Leçon de musique : Alexandre Desplat et Guillermo del Toro - épisode 1 | Musique de film : une histoire d'inspiration

Description

Au Festival de Cannes 2025, la Leçon de musique Sacem célébrait un binôme compositeur-cinéaste emblématique, le français Alexandre Desplat et le mexicain Guillermo del Toro.
A l'occasion de la sortie de Frankenstein, troisième acte de leur aventure partagée, retrouvez cette rencontre, animée par Stéphane Lerouge. Ils nous racontent comment la musique doit trouver des équivalences à des matières comme l'eau (The Shape of water) ou le bois (Pinocchio), comment elle doit révéler la part d'humanité des monstres, fil rouge du cinéma selon del Toro.

Leur rencontre, en 2017, c'est un coup de foudre amical et professionnel, soudé par l'éclatante réussite de La Forme de l'eau, fable humaniste qui vaut au compositeur son second Oscar. Ce sera ensuite une relecture originale de Pinocchio, traité en conte musical, et, en 2025, un Frankenstein très lyrique, où le monstre est moins la créature que son créateur.

Et puis, il y autre paramètre qui les relie l'un à l'autre : un goût et une culture partagée pour le patrimoine de la musique de flm, pour ses grands maîtres qu'ils soient français, italiens ou hollywoodiens. Guillermo del Toro ouvre d'ailleurs ce premier podcast en racontant comment, adolescent des années 70 à Mexico, il est devenu est un fan et collectionneur compulsif de bandes originales, à l'époque unique moyen de prolonger le plaisir du flm... par-delà le flm.

Lors de la préparation de la rencontre, j'ai demandé à Guillermo de nous révéler sa bande originale fondatrice, celle avec laquelle, pour lui, tout a commencé. La Forme de l'eau est construit autour de deux personnages principaux, une créature aquatique amazonienne et une femme de ménage, Elisa, tous deux muets.

La mission de la musique était-elle justement de révéler leurs sentiments, de les faire parler ? Face à une image, comment se forge une idée musicale ? Cela commence-t-il par une phrase mélodique, une trame harmonique, un rythme, une idée de timbre ou d'alliage de timbres ?

On peut aussi se demander quelle est la connnection entre une situation à l'image et le choix précis d'une tonalité ?

Par Stéphane Lerouge

Crédits musicaux :

Le Mépris (Ouverture) - Musique composée et dirigée par Georges Delerue, Editions Sido Music

Jaws (Les Dents de la mer) - Musique composée et dirigée par John Williams, Editions Universal Music Publishing France

Five stars general, That isn't good, Elisa's theme, The Shape of water : Extraits de The Shape of water (La Forme de l'eau) - Musique composée et dirigée par Alexandre Desplat, Editions Galiléa Music / Solrey Music

Hébergé par Ausha. Visitez ausha.co/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Transcription

Speaker #0
The great interviews of the SACEM museum with Stéphane Lerouge at the Cannes 2025 festival
Speaker #1
Les grands entretiens du musée de la Sacem, avec Stéphane Lerouge.
Speaker #2
At the Cannes Festival 2025, the SACEM music lesson celebrated a iconic composer-singer-composer pair, he French Alexandre Desplat and the Mexican Guillermo del Toro. Their meeting in 2017 is a friendly and professional blow, welded by the outstanding success of La Forme de l'eau, a humanist fable that deserves the composer his second Oscar. It will then be an original rereading of Pinocchio, treated as a musical tale, treated as a musical tale, and in 2025, a very lyrical Frankenstein where the monster is less the creature than its creator. And which connects them to each other, a taste and a culture shared for the heritage of film music, for its great masters, whether they are French, Italian or Hollywood.
Speaker #3
Guillermo del Toro also opens this first podcast by telling how, a 70's teenager in Mexico, he became a fan and compulsive collector of original films, at the time a unique way to prolong the pleasure of the film, beyond the film. I adore movie music. I think it's an art form that... I love movie music and I love illustration in part for the same reason. Because some people say, well, illustration is not art or movie music is incomplete without the image.
Speaker #5
illustration is not art or movie music is incomplete without the image and it's not true and if you listen to movie music you evoke when i was a kid you didn't have videos you didn't have the movie for 16 20 years and
Speaker #4
And it's not true. And if you listen to movie music, you evoke... When I was a kid, you didn't have videos, you didn't have the movie for 6, 10, 20 years. And the only way you could visit that movie again was to close your eyes in a dark room and listen to the LP.
Speaker #5
the only way you could do visit that movie again was to close your eyes in a dark room and listen to the lp so that's what i did and most of my records are still movie music and
Speaker #4
So that's what I did, and most of my records are still movie music. And I think that there's a coincidence,
Speaker #5
I think that there's a coincidence many musicians that I admire,
Speaker #4
many musicians that I admire,
Speaker #5
Alexander,
Speaker #4
Alexander,
Speaker #5
John Williams,
Speaker #4
John Williams,
Speaker #5
Jerry Fielding,
Speaker #4
Jerry Fielding,
Speaker #5
Quincy Jones,
Speaker #4
Quincy Jones,
Speaker #5
come from jazz because
Speaker #4
come from jazz because
Speaker #5
I think the modern notion of a score is to riff with the images,
Speaker #4
I think the modern notion of a score is to riff. With the images, for me.
Speaker #5
for me.
Speaker #4
You have to not be the sole author.
Speaker #5
You have to not be the sole author.
Speaker #4
You have to be nimble and you have to pick up where the sax leaves.
Speaker #5
You have to be nimble and you have to pick up where the sax leaves. You can pick up with the drums.
Speaker #4
You can't pick up with the drums. And with Alexander,
Speaker #5
And with Alexander is where... I have worked with many composers,
Speaker #4
I have worked with many composers,
Speaker #5
but only Alexander looks like a composer.
Speaker #4
but only Alexander looks like a composer. When you see him come in,
Speaker #5
When you see him come in, it's like,
Speaker #4
it's like,
Speaker #6
that's a composer,
Speaker #4
that's a composer,
Speaker #6
motherfucker.
Speaker #4
motherfucker! But also the thing is,
Speaker #5
But also the thing is, when we started talking,
Speaker #4
when we started talking, and you see it with birth,
Speaker #5
and you see it with birth,
Speaker #4
I think the first part of the composition is the camera.
Speaker #5
I think the first part of the composition is the camera.
Speaker #4
That's the first note of music.
Speaker #5
That's the first note of music.
Speaker #4
And Alexander,
Speaker #5
And Alexander,
Speaker #4
I sent him dailies,
Speaker #5
I sent him dailies,
Speaker #4
I sent him early assemblies from the beginning.
Speaker #5
I sent him early assemblies. From the beginning, I edited the film silent.
Speaker #4
I edit the film silent,
Speaker #5
Because
Speaker #4
because
Speaker #5
I don't want to fall in love with a temp.
Speaker #4
I don't want to fall in love with a temp.
Speaker #5
A temp track.
Speaker #4
A temp track.
Speaker #5
Not at all.
Speaker #4
Not at all.
Speaker #5
Alexander starts talking to me about the camera.
Speaker #4
Alexander starts talking to me about the camera.
Speaker #5
When we were doing Shape of Water,
Speaker #4
When we were doing Shape of Water,
Speaker #5
he said,
Speaker #4
he said, there. I have to,
Speaker #5
I have to,
Speaker #4
the camera moves like a wave,
Speaker #5
the camera moves like a wave.
Speaker #4
we have to capture this feeling because the movie is trying to talk,
Speaker #5
We have to capture this feeling. Because the movie is trying to talk,
Speaker #4
it's already moving,
Speaker #5
it's already moving,
Speaker #4
but it's trying to talk,
Speaker #5
but it's trying to talk.
Speaker #4
and then the voice comes with the music and the composition starts with that.
Speaker #5
And then the voice comes with the music, and the composition starts with that. For me,
Speaker #4
For me,
Speaker #5
if I'm ever buried in public,
Speaker #4
if I'm ever buried in public,
Speaker #5
I want a
Speaker #4
I want a
Speaker #5
L'Amépris playing in the background.
Speaker #4
L'Amépris playing in the background.
Speaker #5
But we really have that in common.
Speaker #4
But we really have that in common.
Speaker #5
I always use the wrong terms musically.
Speaker #4
I always use the wrong terms musically. I say staccato,
Speaker #5
I say staccato, ostinato.
Speaker #4
ostinato.
Speaker #5
Largo,
Speaker #4
Largo,
Speaker #5
larghetto.
Speaker #4
larghetto.
Speaker #5
But it's like being with a master,
Speaker #4
But, you know, it's like being with a master,
Speaker #5
not only of his craft,
Speaker #4
not only... of his craft,
Speaker #5
but of communicating his craft.
Speaker #4
of communicating his craft.
Speaker #3
When preparing for the meeting,
Speaker #2
During the preparation of the meeting, I asked Guillermo to reveal to us his original founding band,
Speaker #3
I asked Guillermo to reveal to us his original founding band,
Speaker #2
the one with which,
Speaker #3
the one with which,
Speaker #2
for him, everything started.
Speaker #3
for him, everything started.
Speaker #5
The melding of those two artists,
Speaker #4
The melding of those two artists,
Speaker #5
I think the secret,
Speaker #4
I think the secret of course,
Speaker #5
of course, Spielberg has a huge DNA of music from his mother.
Speaker #4
Spielberg has a huge DNA of music from his mother.
Speaker #5
And the secret collaboration is that I think he films like a composer,
Speaker #4
And the secret collaboration is that I think he films like a... composer and John Williams composes like a director and it's such a beautiful melding.
Speaker #5
and John Williams composes like a director. And it's such a beautiful melding.
Speaker #4
When I was a kid
Speaker #5
When I was a kid,
Speaker #4
I had noticed scores before Planet of the Apes was so noticeable for me but this was the first time when
Speaker #5
I had noticed scores before, Planet of the Apes. It was so noticeable for me, but this was the first time where I felt as a kid in the cinema that there was one thing.
Speaker #4
where I felt as a kid in the cinema that there were one thing.
Speaker #5
And I think
Speaker #4
And I think
Speaker #5
Alexander is not a composer,
Speaker #4
Alexander is not a composer,
Speaker #5
he's a filmmaker.
Speaker #4
he's a filmmaker.
Speaker #5
You know,
Speaker #4
You know,
Speaker #5
we mailed,
Speaker #4
we mailed,
Speaker #5
you know,
Speaker #4
you know,
Speaker #5
yesterday we were looking at a scene on Frankenstein,
Speaker #4
yesterday we were looking at a scene on Frankenstein and he said,
Speaker #5
he said, I like the gloves.
Speaker #4
I like the gloves. And I go,
Speaker #5
And I go, yes,
Speaker #4
yes,
Speaker #5
you'll see why.
Speaker #4
you'll see why.
Speaker #5
But he notices everything,
Speaker #4
But he notices everything.
Speaker #5
like you see the opening of Birth.
Speaker #4
Like, if you see the opening of Birth,
Speaker #5
I think Jonathan Glaser is as close as we are to a Kubrick alive,
Speaker #4
I think Jonathan Glaser is as close as we are to a Kubrick alive. and the height of the camera and the width of the lens is what allows him to breathe that score.
Speaker #5
and the height of the camera and the width of the lens is what allows him to breathe that score.
Speaker #4
If it was a longer lens or the camera was lower so the musicality of the camera has to be common to us.
Speaker #5
If it was a longer lens or the camera was lower, so the musicality of the camera has to be common to us.
Speaker #7
You
Speaker #8
You remember when we started to discuss that Cannes talk,
Speaker #7
remember when we started to discuss that can talk, you said to me film music composers
Speaker #8
you said to me, film music composers impress me a lot.
Speaker #7
Impress me a lot.
Speaker #4
Yes.
Speaker #5
Yes,
Speaker #7
so Alexander impresses you.
Speaker #8
So Alexandre impresses you.
Speaker #5
Oh,
Speaker #4
Oh yeah,
Speaker #5
yeah When I first met him
Speaker #4
when I first met him,
Speaker #5
I took him to a really extent expensive sushi and pitch him shape of water
Speaker #4
I took him to a... really expensive sushi and pitch in shape of water. I said,
Speaker #5
Said we're eating fish and I want to pitch you a movie
Speaker #4
we're eating fish and I want to pitch you a movie.
Speaker #5
Now we started with the rise of the Guardians.
Speaker #4
We started with Rise of the Guardians.
Speaker #5
Yeah, and and
Speaker #4
And I am a huge fan.
Speaker #5
I am a huge fan
Speaker #4
We had talked before on the phone when you won your first Oscar,
Speaker #5
We have talked before on the phone when you won your first Oscar and I wanted to congratulate him and I said
Speaker #4
and I wanted to congratulate him, and I said, I'm a big admirer,
Speaker #5
I'm a big admirer and I was and I was hoping one day to work with him.
Speaker #4
and I was. And I was hoping one day to work with him.
Speaker #7
But why does a film music composer impress you more than a set designer or cinematographer?
Speaker #8
But why does a film music composer impress you more than a set designer or a cinematographer?
Speaker #4
The things I cannot do impress me the most.
Speaker #5
The things I cannot do impress me the most. The things where I can meddle a lot,
Speaker #4
The things where I can meddle a lot, I'm a very bad boss.
Speaker #5
I'm a very bad boss. I go
Speaker #4
I go, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker #5
With Alexander,
Speaker #4
with Alexander...
Speaker #5
we talk about emotions.
Speaker #4
We talk about emotions.
Speaker #5
Before Alexander,
Speaker #4
Before Alexander,
Speaker #5
I never went to recording sessions.
Speaker #4
I never went to recording sessions.
Speaker #5
Because,
Speaker #4
Because remember,
Speaker #5
remember, I come from independent,
Speaker #4
I come from independent,
Speaker #5
independent,
Speaker #4
independent, independent cinema.
Speaker #5
independent cinema. And we had to choose between paying for two more violins or my airplane tickets.
Speaker #4
And we had to choose between paying for two more violins or my airplane tickets. And I said,
Speaker #5
And I said,
Speaker #4
get two more violinists.
Speaker #5
get two more violinists, what am I going to say?
Speaker #4
What am I going to say? And Alexander was the first composer.
Speaker #5
And Alexander was the first composer to say,
Speaker #4
I said,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
no, no,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
no,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
no, you're coming.
Speaker #5
you're coming. And you're going to talk to me in emotional terms and say what you feel.
Speaker #4
And you're going to talk to me in emotional terms and say what you feel.
Speaker #5
And you will,
Speaker #4
and I cannot not have you in the...
Speaker #5
I cannot not have you. And it was the first scoring session that I actually...
Speaker #4
and it was the first scoring session that I actually...
Speaker #8
You attended.
Speaker #7
You attended.
Speaker #5
The whole complete.
Speaker #4
The whole complete. I would visit one day or two and go shopping when they were the bigger movies.
Speaker #5
I would visit one day or two and go shopping. When they were the bigger movies.
Speaker #4
And with Alexander,
Speaker #5
And with Alexander,
Speaker #4
I finally realized how the dialogue continued there.
Speaker #5
I finally realized how the dialogue continued there.
Speaker #4
piano plays in bright rhythm
Speaker #7
Alexander,
Speaker #8
Alexandre,
Speaker #7
I just wanted to ask you,
Speaker #8
I just wanted to ask you,
Speaker #7
do you remember your founding impression in front of the film The Shape of Water?
Speaker #8
do you remember your founding impression in front of the film, The Shape of Water?
Speaker #9
Very well.
Speaker #6
Very well. In Los Angeles,
Speaker #9
In Los Angeles you showed it to me and I said exactly what you just remember,
Speaker #6
you showed it to me, and I said exactly what you just remembered,
Speaker #9
that...
Speaker #6
that the camera was flawless.
Speaker #9
the camera was flawless,
Speaker #6
Never stopped.
Speaker #9
never stopped.
Speaker #6
And that was magical for music because it is a musical movement that never has anything in the way.
Speaker #9
And that was magical for music because it is a musical movement that never has anything in the way.
Speaker #6
And we discussed about water and waves.
Speaker #9
And we discussed about what, and waves and we started talking about instrumentation.
Speaker #6
and we started talking about instrumentation.
Speaker #9
I said,
Speaker #6
I said,
Speaker #9
we could do something crazy,
Speaker #6
we could do something crazy, have like 12 flutes or something.
Speaker #9
have like 12 flutes or something.
Speaker #6
And it ended like that.
Speaker #9
And it ended like that.
Speaker #6
Sometimes you have crazy ideas and they're bad,
Speaker #9
Sometimes you have crazy ideas and they're bad and they go away after a moment.
Speaker #6
and they go away after a moment. But this one stayed,
Speaker #9
But this one stayed and we recorded with 12 flutes,
Speaker #6
and we recorded with 12 flutes, which creates a strange texture of sound.
Speaker #9
which creates a strange texture of sound.
Speaker #6
And with the experience now,
Speaker #9
And with the experience now,
Speaker #6
when
Speaker #9
when
Speaker #6
I see a film for the first time that I'm being offered,
Speaker #9
I see a film for the first time that I'm being offered
Speaker #6
I know if it's a great film or not,
Speaker #9
I know if it's a great film or not,
Speaker #6
unfortunately.
Speaker #9
unfortunately.
Speaker #4
But it happens quick also.
Speaker #5
But it happens quick also, that what you want to find...
Speaker #4
What you want to find...
Speaker #5
Look,
Speaker #4
Look,
Speaker #5
you ask why
Speaker #4
you ask why
Speaker #5
I meddle in production design from the beginning,
Speaker #4
I meddle in production design from the beginning,
Speaker #5
even before anyone comes on board with music,
Speaker #4
even before. anyone comes on board with music,
Speaker #5
it's the only time in making a movie where I am surprised.
Speaker #4
is the only time in making a movie where I am surprised.
Speaker #5
It's the only time.
Speaker #4
It's the only time.
Speaker #7
At the recording session you become a spectator of your own movie.
Speaker #8
At the recording session, you become a spectator of your own movie.
Speaker #5
Well, yes,
Speaker #4
Yes,
Speaker #5
because I'm cooking for everyone,
Speaker #4
because I'm cooking for everyone. all day long,
Speaker #5
all day long, every day,
Speaker #4
every day, you know?
Speaker #5
you know?
Speaker #4
And when I come in,
Speaker #5
And when I come in,
Speaker #4
Alexander has a table.
Speaker #5
Alexander has a table.
Speaker #4
And I go,
Speaker #5
And
Speaker #4
nom, nom, nom,
Speaker #5
I go,
Speaker #4
nom,
Speaker #5
nom
Speaker #4
nom. And it's amazing that I'm receiving and you find the final character of the film.
Speaker #5
And it's amazing that I'm receiving, and you find the final character of the film.
Speaker #4
I think the older you get as a filmmaker,
Speaker #5
I think the older you get as a filmmaker,
Speaker #4
the more you understand that the movie talks to you.
Speaker #5
the more you understand that the movie talks to you. You shut up and listen.
Speaker #4
You shut up and listen. And that's what you do with composing.
Speaker #5
And that's what you do with composing.
Speaker #3
The form of water is built around two main characters,
Speaker #2
The form of water is built around two main characters,
Speaker #3
an
Speaker #2
an
Speaker #3
Amazonian aquatic creature and an American housewife,
Speaker #2
Amazonian aquatic creature and an American housewife, Eliza,
Speaker #3
both of them mute.
Speaker #2
both mute.
Speaker #3
Was the mission of the music precisely to reveal their feelings,
Speaker #2
The mission of music was precisely to reveal their feelings.
Speaker #3
to make them speak?
Speaker #6
Yes, of course, I'm the voice of the silent characters. You know, it's important to understand that when we are in the same room together, There's no frontier. We just, ah,
Speaker #9
Ah, we could try that.
Speaker #6
we could try that. Maybe not.
Speaker #9
Maybe not.
Speaker #6
Let's try this.
Speaker #9
Let's try this. Oh,
Speaker #6
Oh, yes.
Speaker #9
yes. Let's try.
Speaker #6
Let's try. You know,
Speaker #9
You know,
Speaker #6
it's a real exchange of artistic ideas.
Speaker #9
it's a real exchange of artistic ideas.
Speaker #6
That's also part of my role here,
Speaker #9
That's also part of my role here,
Speaker #6
to be able to hear and respond,
Speaker #9
to be able to hear and respond,
Speaker #6
you know,
Speaker #9
you know,
Speaker #6
to a duet of artistic ideas.
Speaker #9
to a duet of artistic ideas.
Speaker #7
But you sometimes disagree,
Speaker #8
But you sometimes disagree,
Speaker #7
I suppose.
Speaker #8
I suppose.
Speaker #6
Yes,
Speaker #9
Yes,
Speaker #6
we do.
Speaker #9
we do.
Speaker #5
Yeah,
Speaker #4
Yeah,
Speaker #5
yeah,
Speaker #4
yeah,
Speaker #5
but that's the beauty of it.
Speaker #4
but that's the beauty of it. I mean,
Speaker #5
I mean, when two people agree,
Speaker #4
when two people agree,
Speaker #5
one should leave.
Speaker #4
one should leave. You know,
Speaker #5
You know? I mean,
Speaker #4
I mean... The other thing with Shape of Water is I knew I wanted to make a Vincente Minelli musical.
Speaker #5
the other thing with Shape of Water is I knew I wanted to make a Vincente Minelli musical.
Speaker #4
And I was going to shoot a musical that was not a musical.
Speaker #5
And I was going to shoot a musical that was not a musical. So the camera moves were very Minelli or very Donnan.
Speaker #4
So the camera moves were very Minelli or very Donnan.
Speaker #5
They were continuous.
Speaker #4
They were continuous. It looked like she was going to break on a song.
Speaker #5
It looked like she was going to break on a song.
Speaker #4
And I knew that we would build to her finally getting up from the table and singing to the creature.
Speaker #5
And I knew that we would build to her. Finally, getting up from the table and singing to the creature,
Speaker #4
So the score had to have that flair because it needed to feel like a musical in a strange way.
Speaker #5
so the score had to have that flair because it needed to feel like a musical in a strange way.
Speaker #9
And just to complete,
Speaker #6
And just to complete, when I watch the film and I start working on it,
Speaker #9
when I watch the film and I start working on it,
Speaker #6
I become another actor in the film.
Speaker #9
I become another actor in the film.
Speaker #6
And the more I go,
Speaker #9
And the more I go,
Speaker #6
the more I work,
Speaker #9
the more I work, I'm living with images.
Speaker #6
I'm living with images.
Speaker #9
and I'm really living into the film.
Speaker #6
And I'm really living into the film.
Speaker #9
I try to be inside the film,
Speaker #6
I try to be inside the film,
Speaker #9
to be with the actors and with the camera moves and let my role disappear completely,
Speaker #6
to be with the actors, and with the camera moves, and be... that my role disappears completely, that I'm not a person,
Speaker #9
that I'm not a person,
Speaker #6
I'm inside,
Speaker #9
I'm inside,
Speaker #6
inside the film.
Speaker #9
inside the film.
Speaker #2
How to create a musical idea?
Speaker #3
Facing an image, how do you create a musical idea?
Speaker #2
In front of an image, how to create a musical idea?
Speaker #3
Does it start with a melodic phrase,
Speaker #2
Does it start with a melodic phrase,
Speaker #3
a harmonic trame,
Speaker #2
a harmonic trame, a rhythm,
Speaker #3
a rhythm,
Speaker #2
a timbre idea or an alias of timbres?
Speaker #6
a timbre idea or an alias of timbres?
Speaker #9
At that stage the melodies are already on the board, I have all the themes that I want to use. I know the orchestration, which is something I try to disrupt.
Speaker #6
decided early on.
Speaker #9
decided early on. So we know we have an orchestra.
Speaker #6
So we know we have an orchestra. We know we have these 12 flutes.
Speaker #9
We know we have these 12 flutes.
Speaker #6
We know we have these keyboards and vibraphone and electric piano and harp.
Speaker #9
We know we have these keyboards and vibraphone and electric piano and harp.
Speaker #7
Whistle.
Speaker #8
Whistle.
Speaker #6
And whistle because there's a scene where we see,
Speaker #9
And whistle because there's a scene where we see
Speaker #6
Eliza whistling,
Speaker #9
Eliza whistling,
Speaker #6
waiting for the bus.
Speaker #9
waiting for the bus.
Speaker #6
And we had this idea at my studio,
Speaker #9
And we had this idea in my studio thing.
Speaker #6
thinking maybe she's whistling,
Speaker #9
Maybe she's whistling.
Speaker #6
maybe she could whistle.
Speaker #9
Maybe she could whistle.
Speaker #6
Maybe the theme could be whistled.
Speaker #9
Maybe the theme could be whistled.
Speaker #6
That became the main theme,
Speaker #9
That became the main theme,
Speaker #6
whistled.
Speaker #9
whistled.
Speaker #8
Was it difficult to find a good whistler?
Speaker #7
Was it difficult to find a good whistler?
Speaker #5
We found the best in England.
Speaker #4
We found the best in England.
Speaker #5
The world champion.
Speaker #4
World champion.
Speaker #5
The world champion whistling.
Speaker #4
World champion whistling.
Speaker #5
And it was so good that we didn't use him.
Speaker #4
And it was so good that we didn't use him.
Speaker #5
And
Speaker #4
And Alexander did it.
Speaker #5
Alexander did it.
Speaker #6
Because he could do...
Speaker #9
Because he could do...
Speaker #4
It was like a virtuoso.
Speaker #5
It was like a virtuoso.
Speaker #9
No,
Speaker #6
No,
Speaker #9
it really whistled like a virtuoso.
Speaker #6
it really sounded like a virtuoso.
Speaker #9
But as for emotion and expressivo,
Speaker #6
But as for emotion and expressivo,
Speaker #9
it didn't work.
Speaker #6
it didn't work.
Speaker #9
I don't know,
Speaker #6
I don't know,
Speaker #9
it was strange.
Speaker #6
it was strange.
Speaker #9
So being a flautist,
Speaker #6
so being a flautist I was
Speaker #9
I whistled.
Speaker #7
Could you prove it?
Speaker #8
Could you prove it?
Speaker #6
Yes.
Speaker #8
Yes.
Speaker #7
Right now?
Speaker #8
Right now,
Speaker #9
go ahead.
Speaker #6
Go ahead.
Speaker #9
No.
Speaker #6
No.
Speaker #9
The beginning is like this.
Speaker #6
The beginning is like this.
Speaker #5
Bravo!
Speaker #9
Bravo!
Speaker #6
It's very simple.
Speaker #9
It's simple.
Speaker #6
It's easy,
Speaker #9
It's easy,
Speaker #6
film music.
Speaker #9
film music.
Speaker #3
We can also wonder what is the connection between a situation and the image,
Speaker #2
We can also ask ourselves what is the connection between a situation in the image and the precise choice of a tone.
Speaker #3
and the precise choice of a tone.
Speaker #2
Is it linked to colour, to light?
Speaker #6
Is it related to colour?
Speaker #9
Yes, it's all that all together. The range of the instrument that I'm going to use,
Speaker #6
To light?
Speaker #9
because some instruments go too high or too low or don't have the right tone in that register.
Speaker #6
because some instruments go too high or too low or don't have the right tone in that register. But,
Speaker #9
But yeah,
Speaker #6
yeah,
Speaker #9
for example,
Speaker #6
for example, if I would play this in another key than B flat,
Speaker #9
if I would play this in... another key than Bb,
Speaker #6
which is the one I played,
Speaker #9
which the one I played, it would be just,
Speaker #6
it would be just,
Speaker #9
I don't know,
Speaker #6
I don't know,
Speaker #9
it would not vibrate.
Speaker #6
it would not vibrate.
Speaker #9
And that's always the thing I'm looking for,
Speaker #6
And that's always the thing I'm looking for,
Speaker #9
this vibration.
Speaker #6
this vibration. And that's the beginning of the melody.
Speaker #9
And that's the beginning of the melody.
Speaker #6
But then it goes into the...
Speaker #9
But then it goes into the big tutti.
Speaker #6
the big tutti.
Speaker #9
And there it has to be in a key where the instruments really will sound very well.
Speaker #6
And there it has to be in a key where the instruments really will sound very well.
Speaker #9
So it's all connected to the way you build the composition itself also.
Speaker #6
So it's all connected. to the way you build the composition itself also. But yes,
Speaker #9
But yes,
Speaker #6
for example,
Speaker #9
for example,
Speaker #6
we were talking about birth in D major.
Speaker #9
we were talking about birth in D major.
Speaker #6
It's a very bright key full of light,
Speaker #9
It's a very bright key full of light and it was just perfect to that moment.
Speaker #6
and it was just perfect to that moment. And sometimes I use keys which are difficult for musicians because there are many flats or many sharps,
Speaker #9
And sometimes I use keys which are difficult for musicians because there are many flats or many sharps.
Speaker #6
but they're just right to the image because of the...
Speaker #9
They're just right to the image because of the tone of the color,
Speaker #6
The tone of the color,
Speaker #9
I don't know,
Speaker #6
I don't know,
Speaker #9
the light,
Speaker #6
the light, the voice of the actress,
Speaker #9
the voice of the actress, or I don't know,
Speaker #6
or I don't know,
Speaker #9
whatever it is.
Speaker #6
whatever it is.
Speaker #5
The thing is to not disagree on that.
Speaker #4
The thing is to not disagree on that. That's where we don't disagree.
Speaker #5
That's where we don't disagree.
Speaker #4
There's never a moment where I say,
Speaker #5
There's never a moment where I say,
Speaker #4
you know,
Speaker #5
you know,
Speaker #4
help here.
Speaker #5
help here. Music should not help.
Speaker #4
Music should not help. Music should make the scene be the scene.
Speaker #5
Music should make the scene be the scene. And we hear it,
Speaker #4
And we hear it,
Speaker #5
like two days ago we were hearing a piece of Frankenstein and we changed the key,
Speaker #4
like two days ago we were hearing a piece of Frankenstein and we changed the key,
Speaker #5
or he changed the key.
Speaker #4
or he changed the key. And we went,
Speaker #5
And we went,
Speaker #4
no,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
this is now too romantic or too heroic.
Speaker #5
this is now too romantic or too heroic.
Speaker #4
Because the emotion changes.
Speaker #5
Because the emotion changes.
Speaker #7
But I remember you told me that you used a temp track for The Shape of Water.
Speaker #8
But I remember you told me that you used a temp track for... or the shape of water.
Speaker #4
I hate the temps.
Speaker #5
I hate the temps. I use the temp when I show it to the studio,
Speaker #4
I use the temp when I show it to the studio and when we start showing it to an audience.
Speaker #5
and when we start showing it to an audience.
Speaker #4
So it comes involved in a process that I don't necessarily like.
Speaker #5
So it comes involved in a process that I don't necessarily like.
Speaker #4
I try never to fall in love with it.
Speaker #5
I try never to fall in love with it. It's always something that works for a...
Speaker #4
It's always something that works for a few seconds and then stops working for another few seconds.
Speaker #5
A few seconds and then stops working for another few seconds. And if you marry that piece,
Speaker #4
And if you marry that piece,
Speaker #5
you marry the mistake as much as you marry the quality.
Speaker #4
you marry the mistake as much as you marry the quality. And it's a horrible thing to do.
Speaker #5
And it's a horrible thing to do.
Speaker #9
It's the problem with temp music.
Speaker #6
It's the problem with temp music because it becomes something vertical.
Speaker #9
because it becomes something vertical. And as I've been playing before,
Speaker #6
And as I've been playing before,
Speaker #9
music is something horizontal.
Speaker #6
music is something horizontal that goes from the beginning of the film to the end of the film,
Speaker #9
It goes from the beginning of the film to the end of the film, like a river that flows with the film like this,
Speaker #6
like a river that flows with the film like this,
Speaker #9
you know,
Speaker #6
you know,
Speaker #9
from left to right and left to right for you.
Speaker #6
from left to right. And left to right for you.
Speaker #9
And if you don't understand that,
Speaker #6
And if you don't understand that, you can't write good film music.
Speaker #9
you can't write good film music.
Speaker #6
You have to understand that there's a flow and the music has to flow.
Speaker #9
You have to understand that there's a flow and the music has to flow.
Speaker #6
You should just hit moments,
Speaker #9
If you just hit moments,
Speaker #6
you know,
Speaker #9
you know,
Speaker #6
vertically.
Speaker #9
vertically.
Speaker #5
We saw it in two clips.
Speaker #4
We saw it in two clips.
Speaker #5
We saw it in the Jaws clip when he cuts to the wide and there's an impasse in the music.
Speaker #4
In the Jaws clip, when he cuts to the wide and there's an impasse in the music, I'm sure it's not the right term,
Speaker #5
I'm sure it's not the right term.
Speaker #4
but in Shape of Water,
Speaker #5
And in Shape of Water,
Speaker #4
you can decide to end the score when she runs out of the theater,
Speaker #5
you can decide to end the score when she runs out of the theater.
Speaker #4
but instead it peaks because her emotion is pure melodrama.
Speaker #5
But instead it peaks. because her emotion is pure melodrama.
Speaker #4
It's Douglas Sirk,
Speaker #5
It's Douglas Sirk, it's Vinelli.
Speaker #4
it's Vinelli,
Speaker #5
And that's the decision you make.
Speaker #4
and that's the decision you make. I remember Alexander the other day said,
Speaker #5
Alexander the other day said, I said,
Speaker #4
I said,
Speaker #5
what if we finish here?
Speaker #4
what if we finish here?
Speaker #5
And he says,
Speaker #4
And he says,
Speaker #5
we haven't,
Speaker #4
we're not done.
Speaker #5
we're not done. We still have to go here.
Speaker #4
We still have to go here.
Speaker #5
And I go,
Speaker #4
And I go, that's right.
Speaker #5
that's right.
Speaker #4
So he talks like a storyteller,
Speaker #5
So he talks like a storyteller, not a musician.
Speaker #4
not a musician.

Chapters

Introduction et présentation des intervenants
9sec
La rencontre entre Alexandre Desplat et Guillermo del Toro
19sec
L'importance de la musique dans le cinéma
44sec
Les souvenirs de Guillermo del Toro sur la musique de film
1min
La musique comme voix des personnages muets
1min
La collaboration créative entre réalisateur et compositeur
3min
Les influences musicales et le processus de création
4min
Analyse des thèmes musicaux dans La Forme de l'eau
6min
L'impact émotionnel de la musique au cinéma
8min
Comment créer une idée musicale devant une image
15min

Description

On peut aussi se demander quelle est la connnection entre une situation à l'image et le choix précis d'une tonalité ?

Par Stéphane Lerouge

Crédits musicaux :

Le Mépris (Ouverture) - Musique composée et dirigée par Georges Delerue, Editions Sido Music

Jaws (Les Dents de la mer) - Musique composée et dirigée par John Williams, Editions Universal Music Publishing France

Hébergé par Ausha. Visitez ausha.co/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Transcription

Speaker #0
The great interviews of the SACEM museum with Stéphane Lerouge at the Cannes 2025 festival
Speaker #1
Les grands entretiens du musée de la Sacem, avec Stéphane Lerouge.
Speaker #2
At the Cannes Festival 2025, the SACEM music lesson celebrated a iconic composer-singer-composer pair, he French Alexandre Desplat and the Mexican Guillermo del Toro. Their meeting in 2017 is a friendly and professional blow, welded by the outstanding success of La Forme de l'eau, a humanist fable that deserves the composer his second Oscar. It will then be an original rereading of Pinocchio, treated as a musical tale, treated as a musical tale, and in 2025, a very lyrical Frankenstein where the monster is less the creature than its creator. And which connects them to each other, a taste and a culture shared for the heritage of film music, for its great masters, whether they are French, Italian or Hollywood.
Speaker #3
Guillermo del Toro also opens this first podcast by telling how, a 70's teenager in Mexico, he became a fan and compulsive collector of original films, at the time a unique way to prolong the pleasure of the film, beyond the film. I adore movie music. I think it's an art form that... I love movie music and I love illustration in part for the same reason. Because some people say, well, illustration is not art or movie music is incomplete without the image.
Speaker #5
illustration is not art or movie music is incomplete without the image and it's not true and if you listen to movie music you evoke when i was a kid you didn't have videos you didn't have the movie for 16 20 years and
Speaker #4
And it's not true. And if you listen to movie music, you evoke... When I was a kid, you didn't have videos, you didn't have the movie for 6, 10, 20 years. And the only way you could visit that movie again was to close your eyes in a dark room and listen to the LP.
Speaker #5
the only way you could do visit that movie again was to close your eyes in a dark room and listen to the lp so that's what i did and most of my records are still movie music and
Speaker #4
So that's what I did, and most of my records are still movie music. And I think that there's a coincidence,
Speaker #5
I think that there's a coincidence many musicians that I admire,
Speaker #4
many musicians that I admire,
Speaker #5
Alexander,
Speaker #4
Alexander,
Speaker #5
John Williams,
Speaker #4
John Williams,
Speaker #5
Jerry Fielding,
Speaker #4
Jerry Fielding,
Speaker #5
Quincy Jones,
Speaker #4
Quincy Jones,
Speaker #5
come from jazz because
Speaker #4
come from jazz because
Speaker #5
I think the modern notion of a score is to riff with the images,
Speaker #4
I think the modern notion of a score is to riff. With the images, for me.
Speaker #5
for me.
Speaker #4
You have to not be the sole author.
Speaker #5
You have to not be the sole author.
Speaker #4
You have to be nimble and you have to pick up where the sax leaves.
Speaker #5
You have to be nimble and you have to pick up where the sax leaves. You can pick up with the drums.
Speaker #4
You can't pick up with the drums. And with Alexander,
Speaker #5
And with Alexander is where... I have worked with many composers,
Speaker #4
I have worked with many composers,
Speaker #5
but only Alexander looks like a composer.
Speaker #4
but only Alexander looks like a composer. When you see him come in,
Speaker #5
When you see him come in, it's like,
Speaker #4
it's like,
Speaker #6
that's a composer,
Speaker #4
that's a composer,
Speaker #6
motherfucker.
Speaker #4
motherfucker! But also the thing is,
Speaker #5
But also the thing is, when we started talking,
Speaker #4
when we started talking, and you see it with birth,
Speaker #5
and you see it with birth,
Speaker #4
I think the first part of the composition is the camera.
Speaker #5
I think the first part of the composition is the camera.
Speaker #4
That's the first note of music.
Speaker #5
That's the first note of music.
Speaker #4
And Alexander,
Speaker #5
And Alexander,
Speaker #4
I sent him dailies,
Speaker #5
I sent him dailies,
Speaker #4
I sent him early assemblies from the beginning.
Speaker #5
I sent him early assemblies. From the beginning, I edited the film silent.
Speaker #4
I edit the film silent,
Speaker #5
Because
Speaker #4
because
Speaker #5
I don't want to fall in love with a temp.
Speaker #4
I don't want to fall in love with a temp.
Speaker #5
A temp track.
Speaker #4
A temp track.
Speaker #5
Not at all.
Speaker #4
Not at all.
Speaker #5
Alexander starts talking to me about the camera.
Speaker #4
Alexander starts talking to me about the camera.
Speaker #5
When we were doing Shape of Water,
Speaker #4
When we were doing Shape of Water,
Speaker #5
he said,
Speaker #4
he said, there. I have to,
Speaker #5
I have to,
Speaker #4
the camera moves like a wave,
Speaker #5
the camera moves like a wave.
Speaker #4
we have to capture this feeling because the movie is trying to talk,
Speaker #5
We have to capture this feeling. Because the movie is trying to talk,
Speaker #4
it's already moving,
Speaker #5
it's already moving,
Speaker #4
but it's trying to talk,
Speaker #5
but it's trying to talk.
Speaker #4
and then the voice comes with the music and the composition starts with that.
Speaker #5
And then the voice comes with the music, and the composition starts with that. For me,
Speaker #4
For me,
Speaker #5
if I'm ever buried in public,
Speaker #4
if I'm ever buried in public,
Speaker #5
I want a
Speaker #4
I want a
Speaker #5
L'Amépris playing in the background.
Speaker #4
L'Amépris playing in the background.
Speaker #5
But we really have that in common.
Speaker #4
But we really have that in common.
Speaker #5
I always use the wrong terms musically.
Speaker #4
I always use the wrong terms musically. I say staccato,
Speaker #5
I say staccato, ostinato.
Speaker #4
ostinato.
Speaker #5
Largo,
Speaker #4
Largo,
Speaker #5
larghetto.
Speaker #4
larghetto.
Speaker #5
But it's like being with a master,
Speaker #4
But, you know, it's like being with a master,
Speaker #5
not only of his craft,
Speaker #4
not only... of his craft,
Speaker #5
but of communicating his craft.
Speaker #4
of communicating his craft.
Speaker #3
When preparing for the meeting,
Speaker #2
During the preparation of the meeting, I asked Guillermo to reveal to us his original founding band,
Speaker #3
I asked Guillermo to reveal to us his original founding band,
Speaker #2
the one with which,
Speaker #3
the one with which,
Speaker #2
for him, everything started.
Speaker #3
for him, everything started.
Speaker #5
The melding of those two artists,
Speaker #4
The melding of those two artists,
Speaker #5
I think the secret,
Speaker #4
I think the secret of course,
Speaker #5
of course, Spielberg has a huge DNA of music from his mother.
Speaker #4
Spielberg has a huge DNA of music from his mother.
Speaker #5
And the secret collaboration is that I think he films like a composer,
Speaker #4
And the secret collaboration is that I think he films like a... composer and John Williams composes like a director and it's such a beautiful melding.
Speaker #5
and John Williams composes like a director. And it's such a beautiful melding.
Speaker #4
When I was a kid
Speaker #5
When I was a kid,
Speaker #4
I had noticed scores before Planet of the Apes was so noticeable for me but this was the first time when
Speaker #5
I had noticed scores before, Planet of the Apes. It was so noticeable for me, but this was the first time where I felt as a kid in the cinema that there was one thing.
Speaker #4
where I felt as a kid in the cinema that there were one thing.
Speaker #5
And I think
Speaker #4
And I think
Speaker #5
Alexander is not a composer,
Speaker #4
Alexander is not a composer,
Speaker #5
he's a filmmaker.
Speaker #4
he's a filmmaker.
Speaker #5
You know,
Speaker #4
You know,
Speaker #5
we mailed,
Speaker #4
we mailed,
Speaker #5
you know,
Speaker #4
you know,
Speaker #5
yesterday we were looking at a scene on Frankenstein,
Speaker #4
yesterday we were looking at a scene on Frankenstein and he said,
Speaker #5
he said, I like the gloves.
Speaker #4
I like the gloves. And I go,
Speaker #5
And I go, yes,
Speaker #4
yes,
Speaker #5
you'll see why.
Speaker #4
you'll see why.
Speaker #5
But he notices everything,
Speaker #4
But he notices everything.
Speaker #5
like you see the opening of Birth.
Speaker #4
Like, if you see the opening of Birth,
Speaker #5
I think Jonathan Glaser is as close as we are to a Kubrick alive,
Speaker #4
I think Jonathan Glaser is as close as we are to a Kubrick alive. and the height of the camera and the width of the lens is what allows him to breathe that score.
Speaker #5
and the height of the camera and the width of the lens is what allows him to breathe that score.
Speaker #4
If it was a longer lens or the camera was lower so the musicality of the camera has to be common to us.
Speaker #5
If it was a longer lens or the camera was lower, so the musicality of the camera has to be common to us.
Speaker #7
You
Speaker #8
You remember when we started to discuss that Cannes talk,
Speaker #7
remember when we started to discuss that can talk, you said to me film music composers
Speaker #8
you said to me, film music composers impress me a lot.
Speaker #7
Impress me a lot.
Speaker #4
Yes.
Speaker #5
Yes,
Speaker #7
so Alexander impresses you.
Speaker #8
So Alexandre impresses you.
Speaker #5
Oh,
Speaker #4
Oh yeah,
Speaker #5
yeah When I first met him
Speaker #4
when I first met him,
Speaker #5
I took him to a really extent expensive sushi and pitch him shape of water
Speaker #4
I took him to a... really expensive sushi and pitch in shape of water. I said,
Speaker #5
Said we're eating fish and I want to pitch you a movie
Speaker #4
we're eating fish and I want to pitch you a movie.
Speaker #5
Now we started with the rise of the Guardians.
Speaker #4
We started with Rise of the Guardians.
Speaker #5
Yeah, and and
Speaker #4
And I am a huge fan.
Speaker #5
I am a huge fan
Speaker #4
We had talked before on the phone when you won your first Oscar,
Speaker #5
We have talked before on the phone when you won your first Oscar and I wanted to congratulate him and I said
Speaker #4
and I wanted to congratulate him, and I said, I'm a big admirer,
Speaker #5
I'm a big admirer and I was and I was hoping one day to work with him.
Speaker #4
and I was. And I was hoping one day to work with him.
Speaker #7
But why does a film music composer impress you more than a set designer or cinematographer?
Speaker #8
But why does a film music composer impress you more than a set designer or a cinematographer?
Speaker #4
The things I cannot do impress me the most.
Speaker #5
The things I cannot do impress me the most. The things where I can meddle a lot,
Speaker #4
The things where I can meddle a lot, I'm a very bad boss.
Speaker #5
I'm a very bad boss. I go
Speaker #4
I go, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker #5
With Alexander,
Speaker #4
with Alexander...
Speaker #5
we talk about emotions.
Speaker #4
We talk about emotions.
Speaker #5
Before Alexander,
Speaker #4
Before Alexander,
Speaker #5
I never went to recording sessions.
Speaker #4
I never went to recording sessions.
Speaker #5
Because,
Speaker #4
Because remember,
Speaker #5
remember, I come from independent,
Speaker #4
I come from independent,
Speaker #5
independent,
Speaker #4
independent, independent cinema.
Speaker #5
independent cinema. And we had to choose between paying for two more violins or my airplane tickets.
Speaker #4
And we had to choose between paying for two more violins or my airplane tickets. And I said,
Speaker #5
And I said,
Speaker #4
get two more violinists.
Speaker #5
get two more violinists, what am I going to say?
Speaker #4
What am I going to say? And Alexander was the first composer.
Speaker #5
And Alexander was the first composer to say,
Speaker #4
I said,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
no, no,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
no,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
no, you're coming.
Speaker #5
you're coming. And you're going to talk to me in emotional terms and say what you feel.
Speaker #4
And you're going to talk to me in emotional terms and say what you feel.
Speaker #5
And you will,
Speaker #4
and I cannot not have you in the...
Speaker #5
I cannot not have you. And it was the first scoring session that I actually...
Speaker #4
and it was the first scoring session that I actually...
Speaker #8
You attended.
Speaker #7
You attended.
Speaker #5
The whole complete.
Speaker #4
The whole complete. I would visit one day or two and go shopping when they were the bigger movies.
Speaker #5
I would visit one day or two and go shopping. When they were the bigger movies.
Speaker #4
And with Alexander,
Speaker #5
And with Alexander,
Speaker #4
I finally realized how the dialogue continued there.
Speaker #5
I finally realized how the dialogue continued there.
Speaker #4
piano plays in bright rhythm
Speaker #7
Alexander,
Speaker #8
Alexandre,
Speaker #7
I just wanted to ask you,
Speaker #8
I just wanted to ask you,
Speaker #7
do you remember your founding impression in front of the film The Shape of Water?
Speaker #8
do you remember your founding impression in front of the film, The Shape of Water?
Speaker #9
Very well.
Speaker #6
Very well. In Los Angeles,
Speaker #9
In Los Angeles you showed it to me and I said exactly what you just remember,
Speaker #6
you showed it to me, and I said exactly what you just remembered,
Speaker #9
that...
Speaker #6
that the camera was flawless.
Speaker #9
the camera was flawless,
Speaker #6
Never stopped.
Speaker #9
never stopped.
Speaker #6
And that was magical for music because it is a musical movement that never has anything in the way.
Speaker #9
And that was magical for music because it is a musical movement that never has anything in the way.
Speaker #6
And we discussed about water and waves.
Speaker #9
And we discussed about what, and waves and we started talking about instrumentation.
Speaker #6
and we started talking about instrumentation.
Speaker #9
I said,
Speaker #6
I said,
Speaker #9
we could do something crazy,
Speaker #6
we could do something crazy, have like 12 flutes or something.
Speaker #9
have like 12 flutes or something.
Speaker #6
And it ended like that.
Speaker #9
And it ended like that.
Speaker #6
Sometimes you have crazy ideas and they're bad,
Speaker #9
Sometimes you have crazy ideas and they're bad and they go away after a moment.
Speaker #6
and they go away after a moment. But this one stayed,
Speaker #9
But this one stayed and we recorded with 12 flutes,
Speaker #6
and we recorded with 12 flutes, which creates a strange texture of sound.
Speaker #9
which creates a strange texture of sound.
Speaker #6
And with the experience now,
Speaker #9
And with the experience now,
Speaker #6
when
Speaker #9
when
Speaker #6
I see a film for the first time that I'm being offered,
Speaker #9
I see a film for the first time that I'm being offered
Speaker #6
I know if it's a great film or not,
Speaker #9
I know if it's a great film or not,
Speaker #6
unfortunately.
Speaker #9
unfortunately.
Speaker #4
But it happens quick also.
Speaker #5
But it happens quick also, that what you want to find...
Speaker #4
What you want to find...
Speaker #5
Look,
Speaker #4
Look,
Speaker #5
you ask why
Speaker #4
you ask why
Speaker #5
I meddle in production design from the beginning,
Speaker #4
I meddle in production design from the beginning,
Speaker #5
even before anyone comes on board with music,
Speaker #4
even before. anyone comes on board with music,
Speaker #5
it's the only time in making a movie where I am surprised.
Speaker #4
is the only time in making a movie where I am surprised.
Speaker #5
It's the only time.
Speaker #4
It's the only time.
Speaker #7
At the recording session you become a spectator of your own movie.
Speaker #8
At the recording session, you become a spectator of your own movie.
Speaker #5
Well, yes,
Speaker #4
Yes,
Speaker #5
because I'm cooking for everyone,
Speaker #4
because I'm cooking for everyone. all day long,
Speaker #5
all day long, every day,
Speaker #4
every day, you know?
Speaker #5
you know?
Speaker #4
And when I come in,
Speaker #5
And when I come in,
Speaker #4
Alexander has a table.
Speaker #5
Alexander has a table.
Speaker #4
And I go,
Speaker #5
And
Speaker #4
nom, nom, nom,
Speaker #5
I go,
Speaker #4
nom,
Speaker #5
nom
Speaker #4
nom. And it's amazing that I'm receiving and you find the final character of the film.
Speaker #5
And it's amazing that I'm receiving, and you find the final character of the film.
Speaker #4
I think the older you get as a filmmaker,
Speaker #5
I think the older you get as a filmmaker,
Speaker #4
the more you understand that the movie talks to you.
Speaker #5
the more you understand that the movie talks to you. You shut up and listen.
Speaker #4
You shut up and listen. And that's what you do with composing.
Speaker #5
And that's what you do with composing.
Speaker #3
The form of water is built around two main characters,
Speaker #2
The form of water is built around two main characters,
Speaker #3
an
Speaker #2
an
Speaker #3
Amazonian aquatic creature and an American housewife,
Speaker #2
Amazonian aquatic creature and an American housewife, Eliza,
Speaker #3
both of them mute.
Speaker #2
both mute.
Speaker #3
Was the mission of the music precisely to reveal their feelings,
Speaker #2
The mission of music was precisely to reveal their feelings.
Speaker #3
to make them speak?
Speaker #6
Yes, of course, I'm the voice of the silent characters. You know, it's important to understand that when we are in the same room together, There's no frontier. We just, ah,
Speaker #9
Ah, we could try that.
Speaker #6
we could try that. Maybe not.
Speaker #9
Maybe not.
Speaker #6
Let's try this.
Speaker #9
Let's try this. Oh,
Speaker #6
Oh, yes.
Speaker #9
yes. Let's try.
Speaker #6
Let's try. You know,
Speaker #9
You know,
Speaker #6
it's a real exchange of artistic ideas.
Speaker #9
it's a real exchange of artistic ideas.
Speaker #6
That's also part of my role here,
Speaker #9
That's also part of my role here,
Speaker #6
to be able to hear and respond,
Speaker #9
to be able to hear and respond,
Speaker #6
you know,
Speaker #9
you know,
Speaker #6
to a duet of artistic ideas.
Speaker #9
to a duet of artistic ideas.
Speaker #7
But you sometimes disagree,
Speaker #8
But you sometimes disagree,
Speaker #7
I suppose.
Speaker #8
I suppose.
Speaker #6
Yes,
Speaker #9
Yes,
Speaker #6
we do.
Speaker #9
we do.
Speaker #5
Yeah,
Speaker #4
Yeah,
Speaker #5
yeah,
Speaker #4
yeah,
Speaker #5
but that's the beauty of it.
Speaker #4
but that's the beauty of it. I mean,
Speaker #5
I mean, when two people agree,
Speaker #4
when two people agree,
Speaker #5
one should leave.
Speaker #4
one should leave. You know,
Speaker #5
You know? I mean,
Speaker #4
I mean... The other thing with Shape of Water is I knew I wanted to make a Vincente Minelli musical.
Speaker #5
the other thing with Shape of Water is I knew I wanted to make a Vincente Minelli musical.
Speaker #4
And I was going to shoot a musical that was not a musical.
Speaker #5
And I was going to shoot a musical that was not a musical. So the camera moves were very Minelli or very Donnan.
Speaker #4
So the camera moves were very Minelli or very Donnan.
Speaker #5
They were continuous.
Speaker #4
They were continuous. It looked like she was going to break on a song.
Speaker #5
It looked like she was going to break on a song.
Speaker #4
And I knew that we would build to her finally getting up from the table and singing to the creature.
Speaker #5
And I knew that we would build to her. Finally, getting up from the table and singing to the creature,
Speaker #4
So the score had to have that flair because it needed to feel like a musical in a strange way.
Speaker #5
so the score had to have that flair because it needed to feel like a musical in a strange way.
Speaker #9
And just to complete,
Speaker #6
And just to complete, when I watch the film and I start working on it,
Speaker #9
when I watch the film and I start working on it,
Speaker #6
I become another actor in the film.
Speaker #9
I become another actor in the film.
Speaker #6
And the more I go,
Speaker #9
And the more I go,
Speaker #6
the more I work,
Speaker #9
the more I work, I'm living with images.
Speaker #6
I'm living with images.
Speaker #9
and I'm really living into the film.
Speaker #6
And I'm really living into the film.
Speaker #9
I try to be inside the film,
Speaker #6
I try to be inside the film,
Speaker #9
to be with the actors and with the camera moves and let my role disappear completely,
Speaker #6
to be with the actors, and with the camera moves, and be... that my role disappears completely, that I'm not a person,
Speaker #9
that I'm not a person,
Speaker #6
I'm inside,
Speaker #9
I'm inside,
Speaker #6
inside the film.
Speaker #9
inside the film.
Speaker #2
How to create a musical idea?
Speaker #3
Facing an image, how do you create a musical idea?
Speaker #2
In front of an image, how to create a musical idea?
Speaker #3
Does it start with a melodic phrase,
Speaker #2
Does it start with a melodic phrase,
Speaker #3
a harmonic trame,
Speaker #2
a harmonic trame, a rhythm,
Speaker #3
a rhythm,
Speaker #2
a timbre idea or an alias of timbres?
Speaker #6
a timbre idea or an alias of timbres?
Speaker #9
At that stage the melodies are already on the board, I have all the themes that I want to use. I know the orchestration, which is something I try to disrupt.
Speaker #6
decided early on.
Speaker #9
decided early on. So we know we have an orchestra.
Speaker #6
So we know we have an orchestra. We know we have these 12 flutes.
Speaker #9
We know we have these 12 flutes.
Speaker #6
We know we have these keyboards and vibraphone and electric piano and harp.
Speaker #9
We know we have these keyboards and vibraphone and electric piano and harp.
Speaker #7
Whistle.
Speaker #8
Whistle.
Speaker #6
And whistle because there's a scene where we see,
Speaker #9
And whistle because there's a scene where we see
Speaker #6
Eliza whistling,
Speaker #9
Eliza whistling,
Speaker #6
waiting for the bus.
Speaker #9
waiting for the bus.
Speaker #6
And we had this idea at my studio,
Speaker #9
And we had this idea in my studio thing.
Speaker #6
thinking maybe she's whistling,
Speaker #9
Maybe she's whistling.
Speaker #6
maybe she could whistle.
Speaker #9
Maybe she could whistle.
Speaker #6
Maybe the theme could be whistled.
Speaker #9
Maybe the theme could be whistled.
Speaker #6
That became the main theme,
Speaker #9
That became the main theme,
Speaker #6
whistled.
Speaker #9
whistled.
Speaker #8
Was it difficult to find a good whistler?
Speaker #7
Was it difficult to find a good whistler?
Speaker #5
We found the best in England.
Speaker #4
We found the best in England.
Speaker #5
The world champion.
Speaker #4
World champion.
Speaker #5
The world champion whistling.
Speaker #4
World champion whistling.
Speaker #5
And it was so good that we didn't use him.
Speaker #4
And it was so good that we didn't use him.
Speaker #5
And
Speaker #4
And Alexander did it.
Speaker #5
Alexander did it.
Speaker #6
Because he could do...
Speaker #9
Because he could do...
Speaker #4
It was like a virtuoso.
Speaker #5
It was like a virtuoso.
Speaker #9
No,
Speaker #6
No,
Speaker #9
it really whistled like a virtuoso.
Speaker #6
it really sounded like a virtuoso.
Speaker #9
But as for emotion and expressivo,
Speaker #6
But as for emotion and expressivo,
Speaker #9
it didn't work.
Speaker #6
it didn't work.
Speaker #9
I don't know,
Speaker #6
I don't know,
Speaker #9
it was strange.
Speaker #6
it was strange.
Speaker #9
So being a flautist,
Speaker #6
so being a flautist I was
Speaker #9
I whistled.
Speaker #7
Could you prove it?
Speaker #8
Could you prove it?
Speaker #6
Yes.
Speaker #8
Yes.
Speaker #7
Right now?
Speaker #8
Right now,
Speaker #9
go ahead.
Speaker #6
Go ahead.
Speaker #9
No.
Speaker #6
No.
Speaker #9
The beginning is like this.
Speaker #6
The beginning is like this.
Speaker #5
Bravo!
Speaker #9
Bravo!
Speaker #6
It's very simple.
Speaker #9
It's simple.
Speaker #6
It's easy,
Speaker #9
It's easy,
Speaker #6
film music.
Speaker #9
film music.
Speaker #3
We can also wonder what is the connection between a situation and the image,
Speaker #2
We can also ask ourselves what is the connection between a situation in the image and the precise choice of a tone.
Speaker #3
and the precise choice of a tone.
Speaker #2
Is it linked to colour, to light?
Speaker #6
Is it related to colour?
Speaker #9
Yes, it's all that all together. The range of the instrument that I'm going to use,
Speaker #6
To light?
Speaker #9
because some instruments go too high or too low or don't have the right tone in that register.
Speaker #6
because some instruments go too high or too low or don't have the right tone in that register. But,
Speaker #9
But yeah,
Speaker #6
yeah,
Speaker #9
for example,
Speaker #6
for example, if I would play this in another key than B flat,
Speaker #9
if I would play this in... another key than Bb,
Speaker #6
which is the one I played,
Speaker #9
which the one I played, it would be just,
Speaker #6
it would be just,
Speaker #9
I don't know,
Speaker #6
I don't know,
Speaker #9
it would not vibrate.
Speaker #6
it would not vibrate.
Speaker #9
And that's always the thing I'm looking for,
Speaker #6
And that's always the thing I'm looking for,
Speaker #9
this vibration.
Speaker #6
this vibration. And that's the beginning of the melody.
Speaker #9
And that's the beginning of the melody.
Speaker #6
But then it goes into the...
Speaker #9
But then it goes into the big tutti.
Speaker #6
the big tutti.
Speaker #9
And there it has to be in a key where the instruments really will sound very well.
Speaker #6
And there it has to be in a key where the instruments really will sound very well.
Speaker #9
So it's all connected to the way you build the composition itself also.
Speaker #6
So it's all connected. to the way you build the composition itself also. But yes,
Speaker #9
But yes,
Speaker #6
for example,
Speaker #9
for example,
Speaker #6
we were talking about birth in D major.
Speaker #9
we were talking about birth in D major.
Speaker #6
It's a very bright key full of light,
Speaker #9
It's a very bright key full of light and it was just perfect to that moment.
Speaker #6
and it was just perfect to that moment. And sometimes I use keys which are difficult for musicians because there are many flats or many sharps,
Speaker #9
And sometimes I use keys which are difficult for musicians because there are many flats or many sharps.
Speaker #6
but they're just right to the image because of the...
Speaker #9
They're just right to the image because of the tone of the color,
Speaker #6
The tone of the color,
Speaker #9
I don't know,
Speaker #6
I don't know,
Speaker #9
the light,
Speaker #6
the light, the voice of the actress,
Speaker #9
the voice of the actress, or I don't know,
Speaker #6
or I don't know,
Speaker #9
whatever it is.
Speaker #6
whatever it is.
Speaker #5
The thing is to not disagree on that.
Speaker #4
The thing is to not disagree on that. That's where we don't disagree.
Speaker #5
That's where we don't disagree.
Speaker #4
There's never a moment where I say,
Speaker #5
There's never a moment where I say,
Speaker #4
you know,
Speaker #5
you know,
Speaker #4
help here.
Speaker #5
help here. Music should not help.
Speaker #4
Music should not help. Music should make the scene be the scene.
Speaker #5
Music should make the scene be the scene. And we hear it,
Speaker #4
And we hear it,
Speaker #5
like two days ago we were hearing a piece of Frankenstein and we changed the key,
Speaker #4
like two days ago we were hearing a piece of Frankenstein and we changed the key,
Speaker #5
or he changed the key.
Speaker #4
or he changed the key. And we went,
Speaker #5
And we went,
Speaker #4
no,
Speaker #5
no,
Speaker #4
this is now too romantic or too heroic.
Speaker #5
this is now too romantic or too heroic.
Speaker #4
Because the emotion changes.
Speaker #5
Because the emotion changes.
Speaker #7
But I remember you told me that you used a temp track for The Shape of Water.
Speaker #8
But I remember you told me that you used a temp track for... or the shape of water.
Speaker #4
I hate the temps.
Speaker #5
I hate the temps. I use the temp when I show it to the studio,
Speaker #4
I use the temp when I show it to the studio and when we start showing it to an audience.
Speaker #5
and when we start showing it to an audience.
Speaker #4
So it comes involved in a process that I don't necessarily like.
Speaker #5
So it comes involved in a process that I don't necessarily like.
Speaker #4
I try never to fall in love with it.
Speaker #5
I try never to fall in love with it. It's always something that works for a...
Speaker #4
It's always something that works for a few seconds and then stops working for another few seconds.
Speaker #5
A few seconds and then stops working for another few seconds. And if you marry that piece,
Speaker #4
And if you marry that piece,
Speaker #5
you marry the mistake as much as you marry the quality.
Speaker #4
you marry the mistake as much as you marry the quality. And it's a horrible thing to do.
Speaker #5
And it's a horrible thing to do.
Speaker #9
It's the problem with temp music.
Speaker #6
It's the problem with temp music because it becomes something vertical.
Speaker #9
because it becomes something vertical. And as I've been playing before,
Speaker #6
And as I've been playing before,
Speaker #9
music is something horizontal.
Speaker #6
music is something horizontal that goes from the beginning of the film to the end of the film,
Speaker #9
It goes from the beginning of the film to the end of the film, like a river that flows with the film like this,
Speaker #6
like a river that flows with the film like this,
Speaker #9
you know,
Speaker #6
you know,
Speaker #9
from left to right and left to right for you.
Speaker #6
from left to right. And left to right for you.
Speaker #9
And if you don't understand that,
Speaker #6
And if you don't understand that, you can't write good film music.
Speaker #9
you can't write good film music.
Speaker #6
You have to understand that there's a flow and the music has to flow.
Speaker #9
You have to understand that there's a flow and the music has to flow.
Speaker #6
You should just hit moments,
Speaker #9
If you just hit moments,
Speaker #6
you know,
Speaker #9
you know,
Speaker #6
vertically.
Speaker #9
vertically.
Speaker #5
We saw it in two clips.
Speaker #4
We saw it in two clips.
Speaker #5
We saw it in the Jaws clip when he cuts to the wide and there's an impasse in the music.
Speaker #4
In the Jaws clip, when he cuts to the wide and there's an impasse in the music, I'm sure it's not the right term,
Speaker #5
I'm sure it's not the right term.
Speaker #4
but in Shape of Water,
Speaker #5
And in Shape of Water,
Speaker #4
you can decide to end the score when she runs out of the theater,
Speaker #5
you can decide to end the score when she runs out of the theater.
Speaker #4
but instead it peaks because her emotion is pure melodrama.
Speaker #5
But instead it peaks. because her emotion is pure melodrama.
Speaker #4
It's Douglas Sirk,
Speaker #5
It's Douglas Sirk, it's Vinelli.
Speaker #4
it's Vinelli,
Speaker #5
And that's the decision you make.
Speaker #4
and that's the decision you make. I remember Alexander the other day said,
Speaker #5
Alexander the other day said, I said,
Speaker #4
I said,
Speaker #5
what if we finish here?
Speaker #4
what if we finish here?
Speaker #5
And he says,
Speaker #4
And he says,
Speaker #5
we haven't,
Speaker #4
we're not done.
Speaker #5
we're not done. We still have to go here.
Speaker #4
We still have to go here.
Speaker #5
And I go,
Speaker #4
And I go, that's right.
Speaker #5
that's right.
Speaker #4
So he talks like a storyteller,
Speaker #5
So he talks like a storyteller, not a musician.
Speaker #4
not a musician.

Chapters

Introduction et présentation des intervenants
9sec
La rencontre entre Alexandre Desplat et Guillermo del Toro
19sec
L'importance de la musique dans le cinéma
44sec
Les souvenirs de Guillermo del Toro sur la musique de film
1min
La musique comme voix des personnages muets
1min
La collaboration créative entre réalisateur et compositeur
3min
Les influences musicales et le processus de création
4min
Analyse des thèmes musicaux dans La Forme de l'eau
6min
L'impact émotionnel de la musique au cinéma
8min
Comment créer une idée musicale devant une image
15min

Embed

Introduction et présentation des intervenants

9sec

La rencontre entre Alexandre Desplat et Guillermo del Toro

19sec

L'importance de la musique dans le cinéma

44sec

Les souvenirs de Guillermo del Toro sur la musique de film

1min

La musique comme voix des personnages muets

1min

La collaboration créative entre réalisateur et compositeur

3min

Les influences musicales et le processus de création

4min

Analyse des thèmes musicaux dans La Forme de l'eau

6min

L'impact émotionnel de la musique au cinéma

8min

Comment créer une idée musicale devant une image

15min

Chapters

Introduction et présentation des intervenants

9sec

La rencontre entre Alexandre Desplat et Guillermo del Toro

19sec

L'importance de la musique dans le cinéma

44sec

Les souvenirs de Guillermo del Toro sur la musique de film

1min

La musique comme voix des personnages muets

1min

La collaboration créative entre réalisateur et compositeur

3min

Les influences musicales et le processus de création

4min

Analyse des thèmes musicaux dans La Forme de l'eau

6min

L'impact émotionnel de la musique au cinéma

8min

Comment créer une idée musicale devant une image

15min