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Musique
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The great interviews of the Sacem museum with Stéphane Lerouge.
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Les grands entretiens du musée de la Sacem avec Stéphane Lerouge Musique
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At the Cannes Festival 2025,
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At the Cannes Festival 2025, the Leçon de Musique SACEM celebrated a emblematic composer-cinema composer duo,
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the SACEM music lesson celebrated a emblematic composer-cinema composer, the French Alexandre Desplat and the Mexican Guillermo del Toro.
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the French Alexandre Desplat and the Mexican Guillermo del Toro.
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Their meeting in 2017 is a friendly touch.
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Their meeting in 2017 is a friendly and professional blow,
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and professional, welded by the striking success of the form of the humanist fable water which is worth to the composer his second oscar.
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welded by the striking success of La Forme de l'eau, a humanist fable that deserves the composer his second Oscar. It will then be an original rereading of Pinocchio,
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It will then be an original rereading of Pinocchio,
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treated as a musical tale,
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treated as a musical tale and in 2021,
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and in 2025,
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a very lyrical Frankenstein where the monster is less the creature than its creator.
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a very lyrical Frankenstein, where the monster is less the creature than its creator.
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In parallel with the collaborations with Wes Anderson,
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In parallel with the collaborations with Wes Anderson, Stephen Frears,
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Stephen Frears, George Clooney or Roman Polanski,
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George Clooney or Roman Polanski, the axis of El Toro holds a singular place in Alexandre Desplat's career,
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the axis of El Toro holds a singular place in Alexandre Desplat's career, which often emphasizes that each filmmaker has his own functioning,
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which often emphasizes that each filmmaker has his own functioning,
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his own relationship to music.
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his own relationship to music. So,
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So precisely,
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precisely,
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what is Guillermo del Toro's way of working?
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what is Guillermo del Toro's way of working?
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Del Toro.
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I've learned his passion for music and for film music,
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and for film music.
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so it's a great help,
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So it's a great help because when we exchange we have references that we can you know go to.
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because when we exchange, we have references that we can, you know, go to. But
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But
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I think it's his open mind,
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I think it's his open mind as you know he's just open to whatever I would suggest.
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you know, he's just open to whatever I would suggest. If it's right,
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If it's right it's fine,
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it's fine.
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it has to be right.
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It has to be right. Of course,
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Of course if I say shit then it's not good but if I bring a good idea it works and he's always open to.
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if I say shit, it's not good. But if I bring a good idea, it works. and he's always open to change routes.
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to change routes, you know, sometimes he had an idea,
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Sometimes he had an idea,
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oh,
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oh,
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we should do this,
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we should do this,
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that,
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that, and I suggest,
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and I suggest,
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maybe,
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maybe,
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how about we do this,
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how about we do this,
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we do that.
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we do that, and he's always open to,
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And he's always open to... And that's a great,
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and that's a great, great quality,
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great quality because
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because I need to feel that the director has confidence in me,
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I need to feel that the director has confidence in me.
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otherwise it's painful.
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Otherwise, it's painful.
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So,
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So, Guillermo,
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Guillermo, the second act of your collaboration was your adaptation of Carlo Collodi's
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the second act of your collaboration was your adaptation of Carlo Collodi's
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Pinocchio, which is a very original version,
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Pinocchio, which is... A very original version because it's really a film about loss and grief.
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because it's really a film about... Loss and Grief. How did you get the idea of treating it as a musical tale?
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How did you get the idea of treating it as a musical tale?
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It was from the beginning.
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It was from the beginning.
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It started very different and it got mutated when I finally decided on this form.
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It started very different and it got mutated when I finally decided on this form. I knew I wanted
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I knew I wanted Pinocchio to sing to Mussolini,
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Pinocchio to sing to Mussolini.
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you know,
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And
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and I think that the clarity of a musical where you can declare...
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I think that the clarity of a musical where you can declare
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The personality or the intentions or the dreams of a character is very,
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The personality or the intentions or the dreams of a character is very,
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very clean.
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very clean.
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It can get you not only through the story,
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It can get you not only through the story,
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but through a lot of unnecessary sort of signification.
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but through a lot of unnecessary sort of signification.
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With the puppet being stop-motion and the actors being stop-motion,
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With the puppet being stop-motion and the actors being stop-motion,
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the way to bring the humanity in all of them was through the singing.
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the way to bring the humanity in all of them was through the singing. And it was constructed very much like a musical.
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And it was constructed very much like a musical. If you see,
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If you see,
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it has a touch of grace at the end when the pine cone falls.
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it has a touch of grace at the end when the pine cone falls.
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It's like a...
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It's like a...
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It's like a punctuation at the end of a symphony.
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It's like a punctuation at the end of a symphony. Same in Pan's Labyrinth,
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Same in Pan's Labyrinth,
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the flower blooming at the end.
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the flower blooming at the end. These are punctuation marks,
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These are punctuation marks, and that,
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and that,
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like Shape of Water,
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like Shape of Water, it declared itself to be a musical.
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it declared itself to be a musical. For example,
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For example, Frankenstein,
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Frankenstein, I never thought.
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I never thought. The movie tells you what it wants to be.
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The movie tells you what it wants to be.
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It really does.
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It really does.
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And I think people think a director's job is to talk.
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And I think people think a director's job is to talk.
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A director's job is to listen a lot also.
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A director's job is to listen a lot also,
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And to collaborators,
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and to collaborators, to the movie itself,
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to the movie itself, to actors.
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to actors.
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So
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So Pinocchio wanted to be that because he's in the theater.
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Pinocchio wanted to be that because he's in the theater. He's in the marionette theater.
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He's in the marionette theater.
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In many movies I try to not be too...
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In many movies I try to not be too close to the period of the film,
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close to the period of the film. But for this one,
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but for this one it seemed just not right to go too far away and write pop songs that would be completely...
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it seemed just not right to go too far away and write pop songs that would be completely disconnected to the time.
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disconnected to the time.
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So I think we decided very early on that it would fit a more
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So I think we decided very early on that it would fit a more
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1920s, 30s kind of orchestration type of melodies.
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1920s, 30s kind of orchestration type of melodies.
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And the challenge was that there were many songs to write.
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And the challenge was that there were many songs to write ahead of time,
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ahead of time many many many many many months or a year before it was covet time we had to sometimes
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many, many, many, many, many months or a year before. It was COVID time, we had to sometimes
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I record from abroad.
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...record from abroad. I remember the little boy who was recording Pinocchio.
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I remember the little boy who was recording Pinocchio.
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He was in his bedroom in London and I was coaching him.
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He was in his bedroom in London and I was coaching him. Christoph Watz was somewhere in Los Angeles.
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Christoph Watz was somewhere in Los Angeles.
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Ewan McGregor was in his garage.
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Ewan McGregor was in his garage.
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But the challenge was mostly artistic,
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But the challenge was... mostly artistic,
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you know,
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to try and have a continuity with all the songs and make the score marry with all these songs and use some of the themes or not.
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to try and have a continuity with all the songs and make the score. marry with all these songs and use some of the themes or not. It was a complex,
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It was a complex, complicated machine.
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complicated machine.
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And you make it right And your heart is bright So let the world know how it goes
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And you make it right, and your heart is right, so let the world know how it goes, open your arms to better tomorrow.
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Open your arms to better Open your arms Open your arms to better
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Open your arms to better tomorrow. To better
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When we started talking about the songs,
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When we started talking about the songs, Guillermo had written some lyrics on the page,
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Guillermo had written some lyrics on the page,
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on the script,
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on the script,
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and it became the kind of blueprint,
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and it became the kind of blueprint,
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the beginning of the writing of the songs,
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the beginning of the writing of the songs,
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and I brought in my old friend,
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and I brought in my old friend.
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yeah,
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cats who I'd written songs with in the past we were talking to Beck the rock star and he was really hard to schedule and I said you know who's always around?
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Katz. who I'd written songs with in the past.
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We were talking to Beck, the rock star, and he was really hard to schedule. And I said, you know who's always around? Me.
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Me So we went at it with the song My Son,
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So we went at it with the song My Son,
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and that was successful,
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and that was successful, and I thought,
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and I thought, oh,
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oh,
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I'm a lyricist.
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I'm a lyricist.
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You are a lyricist.
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You're a lyricist. I'm not.
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I'm not. So,
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So,
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you know,
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you know,
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Alexander and Katz,
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Alexander and Katz,
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we would discuss the main ideas,
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we would discuss the main ideas, and then they would go away and work on the rest of the songs.
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and then they would go away and work on the rest of the song.
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Ciao,
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Ciao Papa!
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Papa. Could you sing it,
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Could you sing it, the first verse?
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the first verse? No.
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No.
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But you said,
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You said, you accepted.
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you accepted.
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Yeah,
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Yeah,
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but you were serving me ice cream.
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but you were serving me ice cream. I lied.
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I lied.
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I'm not doing it.
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I'm not doing it.
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You're not a real singer.
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You're not a real singer.
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No,
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no.
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No.
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Are you disappointed?
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Are you disappointed?
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Ciao,
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Ciao,
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Papa.
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Papa.
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Mi
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Papa. Voilà.
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Très bien.
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No,
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No, no. Basta. That's it.
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that's it. It's opening.
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It's opening. No, but the spirit of that song was so important because,
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But the spirit of that song was so important because like Frankenstein,
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like Frankenstein,
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for me,
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for me,
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it's a story of fathers and sons.
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it's a story of fathers and sons. And to say farewell was...
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And to say farewell was such a beautiful feeling.
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Such a beautiful feeling and
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And
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I think the song captured it.
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I think the song captured it.
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And father and son is the spine of all your movies.
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And father and son is the spine of all your movies.
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Yes,
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Yes, unfortunately so.
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unfortunately so.
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Ciao Papa,
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Ciao papa,
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mio Papa,
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mio papa
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time has come to say farewell.
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Time has come to say farewell For how long will I go,
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For how long will I go,
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is it far?
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is it far? No one knows,
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No one knows,
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no one can tell.
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no one can tell If I am gone for a long,
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If I am gone for a long, long time,
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long time,
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I'll pack a...
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I'll pack away a fine piece of shine.
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away a fine piece of shine, the sounds of birds jumping with bells,
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The sounds of birds jumping with bells,
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your rings of plums,
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draw rings of plums to bags of shells.
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your bags of shells, the smell of bread,
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The smell of bread,
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a drum of wine,
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a drop of wine,
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your memory,
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your memory,
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father of mine.
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father of mine.
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Farewell, my papa.
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In a stop motion animation film,
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Papa In a stop-motion animation film,
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with songs, these are obviously recorded before the animation.
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with songs, these are obviously recorded before the animation.
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To what extent does having music at the time of shooting influence the staging?
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To what extent does having music at the time of the shooting influence the staging?
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Yeah, the animation is based on the soundtrack first. We record the actors on what is called a scratch track, and the songs,
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Songs, of course,
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of course,
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need to have that emotion.
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need to have that emotion. And I think that's what I value in Alexander,
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And I think that's what I value in Alexander and I have in common with him.
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and I have in common with him.
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There is a thing,
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There is a thing in...
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when I was raised Catholic,
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When I was raised Catholic, it was called a state of grace.
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it was called a state of grace. What it means is,
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What it means is,
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for me,
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for me,
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emotionally,
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emotionally, we have an innocence that allows us to get emotional.
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we have an innocence that allows us to get emotional. I think that a lot of art is meant to be objective and distant,
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I think that a lot of art is meant to be objective and distant, and we share the knowledge that art is emotion.
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and we share the knowledge that art is emotion.
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I'm Mexican,
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I'm Mexican, so I'm extremely emotional,
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so I'm extremely emotional, but Alexander and I share that bond where the meter we use for the final themes and all that is,
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but Alexander and I share that bond where we, the meter we use for the final themes and all that is, I say,
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I say,
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I haven't cried.
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I haven't cried.
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Until I cry in his studio,
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Until I cry in his studio,
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we don't rest.
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we don't rest.
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And I think that's a very open,
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And I think that's a very open, sincere and risky thing to do these days,
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sincere, and risky thing to do these days,
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because I think emotion is the new punk.
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because I think emotion is the new punk. It's something people don't risk,
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It's something people don't risk,
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and we risk it.
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and we risk it.
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For the son of Gepetto,
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For the son of Gepetto, Carlo,
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Carlo, Alexandre wrote a deep and naive theme at the same time,
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Alexandre wrote a deep and naive theme at the same time,
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which already seems to belong to the collective memory,
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which seems to already belong to the collective memory,
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a theme that he will play for us the first measures on the piano.
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a theme he will play for us the first time on the piano.
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The
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The
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theme is original but it seems to be part of the collective memory.
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theme is original but it seems to be part of the collective memory.
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I don't know,
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I don't know,
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I just try to make it accessible I guess.
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I just try to make it accessible I guess and without being
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Without being simplistic and simple,
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simplistic and simple is not the same.
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it's not the same. So simple means that I spend many,
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So simple means that I spend many,
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many hours trying.
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many hours trying.
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Sometimes some themes just come very quickly,
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Sometimes some themes just come very quickly,
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but most of the time,
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but most of the time, it's hard to write a good melody.
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it's hard to write a good melody. It's a lot of work,
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It's a lot of work,
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a lot of tries and tries and tries again and again until you find the right shape,
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a lot of tries and tries and tries again and again until you find the right shape,
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the right chord changes.
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the right chord changes. You sleep with it,
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You sleep with it,
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you wake up with it until you find the right thing.
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you wake up with it, until you find the right thing.
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But when you write a melody,
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But when you write a melody, you want everybody to be able to sing it.
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you want everybody to be able to sing it.
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So it...
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and at the same time it has to fit the character that you're writing a theme for.
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and at the same time it has to fit the character that you're writing a theme for. I remember,
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I don't know if you remember that,
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I don't know if you remember that,
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I wrote the score of a movie called Philomena for Stephen Frears,
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I wrote the score of a movie called Philomena for Stephen Frears, and it's the story of a nurse,
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and it's the story of a nurse,
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the woman was a nurse.
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the woman was a nurse. So a woman who was quite simple and worked with her hands all her life.
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So a woman who was quite simple and who worked with her hands all her life. And so I started writing a theme,
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So I started writing a theme,
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and it couldn't be too sophisticated or too elaborate,
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and it couldn't be too sophisticated or too elaborate, too complex.
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too complex.
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It just didn't work.
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It just didn't work and I thought about her hands,
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And I thought about her hands, that she was working with her hands.
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that she was working with her hands.
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So I tried to find a melody that could just fit in one hand.
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So I tried to find a melody that could just fit in one hand.
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So the fingers are like this on the piano,
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So the fingers are like this on the piano and they don't move,
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and they don't move, it's just this.
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it's just this. And that's a way of being in tune with what is on the screen.
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And that's a way of being in tune with what is on the screen. It's just trying to understand what the character is revealing and what your music can reveal of the character.
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It's just trying to understand what the character is revealing and what your music can reveal of the character.
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You use the word revealing.
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You use the word revealing.
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Guillermo,
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Guillermo,
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you always say that a good composer does not underline,
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you always... say that a good composer does not underline,
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he reveals.
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he reveals.
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Yeah,
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Yeah, I believe that.
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I believe that. I think that,
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I think that,
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I mean,
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I mean,
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it's what in the old days they called Mickey Mouse-ing.
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it's what in the old days they called Mickey Mousing. You don't Mickey Mouse.
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You don't Mickey Mouse.
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You don't pop, you know it is you supplement you propel you de-accelerate when we are working together oftentimes i say i'm gonna give you another an extra beat on this shot and i call the editor right there and this shot at 36 frames or you know 12 or 24 but i also learned to breathe with his music the editing is
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You supplement, you propel, you deaccelerate. When we are working together, oftentimes I say, I'm going to give you an extra beat on this shot. And I call the editor right there and say, this shot had 36 frames, or 12, or 24. But I also learned to breathe with his music. The editing is not only one-sided.
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not only one-sided you know if if we feel that it needs
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If we feel that it needs a moment more,
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A moment more,
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Are we...
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we're going to extend the shot.
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we can extend the shot.
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So
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So
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I'm not underlining,
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I'm not underlining,
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he's not underlining,
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he's not underlining, we're singing together.
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we're singing together. That's the thing,
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That's the thing.
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it's a jazz,
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It's a jazz,
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we are riffing.
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we are riffing.
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As abstract as this sounds,
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As abstract as this sounds,
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I think a good color version is riffing.
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I think a good color version is riffing. piano plays in bright rhythm
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What could you tell us about the score for Frankenstein?
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What could you tell us about the score for Frankenstein?
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We're working on it.
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We're working on it.
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No,
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No,
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you know,
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you know,
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that is the same with Pinocchio.
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that is the same with Pinocchio.
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It's a thing that was taken by me at a very early age.
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is a thing that I it was taken by me at a very early age so at this point is biography at this point is it's as ingested and part of me as it could be
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So at this point is biography. At this point is... It's as ingested and part of me as it could be. And what I can tell you is when I sat down with Alexander,
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And what I can tell you is when I sat down with Alexander, what we do is break it out in themes.
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what we do is break it out in themes.
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This is the theme for this character,
- Speaker #9
This is the theme for this character, this is for this.
- Speaker #10
this is for this. Not always sticking to that.
- Speaker #9
Not always sticking to that. And then we play with that.
- Speaker #10
And then we play with that. That's where we are right now.
- Speaker #9
That's where we are right now.
- Speaker #5
Yeah,
- Speaker #6
Yeah,
- Speaker #5
the only thing I could say is that
- Speaker #6
the only thing I could say is that
- Speaker #5
Guillermo's cinema is very lyrical.
- Speaker #6
Guillermo's cinema is very lyrical. and my music is rather lyrical too so
- Speaker #5
And my music is rather lyrical too. So
- Speaker #6
I think the music of Frankenstein will be something very lyrical and emotional
- Speaker #5
I think the music of Frankenstein will be something very lyrical. and you know and emotional. You know, I'm not trying to write horrific music or...
- Speaker #6
I'm not trying to write horrific music that's something we can do but we can try something else maybe somebody asked me the other day
- Speaker #5
That's something we can do, but we can try something else,
- Speaker #9
maybe. Somebody asked me the other day...
- Speaker #10
Does it have really scary scenes?
- Speaker #9
Does it have really scary scenes?
- Speaker #10
For the first time,
- Speaker #9
For the first time,
- Speaker #10
I consider that.
- Speaker #9
I consider that.
- Speaker #10
It's an emotional story for me.
- Speaker #9
It's an emotional story for me. It's as personal as anything.
- Speaker #10
It's as personal as anything.
- Speaker #9
I'm asking a question about being a father,
- Speaker #10
I'm asking a question about being a father,
- Speaker #9
being a son.
- Speaker #10
being a son.
- Speaker #9
Things that are...
- Speaker #10
Things that are...
- Speaker #9
I'm not doing a horror movie,
- Speaker #10
I'm not doing a horror movie,
- Speaker #9
ever.
- Speaker #10
ever. I'm not trying to do that.
- Speaker #9
I'm not trying to do that. So the same thing with the music.
- Speaker #10
So the same thing with the music. We're finding the emotion.
- Speaker #9
We're finding the emotion.
- Speaker #10
What I can say for me is it's an incredibly emotional movie.
- Speaker #9
What I can say for me is it's an incredibly emotional movie. Yeah,
- Speaker #10
Yeah,
- Speaker #9
I mean,
- Speaker #10
I mean,
- Speaker #9
I remember the first time I thought
- Speaker #10
I remember the first time I thought I was going to avenge the creature was when Marilyn Monroe is coming out on the seven-year itch with Tony Leung.
- Speaker #9
I was going to avenge the creature was when Marilyn Monroe is coming out on the seven-year itch with Tony Leung.
- Speaker #10
And she says,
- Speaker #9
And she says, the creature just needed somebody to like him.
- Speaker #10
the creature just needed somebody to like him.
- Speaker #9
I fell in love with Marilyn and I fell in love with the creature in that scene at a very early age.
- Speaker #10
I fell in love with Marilyn and I fell in love with the creature in that scene at a very early age.
- Speaker #9
And I thought,
- Speaker #10
And I thought... You know,
- Speaker #9
you know,
- Speaker #10
all we have is people that look at people the wrong way.
- Speaker #9
all we have is people that look at people the wrong way.
- Speaker #10
That's what we have in this world.
- Speaker #9
That's what we have in this world.
- Speaker #10
You know,
- Speaker #9
You know,
- Speaker #10
you consider something and you make it real.
- Speaker #9
you consider something and you make it real. Monsters,
- Speaker #10
Monsters,
- Speaker #9
you know,
- Speaker #10
you know,
- Speaker #9
to me are the perfect way to speak about this.
- Speaker #10
to me are the perfect way to speak about this.