- Malgorzata (guest)
"I love the psychological aspect of the costume. You can dig into somebody's head and create something unique."
- Céleste (host)
Malgorzata Karpiuk is a Polish costume designer and stylist. She has dressed characters that go through extreme situations and some of the darkest hours of our history, like in Academy Award winner film, The Zone of Interest. I'm delighted to have you on Profession Costumière today. Welcome.
- Malgorzata (guest)
Hello. Welcome.
- Céleste (host)
So my first question is actually about your early career. I was curious to know how you became a costume designer. What led you to this profession? So, I started in the fashion industry.
- Malgorzata (guest)
I started in the fashion industry. I started in the fashion I didn't know that I will become the costume designer, but there was something, you know, specific when I was really young. But I always felt that I am some kind of interested in art and I am connected to the art. And first of all, I was thinking that I was always focused on the pictures and paintings. And I was thinking that I'm going to be a photographer. So I put a lot of effort to develop photography and everything, but finally I finished the studies and it was linguistic, so totally different thing. And because of the few circumstances, maybe I was not so brave to go into art after high school, I am thinking, but... When I was studying linguistics, I went to Warsaw. I moved to Warsaw because I'm from a small city close to the Georgian border. So when I went to Warsaw, I started to meet people from all the different industries. And then I met my friend who was a stylist. And because of him, Everything started, I just, you know, I was searching what I want to do in my life, like a typical teenager who doesn't want to, who didn't know what to do in the life. I just was focused on the art and then I met him and I mean, because of him, you know, he asked me, oh, would you please help me do this commercial? And I just started to help him and I made it just click like that. And I felt okay. And I just I like it. I understand that there is something that I, it's become my passion. So it just started by the accident, but maybe there's no accident.
- Céleste (host)
And so you started, you said, doing some stylism and also working for some commercials. And then you started also working for movies. And today I identified you worked on various films and also series. I identified three films I wanted to ask you about, but of course, Jalpreetoo also bringing other experiences. So the first movie I wanted to ask you about is called Essential Killing. And Essential Killing is a movie by Jerzy Skolimowski with Valson Gayot. And I was curious about this experience. So the movie, for those who haven't seen it, is about an Afghan war prisoner that's played by Valson Gayot, who attempts to escape. And it's directed by one of the most famous Polish directors, Jerzy Skolimowski. who is mainly known for Deep End and EO, for instance. So I was curious to know how you got involved on that project.
- Malgorzata (guest)
It's really nice that you ask me about this project. I was the assistant of Anne Hamre, a really great costume designer from Norway. It was a co-production because sometimes it's happening, you know, that the movies need co-producers from different countries. So the costume designer was from Norway, so she came to Poland and the Polish production asked a few people to let her work with her and I was dedicated to her as a... assistant and it was something special you know i was young i was 23 or 24 and i was working you know with the Jerzy Skolimoski which is really well known and great great director and i met Anne and it was it was for me like a new experience to from the beginning you know i didn't in fact i didn't know how to behave and how to work in this kind of big movie but i just felt that okay i will put everything I will do everything to try my best. The funny story is that when I was in France, because I went to see the Perifoto, a very famous song was Honey Honey by Vincent Gallo. I was just listening during this ParisPhoto, his song, and I thought, okay, you know what? I would love to meet him. And it was the wish that came true after a few years. It was amazing because when I... got the information that, okay, there will be the movie, Barierze Skolimowsky, fantasy director, and the main role will be the Vincent Gallo, I thought, how is it possible, you know, that my some kind of dream came true? It is like... And it happened in France.
- Céleste (host)
I'm really happy to hear and indeed it's a crazy coincidence. And something I was wondering about of the costume of this film is because it's kind of a survival movie, the character goes into all the worst things like frozen water, snow, blood, and then I think there's a lot of impact of that on the costumes. So I was wondering how it was like, I guess there was a patina team, you had to have a lot of. different versions of the same costume? Like, how did it go? Was it very complicated or not so much?
- Malgorzata (guest)
Yeah, so I mean, yeah, this was a really hard movie and to be honest, we didn't have such a big team. So it was more like we were not, yeah, we were not so big team. But the patina was really important. So for example, from the technical side, to save and to help the actor playing in this kind of really tough environment, of course, we gave him lots of special layers of the costumes. underwear to keep him and he has special socks which you know were the best socks in Europe like that to keep him warm and but there was also pistons that we were shooting outside and in fact it was really strong winter that time in Poland the soil combined us. 12 or minus 20 and there was a scene that they are playing you know without the shoes or foot and he did it like that so those are really it was really important to help to this and gala and to other actors and extras to survive in this reading be tough But about Patina, for example, she's playing in the white uniform. It's really long part in the movie. Finally, we have both the same outfits, but with different stage of Patina. And the last one, it was like the final scene, the last patina did Jerzy Skolimowski, because it was really, maybe the structure of the patina he did. He's the painter, great painter. And we were shooting in, because as you know, that's... It's never like that the movie is shooting directly scene by scene, but sometimes we are like jumping from one scene to another scene. And it happened that we should prepare the costume for one of the last scenes with this big patina. So I couldn't guess how it's gonna look like because there was like a killing part. It was like he was escaping, he was under the water. So it was really hard to guess. So then I just asked Kiezer. Mr. Jarmin, could you please predict how it's gonna look like? And he just... I gave him the blood, the fake blood, and he just did like a fine first painting on the... on his costume, which was more like a cross, maybe symbolic as well. And then it was the best to prepare the next costumes.
- Céleste (host)
Wow, it's very interesting to hear. So then jumping to another movie you worked on, it's called Quo Vadis Aida, done in 2020 by Jasmina Zbanic. So the movie was awarded at Venice Film Festival, the TIFF also nominated at the Academy Awards. And the movie is set in 1995 and it follows a UN translator in... Srebrenica during the Srebrenica massacre where 8,000 people were killed during one month, the month of July. So again, I was curious of how you approached such a topic on a costume perspective.
- Malgorzata (guest)
So I was, I mean, the story was that when I first saw the script, the script was so great, so amazing that I just, I was just really interested to work on it on the script. And somehow, no, the all-boss act happened in 95. It's something that I remember from 95. I remember that I was, for example, going for the holidays with my parents to Greece by the car. And then we were like, we were on the way. My parents said, okay, but we cannot. go through those countries and I said why? Because there is the war. And then how it's possible that the war is so close to Poland? How I am closing and I am just passing by the country where is the war. So there's some kind of memories that I had and also from TVs and from my parents. conversations, but when I saw the script, then I started to do the research and I found that there is a lot of archives, a lot of materials and articles and pictures from this war. So from one side it was not so... If you have the base like that, then it's easy to recreate something. But still the main idea was to be as much as close to... And to reality, and just as Banwitch and Christina Meyer with the OP, they really wanted to shoot it more as a documentary movie a little bit. So that's why there is a feeling that, you know, we were really, really close to the main character. But there was lots of problems. There's always a lot of issues, how to get the costumes and how to do it.
- Céleste (host)
And in terms of creating the costume, which approach also you mentioned that there were some budget constraints, are stairs always. So did you use vintage clothes from that time? Did you create new ones, shopped it? How did you proceed?
- Malgorzata (guest)
So in this case, what I saw on the pictures that, you know, this war was really colorful. It was like 95, it was in the middle of summer. I saw lots of women, you know, in the colorful costumes. There was really characteristic also a costume named Dimie, which was typical for the women, Muslim women. And I saw a lot of in that region. And then I thought, okay, so let's do this, let's shot this bar a little bit differently than all of the world that we know, because a lot of movies that were done about this topic are black and white or gray or very, very dramatic. And in this case, we really wanted to achieve the feeling that this War is really modern, you know, that it can happen everywhere. So, in fact, there was something that helped me, because the 90s are quite popular now in the shops. So I found a lot of costumes and a lot of... even plain t-shirts in the color that I like. Sometimes it was more strongest colors, which are more like from 80s. So I did the base with costumes, with the t-shirts, sweaters, blouses from the shops. And then I started to do the deep research and to find the rest, which was quite interesting, because in Bochnia, for example, a lot of people are keeping the costumes and they are generally keeping the clothes and they are keeping the things after the war. So some of the pieces I found in the basements of the people, some clothes for the main characters, which are original from 80s and 90s, I found them. In the old markets there are lots of people who are selling all the time things. So it was like I was really digging, digging in the basement, digging in the really unexpected places to find the costumes and it was really big place. And in general, we had something around like 5000 extras. So that's why this base was really important to have. We just tried with my great team. We were just trying our best to find all the pieces almost everywhere. And for example, those I had a problem with them. With the fabric for the Radkom Ladzic uniform, I couldn't find it and Polish company, which I asked to prepare the fabric, like to design the fabric, did it, but it was not. Correct, as I wanted to see, or it was not as I imagined it. And for example, I found this fabric in the attic of one barn in Serbia by accident. There was like 14 meters of original fabric that I had possibly done to suit the uniform. So there's a lot of co-accidents and a lot of... strange situations in Bosnia and Serbia.
- Céleste (host)
Wow. It's amazing. It must have been very big emotions when you found those authentic fabrics and clothes, it really sounds like an investigation as well.
- Malgorzata (guest)
Yeah, it was really, it was really like investigation and I really would like to go thanks to my team who were really involved and the team who were aging the costumes because people who age now even like a... a thousand or maybe a thousand but uh i'd say thousands of costumes it's really it was really big deal but yeah we tried our best
- Céleste (host)
And now moving on to one of your latest films, so Zone of Interest by Jonathan Glazer. So you created the costume for this Academy Award winner movie that follows the life of Auschwitz camp director and his family. And for those who haven't seen the movie, it's very, very special and powerful. And it focuses on the family life. And they have like a lovely home and garden next to the concentration camp. And we never go. on the other side of the wall. So you really stay with that family so that just people can have a little bit of an idea of what the movie looks like. So first, how did you get on board of such a unique project?
- Malgorzata (guest)
Once again, it was a co-production between Poland and the UK. And it was a successful competition of the casting for the hosting designer because the director is very well known. A director who really was working on this project for more than six years, he really wanted to work with somebody that he cannot pass. But it was not easy from the beginning because when you are working in such an emotional topic, you really want to have that. team that you that you feel that we're gonna follow your your ideas so it was co-production we had a couple of meetings and finally after second or third or fourth we decided okay so we we're gonna work together so it was not easy but yeah it was not easy but it's just you know co-production thing
- Céleste (host)
Congratulations then for winning, let's say, this costume designer competition. And I was wondering if you could share a little bit of the discussions, because I guess there were so many discussions before shooting the movie with maybe the director and like the set decoration team, the camera operations team, the actors about the costumes. So could you share a little bit about that?
- Malgorzata (guest)
Yeah, I mean, it was really unique and specific. because of the method. And we were shooting simultaneously on 10 cameras, so there's like almost 360 degrees of visibility all the time. And what... What was the main idea of the Jonathan Glazer? Like to really build... he just said, okay, let's create a world that we really feel that it's now, even it's in 43. And really important was that we... the base... it was based on the... and his book, but also it was based on the real story. And during the process of creating the costumes and creating them. In the script we found out that there are lots of original pictures of the family which are in Auschwitz Museum. So it was the base for us, what we wanted to create and what we want to achieve. We want to create something which is as much as close to the reality and to the truth. It's just the first time. And we had a lot of discussions with a production designer, with DOP, with Gajol as well, about how it's gonna look like. And finally, I just realized that it would be like, I don't want to say that big brother in the Nazi house, but there was like one... There was the idea that we are just observing the people and it would be hyper-realistic. And I saw it in the light, because there was no light, there was no fake light, there was a natural light. And I saw this in the cameras. in the optic that they were using and they saw this also in Benat and Glazer way of hitting the actors and working with the actors that he really wanted to to see normal people, not people, not actors who are playing but normal people who are in the in this house and it was, I felt it in all of the stages of my work now. And I was creating the costumes when we were on the shooting because there was no typical The shooting place was just, we prepared one villa. And for example, in this part with the Hess family, we were shooting in the villa, which was prepared for the shooting, but there was no team, there was no cameras, cameras were hidden, the focus filters were in the basement. So it was not a typical set.
- Céleste (host)
And I read also like an article of the actress Sandra Huller and she said she had never accepted a Nazi part before because she always found that those productions are usually very glamorized. And I believe you mentioned hyper realism and I think it's something that you really all dedicated great efforts to like no glamorization, authenticity, kind of rawness. So I guess also this really illustrates in your costume work in the movie, right?
- Malgorzata (guest)
Yes, at every stage of my work, I wanted to emphasize the characters, ordinaries. I just approached them without any special embarrassment. So for me, they were just normal people. And the picture that we know from most of the movies that I saw are... Now when we see the Nazi people and the soldiers, they are better than the normal people. They are better dressed, they behave better and we feel that okay, so they are really stronger than we are. And what Jonathan wants to show that they are normal people and normal people can be good, can be wrong, can be demons and the devils and can be the angels at the same point. So it was really important for us to all of them. movie team to make, to create and to make them, those people look like normal people. To show for the audience that, okay, it could be me or it could be my neighbor and he was not a special guy. I mean, she was not a special woman.
- Céleste (host)
And something I was also thinking preparing the interview is that, so as I said in the beginning, we never see the prisoners because we never go on the other side of the wall. But we hear them. The sound work on the film is amazing. And we see some of their clothes because the main character played by Sandra Hulder, so she keeps some of the clothes for herself. There is a very strong scene in the beginning of the film where she gets a mink coat and she tries it on, watches herself in the mirror. And also she gets clothes from the prisoners and she gives them to her household staff to share. Those are some of the most striking images, at least for me, from the movie. And I was wondering how you chose those specific garments, which kind of embody the people that we'll never see in the film.
- Malgorzata (guest)
I mean, it was also work between my team and the production designer team and, for example, with the fur. I mean, it was the symbol of all of the furs and it was the symbol of all of the clothes that was grabbed from the prisoners. So we had the conversation with Jonathan Glazer, the director of the furs. My first imagination was that the furs should be shorter, maybe flat, maybe not so. beautiful and glamorous. And then he said, no, it should be this far. It should be like a big, beautiful, it should be the symbol of all the... clothes and the things which belong to the prisoners. So that's why in this movie there's a lot of small, in the small words or in the small things, it's a big meaning. So it was this, but, and you mentioned there is no prisoners, for example, We have one scene in the streets and we don't see the prisoners but in fact there's like a dozen of prisoners that we dressed as prisoners with boots and with the striped costumes. And they were still in the water because they were in the water. So we never saw them, but we felt them. And Jonathan said, no, even we don't see them, they should be dressed as a prisoner.
- Céleste (host)
Thank you for sharing. So it's amazing to see he just adds up to the level of detail and the, yes, the quality of the work. It's amazing also to know that you also dressed those prisoners that we don't see on screen. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. So I see you have other projects coming up and I saw one that was for me especially exciting. It's called Treasure and it's going to be out soon. I saw it in June and it has an amazing cast. So Lena Dunham, the director of Girls and Stephen Fry. And I saw it tells a story of an American journalist. It's called Rose. She travels to Poland with her father Edek to visit his childhood place. But Erek is a Holocaust survivor, resists relieving his trauma and sabotages, and the trip creates unintentionally funny situations. It seems amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about this experience?
- Malgorzata (guest)
Oh, yes. You know, I got the proposition or the first conversation with Julia von Hines, the director, was 3D like three or four years ago. And it was the moment when I was preparing the Zone of Interest. So, in one scene the main character Ruth, played by Lena Dunham, she is reading the biography of Rudolf Hess, of the commandant of the Auschwitz from the zone of interest. So then I thought, oh, how it's possible, you know, that this person or like this topic is following me. And somehow I treated this project as a trilogy because I did also the movie about the kids who survived the Holocaust, the Grossrosse. The first movie was about the kids, then it was like in the camp about the little class, and then I had the possibility to work with the survivor from Holocaust and there is still a little. So I didn't know if I should do, what I should think about in my career, why I am like following this subject so much. But I really like the script and I think that this is the movie. I don't know. I mean, what do you think you about this movie? Because I like that the survivor, this is not the typical drama. It's not the movie that puts you that you are sad or you are unhappy or you are. and you don't feel comfortable, like, for example, in zone of interest, I really loved the relationship and how was within between the roof and attic. And yeah, so it was quite interesting as well to jump once again in beginning of the 90s in Poland and to see, you know, this from different perspective. And it was really great fun, especially with Lena and Stephen. And we were sitting in Germany. And for example, we were shooting some locations which should be in Poland and Germany. So then I thought, okay, how different, how coincidental, why we are just doing this opposite.
- Céleste (host)
And again, the story is set on the 90s. So was it a similar, were you again like lucky in the sense that there's a lot of Vintage clothes and also modern clothes inspired by the 90s right now, was it helpful for you?
- Malgorzata (guest)
I mean, in this case, it's really nice because we have in Poland few rental houses which offer really great clothes and costumes from 80s and 90s. And I was thinking, you know, because in the script, Poland is really sad and maybe, you know, not so modern country, there was no need to make it look better than it was even in the 90s. It was more to show contrast between Lena and Edek and Beyoor of England than existed in Poland. So that's why I used a lot of costumes which I found only in Poland. I didn't search anywhere else. So I was just trying to find them in the rental houses, in the second hands. I have also my own collection. In my small place, let's say so, some of the costumes were done, for example, in the zone of interest, most of the costumes were made from crutch. Most of the costumes were designed. because I couldn't find them in rental houses. In this case it was much, much, much easier. And somehow, you know, we like in Poland this period. We just, you know, we love to dig inside this period. We have lots of, you know, this set, costumes, which are... Which reminds us, you know, the really, really sad moment in Poland. So it was quite funny. And also I love this movie because it has a lot of comedy aspects. So that's why also the costumes were, it was just great fun, like to do the costumes for the really important movie about a really important topic and with beautiful relationship and. between the thunder and butter, but as well, I love this comedy aspect. So let's see what you're going to think.
- Céleste (host)
I can't wait to see it. You mentioned sketching. Is it your creative approach preparing the characters'wardrobes? Do you always go through the phase of sketching? Do you also do mood boards? Does it depend on the project?
- Malgorzata (guest)
Yeah, it's always depend on the project. I mean, sometimes I do sketches, sometimes just, you know, in the mood boards. Yeah, it's more like, yeah, so it's, it's, it's depend on, and also it's depend on the director and maybe, you know, the relationship and imaginary.
- Céleste (host)
And you mentioned you had your own little stock, like collection of costumes. I'm always curious about this. I know some of the costume designer I interviewed also have one. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Like how big is it in terms of number of pieces? Do you have specific areas that you're focused in? And also, were you able to keep some of the costumes after some productions?
- Malgorzata (guest)
Oh, I would love to have the bigger, the biggest space, but somehow I think that then sometimes I can be trapped in my space. So it's not the big space. It's more like a bigger basement. But with the pieces that I really like, I cannot, you know, go somewhere. And when I see something interesting, it's just, you know, it can broke my heart when I see that, okay, somebody, especially when we are talking about pieces from 80s or 90s. which were done with better fabric than they are now. So I am more focused on finding the pieces which are in the good quality and from the good fabrics. Because I see how looks now, you know, the industry and how many clothes are. I mean, how the big companies are using the clothes and they are in bad conditions and fabrics are not in such a great quality. So in this case, when I see the clothes, the costume or some kind of ink which is made from the boot fabric or I can use it somehow. It's specific and beautiful. I tried to buy it and I'm keeping it for the special moment.
- Céleste (host)
And touching upon fashion, you were also a stylist.
- Malgorzata (guest)
I started as a stylist when I was younger. So I did a few sessions, photo shootings. But then I found that there's something that I don't like. I love the psychological aspect of the costume. I like to see how the costume moves. And so then I thought, okay, so it's not my thing. My goal in my career, I didn't like it. I just, yeah, and then I saw that I really like the longest process of... of doing, of creating and the sessions are smallest and dedicated just to fashion. And I just felt that I wanted to go into the movie, but I had this episode in my life.
- Céleste (host)
And to wrap up the interviews, I have a few questions about more your tastes in costume design in general. So the first question is, is there any movie, TV series, costume that you really like and that inspire you that you especially cherish?
- Malgorzata (guest)
So I was thinking now because the first movie or maybe the most significant movie for me was the Queen Margot by Patrice Chirot. And when I was young I saw this movie and I really... There was something happened that I decided, okay, I mean, this is the thing that I love. I love the costumes from historical costumes from Renaissance, from Baroque. So this is the thing and this is the costume that I love the most. And I think that this is the movie that has a really big impact on me when I was young. And still I think that the costumes and the movie is beautiful and great.
- Céleste (host)
Great. Any other title that comes to your mind or focusing on La Reine-Margot?
- Malgorzata (guest)
So, for example, there was like the Favorites by Lantimos, which also use, you know, the costume, the historical costume, but in the way that I love, you know. So this is the example of how to recreate something or how to create something in this really specific aesthetic idea. In general. I don't have the specific titles. I just like, sometimes I like the movies where I don't see the costumes at all. And they are really important. Like, somehow I like French movies, you know. And I love the French way of showing the characters.
- Céleste (host)
And is there any specific costume that you designed yourself and especially like?
- Malgorzata (guest)
There is one movie that I did, Dolce Fiorina Giornata by Polish director Jacek Borcuk and we were fitting in Italy and the story is about Maria Linde who won the Nobel Prize and she's an artist and she's writing the novels. And she was played by really well-known Polish actress, And she's really well-known and she's in the theaters and she's really experienced. And it was really hard to find her costumes a little bit because she played so many roles and she was so, she's so characteristic. So together with the makeup artists, we changed her hairstyle to do the piercing. And then by the accident, or maybe not by the accident, I found her coat, a blue-sandal coat, vintage one, who was in the same color of the palette of the walls of the small city that she lived in. And somehow this costume combined For me, you know, her as an immigrant living in Italy and somehow she as a person who has the style. So in fact, I like this modern costume the most and I'm really proud of it. And yeah, so it's Maria Linde costume, Maria Linde coat by Jil Sander, vintage in Dolce Fiorina Giornata.
- Céleste (host)
And what do you like most about your job as a costume designer?
- Malgorzata (guest)
It will be much easier to answer what I love and hate. Because I mean, most of the costumes or the people who are passionate about their jobs, love and hate the same things at the same point. For example, I love the process of working, of creating. That sometimes, of course, I hate it because, you know... to doubt all the time yourself, you know, it's good or not. You know, the pressure, which sometimes I love because I love the deadlines. Otherwise, I never did it. The things till the end, I love it and sometimes I hate it. But in general, I love, you know, this opportunity to explore the topics. I love to work with creative people. And when I had this whole crisis, you know, this job crisis, you know, war crisis, middle-aged crisis or whatever, and I was thinking, okay, what am I doing in my life? You know, I am not saving the world, I am not saving the people's life. And then I met my teacher from my high school and he said, okay, but you know, but you are doing something for people like... Thanks. To feel better, maybe to make them smile or you create something that can help you, you can a little bit save the soul of the people who don't know what to do with their time a little bit. So then I started to think that I love that. I just create something and I can show something to other people with my knowledge. And yeah, but in general, I also like, you know, this psychological aspects of the character that you can dig into somebody's head and to create something unique.
- Céleste (host)
And is there any specific kind of project you'd like to work on and why?
- Malgorzata (guest)
So, you know, maybe it's just a child dream and to be a princess. So maybe I would like to move, you know, from, you know, this Baroque and Renaissance. Yeah, because I just did the commercial with the costumes like that, but never did like, you know, the Laren Margot. So maybe it will be some beautiful to at least once touch, you know, this kind of costumes.
- Céleste (host)
Thank you, Malgorzata, for sharing your experience, inspiration and love for investigation in detail. If you liked this episode, follow Profession Costumier for more episodes exploring costume design. You can also subscribe to Profession Costumier on Instagram and Substack, and leave 5 stars and a comment on your favorite listening platform. Until next time!
