Description

Welcome to "Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast." Today, we're peering into the homes and families of 16th-century Geneva, uncovering a world both familiar and alien to our modern sensibilities. Between 1536 and 1564, Geneva's family structure was deeply patriarchal, with women generally occupying subordinate roles, though exceptions did exist. This wasn't just about social norms; it was a response to the harsh realities of the time.

High infant mortality rates and limited hygiene shaped family dynamics and property practices. At the heart of each household stood the patriarch, wielding significant power over family resources and decision-making. Yet, even as Calvin sought to reshape Geneva's morality, some aspects of daily life proved resistant to change. Public baths, for instance, remained sites of potential promiscuity despite Calvin's efforts to regulate them.

Join us as we explore how these family structures and hygiene practices offer a unique window into the complex interplay of tradition, reform, and daily life in Calvin's Geneva.

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This historical popularization podcast is developed as part of the interdisciplinary project entitled "A semantic and multilingual online edition of the Registers of the Council of Geneva / 1545-1550" (RCnum) and developed by the University of Geneva (UNIGE), as part of funding from the Swiss National Scientific Research Fund (SNSF). For more information: https://www.unige.ch/registresconseilge/en.

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Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

• Speaker #0

  All right, let's dive in. Today, we're getting kind of personal talking hygiene.

• Speaker #1

  Hygiene.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, but not just like any hygiene. We're going way back, back to 16th century Geneva.

• Speaker #1

  Ah, Reformation era, John Calvin and all that.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. We're going to see how they dealt with, well, keeping clean back then, or, you know, maybe not so clean.

• Speaker #1

  Fascinating, period. I bet their practices were quite different from ours today.

• Speaker #0

  You think? Our main source is a recent paper. It really digs deep into hygiene in Geneva between 1536 and 1564. I think we can handle the nitty gritty.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. I'm all in. Always interesting to see how these everyday things change over time and how they reflect broader social trends even.

• Speaker #0

  Totally. Plus, we'll be connecting this back to some observations from the philosopher Michel Serres. He wrote about life in France before the 1950s. See how things compare, right?

• Speaker #1

  Ah, Serres. Excellent choice. He had a knack for those everyday details. Should be a good contrast.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I'm curious to see those comparisons. And listeners, you might be surprised. How much has changed? Or maybe how much hasn't? Stick with us.

• Speaker #1

  One thing that jumps out from the paper is how social structures impacted hygiene. Back then, Geneva was very patriarchal. Head of the household, always a man, controlled all the assets.

• Speaker #0

  So like total male dominance, just guys running the show?

• Speaker #1

  Well, not just about that. It was a time with a very high death rate. Especially for kids. Imagine losing a child was sadly common. This system where one person controlled everything, it actually helped with inheritance. Made things simpler when, sadly, families were constantly dealing with loss.

• Speaker #0

  So it was practical too. Not just about men being in charge.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. But let's get to the heart of it. The hygiene. Daily baths. Not really a thing in 16th century Geneva.

• Speaker #0

  No kidding. So no quick dip in Lake Geneva every morning. Why not?

• Speaker #1

  Well, the church, for one, they weren't big fans of frequent bathing. And that view kind of stuck around even after the Reformation with Protestants like Calvin.

• Speaker #0

  Wait, the church discouraged bathing? That's wild.

• Speaker #1

  It's true. Back then, they thought water could mess with your humors, basically like your essential fluids. They thought it could make you sick.

• Speaker #0

  Wow. Talk about a different mindset. We're all about germs and daily showers now. But wait, even if they wanted to bathe daily, were there even enough places?

• Speaker #1

  Good point. Geneva only had... two or three public bath houses for like 7,000 people and they were called it too. Fancy, right? But not cheap to use. Heating all that water, you know.

• Speaker #0

  So not exactly convenient to pop in for a quick wash whenever you felt like it.

• Speaker #1

  Nope. Limited access definitely contributed to them not bathing so often.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so no daily baths. What about clothes? Did they at least change those regularly?

• Speaker #1

  Not really. Most folks had just one outfit for everyday stuff. Wore it till it was, well, basically falling apart. maybe one extra outfit for special occasions. But that was it. Laundry day wasn't really a thing then.

• Speaker #0

  Sounds kind of, well, smelly.

• Speaker #1

  Probably. But hey, that reminds me of something Michel Serre wrote about his childhood in France before the 1950s. Not much laundry there either, apparently.

• Speaker #0

  Really? So that less than fresh lifestyle, it spans centuries.

• Speaker #1

  It's fascinating, right? Not just a 16th century Geneva thing. Seems like it was pretty common in Europe for a long time.

• Speaker #0

  Makes you wonder, what finally changed things? When did bathing go from... dangerous to a daily ritual. And how does all this compare to our habits today? Stay tuned, folks. We'll get into that right after this.

• Speaker #1

  We will. That "Elle" magazine study asking if French women were clean. Pretty bold, huh?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Can you imagine a magazine doing that today? So what made it such a big deal?

• Speaker #1

  Well, for one, it got people talking about hygiene. Like, how often do you bathe, change your clothes? Suddenly, everyone was comparing themselves.

• Speaker #0

  Like it set a new standard. Yeah. Especially for women, it sounds like.

• Speaker #1

  You could say that. And this was right after World War II. Things were changing, new ideas, new technologies. Hygiene was part of that.

• Speaker #0

  So it wasn't just the study. It was like a whole shift in thinking.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. People were realizing, hey, maybe hygiene is actually important for health.

• Speaker #0

  And did the study, like, give advice, tell people how to be cleaner?

• Speaker #1

  It did. Daily baths, hair washing, deodorant, the whole nine yards. It was like a hygiene how-to guide disguised as a study.

• Speaker #0

  Wow. So it... Really did kickstart this whole hygiene revolution.

• Speaker #1

  It did. By the 1950s, things were changing. The study found that 52% of French women bathed daily in 51. Fast forward to a 2020 study, it's 81%. And for men, it jumped from practically no data to 71% bathing daily.

• Speaker #0

  Big change. But going back to Geneva for a sec. If they weren't bathing all the time, how did they deal with, well, body odor?

• Speaker #1

  Good question. We gotta remember, what's acceptable changes over time. What we think is stinky now, they might not have even noticed.

• Speaker #0

  I guess so. But it must have done something.

• Speaker #1

  Right. Oh yeah. Perfume was huge in 16th century Geneva. Herbs, flowers, spices, all mixed up to smell nice. And their clothes, remember, they didn't wash those often, so they'd absorb all those scents.

• Speaker #0

  They're like their own kind of deodorant.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Now, the source mentions Calvin. He tried to control those bathhouses, the "étuves".

• Speaker #0

  What was he trying to control?

• Speaker #1

  Well, as we said, they weren't just for getting clean. They were like social hangouts. People ate there, drank, even spent the night.

• Speaker #0

  So like a spa, a restaurant, and a hotel all rolled into one.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. But all that socializing, well, it led to some concerns. Let's just say. Not everyone was there for the hot water. Calvin especially worried about men and women mixing.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, trying to keep things morally upright.

• Speaker #1

  You could say that. He tried multiple times to separate men and women, but, well, it didn't really work.

• Speaker #0

  Sounds like good old human nature won out. Even Calvin's Geneva.

• Speaker #1

  It seems so. But this whole thing, the bathhouse, is being for both hygiene and socializing. It's interesting, right? Trying to keep things clean, but also people just want to have fun.

• Speaker #0

  They're like that everywhere, right? Parks, libraries, wherever people gather. Rules versus reality.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. So we've seen how those hygiene practices, or lack of them, lasted for ages. And then, boom, things change in the mid-20th century. What's it all mean? What are the big takeaways?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, good question. What have we learned from all this smelly history?

• Speaker #1

  Well, number one, our idea of hygiene, it's always changing. What's dirty to one generation is totally normal to another. It's all about context.

• Speaker #0

  And science plays a huge role, right? Like, discovering germs changed everything.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. Germs, antibiotics, hand washing. Imagine it wasn't until the mid-1800s the doctors figured out, hey, maybe we should wash our hands.

• Speaker #0

  Crazy, right?

• Speaker #1

  It is. Shows how far we've come. But you said earlier, some things we do today, future folks might find weird, right?

• Speaker #0

  Oh, definitely. All our antibacterial stuff, for one, future generations, they might wonder why we were so afraid of germs. Maybe they'll know way more about bacteria and how it's not always a bad thing.

• Speaker #1

  Like our grandkids might be like, what were they so scared of?

• Speaker #0

  Totally. And it's not just bacteria. They might look at all our disposable stuff, the wipes, the paper towels, all that plastic and think we were crazy wasteful.

• Speaker #1

  So even though we might think we're super clean now, there's always room for like hygiene 2.0.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. The history of hygiene. It's a good reminder. What's normal is always shifting. And who knows what the future holds?

• Speaker #1

  You know, it's weird to think about like washing your hands. It's so basic, but it has this whole crazy history behind it. Right. It really shows you hygiene. It's not just about being clean. It's tied to everything. Social stuff, what we know about science, even how we treat the environment.

• Speaker #0

  Before we totally move on, I got asked about something the source mentions. Even some pastors were hanging out at those bathhouses, the etudes. Isn't that a little, I don't know, hypocritical considering the church was against bathing?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Seems a bit off, doesn't it? But remember, those etudes, they were more than just baths. They were like the spot to be. People went there to chill, eat, drink, gossip.

• Speaker #0

  So it wasn't about getting clean for them. It was about the social scene.

• Speaker #1

  Probably. But it also shows you there's always this tension between what religion says you should do and what people actually do. The church might have said, bathing is bad, but hey, people still wanted to have fun. Even pastors, I guess.

• Speaker #0

  I guess some things never change.

• Speaker #1

  And that brings up something else. We've been saying in Geneva and France before the 50s, people didn't bathe as much. But does that mean they were actually dirtier?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, good point. It's easy to judge looking back. But is that fair?

• Speaker #1

  I don't think so. They just did things differently. It was normal for them.

• Speaker #0

  And they had their own ways of dealing with things, right? Like perfume, you said.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Maybe not squeaky clean by our standards, but not like living in filth either.

• Speaker #0

  Right. They figured out what worked for them. So as we wrap up our hygiene deep dive, what's the one thing you hope people remember?

• Speaker #1

  I think it's this. Our ideas about hygiene, they're always changing. What one generation thinks is clean, the next might think is totally gross. It's all relative, you know?

• Speaker #0

  And what we think is normal now, maybe our grandkids will think it's weird.

• Speaker #1

  Totally. Like all the antibacterial stuff. What if they figure out new stuff, discover new microbes, or realize being too clean is actually bad for you?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it makes you think, doesn't it? Today, we've gone from 16th century Geneva to modern showers to who knows what's next. It's been a trip, hasn't it?

• Speaker #1

  It has. It's amazing how much you can learn from something as simple as hygiene. It tells you about culture, science, how society changes.

• Speaker #0

  So as you're going about your day washing your hands, maybe think about all this. How we got to where we are and where we might be going next.

• Speaker #1

  Great point. Who knows what the future holds? Maybe sonic showers or nanobots that clean your pores. Sounds kind of fun, actually.

• Speaker #0

  That's a deep dive for another day. But for now, thanks for joining us on this journey through the history of hygiene. It's been fun and hopefully a little thought-provoking too.

• Speaker #1

  It has. Always fascinating to dig into these everyday things and see what we can learn.

• Speaker #0

  And who knows, maybe we'll be back to scrub up some more fascinating topics in the future. Until then, stay clean, stay curious, and keep exploring.