- Speaker #0
The Toxic Avenger story, it's a classic hero story. The experience of making these wild and crazy films, you know, on a shoestring budget. And I had to learn, you know, a lot of good lessons that I've been able to carry forward, you know, throughout my career in many different industries, you know, not just the film industry. You're watching
- Speaker #1
Marketing Misfits with Norm Farrar and Kevin King.
- Speaker #2
Mr. King, how are you, sir?
- Speaker #1
I'm good. You know, I've got a question for you, Norm. I know you watch a lot of TLC and some of the shows on there. Have you ever seen those shows where there's like a woman in a house and she's got like 16 cats and there's these stacks of like newspapers and books and trinkets and stuff? And there's like a little path that they can walk through, that she can walk through.
- Speaker #2
Where are you going with this?
- Speaker #1
I can't get rid of anything. Have you ever seen that show?
- Speaker #2
Hoarders.
- Speaker #1
That reminds me, when I came to visit you, your house is not that way. Your house is very tidy because your wife keeps it perfectly clean. You pulled up something on the screen and showed me on this big screen, and you're like, this list of like 30,000 domains or something like that that you have. I was like, what did I say? It's like, Norm, you're the domain hoarder. You have more domains.
- Speaker #0
Oops.
- Speaker #2
Hold on. Stop. Stop the thought. I got to register. Domainhoarder.com.
- Speaker #1
No, .club.
- Speaker #2
.club. .club.
- Speaker #1
But no, I mean, you were going through this list. This is an amazing list. I mean, of all these, like, some really good names. And you're like telling me, yeah, some of these, you know, they're worthless or whatever. But I spend tens of thousands of dollars per year on the renewal fees. And some of these, this little bucket over here. If I wanted to sell these right now, it's a quarter of a million dollars or I don't know, some crazy number like that. So it's not only that you give them for maybe opportunities that you might have, but you also it's kind of like your way of investing and doesn't clutter up the house because it's all sitting there digitally in the computer.
- Speaker #2
That's my newspapers. That's my newspapers.
- Speaker #1
I think sometimes you just sit around and like you're driving down the road going to get a sandwich and you're like, oh. what about the domain blah blah blah and you pull over and punch it up on your phone and like oh it's available click i got it i don't like that kev so he's you you have so many domains and you know some of the biggest domain colin campbell good buddy of yours our guest today you know in the domain business domains i mean i remember when domains first came out like we're old guys so we go back to like the 90s when they were free when they were when they were free yeah uh And people were like, yeah, you can get this and you could get almost anything. And some of the people that got on the ball and got like, you know, cafe.com or, you know, the biggest one that's probably the biggest story was at sex.com back in the day. And the big lawsuit came out of that. That thing ended up being worth a lot of money or they got something that people want. You know, whoever originally had Amazon.com. I don't know if it was Amazon, maybe somebody else, but they bought it off of them or broadcast.com. You know,
- Speaker #2
beer, beer.com. I remember way back in the day sold for 7 million bucks.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, exactly. Or somebody that nowadays you see a brand new company sometimes pop up and they're just coming out of stealth mode and they got some really cool, clean domain. And it's like, you know, like, I don't know, beer, like beer.com or, uh, and I, man, I wonder what they had to pay to actually get that from whoever originally owned it. Must've been a fortune to get that. And I remember, uh, I think it's Russell Brunson tells a story of he, Russell Brunson runs ClickFunnels, you know, does the big events and does all these online webinars, was really smart guy, really good marketer. But he wanted to get hooked up with, with Tony Robbins. And, and what's his name? The other film, John Blake, right now his name. And they were doing this webinar and for a new thing called mastermind.com. And he tells a story that I went to Tony and say, you guys need to get the mat. the domain mastermind.com uh and they're like nah it costs too much money we're just going to go with i don't know mastermind.net or whatever it was like no the dot com is what you want uh that's has the most value yeah you can get the dot whatever blah blah blah there's tons of different domains now and so beyond.com like now we're not going to do it he's like well i would love to work with you guys like well we i think we kind of got this so russell goes out contacts whoever had mastermind.com and bought it for like half a million bucks from whoever had that domain. I was just kind of sitting on it and gifted it to Tony Robbins. Just turn around and said, Tony, and here you go. This is for you. And they're like, what? Yeah, I just got this because I think you really need this .com domain. Gave it to him. And then I like. That's like semen of their deal. And they're like, all right, you can come on and work with us on this thing. And it's the power of domains and having the right domain and the right extension. And now with all these extensions like .art and .store and .ai, I saw something. What's the country? Vanguila, I think, owns .ai, one of these old Caribbean islands. And they're making more money off of licensing fees or the fees for .ai than they are off of their own economy. It's crazy. what you can do with domains.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, I've seen that with just locally .to, you know, for Toronto. But where was I going to go with this? Today, we're going to be talking about domains, but we're also going to be talking about some marketing tips that were brought out by our guest working in the B-movie industry and talking about the marketing.
- Speaker #1
uh lessons he learned from the toxic avenger which i think is going to be a great topic i don't know this this is going to be cool it's going to be a little bit different but cool marketing taking marketing from the b movies and how can you apply lessons learned there into other industries and there's so much you can you can apply uh
- Speaker #2
it's going to be really cool all right so let's get into it today this is a a friend of mine we've been friends for forever seems. And this guy knows his stuff. I'm talking about Jeff Sass. He's been on my podcast, my older podcast. I know this guy, Lunch With Norm. He's marketing extraordinaire. So we'll get into his background, but you're going to love it. So let's bring in Mr. Sass.
- Speaker #0
There he is. Hey, Norm. Hey, Kevin. Good to see you.
- Speaker #1
Good to see you, Jeff.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I was listening to you talking about domains. So Norm, you're the domain hoarder. But you have a relatively small portfolio. There are people I know who have 10,000, even 100,000 domains in their portfolios. And when you think about the renewal fees each year, just for that, you need to be generating a million dollar plus in revenue to just cover your costs to maintain some of these portfolios.
- Speaker #1
So it's- I don't know why you asked me for a loan the other day, Norm.
- Speaker #2
That's right. That's right. So the other thing about domains, I think, I don't know if it was you or Colin Campbell that told me this, but Gary Vanderchuk is big into domains. Isn't that correct?
- Speaker #0
I don't know about that because I've seen Gary speak against domains at a conference once. We were on stage at the same conference and he was kind of negative, but that was a number of years ago. Things go back and forth. I think at the end of the day, anyone who's building an online presence as a brand personally or for a business. really needs to think about getting the best domain for that business because it really becomes an invaluable part of your brand. And I think it's more true today than it ever was. Even with the advancements in AI and social media and all the different ways you could present yourself online, it's still critically important to have a domain name that you own and control so you can't get deplatformed. You can control how your fans and customers and audience finds you.
- Speaker #2
You know, when I don't know if this is the first company I met you at, but you were working with a company that did exactly that, Treat-A-Dog. And so Treat-A-Dog changed its domain, paid a ton of money for this, but paw.com. And the reason one of the reasons why they did it was because Treat-A-Dog was strictly for dogs. When you say PAW, that could be any animal. It was easy to remember. I don't know. Can you get a little bit into that?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So it's a couple of things you touched on there, and it applies to .art, where I currently am as well. So when you have a great domain name that's kind of a category killer like that and defines your business, there's some hacks from a marketing perspective when you use the domain name as your brand. So in the example you gave, Norm, PAW was never PAW. It was always PAW.com. So that was the name of the brand. And some of the hacks about that is every time your company is mentioned, you're telling people how to find you. And we saw every time there was an article written about companies in the pet products industry, which is where we were, and our company was mentioned in an article, we were the only one that actually had a link to our website in the article. Because when they wrote our brand name, paw.com, it was a big hit. immediately became a hyperlink to our website. And we see that now, even with .art, you know, we have a number of art related businesses that use .art as their brand. There's a company called scan.art. And they also rebranded to that killer name because that's what they do. Their business is about scanning art so that you can see information about it just by scanning the artwork at an art fair. And their brand is scan.art. They don't call themselves scan. They don't call themselves. Scan art they call themselves scan dot art and I think when brands do that There's a lot of kind of hidden marketing benefits to it
- Speaker #1
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That's 8fig.co, 8fig.co. See you on the other side. There's some brands that do that, like what you just said in those examples, like paw.com and the .art. But others will use the last two or three characters of the extension. As part of the name, like in our space, in the Amazon space that Norm and I are in, there's a company called Thrasio. And it's T-H-R-A-S dot dot I-O. So they're using the dot I-O extension as part of the brand name. But when you say Thrasio or when they put it, it's Thras.io. And that's another way to actually creatively use that as well.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. We refer to that as a domain hack. And of course, with dot art, since it's A-R-T, there's quite a lot of words that end in A-R-T. We see a lot of that. In fact, just earlier this week, the pet store, coincidentally, nothing to do with our earlier discussion about pets, but literally this week, PetSmart registered the domain PetSM.ART. PetSmart, right? And I'm curious to see what they do with it, but that was a clever use of their brand and a .art name to create a domain hack.
- Speaker #2
We tried to do it with our company. So Kevin and I have a company called Dragonfish.
- Speaker #1
dragonfish communications inc we tried to get dragon.fish but uh unfortunately it was taken all the domain extensions are they just three two or three characters or there's some four characters no actually there's some quite long ones there's a doctor yes what am i thinking the store photography photography
- Speaker #0
not photography is one of the longest ones and that was interesting when they launched dot photography everyone thought oh you know this is too long to be successful and actually professional photographers liked it because it actually shortened their domain because if they were so-and-so photography.com, they could now just be so-and-so.photography, which was actually shorter than their previous name. And it also added that professional hook. That's the interesting thing about these new extensions. And you mentioned, Kevin, like .io, those two letter extensions are actually country codes. So .io is Indian Ocean and .co is Columbia. Dot E is, dot M E is Montenegro, etc. So those are all country codes that are actually ultimately controlled by those countries, which sometimes can be a risk. You've probably heard of dot L Y and, you know, Bitly, of course, the shortener. A few years back in Libya, dot L Y is Libya, and they actually had some unrest there and they shut down their internet. And so for a period of time, all the dot L Y domains didn't function. because of the country. So there are some inherent potential risks with country codes.
- Speaker #2
I'm curious, Jeff, just because I know this has got to be country code. What's .TO?
- Speaker #0
TO, it's one of those, one of the islands. It's one of- Tobago or- Yeah, it's one of those places. It might be Tobago. I can't keep track. And even .TV, which has become very popular and is relevant, is Tavulo. That's also an island. So All of the two-letter domain extensions are country codes.
- Speaker #1
So what's Columbia, Norm? market no yeah okay okay just for kevin how coincidental is that i used to be harry is there an xco dot xco dot xco there we go how does that work i know what's it i can how does the domain thing work so you know like colin has dot club you have the dot art how does that Do you just go and say, I'm going to set up some servers and I'm going to do this? No. Go through ICANN and there's like one master thing and they decide, okay, we're going to add the .photography and .whatever. How does that process work when you want to like create your own domain? If I wanted .king, how would I go about getting .king?
- Speaker #0
No problem, Kevin. I'll tell you exactly how it worked and how it's going to work because actually there's going to be an opportunity next year where you could actually apply for .king if you wanted to. Oh, really? So back. Back in 2011, ICANN opened up the opportunity for anyone to apply for anything as a top-level domain. So you could have applied for .king back then, .kevin. Colin and I, we applied for .club. I was one of the co-founders of .club with Colin. Ovi Kasimov, who's the founder of .art, he applied for .art. All of this took place back at that time, and the deadline for applications was January of 2012. So in January of 2012, the window closed.
- Speaker #1
Was the application process expensive?
- Speaker #0
It was $185,000 for an application.
- Speaker #1
Okay.
- Speaker #0
Plus, there's some legal fees, some accounting fees. Realistically, you were probably looking at an investment of around a quarter of a million dollars, $200,000 to $250,000 to really properly file your application at that time. Then the window cut off, applications were closed. And then in June of 2012, they had reveal day where they basically revealed who had applied for what. And it turned out there were about 1,900 applicants for about 1,000 new domain extensions. So a lot of new extensions. And basically, if you were the only one who had applied for a word, so if you were the only one who applied for .kevin or .king, then you could become the registry operator for that extension. But realistically, as you saw, there were more applicants than there were domains applied for. there were many domains that had multiple applicants. When we applied for .club, we had two other applicants. So there were three of us competing for .club. When Ovi applied for .art, there were nine other applicants. .art was extremely popular. So there were 10 companies and individuals competing for .art. And basically, ICANN rules let you try to negotiate something amongst the applicant parties. And then if you couldn't come to some sort of an agreement, you could go to an Ausha. And there were two types of auctions. There's a private Ausha where everyone agreed to go to Ausha. And then the private Ausha, it was very interesting because everyone bid. The winning bidder won the name and then the losers split the proceeds. So it was a very interesting proposition. So there were a lot of people from the first round who, even though they didn't end up. becoming the registry operator of names they applied for, they ended up making a lot of money, millions, and in some cases, tens of millions of dollars by losing all of their auctions, which was very interesting. But that had to be agreed to by all the related parties. If not everyone could agree, then you went to an Ausha of last resort, which was an ICANN Ausha, same Ausha process, but in this case, all the money went to ICANN. So if you lost that Ausha, you were out your application fee and that's it you were finished right so that all took place in 2012 the first round of those names came to the market in 2014. um dot club is in that first round of releases in 2014.art because there were so many people contending for it it took a few years later so ovi did not win the Ausha for dot art until 2016 and then dot art became publicly available in 2017. And we have about almost 300,000 registrations today at .art.
- Speaker #1
So you make the money by owning the registrar. So when they pay their $599 or $999 or $1299, that money is going to you and a small licensing fee goes to ICANN out of that?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So ICANN gets a small fee on every domain that's registered. The domain name industry, believe it or not, is very much like a traditional wholesale retail business. As the . registry operator of a domain extension, we're like the manufacturer or the wholesaler. So we distribute our domains through a channel of registrars, GoDaddy, Namecheap, Alibaba, hundreds of registrars around the world. So the registrars pay us a wholesale price, which they then mark up and charge you as the registrant. So when you go and register a domain or a .art domain at GoDaddy, GoDaddy's paying us. The wholesale price for that domain, they're marketing it up and you're paying the retail price. Not unlike buying a product off the shelf of a store.
- Speaker #1
So why wouldn't brands, like back in 2011, or you said something that's about to happen again, why wouldn't there be a .Nike and .Adidas and a .Coke and a .whatever?
- Speaker #0
And there is, and they're just not being widely used. So in that first round, there were about, if I remember correctly, around 63 major brands that registered their brand name as an extension. Not a lot of them ended up doing much with it. .Fox, the movie studio, has done some interesting things. . periods of time that Sony did some interesting things, but it didn't take off, quite frankly, as widely as people expected they would. But we'll see what happens in round two. So as I mentioned, something else is coming up, a new opportunity. So next year, probably in the spring of 2026, ICANN will open up the next round where once again, you'll be able to apply for a top level domain. This is your chance, Kevin, to go for it.
- Speaker #1
Go for it, Kev. I'd say $185,000.
- Speaker #0
Well, there's a little bit of a rub. There's a little bit of rub to that story. The price has gone up. Yeah, it's going to be, I think, if I remember correctly, it's going to be about $227,000 or $224,000, something like that as the application fee. And the other consideration for this round is I don't think they're going to allow those private auctions. So I don't think you'll be able to. earn money by losing auctions this time around.
- Speaker #2
So if I went against Kevin, just to spite him, I can make a lot of, I can't make a lot of money this time.
- Speaker #0
That's correct. That's my understanding because, you know, the first time around, I think nobody really understood that that's how it was going to work. So everyone who applied was legitimately interested in becoming the registry operator. I think now that people know that, oh, some people made tens of millions of dollars by losing. We want to discourage people from applying just to lose. That's not the business model. I think ICANN wants to be sure that the people applying for a top-level domain are very interested in operating that top-level domain.
- Speaker #1
Do you know what most of the domain has ever gone for, sold for? In your knowledge, what's the highest amount someone's ever paid?
- Speaker #0
Interesting. One of the popular words, so voice.com sold for, I believe, $30 million, which was pretty high. There are domain names that are not publicly known that have sold supposedly for more. And in some cases, it came along with a business. But voice was interesting because that's also one that .art was very successful with. Voice.art sold last year for $40,000. Now, we didn't sell it for $40,000. The person who registered it initially sold it in the aftermarket. So someone registered voice.art from us. probably paid about $500 and then resold it in the aftermarket for $40,000. So that was quite a good return on an investment. I think that's like 18 times or eight. Yes. It's a pretty big, pretty big return on investment.
- Speaker #1
There's a whole industry of that, right? I mean, people don't realize there's like domain conventions or people, people that buy and flip these things go and meet.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. There's a names con, which is a big one. Um, There's industry events like there's an ICANN meeting in Seattle actually next week I'll be attending. ICANN has three big meetings a year all over the world. When you think about it, a domain name is very interesting because on the one hand, it is a digital asset. It has value. Value can increase over time depending on market conditions and different words become popular. People may have, you know, the word chat. wasn't that exciting a few years ago. Now, chat.com sells for $10, $15 million because of what's happening in AI. So it's an asset that can increase in value. But at the same time, it's a piece of realty. It's real estate on the internet where you house your brand and house your online presence. So it's functional as well as being a digital asset. And it's also a marketing tool. It's a very powerful marketing tool. Many of these new extensions like .art that have meaning, you know, it's a word that has meaning, that adds a great deal of context to your name, which gives you many SEO benefits and just recognition and remembering benefits with your audience. You know, kevinking.com could be anything, Kevin. We don't know what you do. If you were kevinking.art, we'd have a pretty good idea that you were an artist or Kevin King who's involved in the arts. So these. domain extensions that have meaning can add context to what's to the left of the dot, right?
- Speaker #1
Dot com,
- Speaker #0
this point is very generic.
- Speaker #1
That's changed, though, because I remember 10, 15 years ago, the general consensus was if you don't have .com, you don't exist. You don't want to be .net. You don't want to be .co or .org or .edu. You want .com. But I think that's evolved in the last decade or so. Or to your point, now you want to actually be .art or .club or .whatever if that's what you do.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. It's changed quite a bit. Number one, you know. There's a shortage of .com names, potentially, if you're looking for your name or something specific, it may be taken already because there's so many that have been registered over the years. With the newer extensions, there's more inventory available of specific names. But number two, especially younger generations, they don't really care. They didn't grow up on .com, so they don't really care as much as maybe us old guys. We've got three old guys here in the studio. You know, maybe we're more ingrained. It's more ingrained in our heads to use .com. You know, people who've grown up with social media, some of them don't even want to have a website. They exist online, you know, in their Instagram account or their Facebook account. But even then, there are benefits to using a domain name and have it point to your social media account. And we could talk about that a little bit later. But I think, yeah, I think adding that context is really interesting. What we've found with .art, you know, I mentioned we have almost 300,000 registrations. The majority of them are first name, last name, .art. And part of the reason for that is in the art world, there's no centralized body that certifies you. If you're an engineer, you can have a certification. If you're a realtor, you get certified. If you're an artist, it's self-declared. You're an artist because you say you're an artist. And so having that .art domain, having that be part of your personal brand really helps you say to the world, hey, I'm an artist. taking this seriously. I'm declaring myself as an artist. So those meaningful extensions can be very useful.
- Speaker #2
I can see that self-declaration. I can see kevinking.prick.
- Speaker #1
That would actually, that would be a good one. I think that would stand out. I get some attention.
- Speaker #0
You think so? I think it's available, you know, just a couple hundred grand. It could be yours. Could be yours.
- Speaker #2
Now for the domain business, other than going to and GoDaddy or Namecheap. How do you market yourself as .art or .club? Is it just through those like NamesCon or different trade shows?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So it's a combination. So when you have a domain that has meaning like .art does, so we have an industry that we can go after. So we really need to build our brand and grow our awareness in the art world. And that includes... art fairs, museums, galleries, artists, art schools. So we play a very active role in those areas. We also have built many tools to serve artists as a way to build our brand in that community. So we have a platform we created called ID.art, the letters ID.art, which makes it very easy for you to upload your artwork, create certificates of authenticity. You can validate your ownership on the block. You can mint NFTs. You can do a manager collection and share artwork with others and try to monetize your artwork. So it's a very powerful, easy to use platform to serve artists and their needs. Last year in December, we acquired a company called Hug, which was co-founded by Randy Zuckerberg and Debbie Soon. Hug was a community of about 35,000 artists, collectors, enthusiasts. So we acquired that community. um and are working with them on open calls and we have the opportunity to present open calls from galleries and others to those artists in that community so we're creating a whole ecosystem around dot art so it's more than just the
- Speaker #1
domain name so you're you're owning a domain name a top level domain name like dot art i'm just running some numbers in my head here let's just say it costs a quarter of a million like you said to set that up and you got 300 000 i don't know what you're charging for per domain i'm sure it's variable um but what if it was just ten dollars that's three million dollars a year and uh and fees and then you're giving some of that back to icann
- Speaker #0
that seems to me like a license to print money well it's a it's a very um capital intensive business up front but then when you turn the corner it can become a very profitable business and dot art is profitable dot club was successful and profitable and we sold the company to godaddy in 2021 um it's a recurring revenue business it's a subscription model so you have to renew that domain name every year so if you build up a sizable base of users and a good percentage of them renew that domain every year, it can become a very nice business.
- Speaker #1
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- Speaker #2
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- Speaker #2
what are there a lot of people that like norm uh and like some of the others that have tens of thousands of domains and then they just kevin kevin you're insulting him there's nobody like norm
- Speaker #0
how are they are there a lot of things like thank you jeff nobody like norm the beard personality the skills there's nobody like norm let's start that question over kevin yes yeah i've i've seen these change people people's lives around we know somebody who'll remain nameless he
- Speaker #1
was homeless he had domains and then he was literally sleeping in his car and he got the knock on the window And one of his domains sold for $250,000, which he invested in real estate. And he's doing quite well right now. Incredible.
- Speaker #0
You hear stories like that all the time. You hear stories of things like maybe a family business, like I'm making this up, but it's similar to a story I heard. Let's say there was a family hardware store that's been in the company, been in the family for a hundred years through generations. And at some point, someone in that family was smart enough to get hardware.com back when it. you know, was very inexpensive and it's been the family brand forever, forever, forever. One day someone knocks on the door like Norm says, and that domain name could be worth millions of dollars and change that family's life, change their future forever. So it's really, it can be very exciting, but it also is like anything, a lot of work. The people like Norm, Kevin, who have a few thousand domains are many.
- Speaker #2
And I think it's a lot more than that.
- Speaker #0
Okay, but who have thousands of domains. There are quite a lot of people who have thousands of domains. There are not as many people who actually earn a really solid living as a full-time domain or in doing just that, right? Because to really make a lot of money, which there are quite a few people who do, it's a lot of work. It's a full-time job. Now, there's benefits because all you need is a computer and an internet connection. So you could be... working anywhere and you have a very flexible schedule, but you really have to pay a lot of attention to managing your portfolio, pricing them, staying on top of offers, staying on top of renewals. It's not just a hobby. You can do it as a hobby, but you're not going to earn a full-time living as a hobby. If you want to earn a full-time living from being a domain investor, you have to treat it very seriously like a real job and really be disciplined in how you approach it.
- Speaker #2
So if you're sitting on a bunch, these people are sitting on a bunch of domains, how do they monetize? Like you said, there's heavy renewal fees. So what's the way a lot of people monetize? Is it throwing ads up on when people land on it? I mean, it used to be Google AdWords, but I think that's kind of gone out of fashion now.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #2
What's the way to, if you're sitting on a thousand domains, what's the way to actually at least cover these annual renewal fees?
- Speaker #0
With sales. I mean, you're right. Back in the heyday, the monetization was a big deal and you could... have some domain names, put up a landing page that was monetized with Google ads and other things. And actually, if it was a popular term that had a lot of search traffic, you could make a lot of money. And there were people making hundreds of thousands of dollars a month off of that parking revenue. But that has dried up as you indicated, Kevin. And now, I mean, most people who have a big portfolio end up selling on an annual basis between one to 2% of their portfolio. So Those sales have to cover. your renewal fees with the rest of the portfolio, and then some, right? So you've got to make sure that you're making enough sales to cover the cost of maintaining your portfolio and then, of course, have money to live on and profit from. So it's a numbers game, really.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's throwing up a web page. You can make it an affiliate site. There's lots of ways, especially now with AI and content, but just make it a useful page. And you can have some backlinks up there. I mean, if you're going to sell a page or if you're going to sell a domain, if you've got something there to sell with it, I mean, I think that's all the better, isn't it, Jeff?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, and I think there are a lot of people who are into developing their domain. So they'll get a domain, they have an idea for a simple business, and they'll develop it, and then they'll sell the whole package, the domain. and the business. And that's another way to generate revenue. So I know a bunch of people, and there are a bunch of people in the domain industry, including some of the well-known domain bloggers who also do that. They come up with an idea, get a great domain for it, develop a website, get it up and running until it's starting to generate a little bit of revenue, and then sell it.
- Speaker #2
And there's people that monitor the domains too. I know, I think Perry Belcher once said this. He has tools that he'll monitor when people go out, they get like a 30-day window or something.
- Speaker #0
and then i'll go snap them up domain expiration drop catching yeah yeah so yes so when domains expire there's a grace period so the person who let it drop there is a window of opportunity where they can um reclaim it you know at no penalty then there's another period of time where they can reclaim it but they have to pay a fee for reclaiming it and then if they let those two periods pass then they lose the domain all together and then it drops and someone else can register it people are using that
- Speaker #2
backlinks too. Like in the SEO, I don't know if this still works as well as it did, but people were looking for domains that had a lot of backlinks to them. Someone just kind of abandons the site and lets it expire, but they grab it and then it still has all these backlinks for SEO purposes. So there's a whole lot of other reasons that people were buying domains too.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. And I think both positive and negative. So sometimes you need to look at the history of a domain name. It may sound like it's a great domain on the surface, but maybe it was abused in the past and has... you know been penalized by google for example and it actually could have a negative impact instead of a positive impact so you've got to do your research so one of the things that i love when we were talking is about your background we haven't even touched on that yet so
- Speaker #1
you've got quite the background especially it's soundproofing you like it yeah it's beautiful background yeah it's great it's in the b movie business and you've
- Speaker #0
put out a book about this can you just give us a little bit of background and then tell us about the uh the book well first of all for the younger generation you have to explain what is a b movie yeah so a b movie is kind of a low budget movie you know back in the days of independent films you know before you know the comic book companies took over hollywood um there are a lot of independent low budget films you know films that were made for a couple of hundred thousand dollars or even less um often a little bit grittier looking um often with not as polished screenplays not as talented actors and actresses but still you know it was a big business and they played in in theaters um and uh you know cult there were cult movies b movies a lot of old horror films a lot of classic films famous ones of that right sorry wasn't blair which one of the ones that broke yeah blair which i mean blair which was even later in the in the heyday of b movies i mean it goes back and you know it goes back to the 50s you know, if not even earlier. But when I started my career after college, I was in the independent film industry in New York City, and eventually went to work for a company called Troma, T-R-O-M-A, which is probably best known for a low budget B movie that became a cult classic, which was called The Toxic Avenger, which some of the listeners may have heard of, even some of the younger listeners may have heard of, because In 1990, 91, we turned it into a Saturday morning cartoon series called The Toxic Crusaders. So there were Saturday morning cartoons and toys and games and pajamas and coloring books and puzzles and all the video games and all the things that came along with a popular kids cartoon show. So Trauma, which actually still exists today, it's just, I think, celebrated their 50th anniversary last year. It's the oldest. running independent film studio in the world at this point, was very well known for making these low-budget action horror films. And the Toxic Avenger, we did three sequels. I worked on two of the sequels, Toxic Avenger Part 2, Toxic Avenger Part 3. There was a Toxic Avenger Part 4. And what's really interesting is this summer... They'll be releasing a remake of the Toxic Avenger starring Peter Dinklage from Game of Thrones as the Toxic Avenger, which should be really interesting. This movie has already been shot. It got very good reviews and a couple of festivals and it's going to be released in theaters. It was just recently announced, I think, in August this summer. So that's pretty interesting. And the Toxic Avenger story, it's a classic hero story. Melvin Junko is a skinny, nerdy mop boy at a local fitness gym in the original movie. He gets pushed out a window when he's being bullied by the gym rats, falls into a vat of toxic waste, and emerges as this hideously deformed creature of superhuman size and strength. He becomes the toxic Avenger, and it's all taking place in Tromaville, New Jersey, which is a fictional town that makes appearances in many Troma films. So it was pretty funny. So the experience of making these wild and crazy films, you know, on a shoestring budget. We started on a shoestring. Eventually, the budgets got bigger. We switched to Velcro. But on a shoestring budget, we made these crazy movies. And I had to learn a lot of good lessons that I've been able to carry forward throughout my career in many different industries. So the book is called Everything I Know About Business and Marketing I Learned from the Toxic Avenger. And it's really these anecdotes from those days. But in each case, I try to tie it into a real. marketing or business lesson that you could apply to any industry, not just the film industry. And it's true, even today, it's interesting with all the talk about cost cutting and what Elon Musk did when he came in and eviscerated the budgets at Twitter and Doge. Now, there's truth to the fact that sometimes when you have very little, you have to be more inventive and more creative. And sometimes even from a business perspective, if you're an entrepreneur, sometimes raising too much money is worse. than not having enough money, right? Because when you don't have enough money, you have to be more efficient. You have to build the right team in a certain way. You have to have processes that don't waste time. You have to stay very focused on what really matters. And that's something that was critical when making an independent film. And I think it's a very good business lesson, right? Sometimes money can't solve every problem and throwing money at it is not always the answer. If we have to film in a certain location and we only have access to that location. for one day, we have to get everything we need in that location on that day. It doesn't matter. We can't come back the next day. The actor's not available. The location's not available. Whatever the reason, you can't fix it by throwing more money at it. You have to make sure that you're organized, that you have a plan, that you have a backup plan, so that everything you need to get on film that day, you're able to get on film that day. So those are good lessons.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's a great read too.
- Speaker #2
Were you producing or were you directing or writing or what was your role on the original?
- Speaker #0
You know, it was a great learning experience because I was involved in all aspects at Troma, everything from international sales to writing and producing. So I was very involved in all aspects of it. On the Toxic Avenger 2 and 3 that I worked on, I was the line producer. So that means you're the producer who's on set every day, making sure everything happens as it needs to happen. It's quite stressful, but quite exciting at the same time. But those lessons, the lessons I learned, what's really interesting, when you're making a film, there's three things that matter more than anything else, or you can't make a film, right? You have to have a camera. Guess what? You can't make a movie without a camera. So you've got to have the camera. You need film in the camera. You can't record something without film. Now, of course, today in the ages of digitals, you need disk space and you need battery life, but you need to have the means to record. And then the third thing is you need actors and actresses to get in front of the camera and tell your story. If you don't have those three things, nothing else matters. It doesn't matter if you have the best written screenplay in the planet. You can't make a movie out of it without a camera, film, and actors. It doesn't matter if you have Steven Spielberg directing. He can't make a movie without a camera, film, or actors. So those are the three things. So you learn to focus on what's really important to get through the day. So... We had to make sure the cameras were there and functioning, right? When you're on location, there's a camera truck that has all that equipment. You have to know where it's parked. You got to make sure it doesn't have a flat tire. You have to make sure that that camera truck is the first thing to show up on set or else you can't get started. The camera's not there, you can't make a movie. Same with the actors and actresses. Even though we were a low budget company, we had a PA, you know, a production assistant in their own vehicle, which was often a junker. go and knock on the door and wake up and bring every actor and actress that was needed that day to the set because we couldn't rely on them getting stuck on a subway or oversleeping or whatever. Because again, if they didn't show up, we can't make the film. So you learn to focus on what's really important. And I think in business, it's very easy to be busy. Many of us spend our days, oh my gosh, I was so busy today. But what did you actually accomplish that moved your business forward? So in the book, I talk about how you need to look at your business. like a filmmaker and say, what are the three things that are essential for my business? What are the things that are the equivalent of the camera, the film, and the actors that I have to focus on every single day to make sure that I'm moving my business forward? So the book is a lot like that. Funny stories from making these silly movies, but finding that nugget that you can apply to any business.
- Speaker #2
So once you have those three foundational things, what is next? I think there's a similarity to business too that a lot of people miss in business is its story it's a hero's journey the that you that really is what resonates in in films um and in business when you can actually tell that story uh and and there's a there's a pattern or rhythm to telling that story that's going to move people to either have an emotional reaction or uh of to enjoy your your film or to have an emotional reaction to to buy or follow you or to do whatever it You see a lot of parallels there too?
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. I mean, storytelling and Norm, even though there's nobody like him, Norm talks about this a lot. You know, the storytelling behind marketing, you know, marketing and sales is a storytelling business, you know, because people don't buy a product, they buy an outcome, right? They buy what they think that product is going to do for them or how it's going to make them feel. And that's the same thing in entertainment. When you think about making a movie. or directing a play. I was a theater major in college, and I'll never forget in my directing class in college, the professor explained to us that when you're directing a play, you want to think about the final moment. When the lights go off and the curtain drops, what is it you want the audience to be feeling at that very particular moment? And then you want to work backwards and make sure that every scene in your play contributes to that moment. And if it's not moving things towards that moment, it probably should be cut. And when you're selling or marketing something, it's the same idea. What is the outcome? What is the emotion? What is it you want the customer to feel and think about the product? And I think, you know, I'm not the first to say this. Many say it all the time. Steve Jobs understood this very well. And the great example was when he first introduced the iPod. The iPod was not the first. mp3 player right there were many other mp3 players there was a popular one called rio that was very popular but all the other mp3 players before the ipod talked about it has a you know a four gigabyte storage space and it transfers speeds at you know blah blah blah and it can do this kind of files and that kind of files and it always talked about the hardware and the technical specs right when the customer didn't care about that stuff all the customer wanted to do is listen to music Steve Jobs understood that. When he introduced the iPod the very first time, he famously took it out of his pocket and said, a thousand songs in your pocket. He didn't say how big the hard drive was. He didn't say how it worked. He didn't say what technology was involved. He spoke right to the outcome for the consumer. What's the outcome of this product? I get a thousand songs in my pocket.
- Speaker #1
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- Speaker #2
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- Speaker #2
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- Speaker #0
right? That's the outcome. So when you're selling, when you're marketing, you want to be understanding the outcome. When we talk to artists about thought art, we talk about how it's going to help them advance their career, how it's going to help them establish themselves as an artist. Not that it's a domain name and you have to connect it here with your DNS settings and all that stuff. That doesn't matter. They care about the outcome. You're always selling an outcome. And storytelling, good storytelling is always focused on that outcome.
- Speaker #2
Well, the dart already gives them the authority to.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, a good domain name definitely creates authority and trust. Absolutely. You know, when you do it. And it's interesting because as we, you know, we hear a lot about crypto now and, you know, Bitcoin and NFTs and Web3. .art domains are actually Web3 capable. So they're the same as an ENS domain like a .eth. So you can have your .art domain, use it for your website, use it for your email, and you can also connect it to .et. your crypto wallet as your wallet address and receive payment through that same domain name which again adds a level of trust if someone goes to your website it's your website and now you say okay you can buy this piece of art and pay me with crypto send that payment to the same domain name the same web address they're
- Speaker #1
going to have that level of trust so trust is a very important part of having a great domain name so jeff you're a branding expert uh we've talked about a variety of different things in the past and i can remember sitting in New Orleans and talking about brand story and how you create, not only did you write the toxic Avenger book, but you've create brand stories for different brands. So everybody gets the buy-in, you create a hero, you create a villain. And I think that's incredible. So an actual story that you can present to either your staff. So they understand exactly who they are, what they are, what the company's all about.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, when I was doing some consulting before, during some of the .club days, but before .art, we, yeah, I would work with a few companies and help them put together as a team, that internal brand story. So this is not like a marketing piece that you share with your customers. It's really an internal story, so that everyone on the team understands, you know, the purpose of the brand and what you're doing. And when you develop that story, and a lot of this is, there's a lot of books about this, you know, building your brand story that are really good. So it's not a new idea. It's not something I created uniquely, but I kind of massaged it, you know, to my own liking. But the idea is that that brand story, most brands make the mistake of thinking the stories about them. No one cares about you or your business. They care about, again, what's in it for them. What's the outcome? So the hero of your brand story always should be your customer, right? Your customer is the hero. And that customer goes through that classic hero's journey. And along the way, it's your team and it's your product or services that help them achieve what they're looking to achieve in their journey. So it's very important. It's never about you. It's about your customer. You know, what's in it for them. That's the most important thing. And that's more true now than ever before because The ability for brands to pop up now is enormous. You know it. You go look at Amazon and how many different brands are selling more or less the same product, right? It's not the brand. It's the product and what it does for the customer. It used to be very complicated to manufacture products, and only big, well-funded corporations could do so. That's no longer the case. Norm, you know this better than anyone. You've got yourself and many clients who are just... coming up with ideas, finding a way to source it, selling it, not even holding inventory in many cases. You can do a lot of stuff on demand now. So the idea of building the brand where it's all about that brand is not as critical as it was today, or it's more critical, but in a different way. Because since all these products are very similar, then you have to find a way to connect with your customer so that they can relate to your brand.
- Speaker #2
in an emotional way that makes them choose your product over some other similar product and that's accomplished in a lot of different ways so what about let's take another concept from the theater you said you were a theater major and and movies i know that the the movie that just won but uh the oscar uh was like a low budget six million dollar i think budget for the nora yeah nora and i think the director uh read that when he got up he's like you know we got to get people back to the theater because everybody's now watching YouTube and Netflix and all this stuff either by yourself or with a couple people in your house. But there's just something about going to the theater, whether it's a stage production or it's a film, and watching with a crowd of people. And I think one of the New York Times writers just recently, she posted she was watching one of the Oscar-related movies. It wasn't the winner. It was one of the other ones. And someone grabbed her, a total stranger, grabbed her next door during an emotional thing. So it's something about the community aspect of sitting in a theater with 200, 300 other people and experiencing something together and going through that emotional roller coaster or whatever the story arc may be. How do you translate that from a marketing and branding point of view to business? Is it communities? How do you do that? Because a lot of marketing is, especially direct marketing, is one-to-one. So what are some ways to translate that experience and that emotional to move the needle in business?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's challenging, right? So absolutely, you can build community online, but it depends on what your business is because not every business needs a community. If you're making and selling toothbrushes, I don't think you need to have a community, right? We all need to brush our teeth and there's not much a community is going to bring to that table. So it really depends on the... the business you're in. I mean, in the dot art world, you know, community is very important to us. It's one of the reasons why we acquired the company Hug in December, right? Because we took over a real active community of artists who are engaged, who are commenting on each other's work, who are looking for open call opportunities. Open calls mean, you know, when a gallery or an art fair or a museum is looking for new artists or looking for a particular type of art, they'll do an open call. People could submit their art and then someone wins the open call and then they get to be in that art fair or in that exhibition or in that gallery. So it's a very engaged community around art and .art. So for us, that's great. We do a lot of webinars and we try to support our community by giving them a platform and a voice. I mentioned the ID.art platform that allows them to share and hopefully monetize and protect their artwork. We also do a regular webinar series called Meet the Dot Artists, where we'll select some artists who use the dot art domain and give them a platform to present themselves and their artwork to a large community. We did an online conference of artists during International Artist Day last October. So we do a lot of things to kind of create that community. But for us, it makes sense because we have a product that's very focused on the art world. And so by encouraging and being a part of that community. it helps our business. Like I said, it's not going to apply to every business. And I think when you think about the return to the movie theater or that feeling you get when you're in a room, I think that's not just movies, it's everything. Look at conferences and live events are coming back now. We all learned a very difficult lesson during the COVID pandemic, which is humans by nature don't like to be cooped up by themselves. We're a tribe, you know, where genetically... a tribe-based species, right? We want to be around others. We need to support each other. We need to have that community. And so I think, you know, since that experience that we all shared, I think you're seeing, you know, conferences are big again. You know, people still do like to convene in the movie theater. Broadway and live performances are still out there. I was in Michigan last week and went to see a play at the local theater. It was wonderful to be in that theater with a group of people. So I think... We want to be part of something that's bigger than ourselves. And that goes back to that brand story. In a brand story, your team should understand the mission of the company, the purpose. Purpose is really important. We perform better at everything when we feel like we're doing it for something bigger than ourselves. So having that purpose, finding that purpose within your company, within your brand. And the purpose can't be to make money. You know, even though, you know. Making money is going to be the end result of having a solid purpose that's something that people can be aligned with and that they can believe in, right? Passion is really important. There's a chapter about this in my book, like, you know, finding something you believe in, in whatever you're doing. You know, many people say, oh, you have to pursue your dreams. That's not always practical, right? Not everyone can do that. Not everyone can find a way to earn a living pursuing one of their dreams. But what everyone can do... is find something to be passionate about no matter what you're doing. The example I give in my book is, you know, we talked a lot about these crappy movies I was making, right? To be honest, I was not particularly a fan of those movies, you know. I worked for Troma for seven and a half years. On a Friday night when I wanted to relax, putting on a Troma movie was probably not the first thing I was going to do, you know. But... I learned to recognize, so I was here, so I was tasked with making and selling these low-budget, arguably campy, crappy movies. And I found that there was an audience for them. You know, we had fans who loved our movies, who were passionately in love with our movies. And so I found my passion around serving those fans, right? I wanted to make the best possible trauma-type movie that I could make, not because I wanted to watch it, but because I knew... our fans wanted to watch it and I wanted to serve our fans. So for me personally, that's where I found my passion and that's where I got excited. And that's why I went to work every day, excited and loved what I was doing, even though what I was doing, you know, it wasn't going to change the world. We weren't curing cancer. We didn't take ourselves too seriously, but we took the business seriously, right? We were in a business to serve our fans the best campy. low budget horror film, we could serve them. And I became very passionate about that. And I believe that whatever you do, whatever career you have, you know, you're going to have moments when you're not in the job that is your favorite thing. But you should find something in it that you can wrap your arms around and be passionate about and fall in love with. And then you'll you'll succeed.
- Speaker #1
Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player, or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of the Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?
- Speaker #2
Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.
- Speaker #2
I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. And we'll just, you can go back and forth with one another. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits.
- Speaker #1
Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm.
- Speaker #2
All right. So I think we're getting to the end here, Mr. Sass.
- Speaker #0
I think I talked too much, right? No,
- Speaker #2
man. It flew by. Flew by. And, you know, we talked about. domains. We don't normally talk about domains, domain marketing, but it's fascinating. And I'm sure our listeners are going to love that. But we do have one question for you. Do you know a misfit?
- Speaker #0
Oh, gosh, I know more misfits than I can shake a misfit at. But before I answer that, Norm, I wanted to give one tip because you mentioned, you know, you don't talk about domains much, but you do talk about e-commerce a lot, right? And you have a lot of... a lot of businesses that actually live on Amazon, for example. And I want to just point out a hack. I talked about earlier that there's a lot of similar products being sold by lots of different brands on Amazon, right? So if someone's looking for something on a marketplace like that, and they're searching for you, even if you got their attention, you ran a social media ad, or they heard of your brand, and now they go search for you, they're going to see all these other results of similar items that could distract them and take them away. Instead, what you should do is have a domain name and redirect that domain name to just your store on Amazon or whatever marketplace it is. And then tell your audience, don't look for me on Amazon. Go to this domain name. And that'll take them to just you on Amazon and they won't be distracted by any other thing. So, for example, my book I mentioned, it's called Everything I Know About Business and Marketing I Learned from the Toxic Avenger. I registered the domain name toxicavenger.marketing. Kevin, there's another long one for you. There's a .marketing. But if you go to toxicavenger.marketing, it will take you right to my book on Amazon. So you don't have to search for me. You don't have to remember what was the name of that. All you have to remember is toxicavenger.marketing, right? So it becomes much easier. So it's a really powerful hack. You don't have to use your domain just for your website. If you have an e-commerce store, if you're on a platform like Amazon, if you have an Instagram page. Same problem. Someone searches for you on Instagram, they see 100 different people first that they might get distracted by. When you use a domain name, you're creating a tunnel, a tunnel that goes right to where you want people to go. So that's just a hack to bring in there before we go. Oh, gosh, Misfits. I know a guy who actually has a company called Misfits. So he would be a good guest on the Misfits. AJ Leon. is his name and he travels the world with a band of merry misfits doing marketing marketing and social good events all over the world he's i don't know where he is now but he's been in africa and thailand and senegal all sorts of unusual places with his merry
- Speaker #2
band of misfit marketers so he'd be someone for you to meet i can make that introduction that's fantastic all right sir well thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today
- Speaker #0
Thank you, Norm. And thank you, Kevin, for having me. And thank you, everyone who's listening. I hope you got something out of this. I've bought out of it.
- Speaker #1
It's been great. I appreciate it.
- Speaker #2
All right. I'm going to remove you. Just stay back there. We'll get right back to you. All right, sir.
- Speaker #1
Norm, I don't know if you can hear it, but I've got a wind tunnel going on. You've been to my house.
- Speaker #2
I could hear it. I didn't know if it was.
- Speaker #1
Flying on my balcony right now, like things are turning over because, you know, I'm between these two buildings and the winds are high today. So it just forces a funnel, just like he said on a website. Toxic Avenger dot marketing forces a funnel and things are flying over. But I have a question, though. How many domain ideas did you have during this podcast?
- Speaker #2
Oh, yeah, there's a bunch. There is a. Yeah. I was thinking, okay, we got to take a look at this. We got to take a look at that. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
No, this is great. This is something that's not always talked about, but it's important. It's fundamental. Like you said, those three fundamental things that apply, this is fundamental. And it's one of the first things that you and I look at when we're starting Dragonfish. We have all these divisions. We're like, okay, can we get the domain for this name? Can we get the domain for this name? And then we go grab it and make sure we secure it. Because it's that fundamentally important. I think people, when they're naming their companies or they're naming their brands, it's an afterthought for a lot of people. And that's not the best way to go about it.
- Speaker #2
Absolutely. And you know, today's podcast, I really didn't think it was going to go down the domain side. Jeff's such an incredible marketer and brander. I thought we were going to stick over there. So hopefully we can have him back on and talk a bit more about those other insights that he has. But I think that's it.
- Speaker #1
hey yeah yeah just say kev well if you if you like this or you want to check out any of the other uh 50 or so episodes that we've done so far we started this podcast april april 30th of 2024. so it's been about coming up on a year depending on when you're listening to this so we've got somewhere around 50 52 in the can every tuesday a brand new one comes out so be sure to check out our youtube channel marketing misfits dot uh
- Speaker #2
it's all it says columbian i got it now yeah yeah yeah not the full columbia just dot co that's yeah dot com soon to be dot e x c o exactly and remember if you want to know more about kevin king go to kevin king doc prick that's right uh you'll
- Speaker #1
see me waving yeah yeah just a little gift you can go bobble what are they called the bottle heads bottle There's something sticking out of it. Oh,
- Speaker #2
so. All right, everyone. I'll see you next Tuesday.
- Speaker #1
All right. Take care.
