- Speaker #0
Welcome back, everyone. We're diving into something a little different this time. Oh, yeah. 16th century Geneva, but not the Reformation, not clocks, but hunting. And the whole relationship between people and animals. Actually, we've got some excerpts from this book.
- Speaker #1
Okay.
- Speaker #0
Animo Sauvages by Christophe Chazelon. It came out pretty recently.
- Speaker #1
The primary source stuff. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And it's not what you think. I mean, it's these little glimpses of daily life, you know.
- Speaker #1
That's always the good stuff, isn't it? More interesting than the big treaties and all that.
- Speaker #0
Right. And even some humor in there, which is kind of wild. But the thing that really struck me was how regulated hunting was. I mean, the Geneva government.
- Speaker #1
The signory.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, the signory. They had a whole system.
- Speaker #1
They were really on top of it. And it wasn't just about keeping the good spots for the rich folks.
- Speaker #0
You think so?
- Speaker #1
It seems like they were genuinely concerned about managing the... game population, you know, making sure there was enough for everyone.
- Speaker #0
So what kind of, like, give me an example. What kind of rules did they have?
- Speaker #1
Well, in 1547, they put in this four-month hunting ban.
- Speaker #0
A four-month ban.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, just to protect the breeding birds.
- Speaker #0
That's intense.
- Speaker #1
And get this, it started right when the weather was getting nicer.
- Speaker #0
Like springtime, when everybody wants to be outside.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. Can you imagine that today? I mean, that's some serious environmental awareness.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I was going to say, is that conservationism? Or were they just being practical, you know, thinking about the future food supply?
- Speaker #1
Hard to say for sure. But, I mean, four months, that suggests they knew something about breeding cycles and, you know, how to keep things balanced.
- Speaker #0
It's pretty impressive. So, OK, they're regulating everything. But the records mention these grossest besties, like big beasts. Any idea what those were?
- Speaker #1
Well, probably the usual suspects, deer, boar, maybe elk. But the funny thing is, it's never specific. Mm hmm. So, you know, makes you wonder what else was out there. Like, yeah, were there bears around Geneva? Wolves? We don't know from these records.
- Speaker #0
So a little mystery. Yeah. But OK, so we've got this careful management, maybe even early conservation. But it wasn't all peaceful, was it? I mean, the records talk about some serious conflicts.
- Speaker #1
Oh, yeah. There were clashes with officials from Bern. For one, they thought they could just hunt wherever they wanted, even on Geneva's land.
- Speaker #0
Just waltzing in.
- Speaker #1
Pretty much created a lot of tension. naturally. And there's even this record of a guy, Claude Cochet.
- Speaker #0
What did he do?
- Speaker #1
Well, the Bernese officials jailed him just for hunting.
- Speaker #0
Seriously.
- Speaker #1
And Geneva's response, well, let's just say they were being very Ausha. Lots of political stuff going on, you know. Ah,
- Speaker #0
politics, always mucking things up. And wasn't there also tension closer to home, like between the nobles and everyone else? Oh,
- Speaker #1
absolutely. We see nobles pulling rank, even getting violent with peasants who, you know. dared to question them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's this one guy, Marin de Sacanex, who called himself the Grand Veneur, the great huntsman of gecks. He and his buddies caused quite a ruckus. Shows you social class played a big role in all this, especially when you're talking about something as valuable as hunting.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, makes sense. So it's not just the rules, but also the people, right? Like their lives, their conflicts.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. And sometimes those little stories are surprisingly relatable. Like there's this one about a guy who asks to hunt venison. For what? For his wedding feast and the signore. They say yes. Oh, nice. But get this. They say, OK, but no musicians.
- Speaker #0
No musicians at a wedding? What?
- Speaker #1
It's bizarre, right? Who knows what their logic was? Maybe they thought musicians would get too rowdy.
- Speaker #0
Anti-party Geneva.
- Speaker #1
Maybe. But it's just it's so human, you know, makes you think about how things have changed, what people valued back then.
- Speaker #0
Speaking of interesting figures, there's this guy in the records, Dennis Hughes. The Grand Bru.
- Speaker #1
Ah, yes. Appointed in 1549. Basically a forest warden. He enforced all those rules. But his pay, all from the fines he collected.
- Speaker #0
Wait, so he got paid from the fines?
- Speaker #1
Yep. Kind of a conflict of interest, maybe?
- Speaker #0
I was going to say, talk about an incentive to be strict.
- Speaker #1
Right. The records don't mention if anyone was watching him, so who knows? Makes you wonder if he was, you know, always by the book or if you look the other way sometimes.
- Speaker #0
That's a great point. It's amazing how these records... which seem so, you know, official and dry, can spark these really interesting conversations.
- Speaker #1
It really is. History's full of these little details that when you look closer, they tell you so much about the time and place.
- Speaker #0
It really makes you think, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, about those little details, those everyday things that we usually don't even think about.
- Speaker #1
Right. And how they can completely change our understanding of the past.
- Speaker #0
Okay. So we've been talking a lot about the regulations and the people, but what about the animals themselves? What do these records actually tell us about the wildlife in 16th century Geneva?
- Speaker #1
Well, we know they had the bigger animals like the deer and boar. Yeah. There's also mention of birds being hunted. Thrushes, quail, even pigeons.
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. The pigeons. I remember that part. They were really concerned about protecting pigeons in their nests. Why was that? Were pigeons like some kind of fancy food back then?
- Speaker #1
Probably more of a staple, really. Don't forget, this was long before factory farms and all that. So a dovecote, you know, a place to raise pigeons would have been pretty valuable, whether you lived in the city or out in the country.
- Speaker #0
Basically like a 16th century chicken coop.
- Speaker #1
Pretty much. But what's interesting is what's not mentioned. Like what? No bears. No wolves.
- Speaker #0
So does that mean they were already gone by the 16th century?
- Speaker #1
It's possible. Maybe habitat loss. Or too much hunting. Or maybe encounters were just so rare they didn't bother writing them down.
- Speaker #0
So another little mystery.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. And that just leads to more questions. Like the records mention hunting with these fillet and perches.
- Speaker #0
Fillets and perches.
- Speaker #1
It means they were using nets.
- Speaker #0
Nets. So like... trapping the birds.
- Speaker #1
Seems like it. But unfortunately, no details on exactly how they did it. So we get this little glimpse, but not the full picture.
- Speaker #0
Again, more mystery.
- Speaker #1
Always.
- Speaker #0
Okay. So putting it all together, what do you think this tells us about the relationship between people and animals back then? Seems kind of complicated.
- Speaker #1
That's a fair assessment. I mean, on one hand, you've got this effort to manage things, make sure there's enough for everyone, which I think shows some level of respect.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that's true. But then you also have the conflicts, the power struggles. And let's be real, they were exploiting these animals for food, for sport.
- Speaker #1
That's true. And it's important to remember, we're only seeing one side of the story here.
- Speaker #0
What do you mean?
- Speaker #1
Well, these are the human records, right? They reflect the priorities of the government, the people in charge. We don't know what the animals thought about all this.
- Speaker #0
That's such a good point. Like we can read about the rules and the arguments, but what was it like to be a deer? Or a thrush. Just trying to survive in that world.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. It makes you think about the bigger picture, you know, how humans were impacting the environment.
- Speaker #0
It's almost like, I don't know, it makes me wonder if things have really changed that much, you know, in all these centuries. I'm definitely feeling, I want to learn more, for sure.
- Speaker #1
Well, sadly, we can't get firsthand accounts from the animals themselves.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that's true.
- Speaker #1
But we could look at other things, maybe folklore. Stories that were passed down, those might offer a different perspective.
- Speaker #0
Ooh, like what kind of stories did people tell about the animals? That's interesting.
- Speaker #1
Right. Or even artwork, literature. How did they depict animals? What role did they play in, you know, the culture's imagination?
- Speaker #0
I can just picture it like some medieval tapestry with a hunting scene and all the little rabbits in the background looking worried.
- Speaker #1
I love it. But really, looking at those other sources, it could add so much more nuance to what we know.
- Speaker #0
It's like filling in more pieces of the puzzle, right?
- Speaker #1
Exactly.
- Speaker #0
Well, I'll tell you, after this deep dive, I'm never going to look at a pigeon the same way again.
- Speaker #1
That's the goal, to make you think differently.
- Speaker #0
You know what's funny? It's like, I always see pigeons. Right. But I never really see them. Not until we started talking about all this.
- Speaker #1
It's amazing what a little historical perspective can do.
- Speaker #0
Right. Okay, so before we get too sidetracked, no pun intended, with the whole rabbit thing earlier, I think it's time to... Try to sum up what we've learned for our listeners. What are some of the big takeaways here?
- Speaker #1
Well, I think the most important thing is just recognizing how complex the relationship between humans and wildlife has always been.
- Speaker #0
It's definitely not simple.
- Speaker #1
Not at all. I mean, even back in the 16th century, you see these glimmers of awareness about the environment, political tensions, even a sense of compassion. It's all mixed together.
- Speaker #0
You know, it's interesting you say that because it reminds me of that story about the wedding feast.
- Speaker #1
The one with the no musicians rule. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
It would have been so easy for the scenery to just say yes or no to the hunting request. But they added that extra layer, like trying to find a balance between celebrating and, I don't know, respecting the animals or something.
- Speaker #1
It's a great example of how these historical records, they're full of these little surprises, things that make the past feel more real. If we only focused on the big stuff, we'd miss all that, the human side of things.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's not just the what. but the how and the why,
- Speaker #1
right? Absolutely. And that's what makes history so fascinating.
- Speaker #0
Totally agree. So big takeaway, history is full of layers. Always more to uncover. Any other final thoughts before we wrap things up?
- Speaker #1
How about this? Next time you're out and about, take a moment to really look at the wildlife around you, even the pigeons. Ah,
- Speaker #0
okay, I will.
- Speaker #1
And remember, our relationship with the natural world, it has this incredibly long, complicated past, and it's up to us to decide what's... that relationship will look like in the future.
- Speaker #0
That's a great point. Well, thanks for joining me on this deep dive. Always a pleasure.
- Speaker #1
Thanks for having me.
- Speaker #0
And to all our listeners, until next time. Keep exploring.
