And I go, well, maybe you reached your potential yesterday. Maybe the rest is coasting, you know, and having a good time with life. Maybe that's true. So it's crazy making, but I'm not doing 100%. What is that, you know? I think each day we just live to our fullest, follow our nose and our instincts. And by the way, while I'm at that... One source of suffering today, especially among young people, is they compare themselves to other people. They look on social media, Facebook, TikTok, and everyone seems to be having a better time, being better looking, better dressed, whatever. And as soon as we compare ourselves to other people, it's a primary, it's disrespect for our own lives. Someone once said, I cannot write a book. by Shakespeare, but I can write a book by me. And I used to teach gymnastics and I noticed some people learned back somersault, let's say, easier and quicker than other people. But those who took longer to learn it often learned it better than those who learned it faster. So we need to respect our own way of learning and our own way of living and trust our own lives unfolding, not try to be somebody else.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, I mean, it gets where they say comparison is theft of joy. You know, I mean, and it's very true. It's very true.

• Speaker #2

  Reminds me of Simple Man by Lynyrd Skynyrd, right? The song where they're talking, the mom is talking to their son. I just want you to be a simple man. And I listened to that song growing up and I am not a simple man, but I wish I was. And that ties into, you know, Socrates. And this is me talking through Will, Will and I. work together, but he helped to put these notes together because he read the book and I watched the movie years ago. But Socrates' final words were, remain ordinary and you can be useful to others. One, what does that mean? And then two, I don't feel that you've remained ordinary, Dan, but how have you remained ordinary?

• Speaker #0

  Well, anybody, I hope that's written on my epitaph. He was a regular guy.

• Speaker #1

  I could tell you are, man. You could seem like a very good guy.

• Speaker #0

  It keeps me humble, I'll tell you. Golda Meir, the Prime Minister of Israel a while back, Golda Meir once said, stop acting so humble, you're not that great. So you don't want to be too humble, but humility is seeing yourself in the perspective of the universe, how small we all are. But meanwhile, we do our best. So. I, I'm just, uh, you know, what you see is what you get.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. A little bit. Right. Yeah. And just like, I mean, is that, yeah, I mean, that's, that's probably one way I'd imagine Dan, I, that you stay ordinary. Is there anything else that, you know, that you, you know, remind yourself of, if you will, to, to just be ordinary, um, anything? I mean.

• Speaker #0

  Well, I don't think I have to go around saying, Dan, be ordinary, be ordinary. Yeah. Well, I'm extraordinary and I have, you know. Right. Right. A lot of it's just luck, karma, timing, genetics. We're hardwired different ways. And it's impossible for me to take credit or get puffy about the things I've accomplished. That's just how I was wired. So I do what I do, and you do what you do, and we all do what we all do. And by the way, and it's probably not a bad place for me to end my sharing, is I respect people's process. which means there is no best book, no best teacher, no best path or religion or diet or exercise book or philosophy. There's only the best for each of us at a given time of our lives. Life is an experiment. We have to find out what works for us. Yeah. Well, that's well,

• Speaker #1

  that's that way at times.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And there's, it is an experiment.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  You're going to have some miserable failures.

• Speaker #0

  Uh, well, I mean, just, just one last question, Dan, like, you know, anyone that's feeling, listening out there that's feeling a little lost, you know, where is the, like the best place they could start to become that peaceful warrior?

• Speaker #2

  Well, let me, in a practical way, I invite people to visit my website. I know that's an old hat thing to do, visit a website, but. peacefulwarrior.com, and they can join my free monthly newsletter. And I share favorite quotes. It's a hobby of mine, sharing inspiring quotes and making some announcements and a few comments about life. So it's not too long, because I know everybody's overwhelmed with their inbox and all that. But it's just once a month. It's free. And that's it. And at my website, I have some online courses. Uh, my books are listed there. Audio programs. I love audio. I go exercise and listen to an audio. Yeah. So, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And this would be a great book. Yeah. Sorry, Dan. Go ahead.

• Speaker #2

  Well, I'll listen to men speaking mindfulness too.

• Speaker #0

  There you go. Yeah, for sure. And I, and I do suggest get this on audio book or read, you know, the way of peaceful warrior. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a great read. I mean, it really, it flows very well. You know, it, it, it has a depth to it, of course, that I really appreciated, you know, really made me think and stop. and And this is like, I mean, I'm like 52 now, and it's like 17 years later, and it's like there's still a lot of wisdom deeply held in this book that anybody, regardless of where in your path, could definitely hear and absorb and begin to understand what it takes to live more as a peaceful warrior. And I thought it'd be an honor to you, Dan, to read one of the closing passages towards the end of the book. And then we'll do, and if you like, Dan, you know, we do, if you like to lead the end of the, we do a little like a little closing practice if you like to lead something, you know, no pressure, but we'd be honored to have you do that. But let me just read this first. And here we go. And I think it's, yeah, this is you. You said, I walked up university and then along Shattuck, passing through the streets like a happy phantom, the Buddhist ghost. I wanted to whisper in people's ears, wake up, wake up. Soon the person you believe you are will die. So now wake up and be content with this knowledge. Here there is no need to search. Achievement leads to nowhere. It makes no difference at all. So just be happy now. Love is the only reality of the world because it is all one, you see. And the only laws are paradox humor and change there are no problems never was and never will be release your struggle let go of your mind throw away your concerns and relax into the world no need to resist life just do your best open your eyes and see that you are far more than you imagine you are the world you are the universe you are yourself and everyone else too it's all the marvelous play of god wake up regain your humor Don't worry, you are already free. Boom. I love that closing passage. I was like, yeah, yeah. And I read it pretty damn well because I practiced and I was ready. I'm just kidding.

• Speaker #1

  You did your best.

• Speaker #2

  Great job.

• Speaker #0

  I was just kidding. But if you like, Jan, again, we close with a little practice. If you'd like to lead us through something for a few minutes, whether it's breathing or something that can help us, if you like. If not, John, I could. Please. Thank you.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, I suggest to your listeners, your viewers, that if you're in a place where you can do so, you can either close your eyes or keep them open and just take a nice deep breath, let it out, and take a couple more breaths. But think of breathing in the good stuff, breathing in light, filling the whole body. With the inhalation. Filling the body, feel the light, just fill your body, healing, balancing every cell. And then as you exhale, exhale any negativity, any darkness, any tension. And then inhaling with each inhalation, inhale the light, then exhale at your leisure any negativity. And it's like we used to tell our daughters, breathe in the good stuff. Breathe out the bad stuff, set your troubles free. And as you do that, just imagine you're out of the body and you're just viewing the earth. from space, seeing that blue-green marble floating in the blackness. And somewhere down there, you have all your dramas, your personal dramas, as does everyone else, as we're all stumbling toward the light together. And remember that perspective when you get too wrapped up in how important your own issues are. And know that this too shall pass. And one last breath and that's it. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Well, God, thank you so much. Dan Millman, everybody. Great to have you here. I really, you know, thank you so much for all the work that you put in the world. And again, get the book, read the book, audio the book, read the book again, audio book twice. It's really good. But Dan, thank you for sharing your time today. Thank you for the man that you are and the inspiration that you continually be for so many people out there.

• Speaker #2

  Thank you, guys. I appreciate the invitation and opportunity.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. Thank you, Dan. And for our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for watching. And we appreciate you all. Until next time, take care, everyone. Bye-bye.

• Speaker #3

  Thank you for joining us today. We hope you walk away with some new tools and insights to guide you on your life journey. New episodes are being published every week, so please join us again for some meaningful discussion. For more information, please check out mentalkingmindfulness.com.