Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Welcome back, everyone. Today, we're diving into something a little different. Well, we're still in the 16th century, but this time we're going fishing. Ooh, fishing. Yeah, but not literally, of course. Yeah. We're going to be looking at the world of fish and fishing in Geneva during the Reformation.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Specifically, use fish and fishing in Geneva at the time of Calvin as our guide. This is a new book. Published just this year by Christophe Cheslon.

• Speaker #1

  Very cool.

• Speaker #0

  Picture this, Geneva. They've just broken free from the Duca Savoy. Okay. And they're right in the thick of Calvin's reforms. And like with any big shakeup, even how they managed something like the fishing was changing.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. It's easy to forget about those like everyday things. Right. But, you know, they can really give us a much better understanding of a historical period than just the big events. Yeah. And this wasn't just about... you know, catching dinner. Fishing rights were a whole complicated mess. Kind of a like a miniature version of the power struggles that were happening everywhere during the Reformation.

• Speaker #0

  OK, so let's let's break that down a little. The book mentions that before the Reformation, you had all these different groups claiming a piece of the the fishing pie.

• Speaker #1

  Right.

• Speaker #0

  You had the bishop, the duke, even a convent and the city council.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  it was like a recipe for conflict.

• Speaker #1

  And there's this one. legal battle that the book highlights that really shows this so the bishop he gives exclusive fishing rights to this guy Basel song Hughes He was actually a pretty important figure in Geneva getting its independence. Okay, so it was supposed to be a reward, right? But then Hughes well, he needs money. So he sells those rights to pay off his debt Oh, yeah, and that sets off this whole chain reaction of like transactions and competing claims It's like a game of hot potato with right fishing rights instead of a potato exactly and this wasn't just some small Disagreement either. Yeah, Geneva City Council got involved They argued that the bishop never had the authority to grant those kinds of rights And they said that the fishing right should actually belong to the city Okay, this even dragged in some big names like Lou did these buff from burn? Oh, wow. They actually had to go to arbitration to settle it.

• Speaker #0

  That's incredible how something that seems so, you know, like fishing rights becomes the stand in for these much bigger power struggles.

• Speaker #1

  You have to remember, this is when Geneva is, you know, trying to figure out who they are, both politically and religiously. Yeah. So controlling resources, even something like fishing, wasn't just about money. Right. It was about showing who's in charge. Yeah. And making a statement about their independence.

• Speaker #0

  So. So even fish got caught up in the Reformation drama.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, you could say that.

• Speaker #0

  Now, this tension with other powers, especially Bern. Right. That doesn't go away even after independence, right?

• Speaker #1

  No, it doesn't. Bern had conquered some of the Duke's old territory. Okay. So they shared administration with Geneva and they clashed over fishing, too. Especially in the Rhone and Arve rivers. Okay. Specifically over the fishing traps they used.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, interesting. What were these traps like?

• Speaker #1

  They called them nasses or nassoir.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, nasses?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and they argued about like where they could be placed and how big they could be. Huh.

• Speaker #0

  Why were these traps such a big deal?

• Speaker #1

  Well, I mean, obviously it was about the economics. Right. Whoever catches more fish, you know, makes more money.

• Speaker #0

  Of course.

• Speaker #1

  But the source also hints that maybe there were some ecological concerns too. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  really?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Although it doesn't go into much detail. Yeah. But it does show that even back then they were thinking about how fishing technology could impact fish populations.

• Speaker #0

  That's so interesting. It's like today's arguments over fishing quotas and sustainable fishing practices.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's this constant balancing act between making money and, you know, making sure there are still fish left to catch. Right. It seems to be a recurring theme throughout history.

• Speaker #0

  So how did Geneva try to manage all this fishing activity?

• Speaker #1

  Well, they set up two main systems. They had the Grand Pêche, which means grand fishing, and the Pêche de McCready, which is literally Wednesday fishing.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so two systems, grand and Wednesday. Tell me more about this.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so grand fishing was kind of like a big Ausha. The city would lease out fishing rights for three years to whoever bid the highest.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, I bet those bidding wars got pretty intense.

• Speaker #1

  I'm sure they did. You can just imagine all these, you know, a... Inspiring fishing tycoons battling it out for the best spot. Yeah. Then you have Wednesday fishing. This one was originally under the Duke's control. Okay. But Geneva took it back after independence. Right. And they also leased it out first annually and then later for three-year periods.

• Speaker #0

  Now, why have two separate systems? And why was Wednesday so special?

• Speaker #1

  Those are good questions. Unfortunately, the source doesn't really tell us for sure, but we can guess. Maybe Wednesday fishing was meant to make sure the city always had a good supply of fish. Okay. Maybe even at a fixed price so that it wouldn't be completely controlled by whoever won the grand fishing lease. That makes sense. Or maybe Wednesday had some special... cultural or religious significance.

• Speaker #0

  You know, it's those unanswered questions that make history so intriguing.

• Speaker #1

  Right. It's like a puzzle with some pieces missing.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. It makes you want to dig deeper and find those missing pieces.

• Speaker #1

  And that's what we're here for.

• Speaker #0

  Speaking of digging deeper, the book mentions something that really surprised me.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  It turns out fish, especially trout, wasn't just food in 16th century Geneva.

• Speaker #1

  It wasn't.

• Speaker #0

  Nope. It was practically a form of currency.

• Speaker #1

  Whoa, wait, what? Like they were trading trout for bread and stuff?

• Speaker #0

  Not exactly. I mean, trout was a luxury good. Okay. Not an everyday food for most people. Right. But it was highly valued as a gift.

• Speaker #1

  A gift. Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Especially in diplomatic circles. Really?

• Speaker #1

  Like they were giving trout to ambassadors and stuff.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. For example, Geneva needed a favor from the president of the Savoy parliament during a legal case involving one of their citizens. So how did they thank him for his help?

• Speaker #1

  Uh, I don't know. A nice letter.

• Speaker #0

  They sent him two trout.

• Speaker #1

  Two trout. Wow. That's interesting.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Trout diplomacy in action.

• Speaker #1

  Huh. Never thought of it that way.

• Speaker #0

  And there are other examples, too. They sent trout along with pastries and capons to Basel. Oh, wow. Hoping to get their support in dealing with, you guessed it, burn.

• Speaker #1

  Burn again.

• Speaker #0

  Always burn. But maybe the most interesting example is the one with the master of the mint in Lyon. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  okay.

• Speaker #0

  He received... a sufficient trout for the kings.

• Speaker #1

  What does that even mean?

• Speaker #0

  They were probably referring to the French king and his court.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, okay.

• Speaker #0

  And why send him all that trout?

• Speaker #1

  Well, I'm guessing they wanted something from him.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. They were hoping to influence currency policies.

• Speaker #1

  So basically, they were trying to sweeten the deal with some delicious diplomacy.

• Speaker #0

  You got it. It really shows how much cultural and symbolic value they placed on fish back then. It wasn't just about filling your stomach. Right. It was about... Building relationships, gaining favor, and navigating the tricky world of power and influence.

• Speaker #1

  It makes you wonder what we use today that's like the trout of the 16th century. Right.

• Speaker #0

  Maybe a rare bottle of wine. Oh, yeah. Or tickets to a sold-out event.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, something that shows you're important and have good taste.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. Now, just like today where we have farmer's markets and rules about where you can buy and sell food. Right. 16th century. Geneva had rules about fish, too.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, really?

• Speaker #0

  Yep. The book mentions the Mullard Marketplace as being the main spot for all things fish.

• Speaker #1

  Makes sense.

• Speaker #0

  And the city council was very specific about making sure things were fair. Okay. They had strict rules about when and where fish could be sold.

• Speaker #1

  Sounds like they were trying to create a level playing field.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, a lot like what we see in markets today. But there's this weird detail in the book. that raises more questions than it answers. I love those. So there were multiple times where the city council refused to give licenses to a chasse marie. A what? A chasse marie. It's a traveling fish merchant.

• Speaker #1

  Oh,

• Speaker #0

  okay. And even though he offered to bring in more fish and expand the market.

• Speaker #1

  Huh. That's strange.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Why would they want to limit the fish supply?

• Speaker #1

  Especially in a city as resource conscious as Geneva.

• Speaker #0

  It really is a head scratcher. Was it about controlling prices? Maybe. Protecting local fishermen? Could be. Or was there something else going on entirely?

• Speaker #1

  It's a mystery.

• Speaker #0

  It's like a historical cliffhanger.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And it's one we're going to have to explore further as we delve deeper into this fascinating world of fish and fishing in 16th century Geneva.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it really makes you think, you know, were they just so afraid of rocking the boat? Yeah. That they would rather just keep things the way they were, even if it meant maybe missing out on some opportunities.

• Speaker #1

  It's like that old saying. The better the devil, you know, or something like that.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. And, you know, this whole idea of control.

• Speaker #1

  It even shows up in how they manage their fish supply.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, you mean like those those serves we talked about?

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Those serves.

• Speaker #0

  Like little underwater pantries.

• Speaker #1

  It was actually pretty smart for the time. Yeah. Keep the fish fresh without having to salt or dry them.

• Speaker #0

  But I bet it wasn't always easy to keep those serves secure.

• Speaker #1

  You're telling me. The book mentions a few cases of people stealing from them.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, really?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah. It seems like people have always had a taste for free food.

• Speaker #0

  I guess some things never change.

• Speaker #1

  But there's this one story about a guy named Gene Kleberger. Okay. He was a wealthy benefactor of Geneva, but he lived in Lyon. Okay. And he had his own serve. All stocked with carp.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, fancy.

• Speaker #1

  Right. But while he was away, someone decided to have a little carp feast.

• Speaker #0

  Oh no, not the Baron's carp.

• Speaker #1

  He was furious. The book says he demanded justice like it was a capital offense.

• Speaker #0

  Wow, he must really loved his carp.

• Speaker #1

  I guess so. But it shows you how important those serves were.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, more than just a way to store fish.

• Speaker #1

  Right. It was about status, maybe even bragging rights.

• Speaker #0

  Like a 16th century version of showing off your fancy car.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And you know, this whole idea of fish being valuable. Yeah. It wasn't just about the serves either. Right.

• Speaker #0

  We talked about how they use trout as gifts.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And they had all those rules about buying and selling fish.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. The Mollard marketplace.

• Speaker #1

  Right. They wanted to keep things fair and orderly.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Like a well-regulated market.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. But then there's this weird thing with the Chesmarais.

• Speaker #0

  Right. The traveling fish merchant.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And they wouldn't give him a license.

• Speaker #0

  Even though he could have brought in more fish. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  It doesn't make a lot of sense.

• Speaker #0

  Unless they were more worried about protecting their own fishermen.

• Speaker #1

  Maybe. Or maybe they were just afraid of change.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. New people, new ideas.

• Speaker #1

  Could be disruptive,

• Speaker #0

  you know. So they chose to stick with what they knew.

• Speaker #1

  It's interesting how their fears and anxieties shaped their decisions, even about something like fish.

• Speaker #0

  It shows that even something that seems simple can be really complicated when you look at the bigger picture.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. And sometimes what's not there. What do you mean? Like what they don't do can tell us just as much as what they do do.

• Speaker #0

  That's a good point. Like we're reading between the lines.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. It's like being a detective.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Trying to understand why people made the choices they did.

• Speaker #1

  And sometimes those choices are full of contradictions.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. People aren't always logical.

• Speaker #1

  Especially when you add in all the historical context.

• Speaker #0

  Right. And the social pressures and personal ambitions.

• Speaker #1

  That all makes for a pretty fascinating story.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Speaking of fascinating stories. Yeah. The book. mentions this incident. Oh, yeah. With Italian and Genevan workers.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah, that one.

• Speaker #0

  Where they get into a fight over fishing techniques.

• Speaker #1

  I love that story. It shows that history is full of these little unexpected twists and turns.

• Speaker #0

  Like a soap opera?

• Speaker #1

  Kind of. So tell me, what do you remember about it?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I remember the Italian workers were using paste as bait. And that upset the Genevan fishermen.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it seems like a weird thing to fight over. I know.

• Speaker #0

  What was so bad about paste?

• Speaker #1

  It's hard to say for sure. Okay. But maybe the Genevan fishermen saw it as unfair. Okay. Like the Italians were cheating or something.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Or maybe they were just worried about competition.

• Speaker #1

  That's probably part of it too.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Jobs and resources were scarce back then.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. And you know, this was also a time of a lot of change.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. With the reformation and everything.

• Speaker #1

  So maybe there was some resentment towards outsiders.

• Speaker #0

  It's like that us versus them mentality.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. And things escalated quickly. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Insults, accusations. And eventually violence.

• Speaker #1

  A woman even got hit with a stone.

• Speaker #0

  It's crazy how a disagreement over bait...

• Speaker #1

  I know, right?

• Speaker #0

  ...could turn into a riot.

• Speaker #1

  It shows you how fragile things were.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, even in a society that was trying to be all about order and reform.

• Speaker #1

  People are still people.

• Speaker #0

  They have their own beliefs and prejudices.

• Speaker #1

  And sometimes those things boil over.

• Speaker #0

  It's a good reminder that history isn't always neat and tidy. Nope.

• Speaker #1

  It's messy and complicated.

• Speaker #0

  And full of surprises.

• Speaker #1

  Speaking of surprises, the book also talks about how new technologies impacted fishing.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, right. Like that paper mill.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, the paper mill.

• Speaker #0

  A sign of progress.

• Speaker #1

  But progress often comes with a price.

• Speaker #0

  So what happened with the paper mill?

• Speaker #1

  Well, it was built in 1538. Okay. And the fishermen started complaining that it was hurting their business.

• Speaker #0

  Really?

• Speaker #1

  Well, the book mentions the noise from the mill. Okay. And also probably the pollution.

• Speaker #0

  Right. The waste from making paper.

• Speaker #1

  It was probably scaring the fish away.

• Speaker #0

  And maybe even killing them.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. It's a classic example of how good intentions can have unintended consequences.

• Speaker #0

  It's like that old saying, pave paradise and put up a parking lot.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And it's a debate that we're still having today.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Trying to balance economic growth with environmental protection.

• Speaker #1

  It's a tough one.

• Speaker #0

  It is. So what do you think are the big takeaways from all this?

• Speaker #1

  Well, for me, it makes me think about how we value and manage resources. Yeah. Do we learn from the past or do we keep making the same mistakes?

• Speaker #0

  Big questions.

• Speaker #1

  Big questions, but important ones. It really makes you think, doesn't it? How even something as simple as fishing can be so connected to these bigger issues.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. It's like those ripples you get when you throw a stone in a pond.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it starts small, but then it spreads out.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. And speaking of spreading out the book, the book mentions this crazy story about a monster fish.

• Speaker #1

  A monster fish.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Supposedly it was caught in, uh, malines. Glanders.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  And they described it as having the head of a woman and the rest fish. Whoa,

• Speaker #1

  that's wild.

• Speaker #0

  Right? Imagine the stories that must have inspired.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah. People love a good monster story.

• Speaker #0

  I guess some things never change.

• Speaker #1

  But it's interesting to think about how those stories might have influenced people.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Like, did they make people afraid of the water?

• Speaker #1

  Maybe, or maybe it made them more respectful of nature.

• Speaker #0

  Like a reminder that there are things out there that we don't understand.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And you know, it also shows how news and information traveled back then.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, even if it wasn't always accurate.

• Speaker #1

  It's like the 16th century version of fake news.

• Speaker #0

  So, we've talked a lot about the big picture stuff, but I'm curious about... The everyday lives of the fishermen. Yeah. Like what were their challenges? What tools did they use?

• Speaker #1

  Well, the book doesn't go into a ton of detail about that. Okay. But it does mention the different types of nets and traps. They had one specifically for certain fish. Interesting. And for different fishing conditions.

• Speaker #0

  So they had to be pretty adaptable.

• Speaker #1

  Oh yeah, for sure. They needed to know the waters and fish and how to use the right tools for the job.

• Speaker #0

  It makes you realize that fishing was more than just a hobby back then.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it was a way of life.

• Speaker #0

  They depended on it for their survival.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. They're real professionals.

• Speaker #0

  But it wasn't always easy, right?

• Speaker #1

  No way. They had to deal with storms and changing fish populations and competition from other fishermen.

• Speaker #0

  And then you had the paper mill causing problems.

• Speaker #1

  Oh yeah, don't forget the paper mill.

• Speaker #0

  So even back then, they were dealing with things like economic uncertainty and environmental challenges.

• Speaker #1

  Like those challenges are just part of the human experience.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, no matter what time period you're in.

• Speaker #1

  It's fascinating how connected we are to the past.

• Speaker #0

  It really is. And it makes you think about how our choices today will shape the future.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. It's all about finding that balance.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Between progress and sustainability.

• Speaker #1

  Between meeting our needs and protecting the planet.

• Speaker #0

  And between learning from the past and making new mistakes.

• Speaker #1

  Hopefully more learning than mistakes.

• Speaker #0

  Well, on that note, I think it's time to wrap up this deep dive.

• Speaker #1

  Already. Time flies when you're having fun.

• Speaker #0

  It really does. Thanks so much for joining us on this journey into the world of 16th century Geneva.

• Speaker #1

  It's been a pleasure.

• Speaker #0

  And to all our listeners out there, thanks for tuning in.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, thanks for listening.

• Speaker #0

  We hope you'll join us again for our next deep dive into the surprising and illuminating world of history.