- Speaker #0
Business is broken down into two different steps. You have to have a great product. That's step one. You don't have a business without a great product. Step two is you have to have great marketing, where you've got to go get your product out there, which I think organic could become the biggest way that we get exposure.
- Speaker #1
Your watch,
- Speaker #2
Marketing Misfits, Norm Farrar and Kevin King. Norm Farrar, the Marketing Misfit from the North. How are you, man?
- Speaker #1
Good, my brother from another mother.
- Speaker #2
They always say gnomes live in the north. Is that true?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Here. I don't know if you can see it, but somebody sent me this. It's actually Norm the Gnome.
- Speaker #2
Norm the Gnome.
- Speaker #1
You can buy it on Amazon. Use my affiliate link.
- Speaker #2
That's awesome. So what's going on, man? It's getting warm up there in Canada, huh?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, well, it doesn't know what to do. It's hot. Cold one day, warm the next day. Yeah, it's crazy. It's just that time of year.
- Speaker #2
And down here in Texas, I just saw, I think tomorrow they said, we're supposed to hit a world all-time record of 113 degrees. And it's freaking, it's right now when we're recording this, it's May. So what the heck is 113 degrees in Austin? And that's supposed to be like September when we do a BDSS event. That's the weather.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Yep, you can keep that. I'll stick with my 60 degrees or whatever it is today.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, that's the weather that when you go outside to smoke a cigar, the cigar just lights itself.
- Speaker #1
Exactly, exactly. That's Texas weather. See, my glasses are steaming up, and it's not because of you, by the way. It's just because it's hot down here. I didn't care how the air conditioned me.
- Speaker #2
I hope it's not because of me. I know it's been a while, and you get excited when you see me, but I'm hoping that's not because of me.
- Speaker #1
It's the bloody shirt, Kev. It's the shirt.
- Speaker #2
It's the bloody shirt. It's just got you all in a kaleidoscope. Oh,
- Speaker #1
yeah, man. Hey, this is crazy, but we have a guest today. And I just saw a video, like a YouTube video, and I thought, oh, this is kind of cool because somebody that I know was on the video with our guest. And so I stopped and I watched it and thought, oh, this is really cool. and it has to do with sneakers where you know my background is in from the shoe industry so this is super cool it's about designing the future of sneakers through ai so i don't know if you uh you heard about this but our guest today is ben weiss and he's going to be on and his board of directors includes joe foster he's the founder of reebok uh shark tank's kevin harrington He's got a very successful podcast on his own called Legends and Leaders. And he's just had you name it, the person's been on it. Kevin O'Leary, Howie Mandel, all sorts of different people. But I don't know if we want to just get into it. You got something to say? Sure.
- Speaker #2
I'm looking forward to meeting you as well.
- Speaker #1
I know you always got something to say.
- Speaker #2
And you already had me at hello.
- Speaker #1
All right. So let's get into it. Let's bring on Ben.
- Speaker #0
Hey, sir.
- Speaker #2
What's up, Ben? How you doing, man? Good to meet you.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, good to meet you too. Great to be here, Kevin, Norm. Excited. You know,
- Speaker #1
this is crazy because we don't know each other. And we were just talking just before we got on the show today. This is how small of a world it is. I have a friend who knows one of your friends extremely well. He's always talking about him. And you were just hanging out with him last night, Colin Campbell. He went actually to Kevin's event in Iceland just a few weeks back. So this kind of all comes together. It's all full circle, which is just nuts.
- Speaker #0
100%. Yeah, it's funny how that works, you know, but I've had a good relationship with Colin for a while. He's a great guy. And he wrote this book, Start, Scale, Exit, Repeat, that my board member and partner, Joe Foster, the founder of Reboxin. So I've heard quite a lot about the book. We were just in Thailand recently. We saw one there. So it's really gotten out there. And yeah, Colin's been doing great. So we have that connection.
- Speaker #2
Don't tell Colin that you saw it in Thailand because that will go to his head. Don't tell him you saw it at the airport in Thailand or in a bookstore in Thailand. Or was it one of these when you checked into the hotel, they put one on every pillow? It's like a Bible. It's like a Bible. And instead of the Christian Bible or the Koran, you get one of those books. That would be pretty cool, Norm. Actually, we should do that. We should start a hotel. When we check in, you get a start, scale, repeat book.
- Speaker #1
We could do that, yeah. But don't tell Colin. Yeah, tell Colin because then he'll get me to write a press release for him.
- Speaker #2
He'll probably invest. He'll probably pay for the whole thing. So, Ben, for those that don't know you, what's your story? Who the heck are you? People listening to the marketing mistress is like, who's this Ben guy?
- Speaker #0
Sure. So I think I say that I'm somebody that tries to find ways to build stuff that's just different and exciting. And, you know, right now, everybody's talking about AI, Kevin. You know, there's so many conversations about AI. It's like, how can we use AI in software? How can we use AI here? And you just see tons of software focused innovations. You see the chat GPTs, Grok, Midjourney, image generation, text creation. You see all these software advancements. But what you really don't see much is physical hardware advancements. How do we see the physical world around us being changed by AI? You don't really see that much yet. So we did some digging, and I've been passionate about shoes just like Norm has been, and realized, like, wow, nobody has made a real shoe that you can get today that AI has designed. And this would be a big breakthrough if we could do that. We saw Nike teased a bunch of different concepts that they built, that they actually made physical concepts, but you couldn't really wear them. Reebok generated images of digital shoes. They weren't physical shoes. We're like, we could. probably do the whole thing. But the question was how. And we realized that we could do this with AI generation, image generation, having a model done that could generate patterns and textures around our shoes and a bunch of other steps. But then we needed a way to actually output this into a physical product that could capture what AI could build. And that's when we realized 3D printing was the best way. And we got in touch with a factory in Germany called Zellerfeld, which just happened to do Nike's first fully 3D printed shoe shortly after we started working with them. And we were able to get the input to be designed by AI and the output to actually capture that. And fortunately, I've got a great team. The founder of Reebok joined me who created Reebok with his brother. And it was pretty much nothing at that point. I took it to the best-selling shoe brand in the world. And there's no better advisor you can have than Joe Foster. And because of these kind of combinations here of this breakthrough product and the founder of Reebok backing us, it became a viral story. I was on Fox Business on Liz Klayman's show. Entrepreneur did a piece and really compounded from there to being featured on the front page of USA Today. a nice article in the money section that they did there. And we just got back from speaking in Thailand, opening up Money 2020 with 4,000 people go to that event to talk about this innovation of how AI is changing the world of footwear.
- Speaker #2
So how is this different than like, I remember 10 years ago, I could go into some of these higher end shoe stores and stand on like, it looked like a scale or some sort of little scanner thing that would scan my foot. And like, they would tell me, okay, this is the perfect because your arch is this and that. How is this different than... than that?
- Speaker #0
Sure. So, I mean, a lot of those types of systems have been more about like kind of fitting you to a product that's already existing. So they get your measurements, get your information, and they give you the recommended product to you, which is fine. And that's probably helpful in a lot of situations. But with our system, Kevin, you know, when somebody buys one of our shoes, every single one of them is one of one and truly is one of one because we scan your feet with your phone camera. So you don't even need to go into a place. You take a photo of each foot with next to an 8x11 piece of paper, which is a frame of reference. We use AI to then determine 12 different data points, including your arch height, length, width, instep, and more. And then we 3D print custom to each foot. We print those measurements out in each shoe. So it's really a different process. And people wind up finding out that their left foot's bigger than their right foot or their right foot's wider than their left foot. And now we actually print individually to each foot. So you may need to sometimes buy two different sizes or your one foot is wiggling around a little too much than the other when you buy a normal size. Now we can really customize and fit the right way. So I mean, these are, and it's not, it's not even that long. It's four to six weeks to get something done. So it's really been a breakthrough in that space. And we've got some great partners working with on that.
- Speaker #1
So what about if you need like an arch support or something like that? Will it pick that up as well?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So arch support is one of the things that we do. scan and get information around and then we print it to that. So it's not even just like we're getting length width and then printing a shoe out to there. There's a lot more that goes into it. And it's something that people have really enjoyed the experience. I've tried it many times. And when you get it really right, it feels just incredible. It feels like nothing else. It's like a glove-like experience. And it's a big deal. I mean, none of the stuff we're doing now with Norm is for athletics in any sense. It's all just lifestyle and comfort and appeal around there. But the recovery shoe market has become so huge. And there's a huge opportunity there to make something that, you know, enhances your ability to perform after or even just you can wear casually that fits you right. I mean, we're making slides. Slides are worn all the time. I mean, I guess that when the slide was designed, people thought, oh, you wear it like after work and just for a couple hours. I mean, now people are wearing slides inside the house, outside the house on errands. Some people are even trying to play basketball in them. You know, so we've designed something that is much thicker in its sole and has like almost a sneaker level bottom. It has this custom fit experience in a slide so we can have something really designed for what people want to do with slides.
- Speaker #1
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- Speaker #2
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- Speaker #2
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- Speaker #1
i i was just wondering if you have to do this individually and they're 3d printed How do you do this at scale?
- Speaker #0
It's a great question. So that's a good point. So the way we see this is we see this business coming in two phases, Norm. Phase one is that our goal is to become the content creator shoe brand, essentially. There are so many content creators that want to get their own shoes like athletes. There are so many brands that have never done their own shoes. And the question is, why haven't they been able to? It's because it's been too expensive to be able to do a new design. It's been too expensive with the molds. You have your minimum order quantities, and you have your timeline of 18 months generally. So we view this as a two-pronged phase. Let's go and partner with X brand, X content creator that wants to do their own shoe. Instead of now committing to this 18-month timeframe, to tens of thousands of dollars and not more in molds, to minimum order quantities, to lots of time in the design room, we can now automate our design. Majority, 70% is done by AI. We can now don't have to do any molds because it's all 3D printed. And then we can print on demand only when somebody orders, we make it for you. And we can launch a shoe in three months instead of 18 months. So the scale opportunity, we can only do thousands of pairs right now, is not necessarily fully there yet with this current 3D printing method. But the opportunity to test out the market and see how well something can do with this content creator, this brand, now is there, which hasn't been possible yet. And so what we want to do is now bet on people. We want to say, hey, we think you can do your own shoe. We think you as a brand can do your own shoe. Now we don't need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not a million dollars plus, and a year and a half of our time dedicated to that. We can find out within a couple of months with a much smaller budget. And if that does well.
- Speaker #2
we'll produce something for you traditionally and we'll bring it to help bring it to scale with this is a case study that's how we see it i think this is the future of e-commerce i think um i mean what you i think you're on the cutting edge there product market fit because i think that that with agents and and you know like you're talking about with ai is all you know people just do play with chat gp to do software basic stuff and analyze data sheets and stuff but i think the future is is doing products exactly like what you're doing where you actually can there's some trend something happens or someone wants to test something You can put something out, you know, have AI agents that say, oh, this is trending on Google Trends, or this is trending on TikTok. Immediately, whether it's shoes, or whether it's purses, or whether it's, you know, devices to charge your phone, whatever it may be, and do them 3D like this. Have AI design them, do the whole thing, and design it in such a way so that it could have been then easily taken to mass manufacturing down the road. It's not some complicated thing. It's only for like 3D. And do product market fit and be in market fit. be out in a week or in your case you know it says four to six weeks but um be out super super fast i think that's i think that's the future i think you may be on the is there anybody else doing this kind of thing or are you guys like kind of leading the pack when it comes to because i know people doing houses 3d printing and they're doing you know here in austin there's a big company that does all these houses 3d printed and there's some other stuff was there anybody else doing this type of stuff and a lot of times when people think of 3d printing they just think of prototyping yeah they think of like you know the plastics and the resin And it's not the actual color. It's not the actual texture. So how are you doing this with, I mean, because shoes are complicated. You got leathers and you got synthetics and you got, you know, the strings to tie and everything else. The whole thing can be done that way or are there limitations?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So the way that we print right now is it's all one piece. But the genius behind it is that certain areas are more flexible than others and has this triangular structure on the inside. that enables it to be more comfortable when you step down. So you can print it with a pretty normal TPU material that you're printing other stuff with, but it's printed differently in the internal makeup. So we partner with a factory called Zellerfeld in Germany. It's been helping us out. They handle that fulfillment for us. And we're able to print shoes fairly quickly over there. But your shoes are a very different category, like you mentioned, Kevin. It's an area that requires a lot more detail and attention. And you have got a lot more material overall that you're working with. So you've really got to go and nail it and do it correctly. But the opportunities for customization and design and virality are huge. So like if you have a big trend right now and it happens really fast, I mean, if you're a traditional shoemaker, you really can't do much when a trend like that comes around. But with AI design, 3D printing, you can. And we're even seeing the times now. It's about three months for us to make a new shoe. It may even be faster than that going forward with other types of methods around this. And so we're really excited about that. there are people that are creating shoes with 3D printing. There are people that are experimenting with AI, but nobody has put the two together and put out a product that you can buy as a consumer today besides us. And when we did do this, we were, I think, the most affordable fully 3D print shoe in the world, too. Adidas just came out with $140 version. We may have something out even fairly soon that even beats that by a large margin. But we were $150 at that point in time. And this category has been so inaccessible and nobody has realized you can fully get. entirely 3d printed shoes today um so we've also changed that narrative too and given people the ability to experience what this is like and it's just as good in many ways it's even better because you can get designs you can't make traditionally so we see this as being the future of a lot of different categories i mean why not prototype fast do
- Speaker #2
these look like rebox shoes or do these look like crocs and little kind of plasticky and kind of boxy uh or do you have a pic do you have one there?
- Speaker #0
Here. you can see what this is so that looks like okay that's a like a slip on that looks like something i buy off the shelf then it's strong and hard here huh and this is all one print it's done at one time it just it's internally structured very uniquely but you can see the level of detail these are a little dirty because i've been wearing them but you can see uh the detail here is really high you can't get this elsewhere it's inspired by a yacht so it's yacht curvature and then this yacht bridge and these patterns are generated by eye and they're spaceship-like patterns
- Speaker #2
um that we were inspired by sci-fi artwork you know it's funny you say this because i was last october i was at uh go high levels event go high level is a big marketing company that competes with funnels and does crm stuff and every speaker that was at this event had had custom shoes really so as a gift i wanted to talk to my producer i said i want to do this for my next event and he couldn't figure it out but they had i don't know if they were custom in your in your sense or but They had every one of them, like when they showed up as a gift, they gave to the speakers. They said, here you go. Here's a pair of shoes. And every one of them was slightly different. So they were a similar design. They're like a tennis shoe with a similar design. But the colors kind of matched whatever favorite color the speaker was or whatever. And they were all wearing them. You know, they changed. The women changed out their heels and put them on before they go on stage. And they had talk about it when they went up there. It was a really cool little. little thing that they did. I don't know if it was 3d printed or if it was just, uh, they just custom order one-offs from somebody that does this, but it was cool. And it had the logo on the side, you know, it was almost like instead of the Reebok logo, it would have a go high level GHL or something on the side of the shoe.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I don't know if it was 3d printed. It probably was traditionally done just because, yeah, just cause doing something like that, it would probably it costs a lot more being 3d printed. The one kind of. downside of 3D printing today is that it's like two or three times more than traditional production. Although it's far cheaper to go and develop, the actual per unit cost is two to three times more. So you have to price slightly higher or cut your margins, which is okay. I mean, that's why, like I mentioned before, we view it as like a testing phase, you know, but I think more and more brands need to push stuff out with this method. You can kind of test stuff in the footwear space now almost as quick as brands like Shein, you know, are doing in the fast fashion category. And those are the brands that are winning. And you can reduce a lot of waste. This industry has some waste issues. You can make stuff just to order and you can make stuff on demand. I mean, that's kind of the best ways to remove waste in this space. So I think there's a lot of potential. But brands need to adopt it more for sure.
- Speaker #1
And it fits snug to your foot. I mean, if I took a look at that shoe that you just had with the back. Yeah, there we go. That I can see now how you can not only use it for day to day, but
- Speaker #0
possibly even use it for a sport like basketball because your foot slips right in there is snug isn't it i mean we don't recommend norm that anybody uses it for uh for sports or anything but yeah i mean it's super snug and i would think that the that a lot of basketball shoes i mean what you could do in the space with 3d printing and basketball could be huge because the fit is such a big idea i mean first for sports in general fit is so important um so it's it's right now with this kind of lifestyle here just because it's easier um to do and and there's less testing but I think athletics is probably a huge market for 3D printing.
- Speaker #1
If you think about it, too, I used to play hockey. And it was so important that the uppers or the shape of the blades, the shape of the boot was so important, even skiing. I mean, this could go on and on and on. But one of the things I wanted to mention, back in the 90s, late 90s, there was a company in Florida, where you are. called Otabo. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but they were the ones that I think, Kevin, you're talking about. They put these scanners into different first-class lounges and you'd scan your foot and it would go back. And what it did was it created the foot for you, picked whatever leathers that you wanted. You picked whatever, anything that you wanted, it was customized. And then the last was created. So they carved out the last everybody had a separate last so when you've ordered your second pair of shoes you'd go to that last and put it on last what's a last oh a last is uh it's the piece that forms the actual shoe so when a shoemaker is making the shoe they'll take the last they'll stretch the leathers over top of it and that's where the shape all comes together so usually in a typical shoe, you'll have one style, one last for each size. But this one was per person, which was pretty cool. And what you're doing is you're cutting out the last. with the 3D printing. So everybody just gets their own file, I guess, instead of the last. Is that correct?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. The way that it's done is, I mean, we basically get your data and information in, and then we have a 3D file that's created already of our shoe. And then the 3D file is just their software that goes on behind the scenes that just morphs it, essentially, to be able to be printed to your specifications. It's more about taking the model and changing. the measurements based on the measurements that we get and just customizing it to that. So we don't have to make anything kind of different internally for that. It's, it's, it's really good software that's set up. And so it also just, what it does is it norm, it also makes the custom fit accessible, you know, to people. I mean, right now, if you want to get custom fitted shoes, you're paying a premium. Most people don't even know how to do that or where to go. You know, now you can get a custom fitted pair of shoes for 150 bucks. You know, that's a pretty big deal. And there's a lot of people that have. All different types of foot issues we've learned, you know, that have reached out to us needing custom fit from bunions to toes that are, you know, formed in different ways. I mean, just we get tons and tons of outbound of inbound, you know, outreach, essentially, you know, asking us all about this. And I think that there's a big opportunity to help a lot of these people with custom fit and with making it accessible. And the software is there now. It's not as much of a process. We don't have to make a new last, you know, per individual. It's much better.
- Speaker #2
What's up, everybody? Your good old buddies, Norm and Kevin here. And I've got an Amazon creative team that I want to introduce you to.
- Speaker #1
That's right, Kevin. It's called the House of AMZ, and it's the leading provider in combining marketing and branding with laser focus on Amazon.
- Speaker #2
Hey, Norm, they do a lot of really cool stuff if you haven't seen what they do, like full listing graphics, premium A-plus content, storefront design, branding, photography, renderings, packaging design. and a whole lot of other stuff that Amazon sellers need.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, and guess what? They have nine years active in this space. So you can skip the guesswork, trust the experts. There's no fees. There's no retainers. You pay per project.
- Speaker #2
So if you want to take your product to the next level, check out House of AMZ. That's houseofamz.com. House of AMZ. The women say the outfit starts with the shoes. A lot of the women that are into style, they say that you have to start with the shoes and you build up. So I can just see it now. There's going to be women with closets with 500 different pairs of shoes for one pair of shoes that's customized for each outfit. Are you doing women's shoes like heels and flats and pumps and stuff? Or is it just all just tennis shoes and slides right now?
- Speaker #0
Right now, it's all lifestyle shoes. um, that are just casual. So we're doing slides. We want to get into sneakers, but still non-athletic sneakers, more, uh, lifestyle sneakers. Um, we are exploring doing women's shoes. I mean, everything we do is unisex currently, Kevin. Um, so it's not like we have to kind of like, uh, you know, reinvent the wheel for each, uh, each gender. Um, but everything kind of looks is neutral color tones and, and you can just conform each shoe to each gender, uh, foot wise, just based on measurements. So it's not really a problem there. Um, But yeah, I mean, I think, I think, I mean, women spend twice as much on shoes as men. So, I mean, it's a clearly a segment we want to get into. I think the women's market when it comes to signature, signature shoes in general has been like super underperforming and really absent. I mean, the men's market is so driven by male role models in basketball because it is the sport that has a lot of influence that are non-spike shoes that you can wear casually. You know, whereas soccer slash football, European football, you can't do that. Although it's much more influence is much bigger. Same with American football. So that's why sports have been driving so much of this market. But women, I mean, there's so many amazing female role models that never get to put their essence into their own shoe and never get to have that opportunity to scale. And Nike and other brands have kind of been looking at female basketball role models, which there's nothing wrong with that. But the WNBA just isn't the same size as the NBA. So I think we see a big opportunity to partner with female lifestyle creators and influencers and artists and so on and so forth and give them the opportunity to express themselves in this area, you know, with amazing creativity. and make something. And I think that that female signature shoe markets is a huge opportunity to get into whether it's more heels or it's a lifestyle stuff, but it's massive.
- Speaker #1
Look what happened with Crocs. They were just an okay shoe company. I was with them at the Miami Boat Show. They didn't even sell out. This is their first year. Then they tied in with the women's volleyball and they blew up. I couldn't believe how fast and how big they got. But with everything that's going on right now, this is a complicated question, I think. But what's going to happen? Where do you see this going in the next five to 10 years? Are you able to answer that?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, no, I would think we have a pretty clear vision norm. And like you mentioned there with Crocs, it's about finding the right partners too. You know, so what we want to do now is we've kind of went through phase one where we've established like what the brand is and what we can do different. We've shown the world there's this new method to make shoes. It's not going to take 18 months and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's going to take three months and it's going to cost a lot less. And then we could scale traditionally and even bring something to retail potentially after for you. So now we have a new method that's brought into the scene that's fresh and exciting. Now it's about partnering with brands and creators to use this method. That's a big deal, and that's what we're focused on now. We have four partnerships we've signed. I think we're going to have five, six, and seven done fairly soon, three of which are with famous artists around the world and one with a brand. We have some other brands that we've already agreed to that we're working to finalize more. We've got a lot of interest in doing this now because we've proven this method because we've gotten so much amazing media attention, which we're fortunate to have. We were just on Forbes India yesterday. Yahoo Finance last week and some other places as well. And so that's one piece of this. The other piece also is how do we make AI design something that's accessible and affordable without 3D printing? And we think AI is going to really transform all of design. That's why our slogan for our brand is Design by Tomorrow, because we're embodying all of this into what we do. So we have a product that we're going to be releasing soon, which I think will make records in terms of how light it is. And it will be super accessible and I hope will be the first AI design shoe at retail. first AI design commercially available retail shoe, which will be a big deal because it takes this technology and actually makes it mass market accessible, which is where we have to go. And it's a good margin product that can be produced in great quantities and produced very quickly overall, you know, I mean, for traditional production. So, I mean, that's the way we have to go going forward. We're really excited to get there. I think there's a ton of opportunities in that path, but AI design is the future and it's going to produce stuff that looks super different than what's out there today. And the companies that are going to win are the ones that are going to put products out there for consumers and be standing out in design in ways that others just aren't. And so it's about moving fast and moving quickly.
- Speaker #2
If I was doing this, if I was a fashion influencer, like you said, I would model Shoe Dazzle, Kim Kardashian's Shoe Dazzle. You remember Shoe Dazzle where she had the subscription service? Yeah. Where they would curate, you know, five or six pairs of shoes. They had a back stock when you signed. It's almost like the old Columbia House Record Club or 13. 13 CDs for a penny or something, but you come in and you get a couple pairs of shoes right out of the gate for $59 a month, and you get to pick a pair every month, and it's automatically shipped to you. I could see an influencer doing something like this, not just creating a single brand, a single shoe, but actually having something that's every month for the time of the season that goes into their theme or whatever they're talking about or whatever the party stuff is or whatever it is. I could see that being huge.
- Speaker #0
uh, for, for some of these influencers.
- Speaker #1
I'm totally on the same page, Kevin, we're thinking of introducing a subscription model for this, this sock shoe concept. I was just talking about this AI design shoe at retail. Um, because I think that that's, it's a great way to go. And it's a way that we can provide a lot of new shoes all the time with lots of different, interesting collaborations that we can keep making happen. Um, and this, this product in particular that we're working on is, is going to be really designed to be very, um, Very much like a sock-like experience, almost like you're wearing your socks anywhere. So it's going to be something that people are going to want to have multiple of and use in a similar way to the sock to an extent. So it totally makes sense. I think the business model they had there was really interesting. They were a leader for a long time. And nobody's really copied that model since. And I have a good relationship with one of the founders of that company. He's went on to found LegalZoom and another company now in the trading card space. And it's a, it's a try and true model that he's a very, very good at. So I've tried to learn a couple of things from them for sure.
- Speaker #2
So this is a new product. You're building a better mousetrap, put it that way. How are you getting the word out there? How are you educating the market?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's a good question. So.
- Speaker #0
Press releases norm, press releases a press.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Go ahead. Sorry.
- Speaker #1
There's always, there's always a couple of ways to kind of get something new out there. You know, obviously the easiest way is you have a ton of money and then you just can pay for ads or pay for influencers. And that makes it fairly simple. I mean, but business is broken down into two different steps. You have to have a great product. That's step one. You don't have a business without a great product. Step two is you have to have great marketing. You've got to go get your product out there. So we've kind of been attacking this on every front possible. One is through media, press releases, I guess you could say, but just interviews and stuff like that, which we've been fortunate to get a lot of great ones. We were on Bloomberg's biggest show, The Close. We were on Liz Klayman's show on Fox Business. Yahoo Finance, Forbes in multiple countries. I mean, all different places. We just spoke at a fairly large conference. So that's one side of things. Another side of it is we've tested out ads and we've been experiencing over there as well. Another piece of it is just organic, which I think organic could become the biggest way that we get exposure. Creating content on social media, being able to have Joe do videos and talk about the shoes, having the founder Rebuck get behind in that sense and showcase his experience. I think that type of content super invaluable. gives people a great idea of what this is. But we're in a space, there's a big learning curve, I think. People need to understand what 3D print issues are. We're kind of putting AI in front of them. We're putting 3D print issues in front of them. We're putting scan to fit in front of them. There's a lot of different new things here. And so we really want to put a lot of content out there to communicate all this. And I think content is going to be the future of where we're at.
- Speaker #0
What's the moat around this? Is there any IP? I mean, do you have some sort of proprietary machine or you're doing all this press and getting all this stuff? Can other people go, that's a damn good idea. I'm just going to go do that myself. And they out-market you or out-spend you.
- Speaker #1
Well, I mean, anyone can kind of come up with their own idea for this space and attempt to build something. I mean, you can do that in pretty much any category. I think what makes us really unique is that we've done it. You know, that's one piece of this and nobody else has even since, and we've been around for some time. Another piece is, is our goal here. I mean, we have a completely different ethos in the footwear space and mission than these big brands, all these brands today, Nike, Reebok, Adidas, Puma. You know, are all born and bred in athletics, running most of them, switch to basketball some. Their focus is finding the next best athlete, bidding on the next top basketball player, backing them with a shoe, and then also getting success besides athletic sales from lifestyle sales of that athletic shoe. You know, we're in a different world. We're trying to just go lifestyle first, partner with people that aren't necessarily athletes. And they don't value these individuals the same. So there's a big opportunity there that it's just a whole different thinking. It's not like the brands will just shift over to you overnight. It's not just going to happen. They still haven't even fully embraced hip hop, although we saw the success of Yeezy before that imploded. You know, so there's a lot of opportunity here. It's just a different mindset that doesn't just shift when your whole company is built on that. I mean, we're building a brand. Our brand, Scintillate, is based off the idea that you can shine in any direction in life and sparkle and shine. I mean, the word Scintillate means that. So you can shine like anybody who's your favorite creator, walk in their shoes, feel like them. This essence of greatness. You can capture greatness in any category. And it's just a different mindset over there. but our brand is what's going to be our unique IP in general. We'll do design patents potentially on some of our shoes and stuff like that, that others won't be able to copy. And we already have our name trademarked and our slogan being trademarked and stuff like that. But our brand is what will be unique.
- Speaker #0
Do you have some background? Do you have some background in this space before doing this? Were you in the shoe industry before? Were you doing some other stuff?
- Speaker #1
I was doing some stuff in the shoe space. I was working to build a brand with a pretty prominent hip hop artist to kind of explore what you can do with NFTs and physical shoes and was putting those two together. It got some great traction. I got to speak in London about it at an event in New York with Kevin O'Leary that he was at and some other great places too. But eventually moved away from that as I think there's a bigger opportunity here to back all different types of content creators and not just make a brand more on the hip hop scene. I think that The content creator world is the biggest opportunity today in footwear. There are more content creators than there are top athletes in the world. And they have huge fan bases. And the way they gain their audience is through engagement every single day with their audience. It's not a byproduct of their performance somewhere else that they gain this following. So it's super direct. It's the connections there. And it's an area that nobody's really in. You don't really see any YouTubers getting their own shoe deals. You don't really see any TikTok stars getting their own shoe deals. Nobody that's really derived their own fame through Instagram getting their own shoe that they get to make. And it's a space that is the most relevant today. Everyone, if you ask the youth, half the youth today wants to be content creators. They want to be the influencer. But Nike, Reebok, Adidas, and Puma Remed, they all want to be the athlete. And so I think athletics is super important still, and it's a great focus, but it's shifted a lot today. And now it's the time for a brand to be ran by somebody younger and understands this space and get the backing of somebody who's a legend in this space to help out with it, like Joe.
- Speaker #0
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- Speaker #0
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- Speaker #2
I have a couple of questions. This is a serious question. Can I get a custom-made pair of shoes, my foot size, of course, with Kevin's face on it, and I could just step on his face every time I walk somewhere?
- Speaker #0
That would be pretty cool. That would make it squeak every time you step. Yeah. It can go, ouch.
- Speaker #2
squeak no no yeah let's choose you know you're walking across a wet shoes across the floor just squeak squeak squeak squeak actually i got even one better it says by bdss by bd you know something like that but okay so here's another serious question make
- Speaker #0
it happen all right good it's a i can do anything it's got to be a slip-on right now it's just got to be on right now no No heels for you.
- Speaker #2
All right. So let's talk about how does AI or 3D printing help reduce waste? Are you looking at that right now?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, one of the biggest ways that we reduce waste, besides like the aspect of we only make a shoe when somebody orders it and make it for them, which is a big deal. I mean, you've got all this waste from people making stuff that doesn't necessarily work or sell. And then they got to go do something with it, burn it, whatever it is. We're solving that on that front. We also, when somebody orders one of our shoes and then they're done with it. They can send it back to us and we can turn it into a new one. So the full thing, we can take the material and make it into a new shoe. So there's that life cycle there that is just prolonged now from a material standpoint that's not really possible in a lot of other areas. And that's a really interesting innovation that is different in this space as well. So I do think the print-on-demand feature is a huge thing when it comes to sustainability and waste reduction. I think that that's a big deal. and And we've seen already the waste reduction is massive, but the recyclability piece is also really important to us. And we're glad that we have both.
- Speaker #2
All right. And there is a lot of waste when you have a shoe production. So I don't know if you know, Kev, but just in general, there's just a lot of waste that what am I trying to say? Shoe production creates a lot of waste. How is that? And by doing it this way, we're doing our It's one step for the environment.
- Speaker #0
How is that? How do these shoes, I mean, the big mass market of shoes are people that really don't understand, are not really technologically advanced. I mean, your leading edge is the influencers and the people online, but. the third world countries and stuff where a lot of these athletic shoes like you're talking about the sports shoes and you know they follow jordan they'll go buy they'll go buy a pair of used jordans or something or off a goodwill or whatever but they they're not going to have the capability really or are they uh to actually buy this i mean the mass the masses i mean is this more of a niche thing for the west or is this something that you can see being global uh at some point
- Speaker #1
So it already even is global, Kevin. We've had sales in Norway and Thailand and all different countries around the world.
- Speaker #0
That's Western. That's still Western society. I mean, it's not the US, but it's modern society. I'm talking about where most of the people in this world are not in $150 pair of shoes and a lot of money.
- Speaker #1
Right. Well, that's why we're working on another product. They will be produced traditionally, but designed with AI that we can really scale. They will be much more affordable. than where we're at currently, that we can scale anywhere and we'll be within great price range for many of these other places that you're thinking of. So we realize that. I think it's important though to build stuff like what we've built currently because it's disruptive and interesting and it's important to build that for consumers now and not just tease it as a concept. Consumers are ready for this. There's a lot of people that will be early adopters in categories. We've seen that with the Apple Vision Pro. People are willing to spend money on it and test it out. It's important to put stuff out there like this. We've made it as accessible kind of as we can from a price point standpoint. from a price standpoint um but yeah i mean now we're we're trying to get to accessibility and affordability it's a huge piece of what we're doing here we've got to get there to to get build this thing into global brand and become uh the apple vision pro is a failure i mean yeah there's people that actually paid
- Speaker #0
the 3 500 bucks for that including me um but there's it's an overall failure uh and they actually are re it's you know hard to hear anything about anymore now Now they're going after the lower end market, the Ray-Ban. meta glasses market you know everybody's going after the 200 300 range instead of 3500 and that's what apple's working on so that's that's why i'm saying it's just the on the mass production or the mass audience size for this because i can see the value um and especially like in the medical field you know people that like you're saying that have a special special needs or the customization for influencer but just mass market and if they gotta wait four to six weeks if it you know a lot of people need shoes for an event or they need something now uh, uh, you think you're going to be able to get that down? Cause everything's done now in Germany, right? You said Germany is where everything is.
- Speaker #1
Q3 will be having production open up in the U S so that's going to also change the dynamic here.
- Speaker #0
That'll help. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. But I, I mean, I just think differently about like the vision pro. Like I, I understand maybe it's a failure from a financial standpoint, but I think it's a success in other standpoints, like in terms of the experience. The experience of what you had when you put that on was so high quality and so impressive.
- Speaker #0
Oh, no, it is. Yeah, it is.
- Speaker #1
Vision for what was possible. And sometimes you need to put products out there. It's like what Tesla did with the Roadster. You need to have this more premium product that you put out as version one to eventually get to version two, version three, and so on. It piques the public's interest. I'm not necessarily saying this is as expensive as we didn't make it like that type of price point. But I think it's important to kind of get stuff out there that pushes the boundaries of what's possible.
- Speaker #2
Could you see down the line? in the future where this could be licensed out to even a retail store where people could come in, sit down, check out whatever model that they want, have their foot scanned, and you create a 3D imprinted shoe in the back or in the warehouse, have it brought out, and they walk away with a brand new pair of 3D printed shoes.
- Speaker #0
Those optical glass places where they do it in the back.
- Speaker #2
That would be crazy.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, well, that is something we're talking about and we'd like to be able to get to. We do have our first in-person experience at retail opening up in a couple months. I can't talk too much about it yet, but it will involve like a really interesting experience around getting your measurements done and getting 3D printed shoes sent over to you. I think it's important people understand what this is like being in, you know, basically people need to understand what 3D printed shoes are like. I mean, it's been so complicated, this category. You need to feel them, you need to touch them, you need to see what they are. in person. So that's something that's super important to us and we're going to get into very soon. I wonder how scalable it is. I think that there is an opportunity to scale from there. It's going to be different in terms of cost to do than any other type of traditional product. But we want to see how it does. And we're excited to do something like that. But I think that there's a lot of other opportunities around giving people the ability to customize and make their own shoes as well, which are interesting to us using AI as a guiding tool. And we're exploring that too. The whole category is very exciting. Making it on demand there is something that could be possible. I think that's a couple of years off though, but at least being able to experience it in person, maybe do something interesting around scanning and then getting stuff sent over to you is a near term future opportunity.
- Speaker #0
How do you deal with like returns? I mean, because when I buy shoes, you know, Zappos had this problem, you know, Zappos came out with mail order is, you know, they always put a UPS return label in there because they know that 40% of them or whatever the number was is going to be returned. So when I go buy shoes, it's, it's partly the fit, which you're accomplished, you're solving a lot of that with the AI is conformed to the foot, but it's also how does it feel to me when I'm walking on? How's the cushioning? How's the everything? Does it? Is it something that I I could see myself wearing day in, day out. You put them on, you walk around a little store, in a circle around the couches. How are you doing that? Can people buy this and then get it and like, oh, it's not quite right. I need to make an adjustment or how does that process work?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's a great question, Kevin. So right now we don't offer returns because of this. We have to make it custom to fit you. What we do do is we make sure that it really fits you correctly. And if there's an issue, we take it back and then make a new one for you until we get it right. Um, so that's something that we're accommodating on. I mean, I don't think we can really offer returns because it's, it's so custom and we have to make it, um, to fit you and only make it when you do order. Um, but we, we make sure we get it right. And we've had some cases where we've had to go take it back and get it right for people. And then we do get it right. And they're very happy. And we work with them on that. Um, but like you mentioned about these, the fitting issue, you know, if you're able to scan someone's fee and then send them over a shoe custom made to them, you're likely going to have a lot less returns than that 40% number you were mentioning that could have been a Zappos number. Um, you know, if you 3d print custom to fit people and you have that, that scan to fit technology, I mean, that's one of the biggest reasons for the returns. It probably is the biggest fit issue. So if you solve that, you don't really have a big return problem. So we don't really see a big return or a big request for returns. It's, it's very rare that we even encounter something like that, um, because of this. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's something that isn't that big of a deal, but we, we have a system in place.
- Speaker #2
So this might be a little bit premature, but that's, what's the one. unconventional misfit marketing tactic that you've tried?
- Speaker #1
It's a good question. You know, I think that like we realized as we were building this out, like our story evolved. Like we thought our story was we created the world's first AI design commercially available slide shoe, you know, and the founder of Reeboks backing us. We thought that was an interesting story. As it progressed, it became interesting. to people that it was 89-year-old founder of Reebokbacks, 25-year-old entrepreneur. That became another story. And so I think then we kind of fed into that more and talked more about that and made that more of a conversation point in a lot of the things we did. So I think it's important to recognize how sometimes people will tell you what kind of is the best way to market what you're doing. You may think you know the best way, but then it can evolve over time. And so we've adapted. We've had to make those changes as we went. because we've seen the interest is really around that. And that's what people find absolutely fascinating. I mean, I think it's a very, you know, I think it's normal to get somebody on who's incredibly accomplished and, you know, want to have them advise you. And it's a great thing to do. But the age difference is something that people have been very fascinated by. And we've just adapted from there. So I think it's important to recognize when things are, when different signals are being given to you and then make changes fairly quickly.
- Speaker #0
How did you meet and connect with Joe?
- Speaker #1
I reached out to him online. You know, I just, uh, I reached out to him and Julie, his wife, and said, this is what I want to do in the footwear space. This is our plan. We spent a lot of time, I think, building up our supply chain. We want to get the same athlete-level supply chain these big brands have and give that to content creators. We have the number one factory in the world in Vietnam, and we've met with every major retailer. We've got designers behind some of the best sellers today. We wanted to have that done. Then I explained to him some of the other stuff and said, would you just take a call with me and talk to me about it? I really would love to have you on. I would appreciate the opportunity. He wrote a great book on his life called Shoemaker. that describes how he went from nothing, barely affording the machines to make the shoes and trying to figure out a strategy to get shoes into the running sector in the UK to becoming number one and the struggles of trying to get to number one of finding the right North American distribution partner and took them six different people to get to the right one. I think it was like six different tries and then eventually got to the right one. That's how it became so big. You know, and that level of persistence and just expertise is so rare. There's only a couple people in the world that have done what he's done. I want to get somebody on him. I want to get him on our team. took the meeting with me, him and his wife, and we had a great chat together. And then they mentioned they're going to be in Fort Lauderdale sometime after. So I got to get time in person. I jumped to that opportunity and they gave me some time in person, went really well and got a little more time and try to get some more time. And after that, I think they were convinced that there was a big opportunity here. I think they see that technology needs to be applied a lot more to the space. The content creators are the future. Jane Fonda was a big influence on Reebok, helped take Reebok to great heights. They were always innovative and outside the box. They embraced aerobics before really anybody else did. They did a women's only yoga shoe of soft leather that was affordable. So they were doing things like this. And Joe's all about white spacing. That's exactly what we're trying to do here today. So he resonated a lot with the mission. And it's been amazing having him on and his wife, Julia. I mean, I've learned so much from them both ever since.
- Speaker #0
Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of the Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?
- Speaker #2
Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.
- Speaker #2
I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. And we'll just, you can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits.
- Speaker #0
Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm.
- Speaker #2
Jane Fondo, that was a crazy story. I've read about that where they were just watching the show, right? And Jane Fondo was doing CrossFit. And she took on that shoe.
- Speaker #0
I don't think it was CrossFit. It was aerobics.
- Speaker #2
Aerobics, sorry. And she really skyrocketed the sales. I forgot what it was. What's that?
- Speaker #1
It was massive, the impact she had on the brand. I don't even know if they had anything. I don't know how much they even had to deal with it. It just kind of happened.
- Speaker #2
I think I heard that when she took it on, their sales went in one year, what the last 10 years combined were. Something like that. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
That's what's going to happen in AI, Norm.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
- Speaker #0
Beyond just shoes, on your grand vision, is this just going to become the AI Reebok company? Or is this going to go beyond shoes into other kinds of athletic wear and other kinds of fitness wear?
- Speaker #1
It's going to go beyond, Kevin. I mean, we see this grand vision here to become the Nike, Reebok, Adidas, Puma of content creators. I mean, these people have merch stores. They sell every item right now in their merch store except for shoes pretty much across the board. Some of these people have massive merch stores. I mean, Logan Paul at one point, I think, did $100 million in one year or something like that in merch. I'm sure Mr. Beast has massive numbers, but they never get to sell shoes because you don't want to make shoes like a typical merch item. You really need to make it done proper because the standard is so high today. And then also merch. I mean, you can elevate a lot of these people's personal brands and what they've created with higher quality apparel and stuff that the athletes get with a Nike Reebok Adidas or Puma. for these content creators and done in a really nice, you know, great way that can also scale retail. Many of them have massive merch stores that are doing millions and millions of dollars in sales, but have no retail distribution for anything like this. Today, 70% of shoes, it was the last number I saw from CNBC was like 70% of shoes are bought at retail, you know, and retail is still massively important for apparel, for footwear, for everything. So we see us as being this opportunity to elevate the quality for all these people, whether it's footwear, whether it's apparel, and also integration digitally. we think video games has a ton of potential it's the most engaged with category of anything done on the internet in the world i think there's like three billion gamers or something like that it's massive and there's a lot you can do with game integration so i think around these types of areas you can take nfts and put those into the game so they can wear their shoes in their game yeah i mean there aren't so many games that fully have nft like big games have the nft integration like that but even just creating digital in-game items i mean the amount of times people change their outfits on roblox are insane you know, and when you can do there with sales of the right products, I mean, people are spending hours and hours in these games, especially young people. And it's become the next Facebook, the next Instagram, that's where they all hang out when they're done with school, you know, and what they wear in those games matters just as much as in reality, you know, when they're hanging out with people almost, you know, so that's kind of where we would like to go as well.
- Speaker #2
All right, Ben, I think we're coming to the end of the podcast. So at the end of every podcast, we always ask our misfit, do they know a misfit?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I do know a couple of misfits. I have a friend that's building an interesting animation platform, Benny Plotkin, that would be good to have on. I've got the founder of the factory of Zellerfeld, our 3D printing shoe factory would be interesting, one Cornelius. And there's definitely others that I know that would be good to bring on. Yeah, there's tons of misfits. It's good to be around misfits, Norm.
- Speaker #2
All right, that's perfect. All right, Ben. Well, thanks a lot for coming on. Kevin, anything else to say to Ben? Yes.
- Speaker #0
So how do you actually, if someone wants to check out your shoes, where do they go? What's the website or where do they go to actually check that out?
- Speaker #1
Yes, they go to Sintalay.com. S-Y-N-E-I-L-A-Y.com.
- Speaker #2
And we'll make sure that that's in the show notes. All right, Ben. Well, thanks a lot for coming on the podcast today. We really appreciate it.
- Speaker #1
Thanks for having me. This is great.
- Speaker #0
Thanks, Ben.
- Speaker #2
There. See, I did my button.
- Speaker #0
You did it right.
- Speaker #2
I got mine. I forgot to press the record button. No, no. I did it. I got it.
- Speaker #0
I see it up there. But I think this is where everything's going. I think they're cutting edge. You know, they're doing it with shoes, which is a. A high statement where people really like to make a statement when it comes to what they wear and shoes are an easy one for a lot of people. But I think this is where it's going on a lot of products across and where marketing is going to be going is is being able to customize and make stuff specifically for people and then to do proof of concept and then go to mass production. And that's exactly what they're doing. I think it's going to be interesting to see how this how this plays out.
- Speaker #2
This is why I love entrepreneurs. because they can move on a dime, be that innovator. They don't have to wait 10 years to make a decision. And that's exactly what's happening here. So it's so cool. Can't wait to see where this goes.
- Speaker #0
I just want to know, like, I don't want to be there when you're doing your shoes and you're taking pictures of your feet because I don't want to see your feet.
- Speaker #2
Well, actually,
- Speaker #0
imagine the guys that, I hope it's just an AI agent that's seeing all these pictures because you get some nasty, gangy feet with yellow crap on the nails. and I'll come in and make these shoes. I can just see some like, I don't want to be that guy. You know, that's a.
- Speaker #2
I thought it was because of the tattoo I had of you on the bottom of my foot. But yeah, it's okay.
- Speaker #0
I don't know.
- Speaker #2
All right. How do people get a hold of us?
- Speaker #0
They get a hold of us at marketingmisfits.co, right?
- Speaker #2
Got it. You got it. I hit the button and you got the CEO.
- Speaker #0
Or you follow us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
- Speaker #2
check out check out our youtube channel and uh we got something we got two youtube channels right yep we got our long form youtube channel which you'll be able to get the edited version of this podcast and we've got our clips uh youtube channel which we take out the nuggets and we put them over there so these are all three minutes and under so check it out it is live now and uh it's looking good.
- Speaker #0
I saw it. I saw it. I checked it out the other day. I was like, hmm. I don't remember saying this, but... No,
- Speaker #2
you didn't. AI, we... Yeah,
- Speaker #0
that was AI.
- Speaker #2
Agen, and boom, we got it.
- Speaker #0
It can make me look smarter. I need all the help I can get.
- Speaker #2
All right, everybody. We will see you next Tuesday.
- Speaker #0
See you next Tuesday. Take care.
