Description

Welcome to "Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast." In today's episode, we delve into the fascinating history of Geneva in the 16th century, a time when the city was grappling with cleanliness and hygiene issues. This podcast explores the challenges faced by Genevan authorities during the Reformation, from 1536 to 1600, in maintaining the cleanliness of the streets. Discover the ordinances put in place to compel residents to clean in front of their homes, the efforts to pave the streets, and the complex management of public toilets. We will also examine how these measures became crucial during plague epidemics, and how they shaped Geneva's urban environment. A captivating dive into the origins of urban hygiene and the persistent challenges of keeping a city clean in the face of its population's habits.

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This historical popularization podcast is developed as part of the interdisciplinary project entitled "A semantic and multilingual online edition of the Registers of the Council of Geneva / 1545-1550" (RCnum) and developed by the University of Geneva (UNIGE), as part of funding from the Swiss National Scientific Research Fund (SNSF). For more information: https://www.unige.ch/registresconseilge/en.

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Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

• Speaker #0

  All right, let's jump into another deep dive. Okay. And today we're going to be looking at something that might be a little bit unexpected. We're going to be diving into sanitation practices in 16th century Geneva. Dang. So get ready to be surprised because what we think of as dirty medieval times might be a lot more complex than you think. Okay. And we're going to be using these amazing city council records from Geneva.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, very cool.

• Speaker #0

  You know, minutes of meetings, ordinances, even complaints from grumpy neighbors. Right. We've all have them.

• Speaker #1

  I love those. Those are always fun. They're the best. Yeah. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So these records really offer a fascinating glimpse into daily life.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Especially when it comes to everything that comes out of humans and animals. So imagine Geneva, bustling city, heart of the Reformation. Right. John Calvin preaching his sermons. Yeah. but also people tossing their scraps out the window, keeping manure piles in the street. Okay. How does that compute? Were they truly a dirty city or were they actually ahead of their time in terms of public health? That's what we're here to figure out.

• Speaker #1

  That's the question, isn't it? Yeah. It's interesting because when we think about waste disposal back then, it was very different. For one thing, there were no garbage cans as we know them.

• Speaker #0

  So just throwing it in the street?

• Speaker #1

  Pretty much. The word garbage wouldn't even exist for another 300 years. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  wow. Right? Interesting. Yeah. Okay, so no designated bins. No. But paved streets. Right. I'm picturing something like those charming cobblestone streets you see in Europe, but with occasional surprises. Well,

• Speaker #1

  you're actually spot on. Okay. Yeah, by the mid-1500s, Geneva City Council was pushing hard to pave the streets. In fact, residents were required. to pave in front of their homes. The council saw this as a key step towards a cleaner, more orderly city.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so maybe not the open sewers and piles of film. Not quite. We often imagine. Right. But what about those manure piles? The records mention them quite a bit. Right. Were they just ignoring the smell?

• Speaker #1

  Well, the smell was definitely a concern, but it wasn't their only... motivation. So the city council actually saw manure as a valuable resource. Farmers would use it to fertilize their fields.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, so it's like pre-modern recycling. Yeah. Interesting.

• Speaker #1

  Remember, this was long before the days of synthetic fertilizers.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, right. Right. So that actually connects to the modern debate about composting and urban farming. Yeah. Who knew 16th century Genevans were so eco-conscious?

• Speaker #1

  Well, and what's fascinating is their approach to waste wasn't simply about- disposal. They were trying to integrate it back into the cycle of life. So it raises the question, what if their waste was actually less wasteful than our modern methods?

• Speaker #0

  It really makes you think, right? We were so focused on keeping things separate, trash here, compost there. But maybe there's something to be said for that more integrated approach. Okay. But I have to ask about those geese and pigs roaming the streets. Was that just

• Speaker #1

  part of the city's charm not exactly yeah um the city council minutes show them struggling to regulate these free-ranging animals they recognized that having livestock wandering around could contribute to unsanitary conditions but it seems like it was a constant battle like trying to get people to pick up after their dogs today so they were already grappling with that tension between individual freedoms yeah

• Speaker #0

  and public health concerns.

• Speaker #1

  It's like a time capsule. Oh, it is. Like city planning dilemmas. It really is. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. And it wasn't just about the animals. Okay. The council records also reveal their concern for human waste disposal.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. Let's dive into that.

• Speaker #1

  Which, as you might imagine, was a bit more complex.

• Speaker #0

  Tell me about these ISINCs and pre-vays, the terms that they used for toilets.

• Speaker #1

  So these terms provide a window into their sanitation infrastructure. Yeah. Public toilets or ISINCs were a source of constant debris. debate.

• Speaker #0

  So where to put them?

• Speaker #1

  Where to put them? Yeah. Placing them was a balancing act. Yeah. Close enough for convenience, but far enough to avoid unpleasantness.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I can only imagine the complaints. Right. Is the records mention anything?

• Speaker #1

  Unfortunately, that remains a bit of a mystery. Okay. Yeah. The records don't specify any cleaning methods. Gotcha. But what we do see are disputes between neighbors. Okay. Over the placement and condition of private toilets.

• Speaker #0

  It seems some things never change.

• Speaker #1

  It seems not.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's almost comforting to know that people have always been complaining about their neighbors. Yeah. But it also humanizes these historical figures. Yeah. They weren't just names in a textbook. They were dealing with real-life problems. Right. Just like us.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it really does. And those disputes over toilets highlight another recurring theme in city council records. Constant struggle to balance individual needs with the well-being of the community.

• Speaker #0

  It's like that old saying. Yeah. Your freedom to swing your fist. Yeah. Ends where my nose begins. Right. Or in this case, maybe it's your freedom to have a smelly toilet. Ends where my fresh air begins.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And it's fascinating to see how the city council tried to navigate these issues. They're constantly weighing competing interests and making decisions that impacted the lives of everyone in Geneva.

• Speaker #0

  So they were like early urban planners. grappling with the same dilemmas we face today yeah things like zoning laws yeah noise ordinances yeah even building codes yeah speaking of which i'm curious about those plague outbreaks they were dealing with yeah how did that impact well you have to remember that their understanding of disease was very different from ours right they didn't have the germ theory of disease okay so they didn't know about

• Speaker #1

  They didn't know about bacterial and viruses.

• Speaker #0

  So how did they explain the spread of illness?

• Speaker #1

  They had various theories often involving bad air or imbalances in the body, but they did recognize that filth and disease often went hand in hand. That's why they were so focused on keeping the streets clean and regulating things like that. Manure piles and stray animals.

• Speaker #0

  Like the pre-scientific versions of public health initiatives.

• Speaker #1

  Precisely.

• Speaker #0

  They were trying to control what they could, even if they didn't fully understand the mechanisms behind it.

• Speaker #1

  And this brings us to one of the most striking examples of their efforts to combat disease. The order to kill all stray dogs and cats in the city in 1543.

• Speaker #0

  That seems incredibly harsh.

• Speaker #1

  It was a drastic measure.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, I know they were dealing with a plague outbreak. Absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  But you have to remember the context. Right. Plague was a terrifying and deadly disease that they were desperate to stop its spread. Right. And based on their understanding at the time, they believed that animals could transmit the disease.

• Speaker #0

  It's a reminder that our perception of what's ethical and acceptable is constantly evolving. Yeah. Right. What seems barbaric to us today might have been seen as a necessary act of public health back then.

• Speaker #1

  It also highlights the power of fear. Yeah. In shaping public policy when people are afraid. Right. They're often willing to accept measures that they might otherwise find objectionable.

• Speaker #0

  Right.

• Speaker #1

  But let's shift gears a bit. OK. While those drastic measures stand out. It's important to remember that the city council was also engaged in more mundane but equally important sanitation efforts. Like what. For instance the records detail. OK. Their efforts to ensure that private toilets those prebays we were discussing earlier. Yeah. We're. properly constructed and maintained they even had inspectors who would go into people's homes to check for compliance talk about invasive they would certainly raise some eyebrows would you imagine a city inspector coming into your home today right to check your toy but for them it was all part of their mission to create a healthier and more sanitary city right and while their methods might seem intrusive to us yeah they did reflect a genuine concern for the well-being of the community so they were basically walking a tightrope

• Speaker #0

  between personal freedom and public health.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  Just like we do today. Yeah. It's amazing to think about those parallels.

• Speaker #1

  That's precisely what makes these historical records so relevant. They remind us that the challenges we face today are not entirely new. They're part of a long and complex human story. And understanding that story can give us valuable insights into our own time.

• Speaker #0

  So what can we learn from those 16th century Genevans? Yeah. had their manure piles and well questionable methods best control but they're also striving to create yeah a clean and healthy environment right what's the takeaway here i think the key takeaway is that yeah progress isn't always linear the

• Speaker #1

  genovans might not have had our scientific understanding of disease yeah or our technological solutions but they were making genuine efforts to improve their lives right And in some ways, their approach to waste management with its emphasis on reuse and integration might actually be more sustainable than our current practices.

• Speaker #0

  So maybe those manure piles weren't so bad after all.

• Speaker #1

  It's all a matter of perspective, right?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. What seems gross to one generation might be seen as animative.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely.

• Speaker #0

  Or even eco-friendly by another.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. It really makes you wonder what future generations will think of our plastic water bottles and our... Disposable coffee cups.

• Speaker #1

  I wouldn't be surprised. It's all about perspective and the evolution of societal norms. Right. What we consider clean or dirty is constantly being redefined by new knowledge, technology and cultural values.

• Speaker #0

  So as we wrap up our deep dive into the sanitation practices of 16th century Geneva, what's the big picture takeaway for you?

• Speaker #1

  I think it's a reminder to be humble about our own assumptions. You know, we often look at the past and judge it through the lens of our modern sensibilities. But these city council records show that. Even in a time that we might consider primitive, people were grappling with complex issues. And striving for a better life.

• Speaker #0

  It's like that saying, don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Or maybe in this case, don't judge a city's sanitation practices until you've smelled their manure pile.

• Speaker #1

  It's all about context and understanding. And I think that's the beauty of history. It challenges us to step outside of our own time and place and see the world. through different eyes.

• Speaker #0

  It's been a fascinating journey, hasn't it?

• Speaker #1

  It has.

• Speaker #0

  We went from picturing filthy streets to uncovering a surprisingly complex system of waste management and public health initiatives. Who knew those 16th century Genovans were so forward thinking?

• Speaker #1

  They were dealing with many of same fundamental challenges that we face today with different tools and understanding and their efforts to balance. individual freedoms with the well-being of the community.

• Speaker #0

  Are just as relevant now as they were back then. So the next time you're tempted to complain about taking out the trash, sorting your recycling, think of those genovins and their manure piles. Exactly. It might just give you a new perspective on our modern conveniences.

• Speaker #1

  And maybe even inspire you to be a little more mindful of your own impact on the environment. After all, history shows the choices we make today will shape the world. For generations to come.

• Speaker #0

  Well said. Yeah. And on that note. Yeah. We'll leave you to ponder. Okay. The sanitation practices of the future.

• Speaker #1

  All right.

• Speaker #0

  Think of us.

• Speaker #1

  I don't know.

• Speaker #0

  Only time will tell. Yeah. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive into this surprisingly fascinating world. Yeah. Of 16th century sanitation.

• Speaker #1

  It's been fun.

• Speaker #0

  Until next time. Yeah. Keep exploring. Keep questioning and keep diving deep.

• Speaker #1

  Dive deep.