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The great interviews of the SACEM museum with Stéphane Lerouge at the Cannes 2025 festival
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Les grands entretiens du musée de la Sacem, avec Stéphane Lerouge.
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At the Cannes Festival 2025, the SACEM music lesson celebrated a iconic composer-singer-composer pair, he French Alexandre Desplat and the Mexican Guillermo del Toro. Their meeting in 2017 is a friendly and professional blow, welded by the outstanding success of La Forme de l'eau, a humanist fable that deserves the composer his second Oscar. It will then be an original rereading of Pinocchio, treated as a musical tale, treated as a musical tale, and in 2025, a very lyrical Frankenstein where the monster is less the creature than its creator. And which connects them to each other, a taste and a culture shared for the heritage of film music, for its great masters, whether they are French, Italian or Hollywood.
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Guillermo del Toro also opens this first podcast by telling how, a 70's teenager in Mexico, he became a fan and compulsive collector of original films, at the time a unique way to prolong the pleasure of the film, beyond the film.
I adore movie music. I think it's an art form that... I love movie music and I love illustration in part for the same reason. Because some people say, well, illustration is not art or movie music is incomplete without the image.
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illustration is not art or movie music is incomplete without the image and it's not true and if you listen to movie music you evoke when i was a kid you didn't have videos you didn't have the movie for 16 20 years and
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And it's not true. And if you listen to movie music, you evoke... When I was a kid, you didn't have videos, you didn't have the movie for 6, 10, 20 years. And the only way you could visit that movie again was to close your eyes in a dark room and listen to the LP.
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the only way you could do visit that movie again was to close your eyes in a dark room and listen to the lp so that's what i did and most of my records are still movie music and
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So that's what I did, and most of my records are still movie music. And I think that there's a coincidence,
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I think that there's a coincidence many musicians that I admire,
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many musicians that I admire,
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Alexander,
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Alexander,
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John Williams,
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John Williams,
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Jerry Fielding,
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Jerry Fielding,
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Quincy Jones,
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Quincy Jones,
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come from jazz because
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come from jazz because
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I think the modern notion of a score is to riff with the images,
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I think the modern notion of a score is to riff. With the images, for me.
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for me.
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You have to not be the sole author.
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You have to not be the sole author.
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You have to be nimble and you have to pick up where the sax leaves.
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You have to be nimble and you have to pick up where the sax leaves. You can pick up with the drums.
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You can't pick up with the drums. And with Alexander,
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And with Alexander is where... I have worked with many composers,
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I have worked with many composers,
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but only Alexander looks like a composer.
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but only Alexander looks like a composer. When you see him come in,
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When you see him come in, it's like,
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it's like,
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that's a composer,
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that's a composer,
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motherfucker.
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motherfucker! But also the thing is,
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But also the thing is, when we started talking,
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when we started talking, and you see it with birth,
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and you see it with birth,
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I think the first part of the composition is the camera.
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I think the first part of the composition is the camera.
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That's the first note of music.
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That's the first note of music.
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And Alexander,
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And Alexander,
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I sent him dailies,
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I sent him dailies,
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I sent him early assemblies from the beginning.
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I sent him early assemblies. From the beginning, I edited the film silent.
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I edit the film silent,
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Because
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because
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I don't want to fall in love with a temp.
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I don't want to fall in love with a temp.
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A temp track.
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A temp track.
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Not at all.
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Not at all.
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Alexander starts talking to me about the camera.
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Alexander starts talking to me about the camera.
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When we were doing Shape of Water,
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When we were doing Shape of Water,
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he said,
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he said, there. I have to,
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I have to,
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the camera moves like a wave,
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the camera moves like a wave.
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we have to capture this feeling because the movie is trying to talk,
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We have to capture this feeling. Because the movie is trying to talk,
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it's already moving,
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it's already moving,
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but it's trying to talk,
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but it's trying to talk.
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and then the voice comes with the music and the composition starts with that.
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And then the voice comes with the music, and the composition starts with that. For me,
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For me,
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if I'm ever buried in public,
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if I'm ever buried in public,
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I want a
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I want a
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L'Amépris playing in the background.
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L'Amépris playing in the background.
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But we really have that in common.
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But we really have that in common.
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I always use the wrong terms musically.
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I always use the wrong terms musically. I say staccato,
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I say staccato, ostinato.
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ostinato.
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Largo,
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Largo,
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larghetto.
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larghetto.
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But it's like being with a master,
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But, you know, it's like being with a master,
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not only of his craft,
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not only... of his craft,
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but of communicating his craft.
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of communicating his craft.
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When preparing for the meeting,
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During the preparation of the meeting, I asked Guillermo to reveal to us his original founding band,
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I asked Guillermo to reveal to us his original founding band,
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the one with which,
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the one with which,
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for him, everything started.
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for him, everything started.
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The melding of those two artists,
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The melding of those two artists,
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I think the secret,
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I think the secret of course,
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of course, Spielberg has a huge DNA of music from his mother.
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Spielberg has a huge DNA of music from his mother.
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And the secret collaboration is that I think he films like a composer,
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And the secret collaboration is that I think he films like a... composer and John Williams composes like a director and it's such a beautiful melding.
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and John Williams composes like a director. And it's such a beautiful melding.
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When I was a kid
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When I was a kid,
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I had noticed scores before Planet of the Apes was so noticeable for me but this was the first time when
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I had noticed scores before, Planet of the Apes. It was so noticeable for me, but this was the first time where I felt as a kid in the cinema that there was one thing.
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where I felt as a kid in the cinema that there were one thing.
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And I think
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And I think
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Alexander is not a composer,
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Alexander is not a composer,
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he's a filmmaker.
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he's a filmmaker.
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You know,
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You know,
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we mailed,
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we mailed,
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you know,
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you know,
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yesterday we were looking at a scene on Frankenstein,
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yesterday we were looking at a scene on Frankenstein and he said,
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he said, I like the gloves.
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I like the gloves. And I go,
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And I go, yes,
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yes,
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you'll see why.
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you'll see why.
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But he notices everything,
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But he notices everything.
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like you see the opening of Birth.
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Like, if you see the opening of Birth,
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I think Jonathan Glaser is as close as we are to a Kubrick alive,
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I think Jonathan Glaser is as close as we are to a Kubrick alive. and the height of the camera and the width of the lens is what allows him to breathe that score.
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and the height of the camera and the width of the lens is what allows him to breathe that score.
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If it was a longer lens or the camera was lower so the musicality of the camera has to be common to us.
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If it was a longer lens or the camera was lower, so the musicality of the camera has to be common to us.
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You
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You remember when we started to discuss that Cannes talk,
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remember when we started to discuss that can talk, you said to me film music composers
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you said to me, film music composers impress me a lot.
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Impress me a lot.
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Yes.
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Yes,
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so Alexander impresses you.
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So Alexandre impresses you.
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Oh,
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Oh yeah,
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yeah When I first met him
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when I first met him,
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I took him to a really extent expensive sushi and pitch him shape of water
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I took him to a... really expensive sushi and pitch in shape of water. I said,
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Said we're eating fish and I want to pitch you a movie
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we're eating fish and I want to pitch you a movie.
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Now we started with the rise of the Guardians.
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We started with Rise of the Guardians.
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Yeah, and and
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And I am a huge fan.
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I am a huge fan
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We had talked before on the phone when you won your first Oscar,
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We have talked before on the phone when you won your first Oscar and I wanted to congratulate him and I said
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and I wanted to congratulate him, and I said, I'm a big admirer,
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I'm a big admirer and I was and I was hoping one day to work with him.
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and I was. And I was hoping one day to work with him.
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But why does a film music composer impress you more than a set designer or cinematographer?
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But why does a film music composer impress you more than a set designer or a cinematographer?
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The things I cannot do impress me the most.
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The things I cannot do impress me the most. The things where I can meddle a lot,
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The things where I can meddle a lot, I'm a very bad boss.
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I'm a very bad boss. I go
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I go, no, no, no, no, no.
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With Alexander,
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with Alexander...
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we talk about emotions.
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We talk about emotions.
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Before Alexander,
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Before Alexander,
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I never went to recording sessions.
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I never went to recording sessions.
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Because,
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Because remember,
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remember, I come from independent,
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I come from independent,
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independent,
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independent, independent cinema.
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independent cinema. And we had to choose between paying for two more violins or my airplane tickets.
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And we had to choose between paying for two more violins or my airplane tickets. And I said,
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And I said,
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get two more violinists.
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get two more violinists, what am I going to say?
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What am I going to say? And Alexander was the first composer.
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And Alexander was the first composer to say,
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I said,
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no,
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no, no,
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no,
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no,
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no,
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no, you're coming.
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you're coming. And you're going to talk to me in emotional terms and say what you feel.
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And you're going to talk to me in emotional terms and say what you feel.
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And you will,
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and I cannot not have you in the...
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I cannot not have you. And it was the first scoring session that I actually...
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and it was the first scoring session that I actually...
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You attended.
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You attended.
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The whole complete.
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The whole complete. I would visit one day or two and go shopping when they were the bigger movies.
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I would visit one day or two and go shopping. When they were the bigger movies.
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And with Alexander,
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And with Alexander,
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I finally realized how the dialogue continued there.
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I finally realized how the dialogue continued there.
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piano plays in bright rhythm
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Alexander,
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Alexandre,
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I just wanted to ask you,
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I just wanted to ask you,
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do you remember your founding impression in front of the film The Shape of Water?
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do you remember your founding impression in front of the film, The Shape of Water?
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Very well.
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Very well. In Los Angeles,
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In Los Angeles you showed it to me and I said exactly what you just remember,
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you showed it to me, and I said exactly what you just remembered,
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that...
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that the camera was flawless.
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the camera was flawless,
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Never stopped.
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never stopped.
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And that was magical for music because it is a musical movement that never has anything in the way.
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And that was magical for music because it is a musical movement that never has anything in the way.
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And we discussed about water and waves.
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And we discussed about what, and waves and we started talking about instrumentation.
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and we started talking about instrumentation.
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I said,
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I said,
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we could do something crazy,
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we could do something crazy, have like 12 flutes or something.
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have like 12 flutes or something.
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And it ended like that.
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And it ended like that.
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Sometimes you have crazy ideas and they're bad,
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Sometimes you have crazy ideas and they're bad and they go away after a moment.
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and they go away after a moment. But this one stayed,
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But this one stayed and we recorded with 12 flutes,
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and we recorded with 12 flutes, which creates a strange texture of sound.
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which creates a strange texture of sound.
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And with the experience now,
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And with the experience now,
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when
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when
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I see a film for the first time that I'm being offered,
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I see a film for the first time that I'm being offered
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I know if it's a great film or not,
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I know if it's a great film or not,
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unfortunately.
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unfortunately.
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But it happens quick also.
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But it happens quick also, that what you want to find...
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What you want to find...
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Look,
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Look,
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you ask why
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you ask why
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I meddle in production design from the beginning,
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I meddle in production design from the beginning,
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even before anyone comes on board with music,
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even before. anyone comes on board with music,
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it's the only time in making a movie where I am surprised.
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is the only time in making a movie where I am surprised.
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It's the only time.
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It's the only time.
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At the recording session you become a spectator of your own movie.
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At the recording session, you become a spectator of your own movie.
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Well, yes,
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Yes,
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because I'm cooking for everyone,
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because I'm cooking for everyone. all day long,
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all day long, every day,
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every day, you know?
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you know?
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And when I come in,
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And when I come in,
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Alexander has a table.
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Alexander has a table.
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And I go,
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And
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nom, nom, nom,
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I go,
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nom,
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nom
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nom. And it's amazing that I'm receiving and you find the final character of the film.
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And it's amazing that I'm receiving, and you find the final character of the film.
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I think the older you get as a filmmaker,
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I think the older you get as a filmmaker,
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the more you understand that the movie talks to you.
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the more you understand that the movie talks to you. You shut up and listen.
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You shut up and listen. And that's what you do with composing.
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And that's what you do with composing.
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The form of water is built around two main characters,
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The form of water is built around two main characters,
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an
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an
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Amazonian aquatic creature and an American housewife,
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Amazonian aquatic creature and an American housewife, Eliza,
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both of them mute.
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both mute.
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Was the mission of the music precisely to reveal their feelings,
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The mission of music was precisely to reveal their feelings.
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to make them speak?
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Yes, of course, I'm the voice of the silent characters. You know, it's important to understand that when we are in the same room together, There's no frontier. We just, ah,
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Ah, we could try that.
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we could try that. Maybe not.
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Maybe not.
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Let's try this.
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Let's try this. Oh,
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Oh, yes.
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yes. Let's try.
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Let's try. You know,
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You know,
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it's a real exchange of artistic ideas.
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it's a real exchange of artistic ideas.
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That's also part of my role here,
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That's also part of my role here,
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to be able to hear and respond,
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to be able to hear and respond,
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you know,
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you know,
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to a duet of artistic ideas.
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to a duet of artistic ideas.
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But you sometimes disagree,
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But you sometimes disagree,
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I suppose.
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I suppose.
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Yes,
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Yes,
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we do.
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we do.
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Yeah,
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Yeah,
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yeah,
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yeah,
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but that's the beauty of it.
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but that's the beauty of it. I mean,
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I mean, when two people agree,
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when two people agree,
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one should leave.
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one should leave. You know,
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You know? I mean,
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I mean... The other thing with Shape of Water is I knew I wanted to make a Vincente Minelli musical.
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the other thing with Shape of Water is I knew I wanted to make a Vincente Minelli musical.
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And I was going to shoot a musical that was not a musical.
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And I was going to shoot a musical that was not a musical. So the camera moves were very Minelli or very Donnan.
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So the camera moves were very Minelli or very Donnan.
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They were continuous.
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They were continuous. It looked like she was going to break on a song.
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It looked like she was going to break on a song.
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And I knew that we would build to her finally getting up from the table and singing to the creature.
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And I knew that we would build to her. Finally, getting up from the table and singing to the creature,
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So the score had to have that flair because it needed to feel like a musical in a strange way.
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so the score had to have that flair because it needed to feel like a musical in a strange way.
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And just to complete,
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And just to complete, when I watch the film and I start working on it,
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when I watch the film and I start working on it,
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I become another actor in the film.
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I become another actor in the film.
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And the more I go,
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And the more I go,
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the more I work,
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the more I work, I'm living with images.
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I'm living with images.
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and I'm really living into the film.
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And I'm really living into the film.
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I try to be inside the film,
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I try to be inside the film,
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to be with the actors and with the camera moves and let my role disappear completely,
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to be with the actors, and with the camera moves, and be... that my role disappears completely, that I'm not a person,
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that I'm not a person,
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I'm inside,
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I'm inside,
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inside the film.
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inside the film.
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How to create a musical idea?
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Facing an image, how do you create a musical idea?
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In front of an image, how to create a musical idea?
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Does it start with a melodic phrase,
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Does it start with a melodic phrase,
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a harmonic trame,
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a harmonic trame, a rhythm,
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a rhythm,
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a timbre idea or an alias of timbres?
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a timbre idea or an alias of timbres?
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At that stage the melodies are already on the board, I have all the themes that I want to use. I know the orchestration, which is something I try to disrupt.
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decided early on.
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decided early on. So we know we have an orchestra.
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So we know we have an orchestra. We know we have these 12 flutes.
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We know we have these 12 flutes.
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We know we have these keyboards and vibraphone and electric piano and harp.
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We know we have these keyboards and vibraphone and electric piano and harp.
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Whistle.
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Whistle.
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And whistle because there's a scene where we see,
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And whistle because there's a scene where we see
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Eliza whistling,
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Eliza whistling,
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waiting for the bus.
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waiting for the bus.
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And we had this idea at my studio,
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And we had this idea in my studio thing.
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thinking maybe she's whistling,
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Maybe she's whistling.
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maybe she could whistle.
- Speaker #9
Maybe she could whistle.
- Speaker #6
Maybe the theme could be whistled.
- Speaker #9
Maybe the theme could be whistled.
- Speaker #6
That became the main theme,
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That became the main theme,
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whistled.
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whistled.
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Was it difficult to find a good whistler?
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Was it difficult to find a good whistler?
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We found the best in England.
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We found the best in England.
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The world champion.
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World champion.
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The world champion whistling.
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World champion whistling.
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And it was so good that we didn't use him.
- Speaker #4
And it was so good that we didn't use him.
- Speaker #5
And
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And Alexander did it.
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Alexander did it.
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Because he could do...
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Because he could do...
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It was like a virtuoso.
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It was like a virtuoso.
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No,
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No,
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it really whistled like a virtuoso.
- Speaker #6
it really sounded like a virtuoso.
- Speaker #9
But as for emotion and expressivo,
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But as for emotion and expressivo,
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it didn't work.
- Speaker #6
it didn't work.
- Speaker #9
I don't know,
- Speaker #6
I don't know,
- Speaker #9
it was strange.
- Speaker #6
it was strange.
- Speaker #9
So being a flautist,
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so being a flautist I was
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I whistled.
- Speaker #7
Could you prove it?
- Speaker #8
Could you prove it?
- Speaker #6
Yes.
- Speaker #8
Yes.
- Speaker #7
Right now?
- Speaker #8
Right now,
- Speaker #9
go ahead.
- Speaker #6
Go ahead.
- Speaker #9
No.
- Speaker #6
No.
- Speaker #9
The beginning is like this.
- Speaker #6
The beginning is like this.
- Speaker #5
Bravo!
- Speaker #9
Bravo!
- Speaker #6
It's very simple.
- Speaker #9
It's simple.
- Speaker #6
It's easy,
- Speaker #9
It's easy,
- Speaker #6
film music.
- Speaker #9
film music.
- Speaker #3
We can also wonder what is the connection between a situation and the image,
- Speaker #2
We can also ask ourselves what is the connection between a situation in the image and the precise choice of a tone.
- Speaker #3
and the precise choice of a tone.
- Speaker #2
Is it linked to colour, to light?
- Speaker #6
Is it related to colour?
- Speaker #9
Yes, it's all that all together. The range of the instrument that I'm going to use,
- Speaker #6
To light?
- Speaker #9
because some instruments go too high or too low or don't have the right tone in that register.
- Speaker #6
because some instruments go too high or too low or don't have the right tone in that register. But,
- Speaker #9
But yeah,
- Speaker #6
yeah,
- Speaker #9
for example,
- Speaker #6
for example, if I would play this in another key than B flat,
- Speaker #9
if I would play this in... another key than Bb,
- Speaker #6
which is the one I played,
- Speaker #9
which the one I played, it would be just,
- Speaker #6
it would be just,
- Speaker #9
I don't know,
- Speaker #6
I don't know,
- Speaker #9
it would not vibrate.
- Speaker #6
it would not vibrate.
- Speaker #9
And that's always the thing I'm looking for,
- Speaker #6
And that's always the thing I'm looking for,
- Speaker #9
this vibration.
- Speaker #6
this vibration. And that's the beginning of the melody.
- Speaker #9
And that's the beginning of the melody.
- Speaker #6
But then it goes into the...
- Speaker #9
But then it goes into the big tutti.
- Speaker #6
the big tutti.
- Speaker #9
And there it has to be in a key where the instruments really will sound very well.
- Speaker #6
And there it has to be in a key where the instruments really will sound very well.
- Speaker #9
So it's all connected to the way you build the composition itself also.
- Speaker #6
So it's all connected. to the way you build the composition itself also. But yes,
- Speaker #9
But yes,
- Speaker #6
for example,
- Speaker #9
for example,
- Speaker #6
we were talking about birth in D major.
- Speaker #9
we were talking about birth in D major.
- Speaker #6
It's a very bright key full of light,
- Speaker #9
It's a very bright key full of light and it was just perfect to that moment.
- Speaker #6
and it was just perfect to that moment. And sometimes I use keys which are difficult for musicians because there are many flats or many sharps,
- Speaker #9
And sometimes I use keys which are difficult for musicians because there are many flats or many sharps.
- Speaker #6
but they're just right to the image because of the...
- Speaker #9
They're just right to the image because of the tone of the color,
- Speaker #6
The tone of the color,
- Speaker #9
I don't know,
- Speaker #6
I don't know,
- Speaker #9
the light,
- Speaker #6
the light, the voice of the actress,
- Speaker #9
the voice of the actress, or I don't know,
- Speaker #6
or I don't know,
- Speaker #9
whatever it is.
- Speaker #6
whatever it is.
- Speaker #5
The thing is to not disagree on that.
- Speaker #4
The thing is to not disagree on that. That's where we don't disagree.
- Speaker #5
That's where we don't disagree.
- Speaker #4
There's never a moment where I say,
- Speaker #5
There's never a moment where I say,
- Speaker #4
you know,
- Speaker #5
you know,
- Speaker #4
help here.
- Speaker #5
help here. Music should not help.
- Speaker #4
Music should not help. Music should make the scene be the scene.
- Speaker #5
Music should make the scene be the scene. And we hear it,
- Speaker #4
And we hear it,
- Speaker #5
like two days ago we were hearing a piece of Frankenstein and we changed the key,
- Speaker #4
like two days ago we were hearing a piece of Frankenstein and we changed the key,
- Speaker #5
or he changed the key.
- Speaker #4
or he changed the key. And we went,
- Speaker #5
And we went,
- Speaker #4
no,
- Speaker #5
no,
- Speaker #4
this is now too romantic or too heroic.
- Speaker #5
this is now too romantic or too heroic.
- Speaker #4
Because the emotion changes.
- Speaker #5
Because the emotion changes.
- Speaker #7
But I remember you told me that you used a temp track for The Shape of Water.
- Speaker #8
But I remember you told me that you used a temp track for... or the shape of water.
- Speaker #4
I hate the temps.
- Speaker #5
I hate the temps. I use the temp when I show it to the studio,
- Speaker #4
I use the temp when I show it to the studio and when we start showing it to an audience.
- Speaker #5
and when we start showing it to an audience.
- Speaker #4
So it comes involved in a process that I don't necessarily like.
- Speaker #5
So it comes involved in a process that I don't necessarily like.
- Speaker #4
I try never to fall in love with it.
- Speaker #5
I try never to fall in love with it. It's always something that works for a...
- Speaker #4
It's always something that works for a few seconds and then stops working for another few seconds.
- Speaker #5
A few seconds and then stops working for another few seconds. And if you marry that piece,
- Speaker #4
And if you marry that piece,
- Speaker #5
you marry the mistake as much as you marry the quality.
- Speaker #4
you marry the mistake as much as you marry the quality. And it's a horrible thing to do.
- Speaker #5
And it's a horrible thing to do.
- Speaker #9
It's the problem with temp music.
- Speaker #6
It's the problem with temp music because it becomes something vertical.
- Speaker #9
because it becomes something vertical. And as I've been playing before,
- Speaker #6
And as I've been playing before,
- Speaker #9
music is something horizontal.
- Speaker #6
music is something horizontal that goes from the beginning of the film to the end of the film,
- Speaker #9
It goes from the beginning of the film to the end of the film, like a river that flows with the film like this,
- Speaker #6
like a river that flows with the film like this,
- Speaker #9
you know,
- Speaker #6
you know,
- Speaker #9
from left to right and left to right for you.
- Speaker #6
from left to right. And left to right for you.
- Speaker #9
And if you don't understand that,
- Speaker #6
And if you don't understand that, you can't write good film music.
- Speaker #9
you can't write good film music.
- Speaker #6
You have to understand that there's a flow and the music has to flow.
- Speaker #9
You have to understand that there's a flow and the music has to flow.
- Speaker #6
You should just hit moments,
- Speaker #9
If you just hit moments,
- Speaker #6
you know,
- Speaker #9
you know,
- Speaker #6
vertically.
- Speaker #9
vertically.
- Speaker #5
We saw it in two clips.
- Speaker #4
We saw it in two clips.
- Speaker #5
We saw it in the Jaws clip when he cuts to the wide and there's an impasse in the music.
- Speaker #4
In the Jaws clip, when he cuts to the wide and there's an impasse in the music, I'm sure it's not the right term,
- Speaker #5
I'm sure it's not the right term.
- Speaker #4
but in Shape of Water,
- Speaker #5
And in Shape of Water,
- Speaker #4
you can decide to end the score when she runs out of the theater,
- Speaker #5
you can decide to end the score when she runs out of the theater.
- Speaker #4
but instead it peaks because her emotion is pure melodrama.
- Speaker #5
But instead it peaks. because her emotion is pure melodrama.
- Speaker #4
It's Douglas Sirk,
- Speaker #5
It's Douglas Sirk, it's Vinelli.
- Speaker #4
it's Vinelli,
- Speaker #5
And that's the decision you make.
- Speaker #4
and that's the decision you make. I remember Alexander the other day said,
- Speaker #5
Alexander the other day said, I said,
- Speaker #4
I said,
- Speaker #5
what if we finish here?
- Speaker #4
what if we finish here?
- Speaker #5
And he says,
- Speaker #4
And he says,
- Speaker #5
we haven't,
- Speaker #4
we're not done.
- Speaker #5
we're not done. We still have to go here.
- Speaker #4
We still have to go here.
- Speaker #5
And I go,
- Speaker #4
And I go, that's right.
- Speaker #5
that's right.
- Speaker #4
So he talks like a storyteller,
- Speaker #5
So he talks like a storyteller, not a musician.
- Speaker #4
not a musician.