- Speaker #0
And I spent a little bit of time on the front end, and I was in this village where there was a lot of Buddhists there, and there was a monk, and he said, do you want to play checkers? And I said, sure, I'll play checkers. And we're playing checkers, and in the middle of checkers, he looks at me with full presence. It wasn't just a question. He had some energy to it. And he looked at me, and he goes, are you happy? My doorway into rites of passage is particularly earth-based. Culturally speaking, it's relevant to our time. times. And so it's really, for me, like the doorway into a rite of passage is through our connection to the earth or to nature or to wildness. And when I connect to the land, it's like everything is in movement all the time. There's nothing that's still. And when I think of the word passage, it implies movement. And so when I think about a rite of passage, it's a community held opportunity for an individual to have deliberate movement. in their life.
- Speaker #1
Raw, uncut, and unapologetic. Welcome to Men Talking Mindfulness.
- Speaker #2
All right. Welcome back to the Men Talking Mindfulness show. A couple of months ago, Will and I were going back and forth just talking about rites of passage. And hey, it would be cool to have someone on the show to talk about that. And literally like less than a day or two later, Darren reached out. We're going to have Darren Silver on the show. He's all about Just that thing, rites of passage, spending time. the wilderness and helping people really reconnect with who they are and where they're going. And he's been guiding this kind of work for years. And I'm very excited. We are very excited. Just sit down and hear what he has to share about this very thing, rites of passage. Will, Darren, great to see you guys. Will, I'll turn it over to you for the rest of the intro. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Hey, good to be back, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Yeah. So, hey, just any... you want to plug into what men talking mindfulness is doing, just head to men talking mindfulness.com uh, Spartan race coming up October 19th in Dallas. It's only like, my God, five weeks away. So come join us. And maybe that could be a little rite of passage, you know, doing this 21 obstacle course, uh, 5k 3.1 miles and having fun and connect with men and, uh, and other people that are going to be attending as well. Um, all right, so let's just ground ourselves with this one breath. all right so sit up tall get that dignified spine online all right let's start with a nice little full exhale out the mouth let it go easy easy easy empty out and take one big giant inhale keep a little more and let's hold here at the top for three two one exhale let it go Great, great, great. Rites of passage. Here we go. And thanks everybody for tuning in. Maybe leave a review on our podcast. Maybe share it with somebody else that's out there. John, let's go.
- Speaker #2
Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. Darren, again, thanks for joining us here, man. Happy to have you.
- Speaker #0
It's great to be here, guys. Yeah. It's good to be with you both.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, well, let's just jump right into there. And what we talked about it there in the intro, you know, rites of passage. We've heard that. A lot of us have kind of envisioned that they're kind of... something that's long past or something that may be some ancient tribes or tribes that we are not really a part of, or I don't know that that it's just something of the past or something others do. What do you for you yourself? What do you mean by the word rite of passage?
- Speaker #0
Well, you know, my doorway into rites of passage is particularly earth based. so like Culturally speaking, it's relevant to our times. And so it's really, for me, like the doorway into a rite of passage is through our connection to the earth or to nature or to wildness. And I'm a word nerd. I love like picking things apart a lot.
- Speaker #1
Great. Me too.
- Speaker #0
And when I connect to the land, it's like everything is in movement all the time. There's nothing that's still. And when I think of the word passage, it implies movement. And so when I think about a rite of passage, it's like a, it's a community held opportunity for an individual to have deliberate movement in their life. And so I can break down what that looks like, right?
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Please. Movement. What a big word. Movement. Exactly. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Movement from status. Movement from one chapter of life to the next. Movement from middle school to high school. From high school to college. I'm a little distracted because all of a sudden this like... block of turkeys just sort of clucking outside my door.
- Speaker #1
I'm like, what is going on outside? I saw a truck full of dead turkeys drive by going to the grocery store. That's as close as I get in New York. But anyway, I'm sorry. I'm jealous. I was like,
- Speaker #0
what is going on outside my door?
- Speaker #2
Darren's in Boulder and I'm in Colorado Springs. Will is in New York City. So completely different experience there for Will.
- Speaker #1
No, for real.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, they're making a racket out there. Um, or from like, you know, a lot of people will show up. I primarily work with adults, but, but they're feeling the tug of movement in their life. Um, they're ready to step out of a career. They're ready to step into a marriage. Um, you know, the list goes on and on. And so it's like, it's a community held opportunity where one is given the right to say, yes, make that move in your life, make that movement. And the way that I'm going to do it. or I'm going to facilitate it, is let's get in contact with the earth, which is always in movement, and allow that to assist us in our internal movement. To me, that's like the nuts and bolts, a way that I can talk about it. Historically, that is still there. It was about movement, but there was a lot more cultural attributes. that went along with our rites of passage. Yeah. And these days we are kind of bereft of rites of passage that carry gravity, that carry like some real consequence and weight and also, you know, put us in a much greater story than ourselves.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Elaborate on that. What do you mean like a greater story than ourselves? Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I mean, there's an author out there, Um, Francis Weller, I believe he wrote a book called The Wild Edge of Sorrow. He's a psychotherapist. And somewhere in that book, he says something like, it may not be verbatim, like rites of passage of old never had to do with the individual. It never had to do with the self. And that's the challenge that we have these days, is what is the relationship between me and my own growth and that which I'm invited to participate in. which is life or my culture or providership. And, you know, in times of old, it, it didn't have to do with as much about the self as much as what we were being invited to participate in.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Like you're becoming, we're become like part of a greater whole, like you're talking about here or like, we're kind of, we're kind of, we're actually said move, So we're kind of... Is it that we're like moving into a different part of our lives through society kind of thing?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm kind of diving into the deep end real quick.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. If there's something that we need to kind of like pull out and like pull some strings on a little bit, then go right ahead. If we can go deep and, you know, unless John, you're feeling something. Yeah.
- Speaker #2
I mean, just so my background, Darren, I don't know what you know about me, but I'm a retired Navy SEAL. And when I was going through training. There was this one guy of Native American descent and a lot of the stuff we do is swimming. So we see one another with our shirts off all the time. And he had these two huge scars on his chest, like right up on his upper pectorals. And we were like, what the hell is that, man? He's like, oh, this comes from my rite of passage. And we're like, what is that? And he had like, and you probably know better than what I about this rite of passage, but basically had like Um, some type of chain link or something put through his chest and then connected to a tree and he hung off this thing until the, maybe he was just full of crap. But, um, I remember him saying that this rite of passage took him from boy being a boy to being a man. But it also, like you said, it wasn't just about him. It was about what he was becoming a part of. And that part of Bigger, that was... the brotherhood or the group of men that he was becoming a part of. That's what I kind of got from what you were just saying. It's not just about him, but it's basically about him becoming something, a part of something way bigger than himself.
- Speaker #0
Exactly. Exactly. And the same mechanics are, I would imagine, and a little bit of assumption there, becoming a Navy SEAL.
- Speaker #2
Oh, for sure. Oh, 100%. Yeah. That's less about... us as individuals and more of us like connecting in yeah uh commiserating like hey hey we're going through some hard things together bonds us together but then uh when we get to the teams the guys see us and they know that we've all gone through hell to get there so there's uh at least some level of respect yeah there's still a bunch of hazing and saying hey bunch of new guys but but there's also a level of respect okay yeah these guys made it through the training that they did to get here. So yeah. Great point.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And, and probably trustworthiness. Like I can, I can rely on the person next to me. And that's, you know, that's part of, particularly for men, part of initiation of old, okay. Speaking of, you know, intact earth-based cultures, um, initiation for men was deeply being initiated into the cultural realm. Um, or I would say into the realm of like, the beholders are the fathers and men. Initiation for women is a little bit different. It's driven actually more biologically than it is cultural. And so in other words, men need a cultural substrate that's bigger than them to reside in. Men, in my experience, I'm not speaking as this is fact, are more externally informed. They need that kind of cultural... holding to, to find direction to some, to some degree. It's a little bit different, um, uh, for women in my experience, in my observation. So that, that ceremony that, that native man was talking about was likely the Sundance ritual.
- Speaker #2
Um, yeah. Tell me, tell me what that, I mean, this is 30, 20 something years ago. Uh, so I, I'm sure I'm messing up the story, but yeah. Tell me what that is.
- Speaker #0
No, that's, that's, that, that feels accurate to me, except that It's, um, the way that, that I've read and observed about it is it's, um, it's typically wood or bone.
- Speaker #2
Okay. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
That is sliced through their skin. And then it's a rope. Um, I mean, I've heard people talk about it like chains and hooks and it's like, ah, it's a piece of wood and it's, it's brought to, um, it's tied to the top of a tree.
- Speaker #2
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And, um, yeah, I mean, there's so many mystery teachings in there, you know, like that I've read about of like what. What was that about? And, you know, like, who knows? I mean, it's, it, it definitely involves a blood right. Um, which are particularly important for men.
- Speaker #2
Right. So, I mean, that's, that's, uh, what we just described is clearly anecdotal. That's one particular rite of passage, but are, have you seen any, uh, kind of across the different rites of passage that you know of, or that you've participated in, or that you've helped to, uh, run? Are there any certain rituals or symbols or, I don't know, cultural things that overlap across them or not?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, particularly for men, there often is a sacred wounding, some type of sacred wound, whether in this case is the Sundance. I guided a gap year program, gosh, this is probably 12, 13 years ago. So 18, 19 year olds between high school and college, not quite sure what to do. And so they do a gap year and learn more about themselves. And we were in East Africa. And I got to spend a little bit of time with the Maasai, the Maasai people. And it was a very casual conversation, but I was like, tell me about your rites of passage. And all of them like opened up their cheek and were like, got this tooth knocked out during my rites of passage. Some of them showed. burned marks on their cheeks. And I remember just going, wow, there's, there's some type of sacred wounding that happens. Um, you know, what's that about? I don't, I mean, I could, I could go in so many different directions about, you know, what the drawing of blood for men is.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. That's a great question. Go right there. Like what, I mean, like, I feel like a lot of this, um, whether it's the seals, whether it's, uh, the sun. uh, ritual practice or something like that, like you mentioned is like almost, and, and, and bringing people into society, bringing, uh, you know, as like almost, uh, um, you know boy into manhood with other men it's almost like there's also like a a trauma bonding that goes on because you have to really go through something very deep you know like that yeah you're gonna lose a tooth you can get a scar in your chest you're gonna get whatever you know burn on your face you know just to you know become you know uh a different person if that's really what we're trying to become here but yeah what is what why does blood you know uh the wounding or the the wounding, if you will. it's blood whether it's burn whether it's like whatever i lost tooth or something like that i mean are they essential you know are these just ancient rituals that are just like you know they're fucking crazy people we need to like you know and i'm not i'm not knocking anybody i'm just trying to i'm just laughing a little bit i'm just laughing because and before you get into answering that darren um
- Speaker #2
two things one i don't know if you're if you've ever watched yellowstone the the tv show basically a little bit yeah a little bit well They all work on this ranch called the Yellowstone and they have this brand that is a Y. Oh, that's right. They brand all the, you know, the cows, the cattle. But then if you become a ranch hand, you kind of commit to being part of the brotherhood there at the Yellowstone and you get the big gigantic Y branded on your chest. And so that's another anecdote. but coming back to the SEALs, you go through the initial training and then you go through what's called SEAL qualification training. And after that, you get your trident, which is a big gold emblem that you wear on your chest. And I'm pretty sure they're not allowed to do this anymore, but this is back in 2002. Once we got our trident, we all went to a big party afterwards and some of the SEAL instructors were there and they would take us back in a room and all the instructors would line up and they would just run at us full speed, no shirt on. We have to, we're We've got the trident there and they pin it onto us, like punch us in the chest, punch us in the chest and it sticks there. And now, you know, the little prongs in the back are pinned into your chest. And then the next instructor comes up, runs across the room, punches it in the chest. And we were so excited to have that happening, which is so weird to think of. But now that you just said that, that wounding, that was the wounding that tied us all together. Yes, we had the training. But then we had the literal pinning of the trident into our chest, blood running down our chest. I mean, it was very painful. Looking back on it, it was kind of ridiculous. But at the same time, I walked out. I have this picture. I've got to find it somewhere. Will, I'll send it to you one day. Yeah, yeah, please. But I have this picture. I walked out of that room. I've got my trident pinned on my chest, and there's just... blood running down. I'm like, yeah, I'm a man now. I don't know, like 24, 25 years old. And now I'm a man because I got this thing punched in my chest. So anyway, I, sorry, I digress. But the whole point there is the, whether it's Yellowstone, whether it's Navy SEAL pinning, whether it's this sun practice, forgive me, I forgot the name of it there, but yeah, it does seem that there's some type of wounding across the, across all of them.
- Speaker #0
You know, just, I'm thinking about something now, like, I don't know if I've ever said it like this before, but a trauma is a wound without meaning.
- Speaker #1
Oh, okay. Yeah, great. That's really, wow. Okay.
- Speaker #0
Like, let's say we were, you know, the three of us were walking down the street or I was walking with one of you and we were shooting the shit and out of nowhere you turned around and clocked me in the face. It would probably be a little traumatic. I'd probably be like, whoa, you know, can I trust this guy? Can I walk down the street? Is someone just going to jump out? Block me in the face. But if we were like in a heated argument and we got in a fight, it probably wouldn't register the same. Probably wouldn't register the same. And so, you know, like going through life, we get, you know, wounds happen, breakups happen, relationships end, people pass away, whatever. Like we're riddled with wounds. but in a ritual context or in a rite of passage context it's given this weight of meaning that I think has a little bit of a different effect than a trauma. It is kind of a physical trauma, getting the badge punched into your chest, but it also had a different meaning. It had a different effect. And I think there's something in the mechanics behind rites of passage that involve those deep physical woundings that were a little bit different consequence. of binding and bonding that brought the people together. That it is like, yeah, it's a physical trauma, but not an emotional in the same way. And that's just kind of what I'm thinking about that. Yeah. And Will, you asked a question I can't remember anymore because I wasn't telling that, Brad. It's all in my head.
- Speaker #1
I can't remember. Well, yeah. Why blood? Like, what is it about? I mean, is it, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah. What is it about drawing blood? Yeah. Yeah. It's a part of a lot of these.
- Speaker #0
Sure. I mean, blood is mysterious life force that flows through us. And what happens? When that is revealed, what mystery is brought forth. And again, I've never thought of it quite like this before. But there is a mystery that contains life force in it that is hidden and then revealed. You know, there's something to that of drawing forth. And I particularly like, I don't know, maybe I'm just speaking about myself. But I think there's something like built in men that. So a lot of my lineage comes from the tracker school, Tom Brown Jr. Oh,
- Speaker #2
yeah. Yeah. A lot of SEALs go through that.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. Absolutely. He had a huge influence on the SEALs. Yeah, sure did. And he passed away a year ago, a year and two weeks ago. But I studied with him for 20, 21 years. And a lot of it has to do with tracking, which is following mystery track by track. And of course, women are drawn to tracking as well. It's not what I'm saying, but I do think that there's something in men that are drawn to follow mystery, to be informed by mystery, to wake up as, you know, the island of the world is opening at dawn and go out with our spear right into fucking mystery.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Curiosity.
- Speaker #1
Like what adventure? Like we had John Eldredge on, you know, about wild at heart. Right. Yeah. And he's like, that's one of the three pillars is adventure, right? You're drawn forward. You're going on the adventure, you know, and, and we don't know what's going to happen on adventure, but you're still drawn forward, uh, with that. So that makes a lot of sense. And what, what about like a part of, um, uh, why I have like one question, it's like, and then I have, then I have a separate question. It's like, uh, I mean, so many questions about this, obviously. Uh, um, so what are like the transformative. what are the transformative effects of something like this? Like you said, you're working with a group of 18, 19 year olds in that gap year where they're trying to figure themselves out and obviously give them themselves and you providing some direction in their lives. You know, uh, when someone goes through a rite of passage, it really takes on the practices, like really dives in, um, uh, to the practice. Like, what are some of the, uh, effects you see from, from that human being, from that. from that man, if you will, or woman, I don't know how many women you work with, that go as they move through and then get on the other side of this rite of passage.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I can tell a story that's like super fresh, a couple days old. Yeah, I just, I was just out in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont guiding a modern day vision quest, modern day rites of passage. And there's three days of preparation on the front end where we're all at a base camp camping. And then the heart of it is for four days and four nights, individuals go out and they're fasting. All they have is four gallons of water, basic shelter, tarp, sleeping bag. And then there's two days of integration on the back end. So there was a young man that went out and, you know, just has like all of the capacity to live into. Strong man, upright man, clear. compassionate, but really stuck at a point of transition, really stuck, kind of collapsed, I would say. And then about four gallons of water and a tarp and a sleeping bag. And the first day a bear came to them, a black bear. And like, I don't know, the way that he told the story. 30 feet away and he was riveted and that was enough energy to like hold him out of his um melancholy his collapsedness you know and he watched the bear for a while he he he was energized but wasn't like in terror you know he didn't try to yell and scare it off he just watched it And I told him, I said, look, you know, if an animal shows up like a bear or whatever it is, like it knows what you're up to, like ask it what it's there to teach. And it really hit him like, holy shit, like I got to. protect my edges so I can stand up for who I am. In other words, I need to be me enough that people can't just influence me left and right. And I swear this would happen. He looked to the right and he saw a dead standing tree, but it wasn't, it was probably 10 feet high. And he said, he turned into a fucking bear. tore that thing to bits like core it to bits and he was in it he wasn't acting or pretending or making theatrics like he was yelling and and and part of that anger was in contact in connection with himself in some way like like this old god that i like to call goes by the name of wait a fucking minute that we all need to call off sometime you know like hey i need to stand up for myself And he tore it to bits. I mean, drooling, snotting, yelling, growling. And there was like, it was a soft, dead standing tree, you know? And it was just shrapnel everywhere of wood. And he sat there and then he wept and he wept and he wept. And he wept till he didn't have any tears left in him. And he crossed that river of grief into courage, into love, into... piecing himself back together. And he looked at all of this, you know, torn apart tree. And he said, I'm going to make a shrine out of this. And he made, how I saw it was more of like a circular shrine mandala that he can stand in, that honored what that bear had inspired in him. to honor his own boundaries and edge, the ground that he stood on. That three, four hours of that whole process, like I am not exaggerating, that man came in different. He walked in different. Like no more were people cross my boundaries. That bear came in and it was enough 300 pounds of wildness that brought him where he needed to be. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Wow. And then going at that tree, it's like, you know, him almost like, you know, tearing down or deconstructing the old. Right. And then building it into something new. You know what I mean? It's just like, and I could see like, I mean, it's almost like, you know, if he's tearing down that tree, like it's almost seeing himself in that tree or the old self and just deconstructing. and then weeping because like it's almost like a death i mean it's almost like you're you know uh you know you're dying of an old self and then bringing yourself into the new self it's like now i'm kind of getting on the on the the path here of why rites of passage are important right it's like there there's a certain uh transformation that begins to occur and a shift that occurs in somebody's life you know psychologically physically emotionally And what you mentioned here about boundaries is so important. Instead of being manipulated by society so easily, whether it's whatever schools, coaches, social media, you know, you can really be strong, you know, like a bear in this case and just really just hold space, you know, without even saying a word. That's really powerful. So powerful.
- Speaker #0
It was so powerful. And the cool thing is just on a tangent is I would assume it was the same bear. I had 10 people out, men and women. because it all happened. Did you hire the bear,
- Speaker #1
Darren? Did you hire the fucking bear?
- Speaker #0
I did.
- Speaker #1
I was in costume actually,
- Speaker #0
man.
- Speaker #1
I'm just kidding. I'm sorry.
- Speaker #0
It was all that afternoon that encountered three people, including that young man. And it had a different message for everybody that was just as potent, which is, it was so cool. I was like, wow, that bear just like.
- Speaker #2
wove through this mountainside and greeted everybody in some way um it was cool man it was really cool yeah a couple things here so i mean that that sounds incredible and i'm sure it's really powerful um like you just mentioned today these rites of passage some of them are probably looked at as archaic something that's no longer needed what are what's your thoughts on that and then The backside follow-on question to that is, for those who do not get some type of rite of passage, what are they missing out on?
- Speaker #0
Well, you know, if I'm offering a program to like 13-year-old boys on a rite of passage, I can't go cut and putting sticks in their chest.
- Speaker #2
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I can't.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I can't do that.
- Speaker #2
They're probably going to get reported to the authorities.
- Speaker #1
Not in this country.
- Speaker #0
So, it's tricky these days, honestly, to give something that really carries some potency, that really has some gravity to it. And we're never going to go back to times of old, and I have no attempt to try to... to recreate some intact cultural thing from anthropology books. And yet, where I've gone with it is like, what we all have in common is that we all lived somewhere. We all grew up somewhere. We all stand on the ground. And it's kind of crazy these days because there's like questions of moving to another planet. There's people in positions of power that are like, get me out of here. But That to me is what we all have in common. And so that's kind of the ground of a rite of passage for me. It's like, let us once again, just like learn the ground that we stand on. Let's establish the ground that we stand on. Let us find mystery and awe and connection with where we are, whether in a city or not. There is, it's like. You know, the earth informs all of our movements. It's just so ever-present that we forget it exists, like gravity, you know? The sunrise, sunset, it informs everything. The seasons inform everything. So let us tap back into those ancient movements that inform us. So that's kind of my approach these days. And then, you know, and yet... And yet we can still provide containers or contexts or experiences that give people a doorway into themselves and into mystery and into healing and into growth. And I feel like when we don't offer that, we're stifled, particularly as men, in adolescence.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Well, what is it about that adolescence?
- Speaker #0
No matter our age, we're still there.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, and I, as I was researching for the show and, you know, we talk about all different types of things on the show about men and masculinity. And, you know, one thing that came up for me or just like, well, I mean, is this a way, you know, rites of passage to kind of keep our ego in check? Right. Which can be, you know, inflated by, especially at a younger age, like 13, 45 is like this testosterone now that we have in our body. which really can make us show up differently in the world. And is this a way that just kind of lets us know, like you mentioned, that we are part of something bigger than ourselves. We're part of an earth. We're part of this amazing earth that just creates so much humility because in a second, our life can change because of how incredibly powerful the planet is. But also, like in society, it's just like we are now... have another level of responsibility in society because of how we've changed as human beings, right? So they, we need to be seen right as this new human being, but also be on the lookout of like, Hey, like, it's not all about me. It's not all about like my desires. It's not all about, you know, going about life in just a me way. Like what about the we way, if you will, is that kind of tied into this or that's kind of the way that I've been. processing and synthesizing this as I studied, you know, to get ready for this interview.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say absolutely, you know, it is about maturing. It is about stepping into responsibility. It is keeping self-centeredness at bay. And that's another element of rites of passage of old is like it it was and still is um like a cultural insurance policy that we as a people will continue the way that we live. There are young men that know how to hunt and can return with something. Like we as a people will survive because they know. And it is in our culture. It's education system. It's, you know, all the pieces. What's missing is it doesn't carry that mythic context. It doesn't carry that explicit. This is for you to learn how to be a river for your people. But it is preparation to perpetuate. It's preparation to perpetuate the society that we have. Yeah. It also, to some degree, in my opinion, is missing some core ingredients about that it's not just about humans. It's like our actions also influence the planet that we live on. We have to become connected enough that our actions are perpetuating everything, right? It's not just us perpetuating as humans. And that's like an ingredient that's missing now in those rites of passage of getting a driver's license or going to education or a training for work. And yet it's all still there. You know, the sense of responsibility, the sense of growing up. It just, in my opinion, is missing that sense of like you're not as important as what you're being invited to participate in. which is life on a much grander scale.
- Speaker #2
So you talked about like the, if without going through the rite of passage, we're kind of trapped in this adolescence, maybe that again, maybe that was the wrong word, but for critics of rites of passage, you know, maybe there's someone who has a son, maybe they didn't go, they, the parent. didn't go through a rite of passage and they think that their son going through any type of rite of passage is a bunch of bullshit. What, what do you say to that?
- Speaker #0
How long do you want to be a parent to a 13 year old?
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Great point.
- Speaker #1
I mean,
- Speaker #0
yeah, that's a little bit of a, of a smart ass answer. Sorry.
- Speaker #2
No, no, but, but at the same time,
- Speaker #1
I'm fucking with you, man. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Um, well, what I would say is, is Find the place where it doesn't have to be land-based. It doesn't have to be a wilderness quest. It doesn't have to be any of that. It's like then create the container where their son can be given the opportunity to step into something different about themselves and their identity. You know, a big part of adolescence is it's wrought with contradiction and adventure and finding the edge. There's an elder that I came into contact. He never like really became my elder, but he said that it's stuck with me. He said, Darren, if you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much fucking room.
- Speaker #2
I love that.
- Speaker #0
It's so good. And that's, that's an adolescent stuff. Like, where is my edge? Yeah. Where is it? And I don't know about you guys, but when I was 13, 16, 17, I found that edge in ways that were like, definitely didn't bring me into like a sense of health.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. No, no, no, no, no.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Exactly. I was a bit of a destructive teen. You know what I mean? Pushing edges. I literally like fucking like, you know, walking the edge of like law, the law, you know, just doing dumb, dumb, dumb shit like deliberately or not, not, not even consciously. Just like, this is what I do because I get, I was alive. I was like, this is adventure, man. You know what I mean? This is like, you know, soap and car, like, you know, what do they call it? What's the night before Halloween, John? uh that they call it hollow's eve yeah hollow's eve but it was like this certain mischief night and we used to go out and smoke cars and shit and like you know be throwing eggs and doing all this mischievous stuff you know a mischief night and it was like it was like we looked forward to that bigger more than halloween especially when we got you know into that adolescence uh but yeah keep going like yeah i felt that i needed that yeah i needed to know what where the edge was so i could be pulled back. And, and it was like, luckily I didn't get into too much trouble, but, you know, I definitely had, I walked that edge and it was, it was fun and exciting, but it was scary when you're, you know, when someone's chasing you down the street, you know, first line that you crossed. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Sure.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And it's like, you know, adolescence is, is wrought with that kind of paradox and contradiction. It's like, we're trying to find our edge. Because we want to discover who we are, what our limits, what our capacity is. And at the same time, on the other side of the coin, we're asking, like, where do I belong? Who are my friends? Who are my people? Who shares the same values that I'm discovering about myself? Who likes to climb rocks? Who likes to skateboard? Who likes to fish? Who likes to this type of music? You know, and so there's this, like, real tension. kind of dance of like, who am I? And then where do I belong? And that's, that's all like kind of adolescent figuring out that hopefully in adulthood, it's like, Hey, I know who I am. And I know who my people are. And I know what I have to give. I know this is what I love and I'm going to do it. And there's so many men that show up to my programs that are like, man, I've spent the last 25 years doing a job that was never me, that I'd... do not like and I am burnt out and I lost my marriage and I lost my kids because of it. I'm never doing that again. I'm going to do what I love. And that's adolescent stuff. You know, that's how can I find what I love so that when I'm an adult, I can be generative to me and those people around me doing what I love. It's not easy these days. Of course it's not. But can we find the balance in there? Can we find the balance? And so that's a little bit of like adolescent eye drama kind of figuring out that can take place. Like in the story I told, that all played out in a moment with a bear. It all played out. Edge, terror, am I going to die? Am I going to live? Who am I? Where do I stand? You know, how can I turn this into something that's life-giving? Wait a second, all of this woundedness I can actually make into something beautiful here, you know? And so anyways, to go back to the question, it's like, it doesn't have to be that for parents. It could be like, how can you create the context where they can step into that sense of responsibility that carries enough
- Speaker #2
gravity and edge to it that they discover who that we discover who we are yeah what about the the flip side of that same coin so you've got different organizations saying that they have to administer a rite of passage to be a part of that organization maybe like a secret secret society or uh maybe maybe not even as complex as a secret like fraternities exactly fraternity yeah and and they call they call what they're doing a rite of passage, but sometimes it's, you know, putting a bong in somebody's mouth and having them down six beers in two minutes. And that's, that's a rite of passage. But, you know, at what point does the rite of passage truly become bullshit? Like, no, that's, that's not a rite of passage. That's like, that's a, that's a risk to that person's life. Like when does the quote unquote rite of passage become, yeah, like, like Will said, stupidity.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Or hurtful or something, right? Yeah.
- Speaker #2
Dangerous. And I think it comes down to what you said before. And maybe I'm answering my own question here. What did you say? Trauma is a wound without purpose. Maybe that's okay. When does the rite of passage become completely purposeless?
- Speaker #1
And macho in some ways. You know what I mean? Like you think about the beer and the bongs and that kind of stuff and like doing, you know, it's just almost like, hey, look how tough I am. you know, cake stands. And it's like, again, I think it's like it all literally, it's all like a massive abuse of your testosterone. I feel, you know, exactly. I might remember those days. I know I keep coming back to, I don't know, but it's like, it's like, I think as men, we need some sort of regulator and like society can be that regular regulator as we move through a rite of passage. I mean, I, uh, I'm just spewing here, but I pontific, I hope I'm making sense. Okay. I feel like I am.
- Speaker #0
I mean, there's times I think about my high school years or adolescence years and I'm like, oh my God, was I a moron?
- Speaker #2
Oh yeah.
- Speaker #0
How am I still alive? Like how did I slip out of that pickle and not get totally busted and in jail and have a totally different life, you know? Yeah.
- Speaker #2
Thank God iPhones didn't exist when I was in high school, man.
- Speaker #1
iphones and youtube and everything else i never would have made it out alive yeah we wouldn't have this show we'd just be shamed out of having the show you know that's right yeah anyway uh i think we're highlighting it all here it's like when
- Speaker #0
is it actually not life-giving and destructive to a point you know that the purpose it doesn't bring us into um a context that overall is life-giving you know
- Speaker #1
Right. And it's something useful, you know?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Or that it's our own degradation that makes us belong instead of our own courage, true courage and our own strength in a way that actually brings us into a sense of belonging.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. There's no growth there, right? They're like doing the tech stands and the bombs. Like all that other, uh, like I've done both of those and I never came out of them saying I am stronger now. I came out thinking, oh man, that was stupid.
- Speaker #1
With a hangover the next day.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So, okay. I think that could probably be the line is, is when it becomes self-destructive or destructive and, uh, and there's no growth. Uh, so. Yeah. All right.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #2
Well, what about like for, for dads? So I've got a young six-year-old little boy. I've got three kids, but my son, if I wanted to get him... through a rite of passage, how would I, as the father go about doing that? What does that look like? You know, I, if I don't want to send him to Darren Silver to do it, I want to, I want to help to bring my son into manhood myself. Uh, what would you recommend for the fathers who are listening?
- Speaker #0
Well, um, you know, it's, you got something, Will?
- Speaker #1
No, I just, I was thinking, can it be done by the father? Yeah. Because of how deep that relationship is. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or does it have to be a guide like yourself or a coach or whatever, a program or something like that?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's a little bit trickier for fathers to do it for their sons. And yet it's necessary for the father to be present and meet their children or their son with the changes that are happening. And so. I mean, the short answer is, and I say this generally as uncles, but like other men that they're surrounded with that are your friends or our friends, like that there's a team of uncles that are keeping this young lad in check in some way and deliberately holding them through this transition. If there is an intact family, it doesn't have to be intact, but let's say mom is in the picture in some capacity, that is actually spoken of and ritualized. And it can be the simplest of ways where there is a conversation between mom and son of like, I'm going to step back a little bit so that you can step into the responsibilities of your dad's world. And then there's... There's a two-hour dinner with father and son. After, mom has that. Like, hey, I'm going to step back a little bit, and I'm not going to nourish you as much because the nourishment's going to come from your father a little bit more now. I mean, there's so many things that can happen. Bringing one into a sense of belonging, if it doesn't already exist, but in a deeper way. with a sense of family lineage, a story of your dad that can look at a lot of ways or go way far back to this was our family's emblem 300 years ago. And let's explore this together. And hey, let's create a wooden box that holds all things that are important to our family here. Or, you know, like there's so many creative ways that can be very simple that. give that boy a sense of there is an open road. There's somewhere to go. Because I think a lot of teens these days, and it's not just like, I came from those two people, I'm nothing like them. But there's something deeper that's happening that's like, what is happening in the world? And I'm not following them. And all these like weird spinoffs are happening these days just to completely reject all this stuff. And so... giving them some, like, there is an open road. There is something true and beautiful about this way. Sorry if that was long winded. That, that makes sense. No,
- Speaker #2
not at all, man. Yeah, absolutely.
- Speaker #1
No, I'm with you. I'm with you. What, what is it about like one thing that, um,
- Speaker #0
uh,
- Speaker #1
about rise of passage is like being seen afterwards or being like seen differently. I've also heard stories of certain rites of passage. Like, you know, when, when the son comes back to the family, uh, he needs to be, the mother needs to be like reintroduced to her son because it's no longer the same, you know, a young man. And now it's like somebody different. Like, so like, could you take us through the, the importance of the society, like really seeing, accepting and almost congratulating, you know, this, uh, you know, a person that's gone through rite of passage, um, you know, that, that kind of adds to like, all right, I'm fucking different now or something, Yeah,
- Speaker #0
it's essential. Like it's absolutely essential to have some type of honoring of returning back from these big experiences. And, you know, in all of my my master's degree and, you know, initiation, mythology of initiation and the dirt time of doing this stuff, it's like, what are we being initiated into? Like, like what? is there to return to. It's not like the Messiah where I went through my initiation and now I can get married. It's clear. Prior to that, and if I didn't make it, no wife for me. You know, it's not that clear for us. And so it's really tricky times of like, what are we returning to? And that's why having those small communities of families, of uncles, of aunties, of, you know, to kind of welcome that back. It's so essential. And honor the responsibilities that come with it. And when I worked 10, 15 years ago for rites of passage organizations. So there would be like a sit down with the family and we would prepare the kids like, what do you think you can do now that you didn't go, that you weren't able to do before? And what responsibility are you taking on to have this quote unquote privilege? Well, I want to be able to stay out till 10 o'clock if he's a 12 year old boy. Okay, well, what's the responsibility that you have to yourself to show that and build trust with your parents? So that's part of what that looked like. There is, I have like a couple stories going on in my head. There's a mythic story that I sometimes tell, and I told it at a gathering like a year or two ago. And it's actually a Blackfoot story where this young man is sent out into the other world, you could say, into a land nobody had ever been to before and to come back with something. And they had sent so many boys to go out there and come back, and none had returned. Well, he returned and he looked so different that nobody recognized him. And literally the tribe is throwing rocks at him and shooting their arrows. Get out of here. And it's like this massive heartbreak for this young man. Like, oh my God, I'm not welcome back to my people. But when I brought back the gift, they sent me out to go get. I told this story. It was a men's gathering. It was probably 35 men, 40 men. And the elder man is just weeping. I'm telling this story and I finished this. He said, what's up? Because that was me returning from Vietnam.
- Speaker #2
Oh, wow.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. I see that. Wow.
- Speaker #0
That was me returning from Vietnam, you know? And so this coming back is like, we don't do it well. It doesn't matter what the context is. We don't do it well. Um, and I can think of like a hundred examples, um, you know, wedding ceremonies. They're beautiful. They're fun. And I would say, oh, I mean, the divorce rate is what, like 60% these days. It's like we have this grand celebration. Do we actually hold the people after we're holding you as a couple? We're here for you.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, we're seeing you. Yeah. Witnessing this event.
- Speaker #0
We got you for the long haul and the long dance. It's like, we don't do that part well. And so it's hard. It's like, I have more questions than I have answers about that. Yeah. And, you know, I'm on.
- Speaker #1
What would be a recipe for doing it well? What would be a recipe for doing it well? Coming back, you know, the reintegration. What would be a recipe like having gone through so many of these things?
- Speaker #0
Well, what I told these people that just went out with me, I said, insights, transformations, quote unquote, visions that occurred for you out in the wilderness will stay alive if you maintain your connection to the wilderness or to nature. So you find a place where you can go to once a week and make contact with the earth to keep that alive. And so it's like, do we do, does one create the context where we can keep whatever we touched alive, whatever that may be? Another one is to embrace consequence. What do you mean by that?
- Speaker #2
I know what embrace consequence means, but like in this context.
- Speaker #0
In this context, it's like you wanted this change and now you're going to go out there and the change happened. Are you willing to embrace the consequence of the change that happened for yourself? Because it will be tested. Because I can promise you that 99% of the population didn't do what you just did. They'll think you're half nuts for fasting in the woods, you know? Or the CEO I take out and he goes, and I'm not kidding. I mean, straight and narrow and cubic like as you can get going, a fucking birch tree. Talk to me. You didn't hear it, but it, but it came and goes, and I wept and wept. It made contact with something. It's like, yeah, dude, do not say that in the office place.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. You know, don't say that. Like hold that close and don't forget it. It was real. What happened? You know? You experience forgiveness in a way you never have, that you've gone to therapy for 25 years trying to get at, and it's completed. It's done. Can you embrace that? Can you embrace like most people don't want to change. They think about it. And then the change happens and they're like, what the hell? Everything that I made sense of before no longer made sense because I'm no longer experiencing it through that trauma.
- Speaker #1
Right, right. And seeing things through that lens, you know, like you've like, wow, you had a completely different experience and therefore you have a. a different worldview. I guess that's a big part of this too. It's like your worldview really begins to shift in a major way. So what you used to process, you know, prior to the experience, now how you process, you know, it has fundamentally changed, uh, like the CEO that you're talking about. And it's like, and, um, I liked that you mentioned, uh, staying in contact with that, like getting back to nature or getting back to that totem or whatever that is and make contact. Right. Yeah. That's, that's gotta be. Like it's like a practice, like, you know, I meditate every day. It's not like that's my rite of passage, but it's a reminder. It creates that reference point. It lets me know that I have peace within and I can act through a place of peace. Right. And, and all the different things that, uh, accessing my peaceful nature really begins to bring forth a more kind and more patient, you know, more agreeable. Like I listen more than I speak sometimes, you know, that kind of thing is what, what peace is. And I'm able to find more happiness. and be more content and let things kind of flow as they are. Um, you know, instead of always, uh, you know, with my selfish ego, trying to control the rest of the world in some ways, you know, or, or demands like the world like meets my needs, which is absolute total bullshit.
- Speaker #0
There was, I'll just say one thing real quick on this, on this last quest, there was a rabbi on the quest.
- Speaker #1
Okay. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I've never had that experience before. And, and I was intimidated. I was like, Like, I don't know anything about Judaism. Like, I hope I'm able to support this guy. And he came out, and I kid you not, he was a little pissed at me that change happened.
- Speaker #2
Uh-oh.
- Speaker #1
Really?
- Speaker #0
Not pissed at me, like, in a personal way, but he had an edge. Like, it fucking happened. You're telling me this is going to last?
- Speaker #1
Mm, interesting. Like,
- Speaker #0
that's our relationship with actually when change happens. It's tricky. You know, especially in a society at large that values certainty so much. It's like, wait a second. Change happened. Now what? He wasn't genuinely angry at me, but he was like, it happened. You know, he had this edge of like, you're telling me this, like, that it happened? Hear what you're saying, man. You're saying it, not me. So.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like. I guess the closest thing that I can think of is when we all lose our innocence, quote unquote, right? We look forward to that until we do. And then, yeah, there's a little part of us that celebrates, oh, yeah, I lost my virginity or whatever. And then at the same time, you're like, I can never go back. I'm changed. I can never go back. I'm not better or worse. I'm just changed. And I can never go back to that. It makes me think of that song, Return to the Innocents. But anyway, that's another squirrel hole I'm going down. But the last question I have, Darren, is Will and I met in Costa Rica. We worked together for years, but before we actually met in person, we met in Costa Rica. We were down there for a psilocybin retreat. what would you say and I don't know what your experience with any type of plant medicine or psychedelics is But what would you say psychedelics, what role can they play in a rite of passage? Yeah. If any. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. They absolutely are initiatory in the context of a rite of passage. I mean, of course, speaking about adolescence, I ate plenty of mushrooms when I was a teenager.
- Speaker #1
Walking that edge.
- Speaker #0
I walked it, man. I went to, you know, I wanted to find mystery and,
- Speaker #1
um, and,
- Speaker #0
and I can understand as an adult in a ritualized way, it's, it's very different than that. So I'm familiar with it. It's not as much been my path as an adult, but I'm certainly familiar with it in a ritual context as an adult. Um, so I, I wanna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna broaden it out and then narrow it down real quick. So, um, and I'll try to speak with brevity. So in the natural world, there's a teaching that comes from Tom Brown, the Tractor School, called baseline. And so baseline is often defined as sound and motion. in the natural world. So at sunrise, there's this mass, think about springtime, there's this massive increase in sound and motion with songbirds and movement of animals. And then it kind of, as the day warms up, it goes down and they'll get a little bit of feeding and again at sunset. Baseline is sound and motion in the natural world. And there's different, there's not only that, there's frogs at night and there's raccoons and there's when the deer move to feed and where they bed and where they... They're, um, where they seek protection. There's all these different baselines. We too, as individuals, have a baseline, you know? Um, in a city, there's a baseline. There is an increase of sound and motion. That I would, that I said in the beginning is informed by the natural baseline of the earth. But on our inside, we have our own baseline. We have a particular way that we generally feel. There are ways that we navigate the world, the lenses that we see through. And an initiatory experience is when there is an interruption in that baseline. We get a glimpse into a different way to perceive and a different place to move from within ourselves. I'm no longer moving from shame or fear. It got interrupted. And now I have a choice, just like that man with the bear. I got a choice now. I can move from a couple different places. And I would call that an interruption in the baseline. So when it comes to plant medicines, it is a dramatic interruption in our baseline. Super dramatic. It's five hours or 10 hours of like, I'm experiencing myself in the world in a very different way. Even like, you know, to some degree of like, I don't even have a self that I'm experiencing this through, you know? And so again, again, the tricky part is how do I bring this back and integrate it? How do I maintain that interruption where I have choice now of how I want to perceive or being in a relationship with myself? So it can be incredibly powerful. It is an interruption. A vision quest is an interruption as well, but it's not as like, what I say is people come back and they don't know how sensitive they've become because the duration is so gradual. But people don't realize until they hit. they get in their car and they're driving, they're like, I want to go five miles an hour down the highway. Like, wow, I actually did cheat. You know, I'm in a different baseline now. With plant medicine, it's like, wow, I definitely got blasted out. And so it absolutely is interruption in that. And again, it's the return. How do I bring this home? How do I maintain that sense of choice that I see?
- Speaker #1
Makes sense. Right on.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Last thing I'll say or ask is like, do you recommend kind of that disruption of baseline on a regular basis? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, whether it's, you know, I just was in Peru for 16 days and it is very challenging hike, like at altitudes almost 17,000 feet, you know, sleeping at 17,000 feet. And it was fucking hard. Definitely disrupted my baseline, you know, all everything, like all my biological functions. Like, it was very... humbling to my ego because i mean pretty you know can do like a lot of stuff in my body and i was like oh my god like i'm literally walking up this hill as like like a slow grandma you know one like so slow so slow but that's what it was required uh and no knock on any grandmas you know uh and uh uh yeah is it is there like a is there should we always kind of dial into that part of self where we really begin to, you know,
- Speaker #0
fuck with that baseline yeah your guys questions are are awesome thank you for these questions but both of you you're welcome yeah you know i talked about um passage equating passage and rites of passage to to movement in some way the dance partner to movement is stability and so it's like do i have enough stability that i can create movement and does my movement bring me back to stability. So it's like how much to do. It's like, wow, I created a lot of movement. Well, it's dance partner stability. Can I bring all that movement into stability, into in my life, into disciplines, to practices, that it actually influences me in the way that I live in the day-to-day. And then I want to create more movement. But there has to be the stabilizing of those experiences. For me, that's how I guide people. You know, it's like... And some of it takes years. I would guide people for years, guide my prayers like, wow, can we live? Can I live? Can we live closer to nature? And then it's like, wait a second. How well am I integrating that? Okay, I need to stabilize that and grow a garden, whatever it may be I'm making up, where, you know, where it's stabilized. And okay, I'm ready for the next engagement with radical movement. And then I'll stabilize that. And that's the actual process of change. Wow, I need to take care of myself, but I'm not going to go to the gym. It's like I keep eating, you know, going on a vision quest so I can take care of it. It's like, well, go to the fucking gym. Then do your next vision quest. You know what I mean? Cool.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. No, I feel like when you're saying that, like a cohesiveness, you know, the stability, it's like you're able to dance. So like you mentioned the partner, you're able to dance with a new partner or like or draw your partner in even deeper, you know, and have like a flow that really and a cohesiveness that kind of works for for for you and the dynamic exchange with that other partner, whether it's Earth, whether it's another dance partner, literally or something else.
- Speaker #1
Well, right on, Darren. So this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you for bearing with our questions.
- Speaker #0
No, they're great questions.
- Speaker #1
I don't know that they're all great, but. Awesome. Well, if our listeners, you know, wanted to get ahold of you or find out more about what it is you do, what's the best way for them to find you?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. My website is probably the best way. DarrenSilver.earth. Yeah. D-A-R-R-E-N.
- Speaker #2
Okay. Got heard of that.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Dot earth.
- Speaker #2
I want to fucking dot earth everything.
- Speaker #1
I think that's the first dot earth I've ever heard of.
- Speaker #2
I want a dot earth URL. God damn you, Darren. That's so cool. I would have got dot com,
- Speaker #0
but somebody else had it.
- Speaker #2
No, no, fucking dot earth.
- Speaker #1
Smart.
- Speaker #2
Really smart.
- Speaker #1
All right. Well, Darren, this has been awesome. Will, I'll turn it over to you for any last things to wrap it up.
- Speaker #2
No, just lots of thanks. It really helps me understand. uh, you know, why these are important. Um, yeah, that's it. That's all I really got. I mean, well, I want burning question is like, you know, some, some guys out there and wondering like, you know, is this right for me? What do I start? Like, is it right? I'm like, I'm like, whatever age, 48 years old, like this right of passage stuff is BS. I'll just keep going on with my prescriptive life. Uh, what do you have to say to them? Well,
- Speaker #0
just to get sensitive enough to see if they're called and, and, and what is it that they're called to, but... But the first thing that came to my mind was, I don't know how my parents let me do that. I truly don't. I'd figured out a way to get college credit for spending bigs or eight weeks backpacking through the Himalayas when I was 20. Oh,
- Speaker #1
wow.
- Speaker #2
That's awesome. Okay.
- Speaker #0
And I spent a little bit of time on the front end. And I was in this village where there was a lot of Buddhists there. And there was a monk at this small little cafe. And he said, do you want to play checkers? And I said, sure, I'll play checkers. And this is 21 years ago and we're playing checkers. And in the middle of checkers, he looks at me with, with full presence. It wasn't just the question. He like, it had some energy to it. And he looked at me, he goes, are you happy?
- Speaker #2
There you go.
- Speaker #0
And it hit me and I, and I, I brushed it off. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm happy. But it stuck with me for the next four months when I was in India. Am I happy? Do I have a sense of joy and peace and purpose in my life? And that was very much a beginning. So that's the question I would ask to those people. Are you happy with your life? Yeah.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. That's a great way to end this, you know? And if you're not, hit up Darren. you know, uh, or, or find a vision quest.
- Speaker #1
That's a lot of pressure to put on Darren.
- Speaker #2
Hey,
- Speaker #1
find Darren.
- Speaker #2
Don't fuck it up, Darren. All right.
- Speaker #1
Good shit. Good shit. Darren. Thank you, man. Will always a pleasure for our listeners. Thanks for tuning in. Yeah, definitely. Please share this, and point people Darren's way. People point people to the show. So. We appreciate you all for being here. Until next time, take care, everyone.
- Speaker #2
Bye-bye. Thank you, Darren. Thank you, everybody.
- Speaker #0
See you, fellas.
- Speaker #3
Thank you for joining us today. We hope you walk away with some new tools and insights to guide you on your life journey. New episodes are being published every week, so please join us again for some meaningful discussion. For more information, please check out mentalkingmindfulness.com.
